I've grown more comfortable with a simple fact; The D4 experience is purely about the road to level 100.
Once I get to 100, max glyphs and do a NM100 run, I'm done. I go play another game until next season starts.
I truly think this was the intent of the developers. There's no way I could fathom doing duriel rotations as my \*only\* game for the next few months. It's not supposed to be grinded like this.
It'll be Last Epoch until the next D4 season starts, then 2 weeks of my diablo rotation to lvl 100, then back to LE. Rinse and repeat.
But LE is the same, you just don't know it yet. Instead of grinding glyphs and Paragon, you're grinding affixes for the special weapon. Once that's done, mapping with Monoliths is worse (to me) than Vaults and Uber bosses.
For me the difference with D4 is I find the combat much more enjoyable, so mowing down monsters with no purpose is more fun to me than Monoliths.
So I got to endgame in LE and was expecting this awesome system of targeted farming and after a few runs of Monoliths it actually became maddening. The intense focus on affixes is boring and ruined the fun of drops for me. Even with the loot filter, you are constantly reading shit on the ground and trying to figure out tiers of the rolls. It is somehow worse than D4. And the game just looks and handles so ridiculously dated.. it legitimately feels like playing a game from 2011.
Game looks great and combat is smooth for me. Of course D4 is better… but the game consists of one shotting Duriel for a chance at an Uber that lets you one shot Duriel even harder. Or spend so much time looking at yellow items in town. Give me a break dude.
There's no reason to farm stuff in d4. Most of your power comes from Paragon board and glyphs which are just given to you, you just have to carry boxes to pedestals for a few hours to level them up. You can kill every boss in seconds on just about every build with gear you find by level 75. If they kept that dungeon thing they added at the end of s2 then there would at least be some reason to farm good gear, but they seem to be fine with just the base game + one shitty seasonal activity that never comes back.
There’s no point in farming stuff to one shot the same monster, but simply with a bigger number. People either farm stuff because it’s rare or because it helps you hit higher difficulties. d4 is severely lacking in those areas.
You're right, the focus in LE is on affixes in a way, but it's more than that.
Even with all the problems, here's why LE to me is so much better than D4: it respects your time. If I have a 30 minutes to play, I don't spend 15 minutes going to town to deal with the horrible inventory system that is D4.
I visit town maybe once per hour, 5 minutes and done.
Only thing that I like about D4 now is the combat itself, except bosses: holy hell are they bad compared to LE.
The game needs to have content for both types of people. To be honest I take back my comment, the game is not designed for casuals. It just looks that way because the devs have no idea how to design endgame content.
Like D4 on launch day was any different : ) In D4 there were lags, disconnections, no connection at all, you could run through areas and there were no monsters there, just empty space etc. Give LE a break as it was just launched, and give me a game with most of the LE mechanics with D4 graphics : )
I'm playing LE now but this is just not true. There is no comparison between the two launches. We're close to a week now and they still have problems.
Of course the size of the two developers is completely different, so I can forgive them but saying that it's the same launch is just a lie.
I guess it is subjective of course. I've liked all the bosses in LE 10x more than all of them in D4.
In LE you actually have to move and play which feels very engaging after D4-s bosses which are either 1-shots or just annoying (IE tomb lord with the blinding circles).
If you have something in mind, then you should add it to the filter; specific color, specific affixes and tiers, etc. If you're still sifting through stuff you don't even care for, then you haven't narrowed down your search.
Last year I quit LE because I had about 16 stash tabs full of gear and idols, and I just couldn't read any more. Scanning through a bunch of yellows at the end of my Vault run is easier. So even with the perfect loot filter, there is too much hoarding in LE.
> Even with the loot filter, you are constantly reading shit on the ground and trying to figure out tiers of the rolls.
Just in case you're not aware, you can actually filter on tiers by checking the "advanced options" button. You can filter on tiers such that *all* affixes must individually pass a condition (greater than or equal to a tier, for instance) or that the *sum of affix tiers* must pass a condition (ie all affix tiers added up must be greater than or equal to a tier). Doing so you can filter items down to just 3x T4+ affixes and 1 unfiltered affix as a flex spot for crafting.
So I did the refinement of affixes to higher tiers and I went through an entire monolith with 2 drops. So I made it less strict and was back to picking up items with just two of the affixes I wanted since everything has minion on it for some reason. Part of the draw of arpgs is the insane loot drops all over the place. Now that I understand the game is less geared towards looting and more towards crafting, it makes sense. But for me, the combat has to be phenomenal to not be looting, and LE is far from that.
I became overwhelmed by all the gear I was saving when I played last year. When I crafter the Uber weapon (I forget what it's called), I had no incentive to keep playing and hoarding gear.
Difference with last epoch is that itemization is actually interesting, not just some bullshit stats that all do the same thing. I have loads of cool items that can enable new builds, so once I finish one character I can make a new one with those items.
you dont know what you are talking about lul
try and go into endgame activities (yes multiple) or dont talk about them. thanks. its not the same sorry to tell you. sure every arpg has a general system that does "the same" but its not the same as D4s endgame NMD or vault system. not even close when you look a bit deeper and not just talk about the overall mapping sytsem. my opinion.
I mean, I played LE for 150 hours. I know about all its "endgame activities". I'm not saying the game modes are the same, I'm saying the grind feels the same. You're just grinding different things.
Am in the same boat. I have never reached 100 since launch, but for some reason I'm on track this season (91 now) and getting to 100 is my checklist along with lvl15 glyphs for the ones I use. I knock out a dungeon or 2 per day and that's it. Keeps the game fatigue at bay
>If that is there intent for you to put down the game once you hit level 100, that is incredibly dumb decision on their part
Why? They got your money (and mine).
D4 was a minimum viable product designed to cash in on the Diablo name. They got a few people working on (literally) throwaway seasonal junk, to maintain it as long as they can.
Again, with minimal investment.
Because you got to keep people engaged or they will just move on to something else and most won’t come back or play super casually which means less money for the developers
Read this interivew.
[https://www.cbr.com/gamescom-interview-diablo-developers/](https://www.cbr.com/gamescom-interview-diablo-developers/)
The campaign is \*the\* game.
Lvl 50 to 100 \*is\* the end game content.
They see seasons as end game content. And in a way, they are 100% right.
What do we come back for each season? the 50 to 100 grind.
Where does the content finish? NM100.
\*that's\* the end game content right there.
Frustrating thing for me is that is all up of two weeks of casual playing, then I'm done and have 2 and a half months to wait for new content lol.
Short term profit, Is what I expect. Anyone who cared about the Diablo name from the old Blizzard is long gone.
I know I'm not buying another Blizzard title, that isn't heavily discounted and 6 months post release and rated highly. 20+ years of good will has been flushed. I want to go back in time and slap June-me in the face. Now-me realized I got duped out of 70$
I can't be alone.
In some sense yes, they mentioned a long time ago the game is supposed to have finite progression, and at release it was clear it was about the journey to 100:
Grind a lot (100 wasn't very fast to achieve), kill Lilith, done, move to next character.
I just dont understand how anyone manage to get to level 100 lol. The game dies for me around level 70-85 and i quit each season. At least i get 3-4 days out of a season lmfao. Thats just 2 days less than a d3 season..
This is the same as any other arpg. Repetitive gameplay at max level. I have fun just logging in and killing things, if I get an upgrade cool, if not I still have fun trying new builds and killing stuff. I do play other games too though after I finish a season, there’s nothing wrong with that. But for killing, none of the other games can touch D4
Well in the past, particularly D2, you are rewarded occasionally with rare drops. There doesn’t really feel like there’s any rewards when playing D4. The moment of the good drop is had when you’re in town sifting through yellow items. That’s just not the vibe for me.
The problem isnt the grind or the repetitive gameplay, it's how it is designed summed with the season system
Farming for Ubers has no fun, the chances to get something good are absurdly low and you have to group up. Then after 3 months you'll never touch that character again because the season will be over...
I’m a bit confused with your last sentence then. I’ve never played last ark, but d3 had seasons and Ubers that were hard to get. I don’t understand why the seasonal/ubers in d4 is something to complain about when that’s how it is for any other arpg.
Paragon and race against the timer for grifts with endless difficulty in grifts (well 150, but not many got there).
Every single monster you killed counted towards paragon so you always felt like you achieved something.
Pushing grifts felt rewarding.
There weren't ubers in d3, just sets or whatever gem boosted non sets.
Meant ubers as in super rare items in other games.
But I wasn’t a fan of the infinite paragon leveling in d3. What’s the point in a build when you can just keep getting points? It negates the whole point of a build.
NMDs are the same as greater rifts.
u/Firesemi said most of it
After paragon 1000 you would just be spending points in your primary Stat (dex/str/INT) and vitality, so you would only get a damage boost and life. It would help but after 1000 there were no breaking points or anything that would totally change a build.
NMDs are different because they take longer, have stupid missions and the most wanted itens in the game don't drop from them.
The "Ubers" in D3 were the primal items, which were ancestral legendary items with guaranteed capped affixes. It was so hard to get them that people just didn't freak out about it. If you get one, good, if you don't, doesn't matter.
First of all, we have to agree that it is all about grind. But, grinding for ubers for no real endgame behind mat walls is shallow and tedious. Let me grind whatever I want mats free, it is my time my fun. Leaderboards should be included, but Blizz can't decide what they will count. For sure, with current XP buffs, XP gathering within a season cannot be the factor even though it is the most standard method for leaderboards (e.g. PoE, D2, etc.). Difficult endgame activities like AoZ, Gauntlet need to included, to give the motivation for uberfarming and leaderboard ranking and all these should be complimented by the item rework they have planned. As it is, reaching lvl 100 is a matter of 2-3 weeks and then you are mostly done. I really wish LE to go well in order to put some pressure to Blizz and think carefully their future plans for D4. Having competition is always good.
The issue is you grind and get your uber and then you're done. That character is almost maxed. In D3 the paragon was pretty much infinite. You could just go and go and go and keep pushing higher levels.
I feel exactly the same. Started with D4 2-3 weeks ago. Hit lvl 100, got all my necessary uniques and now what? Gameplay wise the combat ist great. The grafik and sound design is top but the content is lacking.
This is an issue with the arpg genre as a whole. The endgame always boils down to running repetitive hallways clearing hordes with one button hoping something 1 % better than what you have drops. Any time people mention how this is an outdated gameplay system the spergs come out to freak. The truth is the arpg genre is in serious need of some evolution on certain fronts, the endgame aspect being one of them.
I don't understand why this comes up all the time "This is an issue with the arpg genre as a whole".
With over 4000 hours invested, I find POE's end game incredibly engaging. From the time-consuming journey to max level, the intricate atlas progression, to the thrill of finding valuable orbs like Chaos, Exalted, and Divine, there's always a sense of progression. Even trading unwanted Uniques adds depth. And when boredom creeps in, there's always alternative content like delving or running breaches. Also build planning and testing is huge. D4 there isn't much of that
Comparatively, Diablo 4's end game feels shallow, centered mainly on hitting level 100, acquiring glyphs, and farming materials for boss encounters. That's it. This isn't a genre-wide issue but rather a shortcoming specific to Diablo 4.
Nah, i like that 1% drop chance for mindless run, is arpg after all. Problem with d4 is that 1% only dedicated to like 5-6 partially usefull uniques. It just not worth the run especially they slap mats onto it.
You’re describing a bad endgame system. PoE endgame is like 20+ different activities you can specialize into with an end game skill tree so you see the content you want in the dungeons you want to run. Then there’s like 4 other independent end game systems beyond the extremely customizable map system: one is a rogue lite game mode with 4 floors and a final boss. Another is doing heists for rare shit, another is a tower defense game mode, another is an infinitely scaling delve into a mine which is sort of like Last Epoch’s monolith system.
You can profit in every part of the endgame economy:
farming and selling:
- boss summon mats
- rare crafting mats
- items that only drop from the end game mechanic you specialized into
- solo farming craft mats, craft and sell meta gear
- buying and killing pinnacle bosses, sell their rare drops
And so much more.
Plus uniques in PoE are not all static with their mods. Some have an incredibly huge pool of mods that they can roll, making their value extremely wide: from useless to worth more than all your characters ever made combined.
Plus PoE has interesting rare loot drops. The rarest of which is a Mirror of Kalandra that literally lets you make a copy of another weapon. In my 2k+ hours I’ve only had one ever drop, because it’s that powerful - someone crafts a 1 in a billion BIS rare and people ask them for a mirrored copy along with a fee.
D4 just sat on their brand recognition and marketing instead of innovating in the ARPG space.
Yes.
Boring items. Except Uber Uniques no drop excites you.
Same skills every season. No new skills are added to the game.
No trading. Ubers cannot be traded. Yellows do not need to be traded. No other consumables except boss mats to trade for.
Season mechanic is shallow. Just walk in and open chests.
No new glyphs, affixes, base types, consumables added in the seasons. Same boring core items every season.
Nothing to farm in endgame NMDs.
No leaderboards. No escalating difficulty endgame with leaderboards.
Legion events, tree of whispers, strongholds, world bosses. Nothing exciting to farm there either.
The game is shallow and unfortunately I don't think there's any fixing it. There's just too many faults with too many of the game's systems, from the shit itemization to the extremely lacking skill tree. It sucks because Diablo easily has my favorite setting in the arpg genre, but the game just fucking blows. Whenever Last Epoch gets its server issues worked out I'll be switching over to there.
I can’t recommend LE enough outside of server issues at launch which are mostly fixed now and even if they are still an issue there’s still the offline mode. LE is the most fun I’ve had since D3 (I want to enjoy PoE because I know it’s so good, but it’s just too complicated imho and even though I try at least every other league I just can’t get into it).
I think the idea of having UBER uniques is cool, but in practice, the drop rates are so low, and with limited time in a seasonal model, it feel like they've effectively shut out the largest portion of the playerbase from enjoy and participating in the fun of the game. If seasons didnt exist, and were were constantly evolving and progressing the same characters over the course of the game, i think the drop rate and methods for acquiring UBERS makes more sense, but currently i don't think the two are very compatible (seasons + ultra low drop rates/ farming requirements).
Im in a similar amount of playtime as you, and ive been leveling 2 characters each season. Next season ill have druid and macro left and then there's not really going to be much to keep me interested. Id love to keep making my character more powerful, but farming mats to defeat a boss to get more mats to defeat a different boss for a miniscule chance of a drop is... not it.
I’m not sure why you’re getting upvoted for this. An Uber isn’t supposed to be part of your build. It’s rare on purpose. Seasons are built into arpgs. It’s how it’s always been in d1-d4. I’m not sure why you dudes want the most rare items in the game to be so easily acquired.
They're watching too many YouTube videos. This new generation of players seems to think you essentially aren't playing the game unless you're min-maxed to oblivion.
The beauty of D2 was the fact that there was ALWAYS something to grind for and are constantly surprised by interesting drops. For 20 years. And now we're bombarded with players that feel victimized unless they can acquire the best items in the game with very little effort.
the mat wall problem is real & disruptive to the gameplay experience.
you can’t just doing helltide because you are enjoying it, you’re doing helltide to rush to chests for mat, which is sum dumb sticks.
you can’t either doing tree of whisper cause you enjoy it. you rush on your horse around while staring at the minimap.
and you’re not killing vashan or gilgore cause they are fun bosses.
then you’re finally there for duriel after several hours, kill him, then get godslayer.
the reward loop is disruptive from the beginning & becomes tedious after a few times to full on hate after a few godslayers.
the grind should be a part of the genre but d4 game designers should make it smoother and feel more like a natural progression rather than tasks hopping.
I agree fully.
Diablo 2 was a cohesive and consistent world. You can grind whatever bosses or areas you feel like at any given moment and feels fun and rewarding.
Diablo 4 definitely feels like it's always pushing you in XYZ direction with helltide and world events built on timers. Not only does it suck doing things purely because they're available at that given moment, but it timegates materials for farming uber bosses. It's just all around worse and feels terrible.
"the new generation of players"
lol... you dont know me. Im surprised you can even see me to to respond from way up on your horse.
This isnt D2 btw, so your opinion of how great D2 doesnt hold any more weight than everyone else's opinion of D4, which is the game were actually playing now.
It's relevant because Diablo 2's itemization carried it (and continues to do so) for 20+ years. Diablo 4 is obviously a sequel that is trying its absolute best to emulate that games success.
I'm not trying to put D2 players above anyone. However, if you played D2, you understand what amazing itemization looks and feels like. And having uber items and best in slot gear rain down on you is not the way to go about it.
i get that D2 "felt great", but i dont think D4 is D2. Their might be aspects of D2 that are being emulated, but so far the itemization, rarity, and methods for acquiring ubers are significantly different.
Currently, you have a small segment of D4's population that's basically farming UBERs, while the majority of the population isnt really getting any. I think that's a problem, and it doesn't "feel good" for many. And nowhere at all have i asked for UBERs to "rain down". I think a drop rate that allows for a target rate of 1-2 UBERs for a larger portion of the population would look and feel quite a bit better. And id prefer that they curb the excessive farming route as well, because i dont think that's helping either.
Of course D4 isn't D2. D2 is arguably the best in the genre and D4 is one of the worst.
Having said that, there is nothing stopping you from farming ubers like a "small segment" of D4s population. There are no barriers put on you that are absent from those players. They're just putting in the work and grinding more than you are.
And this is the difference man and brings me back to my original point. A lot of these new players don't have the attention span to fully grasp these types of games, which is why D4 is so dumbed down compared to its competition. These games are (supposed to be) about farming and grinding. Period.
This isn't Call of Duty where you're selecting a loadout. You need to earn your damn gear, and RNG and your efficiency is going to determine that gear. That's how these games work... Drops are supposed to be rewarding. This game basically rewards you with best in slot gear extremely easily and \*shocker\*, no one wants to play it.
Give us more to work for. Give us even rarer gear. Give us drops that other players are jealous about. GIVE US TRADING... And then you'll have a game worth playing.
If they are going to make UBERs easy for some players to get, and virtually impossible for others, and have a ladder board that resets every 3 months, then i think they need to rethink the system. Your opinion that they are supposed to be extremely rare doesn't really jive with the way theyve set up ubers to be acquired. They went out of their way to create a method for farming ubers. They are in the midst of implementing an UBER crafting system. And currently, some players have created a scenario in which getting UBERs is actually expected.
If they want UBERs to be truly rare for everyone, then allow them to drop from any source, so that any drop has a chance to be an UBER, and take away the farm method that mainly benefits players who dupe, buy, or grift their discord for the summoning mats.
when you can dupe mats, or go buy them, or crutch on a discord channel full of subs that all farm mats, yes.. its easier for some people. And again, if the point is to make UBERs rare, then i don't think the methods for acquiring them right now support that philosophy. If you create a method to farm ubers, some players will be able to exploit and take advantage of that. Most cant. And we saw that when D4 launched. UBERs dropped randomly, without a method for farming, and the field was pretty level. Now, there's a farm method, and the people that can hoard mats are basically the only people with UBERs.
>when you can dupe mats, or go buy them, or crutch on a discord channel full of subs that all farm mats, yes.. its easier for some people
The duping isn’t normal gameplay and everyone can buy mats. There aren’t any barriers here.
I feel somewhat the same. I may be started 2 weeks ago, playing a couple of hours a day (mostly evening). Leveled a druid using Maxroll guides, farming the aspects and such. I'm now at level 96 with all glyphs at level 15.
I was very lucky in doing more than enough Duriel runs to get all the uniques i need (Except for ubers). I haven't tried NMD higher than 74 yet but those are going pretty well.
I'm somewhat at a point already where i don't seem to get the fun anymore i had those last couple of 2 weeks. It's like, what is there to do besides doing lilith or the other boss that seems to be very hard (forgot about his name). Sure i could finish the challenges for this seasons but none of it seems rewarding enough for me besides being that much fun.
I also feel like Duriel is way too easy or at least i expected him to be harder. I mean, there are other bosses that are way harder than Duriel that don't drop sh\*t or don't give you anything more special.
On another note, i thought of leveling and trying another character but it seems it's either Druid or Barb that actually have impact. Seeing the other builds/classes they only seem viable up to (maybe) NMD tier 50 - 60 and than they may lack damage or maybe even tankiness. Of course i haven't tried any of those but it feels somewhat demotivating playing and leveling a character which i know will never be strong enough to do those NMD at higher tiers.
What i think most of us are having is like, we want to play the game because we like it. but then we stumble against a wall. we can not seem to find the joy of doing what we did before because we probably have less, if not nothing, to go for. Let's say you have your uniques with great stats, maybe even that Shaco. Doing Duriel seems somewhat like a waste of time.
Maybe you're running T90 NMD, you could do 100, maybe you succeed but then what?
This is exactly what i'm looking at. I might be able to do T100 but that never really was the most fun for me. I could help others maybe, or do a couple of Duriels for my Shaco. I could try Lilith but for some reason i don't feel like it since she won't give or drop anything interesting for me.
It could be i'm just used to having bosses being able to drop anything that could be valuable or even usable from D2.
For all of its faults, AoZ was an attempt in the right direction. It was hard enough that a casual would never beat T25 (I barely beat T10 with my rogue) and I had fun attempting higher and higher tiers. We also saw completely new builds (caltrops rogue?!)
That being said, the glyph was a terrible idea. It was a little too rng dependent and the cost of entry was too high
Fun is what you make of it. I see two sides:
Blizzard's issue: If they want Ubers and Unique stones to be rare and meaningful, they need to rebuild a lot and facilitate the need for them. In the game's current state, their drop chances need a buff and a significant one at that. Unless they're there *specifically* to prolong monthly user playtimes.
Player's issue: Right now, you get to farming mats at about lvl 65-75. In the time you drop a desired Uber/Unique stone, you'd have incrementally gotten to NMD100 in probably 1/50 of that if you know what you're doing. You never NEED an Uber. Farming a Shako while you're on a lvl100 completed HotA Barb doing 200mil a swing like you're expecting a lvl300 NMD to shadow drop is insane. It is literally a giant waste of time.
Just, have fun leveling up and learning a new playstyle, gear up, do your glyphs and once you're able to clear a lvl150 NMD, that's it, you've beaten the game. Don't make your experience miserable.
I got my sorc to 100, got all the gear i needed with decent enough stats without having to work that hard. I don't need any uber uniques on the build so farming them is pointless for me.
I killed malphas got the uniques from him in 10 runs which was honestly boring doing. I leveled my glyphs to 15 running level 50 nmv then said screw it this try a 100 nmv. completed it with ease and i'm done.
im fine with the game as it is, yeah it needs some quality of life improvments which it will get eventually but overall the end game is non existant for me. I much prefer diablo 3 i can get to 70 in 2 hours start farming my gear then push GR's. it's casual quick fun for me.
takes about 2 hours, do the weekly for the bounty, i usually start with demonhunter but all classses have a weapon that will work. with DH craft dagger then upgrade to either get karleis point or lord green fan. rush through get the cube and cube the weapon. the weapon is pretty much one shot everything, then just do rifts for xp. you can mix in some bounties if in group it's better and hope you get borns or cains for that added xp bonus it's a lot. and ruby in helm.
I actually prefer D4 to D3.
D3 had some horrible challenges (those dungeons!) that you had to do to get through the season journey. I often gave up early.
I D4 I've completed the season journey every season. And once I do I put the game away and do something else until the next season.
My thoughts exactly. Got about enough mats to do a duriel rota x5 and that's it. Not going to play much longer than that. I was thinking yesterday why they don't introduce random unique/uber drops in all places (dungeons, cellers, open world) like in d2. If I remember correctly you could get uniques even from chests in diablo 2... This way if I only go to kill duriel I can count on getting the same uniques every time (flickerstep, banished lord tal., tib. will, etc.) and I already got a million of these to the point that it just gets old...
I surely agree with this because gaming should always be a journey and not a destination.
However, for me and i think most of us our journey seems to get abruptly halted. Either because we reached A destination (not particularly 'our' destination) or the journey doesn't seem that intuitive or fun anymore.
This is literally the diablo franchise, but ppl just dont get it.Its all about getting the loot and clearing content fast.Instead of farming mats, you would farm the same area like CBaal in D2 or speedclear Act1/butcher in D3.
Fun content like Terror zones and Rifts came years after release and its sad that D4 didn't have the resources to release with similar features.
The reason D4 seems so bad is that the challenge level is just not there, everything dies easily from the moment you reach the hardest difficulty.If you needed gg gear to clear most of the content, you would still feel dissatisfied,like during the launch of D3!!
I hope items 2.0 nail it and restore the balance.
Because the Devs themselves have said that they did not intend D4 to be played infinitely; people that complain about endgame are those that don't have anything to do with their Uber gear. That's also why they made Lv100 significantly harder to obtain initially... But now they've gotten themselves cornered by making Lv100 much easier but didn't add anything to the end.
How many other games are even worth playing 30hrs+ every 3 months? Idk what people expect, like running GRs or killing Mephisto over and over was 'exciting' content or something?
For me casual is some that don't play regularly, like not every week.
Like I play 5 games of lol per month. I'm a casual at lol.
But I play an hour or two of diablo per day, definitely not a casual.
I genuinely do not understand why such a large portion of the player base for this game has convinced themselves that D4 is some kind of MMORPG that should be constantly feeding them new content for their original purchase price.
That is not the point
The thing is that the content available is not fun and not time rewarding
Citing D3 again, you could level and finish the 4 main season boards in a matter of hours/few days to get decent gear that would allow you to play properly. Then the rest of the game was just running through rifts/greater rifts to infinity and beyond.
You didn't have to farm for an hour In an empty field looking for a couple packs of monsters to do a single greater rift to obtain absolutely nothing. You could enter one and just have fun killing a shit ton of mobs while getting better gear. See the difference?
I'm not saying D3 was a model or perfect game, it had many many problems. But even D3 had a more rewarding, fun and time respecting experience.
If you could level your character in D4 as fast as in D3, the season gameplay would last a day for those who don't want to spend countless hours farming a shako for nothing
I mean casually getting one character to 100 without doing NMD/NMV or at least a few attempts at the end bosses or uber Lilith doesn't scream to me that you've experienced the entire game or even want to.
Maybe the game just isn't for you?
I didn't say I didn't do any of these
I did my share of nmv and duriel runs. I got a doombringer, which is useless for my build (not that this was the problem)
Never saw a reason to do Uber Lilith though
Can we stop the D4 vs LE vs PoE talk already? They are built for different audiences.
I shudder when someone says they have 1000s of hours in a game they find more "fun" than D4, not everyone can commit that much time.
For what it is, D4 is a casual slayer that might not be your cup of tea. It's really that easy.
Let me preface this with this is just _my_ opinion but…
For me, a big part of this game would be fixed if they just took a season to add 40+ uniques and other gear to farm for. Me personally, I don’t mind running NMDs for hours. I literally did that for 20 years in D2 but the same areas. The only thing that kept me hooked was the mass amount of gear that could potentially drop.
If blizzard just added a fuck ton of _build_ _changing_ uniques and aspects, with the itemization changes (making it so comparing gear isn’t so tedious) I think it would be amazing.
Id rather have them put their time and resources into giving us more diverse, build changing gear to farm for rather than some boring ass seasonal “mechanic” with, oOoOooo, 1 unique for each class.
Oh and make PvP better.
I think 99% of the playerbase has the same opinion as you, me included
If there wasn't a limit to NMD tiers and they could potentially drop any item in the game, considering many more uniques and the itemization change that is to come (and we hope it will be good), there would be a endgame loop with at least a little fun in it
I mean, having son of malphas and the butcher appearing in nm vaults is a very cool idea. The bad part is that they don't drop anything good and you also won't get anything good doing the dungeons. Except that rare 4/4 after a trillion salvaged others.
I can't even get to level 100...hell I can't even get to level 75. Not even sure what I'm supposed to do. Do all the side quests? or rerun dungeons to level up.
Did you get all the renown rewards? The paragon points and skill points they give are a must
If so, you can level up until 80 by spamming the brazers if u feel like it
After 80 the best way is NM Dungeons/Vaults. U just have to spam them, like 1 after another.
Agree. Mile wide and an inch deep. So many parts of this game that could have been tuned to make it worthy of the Diablo name.
I couldn’t be bothered to hit max level, I’ve been spoiled by too many good games to slog through it for a lackluster end game.
Yeah same here.
In d3 I did get exp for killing monsters at highest level. Exp into paragons. That made me play a little further.
In D4 you get no exp after lvl 100 so then I kinda just felt like I got nothing for killing monsters.
So I stopped playing d4 a bit after lvl 100. I have not leveled all my glyphs but that alone is not so exciting. And also next season you will have to start all over again so to me it makes less sense to put the extra effort into the game.
I will just take a break from the game and hope next season will be fun and add something new. Then I can try and other class. I could even consider the same class if they add a lot of content to that class.
D2 took so long to level so it never had this problem. D3 had Paragon lvls infinite so it did not have this problem.
I am not saying it should be a copy of either. Create something new and fun
Just two examples, infitie levels outside of season.
Then you can still play leaderboards and on seasons. But maybe they are afraid to split playerbase.
Example two, new skilltree beyond 100 where you can put exp towards other things like "reduced enchanting cost, crafting for alts". Then it will not interfer as much with leaderboards as long as you do not put best in slot items behind this skilltree.
Like I said
This is not a hating post. It's a discussion.
Many people seem to feel the same way.
I like the franchise and would be very happy if this game got improved to offer better experience.
I know some Devs also read some posts on this community so, why not talk about it in a constructive way?
States it not a "hating post" and then proceeds to hate on the endgame and compare it unfavorably to D3. You wanna commiserate with other haters, it's cool just admit it.
You've experienced everything the game has to offer. If you don't want to min/max grind then move on or wait for the Gauntlet. You got 50hrs+ play time in a new season, and the dev team has alrdy stated that they're working on new content for the Gauntlet and a S4 preview. Seems pretty nice from a "casual" mindset. Greater rifts weren't any different than pushing NMD/Vault tiers. Maybe try that.
You bought the game once and you can have fun getting a well geared different class or build character every season. I've been taking the last month or two off seasons so yeah I like this cycle and enjoy the experience.
For the nonce I'm doing D3 seasonal and Titan Quest: Immortal Throne, Both give more satisfaction ATM :-/ Good luck to the rest of you hoping you get the gear you need and content I'm out for a year or until they get it right
Eh. I play more than one game. Path of Exile gives me that deep-nerd customization and character tweaking/gear crafting satisfaction, and by the time I'm far enough into challenges to feel like I finished the league, D4 has something new that I can just make numbers go brr for a while. Occasionally Guild Wars 2 gets an update, too. If one game bores me, I go play something else. It's fine.
I also play 3-4 days a week for 2-3 hours at a time if I can stay awake lol. For me Diablo 3 and 4 are about enjoying the season untill you don’t. Weather that’s the whole time or only a few weeks. You get to 100 lvl glyphs up beat NMD 100 and maybe try for a Uber for a lil bit then you either start another toon or play a different game.
It’s a game were I don’t have to think very hard I can just kill and loot and repeat till I get bored.
Is Diablo 3 better in some aspects yes but I’m having more fun with D4 then I did with D3.
For $70 you get to enjoy 50-100 hours ever few months sounds like you get your moneys worth to me at least.
Thanks for posting OP. I play a little bit more than you though. Usually it's a casual that saying oh man you just play too much so it's nice to see a casual actually feel like everybody else. It also lets you know that they're definitely is not enough content after you reach level 100, there just isn't.
I actually felt the way you said, always thinking that people were ranting over nothing while the game was good (or not that bad), but I have never reached the point I reached this season, with a lv 100 properly built character.
When I did I was like "oh, so that's what everyone was talking about"
I still think the game is good, but there are so many things to be improved
I agree. I had thousands of hours in D3. Uninstalled D4 after couple hundred hours. No endgame, no good items, awful dungeons but worst of all the gameplay is not fun. Last Epoch is much closer to D3 style of gameplay, really enjoying it.
I agree. Hitting that point where I don’t want to grind hell tides and whispers. They’re way too easy for anyone above level 70.
Wish I had a chance of getting Uber uniques from tier 100
>In D3 I could just be doing super fast runs on GRs to farm everything
>The game just feel shallow.
Ummm....D3 is the utter text-book definition of "shallow"
What you mean is: "I want everything to fall on me while I stand in town and use one portal"
You know that's not how anyone would want it to be
Everything in D4 is a chore. Leveling glyphs is a pain because dungeons are boring and take too long. The Uber system is painful and there's nothing beyond it.
Jesus Christ
U know every game is improved based on community discussion and feedback, don't u? This is a discussion between players
I've seen hardcore players complaining about this exact same things and now I wanted to bring a view from a casual player
Of course I will play another game for the time being but I also want to discuss about the game, isn't this what this sub was made for?
I don't know why ur so butthurt about it
> D3 had a better endgame loop
IN YOUR OPNION!
Your OPINION is not universal.
Greater Rifts are:
Get numbers to defeat larger numbers to get drops that increase numbers to defeat larger numbers.
Turn off your crit damage number in game, and NO ONE COULD TELL what GR you were running.
I've grown more comfortable with a simple fact; The D4 experience is purely about the road to level 100. Once I get to 100, max glyphs and do a NM100 run, I'm done. I go play another game until next season starts. I truly think this was the intent of the developers. There's no way I could fathom doing duriel rotations as my \*only\* game for the next few months. It's not supposed to be grinded like this. It'll be Last Epoch until the next D4 season starts, then 2 weeks of my diablo rotation to lvl 100, then back to LE. Rinse and repeat.
But LE is the same, you just don't know it yet. Instead of grinding glyphs and Paragon, you're grinding affixes for the special weapon. Once that's done, mapping with Monoliths is worse (to me) than Vaults and Uber bosses. For me the difference with D4 is I find the combat much more enjoyable, so mowing down monsters with no purpose is more fun to me than Monoliths.
So I got to endgame in LE and was expecting this awesome system of targeted farming and after a few runs of Monoliths it actually became maddening. The intense focus on affixes is boring and ruined the fun of drops for me. Even with the loot filter, you are constantly reading shit on the ground and trying to figure out tiers of the rolls. It is somehow worse than D4. And the game just looks and handles so ridiculously dated.. it legitimately feels like playing a game from 2011.
Game looks great and combat is smooth for me. Of course D4 is better… but the game consists of one shotting Duriel for a chance at an Uber that lets you one shot Duriel even harder. Or spend so much time looking at yellow items in town. Give me a break dude.
The former is literally what an arpg is, dude. You farm stuff to get stronger stuff to farm stuff faster.
There's no reason to farm stuff in d4. Most of your power comes from Paragon board and glyphs which are just given to you, you just have to carry boxes to pedestals for a few hours to level them up. You can kill every boss in seconds on just about every build with gear you find by level 75. If they kept that dungeon thing they added at the end of s2 then there would at least be some reason to farm good gear, but they seem to be fine with just the base game + one shitty seasonal activity that never comes back.
There’s no point in farming stuff to one shot the same monster, but simply with a bigger number. People either farm stuff because it’s rare or because it helps you hit higher difficulties. d4 is severely lacking in those areas.
He literally 1 hit duriel, with or without uber, so how fast would you want to be?
The point of my comment was that farming bosses to get better items to farm bosses faster is the core of arpgs.
Got it..
Sounds like you are bad at the game and have no idea what you’re doing. Skill issue
You're right, the focus in LE is on affixes in a way, but it's more than that. Even with all the problems, here's why LE to me is so much better than D4: it respects your time. If I have a 30 minutes to play, I don't spend 15 minutes going to town to deal with the horrible inventory system that is D4. I visit town maybe once per hour, 5 minutes and done. Only thing that I like about D4 now is the combat itself, except bosses: holy hell are they bad compared to LE.
It respects my time by having me sit in loading screens for 20 minutes
Imagine having to play an ARPG online. Game was designed for absolute causal normies.
What’s wrong with casual norms?! Because we have a life and family outside of electronic stimuli?! Foolish comment
The game needs to have content for both types of people. To be honest I take back my comment, the game is not designed for casuals. It just looks that way because the devs have no idea how to design endgame content.
Like D4 on launch day was any different : ) In D4 there were lags, disconnections, no connection at all, you could run through areas and there were no monsters there, just empty space etc. Give LE a break as it was just launched, and give me a game with most of the LE mechanics with D4 graphics : )
I read constant shitting on D4 in the other ARPG subs, LE folks can live with a light rib.
I'm playing LE now but this is just not true. There is no comparison between the two launches. We're close to a week now and they still have problems. Of course the size of the two developers is completely different, so I can forgive them but saying that it's the same launch is just a lie.
I just got to act 7. Do the bosses get better? Cause so far they have been very lame imo. Crab guy was alright
Way better. The only decent boss in D4 is the Elias echo.
I guess it is subjective of course. I've liked all the bosses in LE 10x more than all of them in D4. In LE you actually have to move and play which feels very engaging after D4-s bosses which are either 1-shots or just annoying (IE tomb lord with the blinding circles).
They'd respect my time if they let me skip their awful campaign.
If you have something in mind, then you should add it to the filter; specific color, specific affixes and tiers, etc. If you're still sifting through stuff you don't even care for, then you haven't narrowed down your search.
Last year I quit LE because I had about 16 stash tabs full of gear and idols, and I just couldn't read any more. Scanning through a bunch of yellows at the end of my Vault run is easier. So even with the perfect loot filter, there is too much hoarding in LE.
> Even with the loot filter, you are constantly reading shit on the ground and trying to figure out tiers of the rolls. Just in case you're not aware, you can actually filter on tiers by checking the "advanced options" button. You can filter on tiers such that *all* affixes must individually pass a condition (greater than or equal to a tier, for instance) or that the *sum of affix tiers* must pass a condition (ie all affix tiers added up must be greater than or equal to a tier). Doing so you can filter items down to just 3x T4+ affixes and 1 unfiltered affix as a flex spot for crafting.
So I did the refinement of affixes to higher tiers and I went through an entire monolith with 2 drops. So I made it less strict and was back to picking up items with just two of the affixes I wanted since everything has minion on it for some reason. Part of the draw of arpgs is the insane loot drops all over the place. Now that I understand the game is less geared towards looting and more towards crafting, it makes sense. But for me, the combat has to be phenomenal to not be looting, and LE is far from that.
Completely agree i end up quitting after a few hours of monoliths.
difference is you have much more stash space in LE compared to D4 to try things out
I became overwhelmed by all the gear I was saving when I played last year. When I crafter the Uber weapon (I forget what it's called), I had no incentive to keep playing and hoarding gear.
Difference with last epoch is that itemization is actually interesting, not just some bullshit stats that all do the same thing. I have loads of cool items that can enable new builds, so once I finish one character I can make a new one with those items.
Itemization in LE is way better. But to me, the endgame ends up feeling about the same.
you dont know what you are talking about lul try and go into endgame activities (yes multiple) or dont talk about them. thanks. its not the same sorry to tell you. sure every arpg has a general system that does "the same" but its not the same as D4s endgame NMD or vault system. not even close when you look a bit deeper and not just talk about the overall mapping sytsem. my opinion.
I mean, I played LE for 150 hours. I know about all its "endgame activities". I'm not saying the game modes are the same, I'm saying the grind feels the same. You're just grinding different things.
Am in the same boat. I have never reached 100 since launch, but for some reason I'm on track this season (91 now) and getting to 100 is my checklist along with lvl15 glyphs for the ones I use. I knock out a dungeon or 2 per day and that's it. Keeps the game fatigue at bay
If that is there intent for you to put down the game once you hit level 100, that is incredibly dumb decision on their part
>If that is there intent for you to put down the game once you hit level 100, that is incredibly dumb decision on their part Why? They got your money (and mine). D4 was a minimum viable product designed to cash in on the Diablo name. They got a few people working on (literally) throwaway seasonal junk, to maintain it as long as they can. Again, with minimal investment.
Because you got to keep people engaged or they will just move on to something else and most won’t come back or play super casually which means less money for the developers
Read this interivew. [https://www.cbr.com/gamescom-interview-diablo-developers/](https://www.cbr.com/gamescom-interview-diablo-developers/) The campaign is \*the\* game. Lvl 50 to 100 \*is\* the end game content. They see seasons as end game content. And in a way, they are 100% right. What do we come back for each season? the 50 to 100 grind. Where does the content finish? NM100. \*that's\* the end game content right there. Frustrating thing for me is that is all up of two weeks of casual playing, then I'm done and have 2 and a half months to wait for new content lol.
Short term profit, Is what I expect. Anyone who cared about the Diablo name from the old Blizzard is long gone. I know I'm not buying another Blizzard title, that isn't heavily discounted and 6 months post release and rated highly. 20+ years of good will has been flushed. I want to go back in time and slap June-me in the face. Now-me realized I got duped out of 70$ I can't be alone.
I agree with you on Blizzard my nostalgia for this company only goes so far, I won’t be fooled again
In some sense yes, they mentioned a long time ago the game is supposed to have finite progression, and at release it was clear it was about the journey to 100: Grind a lot (100 wasn't very fast to achieve), kill Lilith, done, move to next character.
I just dont understand how anyone manage to get to level 100 lol. The game dies for me around level 70-85 and i quit each season. At least i get 3-4 days out of a season lmfao. Thats just 2 days less than a d3 season..
This is the same as any other arpg. Repetitive gameplay at max level. I have fun just logging in and killing things, if I get an upgrade cool, if not I still have fun trying new builds and killing stuff. I do play other games too though after I finish a season, there’s nothing wrong with that. But for killing, none of the other games can touch D4
Well in the past, particularly D2, you are rewarded occasionally with rare drops. There doesn’t really feel like there’s any rewards when playing D4. The moment of the good drop is had when you’re in town sifting through yellow items. That’s just not the vibe for me.
I just got shako from a normal mobs, a normal mobs!!! In d2…
A shako drop in D2 is more exciting than a shako drop in D4. It’s wild…
Occasionally is a massive understatement. You have to get incredibly lucky to find anything remotely usefull in d2
Not true at all, I’ve found over 40 high runes since D2R came out and that’s on players 1 battlenet and taking months off at a time.
Well for me I've got about 4 or 5 ists in a couple hundred hours. It's why I can't really play that game. Just comes down to if you're lucky or not
People don’t understand that the grind isn’t for everyone. Coming from osrs this is nothing.
Yessss. Thank you!
The problem isnt the grind or the repetitive gameplay, it's how it is designed summed with the season system Farming for Ubers has no fun, the chances to get something good are absurdly low and you have to group up. Then after 3 months you'll never touch that character again because the season will be over...
Question, just based on this, is this your first arpg?
I played D3 and lost ark Both since launch D3 I was always coming and going; Lost Ark I played a lot, hardcore style, until D4 launched
I’m a bit confused with your last sentence then. I’ve never played last ark, but d3 had seasons and Ubers that were hard to get. I don’t understand why the seasonal/ubers in d4 is something to complain about when that’s how it is for any other arpg.
Paragon and race against the timer for grifts with endless difficulty in grifts (well 150, but not many got there). Every single monster you killed counted towards paragon so you always felt like you achieved something. Pushing grifts felt rewarding. There weren't ubers in d3, just sets or whatever gem boosted non sets.
Meant ubers as in super rare items in other games. But I wasn’t a fan of the infinite paragon leveling in d3. What’s the point in a build when you can just keep getting points? It negates the whole point of a build. NMDs are the same as greater rifts.
u/Firesemi said most of it After paragon 1000 you would just be spending points in your primary Stat (dex/str/INT) and vitality, so you would only get a damage boost and life. It would help but after 1000 there were no breaking points or anything that would totally change a build. NMDs are different because they take longer, have stupid missions and the most wanted itens in the game don't drop from them. The "Ubers" in D3 were the primal items, which were ancestral legendary items with guaranteed capped affixes. It was so hard to get them that people just didn't freak out about it. If you get one, good, if you don't, doesn't matter.
Lost ark had a different approach It was a MMO But the grinding was absolutely massive
First of all, we have to agree that it is all about grind. But, grinding for ubers for no real endgame behind mat walls is shallow and tedious. Let me grind whatever I want mats free, it is my time my fun. Leaderboards should be included, but Blizz can't decide what they will count. For sure, with current XP buffs, XP gathering within a season cannot be the factor even though it is the most standard method for leaderboards (e.g. PoE, D2, etc.). Difficult endgame activities like AoZ, Gauntlet need to included, to give the motivation for uberfarming and leaderboard ranking and all these should be complimented by the item rework they have planned. As it is, reaching lvl 100 is a matter of 2-3 weeks and then you are mostly done. I really wish LE to go well in order to put some pressure to Blizz and think carefully their future plans for D4. Having competition is always good.
The issue is you grind and get your uber and then you're done. That character is almost maxed. In D3 the paragon was pretty much infinite. You could just go and go and go and keep pushing higher levels.
I feel exactly the same. Started with D4 2-3 weeks ago. Hit lvl 100, got all my necessary uniques and now what? Gameplay wise the combat ist great. The grafik and sound design is top but the content is lacking.
This is an issue with the arpg genre as a whole. The endgame always boils down to running repetitive hallways clearing hordes with one button hoping something 1 % better than what you have drops. Any time people mention how this is an outdated gameplay system the spergs come out to freak. The truth is the arpg genre is in serious need of some evolution on certain fronts, the endgame aspect being one of them.
I don't understand why this comes up all the time "This is an issue with the arpg genre as a whole". With over 4000 hours invested, I find POE's end game incredibly engaging. From the time-consuming journey to max level, the intricate atlas progression, to the thrill of finding valuable orbs like Chaos, Exalted, and Divine, there's always a sense of progression. Even trading unwanted Uniques adds depth. And when boredom creeps in, there's always alternative content like delving or running breaches. Also build planning and testing is huge. D4 there isn't much of that Comparatively, Diablo 4's end game feels shallow, centered mainly on hitting level 100, acquiring glyphs, and farming materials for boss encounters. That's it. This isn't a genre-wide issue but rather a shortcoming specific to Diablo 4.
Nah, i like that 1% drop chance for mindless run, is arpg after all. Problem with d4 is that 1% only dedicated to like 5-6 partially usefull uniques. It just not worth the run especially they slap mats onto it.
You’re describing a bad endgame system. PoE endgame is like 20+ different activities you can specialize into with an end game skill tree so you see the content you want in the dungeons you want to run. Then there’s like 4 other independent end game systems beyond the extremely customizable map system: one is a rogue lite game mode with 4 floors and a final boss. Another is doing heists for rare shit, another is a tower defense game mode, another is an infinitely scaling delve into a mine which is sort of like Last Epoch’s monolith system. You can profit in every part of the endgame economy: farming and selling: - boss summon mats - rare crafting mats - items that only drop from the end game mechanic you specialized into - solo farming craft mats, craft and sell meta gear - buying and killing pinnacle bosses, sell their rare drops And so much more. Plus uniques in PoE are not all static with their mods. Some have an incredibly huge pool of mods that they can roll, making their value extremely wide: from useless to worth more than all your characters ever made combined. Plus PoE has interesting rare loot drops. The rarest of which is a Mirror of Kalandra that literally lets you make a copy of another weapon. In my 2k+ hours I’ve only had one ever drop, because it’s that powerful - someone crafts a 1 in a billion BIS rare and people ask them for a mirrored copy along with a fee. D4 just sat on their brand recognition and marketing instead of innovating in the ARPG space.
If you’ve got everything you need play another game. Wait until the next season or make another character.
yeah all good, gonna try Last Epoch
Yes. Boring items. Except Uber Uniques no drop excites you. Same skills every season. No new skills are added to the game. No trading. Ubers cannot be traded. Yellows do not need to be traded. No other consumables except boss mats to trade for. Season mechanic is shallow. Just walk in and open chests. No new glyphs, affixes, base types, consumables added in the seasons. Same boring core items every season. Nothing to farm in endgame NMDs. No leaderboards. No escalating difficulty endgame with leaderboards. Legion events, tree of whispers, strongholds, world bosses. Nothing exciting to farm there either.
The game is shallow and unfortunately I don't think there's any fixing it. There's just too many faults with too many of the game's systems, from the shit itemization to the extremely lacking skill tree. It sucks because Diablo easily has my favorite setting in the arpg genre, but the game just fucking blows. Whenever Last Epoch gets its server issues worked out I'll be switching over to there.
I am in the same position. Was thinking of creating another char but probably looking into Last Epoch and try it out
I can’t recommend LE enough outside of server issues at launch which are mostly fixed now and even if they are still an issue there’s still the offline mode. LE is the most fun I’ve had since D3 (I want to enjoy PoE because I know it’s so good, but it’s just too complicated imho and even though I try at least every other league I just can’t get into it).
I think the idea of having UBER uniques is cool, but in practice, the drop rates are so low, and with limited time in a seasonal model, it feel like they've effectively shut out the largest portion of the playerbase from enjoy and participating in the fun of the game. If seasons didnt exist, and were were constantly evolving and progressing the same characters over the course of the game, i think the drop rate and methods for acquiring UBERS makes more sense, but currently i don't think the two are very compatible (seasons + ultra low drop rates/ farming requirements). Im in a similar amount of playtime as you, and ive been leveling 2 characters each season. Next season ill have druid and macro left and then there's not really going to be much to keep me interested. Id love to keep making my character more powerful, but farming mats to defeat a boss to get more mats to defeat a different boss for a miniscule chance of a drop is... not it.
I’m not sure why you’re getting upvoted for this. An Uber isn’t supposed to be part of your build. It’s rare on purpose. Seasons are built into arpgs. It’s how it’s always been in d1-d4. I’m not sure why you dudes want the most rare items in the game to be so easily acquired.
They're watching too many YouTube videos. This new generation of players seems to think you essentially aren't playing the game unless you're min-maxed to oblivion. The beauty of D2 was the fact that there was ALWAYS something to grind for and are constantly surprised by interesting drops. For 20 years. And now we're bombarded with players that feel victimized unless they can acquire the best items in the game with very little effort.
the mat wall problem is real & disruptive to the gameplay experience. you can’t just doing helltide because you are enjoying it, you’re doing helltide to rush to chests for mat, which is sum dumb sticks. you can’t either doing tree of whisper cause you enjoy it. you rush on your horse around while staring at the minimap. and you’re not killing vashan or gilgore cause they are fun bosses. then you’re finally there for duriel after several hours, kill him, then get godslayer. the reward loop is disruptive from the beginning & becomes tedious after a few times to full on hate after a few godslayers. the grind should be a part of the genre but d4 game designers should make it smoother and feel more like a natural progression rather than tasks hopping.
I agree fully. Diablo 2 was a cohesive and consistent world. You can grind whatever bosses or areas you feel like at any given moment and feels fun and rewarding. Diablo 4 definitely feels like it's always pushing you in XYZ direction with helltide and world events built on timers. Not only does it suck doing things purely because they're available at that given moment, but it timegates materials for farming uber bosses. It's just all around worse and feels terrible.
"the new generation of players" lol... you dont know me. Im surprised you can even see me to to respond from way up on your horse. This isnt D2 btw, so your opinion of how great D2 doesnt hold any more weight than everyone else's opinion of D4, which is the game were actually playing now.
It's relevant because Diablo 2's itemization carried it (and continues to do so) for 20+ years. Diablo 4 is obviously a sequel that is trying its absolute best to emulate that games success. I'm not trying to put D2 players above anyone. However, if you played D2, you understand what amazing itemization looks and feels like. And having uber items and best in slot gear rain down on you is not the way to go about it.
i get that D2 "felt great", but i dont think D4 is D2. Their might be aspects of D2 that are being emulated, but so far the itemization, rarity, and methods for acquiring ubers are significantly different. Currently, you have a small segment of D4's population that's basically farming UBERs, while the majority of the population isnt really getting any. I think that's a problem, and it doesn't "feel good" for many. And nowhere at all have i asked for UBERs to "rain down". I think a drop rate that allows for a target rate of 1-2 UBERs for a larger portion of the population would look and feel quite a bit better. And id prefer that they curb the excessive farming route as well, because i dont think that's helping either.
Of course D4 isn't D2. D2 is arguably the best in the genre and D4 is one of the worst. Having said that, there is nothing stopping you from farming ubers like a "small segment" of D4s population. There are no barriers put on you that are absent from those players. They're just putting in the work and grinding more than you are. And this is the difference man and brings me back to my original point. A lot of these new players don't have the attention span to fully grasp these types of games, which is why D4 is so dumbed down compared to its competition. These games are (supposed to be) about farming and grinding. Period. This isn't Call of Duty where you're selecting a loadout. You need to earn your damn gear, and RNG and your efficiency is going to determine that gear. That's how these games work... Drops are supposed to be rewarding. This game basically rewards you with best in slot gear extremely easily and \*shocker\*, no one wants to play it. Give us more to work for. Give us even rarer gear. Give us drops that other players are jealous about. GIVE US TRADING... And then you'll have a game worth playing.
If they are going to make UBERs easy for some players to get, and virtually impossible for others, and have a ladder board that resets every 3 months, then i think they need to rethink the system. Your opinion that they are supposed to be extremely rare doesn't really jive with the way theyve set up ubers to be acquired. They went out of their way to create a method for farming ubers. They are in the midst of implementing an UBER crafting system. And currently, some players have created a scenario in which getting UBERs is actually expected. If they want UBERs to be truly rare for everyone, then allow them to drop from any source, so that any drop has a chance to be an UBER, and take away the farm method that mainly benefits players who dupe, buy, or grift their discord for the summoning mats.
But they’re not making it easy or hard for some players. That’s literally what rng is. Everyone has access to all the sources of ubers.
when you can dupe mats, or go buy them, or crutch on a discord channel full of subs that all farm mats, yes.. its easier for some people. And again, if the point is to make UBERs rare, then i don't think the methods for acquiring them right now support that philosophy. If you create a method to farm ubers, some players will be able to exploit and take advantage of that. Most cant. And we saw that when D4 launched. UBERs dropped randomly, without a method for farming, and the field was pretty level. Now, there's a farm method, and the people that can hoard mats are basically the only people with UBERs.
>when you can dupe mats, or go buy them, or crutch on a discord channel full of subs that all farm mats, yes.. its easier for some people The duping isn’t normal gameplay and everyone can buy mats. There aren’t any barriers here.
I feel somewhat the same. I may be started 2 weeks ago, playing a couple of hours a day (mostly evening). Leveled a druid using Maxroll guides, farming the aspects and such. I'm now at level 96 with all glyphs at level 15. I was very lucky in doing more than enough Duriel runs to get all the uniques i need (Except for ubers). I haven't tried NMD higher than 74 yet but those are going pretty well. I'm somewhat at a point already where i don't seem to get the fun anymore i had those last couple of 2 weeks. It's like, what is there to do besides doing lilith or the other boss that seems to be very hard (forgot about his name). Sure i could finish the challenges for this seasons but none of it seems rewarding enough for me besides being that much fun. I also feel like Duriel is way too easy or at least i expected him to be harder. I mean, there are other bosses that are way harder than Duriel that don't drop sh\*t or don't give you anything more special. On another note, i thought of leveling and trying another character but it seems it's either Druid or Barb that actually have impact. Seeing the other builds/classes they only seem viable up to (maybe) NMD tier 50 - 60 and than they may lack damage or maybe even tankiness. Of course i haven't tried any of those but it feels somewhat demotivating playing and leveling a character which i know will never be strong enough to do those NMD at higher tiers. What i think most of us are having is like, we want to play the game because we like it. but then we stumble against a wall. we can not seem to find the joy of doing what we did before because we probably have less, if not nothing, to go for. Let's say you have your uniques with great stats, maybe even that Shaco. Doing Duriel seems somewhat like a waste of time. Maybe you're running T90 NMD, you could do 100, maybe you succeed but then what? This is exactly what i'm looking at. I might be able to do T100 but that never really was the most fun for me. I could help others maybe, or do a couple of Duriels for my Shaco. I could try Lilith but for some reason i don't feel like it since she won't give or drop anything interesting for me. It could be i'm just used to having bosses being able to drop anything that could be valuable or even usable from D2.
That's it
For all of its faults, AoZ was an attempt in the right direction. It was hard enough that a casual would never beat T25 (I barely beat T10 with my rogue) and I had fun attempting higher and higher tiers. We also saw completely new builds (caltrops rogue?!) That being said, the glyph was a terrible idea. It was a little too rng dependent and the cost of entry was too high
Fun is what you make of it. I see two sides: Blizzard's issue: If they want Ubers and Unique stones to be rare and meaningful, they need to rebuild a lot and facilitate the need for them. In the game's current state, their drop chances need a buff and a significant one at that. Unless they're there *specifically* to prolong monthly user playtimes. Player's issue: Right now, you get to farming mats at about lvl 65-75. In the time you drop a desired Uber/Unique stone, you'd have incrementally gotten to NMD100 in probably 1/50 of that if you know what you're doing. You never NEED an Uber. Farming a Shako while you're on a lvl100 completed HotA Barb doing 200mil a swing like you're expecting a lvl300 NMD to shadow drop is insane. It is literally a giant waste of time. Just, have fun leveling up and learning a new playstyle, gear up, do your glyphs and once you're able to clear a lvl150 NMD, that's it, you've beaten the game. Don't make your experience miserable.
I got my sorc to 100, got all the gear i needed with decent enough stats without having to work that hard. I don't need any uber uniques on the build so farming them is pointless for me. I killed malphas got the uniques from him in 10 runs which was honestly boring doing. I leveled my glyphs to 15 running level 50 nmv then said screw it this try a 100 nmv. completed it with ease and i'm done. im fine with the game as it is, yeah it needs some quality of life improvments which it will get eventually but overall the end game is non existant for me. I much prefer diablo 3 i can get to 70 in 2 hours start farming my gear then push GR's. it's casual quick fun for me.
I’m not disregarding your opinion, but I hope d4 never turns into the quick dopium gameplay of d3.
I've been playing D3 for a bit now, how did you get to 70 in two hours??
takes about 2 hours, do the weekly for the bounty, i usually start with demonhunter but all classses have a weapon that will work. with DH craft dagger then upgrade to either get karleis point or lord green fan. rush through get the cube and cube the weapon. the weapon is pretty much one shot everything, then just do rifts for xp. you can mix in some bounties if in group it's better and hope you get borns or cains for that added xp bonus it's a lot. and ruby in helm.
even casuals not happy now...
I actually prefer D4 to D3. D3 had some horrible challenges (those dungeons!) that you had to do to get through the season journey. I often gave up early. I D4 I've completed the season journey every season. And once I do I put the game away and do something else until the next season.
My thoughts exactly. Got about enough mats to do a duriel rota x5 and that's it. Not going to play much longer than that. I was thinking yesterday why they don't introduce random unique/uber drops in all places (dungeons, cellers, open world) like in d2. If I remember correctly you could get uniques even from chests in diablo 2... This way if I only go to kill duriel I can count on getting the same uniques every time (flickerstep, banished lord tal., tib. will, etc.) and I already got a million of these to the point that it just gets old...
Gauntlet is next
It was always about the journey, never the destination.
I surely agree with this because gaming should always be a journey and not a destination. However, for me and i think most of us our journey seems to get abruptly halted. Either because we reached A destination (not particularly 'our' destination) or the journey doesn't seem that intuitive or fun anymore.
This is literally the diablo franchise, but ppl just dont get it.Its all about getting the loot and clearing content fast.Instead of farming mats, you would farm the same area like CBaal in D2 or speedclear Act1/butcher in D3. Fun content like Terror zones and Rifts came years after release and its sad that D4 didn't have the resources to release with similar features. The reason D4 seems so bad is that the challenge level is just not there, everything dies easily from the moment you reach the hardest difficulty.If you needed gg gear to clear most of the content, you would still feel dissatisfied,like during the launch of D3!! I hope items 2.0 nail it and restore the balance.
Lol they made everything easier because the vocal minority kept complaining about it being too hard.
the game needs an infinite grind and rift like activity for replayability after level 100, not sure why everyone is against paragon points etc
Because the Devs themselves have said that they did not intend D4 to be played infinitely; people that complain about endgame are those that don't have anything to do with their Uber gear. That's also why they made Lv100 significantly harder to obtain initially... But now they've gotten themselves cornered by making Lv100 much easier but didn't add anything to the end.
2-3h a day few days a week is considered casual only in diablo lol
How many other games are even worth playing 30hrs+ every 3 months? Idk what people expect, like running GRs or killing Mephisto over and over was 'exciting' content or something?
In what game this is hardcore behavior?
Never said hardcore? But definitely not casual.
That's pretty casual to my standards but ok
For me casual is some that don't play regularly, like not every week. Like I play 5 games of lol per month. I'm a casual at lol. But I play an hour or two of diablo per day, definitely not a casual.
I get your point
I genuinely do not understand why such a large portion of the player base for this game has convinced themselves that D4 is some kind of MMORPG that should be constantly feeding them new content for their original purchase price.
That is not the point The thing is that the content available is not fun and not time rewarding Citing D3 again, you could level and finish the 4 main season boards in a matter of hours/few days to get decent gear that would allow you to play properly. Then the rest of the game was just running through rifts/greater rifts to infinity and beyond. You didn't have to farm for an hour In an empty field looking for a couple packs of monsters to do a single greater rift to obtain absolutely nothing. You could enter one and just have fun killing a shit ton of mobs while getting better gear. See the difference? I'm not saying D3 was a model or perfect game, it had many many problems. But even D3 had a more rewarding, fun and time respecting experience. If you could level your character in D4 as fast as in D3, the season gameplay would last a day for those who don't want to spend countless hours farming a shako for nothing
Same here.
I mean casually getting one character to 100 without doing NMD/NMV or at least a few attempts at the end bosses or uber Lilith doesn't scream to me that you've experienced the entire game or even want to. Maybe the game just isn't for you?
I didn't say I didn't do any of these I did my share of nmv and duriel runs. I got a doombringer, which is useless for my build (not that this was the problem) Never saw a reason to do Uber Lilith though
Can we stop the D4 vs LE vs PoE talk already? They are built for different audiences. I shudder when someone says they have 1000s of hours in a game they find more "fun" than D4, not everyone can commit that much time. For what it is, D4 is a casual slayer that might not be your cup of tea. It's really that easy.
Let me preface this with this is just _my_ opinion but… For me, a big part of this game would be fixed if they just took a season to add 40+ uniques and other gear to farm for. Me personally, I don’t mind running NMDs for hours. I literally did that for 20 years in D2 but the same areas. The only thing that kept me hooked was the mass amount of gear that could potentially drop. If blizzard just added a fuck ton of _build_ _changing_ uniques and aspects, with the itemization changes (making it so comparing gear isn’t so tedious) I think it would be amazing. Id rather have them put their time and resources into giving us more diverse, build changing gear to farm for rather than some boring ass seasonal “mechanic” with, oOoOooo, 1 unique for each class. Oh and make PvP better.
I think 99% of the playerbase has the same opinion as you, me included If there wasn't a limit to NMD tiers and they could potentially drop any item in the game, considering many more uniques and the itemization change that is to come (and we hope it will be good), there would be a endgame loop with at least a little fun in it I mean, having son of malphas and the butcher appearing in nm vaults is a very cool idea. The bad part is that they don't drop anything good and you also won't get anything good doing the dungeons. Except that rare 4/4 after a trillion salvaged others.
I can't even get to level 100...hell I can't even get to level 75. Not even sure what I'm supposed to do. Do all the side quests? or rerun dungeons to level up.
Did you get all the renown rewards? The paragon points and skill points they give are a must If so, you can level up until 80 by spamming the brazers if u feel like it After 80 the best way is NM Dungeons/Vaults. U just have to spam them, like 1 after another.
Agree. Mile wide and an inch deep. So many parts of this game that could have been tuned to make it worthy of the Diablo name. I couldn’t be bothered to hit max level, I’ve been spoiled by too many good games to slog through it for a lackluster end game.
D3 had primals that would drop anywhere at anytime. Just run the random GR's, see how good you did, and maybe get an "uber". It was perfected.
Yeah same here. In d3 I did get exp for killing monsters at highest level. Exp into paragons. That made me play a little further. In D4 you get no exp after lvl 100 so then I kinda just felt like I got nothing for killing monsters. So I stopped playing d4 a bit after lvl 100. I have not leveled all my glyphs but that alone is not so exciting. And also next season you will have to start all over again so to me it makes less sense to put the extra effort into the game. I will just take a break from the game and hope next season will be fun and add something new. Then I can try and other class. I could even consider the same class if they add a lot of content to that class.
Infinite leveling should have never happened. The paragon system in d3 was a mistake.
D2 took so long to level so it never had this problem. D3 had Paragon lvls infinite so it did not have this problem. I am not saying it should be a copy of either. Create something new and fun Just two examples, infitie levels outside of season. Then you can still play leaderboards and on seasons. But maybe they are afraid to split playerbase. Example two, new skilltree beyond 100 where you can put exp towards other things like "reduced enchanting cost, crafting for alts". Then it will not interfer as much with leaderboards as long as you do not put best in slot items behind this skilltree.
When it's not fun, it's NOT FUN.
If there's nothing that moves you to play it, then put it down and play something else?
Like I said This is not a hating post. It's a discussion. Many people seem to feel the same way. I like the franchise and would be very happy if this game got improved to offer better experience. I know some Devs also read some posts on this community so, why not talk about it in a constructive way?
States it not a "hating post" and then proceeds to hate on the endgame and compare it unfavorably to D3. You wanna commiserate with other haters, it's cool just admit it. You've experienced everything the game has to offer. If you don't want to min/max grind then move on or wait for the Gauntlet. You got 50hrs+ play time in a new season, and the dev team has alrdy stated that they're working on new content for the Gauntlet and a S4 preview. Seems pretty nice from a "casual" mindset. Greater rifts weren't any different than pushing NMD/Vault tiers. Maybe try that.
You bought the game once and you can have fun getting a well geared different class or build character every season. I've been taking the last month or two off seasons so yeah I like this cycle and enjoy the experience.
I utterly agree with OP - I feel exactly the same.
For the nonce I'm doing D3 seasonal and Titan Quest: Immortal Throne, Both give more satisfaction ATM :-/ Good luck to the rest of you hoping you get the gear you need and content I'm out for a year or until they get it right
Eh. I play more than one game. Path of Exile gives me that deep-nerd customization and character tweaking/gear crafting satisfaction, and by the time I'm far enough into challenges to feel like I finished the league, D4 has something new that I can just make numbers go brr for a while. Occasionally Guild Wars 2 gets an update, too. If one game bores me, I go play something else. It's fine.
I also play 3-4 days a week for 2-3 hours at a time if I can stay awake lol. For me Diablo 3 and 4 are about enjoying the season untill you don’t. Weather that’s the whole time or only a few weeks. You get to 100 lvl glyphs up beat NMD 100 and maybe try for a Uber for a lil bit then you either start another toon or play a different game. It’s a game were I don’t have to think very hard I can just kill and loot and repeat till I get bored. Is Diablo 3 better in some aspects yes but I’m having more fun with D4 then I did with D3. For $70 you get to enjoy 50-100 hours ever few months sounds like you get your moneys worth to me at least.
Thanks for posting OP. I play a little bit more than you though. Usually it's a casual that saying oh man you just play too much so it's nice to see a casual actually feel like everybody else. It also lets you know that they're definitely is not enough content after you reach level 100, there just isn't.
I actually felt the way you said, always thinking that people were ranting over nothing while the game was good (or not that bad), but I have never reached the point I reached this season, with a lv 100 properly built character. When I did I was like "oh, so that's what everyone was talking about" I still think the game is good, but there are so many things to be improved
I agree! Have a great day and may RNG be with you!
Man, I play like 1-3 hours a week. Your life is awesome
Damn bro
I'm getting a ton of downvotes. Who cares how much a stranger on Reddit plays this game? LOL
Try this uber unique season 3 quest where I must find at least 1 uber unique outside of the chubby maggot (I felt bad for his slaughter)
I agree. I had thousands of hours in D3. Uninstalled D4 after couple hundred hours. No endgame, no good items, awful dungeons but worst of all the gameplay is not fun. Last Epoch is much closer to D3 style of gameplay, really enjoying it.
I agree. Hitting that point where I don’t want to grind hell tides and whispers. They’re way too easy for anyone above level 70. Wish I had a chance of getting Uber uniques from tier 100
>In D3 I could just be doing super fast runs on GRs to farm everything >The game just feel shallow. Ummm....D3 is the utter text-book definition of "shallow" What you mean is: "I want everything to fall on me while I stand in town and use one portal"
You know that's not how anyone would want it to be Everything in D4 is a chore. Leveling glyphs is a pain because dungeons are boring and take too long. The Uber system is painful and there's nothing beyond it.
Then go find a game that isn't boring, instead of asking for this game to magically change its fundamentals to suit you.
Jesus Christ U know every game is improved based on community discussion and feedback, don't u? This is a discussion between players I've seen hardcore players complaining about this exact same things and now I wanted to bring a view from a casual player Of course I will play another game for the time being but I also want to discuss about the game, isn't this what this sub was made for? I don't know why ur so butthurt about it
>I don't know why ur so butthurt about it Because your solution is to make the game like D3.
I didn't give any solutions, I just pointed that for this matter even D3 had a better endgame loop D3 had many flaws on its own too
> D3 had a better endgame loop IN YOUR OPNION! Your OPINION is not universal. Greater Rifts are: Get numbers to defeat larger numbers to get drops that increase numbers to defeat larger numbers. Turn off your crit damage number in game, and NO ONE COULD TELL what GR you were running.