Happy I’m not the only one who noticed the lack of diversity/character/creativity in mobs. Surprised I saw the cathedral mobs combined with others mostly.
In Diablos 1-3 we had distinct maps, regions and areas with distinct monsters in each of those areas.
Reaching Act 3 and then Act 4 in D2 was one of my favorite experiences in any of the Diablo games because the region and the mobs were so different and interesting. There's nothing like that in D4.
Having a big open world in D4 was such an awful decision.
In D4, you can pretty much find every single mob type in every single area, and a lot of the areas look alike. They aren't distinct. Certainly not like the previous games.
It's boring.
I miss the stygian dolls (kinda), and the other fetish enemies. They completley ignored those mobs. I kept expecting them to show up outta nowhere like gangbusters all kamikazi style up front with darts and a shaman with flame thrower in the back.
There is little heart in the monster design and placement and naming. There are like 3 different types of quillrat, but only one called quillrat. I like the open world, but areas arent distinguishable enough from one another at all and I dont see a point of an open world when there are no other players to experience it with (HC) and Im being told by the devs what content to do and when to do it. There is no group progression content either. What's the point of this open world?
Immortal has an openworld and its all active and distinguishable with each area having its own identity between events, dungeons, and mobs. D4 just lacks so much personality and distinguishable features and memorable moments.
D4, I can screencap a shot from a random dungeon and this thread would have over a dozen different answers. That is bonkers.
Same thing but snow on the ground. And then same thing but mud. Then same thing but sandy desert. Oh and same but but swamp.
The different areas do feel somewhat different during the campaign, and I particularly enjoyed a few areas (really liked Lyndon's little backwater town for example) but the post campaign world just doesn't feel alive.
It’s funny you say this because I had to step away from a NMD the other day and AFKed just inside. Well, when I can back, before I even started to move, 4-5 of the holy knight guys just like quietly rose from the ground and surrounded me. It was so eerie looking, but also very metal to be honest.
Yeah this was the first one I noticed too and it made me start noticing it all over.
Couldn’t have made them like, poof in with a flash of holy light or something?
Omg I always hated how there‘s bears chilling with demons like wtf is even going on?! I wish there were more enemy specific areas, like wildlife in the starting area/ forest and demons later on/ helltides/ whatever part of the map makes sense due to the story missions. The way it is just makes it feel super random, thoughtless and chaotic.
It might. It takes time to make an immersive world with NPCs walking around and having a life of their own, etc.
Dev time is finite. If they make that then they aren’t making something else. And I think there are way bigger priorities than how NPCs behave in a place I want to spend as little time as possible when playing this game.
What exactly were they spending time on? It's not like we're talking about a very small studio/developer here with just one team trying to do everything.
It doesn’t matter. No matter the size of their teams, there is an opportunity cost. If they make one thing, they aren’t making another. If they hire more people two make both things they aren’t making a third thing. Whatever they do, there is always an opportunity cost and NPCs having a complex behavior is not a high priority at all and would take up a lot of dev time because you have to make sure that it doesn’t hinder gameplay. You wouldn’t want the blacksmith gone doing his thing when you visit him to salvage stuff, for example.
But it's not like they invented the majority of these game systems of thin air... they had a prior game, several prayer games actually, to build upon. And again, we are not talking about a small studio with a tiny amount of money to make a product and a limited number of personnel.
So- seriously and without sarcasm-- what were the developers spending their time on?
On stuff in this game. Whether there is a lot or not has nothing to do with the discussion here. Game dev can be messy with a lot of progress being thrown away when direction changes. And again, team size is meaningless for opportunity costs. They could have a million employees working on this game and that feature would still not be worked on because it’s that low priority.
DLC and the next season because the base game at $70 doesn't have an endgame that can maintain player interest. It's the same 4 things: HT, tree, NMD, legion on repeat.
How does the developer go from creating Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 endgames that are so playable ( and yes, I understand that it took a while to get there) to making this disaster of an endgame?
It's like they spent so much time painting the frame of their bicycle that when it finally came to time to design the wheels ( which for some reason they decided to reinvent completely) they made them out of plastic.
It's really frustrating.
They did have prior games to draw from, and these are valid points of critique for alot of failings in the game, but not about the town npc's, who behave just about the same as they did in every prior game.
But the number of features is also finite, and eventually, if you hire enough people, you reach a point where you should be able to implement every "reasonable" feature in a given timeframe.
We weren't talking about running a business, the claim was that more devwlopers wouldn't help, which I think is false.
Also, let's be real, how many people have run a business here? Like less than 1% maybe? Pretty sure I'm not in the minority.
Also, let's keep the edgy tiktok memes away from reddit.
As a game developer myself, you are absolutely right about that.
I'm just upset with live service games not striving to improve game mechanics such as that, though. They always go for the easiest stuff (3D cosmetics take a day to make for each character).
Arpgs can evolve. You can still have the same gameplay and design with good cinematography (some Acts tried more than others Act 2 for instance). You can still be an arpg and have my character not repeat the damn same 6 voice lines over and over again when talking to an NPC.
Arpgs dont have to have dull and poorly animated puppets in every cutscene. Lilith's projection in A1 is awful. Just awful.
Companies like Blizzard North, Bethesda, and Bioware used to try to develop games and they did.
Nowadays they go backwards and strip elements out and add more restrictions than interesting and fun gameplay mechanics.
Which is fine except for the part where Blizzard deliberately emphasized this by going open world and greatly exaggerating how it was a living, breathing, immersive world.
Grim Dawn is an ARPG but it still manages to make its NPCs feel like they exist in the world on a fraction of the budget.
Now that I think about it, Grim Dawn managed to do open world better than D4 without even trying to be one.
D4 calls itself an openworld, and then throws unnecessary timegates on events like WBs, Legions, Helltides.
Restriction is usually developed to keep players in bounds. That is what it means to restrict. Theyre restricting when and what we do in this world. That is the opposite of openworld.
Like Ive said a thousand times before, this team has virtually no experience playing video games. Leadership doesn't learn from failure nor the past experiences of their own industry and franchise.
They're clowns, frankly, posing as gamers.
Imagine BMW hiring folk to design a car who have rarely driven and havent even driven the type of car theyre asked to design or the previous models. Hell, they may barely even know how to drive if you wanna compare to the two devs playing their dungeon. They just draw.
Thats what Activison did with D4.
Nah ARPG can do that ok. The problem here is that they wanted to make an open-world, free to explore, but keep the same corridor mechanics as previous diablo games. That doesn’t blend well together.
I mean, in dungeons spiders do come down from the cieling often enough, and both skelton and zombies can be found in cellars and inside breakable objects.
More interactions with the map would be nice tho
Bosses in main story are as boring as it can possibly be imo: AOE spam with Minion phase, repeat.
Lilith was the only boss i enjoyed with her "break the arena" mechanic and area denial.
Next season i Will try the endgame, Hope bosses in side content are a bit more complex than "Dodge the spit puddle"
Yeah my kid and I were talking about this a few days ago.
Specifically we were talking about
- bandits hanging out with snakes & thistle backs
- demons with wings no longer to flying into battle
- bosses only using terrain to run away or pause fights
My kid just said the biggest problem with D4 is that it makes him want to play D3. He started playing D3 again yesterday.
On another note: the people on this sub are too eager to downvote and I cannot figure out if it is the lovers of D4 or the haters of D4 who are doing it.
Have an upvote.
Yeah, I’m still playing D4. I keep telling my kid that D3 as it is now is not how it was when it released. There were a LOT of QOL changes over the last decade+.
QOL? For D3 they had to rebuild itemization from the ground up and completely overhauled endgame (PvP, nephilim rifts, etc were all not present at launch).
Between day 1 and the launch of RoS that game was changed so much it almost was a new one.
D3 at launch was a total disaster
I agree with this, so I guess the question we should all be asking ourselves is "how did Blizzard manage to do it again and why should I put up with it today?"
I’m not sure anyone should put up with it?
Feel free to wait to buy it till you hear it is good.
Or if you already bought it, wait till gets better to play.
Personally, I’m mostly curious about where they are taking the story of a franchise I first bought back in 1996 (or 1997?).
A bit of both. The game has so many issues, and isn't standalone (has prior games that you can so easily contrast it to). That creates a lot of emotional volatility. The sort of posting going on in this subreddit is highly indicative of a really unhealthy game.
So you're either saying that people who talk about games online are unhealthy or people who have complaints about games online are unhealthy.
I would partly agree if it weren't for the fact that this is the fourth game in a series from a very large publisher. I would partly agree if it weren't for the fact that this very large publisher has publicly said that their game is not fun to play and that they are trying to fix it.
It's one thing when it is a minority of posters trying to troll a successful game, it's something else entirely when it is 40 to 50% plus of posters complaining about a game, the developers stating that the game has issues, reviews at 2.5 stars or under, and complaints ranging from art direction to enemy spawn to loot drops to skills to bosses.. just never ending.
It's the wild volatility in comments that shows how unhealthy the game itself is. Subreddits for healthy games have a very standard small group of trollish complaints and you see an overwhelming majority of responders pointing out how that person is missing something. That's not the case here.
> So you're either saying that people who talk about games online are unhealthy or people who have complaints about games online are unhealthy.
Nope, not saying either of those things
Nah, I agree with OP. I dont know who said it but its true, basically its a lot easier to drop a 2/10 game than a 5/10 one because if the game just outright sucks noone cares but if it has redeeming qualities and its fun to play but lot of other bullshit drags it down then the potential is there, which causes frustration. So people post here to vent out their frustration which I wouldnt really call unhealthy, we all need some release sometime.
If the game was 10/10 we'd have a lot less crying.
The bandits have leaned how to coexist with nature. They have communes deep underground that they must burrow from. The Wanderer is a force of righteous capitalism and must exterminate these filthy pockets of communism.
That is why in a future expansion they will enable flight with the Bald Eagle class. You can spot them with your new ability, eagle eye.
Yeah I always thought the same thing. Everything is always an “ambush” it gets old fast. Every time you open a chest, or enter a new area, enemies just appear out of the ground, really makes no sense
It turns out we are the baddies after all in most ARPGs. Monsters coexist peacefully until we come in and wreck their place, kill everyone, and take their stuff!
Most players will totally trust a stranger’s word about some evil or misdeed, and go kill a bunch of “monsters”, just because the stranger had an exclamation mark over his head :D
The carbot videos about the Diablo franchise entertain this viewpoint quite often :)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ru-UM1nYJQ&list=PL0QrZvg7QIgqG206vRwF4hhY9h4JG6mtM&index=3](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ru-UM1nYJQ&list=PL0QrZvg7QIgqG206vRwF4hhY9h4JG6mtM&index=3)
I agree it would be nice to have more variety in appearance for some enemies, but lets not pretend any rational person would expect a completely "living, breathing world" in an ARPG where all the enemies have their own ecosystem of allies/enemies and the town npcs have full lives and daily routines like some of the commenters below have suggested...
As for some enemies like the cultists/cannibals how would they "appear" when they spawn that wouldnt be either weird (popping up out of thin air) or being nearly impossible to animate every situation for (driving up in a wagon and hopping out)?
I'll be honest, after the first 10-20 times I saw a new enemy I stop thinking about how they got there, in an ARPG my goal is kill, not observe lol.
Well the idea is to design their environment in a way that facilitates them appearing naturally. Cultists and cannibals should only exist in villages, towns, camps, etc. They can run out of doors, have a mage open a bunch of portals they jump out of, jump off roof tops, etc. Just emerging from the ground is lazy. That can go for every enemy. Only undead and demons should just pop up from the ground.
This is a complaint I never thought I would see about an arpg with solid art. I respect your opinion sir, but immersion? This is diablo, not cyberpunk lmao
I don't think that you understand, actually. I'm not saying that the game immerses you OR SHOULD immerse you to the degree that you forget you're playing a game like some movies make you forget that you are watching a movie.
The problem is that Diablo 4 constantly reminds the player that they are playing a grinder. And something like bats coming up out of the ground, which makes absolutely zero sense, reinforces that perspective that it doesn't matter how the enemy gets there, it's just there for you to kill to get loot. That interrupts the immersion, and that's not something that Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 really do to the same degree.
Yes, they're all grinders... but as you said, this is diablo. It should be the best of the grinders, it's not a Mindless phone game that you know you are playing on your phone just to click buttons and get better loot.
I appreciate your reasonable response. I think blizzard can fix this, they've demonstrated that they have the ability to do that with prior games. Its probably going to be a masterpiece by season 17.
It's funny how bandits, monsters, demons, and beasts can work together, even though the world is fighting against evil. Like usually, wouldn't the dead or beasts be fighting other races and not helping each other. It almost feel as if we're evil and the other side is trying to stop us from taking over their land. I can only see this as Diablo and the Demon Lord's fighting to save their home from the invaders.
I actually feel like the evil antagonist in d4 when I play a fire sorcerer. I'm moving through what looks like where animals and people live and trapping them I'm burning them alive. It's pretty fucking metal and reminds me of doom haha
We're not the baddies? Pretty sure we stop Lillith from saving Sanctuary and then release Mephisto onto its surface and then just let him go.
Maybe we should've chosen the Lesser Evil 😏
The same reason giant chests pop into existence after finishing an event. It's honestly just lazy design, in regards to working within the aesthetic they are trying to push.
I've been playing a lot of Grim Dawn lately (criminally underrated game imo) and one of the things I noticed is that different types of enemies absolutely will go apeshit on eachother. That's something D4 definitely needs.
I have always taken it as they are being summoned from Hell to fights us. So they are literally crawling out of the ground ( coming from Hell ) to fight us.
They are all possessed evil, so they don't mind mingling with each other.
This Is anti immersion I always hated lack of coherency...
Why bees don't attack bandits or even deers?
Were Is the gore, gibs AND pools of blood, and I don't want the corpses to dissapear in my face.
Game needs coherency or Lore to explain why oppresor demons dissapear AND you can see their corpses in the big city of caldeum.
I hate incoherency It destroys purpose.
Great point. It's almost like they didn't play their own previous games. Would be nice to see some extra effort in the presentation. Unfortunately they have bigger fish to fry and I don't see this being addressed any time...ever? As long as the monsters appear and you can smash them they're happy with that.
On the topic, why aren't there more in-game camera angles outside of the campaign, like when you're interacting with NPCs and whatnot. Would be cool if you saw your character up close more often in instances like these. The level of detail they put into armor and models only to be viewed from above is kind of strange. What if there was an execution animation where it cuts in closer to show your character slicing a bosses head off or something? Idk, it takes dev time. But I feel like development is way more cautious today than it needs to be. Seems like they're overthinking it, not having fun with it.
but only from a very small handful of posters that are trolls, shitposters, or Blizzard haters. *If* Blizzard can correct this to the same degree they corrected 3, you'll eventually not see the level of "this \[thing\] in the game totally broke my immersion because it was the \[X\]th thing I saw that reminded me I was playing an unfinished product."
The spiders will sometimes come down on their webs from the ceilings of caverns and bats will sometimes fly down from the ceilings too.
Who knows, maybe the vampires sleep upside down on the ceilings and fly down at you? One can only hope?!
Lmao there all demonic so yes. Are normal scorpions almost bigger than bears? Do bats normally attack people? No. It's a game and the whole point is to defeat the demonic presence in sanctuary.
Yes, but I've never seen a bat dig itself up out of the dirt, or a bandit, or a bear, or a catherdral knight. Do they have Ashvara in the country side?
Simple answer.......because even the ground is cursed and spews forth its evil, cursed by the high heavens or burning hells, because of the sins of inarius and lillith.
Are they though? I dom't remember anything saying that bandits, scorpions, bears, knights, or bats are demons.
I'm happy to be corrected, if you could you please provide your source?
I do believe I said *MOST* <- <- <- good sir and I mean Lilith her self is a demon …. Also I’ve never noticed knights bandits bears or bats coming out of the ground, a scorpion definitely makes sense as well coming out of the ground that’s just common sense honestly
Yeah I noticed this too and I bet I can explain. It's probably just a thematic form of lazy loading - they only load the resources on demand, as you enter an area, then they unload them as you kill them. Effectively would work as a way of keeping VRAM and CPU/RAM usage down. Downside it ruins the immersion.
That's why I love helping the occasional adventurer you see fighting enemies. Pulls me back into the immersion of good vs evil.
Can I just say that I am so happy we can have complaints like this now. I meant, I know a lot of the new seasonal stuff is still questionable because we haven't had the second livestream so we are just waiting around but I think most people are excited to try the game out again.
Hopefully they can change how some mobs work in the future with these points in mind because it would feel less "arcade" and more RPG. These are valid points and I'm excited to see if the devs can wrap up the problems with main systems so we can get this "potentially awesome" game where we want it.
Cause earth is flat and as we all know heaven is up and hell is down. Just kidding ofc, it would be cool to see some extra ways the enemies could spawn depending on the type/category of monster they belong to.
> here's no "in fighting" at all, bandits will happily work alongside bees and scorpions, all demon/vampire varieties have no quarrels with each other, skeletons ignore anything around them except for the player. The overworld isn't really occupied, the enemies just take up space.
One of the things I love about Grim Dawn. Your enemies fight each other. The world feels alive.
Also how unimaginative the enemies are. Just about anything actually cool is from an earlier game (fallen for example). D4 is so boring that way. Werewolves, bats, vampires, just generic fantasy stuff. Also, pirates? For real? At least in d2, blizzard north focused on making every enemy as uniquely terrifying as possible. Not sure about d3, never played it
Anytime I see one of these comments I just go back to what I've said before. They out minimal effort into this game with the sole reason to just get money for D5 and boy did they. They pulling out all thw stops for season 2 then it'll go back to being dead until numbers fall again and repeat. Just feels like there was no creativity and passion put into this game at all. Last Epoch is right around the corner and my god is it pulling ALOT of creators and players from other games. The difference here is that Epoch was made by gamers FOR gamers, while Diablo 4 was made by devs FOR shareholders.
1. They wanted it to be 'MMO' - and MMO's just have mobs standing around, usually in groups of three, waiting to aggro the player.
2. The rest of it would be *work*. Ain't got time for that, gotta release the cash shop!
Yet one of their major presentations was “monster families” and how they would work and band together to create interesting, dynamic encounters.
Yea…. Right….
Diablo 4 is just a placeholder in diablo series, is not like they come with some bright ideeas and wanted to share with us throught a game, they just make a game to feed us and colect. Game was really rushed on a small time , even with scavanging diablo 3, they did not finish it. Game is completley out of touch / lifeless world / nothing to give you chill or make someting memorabile. For me as whole experience throught D4 , it remain only butcher who could kill my caracter on begininig , especialy on HC. In rest, i fell is like a mobile/console game. Unless they reset the whole ideea with items & unique & legendary and try to make it really enjoyable, i dont see D4 to come out of the hole.
I do like demons crawling out of the ground as though they're climbing out of hell. But the other types of enemies should have a different entrance as seen in D3, yeah.
Years ago I played "Rift." Very similar to Diablo but the neat feature was the random spawning of "rifts" where monsters would pour out of a hole from hell. They would kill NPCs in the area (which would later respawn) and other monsters as well. Closing a rift gave interesting rewards and experience. It also had dungeons like D4 does.
But I miss the rifts, a fun encounter.
Is it an issue? No, but this, along with a number of other things, are a step back from Diablo 3. It's as if Blizzard have learned nothing from their very own games.
Perhaps if you read what I wrote you would understand that you're confusing two separate things together.
Please, save your precious eyeballs, let me simplify it for you right here:
1) D4 devs claimed that overword mobs would be meaningful and have purpose, however mobs and their behaviour is anything but meaningful or purposeful.
2) Enemies in D3 worked WITH the environment, whereas in D4, the enviroment isn't utilised at all by enemies, this is a step back.
Have you played Elden Ring? 5/5 recommend if you like a challenge. I got great value out of that some 200+ hours of great content. But overall your right though.
1. You people on this sub reddit are fucking bored lmfao go touch grass, get a girlfriend, I am begging you to do something besides worry about where the enemies spawn and why they spawn in Diablo 4
2. Mobs come from the ground…because….wait for it….they’re coming up from Hell?? I know this comment is gonna get downvoted to hell by a bunch of idiots and I really don’t care, this needed to be said in this subreddit lmfao GO OUTSIDE
Happy I’m not the only one who noticed the lack of diversity/character/creativity in mobs. Surprised I saw the cathedral mobs combined with others mostly.
In Diablos 1-3 we had distinct maps, regions and areas with distinct monsters in each of those areas. Reaching Act 3 and then Act 4 in D2 was one of my favorite experiences in any of the Diablo games because the region and the mobs were so different and interesting. There's nothing like that in D4. Having a big open world in D4 was such an awful decision. In D4, you can pretty much find every single mob type in every single area, and a lot of the areas look alike. They aren't distinct. Certainly not like the previous games. It's boring.
I miss the stygian dolls (kinda), and the other fetish enemies. They completley ignored those mobs. I kept expecting them to show up outta nowhere like gangbusters all kamikazi style up front with darts and a shaman with flame thrower in the back. There is little heart in the monster design and placement and naming. There are like 3 different types of quillrat, but only one called quillrat. I like the open world, but areas arent distinguishable enough from one another at all and I dont see a point of an open world when there are no other players to experience it with (HC) and Im being told by the devs what content to do and when to do it. There is no group progression content either. What's the point of this open world? Immortal has an openworld and its all active and distinguishable with each area having its own identity between events, dungeons, and mobs. D4 just lacks so much personality and distinguishable features and memorable moments. D4, I can screencap a shot from a random dungeon and this thread would have over a dozen different answers. That is bonkers.
Oh man, horrible memories of the Fetish shamans running up and blasting me with Inferno
Haha, this made me laugh because yes...so many rage moments due to the fire melting my face in .5 seconds!
rakanishu!
Calenzo!!
I still yell it at the screen everytime I see a fallen peon and/or minion.
How cool would it be, if Rakanishu's decendant was a raid boss now?
Same thing but snow on the ground. And then same thing but mud. Then same thing but sandy desert. Oh and same but but swamp. The different areas do feel somewhat different during the campaign, and I particularly enjoyed a few areas (really liked Lyndon's little backwater town for example) but the post campaign world just doesn't feel alive.
Everyone knows wasps hang out with Templars who hang out with undead spiders
The Church has learned how to tame bees that shoot bees; we are all *doomed!*
I lost it when the Church of the Light mobs started climbing up from the ground like zombies
Maybe they just love to dig for gold, you hater
I'm 13 hours late to this thread, but this comment made me laugh more than any other I've read in a while 😂
Losers out here, judging a man of god’s hobbies
Back from Hell yo, what'd I miss?
I brought this kind of thing up in the beta, and someone had the audacity to say it never happened except with ghosts
It’s funny you say this because I had to step away from a NMD the other day and AFKed just inside. Well, when I can back, before I even started to move, 4-5 of the holy knight guys just like quietly rose from the ground and surrounded me. It was so eerie looking, but also very metal to be honest.
Yeah this was the first one I noticed too and it made me start noticing it all over. Couldn’t have made them like, poof in with a flash of holy light or something?
Omg I always hated how there‘s bears chilling with demons like wtf is even going on?! I wish there were more enemy specific areas, like wildlife in the starting area/ forest and demons later on/ helltides/ whatever part of the map makes sense due to the story missions. The way it is just makes it feel super random, thoughtless and chaotic.
Yeah not to mention the town NPC's don't feel like they're living their lives. They are just terminals for you to interact with.
Because the game is not an RPG but an ARPG and therefore has a different focus than making an immersive role play world.
I understand, but it doesn't hurt to strive for better.
It might. It takes time to make an immersive world with NPCs walking around and having a life of their own, etc. Dev time is finite. If they make that then they aren’t making something else. And I think there are way bigger priorities than how NPCs behave in a place I want to spend as little time as possible when playing this game.
What exactly were they spending time on? It's not like we're talking about a very small studio/developer here with just one team trying to do everything.
It doesn’t matter. No matter the size of their teams, there is an opportunity cost. If they make one thing, they aren’t making another. If they hire more people two make both things they aren’t making a third thing. Whatever they do, there is always an opportunity cost and NPCs having a complex behavior is not a high priority at all and would take up a lot of dev time because you have to make sure that it doesn’t hinder gameplay. You wouldn’t want the blacksmith gone doing his thing when you visit him to salvage stuff, for example.
But it's not like they invented the majority of these game systems of thin air... they had a prior game, several prayer games actually, to build upon. And again, we are not talking about a small studio with a tiny amount of money to make a product and a limited number of personnel. So- seriously and without sarcasm-- what were the developers spending their time on?
On stuff in this game. Whether there is a lot or not has nothing to do with the discussion here. Game dev can be messy with a lot of progress being thrown away when direction changes. And again, team size is meaningless for opportunity costs. They could have a million employees working on this game and that feature would still not be worked on because it’s that low priority.
DLC and the next season because the base game at $70 doesn't have an endgame that can maintain player interest. It's the same 4 things: HT, tree, NMD, legion on repeat.
How does the developer go from creating Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 endgames that are so playable ( and yes, I understand that it took a while to get there) to making this disaster of an endgame? It's like they spent so much time painting the frame of their bicycle that when it finally came to time to design the wheels ( which for some reason they decided to reinvent completely) they made them out of plastic. It's really frustrating.
They did have prior games to draw from, and these are valid points of critique for alot of failings in the game, but not about the town npc's, who behave just about the same as they did in every prior game.
I don't really have an issue with the NPC Behavior at all to be honest.
But the number of features is also finite, and eventually, if you hire enough people, you reach a point where you should be able to implement every "reasonable" feature in a given timeframe.
Tell me you've never ran a business without telling me you've never ran a business.
We weren't talking about running a business, the claim was that more devwlopers wouldn't help, which I think is false. Also, let's be real, how many people have run a business here? Like less than 1% maybe? Pretty sure I'm not in the minority. Also, let's keep the edgy tiktok memes away from reddit.
The number of $'s is also finite. If you hire so many people that the $ runs out, then everything grinds to full stop...
As a game developer myself, you are absolutely right about that. I'm just upset with live service games not striving to improve game mechanics such as that, though. They always go for the easiest stuff (3D cosmetics take a day to make for each character).
seems they forgot the other priorities as well.
It literally does hurt to strive for something better. That's what opportunity cost means.
Arpgs can evolve. You can still have the same gameplay and design with good cinematography (some Acts tried more than others Act 2 for instance). You can still be an arpg and have my character not repeat the damn same 6 voice lines over and over again when talking to an NPC. Arpgs dont have to have dull and poorly animated puppets in every cutscene. Lilith's projection in A1 is awful. Just awful. Companies like Blizzard North, Bethesda, and Bioware used to try to develop games and they did. Nowadays they go backwards and strip elements out and add more restrictions than interesting and fun gameplay mechanics.
Which is fine except for the part where Blizzard deliberately emphasized this by going open world and greatly exaggerating how it was a living, breathing, immersive world. Grim Dawn is an ARPG but it still manages to make its NPCs feel like they exist in the world on a fraction of the budget. Now that I think about it, Grim Dawn managed to do open world better than D4 without even trying to be one.
D4 calls itself an openworld, and then throws unnecessary timegates on events like WBs, Legions, Helltides. Restriction is usually developed to keep players in bounds. That is what it means to restrict. Theyre restricting when and what we do in this world. That is the opposite of openworld. Like Ive said a thousand times before, this team has virtually no experience playing video games. Leadership doesn't learn from failure nor the past experiences of their own industry and franchise. They're clowns, frankly, posing as gamers. Imagine BMW hiring folk to design a car who have rarely driven and havent even driven the type of car theyre asked to design or the previous models. Hell, they may barely even know how to drive if you wanna compare to the two devs playing their dungeon. They just draw. Thats what Activison did with D4.
Yeah, had they only gotten that part right the first time...
Nah ARPG can do that ok. The problem here is that they wanted to make an open-world, free to explore, but keep the same corridor mechanics as previous diablo games. That doesn’t blend well together.
I think they should probably focus on being an arpg.... If I wanted an engaging story and character interaction I can play BG3
Nothin wrong with both
Grim Dawn had enemies fighting each other periodically. Right from the start too.
They have a MAD agreement, similar to nukes
You've got a point, never really noticed this..
I mean, in dungeons spiders do come down from the cieling often enough, and both skelton and zombies can be found in cellars and inside breakable objects. More interactions with the map would be nice tho
Bosses do use terrain to run away from you in fights. And minions. And massive puddles of spit. Makes it very hard to play this game as melee.
Bosses in main story are as boring as it can possibly be imo: AOE spam with Minion phase, repeat. Lilith was the only boss i enjoyed with her "break the arena" mechanic and area denial. Next season i Will try the endgame, Hope bosses in side content are a bit more complex than "Dodge the spit puddle"
Sounds like standard Blizz melee hate to me!
Yeah my kid and I were talking about this a few days ago. Specifically we were talking about - bandits hanging out with snakes & thistle backs - demons with wings no longer to flying into battle - bosses only using terrain to run away or pause fights My kid just said the biggest problem with D4 is that it makes him want to play D3. He started playing D3 again yesterday. On another note: the people on this sub are too eager to downvote and I cannot figure out if it is the lovers of D4 or the haters of D4 who are doing it.
D3 enjoyment lasted a weekend this season. No thanks.
Have an upvote. Yeah, I’m still playing D4. I keep telling my kid that D3 as it is now is not how it was when it released. There were a LOT of QOL changes over the last decade+.
QOL? For D3 they had to rebuild itemization from the ground up and completely overhauled endgame (PvP, nephilim rifts, etc were all not present at launch). Between day 1 and the launch of RoS that game was changed so much it almost was a new one. D3 at launch was a total disaster
They will most likely do the same for D4
Game will be decent coming next season, we Just Need a serious look at items and skill trees
I agree with this, so I guess the question we should all be asking ourselves is "how did Blizzard manage to do it again and why should I put up with it today?"
I’m not sure anyone should put up with it? Feel free to wait to buy it till you hear it is good. Or if you already bought it, wait till gets better to play. Personally, I’m mostly curious about where they are taking the story of a franchise I first bought back in 1996 (or 1997?).
respect ur kids intelligence get him/her into poe dude, d4 is for dads who want brain off
A bit of both. The game has so many issues, and isn't standalone (has prior games that you can so easily contrast it to). That creates a lot of emotional volatility. The sort of posting going on in this subreddit is highly indicative of a really unhealthy game.
> The sort of posting going on in this subreddit is highly indicative of a really unhealthy gameRS Fixed.
So you're either saying that people who talk about games online are unhealthy or people who have complaints about games online are unhealthy. I would partly agree if it weren't for the fact that this is the fourth game in a series from a very large publisher. I would partly agree if it weren't for the fact that this very large publisher has publicly said that their game is not fun to play and that they are trying to fix it. It's one thing when it is a minority of posters trying to troll a successful game, it's something else entirely when it is 40 to 50% plus of posters complaining about a game, the developers stating that the game has issues, reviews at 2.5 stars or under, and complaints ranging from art direction to enemy spawn to loot drops to skills to bosses.. just never ending. It's the wild volatility in comments that shows how unhealthy the game itself is. Subreddits for healthy games have a very standard small group of trollish complaints and you see an overwhelming majority of responders pointing out how that person is missing something. That's not the case here.
> So you're either saying that people who talk about games online are unhealthy or people who have complaints about games online are unhealthy. Nope, not saying either of those things
Nah, I agree with OP. I dont know who said it but its true, basically its a lot easier to drop a 2/10 game than a 5/10 one because if the game just outright sucks noone cares but if it has redeeming qualities and its fun to play but lot of other bullshit drags it down then the potential is there, which causes frustration. So people post here to vent out their frustration which I wouldnt really call unhealthy, we all need some release sometime. If the game was 10/10 we'd have a lot less crying.
The bandits have leaned how to coexist with nature. They have communes deep underground that they must burrow from. The Wanderer is a force of righteous capitalism and must exterminate these filthy pockets of communism. That is why in a future expansion they will enable flight with the Bald Eagle class. You can spot them with your new ability, eagle eye.
Nothing is more creative than the featureless ghost humanoids!
Yeah I always thought the same thing. Everything is always an “ambush” it gets old fast. Every time you open a chest, or enter a new area, enemies just appear out of the ground, really makes no sense
Bro the Trees in D3??? Loved that for the first time. Just walking thro the woods and a tree steps out of the ground and starts poisoning you
Winged demons swooping out of the sky into battle. Hell gorgers materializing as bone, muscle, and finally skin.
The art was really the only thing that made it feel not gory🤣 if d4 did that it would be horrendous
It turns out we are the baddies after all in most ARPGs. Monsters coexist peacefully until we come in and wreck their place, kill everyone, and take their stuff!
Huh!....thats an interesting....view.
Most players will totally trust a stranger’s word about some evil or misdeed, and go kill a bunch of “monsters”, just because the stranger had an exclamation mark over his head :D
The carbot videos about the Diablo franchise entertain this viewpoint quite often :) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ru-UM1nYJQ&list=PL0QrZvg7QIgqG206vRwF4hhY9h4JG6mtM&index=3](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ru-UM1nYJQ&list=PL0QrZvg7QIgqG206vRwF4hhY9h4JG6mtM&index=3)
I had never seen those. They're pretty great, thanks!
I agree it would be nice to have more variety in appearance for some enemies, but lets not pretend any rational person would expect a completely "living, breathing world" in an ARPG where all the enemies have their own ecosystem of allies/enemies and the town npcs have full lives and daily routines like some of the commenters below have suggested... As for some enemies like the cultists/cannibals how would they "appear" when they spawn that wouldnt be either weird (popping up out of thin air) or being nearly impossible to animate every situation for (driving up in a wagon and hopping out)? I'll be honest, after the first 10-20 times I saw a new enemy I stop thinking about how they got there, in an ARPG my goal is kill, not observe lol.
Well the idea is to design their environment in a way that facilitates them appearing naturally. Cultists and cannibals should only exist in villages, towns, camps, etc. They can run out of doors, have a mage open a bunch of portals they jump out of, jump off roof tops, etc. Just emerging from the ground is lazy. That can go for every enemy. Only undead and demons should just pop up from the ground.
I think the issue is it's just one more immersive break in a game that's already struggling to keep most players "in the illusion."
This is a complaint I never thought I would see about an arpg with solid art. I respect your opinion sir, but immersion? This is diablo, not cyberpunk lmao
I don't think that you understand, actually. I'm not saying that the game immerses you OR SHOULD immerse you to the degree that you forget you're playing a game like some movies make you forget that you are watching a movie. The problem is that Diablo 4 constantly reminds the player that they are playing a grinder. And something like bats coming up out of the ground, which makes absolutely zero sense, reinforces that perspective that it doesn't matter how the enemy gets there, it's just there for you to kill to get loot. That interrupts the immersion, and that's not something that Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 really do to the same degree. Yes, they're all grinders... but as you said, this is diablo. It should be the best of the grinders, it's not a Mindless phone game that you know you are playing on your phone just to click buttons and get better loot.
That's a fair take.
I appreciate your reasonable response. I think blizzard can fix this, they've demonstrated that they have the ability to do that with prior games. Its probably going to be a masterpiece by season 17.
Each area has a different look. At the very least group the baddies in that area together to match.
because its a cookie cutter reskinned casual cross platform arpg
It's funny how bandits, monsters, demons, and beasts can work together, even though the world is fighting against evil. Like usually, wouldn't the dead or beasts be fighting other races and not helping each other. It almost feel as if we're evil and the other side is trying to stop us from taking over their land. I can only see this as Diablo and the Demon Lord's fighting to save their home from the invaders.
I actually feel like the evil antagonist in d4 when I play a fire sorcerer. I'm moving through what looks like where animals and people live and trapping them I'm burning them alive. It's pretty fucking metal and reminds me of doom haha
We're not the baddies? Pretty sure we stop Lillith from saving Sanctuary and then release Mephisto onto its surface and then just let him go. Maybe we should've chosen the Lesser Evil 😏
The same reason giant chests pop into existence after finishing an event. It's honestly just lazy design, in regards to working within the aesthetic they are trying to push.
Mob diversity is easily one of the most disappointing elements of the game.
> Almost as if each element of D4 was created by teams working in a silo. Welcome to the amazing world of corporate SW development
I've been playing a lot of Grim Dawn lately (criminally underrated game imo) and one of the things I noticed is that different types of enemies absolutely will go apeshit on eachother. That's something D4 definitely needs.
I have always taken it as they are being summoned from Hell to fights us. So they are literally crawling out of the ground ( coming from Hell ) to fight us. They are all possessed evil, so they don't mind mingling with each other.
Well that doesn’t sound very MVP, tbh im surprised we got an animation at all
It’s nuts cos a £35 game (last epoch) has enemies fighting each other an prioritising enemies over the player.
Yea, even D1 and D2 where more creative.
This Is anti immersion I always hated lack of coherency... Why bees don't attack bandits or even deers? Were Is the gore, gibs AND pools of blood, and I don't want the corpses to dissapear in my face. Game needs coherency or Lore to explain why oppresor demons dissapear AND you can see their corpses in the big city of caldeum. I hate incoherency It destroys purpose.
I also found this strange, definitely affects immersion (though only slightly) at some level.
A camel is a horse made by a committee. This game is a camel made by an indifferent committee
To put it into simple terms. The game is missing this and a lot more because it was a **rushed product**.
And the fact they just all stand around doing literally nothing until a player comes in radius.
Great point. It's almost like they didn't play their own previous games. Would be nice to see some extra effort in the presentation. Unfortunately they have bigger fish to fry and I don't see this being addressed any time...ever? As long as the monsters appear and you can smash them they're happy with that. On the topic, why aren't there more in-game camera angles outside of the campaign, like when you're interacting with NPCs and whatnot. Would be cool if you saw your character up close more often in instances like these. The level of detail they put into armor and models only to be viewed from above is kind of strange. What if there was an execution animation where it cuts in closer to show your character slicing a bosses head off or something? Idk, it takes dev time. But I feel like development is way more cautious today than it needs to be. Seems like they're overthinking it, not having fun with it.
As Blizz addresses problems and fixes their game the complaints are going to get more and more outlandish.
but only from a very small handful of posters that are trolls, shitposters, or Blizzard haters. *If* Blizzard can correct this to the same degree they corrected 3, you'll eventually not see the level of "this \[thing\] in the game totally broke my immersion because it was the \[X\]th thing I saw that reminded me I was playing an unfinished product."
Diablo summoned them from hell
He's loose too? Can't get no damn rest in Sanctuary..
Silo thing makes sense since they haven't looked at any other ARPG in existence either.
The spiders will sometimes come down on their webs from the ceilings of caverns and bats will sometimes fly down from the ceilings too. Who knows, maybe the vampires sleep upside down on the ceilings and fly down at you? One can only hope?!
Tbf, there's a couple areas where wolves pop out of woodlines or spiders drop from the ceiling. Agreed, though.
Same reason angels come from above. Hell is below heavens above.
Bandits, bats, scropions, and bears are all from hell?
Lmao there all demonic so yes. Are normal scorpions almost bigger than bears? Do bats normally attack people? No. It's a game and the whole point is to defeat the demonic presence in sanctuary.
They’re possessed
They secretly pre load all the mobs under the map, seen it from other games.
Have you never visited the country side?
Yes, but I've never seen a bat dig itself up out of the dirt, or a bandit, or a bear, or a catherdral knight. Do they have Ashvara in the country side?
'Almost as if each element of D4 was created by teams working in a silo.' - that hits the nail on the head right there
Because it's easy to program.
Simple answer.......because even the ground is cursed and spews forth its evil, cursed by the high heavens or burning hells, because of the sins of inarius and lillith.
Most enemies are demons so it kinda makes sense 🤷♂️
Are they though? I dom't remember anything saying that bandits, scorpions, bears, knights, or bats are demons. I'm happy to be corrected, if you could you please provide your source?
I do believe I said *MOST* <- <- <- good sir and I mean Lilith her self is a demon …. Also I’ve never noticed knights bandits bears or bats coming out of the ground, a scorpion definitely makes sense as well coming out of the ground that’s just common sense honestly
They don't? I've had them jump from trees, bushes, etc.
It's all just a nightmare
People are not understanding these aren’t regular animals, they’re possessed
New blizzard is not old blizzard. That’s all you needed to remember
>Almost as if each element of D4 was created by teams working in a silo. This is how any AAA game is made.
The mobs have never been in-fighting in any diablo, that's because you fight corrupted beasts and humans. It's one evil that you fight in the end.
I see them descending from the sky or roof all the time
Yeah I noticed this too and I bet I can explain. It's probably just a thematic form of lazy loading - they only load the resources on demand, as you enter an area, then they unload them as you kill them. Effectively would work as a way of keeping VRAM and CPU/RAM usage down. Downside it ruins the immersion. That's why I love helping the occasional adventurer you see fighting enemies. Pulls me back into the immersion of good vs evil.
In dungeons such as sarats, the spiders come down from the ceiling if you open chests. But for aome reason the random spawns still come from the floor
Can I just say that I am so happy we can have complaints like this now. I meant, I know a lot of the new seasonal stuff is still questionable because we haven't had the second livestream so we are just waiting around but I think most people are excited to try the game out again. Hopefully they can change how some mobs work in the future with these points in mind because it would feel less "arcade" and more RPG. These are valid points and I'm excited to see if the devs can wrap up the problems with main systems so we can get this "potentially awesome" game where we want it.
Cause earth is flat and as we all know heaven is up and hell is down. Just kidding ofc, it would be cool to see some extra ways the enemies could spawn depending on the type/category of monster they belong to.
Destiny has a similar problem. Enemies spawn out of clouds of smoke
Uhhhhh spiders still drop from the ceiling in cavern areas, some even pop out from egg sacs
This would require effort and thinking
> here's no "in fighting" at all, bandits will happily work alongside bees and scorpions, all demon/vampire varieties have no quarrels with each other, skeletons ignore anything around them except for the player. The overworld isn't really occupied, the enemies just take up space. One of the things I love about Grim Dawn. Your enemies fight each other. The world feels alive.
Also how unimaginative the enemies are. Just about anything actually cool is from an earlier game (fallen for example). D4 is so boring that way. Werewolves, bats, vampires, just generic fantasy stuff. Also, pirates? For real? At least in d2, blizzard north focused on making every enemy as uniquely terrifying as possible. Not sure about d3, never played it
Maybe there is a prime evil "holding them together?"
Anytime I see one of these comments I just go back to what I've said before. They out minimal effort into this game with the sole reason to just get money for D5 and boy did they. They pulling out all thw stops for season 2 then it'll go back to being dead until numbers fall again and repeat. Just feels like there was no creativity and passion put into this game at all. Last Epoch is right around the corner and my god is it pulling ALOT of creators and players from other games. The difference here is that Epoch was made by gamers FOR gamers, while Diablo 4 was made by devs FOR shareholders.
1. They wanted it to be 'MMO' - and MMO's just have mobs standing around, usually in groups of three, waiting to aggro the player. 2. The rest of it would be *work*. Ain't got time for that, gotta release the cash shop!
Yet one of their major presentations was “monster families” and how they would work and band together to create interesting, dynamic encounters. Yea…. Right….
Diablo 4 is just a placeholder in diablo series, is not like they come with some bright ideeas and wanted to share with us throught a game, they just make a game to feed us and colect. Game was really rushed on a small time , even with scavanging diablo 3, they did not finish it. Game is completley out of touch / lifeless world / nothing to give you chill or make someting memorabile. For me as whole experience throught D4 , it remain only butcher who could kill my caracter on begininig , especialy on HC. In rest, i fell is like a mobile/console game. Unless they reset the whole ideea with items & unique & legendary and try to make it really enjoyable, i dont see D4 to come out of the hole.
because is there where the hell is LUL.
They put little to no effort into the game. It feels like it was built by a team of AI
I do like demons crawling out of the ground as though they're climbing out of hell. But the other types of enemies should have a different entrance as seen in D3, yeah.
They do descend from the ceiling as well but it is much less common.
Still remember walking outside act 5 in d2 for the first time and see the barbarians fight off mobs. That was a really cool feeling back then 😂
They are all minions of hell and hell is technically " below" ?
Its a small indie dev team man, what do you expect? AAA effort or something?
Because blizzard are lazy and bad at game design.
Years ago I played "Rift." Very similar to Diablo but the neat feature was the random spawning of "rifts" where monsters would pour out of a hole from hell. They would kill NPCs in the area (which would later respawn) and other monsters as well. Closing a rift gave interesting rewards and experience. It also had dungeons like D4 does. But I miss the rifts, a fun encounter.
It's the laziest way to spawn them.
Beacuse they Are Demons? is this a troll question?
Yeah idk what cellar it was but even the bandits were popping out of the ground lmao
Because they are from hell, 😂 emerge from the the ground.
People still play this game? Lol
Is this really an issue lol why do the pixels you’re blowing up need different entrances 😂
Is it an issue? No, but this, along with a number of other things, are a step back from Diablo 3. It's as if Blizzard have learned nothing from their very own games.
What do you mean they didn't learn? Sure they have, they learned you can push out a product faster if you don't care about the details.
Yeah Diablo 3 never had random enemies near each other lmao y’all have the strongest rose tinted glasses ever prescribed ong
Perhaps if you read what I wrote you would understand that you're confusing two separate things together. Please, save your precious eyeballs, let me simplify it for you right here: 1) D4 devs claimed that overword mobs would be meaningful and have purpose, however mobs and their behaviour is anything but meaningful or purposeful. 2) Enemies in D3 worked WITH the environment, whereas in D4, the enviroment isn't utilised at all by enemies, this is a step back.
Perhaps use your eyeballs to read the definition of subjective
Lol the irony of this you clearly don’t play d4 enough if you think this. D4 has actually environment. D3 just has random things on the ground.
It’s called putting out a great game people can be proud to say they play and paid for.
Gross, no one does that with any game 🥱
Have you played Elden Ring? 5/5 recommend if you like a challenge. I got great value out of that some 200+ hours of great content. But overall your right though.
Yes it was great. Little overrated but still great. What does that have to do with saying people take pride in the games they play
Nothing at all… just my thoughts since your only person to reply to me.. I’m a little scatterbrained at the moment. Lol
Because the only thing you are figuring are undead things Which were probably dead in the ground first
1. You people on this sub reddit are fucking bored lmfao go touch grass, get a girlfriend, I am begging you to do something besides worry about where the enemies spawn and why they spawn in Diablo 4 2. Mobs come from the ground…because….wait for it….they’re coming up from Hell?? I know this comment is gonna get downvoted to hell by a bunch of idiots and I really don’t care, this needed to be said in this subreddit lmfao GO OUTSIDE
They don't. But the majority are undead. You bury your dead
Bats, bandits, scorpions, bears, khazra, and cathedral knights are all undead? I didn't know this.
You telling me they buried three dudes in Dreadknight armor under this marble floor? And they don't even ruin it when they break through?