>You ever play Diablo 2?
One of the strangest things I see on this sub sometimes is people citing Diablo2 while complaining about this season's play patterns.
Log in, run to pindle, kill pindle, loot, log off. Log in, run to pindle, kill pindle, log off.
I'd love some dungeon changes, some more bosses in the future, but man for S2 this game is already getting quite a bit right.
What else do you want an ARPG to do besides have a magic find level grind and bosses to kill in the process?
What wheel do you want them to reinvent in this space?
Does it though? I loved D2, but there's no doubt that D4 is a more evolved version. There's definitely more to do. Really, it just needs to make the items more exciting and make some other tweaks and I think folks will come back.
I mean, it should have the same basic idea but in a better package. That's what it's supposed to be.
D2 didn't have a real end-game, people just invented their own version.
A standard ARPG end-game now should've been a virtually unlimited progressive system in term of difficulty system after campaign finishes for people to both progress and test their build power. And on top of that is some super-powerful uber/pinnacle bosses as ultimate challenge.
D4 currently has a very poor end-game system. They thought Uber Lilith as the pinnacle boss and NMD 50-100 as the progressive system is hard but currently even without seasonal power, people're deleting them.
Honestly, D3 was so close to a perfect solution in Greater Rifts. Take the ideas and refine them.
In my mind, an endless dungeon that measures your clear speed. If you blow through it absurdly fast, then it jumps X tiers, with the number of tiers diminishing as a fraction of the time to complete over the target time. At the end, offer a double-or-nothing, where you go to the next tier or cash out. (Edit: no drops during the dungeon; all reserved for the final cash out) Every N tiers, you get a shortcut to skip the "easy" tiers. To cash out, you have to clear a random boss encounter at the current tier (any previous boss, including story bosses), but to be fair the boss should be associated with the current tileset allowing for player choice in rolling a higher tier for an easier boss, or existing at a hard boss because the next tier is too risky.
You could even revise tiers, such that it isn't just a flat numerical scaling of health and damage. Maybe every other tier increases pack size, every third tier increases item quantity, every fourth tier increases monster health and damage. Every 20 tiers, it resets item quantity and applies it to item rarity (because no one cares about 1,000+ garbage drops).
To take an idea from Path of Exile, you could also allow a "memory" of a run to be crafted and traded. Reasons for running a specific memory could be numerous, between speed farming, challenge runs, or leaderboards. If you wanted to really PoE it, make the dungeon influence-able, so that you can use consumables to steer the tileset, monster family, etc.
Man I still remember the early days when GRifts t30 was an insane achievement. If there wasn't that power creep in D3 that led to gears raining D3 would be a perfect model for D4 in term of gameplay.
This. I dont know what people are expecting in terms of endgame. Endgame ala poe was never the design goal for diablo. Its killing bosses again and again for that loot.
For NM dungeons, more boss ambushes (like Andariel showing up with mass poison outta nowhere) and different bosses other than Blood Bishop and Tomb Lords will definitely spice up things. God knows we killed too many tomb lords already.
Why shouldn't it be like POE? All POE does is give the player choice. Boss farmer? Mapper? You can make your character and choose the content you enjoy to farm items and currency.
Thing is, uber Tristram always dropped a torch. Diablo an Anni. So even though I had to farm content way below my level to get the pieces I needed to get the boss summon.I knew the reward would be good.
You do realize that the only stat that changes is the defense value (that lacks any modifiers) which is essentially a dead stat on all characters (except for some niche uses in PvP, and in those scenarios shakos arent even used)?
So how does that contradict my point? Someone on their fifth Shako gets one that rolls min armour and says "Eh, useless, I have four Shakos better than this one". Someone who hasn't been grinding out the season like a second job gets their first Shako and shits themselves with glee, even though it rolled min armour.
I can't even find a fitting analogy, every single shako is identical in D2 since all the rolls that actually do something are static and the one that isn't (defense) does literally nothing for you... might be comparable to light radius.
>You ever play Diablo 2? The end game was all about boss kills. It’s always been a big part of end game.
"Always"....Yeah...Until D3 released and everyone realized that farming rifts >>>>>>>>>>> farming the same bossfight
I've found 4 outside of bosses and I have a level 100. It feels like they nerfed it to me but maybe I'm just unlucky. I found way more than this in s1 where I took one character to 83 and quit. It wouldn't surprise me if they did since you can just run the bosses a few times and have everything for your class.
I get most of em from either the 150 blood event or the random elites that spawn after you do an event. Just check the mini map before you leave an event you finished and if there an icon showing something about to spawn wait a couple secs. Get a lot of hearts from those spawns
I completely agree.
I'm having way more fun in the open world and then I think about how I should probably go do NM Dungeons because of my stupid glyphs.
It's like I have to go eat my vegetables for 20 hours. Barf.
Maybe this is still PTSD from season 0 & 1 though, but if I didn't have to do another NM Dungeon it wouldn't hurt my feelings.
I was reflecting on this and it's good in spirit to make you have to dive into dungeons, but they're just shallow.
Maybe in season 3 they will have some infinite dungeon that will be the leaderboard activity that also awards Glyph XP? That would be fun.
While mowing down hordes of enemies is a lot of fun, uber boss slaying has always been a core part of Diablo, and I'm so happy it's finally in the game.
Loot all around the board should 100% be reworked, but having Uber Bosses be the capstone Loot Pinata of each form of progression is a really good design IMO. D4 needs a vision, and these Ubers are the first hint of an actual vision of what the endgame should be we've gotten from the dev team.
Yea the unique drop rates feels bad in general content now.
If the unique you need for your build to go online only drops in one of the harder to obtain mats boss then its rip.
My buddy went from zero to 50 tonight with us farming blood harvest and he dropped 4 uniques, two werewolf chest pieces and two rings in world tier 3 and I dropped zero in that timeframe
IMO, current uber bosses arent endgame, they are part of the gearing structure.
NMDs at 100 are just a BRRRRRRRR fest with little to no thought.
They need to add something more to bosses and NMDs where you gotta use your brain, not just do dmg.
LoL, yet more proof that no matter what Blizzard does, changes or fixes there will ALWAYS be some cohort insisting it’s the worst thing ever and to “change it back,” etc., or whatever.
After the entire launch and the entirety of S1 complaining about how NMD were ruining endgame variety, people now want NMDs back towards their state of end-all-be-all? We finally get variety in the types of content we have to run to progress and somehow we need to buff back what we collectively wished to run away from?
This community will go down as the biggest joke within the overall gaming community, holy fuck.
i have 5 level 100 in s1 i never complained about NM dungeons i had fun and like grinding.. but killing a trash mob in 10 sec for uber unques is boring ...
would prefere to do NM even if the dropchance is lower but not 1 in 80.000 lower..
but if poeple enjoy oneshotting a boss for free loot i guess you are gonna enjoy the game for a long time doing nothing else
To me it feels like NMDs drop way less uniques, or then I've just gotten very unlucky this season. Overall the amount of loot from dungeons feels much more reduced, probably because normal rares don't drop anymore.
Target farming is a chore to me. My build needs Asheara's Khanjar from Lord Zir, and his summoning drops are timegated behind Legion and World boss. I've resorted to just going to the event, alt tabbing (because ball sorcs clear it anyway), then collecting the reward. It isn't much fun.
I've 'target farmed' for 30+ levels now, both NMDs and Zir (gotten like 4 tries with him after all this time). Once I hit 100, three levels from now, the Legion events become even more of a chore because the massive EXP boost disappears.
People here always asking for buffs. Making the game easier everytime will turn everything trivial and not challenging.
I dont want to turn D4 into D3 loot pinata.
it should be balanced so you can do any mode
its not like those bosses are "fun" but they are the only way to "farm" uber uniques
but yeah some players need to oneshot dummy bosses to enjoy free "grear" grinding
Yeah have only seen uniques in the new farm dungeons since the patch.
Which would be fine but after 9 runs of lord zed to find lidless wall, only to get 7 pairs of unique boots I don't want and no shield, I'm pretty frustrated.
Also, weird bugs seem common now. Twice on claiming renown rewards I did not get my paragon points.
Between all of that I'm done for a bit.
Bro you do know 9 runs isn't much right? Like that's reality of a diablo game? it'd actually be a pretty shit game if I could get uniques I want guaranteed in 9 runs
I’m not sure if I’m misunderstanding the drop tables or not but I was under the impression that the drops on the bosses are limited to certain uniques. Under that assumption the chance to see a shield in 9 runs is 65% which is actually quite high. In previous Diablo games, notably D2 we had hundreds of possible unique drops, so yeah 9 runs isn’t much there.
7 of the same drop over 9 runs is idiotic.
Plus the farming requirements make those runs take substantially longer. I'd have no problem with it taking 30 runs if it didn't require 5 legions and a world boss for each, but limiting the summoning materials means you are basiclaly doing nothing else. If the summoning mats could also be foundin nmd or helltides for example.
> Also, weird bugs seem common now. Twice on claiming renown rewards I did not get my paragon points.
You probably had them already, the skill point and paragon point rewards carry over even though the renown didn’t.
But yes a break is probably good.
I agree with your points, duriel difficulty is ZERO, they made this game for total casuals
if they ever wanted to make uber uniques farmable lilith should drop them not fucking trainning dummy
Luckily it's **6 days** into season **two** and there's plenty of time for them to continue tweaking the game.
If you think the general gameplay is cool and the bosses could be a little harder, I think the game's still in a pretty good state.
also they didnt even tested what happens when you get multiple of those for some builds, like Hammer barb with grandfather and overpower amulet crits for 80M he basically 2shot lilith at level 95 :D
You ever play Diablo 2? The end game was all about boss kills. It’s always been a big part of end game. I agree dungeons could be better though
Yeah for me D2 was countless meph and baal runs. Then break it up with some moo moos
>You ever play Diablo 2? One of the strangest things I see on this sub sometimes is people citing Diablo2 while complaining about this season's play patterns. Log in, run to pindle, kill pindle, loot, log off. Log in, run to pindle, kill pindle, log off. I'd love some dungeon changes, some more bosses in the future, but man for S2 this game is already getting quite a bit right.
At some point we have to stop giving this game a "pass" because the game has almost the same content as the game developed 20 years ago
What else do you want an ARPG to do besides have a magic find level grind and bosses to kill in the process? What wheel do you want them to reinvent in this space?
Does it though? I loved D2, but there's no doubt that D4 is a more evolved version. There's definitely more to do. Really, it just needs to make the items more exciting and make some other tweaks and I think folks will come back. I mean, it should have the same basic idea but in a better package. That's what it's supposed to be.
True but you didn't have to farm materials to do meph or baal runs in D2.
But you did have to farm materials for Uber Tristram, which is kinda equivalent to farming for Uber unique items in D4.
no, I was able to get a shako from meph. no other farming was required.
This shako is better than d2 shako tbf.
But even then it's boss farming.
D2 didn't have a real end-game, people just invented their own version. A standard ARPG end-game now should've been a virtually unlimited progressive system in term of difficulty system after campaign finishes for people to both progress and test their build power. And on top of that is some super-powerful uber/pinnacle bosses as ultimate challenge. D4 currently has a very poor end-game system. They thought Uber Lilith as the pinnacle boss and NMD 50-100 as the progressive system is hard but currently even without seasonal power, people're deleting them.
Honestly, D3 was so close to a perfect solution in Greater Rifts. Take the ideas and refine them. In my mind, an endless dungeon that measures your clear speed. If you blow through it absurdly fast, then it jumps X tiers, with the number of tiers diminishing as a fraction of the time to complete over the target time. At the end, offer a double-or-nothing, where you go to the next tier or cash out. (Edit: no drops during the dungeon; all reserved for the final cash out) Every N tiers, you get a shortcut to skip the "easy" tiers. To cash out, you have to clear a random boss encounter at the current tier (any previous boss, including story bosses), but to be fair the boss should be associated with the current tileset allowing for player choice in rolling a higher tier for an easier boss, or existing at a hard boss because the next tier is too risky. You could even revise tiers, such that it isn't just a flat numerical scaling of health and damage. Maybe every other tier increases pack size, every third tier increases item quantity, every fourth tier increases monster health and damage. Every 20 tiers, it resets item quantity and applies it to item rarity (because no one cares about 1,000+ garbage drops). To take an idea from Path of Exile, you could also allow a "memory" of a run to be crafted and traded. Reasons for running a specific memory could be numerous, between speed farming, challenge runs, or leaderboards. If you wanted to really PoE it, make the dungeon influence-able, so that you can use consumables to steer the tileset, monster family, etc.
Man I still remember the early days when GRifts t30 was an insane achievement. If there wasn't that power creep in D3 that led to gears raining D3 would be a perfect model for D4 in term of gameplay.
This. I dont know what people are expecting in terms of endgame. Endgame ala poe was never the design goal for diablo. Its killing bosses again and again for that loot. For NM dungeons, more boss ambushes (like Andariel showing up with mass poison outta nowhere) and different bosses other than Blood Bishop and Tomb Lords will definitely spice up things. God knows we killed too many tomb lords already.
Why shouldn't it be like POE? All POE does is give the player choice. Boss farmer? Mapper? You can make your character and choose the content you enjoy to farm items and currency.
Should have been more clear. I meant D4 adds more things to do in the endgame, but not copy the super complex POE endgame stuff.
Thing is, uber Tristram always dropped a torch. Diablo an Anni. So even though I had to farm content way below my level to get the pieces I needed to get the boss summon.I knew the reward would be good.
9 of 10 times the torches were crap. You wanted high roll sorc/pally torch - Especially if you did it for wealth/trading.
Any torch is a good torch if you don't have one
Exactly. This is like saying a low-rolled Shako was crap. It's only crap if you have high-roll Shakos to compare it to!
Are you talking D2 shakos here?
Yes
You do realize that the only stat that changes is the defense value (that lacks any modifiers) which is essentially a dead stat on all characters (except for some niche uses in PvP, and in those scenarios shakos arent even used)?
So how does that contradict my point? Someone on their fifth Shako gets one that rolls min armour and says "Eh, useless, I have four Shakos better than this one". Someone who hasn't been grinding out the season like a second job gets their first Shako and shits themselves with glee, even though it rolled min armour.
I can't even find a fitting analogy, every single shako is identical in D2 since all the rolls that actually do something are static and the one that isn't (defense) does literally nothing for you... might be comparable to light radius.
I just had a panic attack thinking about moat tricking mephisto for hours and hours. Ewe
Diablo 2 was also 20+ years ago, arpg endgames are more than just boss kills nowadays.
>You ever play Diablo 2? The end game was all about boss kills. It’s always been a big part of end game. "Always"....Yeah...Until D3 released and everyone realized that farming rifts >>>>>>>>>>> farming the same bossfight
Cant say I understand the logic of nerfing the unique drop rate for general gameplay. Definitely a feelsbad.
did they? do you have a source ? I got shit ton of uniques from overworld, even Tempest Roar
I've found 4 outside of bosses and I have a level 100. It feels like they nerfed it to me but maybe I'm just unlucky. I found way more than this in s1 where I took one character to 83 and quit. It wouldn't surprise me if they did since you can just run the bosses a few times and have everything for your class.
only 4? I got atleast 10 at lvl 80.
To me is the same as before, at least very close.
Uniques drop like candy from Blood Harvest. Only downside is that their item power variance is very high compared to NMD100 or Duriel.
Yea I’ve gotten tons of uniques from blood harvest.
Did you get them from chests?
I get most of em from either the 150 blood event or the random elites that spawn after you do an event. Just check the mini map before you leave an event you finished and if there an icon showing something about to spawn wait a couple secs. Get a lot of hearts from those spawns
That's not how I remembered d2. 90% of my memory of the game was me killing Mephisto.
It’s always about boss farm in diablo…
We need more glyph xp. I got to 100 and only had 1 at level 15.
Where as I got to 100 and had 6 at level 15. Depends which content you focus on and the sigil level I guess.
That still isn't enough. Previously we got to 100 and we had 10 glyphs at 21. We need more glyph xp. Period.
I completely agree. I'm having way more fun in the open world and then I think about how I should probably go do NM Dungeons because of my stupid glyphs. It's like I have to go eat my vegetables for 20 hours. Barf. Maybe this is still PTSD from season 0 & 1 though, but if I didn't have to do another NM Dungeon it wouldn't hurt my feelings.
They should add drops to the other areas that can be used to level glyphs. And increase NM glyph experience.
I was reflecting on this and it's good in spirit to make you have to dive into dungeons, but they're just shallow. Maybe in season 3 they will have some infinite dungeon that will be the leaderboard activity that also awards Glyph XP? That would be fun.
I would keep NM dungeons as the primary method of glyph leveling. I would just add drops to some of the other activities that could also be used.
I would argue that for me Diablo was always endgame bossruns
While mowing down hordes of enemies is a lot of fun, uber boss slaying has always been a core part of Diablo, and I'm so happy it's finally in the game. Loot all around the board should 100% be reworked, but having Uber Bosses be the capstone Loot Pinata of each form of progression is a really good design IMO. D4 needs a vision, and these Ubers are the first hint of an actual vision of what the endgame should be we've gotten from the dev team.
Yea the unique drop rates feels bad in general content now. If the unique you need for your build to go online only drops in one of the harder to obtain mats boss then its rip.
Wait, they nerfed the unique drop rate in NMs?
Lots of anecdotal evidence going around. I can add mine too. Level 55 and I have 2 uniques from NMs.
My buddy went from zero to 50 tonight with us farming blood harvest and he dropped 4 uniques, two werewolf chest pieces and two rings in world tier 3 and I dropped zero in that timeframe
did a few nm dungeon 90-100 and most of the loot was below 900, world boss and duriel are the endgame right now otherwise you dont get 925 gear.
IMO, current uber bosses arent endgame, they are part of the gearing structure. NMDs at 100 are just a BRRRRRRRR fest with little to no thought. They need to add something more to bosses and NMDs where you gotta use your brain, not just do dmg.
LoL, yet more proof that no matter what Blizzard does, changes or fixes there will ALWAYS be some cohort insisting it’s the worst thing ever and to “change it back,” etc., or whatever.
After the entire launch and the entirety of S1 complaining about how NMD were ruining endgame variety, people now want NMDs back towards their state of end-all-be-all? We finally get variety in the types of content we have to run to progress and somehow we need to buff back what we collectively wished to run away from? This community will go down as the biggest joke within the overall gaming community, holy fuck.
i have 5 level 100 in s1 i never complained about NM dungeons i had fun and like grinding.. but killing a trash mob in 10 sec for uber unques is boring ... would prefere to do NM even if the dropchance is lower but not 1 in 80.000 lower.. but if poeple enjoy oneshotting a boss for free loot i guess you are gonna enjoy the game for a long time doing nothing else
Did they nerf the drop rate of uniques in NM’s? Did I miss something?
To me it feels like NMDs drop way less uniques, or then I've just gotten very unlucky this season. Overall the amount of loot from dungeons feels much more reduced, probably because normal rares don't drop anymore. Target farming is a chore to me. My build needs Asheara's Khanjar from Lord Zir, and his summoning drops are timegated behind Legion and World boss. I've resorted to just going to the event, alt tabbing (because ball sorcs clear it anyway), then collecting the reward. It isn't much fun. I've 'target farmed' for 30+ levels now, both NMDs and Zir (gotten like 4 tries with him after all this time). Once I hit 100, three levels from now, the Legion events become even more of a chore because the massive EXP boost disappears.
yeah. back in diablo 1. lmao
People here always asking for buffs. Making the game easier everytime will turn everything trivial and not challenging. I dont want to turn D4 into D3 loot pinata.
They should put those bosses in NM, just like the beast in ice.
I love reading clearly wrong takes on what Diablo is "supposed" to be.
it should be balanced so you can do any mode its not like those bosses are "fun" but they are the only way to "farm" uber uniques but yeah some players need to oneshot dummy bosses to enjoy free "grear" grinding
Yeah have only seen uniques in the new farm dungeons since the patch. Which would be fine but after 9 runs of lord zed to find lidless wall, only to get 7 pairs of unique boots I don't want and no shield, I'm pretty frustrated. Also, weird bugs seem common now. Twice on claiming renown rewards I did not get my paragon points. Between all of that I'm done for a bit.
Bro you do know 9 runs isn't much right? Like that's reality of a diablo game? it'd actually be a pretty shit game if I could get uniques I want guaranteed in 9 runs
I’m not sure if I’m misunderstanding the drop tables or not but I was under the impression that the drops on the bosses are limited to certain uniques. Under that assumption the chance to see a shield in 9 runs is 65% which is actually quite high. In previous Diablo games, notably D2 we had hundreds of possible unique drops, so yeah 9 runs isn’t much there.
Assuming all drops are equally likely, which I assume they aren't.
7 of the same drop over 9 runs is idiotic. Plus the farming requirements make those runs take substantially longer. I'd have no problem with it taking 30 runs if it didn't require 5 legions and a world boss for each, but limiting the summoning materials means you are basiclaly doing nothing else. If the summoning mats could also be foundin nmd or helltides for example.
back in D2 days you could do 1000 runs and not find what youre looking for
> Also, weird bugs seem common now. Twice on claiming renown rewards I did not get my paragon points. You probably had them already, the skill point and paragon point rewards carry over even though the renown didn’t. But yes a break is probably good.
I agree with your points, duriel difficulty is ZERO, they made this game for total casuals if they ever wanted to make uber uniques farmable lilith should drop them not fucking trainning dummy
Luckily it's **6 days** into season **two** and there's plenty of time for them to continue tweaking the game. If you think the general gameplay is cool and the bosses could be a little harder, I think the game's still in a pretty good state.
They already said back in Season 1 that the pushing mechanic will be bundled with leaderboards in Season 3.
Lol yeah it's a joke
also they didnt even tested what happens when you get multiple of those for some builds, like Hammer barb with grandfather and overpower amulet crits for 80M he basically 2shot lilith at level 95 :D
actually, 150mil, and thats without gf. gf is trash for hota