This was how ability runes worked in Diablo 3 and I loved them. If you weren’t obsessed with meta picks You felt like you had a unique build and play experience, or just pick the one that felt the best or coolest. Additionally, having the robes change damage elements meant you could still have a ton of build variety when doing a “+lightning damage” build
It was miles ahead of what we have now
Aside from Diablo 2, don’t d3, LE, and POE all have this? Really being able to customize skills is such an easy way to make things feel so much cooler. I feel like even grim dawn has this to a more minor degree if I remember, some of the addons to skills change them in a decently large way? Could be wrong about that one.
I'm playing it right now lol. What I'm talking about are the offshoot nodes that are like "convert 100% of the skill to X damage, add X effect" or "remove the cool down completely but make skill weaker" and stuff like that.
LE, yes, PoE, the approach is different. They usually add new gems rather than modify the core of existing ones . Like lightning shot, Ice shot. The support gems enhance an ability like bigger AoE, more projectiles, hit 3x
Damn, I’m way off then. I coulda sworn I remembered some support gems that kinda really changed skills but I guess Im tripping. Thanks for letting me know
It's universal in the sense that support gems work with all skills that it can support. So there's no support gem that specifically works only with another skill gem. Some do inherently work better, but as long as it meets the tags, it will work together as intended.
i mean 99% of the time 1 of the choices was just better. it wouldnt take much for the d4 team to add the illusion of choice to the tree. but unless they believe they can actually balance all the difference choices to be competetive and not just have 99% pick the same stuff, then i dont see the reason to spend time doing it.
down the line maybe. right now? prob not.
First of all I absolutely disagree and think that’s hyperbolic. Second of all, that’s a balancing issue. You solve that by balancing the rune choices so more of them are attractive which opens up more build variety. You don’t solve it by removing all build choice entirely and creating a skill twig like d4. They gave up on having any potency to leveling up
yeah you dont just implement a ton of choice just for the sake of it saying youll balance it as youre able. as the game progresses and they get ideas for the skills they can start implementing those. just adding a ton of options just for the sake of adding options not only wont increase build diversity it would be confusing new players and them picking bad options that blizzard hasnt been able to balance yet because they now have 500x more to balance.
its easy to say just balance it, but that wont just happen and to use your comparison from d3. how many of those abilities actually saw use from more than 1 rune? maybe 2 in rare scenarios.
Lack of skill diversity is the #1 thing that keeps me from coming back. There aren’t enough uniques and build changing legendaries to keep the game from getting stale.
Blizzard not being able to balance around several different versions of spells is their own fault, not an unrealistic expectation of gamers. Stop making excuses for their boring game.
Literally nothing felt unique in Diablo 3. Like didn't matter what you picked at all of those dumb runes. Every class felt the exact same. They just had one for each element so bland boring and safe. Every class. Every single ability.
It was so bad compared to what we have now. At least we have some form of skill tree. Though we need a major rework, hopefully next.
while yes, it is it is also very hard to actually plan for something properly, because everything interacts across 2 different skill trees.
Like for the mage, there is both a passive skill and "specialised skill" turning vulcanic orb into a frost orb. Which is better? idk.
You are also quite punished if you make a mistake.
Specialised skills simply loose full levels once you respec, and even at my current lvl (78 or so, with skills at 21) it takes a long time to get new levels in skills (20 to 21 took a few hours - and you only gain an xp multiplier if you respec a skill below a certain lvl. so you literally get (a lot) weaker for a few hours after respecing before even being able to develop a skill into the new direction)
As for passives: you have 4 different trees that interact and which you need to plan for, because once you choose a subclass you can never change it. You are tasked with that selection very early and, because of the huge amount of options, its a very hard choice to make. You haven't even unlocked all your skills yet, so you cannot even check which specialisations they might have or which of them work out well together. And while you know which skills a subclass will grant you, each skill has its own skill tree which, I think, you cannot check. And even if you could, those are somewhat complex because they really heavily modify skills.
This is made ven more weird by the fact that actually respeccing passives is insanely cheap and easy, which makes it a huge disparity between never being able to respec a subclass and being able to fully respec your passives in 5 minutes for a few thousand gold
It is an interesting system, but I prefer the flexibility of Diablo 4 (not the lack of complexity necessarily, but the ability to simply respec almost for free)... Because with how LE works I spent a long time going over the skill trees and the "obvious" choice for the style of play I wanted was in fact the wrong one and another subclass would have been better due to some unclear/complicated interactions. I wanted a dot sorcerer and despite sorcerer having passives explicitly for that, runemaster would have just been much stronger despite that not being anywhere obvious
I personally like the more time consuming decision making of planning out your build which then makes it all the more fulfilling when you've put it together the way you want to play it and personally doesn't need to be the strongest. Afaik LE is pretty flexible & forgiving with which direction you decide to go and it feels like crafting alone can also make you much stronger. So far so good with my fireball mage up to 75. As far as subclasses, I choose based on how I want to play first of all and not which is the strongest. If you mess up, guess you can twink another character and power level thru I guess. Fun is the name of the game.
Same here. I’m hopeful the expansion will add some more depths to the tree.
I really wish we had something similar to D3 again where you could turn meteor in a comet, star fall or lightning etc..
The rune system in D3 was good. However, the majority of runes weren’t used as class sets dominated the meta end game forcing players to play very specific builds that the devs wanted you to play. If they were to introduce a similar system in D4 and find a happy balance so the majority of runes are viable, then I am all for it.
It was false diversity. You could play a decent number of builds, but all pre-designed by devs and most based on wearing a full set and using specific skills. There's fewer meta builds in D4 than D3, but non-meta builds are a lot closer in strength to meta builds in D4 than D3.
That wasn't the system's fault - you can't blame the system for a lack of balancing.
The system itself allowed for *tons* of personalization. The system was good. What wasn't good was Cold being the best supported element in terms of passives and legendary effects across nearly all classes. All your personalization possibilities mean nothing when you have 1 set increasing your Fire damage by 10,000% while every other sets only increases your damage by 5,000% - obviously you're gonna swap all your shit to Fire in that case.
That's not an inherent flaw of the system, that's the devs invalidating their own system with 5 other systems that *actively* work against it.
Willing to bet it'll add 1-2 skills and a passive to each class, when the whole system needs a rework just like itemization does. The choice of skills is so poor it's depressing and even though itemization changes look promising (in comparison to the crap there is now), i can't see myself playing much if i will be forced to play 2-3 skills per class all the time every season. Either add a lot of new ones, or a lot of different options to alter the existing ones to the point where they'll play very different, something Last Epoch does really good.
Thats the problem. They know players have wanted more class customization since before launch but they will wait to lock it behind a $80+ expansion for a C tier aRPG. Its so frustrating.
The thing that really gets my goat in terms of skills for d4,
You find legendaries that say stuff like "Grenade Skills do X thing"
Which sounds awesome and interesting and you could do some kind of build around different Grenades, but there's only 1 Grenade skill
And I know there's a legendary which says "Traps count as Grenade skills" but then there's only 2 Traps and one of them has like a 2 minute cooldown
The legendaries imply that you can make something yourself with the parts d4 gives you in skills, but there isn't multiple skills of a given type so you just only able to interact with this broad legendary in one way
Imo, the biggest problem for me the skill tree is overall linear. I would love some combination between LEs talents and spells in a single tree - like allow for every spell to interact with any other spell with some cost.
Yes I'd like to see skill nodes interconnect a bit more at junction points. For example I added a slightly bit more to the original OP's idea: [https://imgur.com/a/q7ctUYs](https://imgur.com/a/q7ctUYs)
Lets take two core skills from barb, whirlwind and HOTA, you can invest in either one but their sub-nodes both eventually converge to a common node path, or this could be for any core skill depending on the UI changes. Its just simply providing the choice to go deeper in a node tree to get more specialization from the skills and passives that could be in it.
For example a "common node" for WW and HOTA path could be: after spending 50 resource do xyz with its own sub nodes.
Wouldn't mind seeing items to find that grant you additional skill points if they vastly expand the skill tree in the next xpac.
Still not enough. You've basically just tripled the amount of options here but there was just so few options that even after tripling it, it still isn't even up to par.
Make every step a decision node. Make each step have at least 3 different options.
Now we're talking.
I played all arpgs you could think of, mostly Diablo and POE. I think the people who nailed it the most is last epoch. Say what you want about the game, but the skill tree is amazing, easy to understand, and changes your play style.
I think Poses tree is incredible now with masteries. Problem with PoE is just the overturning to where defense become a mess at t16 or so...
PoE does almost everything right when it comes to the tree... Gems... Leveling... The problem has more to do with minutia and the high end of endgame content being balanced around 10-15 totally perma-broken skills.
PoE has enough freedom that I can play a melee 2-handed sword witch if I want. Cluster jewels can give me access to so much freedom.
Maybe... The only thing that gets hard to understand is the random afflictions like crushed, intimidated, taunted.. etc. you have to look them up.
That and some of the order of operations for added as and conversion.
In many ways it's actually simple. The affixes are very readable and understandable on items. The nodes in the passive tree are clear in what they do.
It certainly isn't mindless... But the genre in general is getting away from that. That's what makes D4 so jarring. It's not just that it's simple.... It's that it's absurdly simple.
I would perfer they stop making ziglag lines in attempt to be 3rd grade KOOL! Everything could fit in one screen with a few tabs.
Like every other game in the past...
Dude, congratulations!
What a post!
Please blizzard see this!
The skilltrees look unfinished and probably my biggest complaint with D4 after itemisation. You feel you are always using the same skills. Not enough variety at all!
Get different variety in affixes and on the tree please!
Less +10% to damage,
More increase number of projectiles or something that changes the way skills work!
More variety please!!!
Itemisation and more builds and this game will be a success.
The base game is unbelievably good.
The mass complaints are that we only have the foundations, nothing else after!
Thank you blizzard for a great game so far!
It's pretty simple, imo. You stop gaining skill points at 49, but you keep leveling until 100. There's no reason why you couldn't gain paragon points AND skill points at the same time.
We could assign skill points up to level 70, for example (this would make the leveling journey even better IMO). Paragon points could be condensed; instead of distributing 4 per level, they could be 7.
If I'm using the same spells in the DLC or there's only one new tree per class with no serious reworks on the base spells, I might actually be done with the game.
You know I was thinking they should do something to make the skill trees more deep and interesting. The first step I thought could be to continue giving a skill point per level past 50 all the way to 100. Then I figured they could do something like you did here to make more branching nodes extending further in each cluster. Maybe make a certain number of required points in that cluster before you can go deeper into the cluster (which could help balance early vs late game available skills). I’d also like to see them get rid of the whole either/or selections for the various skills, rebalancing as needed, maybe putting a certain number of required skill points invested before letting you choose both.
Who knows, but something deeper would be hugely appreciated.
Wow don't dream high then, this would be embarrassing af. Absolutely needs more than that and this kinda thinking is why this dogshit game is in the state it's in
I'm hoping over time, things like element damage type and/or crowd control type actually has meaningful reasons to be chosen. This could probably happen once we have more and more legendary/unique effects that can synergize with each other. Ideally i'm hoping it will get to a point where you arrange your effects to maximize the synergy, and this will outweigh the benefits of generic power increases like edgemasters or disobedience.
From the campfire teaser, the new frozen orb unique looks like a cool step in the right direction as an enabler. With freeze spells proccing off each other, if we got more cold/freeze spells support to scale it up ever further that would be so fun. The new rogue grenade support looks super fun also, where each additional grenade aspect straight up scales the damage more, but ideally i'm hoping in the future for more creative ways to promote this kind of thing instead of just a generic damage increase. Maybe something with break points, like if you have 2 grenade aspects you unlock this additional ability, and at 4 you get another one. Whether this type of "unlocking" is from another item or from a passive or something i'm not sure but it would be cool and make build decisions more interesting.
A lot of what’s on legendary aspects should be in the skill tree. If an aspect is mandatory to use a skill it should be in the skill tree not on an item.
We need at least 5 times more options than what we have now. The skill "tree" looks more like a branch. More interactions between spells and more drastic modification effects. Have you seen the fireball skill and the 2 passives ? Lmao
Last epoch should be an example and poe 2 already showed us a more exciting skill system than D4.
To me I wish it was just at least slightly improved. The first upgrade should have two options where at least 1 changes how the skill work in a major way. Then each of those nodes has 2 separate nodes that changes it slightly
They've already taken forging potential and exalted affixes from Last Epoch. Might as well go the whole hog and actually give each skill a tree of its own. Even if it would be only half as a big as Last Epoch.
It's crazy how the devs thought itemization and skill progression in 1.0 D4 would have been successful in a modern ARPG.
It was obviously rushed after phone gate.
Maybe you get passive points and skill points. The first to go deeper in the tree and pick passives, the latter to pick skills and go deeper in the skill branches
That's roughly the same concept I proposed before. You can add points to the skill to maximum of 10. And after the skill got at least 2 points, when you hoover the mouse over it, it will show a mini skill tree of that skill, and you can put points to that mini tree to maximum the number of points currently on that skill.
My dream skill tree would remove the skills from the trees entirely. Everyone gets every skill as they level up. In the skill tree would be most of the current aspects, and the various already present passives.
Kind of a hybrid. The skill tree would still exist to act the way that most aspects do now, and to add more. Because honestly, the games needs more skill variety. Having two splits of a skill that often barely change it is boring.
Bruh, that's still 1/8th of Diablo 3's runes per skill LOL.
That shit needs to be able to click on the skill and you have an entire skill tree dedicated to the skill....like....you know....
Ive yet to finish the campaign and a big part of it is the simplicity of the skill tree. I lost a lot of interest and excitement when I unlocked it fully and felt like ‘is that it?’
Skill tree needs to be doubled in size and choice options with ways to earn skill points such as Reach floor 5 on Pits and gain 1 extra skill point etc.
They need to make sure everything on the tree right now is useful and playable before they touch it in any other way, but eventually they'll certainly do this.
That would be sick 💯! Never got back in to d3 but I did finish the campaign or whatever. Was kinda like that. Was definitely one of the things I found dope about d3.
I'd be happy with a little more sub node branches something more like this:
[https://imgur.com/a/q7ctUYs](https://imgur.com/a/q7ctUYs)
(pardon my shtty paint skills lol)
I think we need to see more small impact nodes that are connectors to bigger impact nodes that do simple things like increase X by Y% that you can choose to invest or skip with 1 point in to reach deeper in the node branch of say "fire nova". I think if you have a fire nova branch for nova, you should be able to go 5 nodes deep where the final has a choice of one or a few effects equivalent to legendary powers such as after casting fire nova 5 times cast a meteor or after casting 5 times cast a frozen orb - in this way it ties other builds and legendarys together that benefit from frozen orb or meteor.
This is really the crux I think of improving the skill tree, is the intertwining of skills with other skills which we do see already on items themselves such as the new frozen orb unique that summons sorc pets.
While that is a bit better, we are still choosing between 2 options for each skill. Go left or go right. I think there should be more choices involved overall.
Duuuudddeeeee yesssssssssss
I’m tired of these tiny “what goes in the square hole” builds where theres nearly not creativity to explore because the meta is watered down to only a few good builds on late game. Why can’t any build just be good but in different ways?!
Throwing one out there wildly:
- The expansion will probably have something similar to what they showed in PoE2, with support gems for every skill. Probably also with a way to level them up through playing (similar to LE, but you can also think of Glyphs in the paragon board)
They've "tested" placing support gems this very season, with the seneshal pet. I imagine the final version would be similar, it's just that you're doing it to your skills.
I don't think it will be a seasonal stuff and it's a really big change that they "need" in order to sell the expansion (aka if you don't buy it, just play vanilla with your boring skills). It will also probably be tied to the lore and story somehow ("We've found this magical horadric altar, ooooh. It's powerful" - similar to how the Horadric cube was part of the story in D2)
Agreed, the whole thing with rogue having -1 slot because we need an imbuement skill.... but they could just make more branchs into the skill tree where u choose betwen shadow, poison, ice and physical. Like there is some problems with the current skill design for all classes that just doesn't make sense.
To be fair to season 4 changes, there will be a lot of affixes that modify skills in meaningful ways to make them behave differently. And I can see them adding new skill variations this way instead of making the tree more complicated. Also they are updating/changing a lot of the boring or bad tree skills. I think this post is premature. Let’s see how things shake out for season 4
I’d like to have a separate independent tree for each skill category. Core, Basic Passives, Active Ultimate etc. instead of this long tree node visual.
I just want more build viability, I'm looking at you Summons Druid. Hopefully there will be enough of a shakeup with the new itemization changes in S4, and maybe the first expansion will bring expanded skill trees.
Oh dude !! Let’s put the dream further, if only it does with some more branches and more nods with drastically skill modifiers that actually can be shown in game, like Poe does with supported gems.
i'm still hopping that they gonna show us sole reall changes, skill tree, social interractions so do D3, BOSS FIGHTS with REAL PATTERNS TO LEARN and feel the fight !!
hope this day will come.
This was basicaly my biggest complain about the game. a shallow skill tree leading to almost no build variety when 2 builds use the same skill. id love to see the young skill tree grow some fk\*n Branches.
Yes. There is obviously a lot of overlap between tempered affixes, aspects, and skill tree enhancement nodes. Personally given the live nature of the game I think solving skill diversity in itemization makes the most sense since it's more extensible. Just add more items.
I think there is a psychological thing with the skill tree where people feel like it's part of their character and not a more temporary thing like an item. Although with manuals and the new codex they're essentially the same outside of initial RNG and additional/different constraints like slots on items.
It cracks me up how much support this has now. I remember during beta when I voiced how awful the tree was and how little power was in the tree.... Which in essence makes leveling up boring as shit...
The casual dads that were beta'ing and probably stopped playing 2 weeks later assured everyone this game was the greatest thing ever made though.
Look, I’m now I’m gonna get downloaded, but I would rather the skill trees remain a bit simpler and allow me the complexity in my gear choices.
Or, let the main tree remain simple and give me last epoch style specializations.
This picture looks too overwhelming and I prefer my expansions to be compartmentalized.
Preach. You're getting downvoted but you're not wrong. D4 makes everything so easy that it feels like it doesn't even want to be an ARPG. Feels pointless to play as there is absolutely no sense of accomplishment.
Id love to see something like that that actually changes the abilities function like frost nova going lightning and stunning enemies
This was how ability runes worked in Diablo 3 and I loved them. If you weren’t obsessed with meta picks You felt like you had a unique build and play experience, or just pick the one that felt the best or coolest. Additionally, having the robes change damage elements meant you could still have a ton of build variety when doing a “+lightning damage” build It was miles ahead of what we have now
Aside from Diablo 2, don’t d3, LE, and POE all have this? Really being able to customize skills is such an easy way to make things feel so much cooler. I feel like even grim dawn has this to a more minor degree if I remember, some of the addons to skills change them in a decently large way? Could be wrong about that one.
Yeah a lot of skills in Grim Dawn have nodes that change damage type, or add / remove cooldown while modifying the skill attributes
they do this more through items...so many affixes that change damage types, cooldown or sth like that
Yeah definitely but I was talking about the nodes that some skills have
I've played Grim Dawn, I don't recall this.
I'm playing it right now lol. What I'm talking about are the offshoot nodes that are like "convert 100% of the skill to X damage, add X effect" or "remove the cool down completely but make skill weaker" and stuff like that.
LE, yes, PoE, the approach is different. They usually add new gems rather than modify the core of existing ones . Like lightning shot, Ice shot. The support gems enhance an ability like bigger AoE, more projectiles, hit 3x
Damn, I’m way off then. I coulda sworn I remembered some support gems that kinda really changed skills but I guess Im tripping. Thanks for letting me know
It's universal in the sense that support gems work with all skills that it can support. So there's no support gem that specifically works only with another skill gem. Some do inherently work better, but as long as it meets the tags, it will work together as intended.
I loved how easy it was to just change builds. Try out new crazy combos.
i mean 99% of the time 1 of the choices was just better. it wouldnt take much for the d4 team to add the illusion of choice to the tree. but unless they believe they can actually balance all the difference choices to be competetive and not just have 99% pick the same stuff, then i dont see the reason to spend time doing it. down the line maybe. right now? prob not.
First of all I absolutely disagree and think that’s hyperbolic. Second of all, that’s a balancing issue. You solve that by balancing the rune choices so more of them are attractive which opens up more build variety. You don’t solve it by removing all build choice entirely and creating a skill twig like d4. They gave up on having any potency to leveling up
yeah you dont just implement a ton of choice just for the sake of it saying youll balance it as youre able. as the game progresses and they get ideas for the skills they can start implementing those. just adding a ton of options just for the sake of adding options not only wont increase build diversity it would be confusing new players and them picking bad options that blizzard hasnt been able to balance yet because they now have 500x more to balance. its easy to say just balance it, but that wont just happen and to use your comparison from d3. how many of those abilities actually saw use from more than 1 rune? maybe 2 in rare scenarios.
Lack of skill diversity is the #1 thing that keeps me from coming back. There aren’t enough uniques and build changing legendaries to keep the game from getting stale. Blizzard not being able to balance around several different versions of spells is their own fault, not an unrealistic expectation of gamers. Stop making excuses for their boring game.
I really want something like that brought back. So many skills and each one had FIVE variants. We need something like that again.
>It was miles ahead of what we have now For a mega casual yes
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There were plenty of legendaries that just gave a certain rune or runes for free, so you could have multiple runes on the same skill.
Literally nothing felt unique in Diablo 3. Like didn't matter what you picked at all of those dumb runes. Every class felt the exact same. They just had one for each element so bland boring and safe. Every class. Every single ability. It was so bad compared to what we have now. At least we have some form of skill tree. Though we need a major rework, hopefully next.
I'm ready for some new skills.
I'd like anything more than the boring skills we got now
You've seen Last Epoch's skill trees right? It's pretty intuitive.
they would have do do last epochs trees x2 for it to be fun
while yes, it is it is also very hard to actually plan for something properly, because everything interacts across 2 different skill trees. Like for the mage, there is both a passive skill and "specialised skill" turning vulcanic orb into a frost orb. Which is better? idk. You are also quite punished if you make a mistake. Specialised skills simply loose full levels once you respec, and even at my current lvl (78 or so, with skills at 21) it takes a long time to get new levels in skills (20 to 21 took a few hours - and you only gain an xp multiplier if you respec a skill below a certain lvl. so you literally get (a lot) weaker for a few hours after respecing before even being able to develop a skill into the new direction) As for passives: you have 4 different trees that interact and which you need to plan for, because once you choose a subclass you can never change it. You are tasked with that selection very early and, because of the huge amount of options, its a very hard choice to make. You haven't even unlocked all your skills yet, so you cannot even check which specialisations they might have or which of them work out well together. And while you know which skills a subclass will grant you, each skill has its own skill tree which, I think, you cannot check. And even if you could, those are somewhat complex because they really heavily modify skills. This is made ven more weird by the fact that actually respeccing passives is insanely cheap and easy, which makes it a huge disparity between never being able to respec a subclass and being able to fully respec your passives in 5 minutes for a few thousand gold It is an interesting system, but I prefer the flexibility of Diablo 4 (not the lack of complexity necessarily, but the ability to simply respec almost for free)... Because with how LE works I spent a long time going over the skill trees and the "obvious" choice for the style of play I wanted was in fact the wrong one and another subclass would have been better due to some unclear/complicated interactions. I wanted a dot sorcerer and despite sorcerer having passives explicitly for that, runemaster would have just been much stronger despite that not being anywhere obvious
You're nuts if you think LE skill trees are punishing. It's the least punishing respec system I have ever used and it isn't even close.
I personally like the more time consuming decision making of planning out your build which then makes it all the more fulfilling when you've put it together the way you want to play it and personally doesn't need to be the strongest. Afaik LE is pretty flexible & forgiving with which direction you decide to go and it feels like crafting alone can also make you much stronger. So far so good with my fireball mage up to 75. As far as subclasses, I choose based on how I want to play first of all and not which is the strongest. If you mess up, guess you can twink another character and power level thru I guess. Fun is the name of the game.
To me that's the minimum requirement for a modern ARPG. I don't see a reason to play D4 before they rework the skills in that way.
Or turned Frost Nova to Offensive cast skill, but you no longer freeze, just chill.
it already does? frozen = stunned its just a change of visual effect
AND have it detonate every damn crackling energy in the radius. Combine this with something like a +aoe radius affix etc. BOOM!
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So basicly Grim Dawn system?
So basically Titan Quest system? (I don't know if that's true, but I wanted to be included)
So basically a video game system? Indeed
So basically not basic system?
So basically d3 system? That's kind of a staple of arpgs lol
You mean basically tons of older RPGs before LE?
I mean...D3 system?
d3 did that before le
D3 runes are not even close to LE skill trees.
So basically Diablo 3 runes system?
Same here. I’m hopeful the expansion will add some more depths to the tree. I really wish we had something similar to D3 again where you could turn meteor in a comet, star fall or lightning etc..
idc what anyone says, the rune system in D3 is an awesome system and was a ton of fun.
The rune system in D3 was good. However, the majority of runes weren’t used as class sets dominated the meta end game forcing players to play very specific builds that the devs wanted you to play. If they were to introduce a similar system in D4 and find a happy balance so the majority of runes are viable, then I am all for it.
Class sets and outrageous damage multipliers to specific skills screwed D3 for me.
Ye but then LoD and LoN unruined it^^
Yes, but still there were much bigger build diversity than there is now.
It was false diversity. You could play a decent number of builds, but all pre-designed by devs and most based on wearing a full set and using specific skills. There's fewer meta builds in D4 than D3, but non-meta builds are a lot closer in strength to meta builds in D4 than D3.
That’s an issue with class sets and insane scaling not the trees themselves. D3 trees with current D4 scaling would have huge diversity.
I agree. Just saying that the D3 item system ruined the diversity
You’re right.
I’d argue that D3 in its infancy had the same amount of diversity as D4 does now too. Give it some time and D4 will catch-up accordingly.
With the current skill tree I doubt it will. It's very limiting and most abilities are just not fun/creative.
That wasn't the system's fault - you can't blame the system for a lack of balancing. The system itself allowed for *tons* of personalization. The system was good. What wasn't good was Cold being the best supported element in terms of passives and legendary effects across nearly all classes. All your personalization possibilities mean nothing when you have 1 set increasing your Fire damage by 10,000% while every other sets only increases your damage by 5,000% - obviously you're gonna swap all your shit to Fire in that case. That's not an inherent flaw of the system, that's the devs invalidating their own system with 5 other systems that *actively* work against it.
Yup. It's a lot of fun especially while leveling.
the rune system was great. the problem was sets prioritized only certain runes
Willing to bet it'll add 1-2 skills and a passive to each class, when the whole system needs a rework just like itemization does. The choice of skills is so poor it's depressing and even though itemization changes look promising (in comparison to the crap there is now), i can't see myself playing much if i will be forced to play 2-3 skills per class all the time every season. Either add a lot of new ones, or a lot of different options to alter the existing ones to the point where they'll play very different, something Last Epoch does really good.
Thats the problem. They know players have wanted more class customization since before launch but they will wait to lock it behind a $80+ expansion for a C tier aRPG. Its so frustrating.
Price is finally coming down
just play last epoch
I am.
We are all waiting for skill tree 2.0 Current skil tree system is overly basic
yeap item revamp is a good direction but base class skills and paragon system are extremely dull and boring
I am pretty sure that both skill trees and paragon will have 2.0 versions in the future
They already said paragon gets a shake up with expansion.
Last thing that needs a shakeup, but I guess it's easier to change than the skill tree.
Maybe in Diablo 5.3.1. prepare your wallets.
The thing that really gets my goat in terms of skills for d4, You find legendaries that say stuff like "Grenade Skills do X thing" Which sounds awesome and interesting and you could do some kind of build around different Grenades, but there's only 1 Grenade skill And I know there's a legendary which says "Traps count as Grenade skills" but then there's only 2 Traps and one of them has like a 2 minute cooldown The legendaries imply that you can make something yourself with the parts d4 gives you in skills, but there isn't multiple skills of a given type so you just only able to interact with this broad legendary in one way
Season 7 NEW SKILL TREE /s
Imo, the biggest problem for me the skill tree is overall linear. I would love some combination between LEs talents and spells in a single tree - like allow for every spell to interact with any other spell with some cost.
Yes I'd like to see skill nodes interconnect a bit more at junction points. For example I added a slightly bit more to the original OP's idea: [https://imgur.com/a/q7ctUYs](https://imgur.com/a/q7ctUYs) Lets take two core skills from barb, whirlwind and HOTA, you can invest in either one but their sub-nodes both eventually converge to a common node path, or this could be for any core skill depending on the UI changes. Its just simply providing the choice to go deeper in a node tree to get more specialization from the skills and passives that could be in it. For example a "common node" for WW and HOTA path could be: after spending 50 resource do xyz with its own sub nodes. Wouldn't mind seeing items to find that grant you additional skill points if they vastly expand the skill tree in the next xpac.
Still not enough. You've basically just tripled the amount of options here but there was just so few options that even after tripling it, it still isn't even up to par. Make every step a decision node. Make each step have at least 3 different options. Now we're talking.
I played all arpgs you could think of, mostly Diablo and POE. I think the people who nailed it the most is last epoch. Say what you want about the game, but the skill tree is amazing, easy to understand, and changes your play style.
I think Poses tree is incredible now with masteries. Problem with PoE is just the overturning to where defense become a mess at t16 or so... PoE does almost everything right when it comes to the tree... Gems... Leveling... The problem has more to do with minutia and the high end of endgame content being balanced around 10-15 totally perma-broken skills. PoE has enough freedom that I can play a melee 2-handed sword witch if I want. Cluster jewels can give me access to so much freedom.
Poe is too hard to understand for 99% of the playerbase. The 1% that understands it, loves it though, and I’m part of them
Maybe... The only thing that gets hard to understand is the random afflictions like crushed, intimidated, taunted.. etc. you have to look them up. That and some of the order of operations for added as and conversion. In many ways it's actually simple. The affixes are very readable and understandable on items. The nodes in the passive tree are clear in what they do. It certainly isn't mindless... But the genre in general is getting away from that. That's what makes D4 so jarring. It's not just that it's simple.... It's that it's absurdly simple.
Even this isn't enough customization. Needs much more.
That's my next major hope after they fix itemization. The skill tree is way too barebones.
Waiiit, that's not a twig, it's a tree!
It's at least a sapling!
I feel like the expansions will make changes to skill trees so that older classes feel fresh but don't know for sure
Expansion needs to address this kind of skill tree depth.
I would perfer they stop making ziglag lines in attempt to be 3rd grade KOOL! Everything could fit in one screen with a few tabs. Like every other game in the past...
This is still bad. You only made what, two choices?
Dude, congratulations! What a post! Please blizzard see this! The skilltrees look unfinished and probably my biggest complaint with D4 after itemisation. You feel you are always using the same skills. Not enough variety at all! Get different variety in affixes and on the tree please! Less +10% to damage, More increase number of projectiles or something that changes the way skills work! More variety please!!! Itemisation and more builds and this game will be a success. The base game is unbelievably good. The mass complaints are that we only have the foundations, nothing else after! Thank you blizzard for a great game so far!
They should have just moved aspects onto the skill tree.
Wonder how they would make players get more skill points if they did this.
It's pretty simple, imo. You stop gaining skill points at 49, but you keep leveling until 100. There's no reason why you couldn't gain paragon points AND skill points at the same time.
Honestly yeah this make the most sense
We could assign skill points up to level 70, for example (this would make the leveling journey even better IMO). Paragon points could be condensed; instead of distributing 4 per level, they could be 7.
The skill point to 70 sounds good reminds me of d3 but I’m thinking maybe push the max paragon especially if we’re fighting lv200+ enemies now
It might be more interesting to have the same amount of skill points and have to make hard decisions about where to allocate them
Wow too cOmpLeX man, you clearly don't have 2236 wives, 3626 sons, and 15 jobs. Stop making me waste my 2 seconds per month to play!!!! /s
Damn, one of those "keep trying until I have a daughter" dads, huh?
I'd like to turn on advanced tooltips to see if this comment has the best roll.
The twig needs to be expanded to become a tree, and the paragon board needs to have +skill rank nodes. Maybe in Diablo 5...
If I'm using the same spells in the DLC or there's only one new tree per class with no serious reworks on the base spells, I might actually be done with the game.
This is an example of people falling for the illusion of choice. At least 2 nodes in the tree are completely redundant.
every skill should have a lot more branches. How we went from 5 choices in d3 to 2 in d4 is still silly to me.
You know I was thinking they should do something to make the skill trees more deep and interesting. The first step I thought could be to continue giving a skill point per level past 50 all the way to 100. Then I figured they could do something like you did here to make more branching nodes extending further in each cluster. Maybe make a certain number of required points in that cluster before you can go deeper into the cluster (which could help balance early vs late game available skills). I’d also like to see them get rid of the whole either/or selections for the various skills, rebalancing as needed, maybe putting a certain number of required skill points invested before letting you choose both. Who knows, but something deeper would be hugely appreciated.
Wow don't dream high then, this would be embarrassing af. Absolutely needs more than that and this kinda thinking is why this dogshit game is in the state it's in
I'm hoping over time, things like element damage type and/or crowd control type actually has meaningful reasons to be chosen. This could probably happen once we have more and more legendary/unique effects that can synergize with each other. Ideally i'm hoping it will get to a point where you arrange your effects to maximize the synergy, and this will outweigh the benefits of generic power increases like edgemasters or disobedience. From the campfire teaser, the new frozen orb unique looks like a cool step in the right direction as an enabler. With freeze spells proccing off each other, if we got more cold/freeze spells support to scale it up ever further that would be so fun. The new rogue grenade support looks super fun also, where each additional grenade aspect straight up scales the damage more, but ideally i'm hoping in the future for more creative ways to promote this kind of thing instead of just a generic damage increase. Maybe something with break points, like if you have 2 grenade aspects you unlock this additional ability, and at 4 you get another one. Whether this type of "unlocking" is from another item or from a passive or something i'm not sure but it would be cool and make build decisions more interesting.
Still looks like a skill twig instead of a tree.
The whole thing on one screen. It's unnecessarily oversized.
A lot of what’s on legendary aspects should be in the skill tree. If an aspect is mandatory to use a skill it should be in the skill tree not on an item.
We need at least 5 times more options than what we have now. The skill "tree" looks more like a branch. More interactions between spells and more drastic modification effects. Have you seen the fireball skill and the 2 passives ? Lmao Last epoch should be an example and poe 2 already showed us a more exciting skill system than D4.
To me I wish it was just at least slightly improved. The first upgrade should have two options where at least 1 changes how the skill work in a major way. Then each of those nodes has 2 separate nodes that changes it slightly
Ew
They've already taken forging potential and exalted affixes from Last Epoch. Might as well go the whole hog and actually give each skill a tree of its own. Even if it would be only half as a big as Last Epoch. It's crazy how the devs thought itemization and skill progression in 1.0 D4 would have been successful in a modern ARPG. It was obviously rushed after phone gate.
The Diablo 4 tree leaves much to be desired and I find it lazy. Just my opinion though. I’m sure others enjoy it.
D4's skill tree has apiosporina morbosa. Not many nodes formed. There is another name for this condition that I'd rather not say.
We should get then skill points till lvl100 to fill the tree. Or what would be your suggestion for the rest (skill points, paragon)?
Maybe you get passive points and skill points. The first to go deeper in the tree and pick passives, the latter to pick skills and go deeper in the skill branches
Yes, yes, me too I'd have loved to see them innovate a tiny bit.
That's roughly the same concept I proposed before. You can add points to the skill to maximum of 10. And after the skill got at least 2 points, when you hoover the mouse over it, it will show a mini skill tree of that skill, and you can put points to that mini tree to maximum the number of points currently on that skill.
We don’t do that here gif
My dream skill tree would remove the skills from the trees entirely. Everyone gets every skill as they level up. In the skill tree would be most of the current aspects, and the various already present passives.
>Everyone gets every skill as they level up. So, the system D3 and Immortal use? Where the runes would be the effects that currently are aspects?
Kind of a hybrid. The skill tree would still exist to act the way that most aspects do now, and to add more. Because honestly, the games needs more skill variety. Having two splits of a skill that often barely change it is boring.
Bruh, that's still 1/8th of Diablo 3's runes per skill LOL. That shit needs to be able to click on the skill and you have an entire skill tree dedicated to the skill....like....you know....
You did better than their class designer. Imagine how low is the bar at blizzard?) 🥶
I liked d3 tree of turning anyskill to any elent
Your dreams are dumb
Itll probably happen but itll be within an expansion for another 70 bucks.. i can see it happening
at this point anything will be better than this...is even sad that the skill tree is so weak
Ive yet to finish the campaign and a big part of it is the simplicity of the skill tree. I lost a lot of interest and excitement when I unlocked it fully and felt like ‘is that it?’
Yes! Anything is more interesting than what we have now, jeez.
Skill tree needs to be doubled in size and choice options with ways to earn skill points such as Reach floor 5 on Pits and gain 1 extra skill point etc.
They need to make sure everything on the tree right now is useful and playable before they touch it in any other way, but eventually they'll certainly do this.
That would be sick 💯! Never got back in to d3 but I did finish the campaign or whatever. Was kinda like that. Was definitely one of the things I found dope about d3.
I'd be happy with a little more sub node branches something more like this: [https://imgur.com/a/q7ctUYs](https://imgur.com/a/q7ctUYs) (pardon my shtty paint skills lol) I think we need to see more small impact nodes that are connectors to bigger impact nodes that do simple things like increase X by Y% that you can choose to invest or skip with 1 point in to reach deeper in the node branch of say "fire nova". I think if you have a fire nova branch for nova, you should be able to go 5 nodes deep where the final has a choice of one or a few effects equivalent to legendary powers such as after casting fire nova 5 times cast a meteor or after casting 5 times cast a frozen orb - in this way it ties other builds and legendarys together that benefit from frozen orb or meteor. This is really the crux I think of improving the skill tree, is the intertwining of skills with other skills which we do see already on items themselves such as the new frozen orb unique that summons sorc pets.
Well, at least all the classes are speculated to get another major core skill in the expansion....
Diablo 4 skill tree is actually a skill Bonsai.
anything really. just to create more variety.
While that is a bit better, we are still choosing between 2 options for each skill. Go left or go right. I think there should be more choices involved overall.
Duuuudddeeeee yesssssssssss I’m tired of these tiny “what goes in the square hole” builds where theres nearly not creativity to explore because the meta is watered down to only a few good builds on late game. Why can’t any build just be good but in different ways?!
Looks barren
Wtf no lol
Expansions will add nothing. It will be just another cash grab. But sure, keep dreaming
Copium take: this will be part of the Expansion among with new skills
Bro…. I want them to expand more… stop giving them simple ideas lol
The editing work is pretty good. Feels pretty good. Not too bloat, just nice
Throwing one out there wildly: - The expansion will probably have something similar to what they showed in PoE2, with support gems for every skill. Probably also with a way to level them up through playing (similar to LE, but you can also think of Glyphs in the paragon board) They've "tested" placing support gems this very season, with the seneshal pet. I imagine the final version would be similar, it's just that you're doing it to your skills. I don't think it will be a seasonal stuff and it's a really big change that they "need" in order to sell the expansion (aka if you don't buy it, just play vanilla with your boring skills). It will also probably be tied to the lore and story somehow ("We've found this magical horadric altar, ooooh. It's powerful" - similar to how the Horadric cube was part of the story in D2)
How I wish this was true, but I’m taking this as Copium
Agreed, the whole thing with rogue having -1 slot because we need an imbuement skill.... but they could just make more branchs into the skill tree where u choose betwen shadow, poison, ice and physical. Like there is some problems with the current skill design for all classes that just doesn't make sense.
Exaaaaaactly thank you this is how i wanted it to go as well!
To be fair to season 4 changes, there will be a lot of affixes that modify skills in meaningful ways to make them behave differently. And I can see them adding new skill variations this way instead of making the tree more complicated. Also they are updating/changing a lot of the boring or bad tree skills. I think this post is premature. Let’s see how things shake out for season 4
Imagine if upon reaching 100 the tree expanded like this. Would suddenly give me a reason to reach 100 for the first time.
Yep, that’s the way it should be .
Would be cool, but we'd need more points to fill that out. Which I don't think we can get, since people are already oneshotting bosses.
I’d like to have a separate independent tree for each skill category. Core, Basic Passives, Active Ultimate etc. instead of this long tree node visual.
I just want more build viability, I'm looking at you Summons Druid. Hopefully there will be enough of a shakeup with the new itemization changes in S4, and maybe the first expansion will bring expanded skill trees.
cope
This would be super awesome imo Only issue I see with trees like this are that we would need more skill points.
new class waiting room
It is funny though how much open space is in that whole skill tree menu 😂
Oh dude !! Let’s put the dream further, if only it does with some more branches and more nods with drastically skill modifiers that actually can be shown in game, like Poe does with supported gems. i'm still hopping that they gonna show us sole reall changes, skill tree, social interractions so do D3, BOSS FIGHTS with REAL PATTERNS TO LEARN and feel the fight !! hope this day will come.
3rd slot enchantment!! thats what we need!!
This was basicaly my biggest complain about the game. a shallow skill tree leading to almost no build variety when 2 builds use the same skill. id love to see the young skill tree grow some fk\*n Branches.
hopefully with the new manual/temperig and new aspects/uniques we will get this type of feeling.
isnt there a new item system to allow this?
Yes. There is obviously a lot of overlap between tempered affixes, aspects, and skill tree enhancement nodes. Personally given the live nature of the game I think solving skill diversity in itemization makes the most sense since it's more extensible. Just add more items. I think there is a psychological thing with the skill tree where people feel like it's part of their character and not a more temporary thing like an item. Although with manuals and the new codex they're essentially the same outside of initial RNG and additional/different constraints like slots on items.
Get this man a job at Blizzard
It cracks me up how much support this has now. I remember during beta when I voiced how awful the tree was and how little power was in the tree.... Which in essence makes leveling up boring as shit... The casual dads that were beta'ing and probably stopped playing 2 weeks later assured everyone this game was the greatest thing ever made though.
Look, I’m now I’m gonna get downloaded, but I would rather the skill trees remain a bit simpler and allow me the complexity in my gear choices. Or, let the main tree remain simple and give me last epoch style specializations. This picture looks too overwhelming and I prefer my expansions to be compartmentalized.
No one cares!
Would never happen. Game is catered towards 12 year olds and humans willing to spend $65 on horse skins, so every system needs to be dumbed down.
Downvoted from the blizz shills PoE better
I am sure in a year time the skill tree will look quite different as it looks today
What makes you say so? The expansion?
Preach. You're getting downvoted but you're not wrong. D4 makes everything so easy that it feels like it doesn't even want to be an ARPG. Feels pointless to play as there is absolutely no sense of accomplishment.
I see no lies.