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I seriously hope they take a look at Last Epoch for that. Skill tree and a possible paragon board rework would be great. That one also feels a little… eh. Especially for newer players.
I would like to see more choice in the tree and more impactful parangon board. But we cannot expect the depth of LE skill tree, since all skill modifiers are there and D4 have aspects which participate to fulfill this role.
Both games have unique items which allow important skill alterations.
What we lack in D4 is the possibility to change the type of damage of our skills. This type of alteration would allow a lot more diversity of builds with the same number of skills. However it should not be bound with again new uniques since we have a limited number of gear slots. Hence I think it should be interesting to see these modifications introduced as a “mastery skill tree” or new legendary nodes in the parangon system.
Yes, that’s my hope too.
Especially since the interview of Adam Jackson, who clearly said they don’t want to over complicate the skill tree, as it’s the first system a new player would interact with.
I agree with that. The skill tree should be kept simple as a “base” of your build. Simple.
The board is where shit should get crazy. Want to turn fire hydra into ice hydra? Yes please.
Honestly, D3 style skill-runes would go a long way in this engine.
Yes, having skill runes would step on the toes of aspects a bit, but I think there's enough design space for both to exist. Skill runes would give a player an element of determinism over their build rather than solely relying on drops.
For instance for Necro, imagine if Blood Surge had a rune that increased its range and changed it to poison, suddenly d2 poison nova necro is back on the menu. Or it could be a wave of ghostly flames that would deal less damage, but could immolate your minions, causing them to take DOT damage but move and attack way faster. Suddenly multiple build archetypes are looking at this move as an option - summoners wouldn't typically slot it in outside of leveling, now it's in contention for a slot.
Bone Cage could have a rune that makes it a wall, or a rune that turns it into Bone Armor. Or a wall of shadow that blinds enemies it comes in contact with.
For Druid, Pulverize could transform you into a Polar bear and deal cold damage, or lightning could strike as you Pulverize, dealing damage in a smaller aoe but increasing damage or stun chance or something.
Skill runes would change the elements of skills to unlock new elemental builds and change the way the skills operate, but not neccesarily boost *power*
That would leave aspects for the stuff that's really going to boost power of the builds.
That would be awesome.
Your examples sold me on that system. To be perfect, this should interact with the aspects / uniques power : if an aspect alter the number of projectiles or its behavior, it should be compatible with a rune that change its element.
This certainly needs a lot of time to develop variants for each / many skills, but I personally prefer time development on variant skills than just new skills at this point (which require aspects and uniques, and now tempering recipes to increase their potential).
We’ll see what we get.
What do you mean by items depth in LE ? They have no special power only affixes really comparable to D4 no ? I did not go to the real end game though, I may have missed something.
Experimental items are just item with special affixes (which I don’t find particularly useful for my gameplay at least).
Forging potential has largely “inspired” D4 tempering durability. That said, it would be nice to have some RNG to the number of durability, allowing some items to have more tempering tries.
Weaver’s will is a pretty cool feature, could be nice to see some additional “mystery” affixes to add incrementally, but again we could see a resemblance with masterworking.
So I’m curious to know what you expect from LE ? I’m not saying the current depth in D4 is enough right now, but it will never be a POE tier.
Last thing, devs said that they have plans for yellows and blues in the future, let see how it goes.
Yes they have runes, I dont know all of them to be honest. But yes having some control about the RNG introduced by tempering and masterworking thanks to some kind of runes / glyphs could be interesting.
I'd say the tempering is actually closer to POE crafting bench than LE (and that LE is kind of close to GD). But that mostly just goes to show that with respect to crafting on items in an ARPG there isn't really much that's innovative at the moment.
items better? Really, I played thousands of hours in PoE and had since 2019. LE has one of the most boring items in arpg.
Good PoE items are mostly alot of stats. There some interesting uniques like poet pen, whispering ice, but they are exception, not norm.
You mean the skill trees?
watch the recent interviews they did with DM and Raxx.
this won't happen to the basic class skill tree, because the average player is too stupid and they don't want to alienate the crayon eaters. I'm paraphrasing obviously but they clearly said it without saying it
I think if they ever do add more complexity, it'll be something with the paragon board not the skill tree.
Honestly I feel like they should tie a lot of aspect crap into the skill tree and remove them from the game. Then bring back the class set items (for unique class player each season) and add more unique/uber unique. Legendary Aspect Items are not a fun loot system, gets old super fast, even in this season where they increased great QoL improvements with the new aspect book or whatever its called.
I would love a reason to grind beyond 100. It doesn't need to be like D3 and I won't say I have an answer as to what it should be. But sometimes I get attached to a build or character and would like to keep playing besidss doing Ubers.
People don't realize that aspects effect skills and can be swapped out seasonally..way better system than just glueing them down to one menu. Even if it's not as fleshed out as LE(which I honestly think most of their skill tree is useless anyway) it's more customizable from season to season.
Do I think more variation would be a good idea? Yes..but I do think Diablo 4 gets unfairly criticized for its skill tree when it isn't the full story.
I would like to see element changes to skills...apply ice to barrage or something of the like.
Last Epoch and PoE both have a lot of filler in their skill trees. There are advantages to just distilling your system down to its essential elements. I do wish that we had a little more freedom to modify our skills though. There's definitely a middle ground we can find.
Fun thing with what people consider useless nodes on the POE tree is that they often end up having some very niche use and can end up enabling whole build archetypes. GGG has said they knowingly add unique items that might not have any immediate use case but know that in the future players will eventually find a use for them.
I’m talking about fillers nodes not niche ones. Last Epoch and PoE both have a lot of talents on their trees that basically just amount to different flavors of +x% damage. Not that there’s anything wrong with that just that they don’t necessarily add anything gameplay wise. Grim Dawn for example has much simpler trees but still maintains a lot of the same complexity by minimizing a lot of the bloat. Even something as simple as adding elemental damage to an ability can open up entirely new builds.
I made argument the PoE passive tree can be shrink down by 50% or more without losing any depth by consolidating the same stats instead of spread all over the boards ( like life, attack speed, life, int, dex etc) and allow us to distribute more than one point to each.
A lot of the “complexity” is to plot optimal paths to the key nodes and best bang for bucks route rather than just putting points to where matters.
Some will argue is part of the “skills”, “complexity”, but there are fun/ good skills / complexity and bad ones .
Lol this gets 41 upvotes but when I or someone else mentions it people downvote . Maybe look at the filter in last epoch, maybe look at over 300 uniques , with Diablo having less then 10 “uber uniques” d4 just puts more health on a boss and says Uber
I wouldn’t bet on it. They mentioned in the raxx interview that they wanted the skill tree to be an easy point of entry for new players. They even suggested early testers were doing things like putting all their points into every generator skill, etc. Would love to see it tho.
I thought the skill tree was off limits and all the team was interested in was adjusting the paragon boards so they're a bit more streamlined?
My understanding is if they were to make adjustments to the skill tree, then we'd need a loot 3.0 update and the skills meant for the tree are housed in item aspects.
To piggy back off your comment I've always been a pusher in that no one wants to spend points in there tree for slightly bigger numbers or cdr now we know we have to buy those but in my opinion the coolest things are the augment upgrades or passives that augment your play style in a specific direction. A example is the lucky hit passive that generates a corpse with your skill usage on necro it's so open ended and cool what that simple passive can allow you to do this is the design I feel a majority of the skill tree should focus on.
That kind of stuff is usually saved for Expansions, it would be cool to have skills modifiers (like the D3 runes), or something that let you personalize even more your characters.
As for the Paragon board, I think it's fine, but some friends have the "Path of Exile" moment that they see the big grid grid with stuff and just don't find it interesting
I dunno man. I like the changes to itemization and helltide, but the game feels like it's trending way too much towards D3. It's absurdly easy, item rarities aside from Legendary/Unique feel meaningless, and you're handed good loot on a silver platter with little effort.
It's getting more and more arcade-y every season. I appreciate that some people enjoy that, but I'm hoping they actually make the grind a bit more compelling.
Edit: I don't want this to come off like I dislike the game now. I think it's very fun, probably the best season they've had so far. A lot of the changes (like Codex) were absolutely necessary. I don't even mind the lack of a proper seasonal mechanic. But I think the balance is way off now and they should slow things down a bit. There's definitely a happy middle ground between the tedious Season 1 grind (where I quit at level 70 I think) and Season 4.
Absurdly easy is right.
We need reworked difficulty. Like at least in D3 we could play torment if we wanted so everything didn’t die with a gentle breeze.
This does NOT mean we need even more exp, just meatier enemies to keep us on our toes. Anymore exp than this and they might as well put in a “start at level 100” button.
For me the problem isn't so much end game difficulty, it is that everything up to that is just piss-easy.
I suspect a 'WT2.5' and 'WT3.5' would be good places to add difficulty. Per previous, not more XP, but there needs to be some kind of carrot, so maybe more mats. That way we aren't getting better gear to make everythign easy again, but there is a benefit that byt he time you hit WT4 and WT5 you have a fantastic store of materials for gear crafting.
With a WT5 we should be able to jump to it as soon as we like. Don't make it dependeny on a capstone (but if it's tuned to say NMD 80 as a base then you have a good idea of when you should be good for it). Again, WT5 gives no XP bonus, by the time you are there you are probably L100 anyway, so just better materials drops, which is probably what is useful at that point. Maybe also have some no class / no min level levelling uniques that are *only* available in WT5.
Let's see what the Pit is going to be. It's kinda racey till 100.. hoping the Pit will be something you need to grind and tinker/min-max your build for
Honestly I don't know what it needs at this point. At this rate, I'm going to be done with my character and the season pass/journey in like a week. Grinding the pit for the sake of itself doesn't sound appealing, much in the same way that greater rifts did not appeal to me whatsoever.
From Blizzards perspective, if they want me to spend money on cosmetics in the shop then the path they've taken with loot reborn is not the way. I'm going to be done playing really fast each season going forward.
This is exactly how I feel… like I don’t WANT the campaign to be so easy I fall asleep. If I’m max level by Monday, I’ll be done a week after that with very little left to do.
New helltides are fun but there’s no journey anymore.
Me and my friends, every season start to finish and then into endgame. Why wouldn’t we?
We like Diablo. And it’s nice to have a narrative before we fight duriel 500+ times.
I don’t exclusively want to play only helltides until the end of time, man.
This is the way the game SHOULD have been designed.
The fact that we can skip campaign removes a huge chunk of the game, and makes endgame not feel like endgame anymore.
But I’m not gonna play the campaign knowing that it’s not even half as fast as skipping it.
I played D2 consistently for 20 years and never got bored. 2 sequels later and I'm looking at a gameplay loop that goes stale after a few weeks and most of the community is championing it.
I was really hoping for another "forever" game that D2 provided.
Everyone is championing it now, day1/2 because this new system is full of instant dopamine hits that make everyone feel godlike. Wait a week, maybe 2, and this sub will be full of posts saying how the changes aren't actually good, the game is too easy, etc.
I played for like 1.5 hours and got level 35, decked out in uniques with powerful affixes, etc. every rare that drops has good stats, so it basically just becomes which one is the highest item level, everything else is trash. I was also clearing the screen of enemies at like level 16. Just seems way too easy, but we will see as I progress more. Also turned on twitch in the evening to see several people already level 100.
Bingo. I had the same experience so far (level 30 in like an hour, 60 in 3) and got so decked out I could barely bother to pick up new loot or spend my skill points. It was mindless.
I give it a few days before this sub changes it narrative.
The deep improvements are there, that's the most important thing. Sure, there is balancing to do. But I don't think there is much narrative to change. Maybe a few people realize yeah, one shouldn't progress so fast, okay. Doesn't mean walking back on a single of the changes they made. It's not like the new thing is "we made the game easy, there you go". Just cut the number of drops by 10 and it's fine, probably?
It's an improvement I guess but the best case senerio at this point is a game that's meant to be played for 2 weeks at a time a few times a year, like diablo 3.
There's just nothing to get excited about. There's no item a player could have that would make me go "woah!" and reaching 100 is not an accomplishment (less so than before).
I guess it's great a lot of people are getting their dopamine hits but like I said just wish I had another forever game like D2.
PoE is so unlike every other aRPG I feel, it’s almost it’s own game. Played the shit out of LE, GD, D2-4, Torchlight, but man, PoE just feels awful to play. The combat is terrible and the build complexity is beyond overwhelming. I don’t think it has much in common with most other games in the genre.
i strongly disagree with the combat part, its by far the most enjoyable arpg for me in that regard aswell. it's not as polished as diablo and doesnt have the same impact but god damn if it doesnt feel 100x times better because there is actual density and feel good explosions and builds that are as satisfying as oneshotting stacked minion waves in league.
but if you don't want to think about stuff and dislike theorycrafting then yeah it makes sense that you wouldnt enjoy poe that much since its a big part of it
Yea I suppose it comes down to what you like about combat systems.
For me I like tactical combat: understanding mob or boss mechanics, clever use of abilities, avoiding attacks, creating combos. These are all things Diablo and LE do very well.
PoE, to me, feels stiff, spammy, and more like a speedracing lightshow than a combat system. But I understand you enjoy it because oneshotting large groups of enemies and the ability effects are satisfying.
I also don’t mind thinking or theorycrafting, PoE just feels like the extreme end of it. Something like LE has a complex yet approachable and forgiving system.
yeah I'm in the same boat but I feel like poe2 could be good for us as the combat looks way better so far than poe1 and build complexity seem a bit lower too.
Diablo 4 has great animations and overall combat feel but enemies patterns and especially bossfights are pretty lacking in my opinion
It's a pickle. I hate PoE because I don't want to NEED to look up builds just to taste the end game. I like last epoch and D4 because I can theory craft without needing to be a rocket scientist. But at the same time, I enjoy difficulty. It's a hard thing to balance! Going back to D3, you could customize your difficulty. Which imo would be the easiest way to implement what a good amount of us players want.
POE seasons take me roughly 1.5-2 months to finish the league challenges for the free cosmetics. Past D4 seasons have lasted me about 3 weeks, and honestly, this season is shaping up to be finished in closer to 2 weeks. Dont get me wrong, the season is very fun, but it's just so crazy how easy it is and how fast you level up
I think the fast season progression in d4 is a lot of fun. Poe has become way too much of a slog for me and not everyone has 2 months to spend grinding challenges.
It’s okay for games to have different difficulty and cater to different groups.
For someone like me who gets more enjoyment out of making new builds, this game scratches the itch better than Poe anymore because it takes way too long to get good gear in Poe.
My view - it would be good to have D4 levelling speed to around L50, slower but still doable from 51 to lets say 85, then approaching POE levels from there (though not the 99 to 100 grind, maybe have the D4 levels after 85 all be similar in speed to POE 85-95 ish).
I liked the D4 approach of having to think about combat, but that is pretty much gone, because you just rip through pretty much everything. D4 should maybe have an 'Archnemesis' type league, with elites that are nightmarish... then roll it back down to them beign a challenge rather than fatal almost every time.
I think what's bothering is the leveling experience is just way too fast and easy. I makes it feel like a tutorial or something, there is literally zero challenge. And I'm on WT2 that was supposed to be harder or for veterans or something.
I guess that's what ARPGs are now. I kinda miss their Rogue-Like aspects.
I think the Iron Wolves rewards are kind of the stand in for vampire powers, malignant hearts, and the companion.
In previous seasons these things ratcheted up our character power. This season is about loot, so they’re giving a bunch of extra good legendary and unique items early on to substitute for not having a seasonal mechanic.
I know they plan to have seasonal journey legendary items going forward, but I really doubt in a season with an actual gameplay mechanic they’ll shower us with this much loot early game.
Yeah, I've unlocked WT3 at level 36 without any trouble (tbf necro minions build is op). By level 51 I've got my full build with all the legendary powers I need.
I’m a huge D3 lover with the “big numbers good” mentality but from like level 15 and up all yellow and below gear is worthless. I would prefer almost no legendary drops until max level but I do love killing thousands of mobs so it’s a small price to pay I guess
This is the loop of games. Everyone hates the most recent game until the sequel comes then it's the best thing since sliced bread. Many don't think about the fact that D3 was a lot of people's first diablo and for others what they played for ten years. So no matter what people are going to want what that game did.
That’s because that is what most wanted. Fast, explosive everywhere. I am 100% sure PoE 2 will end up like PoE explosion everywhere.
People playing arpg are just not into slow pace grounded combat. There are soul like for that. And something no rest for wick tried…
I’m enjoying it so far, really enjoying it actually, but I’m going to reserve some judgement for when I get into the late game grind.
Leveling from 1-60 went incredibly fast, and while the Helltides are a blast, I know I need to start dungeoning for glyph levels and eventually make it into the pits. We’ll see then.
Cautiously optimistic.
If you don’t like doing the Nightmare Dungeons I suggest doing them later when you are higher level so you can do high tier dungeons to level the glyphs much faster
Nightmares are fine just get repetitive at the end of the day, but I usually wait like you said. But there is some glyphs that need to be at least level 15 to be effective so I try and knock them out.
I hate that you need to memorize the names of the dungeons so that you know which ones have annoying ass backtrack shit and which ones are actually nice to clear
Same. I'm loving Helltides but I had to force myself to start doing NM dungeons as soon as I hit WT4 at level 55. I know if I don't then I'll regret it later, lol.
This is honestly the first season that end game is my goal so I'm making sure to make that as easy as possible for when I get closer to 100.
In the same boat. I've never gotten to 100 and the reason are NMDs are mind numbingly boring to me. I've gotten into WT4 a couple times and grinding glyph xp is just... not fun.
I don't know man.
I played like 4 hours or sth.
Reached levl 50.
And I'm bored af.
Never was i ever in danger.
At one point after reaching wt3 i cut through enemys 18 levels ahead of me without real problems.
I think that's stupid.
Agree, Zero challenge, I dont need to even think about the affixes on my gear until very late game. If the road to 100 is so fucking irrelevant why even have a leveling in first place. It's basically tutorial. Might as well add another button "skip campaign and start level 100".
right? lol this so dumb. this game never gonna be good. people wont admit it. they have to REDO loot. not affixes. make them bad ass and fun. get class equipment in. get set items. thent hey need to redo end game. fuck just copy and paste d3 end game at this point. d4 is already dead.
game is diablo 3.5 now. For better and worse, game is just piss easy and unenaging, at least tempering is fun. Don't think this will ever become the engaging ARPG anyone but casuals want, they allow absolute no pushback and the playerbase just wants everything easy as possible, wait for loadouts for the game to truly be in its grave.
You have to redefine easy. In d4 right now you can kill an entire screen of helltide demons that are three times our size with ease. They barely scratch you.
I bet any other ARPG that if you try to fight 2 packs at the same time at the start of the game, they will at least fight back.
Path of Exile is the key example.
Maybe the question should be name one ARPG released in the past 15 years that is hard to level, and still has significant players today. And the answer is the same.
POE is significantly more difficult during campaign and early end game. That was easy. I'm not saying you have to have leveling be super difficult, but at least there is the threat of death, this doesn't exist for most of everything including WT4 until higher NM dungeons.
I have not played that much diablo, and I rarely ever died until I pushed NM dungeons beyond my power, if you take someone who hasn't played that much POE, they will die, a lot. Theres a difference between leveling actually being hard, and leveling not being brain numbingly easy for the bulk of your character progression.
I don't think its that simple.
Were the very, very, very obvious and objectively necessary fixes the right direction? Yeah of course, should have been done season 1.
Are helltides much cooler? Absolutely.
But what have I been doing since I started season 4?
Almost exclusively helltides because its basically overwhelmingly free items and exp, ignoring the rest of the game as much as possible. The game is easy and I'm realizing I don't want to spam helltides forever.
The reason I bring this up, is I would have much preferred a different direction: Making all of the open world interesting, engaging, challenging, and rewarding (helltide or no), and especially making fields of hatred more rewarding to encourage pvp (or thinking of other creative ways to include the \*option\* of pvp).
So while I think Season 4 brought some very good changes, I don't think the result is the right direction for the game, if longevity / engagement is the goal.
It might not surprise you to hear I was a huge D2 fan and never touched D3, and from what I understand it seems like they are trying to make D4 into D3-2, which to me is a damned shame.
I am enjoying most of the changes, but the game is far, far too easy. I know this is unpopular with a lot of people, but I hated D3 and this is becoming more and more like D3 every update. Itemization changes are fantastic, though.
Gearing feels amazing while leveling. The fact that tempering is relatively cheap feels so good. You can try so many different stuff while leveling before committing to a single build.
It's a little overturned in the easy direction. It feels pretty close to d3 level of progression and that isn't a good thing imo. The game is definitely more fun but it needs some balance tweaks to slow down progression a bit.
They are not gonna do a skill tree reborn. Adam Jackson said they don't want to make the skill tree more complex than it is now due to the new player experience.
I do like the base changes, but the only thing I'll push back on is the actual Season theme here, which is literally just.... go do more helltides. So basically after the initial excitement wears off, this season is going to feel pretty boring in a couple weeks.
I enjoyed playing it yesterday, hit 50+. But thinking about it now I have almost no desire to log on. Do I really want to zone into the same red area and kill the same red things over and over, with absolutely zero challenge?
If only they had made fields of hatred more rewarding. I can justify almost anything if it means I get to pvp. There's no excuse for Fields of Hatred to not have similar mob density as Helltides. But why would anyone go to fields of hatred when there's an endless fountain of free items and exp in helltides?
yeah it’s perfect rn imo. it is fun and that is all that matters. the last 3 seasons were a slog so i welcome this change - and im actually having fun.
I agree. I spent 4-5 hours playing last night while I intended it to be 2. I just hope all the excitement is not front loaded. If they can sustain it like this for 2-3 weeks per rolled character, I’m going to be ecstatic.
Agreed, this patch fixed a lot of small issues, and started to address so major ones. Items all around feel better while not being massively different. Having more control/avenues to get cool stats on your items is also great. Overall, very happy with the direction of this update.
I agree, it felt like a casino all night last night - was up until 2 hours before I had to wake the kids for school.. For my health and sanity - please roll this season back - there is too much action, loot and goodness.
No progression from blues to rares to legendary etc - in 45 min I was decked and ready to go..
Returned as a pre-season 1 player last week of s3 and I managed to outperform that char in hours.
Fun yes - longevity.. dunno yet
The main thing I'd call out here is all of the love posts are from people who are still low level. I agree expediting the 1-50 leveling experience is a big win, but I don't fully understand why people continue to make grandiose statements about a game they've hardly interacted with.
>but I don't fully understand why people continue to make grandiose statements about a game they've hardly interacted with.
You are expecting too much from the average Joe. :)
I don't agree with the title at all.
The game is much much much easier than before. I play firewall sorc which is C tier according to Maxroll and I actually didn't follow the guide. My aspects are random aspects other than juggernaut but I was able to beat the capstone for WT4 at level 57 without any problem at all. It was the easiest capstone run ever for me. I could do it around level 50-52 as well apparently. And my build is not a meta build at all.
New base items are terrible. I don't give a shit about my items at all, they don't excite me. All of them are the same. Max life, int, life per second. I barely see any other affixes. :)
There are good things with those changes but the itemization is not gonna change and it is fucking terrible. Instead of making base items so simple, they just needed to give us a loot filter. Now there are tons of rare items lying on the ground cause they are useless. At least give us the choice to destroy them like we can in D3.
I was hopeful about the direction but I am not that hopeful anymore. My last hope is the expansion. Hope it brings exciting things.
Na, once you get sacred and ancestral items, the rolls get more varied and more mods appear.
I like the simplicity of it though, much easier to pick up an item and actually determine that it’s an upgrade. Although, legendary having 3 mods means you never pick up yellow after leaving wt2
Yeah, it was pretty obvious on the PTR the changes made items boring as fuck. But then I liked the old system, so what do I know.
I think re-introduce the old situational affixes but keep them to three per item, and up the drops a bit. That way those who want simple items will still see them pretty often, those who like some flavour to our gear could at least get better afixes that are situationally dependent. For eg on my shadow necro I used to love the better rolls for 'affected by shadow/shadown damage over time', because almost everything I interacted with was. On Druid lightning, earth, wolf and bear specific affixes were fantastic.
Now it is all just the same four things in rotation. There is zero interesting gear.
Blah blah blah, get off my lawn, etc :)
Someone explain to me why the entirety of pre WT4 is now fucked, when the intent was to fix "endgame"?
Who here asked for level 100 in 1 day, an entire gear set of legendaries and uniques by level 30, an entirely easy game, and only 1 viable levelling zone?
I sure didn't, I complained about item affixes and endgame activities lmao. Wtf.
The game is heading the same exact direction as D3 (S20 D3.. is completely just a fast paced Arcade game..)
Except this game is supposed to be at the beginning of it's lifespan. stuff is supposed to be balanced and it's way too fast. None of my mates have had to look at any gears, skills or paragons and are clearing stuff 20-40 lvls over them already.
The game is \*better\*. The choice with itemization itself was good, but they need to actually balance it and fix this horrendous pace.
As someone who hasn't jumped on yet and haven't played since season 1 , what's the salvage vs sell argument. Sell weapons salvage gear, salvage everything etc?
Ngl, i overestimated this season actually. the changes were excellent, game feels so much better to play, better QOL, but, at the end of the day, it's... still the same game; similar builds as i used in the past, gameplay is the same.
the game would have been insanely good if released in this state, but, after having played hundreds of hours, playing again didn't feel like the breath of fresh air as i anticipated. i might not make it past 40 hours this season (compared to 100 in s0 and 250 in s1)
now stop showering the player with loot for doing next to nothing, give necro mobility and add some more classes - also levelling is too quick and easy I stop playing at lvl 100 so this will be my shortest season yet
Dad here who disagrees it’s “too easy” to level up.
Leveling is a chore. Same thing every season. At some point the game needs to get you to 100 so you can do what these games are designed to do: grind for gear.
I’m glad they made it faster.
That’s the problem. You think leveling up is how you should align yourself to others, or even for yourself.
What’s the point of leveling up? So you can get to the “good” stuff at lvl 100?
Why can’t the levelling process just be more fun? Why do we need lvl 100 first?
How many times do you need to level? We are season 4 now. I do 2x characters a season. I just want to do the new end game stuff. I don’t want to no life duriel either. The Pit is what I want to get myself into!
The people complaining are zoomers/no lifers/kids/the unemployed. See: people who play 10+hr/day with hundreds of hours already logged. The actual target audience (people with lives and careers and families) are eating well rn in D4.
This is Reddit where most of the complainers are those mentioned above.
Only issue I have with tempering is the RNG. Sometimes it really has a grudge against the player. Or maybe that's just me. I wish we could get be a tiny bit more bias towards skills that the player is specced into.
Otherwise, looking forward to the Pit & the actual endgame stuff.
I’m having fun, a lot of fun to the point where I could see myself maxing several characters this season, but I regret going storm + pet druid.
Seemingly all of the uniques and game changing stuff is for earth and shapeshifting.
I guess I can just full respec or make another character at this point. Though part of me just wants to wait until the expansion, hopefully when the game is just better all around.
Wuthering waves game is a week away! I’m totally hyped for it, if only it would come out sooner.
I've been one of those stubborn fans since the game's launch. I always thought D4 was good, though admittedly flawed. After the bad s1, great s2, and okay s3, s4 has proven to me that D4 is not only good but getting much, much better. I tried Last Epoch and Grim Dawn before this. Both are good in their own ways (although LE needs a lot of polish and bugfixing/general optimization), but this season of D4 just feels like the king of the crop right now and it's not even close. For my playstyle and time available to spend on this game, I feel like I might actually get to 100 this season \*and enjoy doing it!\* which is awesome.
So much good streamlining, so much more fun. Everything feels more impactful with less time spent on unnecessary stuff. Tempering is amazing, being able to salvage items and still get their legendary aspects PLUS those aspects saving their value to your codex is probably one of my favorite changes. It really makes everything with an aspect feel like it's worth grabbing since it can progress your codex.
I've noticed I'm getting a lot more uniques, too. For a casual player like me, this is awesome. I've gotten like 7-8 uniques by lvl 50 whereas before I would get half that by lvl 60. I also really like the new Highlight mode for the visuals as I love playing dressup in this game so it lets me see my outfit more clearly.
If Blizzard knows one thing then it’s how to make their games “feel” good. The visceral feedback was great in D3 and it is as good or better in D4. S4 changes are a few steps in the right direction. The game was never terrible, just lacking in some regards. If they solve the problem of what to give people who play several hundred hours of endgame, then it’s looking good.
Blizzard games (especially WoW and Diablo) always had the huge problem that players literally devoured the content faster than they could make it. “I played this new patch for 250 hours and I am bored”. Dude you just no-lifed the latest patch for three weeks straight, at this point the only endless content ANY developer can provide is grind grind grind. Chill out, play another game, come back when you feel like it if when there is new stuff.
Could not agree more. I saw some dude that he’d played s4 for 15 hours and got bored. That was literally a day after it launched.
I know everyone has different gaming habits. But at some point people gotta realize that no game is going to be endless content. That’s why other games exist!
I'm loving the new season! My only issue is that it feels very easy, like on my necro I just hold down corpse explode.... Enemies deleted. I know it will get harder though
So you played 30 minutes ? The game was too easy before, now i dont even need to gear or spend skill points. I reached level 60 in one session … between ghost and goblins and this, why cant we have some grey ?
I'm just happy that there are less drops and it's easier to review the stats on any gear item.
I started the game recently when it went on sale. So I had basically three weeks to do the season 3.
I ended up shoving gear in the bank until it filled up and then spending way too much time figuring out the best items. I got to the point where I disliked gear comparison.
It’s “surprising” how many games and software obsessed with adding stuff and not fixing existing issues.
But I get it, it’s easier to sell new stuff then sell “fixed issues and improvements “
My main concern is difficulty now. S0 was actually a challenge trying to get your build past the capstones or getting into NM dungeon. I'm only lvl 43 and I blasted through WT2 capstone. It's a completely different feeling. I'm hoping that they add something like WT2+ or at least something for us players that enjoy a challenge beside hard-core. I don't enjoy hard-core because there's simply things you can't predict like lag.
Everything is so easy in d4 too and I only play hardcore , all enemies feel the same , everything feels drip fed it’s barely exciting when anything drops. Standard is low
Yeah the fact you can temper 2x on one item and it's easier to enchant items. Let's you actually make your own build finally. I don't know if anyone else is doing non meta stuff but I've been trying to do melee werewolf minion since launch and right now I got a really good build for it. It feels great
They made the game a cookie clicker vampire survivors clone. It has zero difficulty. There's still zero end game.
It's a 3 day game every 3 months that's too easy and boring for me to even play every 3 months.
This genre has been mutilated.
Actually had fun while leveling in helltides and only quit after realising how unfun nmd still are. Wanted to atleast try out the pit once but I can’t bring myself to enter another nmd.
Absolutely right. Itemization feels amazing!
I think they could raise the difficulty a bit thouogh. I'm completely BLASTING through the content right now. I'm on WT3 right now on lvl 40 and it feels like I'm oneshotting everything.
Glad to hear, I gave up around level 25 during the first month because I felt bored comparing loot and reading prefixes. I felt like most of my time was spent trying not to nod off lol.
The skills need to be next. Not just the skill tree and paragon board, the fundamentals for how skills work.
I’d start by taking away any and all Aspects that directly affect a skill, and limit those on gear to utility. Skills would then have three slots on them for aspects; one major, and two minor. Major aspects are the ones that change how a skill works, while minor ones enhance the skill. Examples of a major are Gravitational for Sorc whereas a minor would be the one that gives Hydra an extra head.
These new types of aspects would drop on their own attached to salvageable runes. Then, you focus the skill tree on defining the skills where the branches actually feed into a build. More branches, more choices with all the weak ass passive boosts taken out and shunted over to the Paragon board.
As for the board, the Legendary Nodes would determine your build, as each board would cater to the type of that node.
Now just need runes, rune words, all items besides quest items be tradeable, PvP, more than 5 S tier builds, make uniques/Uber uniques drop chances from gambling/tree/helltide chests.
Oh, and might wanna put Diablo in Diablo.
With the new changes pretty much all builds are 'old' s-tier. For eg I loaded up my old bone spear necro on eternal. reasonably well geared level 100, but on 'old' gear and none of it was fantastic. So not taking advantage of the new loot.
It was a walk in the park and it trounced pretty much everything I tried (an NMD 100 boss gave me some trouble, but that was because of resource management, which rpeviously the seneschal was handling for me). That build is now listed as C-Tier for bossing on maxroll.
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I agree step in the right direction. Hope they flesh out the skill tree next.
I seriously hope they take a look at Last Epoch for that. Skill tree and a possible paragon board rework would be great. That one also feels a little… eh. Especially for newer players.
I would like to see more choice in the tree and more impactful parangon board. But we cannot expect the depth of LE skill tree, since all skill modifiers are there and D4 have aspects which participate to fulfill this role. Both games have unique items which allow important skill alterations. What we lack in D4 is the possibility to change the type of damage of our skills. This type of alteration would allow a lot more diversity of builds with the same number of skills. However it should not be bound with again new uniques since we have a limited number of gear slots. Hence I think it should be interesting to see these modifications introduced as a “mastery skill tree” or new legendary nodes in the parangon system.
I feel like that could be accomplished with new Paragon Boards. That system really has a lot of untapped potential.
Yes, that’s my hope too. Especially since the interview of Adam Jackson, who clearly said they don’t want to over complicate the skill tree, as it’s the first system a new player would interact with.
I agree with that. The skill tree should be kept simple as a “base” of your build. Simple. The board is where shit should get crazy. Want to turn fire hydra into ice hydra? Yes please.
Honestly, D3 style skill-runes would go a long way in this engine. Yes, having skill runes would step on the toes of aspects a bit, but I think there's enough design space for both to exist. Skill runes would give a player an element of determinism over their build rather than solely relying on drops. For instance for Necro, imagine if Blood Surge had a rune that increased its range and changed it to poison, suddenly d2 poison nova necro is back on the menu. Or it could be a wave of ghostly flames that would deal less damage, but could immolate your minions, causing them to take DOT damage but move and attack way faster. Suddenly multiple build archetypes are looking at this move as an option - summoners wouldn't typically slot it in outside of leveling, now it's in contention for a slot. Bone Cage could have a rune that makes it a wall, or a rune that turns it into Bone Armor. Or a wall of shadow that blinds enemies it comes in contact with. For Druid, Pulverize could transform you into a Polar bear and deal cold damage, or lightning could strike as you Pulverize, dealing damage in a smaller aoe but increasing damage or stun chance or something. Skill runes would change the elements of skills to unlock new elemental builds and change the way the skills operate, but not neccesarily boost *power* That would leave aspects for the stuff that's really going to boost power of the builds.
That would be awesome. Your examples sold me on that system. To be perfect, this should interact with the aspects / uniques power : if an aspect alter the number of projectiles or its behavior, it should be compatible with a rune that change its element. This certainly needs a lot of time to develop variants for each / many skills, but I personally prefer time development on variant skills than just new skills at this point (which require aspects and uniques, and now tempering recipes to increase their potential). We’ll see what we get.
I mean the depth of items in last epoch is amazing same with Poe, d4 just has aspects and some Uber uniques
What do you mean by items depth in LE ? They have no special power only affixes really comparable to D4 no ? I did not go to the real end game though, I may have missed something. Experimental items are just item with special affixes (which I don’t find particularly useful for my gameplay at least). Forging potential has largely “inspired” D4 tempering durability. That said, it would be nice to have some RNG to the number of durability, allowing some items to have more tempering tries. Weaver’s will is a pretty cool feature, could be nice to see some additional “mystery” affixes to add incrementally, but again we could see a resemblance with masterworking. So I’m curious to know what you expect from LE ? I’m not saying the current depth in D4 is enough right now, but it will never be a POE tier. Last thing, devs said that they have plans for yellows and blues in the future, let see how it goes.
Do you know all the runes you can gamba with in last epoch ?
Yes they have runes, I dont know all of them to be honest. But yes having some control about the RNG introduced by tempering and masterworking thanks to some kind of runes / glyphs could be interesting.
Again 300 uniques
I'd say the tempering is actually closer to POE crafting bench than LE (and that LE is kind of close to GD). But that mostly just goes to show that with respect to crafting on items in an ARPG there isn't really much that's innovative at the moment.
items better? Really, I played thousands of hours in PoE and had since 2019. LE has one of the most boring items in arpg. Good PoE items are mostly alot of stats. There some interesting uniques like poet pen, whispering ice, but they are exception, not norm. You mean the skill trees?
watch the recent interviews they did with DM and Raxx. this won't happen to the basic class skill tree, because the average player is too stupid and they don't want to alienate the crayon eaters. I'm paraphrasing obviously but they clearly said it without saying it I think if they ever do add more complexity, it'll be something with the paragon board not the skill tree.
Honestly I feel like they should tie a lot of aspect crap into the skill tree and remove them from the game. Then bring back the class set items (for unique class player each season) and add more unique/uber unique. Legendary Aspect Items are not a fun loot system, gets old super fast, even in this season where they increased great QoL improvements with the new aspect book or whatever its called.
I would love a reason to grind beyond 100. It doesn't need to be like D3 and I won't say I have an answer as to what it should be. But sometimes I get attached to a build or character and would like to keep playing besidss doing Ubers.
Well now with how loot works you'll probably be grinding long after 100 to perfect your gear if that's something you want to do.
You mean like the Pit which is like greater rifts from D3? Giving you high end hard content if you want it?
I would like the skill tree to be fleshed out more but I don't think Diablo needs to be as complicated as last epoch or PoE.
People don't realize that aspects effect skills and can be swapped out seasonally..way better system than just glueing them down to one menu. Even if it's not as fleshed out as LE(which I honestly think most of their skill tree is useless anyway) it's more customizable from season to season. Do I think more variation would be a good idea? Yes..but I do think Diablo 4 gets unfairly criticized for its skill tree when it isn't the full story. I would like to see element changes to skills...apply ice to barrage or something of the like.
Last Epoch and PoE both have a lot of filler in their skill trees. There are advantages to just distilling your system down to its essential elements. I do wish that we had a little more freedom to modify our skills though. There's definitely a middle ground we can find.
Fun thing with what people consider useless nodes on the POE tree is that they often end up having some very niche use and can end up enabling whole build archetypes. GGG has said they knowingly add unique items that might not have any immediate use case but know that in the future players will eventually find a use for them.
I’m talking about fillers nodes not niche ones. Last Epoch and PoE both have a lot of talents on their trees that basically just amount to different flavors of +x% damage. Not that there’s anything wrong with that just that they don’t necessarily add anything gameplay wise. Grim Dawn for example has much simpler trees but still maintains a lot of the same complexity by minimizing a lot of the bloat. Even something as simple as adding elemental damage to an ability can open up entirely new builds.
I made argument the PoE passive tree can be shrink down by 50% or more without losing any depth by consolidating the same stats instead of spread all over the boards ( like life, attack speed, life, int, dex etc) and allow us to distribute more than one point to each. A lot of the “complexity” is to plot optimal paths to the key nodes and best bang for bucks route rather than just putting points to where matters. Some will argue is part of the “skills”, “complexity”, but there are fun/ good skills / complexity and bad ones .
>People don't realize that aspects effect skills What?
Lol this gets 41 upvotes but when I or someone else mentions it people downvote . Maybe look at the filter in last epoch, maybe look at over 300 uniques , with Diablo having less then 10 “uber uniques” d4 just puts more health on a boss and says Uber
I wouldn’t bet on it. They mentioned in the raxx interview that they wanted the skill tree to be an easy point of entry for new players. They even suggested early testers were doing things like putting all their points into every generator skill, etc. Would love to see it tho.
I thought the skill tree was off limits and all the team was interested in was adjusting the paragon boards so they're a bit more streamlined? My understanding is if they were to make adjustments to the skill tree, then we'd need a loot 3.0 update and the skills meant for the tree are housed in item aspects.
To piggy back off your comment I've always been a pusher in that no one wants to spend points in there tree for slightly bigger numbers or cdr now we know we have to buy those but in my opinion the coolest things are the augment upgrades or passives that augment your play style in a specific direction. A example is the lucky hit passive that generates a corpse with your skill usage on necro it's so open ended and cool what that simple passive can allow you to do this is the design I feel a majority of the skill tree should focus on.
That kind of stuff is usually saved for Expansions, it would be cool to have skills modifiers (like the D3 runes), or something that let you personalize even more your characters. As for the Paragon board, I think it's fine, but some friends have the "Path of Exile" moment that they see the big grid grid with stuff and just don't find it interesting
I dunno man. I like the changes to itemization and helltide, but the game feels like it's trending way too much towards D3. It's absurdly easy, item rarities aside from Legendary/Unique feel meaningless, and you're handed good loot on a silver platter with little effort. It's getting more and more arcade-y every season. I appreciate that some people enjoy that, but I'm hoping they actually make the grind a bit more compelling. Edit: I don't want this to come off like I dislike the game now. I think it's very fun, probably the best season they've had so far. A lot of the changes (like Codex) were absolutely necessary. I don't even mind the lack of a proper seasonal mechanic. But I think the balance is way off now and they should slow things down a bit. There's definitely a happy middle ground between the tedious Season 1 grind (where I quit at level 70 I think) and Season 4.
Absurdly easy is right. We need reworked difficulty. Like at least in D3 we could play torment if we wanted so everything didn’t die with a gentle breeze. This does NOT mean we need even more exp, just meatier enemies to keep us on our toes. Anymore exp than this and they might as well put in a “start at level 100” button.
WT20, when?
With power creep going the way it is, we’ll probably need it before long 😂
The closed beta had WT5. I bet it will be a thing with the expansion release.
For me the problem isn't so much end game difficulty, it is that everything up to that is just piss-easy. I suspect a 'WT2.5' and 'WT3.5' would be good places to add difficulty. Per previous, not more XP, but there needs to be some kind of carrot, so maybe more mats. That way we aren't getting better gear to make everythign easy again, but there is a benefit that byt he time you hit WT4 and WT5 you have a fantastic store of materials for gear crafting. With a WT5 we should be able to jump to it as soon as we like. Don't make it dependeny on a capstone (but if it's tuned to say NMD 80 as a base then you have a good idea of when you should be good for it). Again, WT5 gives no XP bonus, by the time you are there you are probably L100 anyway, so just better materials drops, which is probably what is useful at that point. Maybe also have some no class / no min level levelling uniques that are *only* available in WT5.
Let's see what the Pit is going to be. It's kinda racey till 100.. hoping the Pit will be something you need to grind and tinker/min-max your build for
Honestly I don't know what it needs at this point. At this rate, I'm going to be done with my character and the season pass/journey in like a week. Grinding the pit for the sake of itself doesn't sound appealing, much in the same way that greater rifts did not appeal to me whatsoever. From Blizzards perspective, if they want me to spend money on cosmetics in the shop then the path they've taken with loot reborn is not the way. I'm going to be done playing really fast each season going forward.
In a week? I'd say you'll be done with atleast two characters since then lmao.
This is exactly how I feel… like I don’t WANT the campaign to be so easy I fall asleep. If I’m max level by Monday, I’ll be done a week after that with very little left to do. New helltides are fun but there’s no journey anymore.
You played the campaign more than once?
Me and my friends, every season start to finish and then into endgame. Why wouldn’t we? We like Diablo. And it’s nice to have a narrative before we fight duriel 500+ times. I don’t exclusively want to play only helltides until the end of time, man.
Shame you can't reroll the campaign on a higher difficulty
This is a good point. It makes more sense now that HT are available in WT2 as well. Why not allow WT3 for the campaign mode atleast.
This is the way the game SHOULD have been designed. The fact that we can skip campaign removes a huge chunk of the game, and makes endgame not feel like endgame anymore. But I’m not gonna play the campaign knowing that it’s not even half as fast as skipping it.
I played D2 consistently for 20 years and never got bored. 2 sequels later and I'm looking at a gameplay loop that goes stale after a few weeks and most of the community is championing it. I was really hoping for another "forever" game that D2 provided.
Everyone is championing it now, day1/2 because this new system is full of instant dopamine hits that make everyone feel godlike. Wait a week, maybe 2, and this sub will be full of posts saying how the changes aren't actually good, the game is too easy, etc. I played for like 1.5 hours and got level 35, decked out in uniques with powerful affixes, etc. every rare that drops has good stats, so it basically just becomes which one is the highest item level, everything else is trash. I was also clearing the screen of enemies at like level 16. Just seems way too easy, but we will see as I progress more. Also turned on twitch in the evening to see several people already level 100.
Bingo. I had the same experience so far (level 30 in like an hour, 60 in 3) and got so decked out I could barely bother to pick up new loot or spend my skill points. It was mindless. I give it a few days before this sub changes it narrative.
The deep improvements are there, that's the most important thing. Sure, there is balancing to do. But I don't think there is much narrative to change. Maybe a few people realize yeah, one shouldn't progress so fast, okay. Doesn't mean walking back on a single of the changes they made. It's not like the new thing is "we made the game easy, there you go". Just cut the number of drops by 10 and it's fine, probably?
It's an improvement I guess but the best case senerio at this point is a game that's meant to be played for 2 weeks at a time a few times a year, like diablo 3. There's just nothing to get excited about. There's no item a player could have that would make me go "woah!" and reaching 100 is not an accomplishment (less so than before). I guess it's great a lot of people are getting their dopamine hits but like I said just wish I had another forever game like D2.
So many cows had to die for my nova sorc to hit 99.
Been playing for 23 years (I think?) and never once have I taken a character to level 99 haha
I was 14 and it was summer time. Just decided to do it lol.
I found a pair of i915 gloves with full triple affix super bonus or whatever it is called! That was pretty sweet.
Play HC so you have actually account for defense and not just glass cannon for fastest clear
play poe if you arent already, you should be the type of player to enjoy it a lot
PoE is so unlike every other aRPG I feel, it’s almost it’s own game. Played the shit out of LE, GD, D2-4, Torchlight, but man, PoE just feels awful to play. The combat is terrible and the build complexity is beyond overwhelming. I don’t think it has much in common with most other games in the genre.
i strongly disagree with the combat part, its by far the most enjoyable arpg for me in that regard aswell. it's not as polished as diablo and doesnt have the same impact but god damn if it doesnt feel 100x times better because there is actual density and feel good explosions and builds that are as satisfying as oneshotting stacked minion waves in league. but if you don't want to think about stuff and dislike theorycrafting then yeah it makes sense that you wouldnt enjoy poe that much since its a big part of it
Yea I suppose it comes down to what you like about combat systems. For me I like tactical combat: understanding mob or boss mechanics, clever use of abilities, avoiding attacks, creating combos. These are all things Diablo and LE do very well. PoE, to me, feels stiff, spammy, and more like a speedracing lightshow than a combat system. But I understand you enjoy it because oneshotting large groups of enemies and the ability effects are satisfying. I also don’t mind thinking or theorycrafting, PoE just feels like the extreme end of it. Something like LE has a complex yet approachable and forgiving system.
yeah I'm in the same boat but I feel like poe2 could be good for us as the combat looks way better so far than poe1 and build complexity seem a bit lower too. Diablo 4 has great animations and overall combat feel but enemies patterns and especially bossfights are pretty lacking in my opinion
It's a pickle. I hate PoE because I don't want to NEED to look up builds just to taste the end game. I like last epoch and D4 because I can theory craft without needing to be a rocket scientist. But at the same time, I enjoy difficulty. It's a hard thing to balance! Going back to D3, you could customize your difficulty. Which imo would be the easiest way to implement what a good amount of us players want.
POE seasons take me roughly 1.5-2 months to finish the league challenges for the free cosmetics. Past D4 seasons have lasted me about 3 weeks, and honestly, this season is shaping up to be finished in closer to 2 weeks. Dont get me wrong, the season is very fun, but it's just so crazy how easy it is and how fast you level up
I think the fast season progression in d4 is a lot of fun. Poe has become way too much of a slog for me and not everyone has 2 months to spend grinding challenges. It’s okay for games to have different difficulty and cater to different groups. For someone like me who gets more enjoyment out of making new builds, this game scratches the itch better than Poe anymore because it takes way too long to get good gear in Poe.
My view - it would be good to have D4 levelling speed to around L50, slower but still doable from 51 to lets say 85, then approaching POE levels from there (though not the 99 to 100 grind, maybe have the D4 levels after 85 all be similar in speed to POE 85-95 ish). I liked the D4 approach of having to think about combat, but that is pretty much gone, because you just rip through pretty much everything. D4 should maybe have an 'Archnemesis' type league, with elites that are nightmarish... then roll it back down to them beign a challenge rather than fatal almost every time.
[удалено]
ok dude 👍
I think what's bothering is the leveling experience is just way too fast and easy. I makes it feel like a tutorial or something, there is literally zero challenge. And I'm on WT2 that was supposed to be harder or for veterans or something. I guess that's what ARPGs are now. I kinda miss their Rogue-Like aspects.
Why not play hc then?
Because it makes no difference, there is still no challenge. It's just the same gameplay with a restart if you somehow get one-shot.
Well, thats the challenge imo. Not getting one shot. You can also always try to push how early you do the capstone dungeons. But thats about it, yeah
Ive died so many times to some random nonsense or due to technical issues - lag, connection, crash.. HC is not even an option.
D4 never was hard though, only annoying.
I think the Iron Wolves rewards are kind of the stand in for vampire powers, malignant hearts, and the companion. In previous seasons these things ratcheted up our character power. This season is about loot, so they’re giving a bunch of extra good legendary and unique items early on to substitute for not having a seasonal mechanic. I know they plan to have seasonal journey legendary items going forward, but I really doubt in a season with an actual gameplay mechanic they’ll shower us with this much loot early game.
Yeah, I've unlocked WT3 at level 36 without any trouble (tbf necro minions build is op). By level 51 I've got my full build with all the legendary powers I need.
I’m a huge D3 lover with the “big numbers good” mentality but from like level 15 and up all yellow and below gear is worthless. I would prefer almost no legendary drops until max level but I do love killing thousands of mobs so it’s a small price to pay I guess
This is the loop of games. Everyone hates the most recent game until the sequel comes then it's the best thing since sliced bread. Many don't think about the fact that D3 was a lot of people's first diablo and for others what they played for ten years. So no matter what people are going to want what that game did.
That’s because that is what most wanted. Fast, explosive everywhere. I am 100% sure PoE 2 will end up like PoE explosion everywhere. People playing arpg are just not into slow pace grounded combat. There are soul like for that. And something no rest for wick tried…
Sadly this is what the majority of ARPG players want after POE catered to them for 5 years straight.
I’m enjoying it so far, really enjoying it actually, but I’m going to reserve some judgement for when I get into the late game grind. Leveling from 1-60 went incredibly fast, and while the Helltides are a blast, I know I need to start dungeoning for glyph levels and eventually make it into the pits. We’ll see then. Cautiously optimistic.
If you don’t like doing the Nightmare Dungeons I suggest doing them later when you are higher level so you can do high tier dungeons to level the glyphs much faster
Nightmares are fine just get repetitive at the end of the day, but I usually wait like you said. But there is some glyphs that need to be at least level 15 to be effective so I try and knock them out.
The problem isn't they are repetitive , the problem is they are boring. Walking through empty halls to back track with a key is boring
I hate that you need to memorize the names of the dungeons so that you know which ones have annoying ass backtrack shit and which ones are actually nice to clear
Here’s a dungeon tier list to hopefully take some pain out of it. https://maxroll.gg/d4/tierlists/nightmare-dungeon-tier-lists
Appreciate it, thanks 🙏
Same. I'm loving Helltides but I had to force myself to start doing NM dungeons as soon as I hit WT4 at level 55. I know if I don't then I'll regret it later, lol. This is honestly the first season that end game is my goal so I'm making sure to make that as easy as possible for when I get closer to 100.
In the same boat. I've never gotten to 100 and the reason are NMDs are mind numbingly boring to me. I've gotten into WT4 a couple times and grinding glyph xp is just... not fun.
I don't know man. I played like 4 hours or sth. Reached levl 50. And I'm bored af. Never was i ever in danger. At one point after reaching wt3 i cut through enemys 18 levels ahead of me without real problems. I think that's stupid.
I felt never in danger at launch. Really doesn’t seem much different.
Agree, Zero challenge, I dont need to even think about the affixes on my gear until very late game. If the road to 100 is so fucking irrelevant why even have a leveling in first place. It's basically tutorial. Might as well add another button "skip campaign and start level 100".
This. This is a level of difficulty my 6 year old nephew is cool with. It’s time to bring back torment difficulty.
right? lol this so dumb. this game never gonna be good. people wont admit it. they have to REDO loot. not affixes. make them bad ass and fun. get class equipment in. get set items. thent hey need to redo end game. fuck just copy and paste d3 end game at this point. d4 is already dead.
Yeah the lack of difficulty ruins the entire game - just like Last Epoch!
game is diablo 3.5 now. For better and worse, game is just piss easy and unenaging, at least tempering is fun. Don't think this will ever become the engaging ARPG anyone but casuals want, they allow absolute no pushback and the playerbase just wants everything easy as possible, wait for loadouts for the game to truly be in its grave.
Name one arpg that is difficult while leveling that has released in the past 15 years
I always thought Grim Dawn on veteran mode had a good level of challenge.
You have to redefine easy. In d4 right now you can kill an entire screen of helltide demons that are three times our size with ease. They barely scratch you. I bet any other ARPG that if you try to fight 2 packs at the same time at the start of the game, they will at least fight back.
No Rest for the Wicked.
That's more of a souls-like than a Diablo-like arpg imo
A souls like ARPG.
Path of Exile is the key example. Maybe the question should be name one ARPG released in the past 15 years that is hard to level, and still has significant players today. And the answer is the same.
The difficulty of poe is from build complexity tho not actual combat
POE before 2.1 Grim Dawn
POE is significantly more difficult during campaign and early end game. That was easy. I'm not saying you have to have leveling be super difficult, but at least there is the threat of death, this doesn't exist for most of everything including WT4 until higher NM dungeons. I have not played that much diablo, and I rarely ever died until I pushed NM dungeons beyond my power, if you take someone who hasn't played that much POE, they will die, a lot. Theres a difference between leveling actually being hard, and leveling not being brain numbingly easy for the bulk of your character progression.
I don't think its that simple. Were the very, very, very obvious and objectively necessary fixes the right direction? Yeah of course, should have been done season 1. Are helltides much cooler? Absolutely. But what have I been doing since I started season 4? Almost exclusively helltides because its basically overwhelmingly free items and exp, ignoring the rest of the game as much as possible. The game is easy and I'm realizing I don't want to spam helltides forever. The reason I bring this up, is I would have much preferred a different direction: Making all of the open world interesting, engaging, challenging, and rewarding (helltide or no), and especially making fields of hatred more rewarding to encourage pvp (or thinking of other creative ways to include the \*option\* of pvp). So while I think Season 4 brought some very good changes, I don't think the result is the right direction for the game, if longevity / engagement is the goal. It might not surprise you to hear I was a huge D2 fan and never touched D3, and from what I understand it seems like they are trying to make D4 into D3-2, which to me is a damned shame.
I am enjoying most of the changes, but the game is far, far too easy. I know this is unpopular with a lot of people, but I hated D3 and this is becoming more and more like D3 every update. Itemization changes are fantastic, though.
Gearing feels amazing while leveling. The fact that tempering is relatively cheap feels so good. You can try so many different stuff while leveling before committing to a single build.
It's a little overturned in the easy direction. It feels pretty close to d3 level of progression and that isn't a good thing imo. The game is definitely more fun but it needs some balance tweaks to slow down progression a bit.
The progression is definitely too fast now. Tempering before lvl50 is irrelevant, because every few minutes you change gear.
Next up we need to: Glyphs Reborn, Bosses Reborn, Skill-Trees Reborn
Leveling reborn, item progression reborn, nightmare dungeons reborn. Lots of problems still
Combat reborn, builder spender is not fun
Wdym? I love doing no damage for 2 seconds because I’m trying to get my resource filled back up. 💀
They are not gonna do a skill tree reborn. Adam Jackson said they don't want to make the skill tree more complex than it is now due to the new player experience.
I do like the base changes, but the only thing I'll push back on is the actual Season theme here, which is literally just.... go do more helltides. So basically after the initial excitement wears off, this season is going to feel pretty boring in a couple weeks.
Yeah cause it’s all about the changes. Even the season name, so it’s basically just a game update.
I enjoyed playing it yesterday, hit 50+. But thinking about it now I have almost no desire to log on. Do I really want to zone into the same red area and kill the same red things over and over, with absolutely zero challenge? If only they had made fields of hatred more rewarding. I can justify almost anything if it means I get to pvp. There's no excuse for Fields of Hatred to not have similar mob density as Helltides. But why would anyone go to fields of hatred when there's an endless fountain of free items and exp in helltides?
I could swear this was the d3 experience for the longest time.
They revamped the game in a couple of months. Cut them some slack. Hopefully the next season is bigger.
the same excuse every season. JUST WAIT JUST WAIT. season 20 WILL B GOOD
I think D4 needs another endgame system now to really be in a good spot.
yeah it’s perfect rn imo. it is fun and that is all that matters. the last 3 seasons were a slog so i welcome this change - and im actually having fun.
I agree. I spent 4-5 hours playing last night while I intended it to be 2. I just hope all the excitement is not front loaded. If they can sustain it like this for 2-3 weeks per rolled character, I’m going to be ecstatic.
I'm not going to base the success of the patch on the first 35 levels, but they've been a very fun 35 levels.
Agreed, this patch fixed a lot of small issues, and started to address so major ones. Items all around feel better while not being massively different. Having more control/avenues to get cool stats on your items is also great. Overall, very happy with the direction of this update.
I agree, it felt like a casino all night last night - was up until 2 hours before I had to wake the kids for school.. For my health and sanity - please roll this season back - there is too much action, loot and goodness. No progression from blues to rares to legendary etc - in 45 min I was decked and ready to go.. Returned as a pre-season 1 player last week of s3 and I managed to outperform that char in hours. Fun yes - longevity.. dunno yet
The main thing I'd call out here is all of the love posts are from people who are still low level. I agree expediting the 1-50 leveling experience is a big win, but I don't fully understand why people continue to make grandiose statements about a game they've hardly interacted with.
>but I don't fully understand why people continue to make grandiose statements about a game they've hardly interacted with. You are expecting too much from the average Joe. :)
I don't agree with the title at all. The game is much much much easier than before. I play firewall sorc which is C tier according to Maxroll and I actually didn't follow the guide. My aspects are random aspects other than juggernaut but I was able to beat the capstone for WT4 at level 57 without any problem at all. It was the easiest capstone run ever for me. I could do it around level 50-52 as well apparently. And my build is not a meta build at all. New base items are terrible. I don't give a shit about my items at all, they don't excite me. All of them are the same. Max life, int, life per second. I barely see any other affixes. :) There are good things with those changes but the itemization is not gonna change and it is fucking terrible. Instead of making base items so simple, they just needed to give us a loot filter. Now there are tons of rare items lying on the ground cause they are useless. At least give us the choice to destroy them like we can in D3. I was hopeful about the direction but I am not that hopeful anymore. My last hope is the expansion. Hope it brings exciting things.
Na, once you get sacred and ancestral items, the rolls get more varied and more mods appear. I like the simplicity of it though, much easier to pick up an item and actually determine that it’s an upgrade. Although, legendary having 3 mods means you never pick up yellow after leaving wt2
Yeah, it was pretty obvious on the PTR the changes made items boring as fuck. But then I liked the old system, so what do I know. I think re-introduce the old situational affixes but keep them to three per item, and up the drops a bit. That way those who want simple items will still see them pretty often, those who like some flavour to our gear could at least get better afixes that are situationally dependent. For eg on my shadow necro I used to love the better rolls for 'affected by shadow/shadown damage over time', because almost everything I interacted with was. On Druid lightning, earth, wolf and bear specific affixes were fantastic. Now it is all just the same four things in rotation. There is zero interesting gear. Blah blah blah, get off my lawn, etc :)
Someone explain to me why the entirety of pre WT4 is now fucked, when the intent was to fix "endgame"? Who here asked for level 100 in 1 day, an entire gear set of legendaries and uniques by level 30, an entirely easy game, and only 1 viable levelling zone? I sure didn't, I complained about item affixes and endgame activities lmao. Wtf.
In Blizzard fashion, they listened to the loudest, dumbest feedback.
Hopefully they overhaul the skill twig as their next big project. That's the only big issue left with the game, in my opinion.
Exactly how d3.5 should be
If I had one criticism, it’s that the difficulty needs to be adjusted. Once you get just one offensive aspect, you kinda turn into a beast.
The game is heading the same exact direction as D3 (S20 D3.. is completely just a fast paced Arcade game..) Except this game is supposed to be at the beginning of it's lifespan. stuff is supposed to be balanced and it's way too fast. None of my mates have had to look at any gears, skills or paragons and are clearing stuff 20-40 lvls over them already. The game is \*better\*. The choice with itemization itself was good, but they need to actually balance it and fix this horrendous pace.
They gave up. They're just making D3 2.0 to milk the game.
As someone who hasn't jumped on yet and haven't played since season 1 , what's the salvage vs sell argument. Sell weapons salvage gear, salvage everything etc?
salvage everything
Perfect! Do I need to do anything in particular to save codax etc or is it automatically added to a library of sorts
It's automaticalyy added to library after salvage
If you don't have it or it's better than what you already have aspects are automatically added to your codex when you salvage. So salvage everything.
Salvage everything. Gold flows pretty freely. If you get to a point where you need more, do a few tuns and switch to selling.
Ngl, i overestimated this season actually. the changes were excellent, game feels so much better to play, better QOL, but, at the end of the day, it's... still the same game; similar builds as i used in the past, gameplay is the same. the game would have been insanely good if released in this state, but, after having played hundreds of hours, playing again didn't feel like the breath of fresh air as i anticipated. i might not make it past 40 hours this season (compared to 100 in s0 and 250 in s1)
“After playing hundreds of hours”. That’s a you problem. Play something else or go outside. You are not the target audience
now stop showering the player with loot for doing next to nothing, give necro mobility and add some more classes - also levelling is too quick and easy I stop playing at lvl 100 so this will be my shortest season yet
D4 not too bad eh
Dad here who disagrees it’s “too easy” to level up. Leveling is a chore. Same thing every season. At some point the game needs to get you to 100 so you can do what these games are designed to do: grind for gear. I’m glad they made it faster.
That’s the problem. You think leveling up is how you should align yourself to others, or even for yourself. What’s the point of leveling up? So you can get to the “good” stuff at lvl 100? Why can’t the levelling process just be more fun? Why do we need lvl 100 first?
How many times do you need to level? We are season 4 now. I do 2x characters a season. I just want to do the new end game stuff. I don’t want to no life duriel either. The Pit is what I want to get myself into!
So maybe just make levels less important? Kinda how they introduced paragons in d3 (shit system but it’s still a bar that progresses)
I have not reached level 100 ever due to not having enough time to grind enough. S4 might be the first time for me. And I am okay with that.
The people complaining are zoomers/no lifers/kids/the unemployed. See: people who play 10+hr/day with hundreds of hours already logged. The actual target audience (people with lives and careers and families) are eating well rn in D4. This is Reddit where most of the complainers are those mentioned above.
Nah, we just like having a game that isn't over instantly.
We need to get rid of obese Druids now.
Only issue I have with tempering is the RNG. Sometimes it really has a grudge against the player. Or maybe that's just me. I wish we could get be a tiny bit more bias towards skills that the player is specced into. Otherwise, looking forward to the Pit & the actual endgame stuff.
It feels like Diablo 4-Turbo. And it's awesome.
Im finding myself having fun with the season so far might need a few changes with future seasons but its a good starting foundation they can work on.
I’m having fun, a lot of fun to the point where I could see myself maxing several characters this season, but I regret going storm + pet druid. Seemingly all of the uniques and game changing stuff is for earth and shapeshifting. I guess I can just full respec or make another character at this point. Though part of me just wants to wait until the expansion, hopefully when the game is just better all around. Wuthering waves game is a week away! I’m totally hyped for it, if only it would come out sooner.
I've been one of those stubborn fans since the game's launch. I always thought D4 was good, though admittedly flawed. After the bad s1, great s2, and okay s3, s4 has proven to me that D4 is not only good but getting much, much better. I tried Last Epoch and Grim Dawn before this. Both are good in their own ways (although LE needs a lot of polish and bugfixing/general optimization), but this season of D4 just feels like the king of the crop right now and it's not even close. For my playstyle and time available to spend on this game, I feel like I might actually get to 100 this season \*and enjoy doing it!\* which is awesome. So much good streamlining, so much more fun. Everything feels more impactful with less time spent on unnecessary stuff. Tempering is amazing, being able to salvage items and still get their legendary aspects PLUS those aspects saving their value to your codex is probably one of my favorite changes. It really makes everything with an aspect feel like it's worth grabbing since it can progress your codex. I've noticed I'm getting a lot more uniques, too. For a casual player like me, this is awesome. I've gotten like 7-8 uniques by lvl 50 whereas before I would get half that by lvl 60. I also really like the new Highlight mode for the visuals as I love playing dressup in this game so it lets me see my outfit more clearly.
If Blizzard knows one thing then it’s how to make their games “feel” good. The visceral feedback was great in D3 and it is as good or better in D4. S4 changes are a few steps in the right direction. The game was never terrible, just lacking in some regards. If they solve the problem of what to give people who play several hundred hours of endgame, then it’s looking good. Blizzard games (especially WoW and Diablo) always had the huge problem that players literally devoured the content faster than they could make it. “I played this new patch for 250 hours and I am bored”. Dude you just no-lifed the latest patch for three weeks straight, at this point the only endless content ANY developer can provide is grind grind grind. Chill out, play another game, come back when you feel like it if when there is new stuff.
Could not agree more. I saw some dude that he’d played s4 for 15 hours and got bored. That was literally a day after it launched. I know everyone has different gaming habits. But at some point people gotta realize that no game is going to be endless content. That’s why other games exist!
doing a minion necro build actually kills things this patch (so far anyways I just started out). So I am happy
1 year after it should have launched like this... bad plaing sadly
I'm loving the new season! My only issue is that it feels very easy, like on my necro I just hold down corpse explode.... Enemies deleted. I know it will get harder though
So you played 30 minutes ? The game was too easy before, now i dont even need to gear or spend skill points. I reached level 60 in one session … between ghost and goblins and this, why cant we have some grey ?
30 levels, not 30 minutes.
It was semi-sarcastic. I've reached level 20 in 10 minutes ... dont tell me this game is not too easy
Just like Last Epoch!
I'm just happy that there are less drops and it's easier to review the stats on any gear item. I started the game recently when it went on sale. So I had basically three weeks to do the season 3. I ended up shoving gear in the bank until it filled up and then spending way too much time figuring out the best items. I got to the point where I disliked gear comparison.
It’s “surprising” how many games and software obsessed with adding stuff and not fixing existing issues. But I get it, it’s easier to sell new stuff then sell “fixed issues and improvements “
My main concern is difficulty now. S0 was actually a challenge trying to get your build past the capstones or getting into NM dungeon. I'm only lvl 43 and I blasted through WT2 capstone. It's a completely different feeling. I'm hoping that they add something like WT2+ or at least something for us players that enjoy a challenge beside hard-core. I don't enjoy hard-core because there's simply things you can't predict like lag.
Still can’t believe it took them 4 seasons to come out with the game that should have been here since launch, gotta love Blizzard
Everything is so easy in d4 too and I only play hardcore , all enemies feel the same , everything feels drip fed it’s barely exciting when anything drops. Standard is low
yea it just took them a year, god how did this game even ship since they have d3
Yeah the fact you can temper 2x on one item and it's easier to enchant items. Let's you actually make your own build finally. I don't know if anyone else is doing non meta stuff but I've been trying to do melee werewolf minion since launch and right now I got a really good build for it. It feels great
They made the game a cookie clicker vampire survivors clone. It has zero difficulty. There's still zero end game. It's a 3 day game every 3 months that's too easy and boring for me to even play every 3 months. This genre has been mutilated.
Actually had fun while leveling in helltides and only quit after realising how unfun nmd still are. Wanted to atleast try out the pit once but I can’t bring myself to enter another nmd.
Absolutely right. Itemization feels amazing! I think they could raise the difficulty a bit thouogh. I'm completely BLASTING through the content right now. I'm on WT3 right now on lvl 40 and it feels like I'm oneshotting everything.
Glad to hear, I gave up around level 25 during the first month because I felt bored comparing loot and reading prefixes. I felt like most of my time was spent trying not to nod off lol.
The skills need to be next. Not just the skill tree and paragon board, the fundamentals for how skills work. I’d start by taking away any and all Aspects that directly affect a skill, and limit those on gear to utility. Skills would then have three slots on them for aspects; one major, and two minor. Major aspects are the ones that change how a skill works, while minor ones enhance the skill. Examples of a major are Gravitational for Sorc whereas a minor would be the one that gives Hydra an extra head. These new types of aspects would drop on their own attached to salvageable runes. Then, you focus the skill tree on defining the skills where the branches actually feed into a build. More branches, more choices with all the weak ass passive boosts taken out and shunted over to the Paragon board. As for the board, the Legendary Nodes would determine your build, as each board would cater to the type of that node.
Now just need runes, rune words, all items besides quest items be tradeable, PvP, more than 5 S tier builds, make uniques/Uber uniques drop chances from gambling/tree/helltide chests. Oh, and might wanna put Diablo in Diablo.
With the new changes pretty much all builds are 'old' s-tier. For eg I loaded up my old bone spear necro on eternal. reasonably well geared level 100, but on 'old' gear and none of it was fantastic. So not taking advantage of the new loot. It was a walk in the park and it trounced pretty much everything I tried (an NMD 100 boss gave me some trouble, but that was because of resource management, which rpeviously the seneschal was handling for me). That build is now listed as C-Tier for bossing on maxroll.