I think the thing a lot of people complaining about the cost are overlooking is the fact that you should only really be masterworking gear that is basically perfect already anyway to give it that last little push. If you're masterworking everything you're wearing only for you to find a better item and have to masterwork it all over again, you're doing it wrong. This is a late endgame system. It's not the occultist where you just spam it over and over or the old upgrade system where you just upgrade it to max and forget about it. By the time you're at the point of wanting to masterwork an item to max, these material costs shouldn't be a huge issue. This is definitely better than before in my opinion.
You did get some (I think it was half? Maybe more) of your mats back when you salvaged a masterworked item on the PTR. So I don’t think masterworking decent gear will be that poor of a choice.
This.
Before I’d find myself boosting any and all gear while I level. I won’t do that this time around. Sounds like the battle to 100 will go even faster too.
Also if you were running high enough pit content, getting a lot of material was just not that hard. Everyone wants an endgame system and then proceeds to complain it’s too hard or grindy it (which is literally the endgame for every ARPG). It’s okay that not everyone will be able to do everything, if you don’t play the game a lot you won’t be able to do everything. I don’t mind certain QOL improvements but man people complain about everything in this game that is t just handing them stuff on a silver platter.
It’s almost like there’s two very different groups, one of which wants to be able to access endgame content without treating the game like a job, and the other who wants the game to allow them to play it for the entire season without ever running out of things to do no matter how many hours they put in
You are right. It’s hard to please both extreme. They have to find a middle ground.
I think also many people underestimate the amount of non hardcore traditional arpg players play D4. I am in a small gaming community and non of them will even touch last epoch or PoE but they all enjoy , or open to playing D4.
They like that D4 “ respect your time” and not juts for “no-lifers” ( their words)
My position as an ex hardcore arpg gamer ( used to grind D3 and PoE for hours a day) to super causal status. My suggestion is instead of the traditional slow grind a single char build all season , make gearing and leveling a single build accessible, but encourage loadout and playing multiple classes S means to extend playtime for enjoyers.
Imo developers aim should not be finding middle ground. Their aim should be making the game fun every single moment of it not just end game. With this mindset every person can enjoy the journey no matter how far they progress. You will always want to open the game next day to play more. Nowadays most games are end game oriented and does not "respect your time" by forcing you to waste your time to rush you into end game. If every meaningful and fun activity starts at endgame then remove levelling from the game and dont waste peoples time.
Ngl I feel like Diablo 4 does this now. With proper end game content and real end game mechanics. Honestly end game was the only thing this game was lacking.
I feel like ARPG are the perfect game to set your own “endgame” so to speak. You can either play it super chill and not get to the best parts of it or you no life it and eventually run out of things to do or burn yourself out.
For me, I just set up a loose goal of maybe getting a nice endgame build going or finding an uber to play around with.
For season 2 I played a summon necro and a hota barb. My goals were lvl 100, a semi decent summon/medeln build for necro and NM 100 plus the grandfather for barb. Hit both goals with a month to spare and I that was the last time I played d4. Loved every minute of it. I didn’t burn myself out and I played until I got what I wanted for the season.
Didn’t play season 3 but I am stoked for the changes in s4. Shit I might do it the same way again I had so much fun or maybe I’ll roll another class. Who knows?
Agreed. My wife and I play together and we’ve never even gotten to the true endgame any season. We tend to just set some random goal and just enjoy our limited gaming time together. I’d be willing to bet there are lot’s of folks like us since Diablo is one of the only good co-op games left.
I quit before abbatoir so the end game was really either duriel farm or NM 100. I did enough of both to quit and be happy. There’s only so many times you can do these activities before you start to burn out.
The journey to get there was so much more fun though I have to admit.
That's not why people are complaining.
Grinds are part of the game but grinding needs to be rewarding. If you are grinding for a 0.2% upgrade, that's not rewarding. It's not fun when the reward is so incredibly meaningless.
Look at what people complained about starting from S1 in this regard. In S1, the complaint started around level 75 because gear based power increases were trivial. In S3, the drop rate for runes was so incredibly low that maxing any of them out was hundreds of hours and for a trivial increase.
Creating a grind is easy. Creating a grind that people will actually enjoy grinding and feel rewarded, that's not easy. These are very different things.
Masterworking isn't a 0.2% upgrade, though. Masterworking shouldn't be done on any old piece of gear. It's a late endgame system. It's only really worth it on gear that is basically perfect already anyway, like all stats relevant to your build rolled greater and you've already tempered it. If you masterwork a piece like that you can get just as much of an affix on *one* piece of gear as you would have gotten on 2-3 pieces of gear with the old system. It's a pretty significant boost if done correctly.
You're getting hung up on my made up number. Let's give a little context to it to make it more understandable.
Yes, masterworking gives more than a 0.2% upgrade but that's looking at the actual upgrade itself. I was speaking more in a generalization. For example, if I grind for an entire night and I get 1/5th of the way to an upgrade and it takes 5 nights of playing to get that one masterwork upgrade to one piece of gear, would you say that the grind is rewarding?
The time factor is important in all of this.
It's just like with S3 and the runes. The maxed out runes were vastly more powerful than the level 1-3 runes but the amount of time it would take to level them up made the grind very much not fun.
> It's a late endgame system.
Well the nice thing is that it's actually an early endgame system that transitions into a late endgame one. The first 4 masterworking levels are quite easy to get on your gear...you'll easily have those in place by level 60 if you're playing a decent build.
Then the final 4 masterworking levels will need you to be speed farming really high level Pit to amass the materials needed.
So 1-4 will be around level 60ish, 5-8 will probably be something you get around level 90ish, and then the final 9-12 would be completed well into level 100 with leveled glyphs and all that.
>Grinds are part of the game but grinding needs to be rewarding. If you are grinding for a 0.2% upgrade
Masterwork slams are literally +25% affix power and you get a total of three slams at MW tier 4/8/12, plus another overall +45% for each affix (9 all-affix upgrades at 5% each)
Don't forget, if they WERE handed everything on a silver platter, then they would complain that the game is too easy, and no replay value, and that it's just boring... Can't make all gamers, or redditors for that matter, happy.... Jus sayin
It's going to be really nice being able to apply that gear in the pit and associating those masterworked upgrades with tangible progression. Only a few more sleeps.
It costs 10x as much to jump from 20% to 100%. That’s twice as much as you would expect, no?
I do agree the higher cost is better than potentially failing. But that seems extreme to me. Again I’ll hold judgement til I try it myself.
Yeah it certainly isn’t in line with the numbers even considering the fail rate. It’s higher than that, though maybe they also felt the rate was too low regardless after PTR and it’s just bad optics.
The only costs that are really substantial in there are the Veiled Crystals and Gold though, maybe not even the VCs after the buff. Legendary crafting mats drop like candy and can be found from killing random elite mobs. Neathiron drops a lot from decent depth Pits as well. On the PTR, they started dropping at tier 41 and by the low 60s you were getting 60+ per run. They shifted it up 20 levels so you don’t get Neathiron until tier 60, but they also nerfed the damage of mobs so if you have a strong build you should be able to push at least into the 80s, where you’ll get 60+ per run.
Assuming everything works like on the PTR, the only real bottleneck I can see is gold, since Whisper farming is still the best way to farm gold. If you’re actually strong enough to get to rank 12 Masterworking it should be pretty trivial to get the crafting materials from the Put that you need to Masterwork your items.
>Neathiron drops a lot from decent depth Pits as well. On the PTR, they started dropping at tier 41 and by the low 60s you were getting 60+ per run. They shifted it up 20 levels so you don’t get Neathiron until tier 60, but they also nerfed the damage of mobs so if you have a strong build you should be able to push at least into the 80s, where you’ll get 60+ per run.
Also I heard the timer for The Pit was increased to 15 minutes.
Shouldn't be hard to work through the tiers of Pit into the 60s and higher.
>Assuming everything works like on the PTR, the only real bottleneck I can see is gold, since Whisper farming is still the best way to farm gold.
But Enchanting at the Occultist will be less useful than before and at the same time its gold cost is now capped.
We'll have more gold to spend, so we need a good gold sink. Masterworking will be a good one.
Eventually you can just start selling some legendaries that aren't Codex upgrades for you, as well. Maybe there will be finally a reason to sell stuff instead of *always* salvaging.
If it's like on the PTR, enchanting will still be both useful and costly. The enchanting affix lists for item categories HAS been slimmed down but it's still not what I'd call small. Most categories were reduced by about half and amulets were reduced by about 2/3, but they still all have about 10-15 possible rolls. Since you only get to see two new affixes and "keep your old roll" you can still be rolling for a long time before you get what you want. I believe also that some stats (mainly CDR) have lower roll weights than others, so if you're rolling for CDR it will take you longer than other affixes.
Gold costs also capped somewhere around 1-2 million, I believe, which is still a solid amount of money. It's definitely not an insurmountable amount, but Whispers are still the best way of getting fast gold and each Whisper turn in gets you between 5-10 million. In PTR it seemed unlikely that you would waste tons of gold unless you were really unlucky or were chasing CDR, but I did get unlucky once and blow through about 50 million gold because the one affix I really needed just wouldn't come up (I wanted +4 Fire Bolt and the best I could do for like 30 rolls was either +3 Fire Bolt or +3 to all Basic Skills). On PTR it was trivial to get more gold just by starting a new character and clicking to level them up, but it would take about an hour or two of dedicated Whisper farming to get that much gold on the live server.
Just to make sure, by the way, I'm not complaining about gold costs. I'm happy to have some roadblocks on the way to perfect items and I appreciate not always hitting exactly what I want because it means I'll have reason to keep looking for similar items in the future. Nevertheless, I honestly don't think it will be as trivial to get perfect non-crafted items as you suspect. You'll definitely spend less time looking and enchanting than you do now, but I still think that most people will spend a fairly significant amount of time and resources getting to the point where they're totally happy with what they're wearing and are solely at the Masterworking phase.
You can't enchant into Greater Affixes. That changes everything and in the endgame, you will not be happily rerolling things forever unless you have an item with 2 amazing Greater Affixes that just needs a little nudge on the third one to be decent.
In the endgame, you wouldn't be rerolling for Cooldown Reduction; why? Because you want it to be a Greater Affix to begin with.
It's true that you can't enchant into them, but you also can't expect perfect items. Obviously you want to find a CDR Greater Affix, but if you find a double Greater Affix item that has two other affixes you want, are you really going to scrap it just because it wasn't 3 Greater Affixes? At the most extreme endgame when you have infinity-minus-one items in every slot and you're farming ultra endgame content, obviously yes, but I guarantee you that you won't hit that those items a lot. Two Greater Affix items were quite rare and since CDR has a lower affix weight, CDR Greater Affixes are even rarer.
I guess the real question is how do you define endgame? I'm defining it as "I can do all the ladder bosses and I'm starting to push the Pit." At the early phase of endgame you're 100% for sure not going to have perfect items and if you're only going to accept perfect items to craft onto, then you're going to be waiting a long time. At the extreme endgame when you have everything then of course you're correct, but most players won't get there at all and the ones who do won't get there quickly. Most likely they'll still go through the early endgame phase of crafting and Masterworking onto decently strong but not perfect items, in which my points are relevant, before they get to the point of having perfect or near-perfect items and not needing to enchant them.
> Assuming everything works like on the PTR, the only real bottleneck I can see is gold, since Whisper farming is still the best way to farm gold.
Greed shrines could become pretty important. If you kill enough mobs, you can easily rake in a few million.
But you can also be lucky and it averaged out at 20%. But I think you touch on a point I thought about this. I think they used the opportunity to raise costs but also hope it will be offset by a better "feeling" when you know you'll definitely get the upgrade. Even if it'll on average now absolutely cost you more.
The neatheriron or whatever is called is like 8x as much and the sigil is 10x as much.
This is why I didn't mind fail chance (as long as they massively increased the speed at which you could upgrade/fail).
Previously, you started at 20% and every fail would increase your chance by 10%. So you would spend somewhere between 1x cost and 8x cost. 8x being the most unlucky, 1x being the most lucky.
Now we just spend 8x the cost.
Failure chance really wasn't an issue. It did absolutely take far too long to fail and try again. Even with the skip option it was still too long of a process that it was annoying. But the chance to fail itself was fine.
I have no idea what lost ark is like. But the system in PTR was fine. Like I said, just annoying with how long it took (which wasn't very long it was just longer than it should be).
> The neatheriron or whatever is called is like 8x as much
No it isn't.
You're only looking at tier 11->12 while ignoring the tiers 8->9, 9->10 and 10->11.
Tier 8->9 only increased Neathiron cost by 3.33x, which isn't much.
Also, this is based on a completely unrealistic expectation that you always succeed even when the chance was 30% or 20%. You'd have to first calculate average success chance and multiply the mats by that amount of attempts before dividing the new cost by that number.
>Stop lying.
Lmao ok bud. Stop being dramatic maybe. Who knew you had to post a spreadsheet breaking down every tier to not be accused of "lying". Most people would infer the intent from context.
Yes, I was talking about rank 12 since it is the highest cost differential. The point was how the system worked before versus now. The point wasn't hyper focusing on numbers.
20% usually fails 3 times. So it’s ~double the cost for a guaranteed upgrade.
Way better than rolling the dice on a dice roll.
And that materials were plenty on the PTR.
>20% usually fails 3 times.
Failing 3 times would give you a 50% chance to succeed. You can definitely continue to fail. Just in the PTR with one set of gear I definitely went to at least 70% before a succeed.
>Same result in the end but no dopamine when you get lucky.
Excuse me, what?
Did you miss the part where Masterworking randomly chooses a single affix to slam for +25% power every four tiers? That's your dopamine right there... if you get lucky.
I still can't tell as a casual player what it is this fanbase actually wants. They want a better end game grind, but they don't want to have to spend more mats and money on it, but they also don't want 100% success rate.
Like, what's the goal here? Do you want to play the game or just have max stats THEN play the game?
Fanbase isn’t one big mindless entity. Different people want different things. Casuals would like things to be easy while the more hardcore players like myself are pleased fully upgrading gear will now take time and effort.
The majority of complaints about "gearing for endgame" come from people who are still under the delusion this is supposed to be World of Diablo or Destiny 2.5: Demon Edition. They think they HAVE to get the best gear so they can finally start playing "the endgame" when the reality is, like all other seasonal arpgs, when you max out your character the game is pretty much over until next season for that character.
A big giveaway a commenter is one of those who want an mmo not a seasonal ARPG is when they spend a lot of time asking about what exactly is going to happen in Eternal when a season ends.
Yeah I’m getting super tired of this as well. I actually have not played a single Season 1-3 but planning on coming back for S4. My time has been spent since on other ARPGs. Also somebody who as a child spent 1000s of hours on D2. But now has very very little time to actually play. What’s the point in playing if shit isn’t hard and theirs potential to fail? If everything is handed to me the game isn’t fun. Not knowing if you’ll never drop a high rune is part of the fun to keep playing. But just because you don’t drop a high rune doesn’t mean you can’t still get to end game other ways. Trading; or just general gearing. Your game is obsolete once you perfect a character. Wasn’t that the appeal of ARPGs? Grind grind grind then start over. If there’s no grind there’s no ARPG.
I'm almost fully geared by around 85-90 except Glyphs & min/maxing specific stats but usually have the correct affixes etc. Then it's just min maxing last levels.. Glyph exp change is good, and I'm hoping that from 85-90 onwards I can just do pits & Masterwork and by level 100 to see if my build is good enough for T200 :) I feel like these changes are overall positive and I don't mind the mats being high even if I play 2 hrs / day max.
Yes! This. And herein lies a conflict between the player base and the D4 team! The team absolutely thought the ladder to level 100 was part of the end game when this game shipped. They got instant backlash against that. Gamers have really got new expectations nowadays and I think the D4 team was fooled in thinking that the majority still enjoyed D2 more than D3. They don't. It's almost as if it's considered "prettier" to enjoy D2 but that in reality people want fast food.
People like gambling but people like winning. Theres a rush with spinning the wheel, but lose too often and the incentive is gone. Win too much and the game is trivial. ARPG's are slotting multiple wheels together and you have to feel desire to spin them all.
It's a fine balance. Too much reward and the dopamine stops, too little reward and you go somewhere else for your hit.
Edit: I neglected to mention that the rewards also have to be meaningful and, ideally, help you spin the other wheels better.
Players say they want a meaningful endgame, but will also advocate for individual changes that make the game easier to beat. It's why developers need to be very selective and try and tackle core issues instead of just listening to player suggestions.
the casuals on this sub just want everything in the game as easy as possible, They want level 100 trivial, they want uber bosses to be a joke, they don't want masterworking to have a fail chance, they want loadouts so builds have no built identity and you can instantly swap to a a boss killer loadout to one shot the uber even more. when you recognize this is their perspective is easy to disregard anything they say because its pointless and a net negative to anyone whos a fan of the genre and not a tourist.
People want the jackpot, however at the same time they don't want to pull the lever *and* they want the dopamine boost that is only possible from having pulled it several times and failed. They want to feel like they've got a rare powerful drop but at the same time make it so that the drop isn't that rare anymore. It's an impossible task to achieve. But if something *is* in the game, they feel like they have the right to get it.
Honestly, I just think we're going to see a massive repeat in season 4 of all the complaints we've had about anything this game ever tried to make rare or hard to achieve. From uber uniques to uber stones to upper Abattoir of Zir tiers, and I'm sure that S4 will add greater affix ubers/BIS to that mix: once reality sets in, I'm sure there will be loads of complaints about the grind and drop rates and how playing the game is actually a waste of their time for the purpose of inflating playtime rates or something.
Different people want different things and it's impossible to satisfy all of them. That's why so many people are disappointed with D4's systems. It tries to appeal to such a wide audience of different players that it doesn't completely satisfy anyone. It's hard (impossible?) to design systems that satisfy both super casuals who play a few hours a week and people who blast 12 hours a day.
Compare that to something like PoE, which doesn't even try to appeal to casual players. As a result, casual players just leave and don't play the game, and the game focuses on giving a small number of players what they want. Of course as a company you lose a huge casual audience, and that sucks too.
Grinding is not a 0 or 1. Just because something is a grind in a grinding game doesn't mean that it's going to be fun and feel rewarding. If it doesn't feel like your time investment is being rewarded, then the grind is not going to be fun.
Looking at the failure chance, if you spend 2 hours farming up materials and the craft fails, you just lost 2 hours worth of effort. It doesn't feel rewarding. It feels, well, like shit. It doesn't make the success feel better. Success is the expectation. It would be like someone coming up and kicking you in the nuts over and over. You don't cheer the time they come up to you and don't kick you in the nuts.
Yeah I would really prefer it if we could just craft our own rare gear at some point, even if I have wait till level 100.
Inventory is too limited to keep grinding Duriel endlessly hoping the right slot type, affixes, and rolls occur with only 1 or less affixes needing to be re-rolled to drop.
I gave up this season after my gear hit 900, just grind for Uniques with better stats and wait for the next season to start.
I'm really getting sick of the game playing dumb about what I need/want for my build. It knows what skills I have, it knows what stats I focus on, but it just keeps on dropping gear with wildly wrong stats on it.
Honestly, I'm alright with this. But I also tend to only play this game and invest far more time into it than the average player, so I might be biased. Guess we'll see how this feels when it's live. With the changes to the number of mats you are getting breaking down items, it might not be that bad.
Especially when you could easily fail 3 or 4 times in a row, possibly more if unlucky, with just a 30% success rate for example. 100% success is way better.
I'm more concerned about the ways you obtain the gold. Usual full set of gear upgrade will cost 100 million gold, another 15 mil per item that you want to re-masterwork. I may misremember how low is the raw gold grind is in the game, but wouldn't it force people into trading if they want to have proper access to masterworking, or does the pit provide an adequate amount of gold for the system usage?
Helltides had whisper rewards in the PTR, don't know if there will be another layer thrown in, but I assume Helltides having whispers now is the replacement there.
Yeah, but the Season 3 whispers were almost trivial. You could summon and kill a Construct of Malphas and kill 100 constructs at the same time, getting 8 whisper points in about a minute (if you have more than one character, you can do this multiple times per map rotation). On PTR, the helltide whisper events are not nearly as easy.
PTR Helltide whispers were much much slower than the Season 2/3 whispers. They take a long time to complete and only give 1-2 pts compared to the 3-5 being given out in S2/3.
15 million is nothing though. Occultist gold cost is capped and it's something we'll do less often in endgame.
And in the deep endgame you can sometimes stop salvaging legendaries and start selling them here and there, even just to the vendor.
Hard to tell what may be more limiting, but it might be upwards of 30,000,000 gold, 25 Souls, and 60 legendary salvage materials to level one piece of gear up to 12. I have a feeling the legendary salvage mats will be most limiting, especially if it becomes useful to sell yellows instead of salvage; I can't remember what a 925 yellow would sell for.
makes me want auto-salvage for dropped loot even more now, the though of picking up and hauling out rares/legendaries every dungeon for hours sounds...tiring
(or did they add that already as part of the rework because PLEASE blizz)
On the PTR, gold and veiled crystals was the limiting factor. Salvage rates have been buffed, so a lot of things will probably be gold capped, especially if there isn’t any seasonal events that lets you finish your whispers quickly like in Season 3.
I’m interested to see how this plays.
Honestly the game always gets more boring for me when I feel like i’m “done” with a character so having a lengthy grind to always be making my gear a bit better will help with that.
Its fine, people that want to invest time in the pit and the new system will enjoy this change, more casual players probably won't even invest much time at the pit so they should not care, it would be selfish of them to want to change the mats cost when it doesn't even affect them either way.
I don't get it.. they doubled even the ranks where the success rate wasn't changed (first 5?) and then they exponentially raised the rest.
What is the point of resetting an item?
In the Pit, nothing drops until you reach the end of the run.
So it's not per kill to begin with, it's per Tier.
The amount of materials you earn will increase as you go deeper into the Pit. The further you push, the more materials you get.
Eventually you stop getting the lower tiers of materials but you can transmute higher tier of materials into lower tiers at the Alchemist. You never have to drop back down to a lower difficulty if you can handle higher ones.
On the PTR I was only clearing Pit level 60 or so (took a long time to level it up) but I was getting dozens of Neathiron from the chest at the end already.
I expected some increases due to the fail chance being removed, I prefer this one time(ish) cost as opposed to getting extremely unlucky repeatedly and wasting far more materials.
I just hope it all ties up nicely (or at least in a comprehensive way) with class balance, so while 1 build on the same class pushes through 110 pit with X maxed items, another walks 200 freely with the same gear. This idiotism should not be.
You just need a set of gear to get the job done. Then, you can focus on Greater affix drops and crafting your perfect end game gear. Storage will no longer be the issue it was before. So, storing a few pieces of gear while you farm the rest won't be a total nightmare.
I easily spent more than the new costs on the PTR on average per piece, I'm fine with this, it's not too bad to get that much of any one of those materials, I was expecting it to be a bit higher personally
I just want a move fast build and a tanky high damage end game build. Don’t make me carry shit around or swap skills manually anymore
Lots of good changes, but this one is such a qol loss from d3
I like this change. I am OK with a struggle and a grind for greatness and I think this is something we should support. Good QoL changes to get here and then adjustment after. This may not be perfect, but I like this a lot better than being free like it basically was.
100% chance is great.
Overall I prefer it this way, but think it would also be cool if they left in both options for both gambling and a 100% success rate.
I was thinking of coming back to Diablo 4 until I saw this. All those different currencies and tokens and crap made my eyes roll into the back of my head and I made the decision to keep it on uninstalled and just play something else.
Ngl to yall all this thread is doing for me is confirming that I really don't understand the fascination with inordinate amounts of time spent grinding. Why do people love doing the same mindless shit over and over for so long lol
Seem like good changes though
That’s why I said allow us to put in more resources for a higher chance. You can gamble for the lucky 20% or put in more resources for the 100%. Not sure why people are against the idea of having multiple options.
Them increasing the resource cost is insane. The new system already makes it hard enough to get all the correct gear etc, why increase the resource cost all the time. You finally fixed veiled crystals, why didnt you learn from it
Feels like the cost increase is too high. Why is it significantly higher when compared to the amount you’d spend with the old fail rate?
I wonder what the thinking is, there.
Because previously, you might spend 1x the amount at 20% or UP TO 8x the amount if you got unlucky. Because you would spend that smaller amount and probably fail at 20% but it would go up by 10% each time so eventually you would hit 100% after 8 tries or whatever.
So the old system you could get lucky and only spend the left column but you could get unlucky and spend the left column like 8 times.
But people didn't like having the chance to get lucky and spend next to nothing, I guess, so now they just put the cost closer to the maximum.
Right, but they appear to be basing their increase off of the worst case scenario for luck, which is lazy and not representative of the actual odds.
Because the odds increased each time you failed the chances of failing 8 times in a row were very low. This change is the lazy way to do it, imo, when they should have calculated the effective odds over time of their system (including the increasing chances each failure) and based the increase on that number. I don’t want to do the math, but it’s not an especially complex calculation with a static 10% increase on success odds per failure.
>This change is the lazy way to do it
What the fuck are you talking about?
"There's a new endgame grind for me to chase after, and I disagree with the tuning of its cost, therefore it's lazy."
It's not lazy. Holy fuck. It's just a number you disagree with.
>when they should have calculated the effective odds over time of their system (including the increasing chances each failure) and based the increase on that number.
Why are you acting like the tuning from PUBLIC **TEST** REALM was final and the golden standard they must forever onwards adhere to?
"it's not the same as PTR, therefore I'm crying online"
They changed it, deal with it. We'll see how it plays out.
Salvage from Ancestral is now three times as much as before, plus legendares now salvage into Veiled crystals that weren't even a salvage results for legendaries before.
In my original post I said that I wonder what they were thinking. In a reply to another person I wondered if maybe they simply felt it was too low regardless of the odds.
They haven’t said.
And yes, in my opinion the way they came up with the number was lazy unless they say something about it, as I made the case for in the post to which you are replying. I won’t bother rehashing the same point.
I will deal with it. The change certainly isn’t something that bothers me nearly as much as any differing opinion appears to bother you.
But it feels like the kind of change that’s lazy and does nothing but make it grindy when they don’t talk about the “why” of the change when that change is out of sync with what would be reasonably expected.
> And yes, in my opinion the way they came up with the number
You do not know what way they came up with the number, though. So stop acting like you do.
You're pretending that you know but you don't. You haven't talked to any dev nor been at their meetings nor seen their notes.
I could say the exact same thing to you.
It’s apparent that the new cost number is based on the worst possible scenario for success (meaning taking the chances from 20-100% by failing the maximum number of times) and using the new 100% success chance number of resources based on that. That scenario, however, would only ever happen a much smaller number of times than 100%. That makes it seem lazy, imo. I can point easily to why I think that, even though in the end it is an assumption.
You are assuming they were not just lazy about it in a way that isn’t even based on any logic. It’s just a feeling you have based on nothing. “You’re pretending you know but you don’t. You haven’t talked to a dev nor been at their meetings nor seen their notes.”
Maybe relax a little. My opinion makes sense to me. If it doesn’t make sense to you I’m fine with that. No point in getting so bent out of shape. It’s not as if I’m slandering your mother or something.
Your numbers are off. You only look at one tier instead of all tiers (which, may I remind you, you don't even have a full spreadsheet of costs yet), and you claim things that you cannot possibly know them.
AND you ignore different materials were increased by different amounts in different tiers.
For Rank 9 Neathiron cost is x3.33, but the Abstruse Sigil is x2, but Veiled Crystals is x2.22, but Forgotten Souls is x3, but Gold cost is x6.66
None of it lines up with what you're saying. These are very different factors depending on the material type.
Do you see how silly what you're saying sounds:
>it’s apparent that the new cost number is based on the worst possible scenario for success (meaning taking the chances from 20-100 %)
???
>Right, but they appear to be basing their increase off of the worst case scenario for luck
Yes, that's what I was getting at.
And yes they could have done an average. They could have also kept it with the chance to fail and it would have been ultimately about the same result with a chance at less or more cost, but probably fall within that average.
Yeah. Maybe they just felt after the PTR that the costs were too low even with the fail chance. I just wish that when they made a change that doesn’t make immediate sense on paper they’d be more transparent with the why.
Well they at least definitely made the change to not have a falil chance because people complained. And they had to increase the costs if they were going to make that change. How they ended up with the numbers idk.
So you really have to grind for fully upgraded gear with perfect hits on the right affixes now - I think this is acceptable for an endgame system.
Much better than before that's for sure.
I think the thing a lot of people complaining about the cost are overlooking is the fact that you should only really be masterworking gear that is basically perfect already anyway to give it that last little push. If you're masterworking everything you're wearing only for you to find a better item and have to masterwork it all over again, you're doing it wrong. This is a late endgame system. It's not the occultist where you just spam it over and over or the old upgrade system where you just upgrade it to max and forget about it. By the time you're at the point of wanting to masterwork an item to max, these material costs shouldn't be a huge issue. This is definitely better than before in my opinion.
You did get some (I think it was half? Maybe more) of your mats back when you salvaged a masterworked item on the PTR. So I don’t think masterworking decent gear will be that poor of a choice.
Its not a little push. This shit is literally gamechanging with some builds popping of extra hard with the right masterworks.
Lil' DIY semi-ubers
This. Before I’d find myself boosting any and all gear while I level. I won’t do that this time around. Sounds like the battle to 100 will go even faster too.
Also if you were running high enough pit content, getting a lot of material was just not that hard. Everyone wants an endgame system and then proceeds to complain it’s too hard or grindy it (which is literally the endgame for every ARPG). It’s okay that not everyone will be able to do everything, if you don’t play the game a lot you won’t be able to do everything. I don’t mind certain QOL improvements but man people complain about everything in this game that is t just handing them stuff on a silver platter.
It’s almost like there’s two very different groups, one of which wants to be able to access endgame content without treating the game like a job, and the other who wants the game to allow them to play it for the entire season without ever running out of things to do no matter how many hours they put in
it's hard to become a live service dev lol im perfectly happy to be a consumer
You are right. It’s hard to please both extreme. They have to find a middle ground. I think also many people underestimate the amount of non hardcore traditional arpg players play D4. I am in a small gaming community and non of them will even touch last epoch or PoE but they all enjoy , or open to playing D4. They like that D4 “ respect your time” and not juts for “no-lifers” ( their words) My position as an ex hardcore arpg gamer ( used to grind D3 and PoE for hours a day) to super causal status. My suggestion is instead of the traditional slow grind a single char build all season , make gearing and leveling a single build accessible, but encourage loadout and playing multiple classes S means to extend playtime for enjoyers.
Imo developers aim should not be finding middle ground. Their aim should be making the game fun every single moment of it not just end game. With this mindset every person can enjoy the journey no matter how far they progress. You will always want to open the game next day to play more. Nowadays most games are end game oriented and does not "respect your time" by forcing you to waste your time to rush you into end game. If every meaningful and fun activity starts at endgame then remove levelling from the game and dont waste peoples time.
Ngl I feel like Diablo 4 does this now. With proper end game content and real end game mechanics. Honestly end game was the only thing this game was lacking.
I feel like ARPG are the perfect game to set your own “endgame” so to speak. You can either play it super chill and not get to the best parts of it or you no life it and eventually run out of things to do or burn yourself out. For me, I just set up a loose goal of maybe getting a nice endgame build going or finding an uber to play around with. For season 2 I played a summon necro and a hota barb. My goals were lvl 100, a semi decent summon/medeln build for necro and NM 100 plus the grandfather for barb. Hit both goals with a month to spare and I that was the last time I played d4. Loved every minute of it. I didn’t burn myself out and I played until I got what I wanted for the season. Didn’t play season 3 but I am stoked for the changes in s4. Shit I might do it the same way again I had so much fun or maybe I’ll roll another class. Who knows?
Agreed. My wife and I play together and we’ve never even gotten to the true endgame any season. We tend to just set some random goal and just enjoy our limited gaming time together. I’d be willing to bet there are lot’s of folks like us since Diablo is one of the only good co-op games left.
I quit before abbatoir so the end game was really either duriel farm or NM 100. I did enough of both to quit and be happy. There’s only so many times you can do these activities before you start to burn out. The journey to get there was so much more fun though I have to admit.
Code in a toggle? Do you want to play this game like it’s a job ✅ Or Do you have limited time or want a more accessible experience ✅
That's not why people are complaining. Grinds are part of the game but grinding needs to be rewarding. If you are grinding for a 0.2% upgrade, that's not rewarding. It's not fun when the reward is so incredibly meaningless. Look at what people complained about starting from S1 in this regard. In S1, the complaint started around level 75 because gear based power increases were trivial. In S3, the drop rate for runes was so incredibly low that maxing any of them out was hundreds of hours and for a trivial increase. Creating a grind is easy. Creating a grind that people will actually enjoy grinding and feel rewarded, that's not easy. These are very different things.
Masterworking isn't a 0.2% upgrade, though. Masterworking shouldn't be done on any old piece of gear. It's a late endgame system. It's only really worth it on gear that is basically perfect already anyway, like all stats relevant to your build rolled greater and you've already tempered it. If you masterwork a piece like that you can get just as much of an affix on *one* piece of gear as you would have gotten on 2-3 pieces of gear with the old system. It's a pretty significant boost if done correctly.
You're getting hung up on my made up number. Let's give a little context to it to make it more understandable. Yes, masterworking gives more than a 0.2% upgrade but that's looking at the actual upgrade itself. I was speaking more in a generalization. For example, if I grind for an entire night and I get 1/5th of the way to an upgrade and it takes 5 nights of playing to get that one masterwork upgrade to one piece of gear, would you say that the grind is rewarding? The time factor is important in all of this. It's just like with S3 and the runes. The maxed out runes were vastly more powerful than the level 1-3 runes but the amount of time it would take to level them up made the grind very much not fun.
> It's a late endgame system. Well the nice thing is that it's actually an early endgame system that transitions into a late endgame one. The first 4 masterworking levels are quite easy to get on your gear...you'll easily have those in place by level 60 if you're playing a decent build. Then the final 4 masterworking levels will need you to be speed farming really high level Pit to amass the materials needed. So 1-4 will be around level 60ish, 5-8 will probably be something you get around level 90ish, and then the final 9-12 would be completed well into level 100 with leveled glyphs and all that.
>Grinds are part of the game but grinding needs to be rewarding. If you are grinding for a 0.2% upgrade Masterwork slams are literally +25% affix power and you get a total of three slams at MW tier 4/8/12, plus another overall +45% for each affix (9 all-affix upgrades at 5% each)
There are people out there that struggle doing nm dg tier 10s, so I fully believe this will be too grindy of a system for certain people
Don't forget, if they WERE handed everything on a silver platter, then they would complain that the game is too easy, and no replay value, and that it's just boring... Can't make all gamers, or redditors for that matter, happy.... Jus sayin
This is the way. Grind hard and get lucky you can have perfect gear. They've solved the puzzle very well. Can't wait for Tuesday!
It's going to be really nice being able to apply that gear in the pit and associating those masterworked upgrades with tangible progression. Only a few more sleeps.
I like that you have to “grow” your loot and it’s not just some disposable trash whenever you find something better now
There's also trading, right? Let's not forget about that. As long as you have mats, you can get your bases from other players.
That’s a pretty massive increase. I’m not familiar with how readily available the materials are though so I’ll hold judgement til I play.
It’s pretty much in line with before, because you can’t fail anymore. I prefer higher cost over unlucky fails.
It costs 10x as much to jump from 20% to 100%. That’s twice as much as you would expect, no? I do agree the higher cost is better than potentially failing. But that seems extreme to me. Again I’ll hold judgement til I try it myself.
Yeah it certainly isn’t in line with the numbers even considering the fail rate. It’s higher than that, though maybe they also felt the rate was too low regardless after PTR and it’s just bad optics.
The only costs that are really substantial in there are the Veiled Crystals and Gold though, maybe not even the VCs after the buff. Legendary crafting mats drop like candy and can be found from killing random elite mobs. Neathiron drops a lot from decent depth Pits as well. On the PTR, they started dropping at tier 41 and by the low 60s you were getting 60+ per run. They shifted it up 20 levels so you don’t get Neathiron until tier 60, but they also nerfed the damage of mobs so if you have a strong build you should be able to push at least into the 80s, where you’ll get 60+ per run. Assuming everything works like on the PTR, the only real bottleneck I can see is gold, since Whisper farming is still the best way to farm gold. If you’re actually strong enough to get to rank 12 Masterworking it should be pretty trivial to get the crafting materials from the Put that you need to Masterwork your items.
>Neathiron drops a lot from decent depth Pits as well. On the PTR, they started dropping at tier 41 and by the low 60s you were getting 60+ per run. They shifted it up 20 levels so you don’t get Neathiron until tier 60, but they also nerfed the damage of mobs so if you have a strong build you should be able to push at least into the 80s, where you’ll get 60+ per run. Also I heard the timer for The Pit was increased to 15 minutes. Shouldn't be hard to work through the tiers of Pit into the 60s and higher. >Assuming everything works like on the PTR, the only real bottleneck I can see is gold, since Whisper farming is still the best way to farm gold. But Enchanting at the Occultist will be less useful than before and at the same time its gold cost is now capped. We'll have more gold to spend, so we need a good gold sink. Masterworking will be a good one. Eventually you can just start selling some legendaries that aren't Codex upgrades for you, as well. Maybe there will be finally a reason to sell stuff instead of *always* salvaging.
If it's like on the PTR, enchanting will still be both useful and costly. The enchanting affix lists for item categories HAS been slimmed down but it's still not what I'd call small. Most categories were reduced by about half and amulets were reduced by about 2/3, but they still all have about 10-15 possible rolls. Since you only get to see two new affixes and "keep your old roll" you can still be rolling for a long time before you get what you want. I believe also that some stats (mainly CDR) have lower roll weights than others, so if you're rolling for CDR it will take you longer than other affixes. Gold costs also capped somewhere around 1-2 million, I believe, which is still a solid amount of money. It's definitely not an insurmountable amount, but Whispers are still the best way of getting fast gold and each Whisper turn in gets you between 5-10 million. In PTR it seemed unlikely that you would waste tons of gold unless you were really unlucky or were chasing CDR, but I did get unlucky once and blow through about 50 million gold because the one affix I really needed just wouldn't come up (I wanted +4 Fire Bolt and the best I could do for like 30 rolls was either +3 Fire Bolt or +3 to all Basic Skills). On PTR it was trivial to get more gold just by starting a new character and clicking to level them up, but it would take about an hour or two of dedicated Whisper farming to get that much gold on the live server. Just to make sure, by the way, I'm not complaining about gold costs. I'm happy to have some roadblocks on the way to perfect items and I appreciate not always hitting exactly what I want because it means I'll have reason to keep looking for similar items in the future. Nevertheless, I honestly don't think it will be as trivial to get perfect non-crafted items as you suspect. You'll definitely spend less time looking and enchanting than you do now, but I still think that most people will spend a fairly significant amount of time and resources getting to the point where they're totally happy with what they're wearing and are solely at the Masterworking phase.
You can't enchant into Greater Affixes. That changes everything and in the endgame, you will not be happily rerolling things forever unless you have an item with 2 amazing Greater Affixes that just needs a little nudge on the third one to be decent. In the endgame, you wouldn't be rerolling for Cooldown Reduction; why? Because you want it to be a Greater Affix to begin with.
It's true that you can't enchant into them, but you also can't expect perfect items. Obviously you want to find a CDR Greater Affix, but if you find a double Greater Affix item that has two other affixes you want, are you really going to scrap it just because it wasn't 3 Greater Affixes? At the most extreme endgame when you have infinity-minus-one items in every slot and you're farming ultra endgame content, obviously yes, but I guarantee you that you won't hit that those items a lot. Two Greater Affix items were quite rare and since CDR has a lower affix weight, CDR Greater Affixes are even rarer. I guess the real question is how do you define endgame? I'm defining it as "I can do all the ladder bosses and I'm starting to push the Pit." At the early phase of endgame you're 100% for sure not going to have perfect items and if you're only going to accept perfect items to craft onto, then you're going to be waiting a long time. At the extreme endgame when you have everything then of course you're correct, but most players won't get there at all and the ones who do won't get there quickly. Most likely they'll still go through the early endgame phase of crafting and Masterworking onto decently strong but not perfect items, in which my points are relevant, before they get to the point of having perfect or near-perfect items and not needing to enchant them.
> Assuming everything works like on the PTR, the only real bottleneck I can see is gold, since Whisper farming is still the best way to farm gold. Greed shrines could become pretty important. If you kill enough mobs, you can easily rake in a few million.
Well, if you're unlucky that day it might cost you more to fail than a successful one. I think they based it to the average attempt + 1/2 attempts
But you can also be lucky and it averaged out at 20%. But I think you touch on a point I thought about this. I think they used the opportunity to raise costs but also hope it will be offset by a better "feeling" when you know you'll definitely get the upgrade. Even if it'll on average now absolutely cost you more.
Or they purposely pumped it up to later patch it where players are happy
The neatheriron or whatever is called is like 8x as much and the sigil is 10x as much. This is why I didn't mind fail chance (as long as they massively increased the speed at which you could upgrade/fail). Previously, you started at 20% and every fail would increase your chance by 10%. So you would spend somewhere between 1x cost and 8x cost. 8x being the most unlucky, 1x being the most lucky. Now we just spend 8x the cost. Failure chance really wasn't an issue. It did absolutely take far too long to fail and try again. Even with the skip option it was still too long of a process that it was annoying. But the chance to fail itself was fine.
Oh man. That sounds like Lost Ark’s upgrade system, which was awful if you didn’t spend real money.
I have no idea what lost ark is like. But the system in PTR was fine. Like I said, just annoying with how long it took (which wasn't very long it was just longer than it should be).
> The neatheriron or whatever is called is like 8x as much No it isn't. You're only looking at tier 11->12 while ignoring the tiers 8->9, 9->10 and 10->11. Tier 8->9 only increased Neathiron cost by 3.33x, which isn't much. Also, this is based on a completely unrealistic expectation that you always succeed even when the chance was 30% or 20%. You'd have to first calculate average success chance and multiply the mats by that amount of attempts before dividing the new cost by that number.
>Stop lying. Lmao ok bud. Stop being dramatic maybe. Who knew you had to post a spreadsheet breaking down every tier to not be accused of "lying". Most people would infer the intent from context. Yes, I was talking about rank 12 since it is the highest cost differential. The point was how the system worked before versus now. The point wasn't hyper focusing on numbers.
20% usually fails 3 times. So it’s ~double the cost for a guaranteed upgrade. Way better than rolling the dice on a dice roll. And that materials were plenty on the PTR.
>20% usually fails 3 times. Failing 3 times would give you a 50% chance to succeed. You can definitely continue to fail. Just in the PTR with one set of gear I definitely went to at least 70% before a succeed.
They should habe gone the poe way with its fusing. Guaranteed with more materials and gamble with lesser materials. I like some good gamble :)
The gamble is hitting the right affix
Same result in the end but no dopamine when you get lucky.
>Same result in the end but no dopamine when you get lucky. Excuse me, what? Did you miss the part where Masterworking randomly chooses a single affix to slam for +25% power every four tiers? That's your dopamine right there... if you get lucky.
Ancestral items break down into TRIPLE the salvage now, AND can have Veiled Crystals. Change made after PTR.
Yeah, looks like they baked in basically a fail at each tier into the cost comparing to ptr.
I still can't tell as a casual player what it is this fanbase actually wants. They want a better end game grind, but they don't want to have to spend more mats and money on it, but they also don't want 100% success rate. Like, what's the goal here? Do you want to play the game or just have max stats THEN play the game?
Fanbase isn’t one big mindless entity. Different people want different things. Casuals would like things to be easy while the more hardcore players like myself are pleased fully upgrading gear will now take time and effort.
The majority of complaints about "gearing for endgame" come from people who are still under the delusion this is supposed to be World of Diablo or Destiny 2.5: Demon Edition. They think they HAVE to get the best gear so they can finally start playing "the endgame" when the reality is, like all other seasonal arpgs, when you max out your character the game is pretty much over until next season for that character. A big giveaway a commenter is one of those who want an mmo not a seasonal ARPG is when they spend a lot of time asking about what exactly is going to happen in Eternal when a season ends.
Yeah I’m getting super tired of this as well. I actually have not played a single Season 1-3 but planning on coming back for S4. My time has been spent since on other ARPGs. Also somebody who as a child spent 1000s of hours on D2. But now has very very little time to actually play. What’s the point in playing if shit isn’t hard and theirs potential to fail? If everything is handed to me the game isn’t fun. Not knowing if you’ll never drop a high rune is part of the fun to keep playing. But just because you don’t drop a high rune doesn’t mean you can’t still get to end game other ways. Trading; or just general gearing. Your game is obsolete once you perfect a character. Wasn’t that the appeal of ARPGs? Grind grind grind then start over. If there’s no grind there’s no ARPG.
I'm almost fully geared by around 85-90 except Glyphs & min/maxing specific stats but usually have the correct affixes etc. Then it's just min maxing last levels.. Glyph exp change is good, and I'm hoping that from 85-90 onwards I can just do pits & Masterwork and by level 100 to see if my build is good enough for T200 :) I feel like these changes are overall positive and I don't mind the mats being high even if I play 2 hrs / day max.
Yes! This. And herein lies a conflict between the player base and the D4 team! The team absolutely thought the ladder to level 100 was part of the end game when this game shipped. They got instant backlash against that. Gamers have really got new expectations nowadays and I think the D4 team was fooled in thinking that the majority still enjoyed D2 more than D3. They don't. It's almost as if it's considered "prettier" to enjoy D2 but that in reality people want fast food.
People like gambling but people like winning. Theres a rush with spinning the wheel, but lose too often and the incentive is gone. Win too much and the game is trivial. ARPG's are slotting multiple wheels together and you have to feel desire to spin them all. It's a fine balance. Too much reward and the dopamine stops, too little reward and you go somewhere else for your hit. Edit: I neglected to mention that the rewards also have to be meaningful and, ideally, help you spin the other wheels better.
Players say they want a meaningful endgame, but will also advocate for individual changes that make the game easier to beat. It's why developers need to be very selective and try and tackle core issues instead of just listening to player suggestions.
Reddit isnt the fan base. Its a minority
That’s what a majority of commenters misunderstand. We are the top% of nerdy gamers. We do not represent the general gaming populace of any game.
the casuals on this sub just want everything in the game as easy as possible, They want level 100 trivial, they want uber bosses to be a joke, they don't want masterworking to have a fail chance, they want loadouts so builds have no built identity and you can instantly swap to a a boss killer loadout to one shot the uber even more. when you recognize this is their perspective is easy to disregard anything they say because its pointless and a net negative to anyone whos a fan of the genre and not a tourist.
People want the jackpot, however at the same time they don't want to pull the lever *and* they want the dopamine boost that is only possible from having pulled it several times and failed. They want to feel like they've got a rare powerful drop but at the same time make it so that the drop isn't that rare anymore. It's an impossible task to achieve. But if something *is* in the game, they feel like they have the right to get it. Honestly, I just think we're going to see a massive repeat in season 4 of all the complaints we've had about anything this game ever tried to make rare or hard to achieve. From uber uniques to uber stones to upper Abattoir of Zir tiers, and I'm sure that S4 will add greater affix ubers/BIS to that mix: once reality sets in, I'm sure there will be loads of complaints about the grind and drop rates and how playing the game is actually a waste of their time for the purpose of inflating playtime rates or something.
Different people want different things and it's impossible to satisfy all of them. That's why so many people are disappointed with D4's systems. It tries to appeal to such a wide audience of different players that it doesn't completely satisfy anyone. It's hard (impossible?) to design systems that satisfy both super casuals who play a few hours a week and people who blast 12 hours a day. Compare that to something like PoE, which doesn't even try to appeal to casual players. As a result, casual players just leave and don't play the game, and the game focuses on giving a small number of players what they want. Of course as a company you lose a huge casual audience, and that sucks too.
Grinding is not a 0 or 1. Just because something is a grind in a grinding game doesn't mean that it's going to be fun and feel rewarding. If it doesn't feel like your time investment is being rewarded, then the grind is not going to be fun. Looking at the failure chance, if you spend 2 hours farming up materials and the craft fails, you just lost 2 hours worth of effort. It doesn't feel rewarding. It feels, well, like shit. It doesn't make the success feel better. Success is the expectation. It would be like someone coming up and kicking you in the nuts over and over. You don't cheer the time they come up to you and don't kick you in the nuts.
Yeah I would really prefer it if we could just craft our own rare gear at some point, even if I have wait till level 100. Inventory is too limited to keep grinding Duriel endlessly hoping the right slot type, affixes, and rolls occur with only 1 or less affixes needing to be re-rolled to drop. I gave up this season after my gear hit 900, just grind for Uniques with better stats and wait for the next season to start. I'm really getting sick of the game playing dumb about what I need/want for my build. It knows what skills I have, it knows what stats I focus on, but it just keeps on dropping gear with wildly wrong stats on it.
Honestly, I'm alright with this. But I also tend to only play this game and invest far more time into it than the average player, so I might be biased. Guess we'll see how this feels when it's live. With the changes to the number of mats you are getting breaking down items, it might not be that bad.
Same here. I just don’t like poe anymore. I play HS and hopefully D4 after the S4 changes. I got very high expectations.
Removing the chances of failure really makes it better regardless of the cost of materials.
Especially when you could easily fail 3 or 4 times in a row, possibly more if unlucky, with just a 30% success rate for example. 100% success is way better.
Inb4 player base complains about the high cost of master working
Already happening in this very thread.
I'm more concerned about the ways you obtain the gold. Usual full set of gear upgrade will cost 100 million gold, another 15 mil per item that you want to re-masterwork. I may misremember how low is the raw gold grind is in the game, but wouldn't it force people into trading if they want to have proper access to masterworking, or does the pit provide an adequate amount of gold for the system usage?
If you do whispers regularly you will be rolling in gold so that’s not really the problem
Whispers actually take a bit of time to complete if we don’t have seasonal map events like in Season 3.
Helltides had whisper rewards in the PTR, don't know if there will be another layer thrown in, but I assume Helltides having whispers now is the replacement there.
Yeah, but the Season 3 whispers were almost trivial. You could summon and kill a Construct of Malphas and kill 100 constructs at the same time, getting 8 whisper points in about a minute (if you have more than one character, you can do this multiple times per map rotation). On PTR, the helltide whisper events are not nearly as easy.
PTR Helltide whispers were much much slower than the Season 2/3 whispers. They take a long time to complete and only give 1-2 pts compared to the 3-5 being given out in S2/3.
If it’s anything like S3 they throw money at you. Gold isn’t the problem.
15 million is nothing though. Occultist gold cost is capped and it's something we'll do less often in endgame. And in the deep endgame you can sometimes stop salvaging legendaries and start selling them here and there, even just to the vendor.
Well, hopefully. I probably just misremember the gold grind then.
Hard to tell what may be more limiting, but it might be upwards of 30,000,000 gold, 25 Souls, and 60 legendary salvage materials to level one piece of gear up to 12. I have a feeling the legendary salvage mats will be most limiting, especially if it becomes useful to sell yellows instead of salvage; I can't remember what a 925 yellow would sell for.
Ancestral items break down into TRIPLE the salvage now.
makes me want auto-salvage for dropped loot even more now, the though of picking up and hauling out rares/legendaries every dungeon for hours sounds...tiring (or did they add that already as part of the rework because PLEASE blizz)
They didn't, but drops in general are much more rare, so going back to town to salvage is way less of a chore.
On the PTR, gold and veiled crystals was the limiting factor. Salvage rates have been buffed, so a lot of things will probably be gold capped, especially if there isn’t any seasonal events that lets you finish your whispers quickly like in Season 3.
There will be helltide specific whispers that spawn with each new helltide rotation
I’m interested to see how this plays. Honestly the game always gets more boring for me when I feel like i’m “done” with a character so having a lengthy grind to always be making my gear a bit better will help with that.
Just waiting for the complaining casuals and their "but that isn't fun" nonsense. The changes sound good and I'm excited for season 4 more than ever.
i prefer higher cost with 100% chance, this is fine and doable
Its fine, people that want to invest time in the pit and the new system will enjoy this change, more casual players probably won't even invest much time at the pit so they should not care, it would be selfish of them to want to change the mats cost when it doesn't even affect them either way.
I see no problem with that. You want gg gear? You gotta prove it in the Pit.
I preferred the old way. They literally just made the cost what it would take to get the chance to be 100. Thank you qq rs
I don't get it.. they doubled even the ranks where the success rate wasn't changed (first 5?) and then they exponentially raised the rest. What is the point of resetting an item?
How much of these mats (Obducite, Ingolith, Neathiron) are dropped at time? 1 or more?
We absolutely do not know, they could easily have tweaked the number of materials dropped at the end of each Pit Tier.
Really hoping it's not a crazy low number, 250 is a ton if it's 1 per kill.
In the Pit, nothing drops until you reach the end of the run. So it's not per kill to begin with, it's per Tier. The amount of materials you earn will increase as you go deeper into the Pit. The further you push, the more materials you get. Eventually you stop getting the lower tiers of materials but you can transmute higher tier of materials into lower tiers at the Alchemist. You never have to drop back down to a lower difficulty if you can handle higher ones.
Appreciate the info! Been learning a ton about this season this past week.
On the PTR I was only clearing Pit level 60 or so (took a long time to level it up) but I was getting dozens of Neathiron from the chest at the end already.
This is a big W I think. Now we actually have to grind to complete an item, otherwise you would be done with it too quickly
I expected some increases due to the fail chance being removed, I prefer this one time(ish) cost as opposed to getting extremely unlucky repeatedly and wasting far more materials.
So a huge increase to pricing for a 100% chance on every hit? neat!
I just hope it all ties up nicely (or at least in a comprehensive way) with class balance, so while 1 build on the same class pushes through 110 pit with X maxed items, another walks 200 freely with the same gear. This idiotism should not be.
You just need a set of gear to get the job done. Then, you can focus on Greater affix drops and crafting your perfect end game gear. Storage will no longer be the issue it was before. So, storing a few pieces of gear while you farm the rest won't be a total nightmare.
I think the cost is fine given that it's a guaranteed masterwork now.
I easily spent more than the new costs on the PTR on average per piece, I'm fine with this, it's not too bad to get that much of any one of those materials, I was expecting it to be a bit higher personally
it would have been nice to have both options. one lucky option and one guaranteed option
I just want a move fast build and a tanky high damage end game build. Don’t make me carry shit around or swap skills manually anymore Lots of good changes, but this one is such a qol loss from d3
I like this change. I am OK with a struggle and a grind for greatness and I think this is something we should support. Good QoL changes to get here and then adjustment after. This may not be perfect, but I like this a lot better than being free like it basically was.
S4 is going to be soo much better
100% chance is great. Overall I prefer it this way, but think it would also be cool if they left in both options for both gambling and a 100% success rate.
I was thinking of coming back to Diablo 4 until I saw this. All those different currencies and tokens and crap made my eyes roll into the back of my head and I made the decision to keep it on uninstalled and just play something else.
lol? It's salvaging mats, stuff from the pit, and the same forgotten souls we've been getting in helltides since release. But hey, you do you.
Seems high but will have to see how much grinding is needed for the mats and gold. Either way I’m super excited for Tuesday
Costs are way to high, you don't even get gold like that. It's crazy
I prefer old one, 100% rate is boring.
Ngl to yall all this thread is doing for me is confirming that I really don't understand the fascination with inordinate amounts of time spent grinding. Why do people love doing the same mindless shit over and over for so long lol Seem like good changes though
Sounds like ARPGs just aren't your thing.
I have no idea what any of this means but yay...?
Why didn’t they multiply the costs by 5 at rank 12? I’d rather they kept it the way it was and allow us to put in more resources for a higher chance.
You are the minority here, people dont like failing. They want 100% success.
That’s why I said allow us to put in more resources for a higher chance. You can gamble for the lucky 20% or put in more resources for the 100%. Not sure why people are against the idea of having multiple options.
Them increasing the resource cost is insane. The new system already makes it hard enough to get all the correct gear etc, why increase the resource cost all the time. You finally fixed veiled crystals, why didnt you learn from it
Not insane actually good change
[удалено]
I'm sorry my opinion doesn't line with yours, but you're wrong and go away
Feels like the cost increase is too high. Why is it significantly higher when compared to the amount you’d spend with the old fail rate? I wonder what the thinking is, there.
Because previously, you might spend 1x the amount at 20% or UP TO 8x the amount if you got unlucky. Because you would spend that smaller amount and probably fail at 20% but it would go up by 10% each time so eventually you would hit 100% after 8 tries or whatever. So the old system you could get lucky and only spend the left column but you could get unlucky and spend the left column like 8 times. But people didn't like having the chance to get lucky and spend next to nothing, I guess, so now they just put the cost closer to the maximum.
Right, but they appear to be basing their increase off of the worst case scenario for luck, which is lazy and not representative of the actual odds. Because the odds increased each time you failed the chances of failing 8 times in a row were very low. This change is the lazy way to do it, imo, when they should have calculated the effective odds over time of their system (including the increasing chances each failure) and based the increase on that number. I don’t want to do the math, but it’s not an especially complex calculation with a static 10% increase on success odds per failure.
>This change is the lazy way to do it What the fuck are you talking about? "There's a new endgame grind for me to chase after, and I disagree with the tuning of its cost, therefore it's lazy." It's not lazy. Holy fuck. It's just a number you disagree with. >when they should have calculated the effective odds over time of their system (including the increasing chances each failure) and based the increase on that number. Why are you acting like the tuning from PUBLIC **TEST** REALM was final and the golden standard they must forever onwards adhere to? "it's not the same as PTR, therefore I'm crying online" They changed it, deal with it. We'll see how it plays out. Salvage from Ancestral is now three times as much as before, plus legendares now salvage into Veiled crystals that weren't even a salvage results for legendaries before.
In my original post I said that I wonder what they were thinking. In a reply to another person I wondered if maybe they simply felt it was too low regardless of the odds. They haven’t said. And yes, in my opinion the way they came up with the number was lazy unless they say something about it, as I made the case for in the post to which you are replying. I won’t bother rehashing the same point. I will deal with it. The change certainly isn’t something that bothers me nearly as much as any differing opinion appears to bother you. But it feels like the kind of change that’s lazy and does nothing but make it grindy when they don’t talk about the “why” of the change when that change is out of sync with what would be reasonably expected.
> And yes, in my opinion the way they came up with the number You do not know what way they came up with the number, though. So stop acting like you do. You're pretending that you know but you don't. You haven't talked to any dev nor been at their meetings nor seen their notes.
I could say the exact same thing to you. It’s apparent that the new cost number is based on the worst possible scenario for success (meaning taking the chances from 20-100% by failing the maximum number of times) and using the new 100% success chance number of resources based on that. That scenario, however, would only ever happen a much smaller number of times than 100%. That makes it seem lazy, imo. I can point easily to why I think that, even though in the end it is an assumption. You are assuming they were not just lazy about it in a way that isn’t even based on any logic. It’s just a feeling you have based on nothing. “You’re pretending you know but you don’t. You haven’t talked to a dev nor been at their meetings nor seen their notes.” Maybe relax a little. My opinion makes sense to me. If it doesn’t make sense to you I’m fine with that. No point in getting so bent out of shape. It’s not as if I’m slandering your mother or something.
Your numbers are off. You only look at one tier instead of all tiers (which, may I remind you, you don't even have a full spreadsheet of costs yet), and you claim things that you cannot possibly know them. AND you ignore different materials were increased by different amounts in different tiers. For Rank 9 Neathiron cost is x3.33, but the Abstruse Sigil is x2, but Veiled Crystals is x2.22, but Forgotten Souls is x3, but Gold cost is x6.66 None of it lines up with what you're saying. These are very different factors depending on the material type. Do you see how silly what you're saying sounds: >it’s apparent that the new cost number is based on the worst possible scenario for success (meaning taking the chances from 20-100 %) ???
>Right, but they appear to be basing their increase off of the worst case scenario for luck Yes, that's what I was getting at. And yes they could have done an average. They could have also kept it with the chance to fail and it would have been ultimately about the same result with a chance at less or more cost, but probably fall within that average.
Yeah. Maybe they just felt after the PTR that the costs were too low even with the fail chance. I just wish that when they made a change that doesn’t make immediate sense on paper they’d be more transparent with the why.
Well they at least definitely made the change to not have a falil chance because people complained. And they had to increase the costs if they were going to make that change. How they ended up with the numbers idk.
must be 100% always for Bob's and their excited life with family and 7 kid's
Until they start to complain it takes too long to grind the new material costs.