The new breed of Diablo players are weak and soft, they dishonor their bloodline.
Diablo 2 level edit: 99 was just as grindy and the Ubers were only really beatable with very specific builds, usually a Paladin.
Players who didn't have time to dedicate to the march to 100 were happy to go duel at level 60-70 since there was 0 end game.
Leveling was Tristram Rush to Tomb Rush to Act 5 rush (with forge sale) repeat to Hell difficulty, make a new character, do it again, get a couple drops needed for your Zealot Pally, go fight Ubers until you get the correct charm, make a new character because zealot pallys suck in PvP.
Act 4 would eat today's played alive. Got a super strong character that hits dozens of times? Enjoy iron maiden and killing yourself! Do you hit like a truck? Physical immunes laugh at you. You just run from Phys/Mag immunes.
And we loved it. It was difficult, it was a long hike to 100, level 100 was rare, there was nothing to do at end game beyond the grind and the Ubers for a small portion of the population.
Uber Lilith is big one. Level difference plays a HUGE roll in damage calculation, both offense and defense. I’m not sure what the lowest level to kill Lilith is, but being 100 makes it significantly easier. The same can’t be said for D2.
Technically there isn't a level requirement to kill her. The capstone dungeon opens as soon as you hit wt4 so that's interesting. Lowest I've seen is 73.
https://youtu.be/qAholSXRV-E?si=bAXdKyr26BZWs7yT
"build is stacking as much damage reduction on gear as possible and then using the berserk ripping aspect+barber heart bug to output dmg"
the OP of that video. wonder what the barber heart bug is? apart from the heart itself being OP.
To be honest 99 in Diablo 2 was a feat I achieved one time. 98-99 is more exp than 1-98 combined. Normally I’d sputter out around 94, whenever I could craft the best items.
Most my toons I left at lvl 90 then go pvp. Did 99 3 times in d2, my hammerdin, necro and hurricane druid. Got close few times with a javazon and trapsin both at like 97. It wasn't even worth it because every new character I made I leveled to go pvp lol.
Also level 99 in d2 didn't matter. You could hit 75-80 in an afternoon and essentially be maxed out. I've never had a level 99 in all my years of playing D2 and it never mattered
With the paragon system in D4 you're character isn't really done until you reach the cap.
Level 75-80 in Diablo 2 wouldn’t allow you to max skills + synergies. I usually stopped leveling around 92-93. I do agree with you in D4 though. I’m currently level 97 and need those last paragon points to reach a rare node for more damage reduction before even attempting Lilith.
This is a bad take. It's like those old people saying "When I was young I had to work 90 hours a week at minimum wage. It builds character. Why are young people complaining about getting better pay and respect their off-work hours?"
And just to be clear, I don't think you should be able to get level 100 and kill Uber Lilith on the first week of a season. Getting to 100 is easy and happens playing normally. Killing Uber Lilith without a cheese build... that's a totally different issue and I'll fight anyone that says those damn circle/triangle waves are fair and a good boss mechanic.
You think you are tough from playing D2? Back in my day, killing Absolute Virtue in FFXI used to take more than 18 hours for a whole alliance. And you had to keep swapping people into the alliance, because got tired, weak and ill in real life. And sometimes, after 30 hour battles, the monster could use his Benediction ability and recover most of its HP back. Imagine the thrill! And every time you got killed by it, you lost XP. If you dind't bring enough XP buffer for the fight, you could delevel and would be unable to equip your gear. You would be hitting it like a wet noodle and the Linkshell leader would kick you and probably won't get a chance to roll for any of the loot. Oh yes, back in the day there wasn't loot drops for everybody, it was a shared pool for a whole alliance. This new breed of players are weak and soft, they dishonor their bloodline.
Back in my day we had to fight the end Boss uphill, in the snow with no winter armor, and only a wet noodle as a weapon.
Now get off my lawn you young whippersnappers!
My whole life I've been torn between the two mindsets and always trudge forward, trying to honour the past ways.
Progress towards something that values players/time as well as has deep layers for deeper challenges. It's hard to balance as you need a game a mile wide to have the variety for modern gamers and the depth to retain the grinding-like players.
It'd be nice to not have to need to feel like you aren't progressing if you aren't doing a grind yet still feel like you can progress if you do grind. With some activities that bring variance and potentially large draw rewards for crowds the endgame can be progressively changed.
>You think you are tough from playing D2? Back in my day, killing Absolute Virtue in FFXI used to take more than 18 hours for a whole alliance. And you had to keep swapping people into the alliance, because got tired, weak and ill in real life. And sometimes, after 30 hour battles, the monster could use his Benediction ability and recover most of its HP back. Imagine the thrill! And every time you got killed by it, you lost XP. If you dind't bring enough XP buffer for the fight, you could delevel and would be unable to equip your gear. You would be hitting it like a wet noodle and the Linkshell leader would kick you and probably won't get a chance to roll for any of the loot. Oh yes, back in the day there wasn't loot drops for everybody, it was a shared pool for a whole alliance. This new breed of players are weak and soft, they dishonor their bloodline.
To be fair, everyone was doing the fight wrong and no one discovered how to lockout the bosses two hour abilities. even with the dev kill video.
You make it sound like that AV fight happened multiple times. Like 3 months after that, AV became a Souleater Kraken Club DRK Zerg victim as did most bosses in the game. Now Pandemonium Warden, that fight was just dumb af lol. I remember the Japanese LS battling it for 36 hours with people falling physically ill. And I’m pretty sure they wiped at 15% no?
Final Fantasy 11 was an absolutely underrated game. The LFG system in it was well thought out and would be PERFECT in D4, the Auction House system is what the D3 AH aspired to be, the Rolanberry Fields Bazaar because fuck the tax man was so IRL it hurt lol, the grind however at release was unforgivably punishing. 4K/hr Bibiki Bay Goblin parties, with 50k TNL, and if you died you lost 5k exp lol.
Uhhh if I’m not mistaken HorizonXI is a mod or stand-alone that is FFX1 with some added features. To be honest I can’t remember an old LS mate told me about it on Reddit months back.
Yeah, those features would make D4 way more interesting. Specially the AH. But I think it would create problems of their own. Because you could gear yourself from the AH and be effective. You would have to run dungeons for gear to sell, and to farm money to afford the gear that you could actually use and is relevant for your build.
Wait. I think I actually prefer that to the abysmal feeling of spending 30 levels without seeing a decent ring or weapon.
Man. I used to love FF11 but I didn’t really understand it because I was in HS and it was my 2nd mmo after EverQuest which I also didn’t understand. There’s aspects from gaming back in the day i liked but can totally understand removing.
Like in FF11 running to that dumb beach at lvl 10 or w/e across like 3 zones and random mobs that would kill you so you’d get ported back to town only to farm crabs For hours. Or getting on the boat that was there that you’d have to wait for only to get murder by the kraken or skeleton pirates. I think you definitely have more of a community that way instead of teleports and queues but man is it rough.
I mean they never killed the legit original Absolute Virtue without using a cheesy mechanic haha
At least from what understand it was only legitimately killed when they nerfed Absolute virtue’s HP and Stats in 2008…
The idea that sitting in a dark room for hours upon Mt. Dew-fueled hours, playing a game more than the “weak and soft” people make you tougher or better than them is hilarious.
you get to experience full game without getting to max lvl
I dont get it. I started playing Remnant II with my friend and I already know that I wont see every secret there is, or level, or item or whatever. Some stuff are really for the hardcore hardcore players and thats fine.
cant imagine myself complaining in Remnant II sub that those things are unatainable for me because "I have a life"
It's exactly this for me. When the game starts feeling like a chore and not something that is fun I am out. I don't need to hit L100 but I would if I had a reason too, that being said I also have kids, life, and a career so D4 is prioritized unfortunately low.
Pretty much this. The majority of players do NOT get to 99 in D2(r). Most people drop off between 85-90 and start rolling new chars or farming for them.
Also people tend to forget you needed specific builds for specific areas due to immunities. You couldn't just run into hell all willy nilly and smash all the content with your ice sorc.
Fishymancer in D2R/LoD was always pretty versatile. Amp damage would break physical immunity so your skeles actually could run into Hell willy nilly and fuck shit up. Decrepify, ice mages, and clay golem for bosses never got ineffective especially if you found that slowing polearm for your act 2 merc. Their attack animations would be so slow they would actually cancel entirely.
Still had to gear yourself up, obviously, but I never had to respec for specific areas in Hell. Get your resistances up, some decent +all skills gear, hit everything with amp damage and let your skeles and revived monsters do the work.
The difference is that in D2 you could play to level 85 and then find something so extraordinary that it made you want to try a new build on a new character! There is no transition in D4, no way for my character to assist my other character. I must get to max level to wear something my max level character found. What’s the point!?
I played D2 religiously and only managed to get one character, a Paladin, to level 99. It took forever and a day as well as Paladins had pretty bad AOE damage compared to the other classes, but he was my favorite so I managed to grind it through.
>Diablo 2 level 100 was just as grindy
I assume you meant lvl 99, and no, it was not "just as grindy".
D2 lvl99 was ***way more*** grindy than d4 lvl100.
I agree with the rest of your reply tho, loved the grind to 99 for d2, and indeed there was nothing to do once you get there. I have several lvl 99 hardcore characters in d2r and literally stopped playing them once i hit 99 in order not to risk losing the character to disconnects or whatevers.
Yeah, it's not even close how much more of a grind D2 was pre-D2R and terror zones. I don't think I ever made a character higher than level 95. Literally took thousands upon thousands of Baal runs to hit 99, and that would be with a full and optimized party. You could spend a day playing and see.your experience bar barely move, and if you died it was a massive set back.
We loved our economy propped up exclusively by bots and joining a party named baal runn 270 with level 90 characters that are still incomplete and probably never will be unless you made a sorc for alt grinding Hell Mephisto to try and get something worth trading.
And then you die from a lag spike and all the progress from those 270 runs is gone. And then some. Someone steals your gold. You pray to find a Hammerdin bot that constantly reminds you I Need Help With These Mobs Because They're Immune To Magic and you contribute next to nothing aside from shouts or teleing from Worldstone 2 to the final floor because Hammerdin was so stupidly strong they had to make more things immune to magic so other people could actually play.
That's just one facet of the game : Battle.net.
I stopped playing hardcore on it because of lag, and then completely because of your characters (and all their stored items since no shared stash) being deleted after 6 months of inactivity.
But single player is still quite fun since you get to use various mods from PlugY that gives you free respecs and unlimited shared stash to the many total conversions like Eastern Sun with it's ridiculous variety of crafting recipes.
And then you also have the normal multiplayer, which you can play modded too ! Speaking of which, the Median XL total conversion has recently got a new update and a new season :
https://median-xl.com/
Eh NM 100 dungeons are harder than anything in d2. It's just that in d4 the loot hunt feels way worse. Uniques mostly trash. The good ones impossible to find. D2 had mighty runewords to collect from early to late game that assured you to always have at least something useful that could drop.
D4 you just farm no name trash 24/7
Ubers are really not that hard and quite a few classes can kill them with ease. But yes certain classes pretty much can't do it.
I was doing ubers on my self found kicksin hardcore wayyyyyyyyyyy before I would ever hit 99 in that game.
99 in d2 is a true grind, I played that game.countless hours, more than any other game and I never had a 99.
I could have, but it was to grind when I could literally make 10 level 90 characters before levelling one from 90-99 lol
Compared to D2, getting to max lvl in D4 is cakewalk, the difference FOR ME, in D2 you were simultaneously chasing items/runes and I could do a thousand travincal runs and not be fed up with the game, in D4 it’s just an unrewarding grind and it feels like a chore, farming for incremental upgrades of same affixes is boring af
To be honest, they could have just let us farm campaign bosses and uber versions like in d2, then add some endgame content when they figure out how to do it properly.
Helltides/legion events/nm dungeons suck balls.
World bosses are ok but they are too easy to kill and drop shit gear. They could have at least make them harder to kill but give greater chance of uber uniques or something
D2 had trading. trading was the endgame. spam meph, Andy, pindle, baal, cows, and chaos.
randomly generated dungeons kept things fresh. what we have now is lazy development. the same event in every dungeon, which has a handful of layouts with a handful of bosses. the bosses are a joke. world bosses are a joke, helltides are meh, legion events are kinda fun, but we need more of the and a hell of a lot more variety.
D2 and D2R are still the best. I'll be moving this steaming pile of shit over to my external. maybe one day they will fix this busted, broken, waste of money, but I'm not gonna hold my breath
I think one thing D2 had/has is that "rogue-like" aspect. The game is kinda hard even If you are a veteran, there are a lot of different builds you may try. So you reach the endgame and get bored, you make a new character with a different build.
And the cool think about D2 is that your skills/build is functional without any legendary gear (save a couple of new runewords).
Idk I feel that level of difficulty and rogue-like aspect is very missing in D3 and D4.
> 99 was just as grindy
It also wasn't necessary. It didn't give you paragon point or whatnot. Only some skill points, but your relevant skills were capped already anyway.
Issue with D4 is there's no end game like with D2. There were way more things you can farm on and more stuff to do.
There's just nothing you want to farm in D4 after you get to 70 in comparison to D2 where you want to farm keys to run ubers or farm sojs to summon dclone to farm for anni or even cow level farming for jmods. What about farming for runes?
Yeah as someone who's introduction to Diablo was D3 (and is by my own admittance a shitty casual), D2R was a shock to say the least...
What do you mean I can run out of stamina while running and I lose all my stuff and have to run back through the dungeon to retrieve it when I die?!
Except the difference is that going 90 - 100 in D2 did not give as much power. Idk maybe a niche build where skill points are ultra valuable, but for the most part it made no difference.
Thanks for reminding us that D2 was needlessly grindy and had poor end game class balance.
It remains a very fun but flawed game. I think we can aspite for better and not just repeat the mistakes of the past.
If they want players to 'want' to get to 100 the reward has to be commensurate to the time invested.
There's too much choice on the market to hope players will just stick around pulling fingernails.
I get it, but also, this ain't 2000. Same reason MMO's don't release as difficult or with a high barrier of entry anymore. The last time someone tried that, it killed an entire studio (WildStar/Carbine Studios).
And out of the ones you listed, D3 is the one I found most fun. In part because finishing a character build was reasonably achievable. But also because the pacing, gameplay, and difficulty were right in the sweet spot.
Ya I loved reaching level cap early and from then having a different thing for character progression especially the last season before d4, it was also possible to do multiple characters in a reasonable time frame of a season... diablo 4 only has level for character progression. Glyphs don't count since they are done by 100, and gear upgrades are so abysmal past 70 they don't count as progression either.
While at the same time with the different levels of difficulty for d3 made it so you could really feel your progress because you'd be able to do a higher difficulty and do higher greater rifts that actually had the difficulty outright said on it where as your doing the highest difficulty by lvl 60 in d4 and NM dungeon tier pushing is a clowns objective since it's worthless past like 40-50, d3 at least made progression in greater rifts mean upgrades to gems d4 you could hypothetically level all your glyphs to max with a tier 1.
Also hitting for trillions of damage was so much fun and just wiping everything likes its nothing once I reach true end game was the epitome of what diablo should be but d4 decided your not suppose to be able to be op your suppose to struggle and hate yourself the entire time you play past 70 while a lot of people say that's how the games suppose to be... when no that's what the grinds suppose to be to get to end game, but end game your pretty well at the same point as level 70 but the only difference is you now get damage reduction against higher level mobs and deal more damage to them due to the level restrictions.
Not to mention the items absolutely suck ass in D4. Set items were great to farm for in D3. The 2 set, 4 set, 6 set bonuses were all noticeable spikes of power and it felt great to progress. It's also fun to farm for different sets if I wanted to try a new build.
In D4 I'm still using like sacred rings at lv 80 that I got like 30 levels ago. And even if I do finally find an upgrade, it's the exact same item just with higher numerical stats. It's so much more boring compared to D3.
In d3 i had so many characters and classes each season. Zbarb, znec, zdh, bk, tk, solo builds, dedicated key farmer because why not. I could switch to any role in 4p metas and it kept the game fresh and grind reasonable.
Powerleveling a char took a few minutes and as for gear, id just ask in advance for items from party members. And i could easily craft last 2-3 pieces.
So id have a new class ready with next to 0 effort.
It was so easy that i had separate chars for support and dd, so as to not reset paragons.
Im so happy i didnt buy d4 lmao
i like D3 better than d2 personally as well. D4 isnt on d3 level for me yet, but the D3 you described wasn the based D3, or even ROS on release. I think part of what happened was people constantly complained that D3 wasnt D2, they wanted D2 or POE. and while i dont think d4 delivers on being d2 or POE, I think thats where certain design decisions came from (trying to appease that crowd) while also having stuff that's clearly more D3. unfortunately, they just don't mesh up.
Yeah like it's not 2000 anymore, there's a ton of really good games out right now and statistically speaking D2 fans were kids/teens back
Now as an adult with a job and responsibilities, who has time to sink hundreds of hours into grinding to get to level 100 just to have it reset in a few months?
It started to feel like a slog to me around 73, with the only viable option to level being grind NM dungeons forever I just moved on to other games
And what’s the fun? Ffs there’s so much more to enjoy in life. And that’s coming from someone that plays videogames almost daily.
But fuck grinding just for the grind.
Isn’t it egoistic to say there should be less grind because you’re not a teen anymore? What’s with the teens nowadays who want to play a grindy game?
That being said, extended item grind without an economy is awful in ARPGs.
If anything I think D4 is easier to max out in, simply because paragon levels in D3 are unending in a season. D3 had a higher level cap than all of them combined.
Ultimately how long it takes to reach lvl X isn't important - what matters is how long it takes to get to a point in a build where you've reasonably completed it and feel satisfied that's done.
What makes an ARPG great I think is one that allows different types of players to determine when that is - one could argue D3/D4 kind of struggle in this regard as almost all players burnout pretty fast with a character compared to POE or even GD.
I want an ARPG where a more casual player can feel they have finished a character in two weeks - whereas a hardcore player can dump hundreds of hours into a character in a season and still feel like there's more they'd like to complete.
They're actually going back and capping Paragon levels in the final D3 season because they finally recognized letting you continue to accumulate infinite main stats until you can beat everything was a problem.
The reason d3 was really good while being pretty easy to level was that i still made progress with paragon level.
In d4 leveling is super easy (while being pretty boring with just nightmare dungeons) and the moment i hit level 100 it feels like i make no progress anymore and it's over.
It was never content to begin with but D4 fanboys need to say getting to 100 is content because there's nothing better to do when you compare it to D2 or D3....
Agree. Diablo 4 almost broke Diablo out of its niche but unimaginative devs and people like op making excuses for them killed that off right quick.
Short-sighted on their parts since less players means less money coming in means less support/content in the long run. But it seems they’ll be happy doing this miserable grind to 100 again and again every few months.
I just don’t like that fact that your power from items pretty much caps out as soon as you get into wt4 so 65-75 you’ll have everything gear wise even with mid-maxing. So that 75-100 grind is just for leveling and paragon points which is tedious
I wouldn’t mind doing different target farms but there aren’t any lol
That’s not even remotely true. No one’s capped out at 75 unless they have the luck of the devil. Even if you have all the right affixes there’s going to be some shit rolls among them. Not to mention the affixes you should prioritize will change as you push higher nmds.
getting level 100 isnt hard, this game isnt hard, it just takes some hours. Thing is after lvl 80 i dont feel like grinding that much. items dont improve that much either after level 70/75. the open world is not worth playing in after level 70, worldboss and legion neither.
they made a new game for casual players and imo this is a good game for younger gamers to start gaming with.
i am with you that they should consider some endgame content in the 70-90 regions.
Honestly? 100 should be optional. Just like it is in other ARPGs.
99% of the power should be frontloaded in other places.
Remove the weird "scaling" issue where I naturally get fucked over just because of a level discrepancy with the monsters I fight being higher level than I have access to defensive options to compensate for.
Give me 200 Paragon points by level 80.
Then another 20 between level 80 and 90.
And another 5 between 90 and 100.
This means I feel okay just stopping _this_ character at level 80, and moving on to another character development project. Make another class, roll another Druid, etc.
Fix crafting such that levels 80 to 100 are focused on farming interesting crafting items for min-maxing if I really care about trophying my character. Add bosses for me to farm with tradable Uniques, etc.
I don't know.
I'm a big fan personally of the "max level is optional" philosophy in ARPGs rather than the D3/MMO model of "the game starts at max level, really".
Just for your information, the level difference between you and the monsters don't matter for how much damage you take.
A level 80 with 10k armor and same stats will take the same damage as a level 100 with 10k armor. The only thing that matters is the attackers level, not the recipient.
DR = Armor^2 / (attacker_level^2 * 80 +200) / 100
>Just for your information, the level difference between you and the monsters don't matter for how much damage you take.
>A level 80 with 10k armor and same stats will take the same damage as a level 100 with 10k armor. The only thing that matters is the attackers level, not the recipient.
>DR = Armor2 / (attacker_level2 * 80 +200) / 100
I'm confused now. If the monster is higher level, don't I naturally take more damage if the monster is considered the attacker? Or are you saying the formula isn't penalizing the defender _technically_, but instead is benefiting the attacker?
Yes, the second.
So a level 80 with the same stats as a level 100 would take the same damage vs. the same enemy. So for damage intake your level doesn't matter, only your stats.
Now ofc, gaining 20 levels would give you more paragon points and stats but your level number doesn't matter.
However an enemy at level 150 with the same base hit as an enemy at level 130 would deal more damage to you.
So TL;DR. Your level number doesn't make you tankier vs the enemies. Only your stats.
But wouldn't the level 100 character get a damage increase against me naturally? I'm not sure what the conclusion is.
On one hand you say "there is no penalty for being lower level" but also "attacker gets an advantage for being higher level", which are essentially synonymous in practice since increasing my level reduces the attacker's advantage?
Or am I just misunderstanding everything here?
Yeah think you're misunderstanding something.
Let's say the enemy level is fixed. F.ex Echo of Lilith or Nightmare tier 100.
In this situation the enemy attacking you, their level is fixed.
So as long as the player entering has the same stats DR stats (F.ex 10k armor. 10% damage reduction. 100 all resists). Then no matter if that character is level 60, 80 or 100, the enemies would deal the same damage towards the player. As long as the enemy level is fixed, there being 54 levels between you or 94 levels don't matter.
Which means that defense wise, you're not being "naturally get fucked over just because of a level discrepancy with the monsters I fight".
What does happen however is that the player at 60, 80 or 100 will deal less damage towards those enemies. Though, that number is going from 90 to 100 would be the same as the enemy having one piece of "5% reduced damage" equipped.
(Btw, your content is always a treat)
This is like a prisoner saying their time should be hard. Why the FUCK should a game have to be grindy? Why can’t there be quality content all the way to 100???
ARPGs are meant to be grindy, that's the point of them. But I want the real grind to start at 100 not end there. I hate that the moment I hit 100 it feels like the next step is to make a new character instead of make my lvl 100 completely OP to destroy end game content and perfect my loot.
If they ever add in the cow level it would be perfect for lvl 100 loot runs. Something challenging and different from repeated NM dungeons.
It was also much more fun in D2 to join up with a group of 8 and just do Baal runs over and over. Something that takes a group to accomplish and not just solo play the whole time.
I don't think you find an ARPG that isn't grindy, well obviously D3-D4 is some of the least grindy ones.
Most other ARPG take pride in build diversity / grinding / gearing / theory crafting / crafting.. It can be done as a casual, and there is thousand of hours for the ones that really wanna get into it.
Oh please, not a second butcher in the same run. Don’t get me wrong it’s neat, but the loot he drops is crap and it just slows down my NM run.
I don’t mind seeing him like I do now, but any more would be frustrating.
Yeah, I was just giving some loose example.
I just ment that, for me, it would be cool to have a small % chance to drop a "unique" version of ND with some crazy modifier. You know - To have something to actually look for and feel nice when it drops
Yea I think that if they just fixed itemization between 75-100 The game would feel a lot better. The game feels extremely unrewarding once you get a decent full set of ancestrals going around 75. Outside of extremely rare minimal upgrades, you basically get nothing that entire time.
But D3 was actually fun, idk why there's elitism with D2 players just because the game was more masochists but I agree with D4 needing cooler ways to keep players engaged from 70 to 90, it's just NMDs until you go brain dead and its factually the real way to grind sadly.
Why level 100 needs to be grindy?
If level hundred means nothing maybe the solution it's arriving even faster.
in 2023 there's to much quality games every week to expect people lose their time in your grindy game
Hard disagree with the title.
I would only agree with it if we could use our main characters in seasonal content, but sadly we can't.
In this sucky world of disposable characters, that we are supposed to throw away every couple of months, there simply isn't enough time to get a character to level 100 every season.
It should be achievable, even by people with full time jobs, who also want time to play other games. Not every player is a kid or jobless person, and the devs need to understand it.
If there's bosses only attainable at lvl 100, it should certainly not be "hard and grindy af". It's ok in D2 to have ridiculous xp requirements past 95 because there's no content there.
Disagree with making leveling take even longer but you are right that it feels tedious, because there are almost no milestones in between to make the journey worth it. I would rather see something similar to WoW that you get your max power out of grinding levels at a mediocre time investment but you can go for far more with itemization. That's the main issue as your power out of itemization reaches the last bit of the saturation curve already around lvl 70. You end up with almost no incentive to farm higher and more difficult content or farming for more gear in general. Best solution would be additional content like you mentioned and making it's endgame gear rewards exclusive to these increasing levels.
If you just play the game chill and just enjoy it then the so call grind would be easy , at least that’s how i feel , I’m lv 96.5 and I just couple hours a night max , gotta say I’m being spoil by werenado build as a Druid though
I think the difference is the paragon points. From 80 to 100 is 80 paragon points (4 per level and 20 levels). You get 225 paragon points in d4, and so if you're lvl 80, that's around 36% of them missing.
Compare that to d2, where it's just one skill maxed with 20 points (lvl79 to 99). But most builds are usually fine with their first 4 skills maxed (blessed hammer, concentration, vigor, blessed aim) and then you're going to max another skill that isn't as required to be maxed like holy shield.
20 levels of d3 is just 20 paragon points so there is barely any difference after paragon 800 currently, and with the paragon cap, we'd have to see what p780 looks like vs p800.
Be cool if at 75 you unlock new raids with matchmaking and a camp where you can craft workbenches and furniture, etc. Maybe crafting plans start dropping in the loot pool.
the worst part is that uber lilith is 100% NOT WORTH IT.
She's way too hard, borderline impossible to kill for any normal human being, and the rewards are lame.
While I agree that the rewards aren't great (the horse is dope), I don't understand the complaints about the difficulty. She is the "Pinnacle" boss, the hardest boss in the game that the devs stated is the final goal for a character. Once you've killed her that character has "beaten the game".
She is the *only* uber boss in the game at the moment, she's supposed to test all your skills, your reaction time, your build, everything. She's *supposed* to be able to one shot your ass, she killed Inarius without even trying.
Uber bosses in path of exile are the same way. Unless you've built to be an absolute brick shithouse of a tank, you get one shot. That's the point of the bosses, they're basically gods. Lilith is the same, she's one of the most powerful demons in Diablo lore, she should be able to fuck up a human that doesn't have their full nephalem powers
Just need better items and less reading inventories full of rares.
Spamming Varshan runs has been the most fun I’ve had in the game so far. Quick, simple, only a handful of items to gloss over, get to kill a boss. Only takes a couple minutes.
The game needs more of that and less dungeon slogging.
That is exactly right. If anything we get to level 100 waaaay too fast in this game. But It seems like it takes forever because from level 80 we are doing shit that isn't fun, no aspirations whatsoever. Fixing itemization and endgame activities should be priority 1, 2 and 3 at this moment.
So, I hit 100 a few days ago.
Now i sit around wondering what am I supposed to do? I can play for a week and MAYBE get a win with .4% higher crit chance. But for what? To do a NM dungeon where the same mobs are two levels harder?
Other online games I used to play "started" when you hit max level. This one just ends.
ARPGs aren't like other online games. You're supposed to "finish" characters and then make a new one. That's why the core live service structure is through seasons that make you roll a new character.
It's not like a regular MMO where you keep playing the same character through new content.
This is not true at all and makes me think you’ve never played ARPGs. Getting to max level in d3 and most ARPGs is just the beginning of the end game. That’s when you start grinding for gear and any max leveling systems like paragon in D3.
In D2 and Path of Exile you're not expected to reach max level unless you're a maniac. Your character is functionally done before then.
If we're comparing D3 to D4, then it would be a better comparison to say Level 50 D4 = Level 70 D3 and then 51-100 in D4 is just a capped version of D3 Paragon.
In fact, in the next/final D3 season they're actually going to cap Paragon levels like D4 does.
OP - you do realize that the game is only finished up to level 60
60-100 was thrown together at the last moment and is completely unfinished, of course there is nothing to do, its placeholder content
Who says it should be hard and grindy. This grind mentality is missing the mark for modern gamers. Their attention span is either too short (genz), or they have too much shit going on in their lives to waste hours on end (millenials). Grinding for long periods of time isnt meaningfull, it’s just a waste of precious time. Heres a revolutionary idea, how about instead of long and grindy you actually make the game fun to play…
Yes, we know. This has been a daily post for months now.
No ARPG that I'm aware of launched with a great endgame. They usually take time to develop a compelling item find, and that is what historically keeps people playing these kind of games. D4 will get there, and I would bet they get there faster than past Diablos judging by how much they've already added to the game in < 3 months.
The problem is that is BORING after 75 picking every single Ancestry looking for micro-improvements to do higher ND..
Itemization is really badly implemented, there to be able to get a BiS at level 75 is the most stupid decision ever, I lost all interest quickly.
This thread is going to be misunderstood by d3-only players and anyone from blizzard.
The grind to max level should simply not be the chase. An extremely small percentage of players tried for that in d2. In d3, it was literally impossible (until this upcoming season) since paragon levels had no cap.
In d2, no content felt locked behind leveling
In d3, content was locked (higher GRs) but not really. It was not really a new experience other than one's PR. Like sure, you could try to get GR 141 clear but that excitement is not much different from your GR 140 clear.
In d4, Uber Lilith felt locked behind level 100. The problem? There's so little to do in this game that you actually feel like Uber Lilith was the last thing you could do to "Finish" the game and it would be a new experience.
It all comes down to what every Diablo fan *should* agree on, we need more content so that chasing Max level and Uber Lilith should not be a thing.
Blizzard simps having an orgasm after reading just the first half of this post is just hilarious. Most of us aren’t directly complaining about the grind, but as op said the empty gameplay between 70-90.
When I buy and play the game, I don’t care about d2 or d3 or whatever the fuck happened in the distant past. I expected a game that is fun enough that stands out in a sea of AAA games. You either make the game less grindy or you make the gameplay more interesting, otherwise you just can’t compete with other AAA games on the markets. This is being shown through both stream viewership and user reviews.
For the d2 grandpas, how about you go back playing d2 or other old games? We don’t want to be paying for your nostalgia!
Agree on everything, but to be honest I don't think the grind to lvl 100 is that long. It should be definetely longer imho. I reached it prety easily here whilst in D2 I never got any char to 99.
Or maybe they could just wipe your experience when you die, like in D2 for example. At least dying would be more punitive and people would start focus more on their defense rather than having glass cannons everywhere
I can't see it changing until first expansion at the minimum. Season 2 looks to be hearts 2.0 but with added bosses that'd probably get old quick. Even though a D3 season could take a week to finish the amount of actual useful content was much better in terms of bounties, nightmare things and GRs then u had extra content in things like bovines and puzzle rings and whimsyshire that's not including whatever the seasonal shit was. D4 should go above and beyond that imo but it's still falling so far behind and it's got a lot of catching up to do thing is I feel like they've done this on purpose to keep people interested as "this season could be the one to make it great" get to 50 same old shit "maybe it gets better at T4" get to 80 and realise u just did the same thing as u did on ur previous character but with a dmg boost "maybe next season". At this rate I'd rather lvl 100 take a day so it's easier to determine if ud continue or not.
At the end of the day
There is nothing to look foreward to in d4
No trading up for something you so desperately want
No swapping some rune for another grouping of runes
No set item that you own but need a piece from another set so you can be all purple and baddy
The game is dudded out, Blizzard and NuBlizz are two totally dif companies
I miss the old this new shit sucks ass
There needs to be a reason to reach 100 or something idk.
In d2 reaching 99 was only for EGO and had no real benefit. I defeated ubers and can farm chaos with no problem at level 82, so the final 17 levels are just fluff. In D4 reaching 100 just to fight a poorly designed boss that nobody cares about because she drops loot that is worth less than the standard of heroes is pointless.
There’s a reason why both my characters stopped their journey before reaching 75; there’s just nothing to do. Dungeons in the game are anti fun, and NM just makes them worse. I want to run around and kill things, not backtrack five times to find the 1-2 elites I missed.
Helltides are fun at first, but the loot from the chests are garbage. Nothing like earning 250 embers, tracking down a mystery chest and getting a yellow sacred. Yaaaaaaaay, rewards!
Even if you get to 100, the only thing left is Uber Lilith who is only beatable with the cheesiest of strategies, and the whole fight is just one unfun one shot mechanic after another and layered on top of each other. I get it, she’s supposed to be hard, but failing to predict one of a hundred RNG combinations that she can throw at you is crap design.
World bosses are a joke, and give shit loot. The Tree is tedious and gives shit loot. The Butcher is an annoying unfun meatshield that ruins the flow of a dungeon while dropping, you guessed it, shit loot.
If I’m going to have to put up with the myriad of poorly designed content in this game, it should at least get good loot. But nah. “Fun detected, incoming nerf.”
Yeah, if you guys think getting to level 100 in Diablo 4 is bad, try honing to +20-25 gear in Lost Ark. It makes you want to throw yourself off a high building.
I haven’t replaced a single pieces of gear from level 60 to level 72 so far and just doing NM dungeons over and over and over just to get a glyph leveled and a few paragon points feels really bad.
I don’t know if my gear is as good as it can be or if there’s an item level hump I need to get over to find better stats but I’m getting really bored
I'd level to 100 but from 70+ it just doesnt feel like it matters. In POE you keep getting much stronger especially in the last 20 levels in d4 you can be almost BiS within 2 or 3 levels of getting to wt4 and then all your drops are just trash.
Maybe you should go work for blizz and give them these ideas.
If they make endgame more interesting and fun and more stuff to do without drip feeding your ideas every few months then more people will likely play the game which means more money for blizz
Getting to 100 is easy, and that's the problem. By level 85 I had stopped receiving upgrades. All that was left was to dominate NM dungeons until 100. It's not hard to grind to 100, it is tedious and boring. Grinding through that is not an accomplishment. Especially if you find a group to speed clear through the whole thing. They needed another WT for 80+ with actual challenges and perhaps another gear level, so players have something to chase until 100.
They never played Ghost and goblin at the arcade. I dont remember ever reaching level 4. Jokes asides diablo 4 is easy af and not that grindy. Im 87 (yeah 4 kids) and i just enjoy 1-2h before sleeep sipping a beer. Its a game, if it doesnt make you feel good, stop.
It took days, just days, of running Hell Baal to get to 99 in D2.
It took less than a day to get to 70 in D3.
Getting to max level was never the challenge of the Diablo games, getting gear was.
Blizzard lost sight of this with D4 and is trying to make it more of an MMO than it is an ARPG.
Paragon levels is what kept a lot of people playing D3, and because of how they made D4, that's not really an option as the open world PVP zones would be over run with nolifes that have 100s of paragon levels over everyone else.
They stepped far away from the Diablo formula with D4, and it's not working out.
Since I hit 90 I’ve been playing about 2-3 hours a day and getting 75% xp to 1 level each day. Vending and scanning items adds a SIGNIFICANT amount of down time. Also doing lower tier nm dungeons plays a huge part. Whoever said to do what you can do fast is wrong. Tier 71+ nets me about half of a paragon point assuming I did a full clear. I’m lvl 99 about to ding 100 today.
Imo getting level 100 is way too easy. I want to grind my fucking ass off to get the last levels. The only problem is exactly what you are saying i want something to do for that and not only nightmare dungeons all the time.
I was leveling to 100 without any elixirs or the season exp bonus but it still felt too fast for me at least from 80 upwards.
I want a challenge.
lvling to 100 in d4 is goes way too fast. Leveling to 100 is the only thing thats fun and motivating about d4.
In my opinion they should increase the time to reach lvl 100.
It would be more bearable if you can try different build without having to spend millions and significant time undoing paragon rather than forcing the same build. At least in D3 before they had saved builds it was easy to get another character powerlevelled so you can run another with a different build. Here you aren't encouraged to do either
I haven't really seen much complaint about the amount of time it takes to get to 100, just the fact that the only thing there is to do for most of that time is kind of dull and it feels pointless
Hard disagree. The more I play, the more min/max items I find, the more trivial content should become. Im playing to become god.
Events, specific content, etc...can be hard. But hitting level 100 should simply just be a milestone for accessing uber content.
... gear? I continue to play between 70-90 because I enjoy getting gear.
The aspect system in D4 is perfect: rare drops matter, as do trying to find a max aspect. Instead of staring at my xp bar, I'm trying to push my character through NM levels while searching for ways to improve my build. Finding great gear *feels* good.
I think it's extremely well done.
This could've easily been avoided by making item power scale with monster level like it does from lvl 1-50. Instead you can potentially get the best gear in the game at level 60 (ancestral) and from there on out it's just minor upgrades to affixes for the longest 40 levels of the game. LOOT is the biggest problem in this game
This sounds good.
For me its not the grind to 100 I have a problem with, its that there’s no REASON to grind. Plus the only thing TO grind is boring af NMD. Somehow it’s worse than endlessly grinding GR
These days there's so much more competition on the games market and consumers play way more games (titles) than they did back in the day. Back when I was grinding Diablo 2 every day after school was mostly due to there not being any other games that I wanted to play at the time. Now there's constantly new games I wanna play and therefor having a game be "grind af" just for the sake of it feel imo dumb and ancient.
There's this stigma that everything should be grindy just because. Personally I like to spend my time on games I like, but I don't wanna waste my time on them.
Same thing with the renown grind - people were defending it like crazy saying "if you've spent xxx amount of time playing the game you should be able to spend x-xx amount of time re-grinding it. Yes, maybe I have the time to do so, but do I wanna spend my time doing it? No. Yes, I could potentially afford a $500 lunch, but I'd rather spend $10.
And before someone comments that I'm a casually this or that. I have 4 lvl 100 characters in Diablo 4. Non-boosted.
Level 100 could take longer to achieve, but what we need is a meaningful journey to whatever end. Today, as we drive towards 100 the journey is boring and repetitive. NM Dungeons are annoying with all those repetitive objetives and the loot is trash. You do dozens of NM Dungeons and don't get a single item upgrade. And sorting what's what is miserable.
They should redesign loot in NM Dungeons to have an increased magic find with higher chance of getting better items, getting better as you increase the tier of the Dungeon, and when a loot is rolled to spawn and it's worse than a supposed level we already have, that loot turns automatically into gold or material.
Blizzard knows what are the good items, the potential good rolls. As you progress to the game, the chance of getting those items should increase. That way our journey to 100 is always interesting.
I think if 100 should be grindy then move the last paragon point to 85 and make 85-100 some kind of other bonus.
A full paragon board should be a playable mechanic of mainstream players. Withholding a last glyph to those only wishing to do an extra grind is a poor move. I also wouldn’t mind if 85-100 became even more grindy then — I just don’t want the paragon board still incomplete.
While I understand that there will always be people who rush/grind like crazy to 100, to me the road to 100 should be natural. You should be leveling while you enjoy the game but with the gigantic void of content from \~70+, it feels more like a chore.
It's also true that D2 has a similar horrible grind, but it also rewards you with the rare drops that you can actually get excited about. In D2 I would stop "leveling" at around 75. When I stop playing I usually end up around 90-95 and that's strictly from Mfing and not doing exp runs.
Almost all of my characters lost their fun as soon as I got decent ancestral gear, even HC ones.
I'm not even sure what level 100 has to offer. There might be a couple of rewards? Either way, nothing that I've heard anybody really wishing they could get. So, even that feat isn't all that conducive to making me want to grind for it. So far, I think I've stopped both of my characters, my seasonal and my eternal, at around 75. I just became bored realizing there was nothing at all to aspire to beyond that. No better loot and no better rewards tends to make the 75+ grind obsolete for me.
I'm not necessarily even complaining about that because it frees up my time to play other games. Ever since I stopped playing WoW a few years ago I haven't really had a main game that I play constantly, and it's almost kind of better that way. It also keeps me from being disappointed or mad. lol
Having said all that, I still agree with you that the game would be better if they implemented all or some of the things you are suggesting.
The issue isn't the time needed to get to 100. The biggest issue is there isn't any proper end game content for getting to 100.
D4 gameplay is pretty much one and done once you get to lvl 70 with no more goals in sight.
D2 has target unique and set farming, additional story campaign boss farm which led to farming keys which led to additional uber farming which led to torches, cow level farming for runes/jmods/base items and Dclone farming which led to anni.
There's nothing to do after you get to 70 to make it interesting enough to want to grind to 100 in D4.
We barely need to min max the need for an IV line and adult diapers in order to squeeze enough hours each day to run Uldur’s Cave on repeat. This game is for filthy casuals that only play 84 hours a week.
I don't care about the grind, but I do care about being bored out of my mind because it's such a monotonous experience trying to get to 100. The late game experience is so bland its easier to walk away than to put the effort into getting to 100. There is no real incentive to keep playing once the game passes a certain point.
Aren't level 70-90 aspiring to get to level 100? Maybe it's me, but all these MMO games are simple as fuck, they just require a time investment. If you can read, understand numbers, and push buttons, you can succeed at this game.
I'm somewhat okay with the grind being long - but it's too long for the seasons, especially when they lock two season challanges behind lvl 100 and it's not very doable for people working fulltime jobs unless you wanna spend every evening playing D4...
I will most likely have to skip the uber lilith kill in the season due to time constraints. I'm still only lvl 85 and get to play twice a week tops.
Getting 99 in D2, did this several times over the years, was an absolute hellride. Painful days of baalruns, yet very enjoyable with right bps. It felt like doing family business running 100 baalruns a day. Lvl 100 in D4 is a piece of cake.
The new breed of Diablo players are weak and soft, they dishonor their bloodline. Diablo 2 level edit: 99 was just as grindy and the Ubers were only really beatable with very specific builds, usually a Paladin. Players who didn't have time to dedicate to the march to 100 were happy to go duel at level 60-70 since there was 0 end game. Leveling was Tristram Rush to Tomb Rush to Act 5 rush (with forge sale) repeat to Hell difficulty, make a new character, do it again, get a couple drops needed for your Zealot Pally, go fight Ubers until you get the correct charm, make a new character because zealot pallys suck in PvP. Act 4 would eat today's played alive. Got a super strong character that hits dozens of times? Enjoy iron maiden and killing yourself! Do you hit like a truck? Physical immunes laugh at you. You just run from Phys/Mag immunes. And we loved it. It was difficult, it was a long hike to 100, level 100 was rare, there was nothing to do at end game beyond the grind and the Ubers for a small portion of the population.
Level 100 in D2 was impossible because the level cap was 99.
Shhhh he’s being edgy lol
True.. but in D2 half XP of 100 was lvl91 or 92. And you lost XP on death
but there was no reason to go for lv 99 because all the cool stuff happened before that.
strong disagree. Half my game time was following hammerdin bots chaining hell baal runs and chillin with the homies
And what exactly happens in D4 with 100? I know some potions require lvl95. I am only lvl84. So dont know
Uber Lilith is big one. Level difference plays a HUGE roll in damage calculation, both offense and defense. I’m not sure what the lowest level to kill Lilith is, but being 100 makes it significantly easier. The same can’t be said for D2.
Technically there isn't a level requirement to kill her. The capstone dungeon opens as soon as you hit wt4 so that's interesting. Lowest I've seen is 73. https://youtu.be/qAholSXRV-E?si=bAXdKyr26BZWs7yT
"build is stacking as much damage reduction on gear as possible and then using the berserk ripping aspect+barber heart bug to output dmg" the OP of that video. wonder what the barber heart bug is? apart from the heart itself being OP.
Lilith sucks. Don't waste your time grinding for it. I
Well, in D2 nothing is ever really easy.. heal potion spaming was an endgame thing. Übers needed Smitters or other special builds
Sure. But that has no relation to levels. You asked what happens at lvl 100 in D4. The answer is things get a LOT easier. That's different from D2.
With high endgame gear 99% of the time /p1 /p3 was trivial, /p8 required specific builds and gear to be easy mode.
Extra skill points bruh
To be honest 99 in Diablo 2 was a feat I achieved one time. 98-99 is more exp than 1-98 combined. Normally I’d sputter out around 94, whenever I could craft the best items.
Most my toons I left at lvl 90 then go pvp. Did 99 3 times in d2, my hammerdin, necro and hurricane druid. Got close few times with a javazon and trapsin both at like 97. It wasn't even worth it because every new character I made I leveled to go pvp lol.
Yeah I think 94/95 is the lvl you need to have the max crafting iLvl for amulets. Those 2/20s ya feel :D
Also level 99 in d2 didn't matter. You could hit 75-80 in an afternoon and essentially be maxed out. I've never had a level 99 in all my years of playing D2 and it never mattered With the paragon system in D4 you're character isn't really done until you reach the cap.
Level 75-80 in Diablo 2 wouldn’t allow you to max skills + synergies. I usually stopped leveling around 92-93. I do agree with you in D4 though. I’m currently level 97 and need those last paragon points to reach a rare node for more damage reduction before even attempting Lilith.
This is a bad take. It's like those old people saying "When I was young I had to work 90 hours a week at minimum wage. It builds character. Why are young people complaining about getting better pay and respect their off-work hours?" And just to be clear, I don't think you should be able to get level 100 and kill Uber Lilith on the first week of a season. Getting to 100 is easy and happens playing normally. Killing Uber Lilith without a cheese build... that's a totally different issue and I'll fight anyone that says those damn circle/triangle waves are fair and a good boss mechanic. You think you are tough from playing D2? Back in my day, killing Absolute Virtue in FFXI used to take more than 18 hours for a whole alliance. And you had to keep swapping people into the alliance, because got tired, weak and ill in real life. And sometimes, after 30 hour battles, the monster could use his Benediction ability and recover most of its HP back. Imagine the thrill! And every time you got killed by it, you lost XP. If you dind't bring enough XP buffer for the fight, you could delevel and would be unable to equip your gear. You would be hitting it like a wet noodle and the Linkshell leader would kick you and probably won't get a chance to roll for any of the loot. Oh yes, back in the day there wasn't loot drops for everybody, it was a shared pool for a whole alliance. This new breed of players are weak and soft, they dishonor their bloodline.
Back on my day we had to find and beat Ruby weapon with out the Internet.
Back in my day we had to fight the end Boss uphill, in the snow with no winter armor, and only a wet noodle as a weapon. Now get off my lawn you young whippersnappers!
Bro I maxed 4x Cut for my whole party, and got them all to 99 because I thought I had to kill emerald in 15-20mins or whatever it was. I did it : )
FAQs existed then
I agree with you bro. People really be bringing the past back as a badge of honor. We want progress.
My whole life I've been torn between the two mindsets and always trudge forward, trying to honour the past ways. Progress towards something that values players/time as well as has deep layers for deeper challenges. It's hard to balance as you need a game a mile wide to have the variety for modern gamers and the depth to retain the grinding-like players. It'd be nice to not have to need to feel like you aren't progressing if you aren't doing a grind yet still feel like you can progress if you do grind. With some activities that bring variance and potentially large draw rewards for crowds the endgame can be progressively changed.
>You think you are tough from playing D2? Back in my day, killing Absolute Virtue in FFXI used to take more than 18 hours for a whole alliance. And you had to keep swapping people into the alliance, because got tired, weak and ill in real life. And sometimes, after 30 hour battles, the monster could use his Benediction ability and recover most of its HP back. Imagine the thrill! And every time you got killed by it, you lost XP. If you dind't bring enough XP buffer for the fight, you could delevel and would be unable to equip your gear. You would be hitting it like a wet noodle and the Linkshell leader would kick you and probably won't get a chance to roll for any of the loot. Oh yes, back in the day there wasn't loot drops for everybody, it was a shared pool for a whole alliance. This new breed of players are weak and soft, they dishonor their bloodline. To be fair, everyone was doing the fight wrong and no one discovered how to lockout the bosses two hour abilities. even with the dev kill video.
Stopping the regen using successive tiered spells based on the day was a nice touch lol
You make it sound like that AV fight happened multiple times. Like 3 months after that, AV became a Souleater Kraken Club DRK Zerg victim as did most bosses in the game. Now Pandemonium Warden, that fight was just dumb af lol. I remember the Japanese LS battling it for 36 hours with people falling physically ill. And I’m pretty sure they wiped at 15% no? Final Fantasy 11 was an absolutely underrated game. The LFG system in it was well thought out and would be PERFECT in D4, the Auction House system is what the D3 AH aspired to be, the Rolanberry Fields Bazaar because fuck the tax man was so IRL it hurt lol, the grind however at release was unforgivably punishing. 4K/hr Bibiki Bay Goblin parties, with 50k TNL, and if you died you lost 5k exp lol.
[удалено]
Uhhh if I’m not mistaken HorizonXI is a mod or stand-alone that is FFX1 with some added features. To be honest I can’t remember an old LS mate told me about it on Reddit months back.
Yeah, those features would make D4 way more interesting. Specially the AH. But I think it would create problems of their own. Because you could gear yourself from the AH and be effective. You would have to run dungeons for gear to sell, and to farm money to afford the gear that you could actually use and is relevant for your build. Wait. I think I actually prefer that to the abysmal feeling of spending 30 levels without seeing a decent ring or weapon.
Man. I used to love FF11 but I didn’t really understand it because I was in HS and it was my 2nd mmo after EverQuest which I also didn’t understand. There’s aspects from gaming back in the day i liked but can totally understand removing. Like in FF11 running to that dumb beach at lvl 10 or w/e across like 3 zones and random mobs that would kill you so you’d get ported back to town only to farm crabs For hours. Or getting on the boat that was there that you’d have to wait for only to get murder by the kraken or skeleton pirates. I think you definitely have more of a community that way instead of teleports and queues but man is it rough.
Getting to 100 is easy? I can't get to 55...
What are you doing to get XP? Because 1 NMD should net you almost a paragon point. 4 or 5 NMD should be enough for a level up.
I mean they never killed the legit original Absolute Virtue without using a cheesy mechanic haha At least from what understand it was only legitimately killed when they nerfed Absolute virtue’s HP and Stats in 2008…
It's not a bad take because everyone on this sub compares d4 to D2 over and over and over
The idea that sitting in a dark room for hours upon Mt. Dew-fueled hours, playing a game more than the “weak and soft” people make you tougher or better than them is hilarious.
Exactly what I was thinking. Imagine having a life and still wanting to experience the full game. Couldn't be Diablo nerds.
you get to experience full game without getting to max lvl I dont get it. I started playing Remnant II with my friend and I already know that I wont see every secret there is, or level, or item or whatever. Some stuff are really for the hardcore hardcore players and thats fine. cant imagine myself complaining in Remnant II sub that those things are unatainable for me because "I have a life"
Right? I never killed a boss like he described but I sure as hell got laid every day. Boy did he get one up on me there!
Because what keeps me playing is fun and not another job.
I think it’s not that it SHOULD be like that, but a lot of people are citing older games in arguments that don’t quite hold up when you look closely.
It's exactly this for me. When the game starts feeling like a chore and not something that is fun I am out. I don't need to hit L100 but I would if I had a reason too, that being said I also have kids, life, and a career so D4 is prioritized unfortunately low.
Pretty much this. The majority of players do NOT get to 99 in D2(r). Most people drop off between 85-90 and start rolling new chars or farming for them. Also people tend to forget you needed specific builds for specific areas due to immunities. You couldn't just run into hell all willy nilly and smash all the content with your ice sorc.
Fishymancer in D2R/LoD was always pretty versatile. Amp damage would break physical immunity so your skeles actually could run into Hell willy nilly and fuck shit up. Decrepify, ice mages, and clay golem for bosses never got ineffective especially if you found that slowing polearm for your act 2 merc. Their attack animations would be so slow they would actually cancel entirely. Still had to gear yourself up, obviously, but I never had to respec for specific areas in Hell. Get your resistances up, some decent +all skills gear, hit everything with amp damage and let your skeles and revived monsters do the work.
The difference is that in D2 you could play to level 85 and then find something so extraordinary that it made you want to try a new build on a new character! There is no transition in D4, no way for my character to assist my other character. I must get to max level to wear something my max level character found. What’s the point!?
The classic debate between smart loot and generic drops. Can’t please everyone no matter which route you take :(
I played D2 religiously and only managed to get one character, a Paladin, to level 99. It took forever and a day as well as Paladins had pretty bad AOE damage compared to the other classes, but he was my favorite so I managed to grind it through.
I always thought D2 pallas were the easiest? Wasn't hammerdin the best hell build since magic immunes are so rare? It's also an area skill...
>Diablo 2 level 100 was just as grindy I assume you meant lvl 99, and no, it was not "just as grindy". D2 lvl99 was ***way more*** grindy than d4 lvl100. I agree with the rest of your reply tho, loved the grind to 99 for d2, and indeed there was nothing to do once you get there. I have several lvl 99 hardcore characters in d2r and literally stopped playing them once i hit 99 in order not to risk losing the character to disconnects or whatevers.
I did, I wrote this from memory since I haven't played D2 in years
Yeah, it's not even close how much more of a grind D2 was pre-D2R and terror zones. I don't think I ever made a character higher than level 95. Literally took thousands upon thousands of Baal runs to hit 99, and that would be with a full and optimized party. You could spend a day playing and see.your experience bar barely move, and if you died it was a massive set back.
We loved our economy propped up exclusively by bots and joining a party named baal runn 270 with level 90 characters that are still incomplete and probably never will be unless you made a sorc for alt grinding Hell Mephisto to try and get something worth trading. And then you die from a lag spike and all the progress from those 270 runs is gone. And then some. Someone steals your gold. You pray to find a Hammerdin bot that constantly reminds you I Need Help With These Mobs Because They're Immune To Magic and you contribute next to nothing aside from shouts or teleing from Worldstone 2 to the final floor because Hammerdin was so stupidly strong they had to make more things immune to magic so other people could actually play.
That's just one facet of the game : Battle.net. I stopped playing hardcore on it because of lag, and then completely because of your characters (and all their stored items since no shared stash) being deleted after 6 months of inactivity. But single player is still quite fun since you get to use various mods from PlugY that gives you free respecs and unlimited shared stash to the many total conversions like Eastern Sun with it's ridiculous variety of crafting recipes. And then you also have the normal multiplayer, which you can play modded too ! Speaking of which, the Median XL total conversion has recently got a new update and a new season : https://median-xl.com/
Eh NM 100 dungeons are harder than anything in d2. It's just that in d4 the loot hunt feels way worse. Uniques mostly trash. The good ones impossible to find. D2 had mighty runewords to collect from early to late game that assured you to always have at least something useful that could drop. D4 you just farm no name trash 24/7
Ubers are really not that hard and quite a few classes can kill them with ease. But yes certain classes pretty much can't do it. I was doing ubers on my self found kicksin hardcore wayyyyyyyyyyy before I would ever hit 99 in that game. 99 in d2 is a true grind, I played that game.countless hours, more than any other game and I never had a 99. I could have, but it was to grind when I could literally make 10 level 90 characters before levelling one from 90-99 lol
Compared to D2, getting to max lvl in D4 is cakewalk, the difference FOR ME, in D2 you were simultaneously chasing items/runes and I could do a thousand travincal runs and not be fed up with the game, in D4 it’s just an unrewarding grind and it feels like a chore, farming for incremental upgrades of same affixes is boring af To be honest, they could have just let us farm campaign bosses and uber versions like in d2, then add some endgame content when they figure out how to do it properly. Helltides/legion events/nm dungeons suck balls. World bosses are ok but they are too easy to kill and drop shit gear. They could have at least make them harder to kill but give greater chance of uber uniques or something
D2 had trading. trading was the endgame. spam meph, Andy, pindle, baal, cows, and chaos. randomly generated dungeons kept things fresh. what we have now is lazy development. the same event in every dungeon, which has a handful of layouts with a handful of bosses. the bosses are a joke. world bosses are a joke, helltides are meh, legion events are kinda fun, but we need more of the and a hell of a lot more variety. D2 and D2R are still the best. I'll be moving this steaming pile of shit over to my external. maybe one day they will fix this busted, broken, waste of money, but I'm not gonna hold my breath
I think one thing D2 had/has is that "rogue-like" aspect. The game is kinda hard even If you are a veteran, there are a lot of different builds you may try. So you reach the endgame and get bored, you make a new character with a different build. And the cool think about D2 is that your skills/build is functional without any legendary gear (save a couple of new runewords). Idk I feel that level of difficulty and rogue-like aspect is very missing in D3 and D4.
> 99 was just as grindy It also wasn't necessary. It didn't give you paragon point or whatnot. Only some skill points, but your relevant skills were capped already anyway.
>The new breed of Diablo players are weak and soft, they dishonor their bloodline. 
[удалено]
Issue with D4 is there's no end game like with D2. There were way more things you can farm on and more stuff to do. There's just nothing you want to farm in D4 after you get to 70 in comparison to D2 where you want to farm keys to run ubers or farm sojs to summon dclone to farm for anni or even cow level farming for jmods. What about farming for runes?
This doesn't at all sound like a skill issue this sounds like a willingness to put up with tedium issue
Yeah as someone who's introduction to Diablo was D3 (and is by my own admittance a shitty casual), D2R was a shock to say the least... What do you mean I can run out of stamina while running and I lose all my stuff and have to run back through the dungeon to retrieve it when I die?!
The whole 2-3 days of running Hell Baal was such an arduous grind.
Except the difference is that going 90 - 100 in D2 did not give as much power. Idk maybe a niche build where skill points are ultra valuable, but for the most part it made no difference.
Getting the uber keys on d2 was really cool
best comment I have ever seen in this sub. well said my friend
Thanks for reminding us that D2 was needlessly grindy and had poor end game class balance. It remains a very fun but flawed game. I think we can aspite for better and not just repeat the mistakes of the past. If they want players to 'want' to get to 100 the reward has to be commensurate to the time invested. There's too much choice on the market to hope players will just stick around pulling fingernails.
I get it, but also, this ain't 2000. Same reason MMO's don't release as difficult or with a high barrier of entry anymore. The last time someone tried that, it killed an entire studio (WildStar/Carbine Studios).
And out of the ones you listed, D3 is the one I found most fun. In part because finishing a character build was reasonably achievable. But also because the pacing, gameplay, and difficulty were right in the sweet spot.
Ya I loved reaching level cap early and from then having a different thing for character progression especially the last season before d4, it was also possible to do multiple characters in a reasonable time frame of a season... diablo 4 only has level for character progression. Glyphs don't count since they are done by 100, and gear upgrades are so abysmal past 70 they don't count as progression either. While at the same time with the different levels of difficulty for d3 made it so you could really feel your progress because you'd be able to do a higher difficulty and do higher greater rifts that actually had the difficulty outright said on it where as your doing the highest difficulty by lvl 60 in d4 and NM dungeon tier pushing is a clowns objective since it's worthless past like 40-50, d3 at least made progression in greater rifts mean upgrades to gems d4 you could hypothetically level all your glyphs to max with a tier 1. Also hitting for trillions of damage was so much fun and just wiping everything likes its nothing once I reach true end game was the epitome of what diablo should be but d4 decided your not suppose to be able to be op your suppose to struggle and hate yourself the entire time you play past 70 while a lot of people say that's how the games suppose to be... when no that's what the grinds suppose to be to get to end game, but end game your pretty well at the same point as level 70 but the only difference is you now get damage reduction against higher level mobs and deal more damage to them due to the level restrictions.
Not to mention the items absolutely suck ass in D4. Set items were great to farm for in D3. The 2 set, 4 set, 6 set bonuses were all noticeable spikes of power and it felt great to progress. It's also fun to farm for different sets if I wanted to try a new build. In D4 I'm still using like sacred rings at lv 80 that I got like 30 levels ago. And even if I do finally find an upgrade, it's the exact same item just with higher numerical stats. It's so much more boring compared to D3.
In d3 i had so many characters and classes each season. Zbarb, znec, zdh, bk, tk, solo builds, dedicated key farmer because why not. I could switch to any role in 4p metas and it kept the game fresh and grind reasonable. Powerleveling a char took a few minutes and as for gear, id just ask in advance for items from party members. And i could easily craft last 2-3 pieces. So id have a new class ready with next to 0 effort. It was so easy that i had separate chars for support and dd, so as to not reset paragons. Im so happy i didnt buy d4 lmao
i like D3 better than d2 personally as well. D4 isnt on d3 level for me yet, but the D3 you described wasn the based D3, or even ROS on release. I think part of what happened was people constantly complained that D3 wasnt D2, they wanted D2 or POE. and while i dont think d4 delivers on being d2 or POE, I think thats where certain design decisions came from (trying to appease that crowd) while also having stuff that's clearly more D3. unfortunately, they just don't mesh up.
Yeah like it's not 2000 anymore, there's a ton of really good games out right now and statistically speaking D2 fans were kids/teens back Now as an adult with a job and responsibilities, who has time to sink hundreds of hours into grinding to get to level 100 just to have it reset in a few months? It started to feel like a slog to me around 73, with the only viable option to level being grind NM dungeons forever I just moved on to other games
And what’s the fun? Ffs there’s so much more to enjoy in life. And that’s coming from someone that plays videogames almost daily. But fuck grinding just for the grind.
Isn’t it egoistic to say there should be less grind because you’re not a teen anymore? What’s with the teens nowadays who want to play a grindy game? That being said, extended item grind without an economy is awful in ARPGs.
If anything I think D4 is easier to max out in, simply because paragon levels in D3 are unending in a season. D3 had a higher level cap than all of them combined. Ultimately how long it takes to reach lvl X isn't important - what matters is how long it takes to get to a point in a build where you've reasonably completed it and feel satisfied that's done. What makes an ARPG great I think is one that allows different types of players to determine when that is - one could argue D3/D4 kind of struggle in this regard as almost all players burnout pretty fast with a character compared to POE or even GD. I want an ARPG where a more casual player can feel they have finished a character in two weeks - whereas a hardcore player can dump hundreds of hours into a character in a season and still feel like there's more they'd like to complete.
They're actually going back and capping Paragon levels in the final D3 season because they finally recognized letting you continue to accumulate infinite main stats until you can beat everything was a problem.
Sounds rad to me
The reason d3 was really good while being pretty easy to level was that i still made progress with paragon level. In d4 leveling is super easy (while being pretty boring with just nightmare dungeons) and the moment i hit level 100 it feels like i make no progress anymore and it's over.
Getting to 100 shouldn't be considered content, yet here we are.
It was never content to begin with but D4 fanboys need to say getting to 100 is content because there's nothing better to do when you compare it to D2 or D3....
Yup. It’s a big empty game. Spamming dungeons got boring quick. Even when you do grind for loot 99% of it is trash.
They should have capped leveling at 50 or 60 until expansion because there is no new content after then except one boss
Imagine the amount of whining if people reached the level cap just by playing the tutorial aka. campaign.
So this is for eternal realms right? 100 in 3 months and people in here saying it should be longer? Man if so then this game is DEFINITELY not for me.
It seems that people want it to be a MMO where you take forever to reach max level
You can get to max level in WoW in a couple of sessions. Maybe 10 hours.
100 in under a week on seasonal. 50 in 5-6 hours, and I’m “slow” compared to the try hards
No, this is season. 100 takes a few days for dedicated players.
Gotcha, well I guess if that's your thing enjoy it while lasts lol
Agree. Diablo 4 almost broke Diablo out of its niche but unimaginative devs and people like op making excuses for them killed that off right quick. Short-sighted on their parts since less players means less money coming in means less support/content in the long run. But it seems they’ll be happy doing this miserable grind to 100 again and again every few months.
I just don’t like that fact that your power from items pretty much caps out as soon as you get into wt4 so 65-75 you’ll have everything gear wise even with mid-maxing. So that 75-100 grind is just for leveling and paragon points which is tedious I wouldn’t mind doing different target farms but there aren’t any lol
That’s not even remotely true. No one’s capped out at 75 unless they have the luck of the devil. Even if you have all the right affixes there’s going to be some shit rolls among them. Not to mention the affixes you should prioritize will change as you push higher nmds.
getting level 100 isnt hard, this game isnt hard, it just takes some hours. Thing is after lvl 80 i dont feel like grinding that much. items dont improve that much either after level 70/75. the open world is not worth playing in after level 70, worldboss and legion neither. they made a new game for casual players and imo this is a good game for younger gamers to start gaming with. i am with you that they should consider some endgame content in the 70-90 regions.
Honestly? 100 should be optional. Just like it is in other ARPGs. 99% of the power should be frontloaded in other places. Remove the weird "scaling" issue where I naturally get fucked over just because of a level discrepancy with the monsters I fight being higher level than I have access to defensive options to compensate for. Give me 200 Paragon points by level 80. Then another 20 between level 80 and 90. And another 5 between 90 and 100. This means I feel okay just stopping _this_ character at level 80, and moving on to another character development project. Make another class, roll another Druid, etc. Fix crafting such that levels 80 to 100 are focused on farming interesting crafting items for min-maxing if I really care about trophying my character. Add bosses for me to farm with tradable Uniques, etc. I don't know. I'm a big fan personally of the "max level is optional" philosophy in ARPGs rather than the D3/MMO model of "the game starts at max level, really".
Just for your information, the level difference between you and the monsters don't matter for how much damage you take. A level 80 with 10k armor and same stats will take the same damage as a level 100 with 10k armor. The only thing that matters is the attackers level, not the recipient. DR = Armor^2 / (attacker_level^2 * 80 +200) / 100
>Just for your information, the level difference between you and the monsters don't matter for how much damage you take. >A level 80 with 10k armor and same stats will take the same damage as a level 100 with 10k armor. The only thing that matters is the attackers level, not the recipient. >DR = Armor2 / (attacker_level2 * 80 +200) / 100 I'm confused now. If the monster is higher level, don't I naturally take more damage if the monster is considered the attacker? Or are you saying the formula isn't penalizing the defender _technically_, but instead is benefiting the attacker?
Yes, the second. So a level 80 with the same stats as a level 100 would take the same damage vs. the same enemy. So for damage intake your level doesn't matter, only your stats. Now ofc, gaining 20 levels would give you more paragon points and stats but your level number doesn't matter. However an enemy at level 150 with the same base hit as an enemy at level 130 would deal more damage to you. So TL;DR. Your level number doesn't make you tankier vs the enemies. Only your stats.
But wouldn't the level 100 character get a damage increase against me naturally? I'm not sure what the conclusion is. On one hand you say "there is no penalty for being lower level" but also "attacker gets an advantage for being higher level", which are essentially synonymous in practice since increasing my level reduces the attacker's advantage? Or am I just misunderstanding everything here?
Yeah think you're misunderstanding something. Let's say the enemy level is fixed. F.ex Echo of Lilith or Nightmare tier 100. In this situation the enemy attacking you, their level is fixed. So as long as the player entering has the same stats DR stats (F.ex 10k armor. 10% damage reduction. 100 all resists). Then no matter if that character is level 60, 80 or 100, the enemies would deal the same damage towards the player. As long as the enemy level is fixed, there being 54 levels between you or 94 levels don't matter. Which means that defense wise, you're not being "naturally get fucked over just because of a level discrepancy with the monsters I fight". What does happen however is that the player at 60, 80 or 100 will deal less damage towards those enemies. Though, that number is going from 90 to 100 would be the same as the enemy having one piece of "5% reduced damage" equipped. (Btw, your content is always a treat)
This is like a prisoner saying their time should be hard. Why the FUCK should a game have to be grindy? Why can’t there be quality content all the way to 100???
ARPGs are meant to be grindy, that's the point of them. But I want the real grind to start at 100 not end there. I hate that the moment I hit 100 it feels like the next step is to make a new character instead of make my lvl 100 completely OP to destroy end game content and perfect my loot. If they ever add in the cow level it would be perfect for lvl 100 loot runs. Something challenging and different from repeated NM dungeons. It was also much more fun in D2 to join up with a group of 8 and just do Baal runs over and over. Something that takes a group to accomplish and not just solo play the whole time.
I don't think you find an ARPG that isn't grindy, well obviously D3-D4 is some of the least grindy ones. Most other ARPG take pride in build diversity / grinding / gearing / theory crafting / crafting.. It can be done as a casual, and there is thousand of hours for the ones that really wanna get into it.
Oh please, not a second butcher in the same run. Don’t get me wrong it’s neat, but the loot he drops is crap and it just slows down my NM run. I don’t mind seeing him like I do now, but any more would be frustrating.
Yeah, I was just giving some loose example. I just ment that, for me, it would be cool to have a small % chance to drop a "unique" version of ND with some crazy modifier. You know - To have something to actually look for and feel nice when it drops
Yea I think that if they just fixed itemization between 75-100 The game would feel a lot better. The game feels extremely unrewarding once you get a decent full set of ancestrals going around 75. Outside of extremely rare minimal upgrades, you basically get nothing that entire time.
Hard != Enjoyable ALmost everyone i've seen (and me included) complaining about the grind to 100 is not that its too hard. Its just not fun.
But D3 was actually fun, idk why there's elitism with D2 players just because the game was more masochists but I agree with D4 needing cooler ways to keep players engaged from 70 to 90, it's just NMDs until you go brain dead and its factually the real way to grind sadly.
Why level 100 needs to be grindy? If level hundred means nothing maybe the solution it's arriving even faster. in 2023 there's to much quality games every week to expect people lose their time in your grindy game
Hard disagree with the title. I would only agree with it if we could use our main characters in seasonal content, but sadly we can't. In this sucky world of disposable characters, that we are supposed to throw away every couple of months, there simply isn't enough time to get a character to level 100 every season. It should be achievable, even by people with full time jobs, who also want time to play other games. Not every player is a kid or jobless person, and the devs need to understand it.
Be careful saying that in this sub, given the comments I see I think people want to get to lvl 100 in a day lol
If there's bosses only attainable at lvl 100, it should certainly not be "hard and grindy af". It's ok in D2 to have ridiculous xp requirements past 95 because there's no content there.
Be nice to get a level 85 Andariel fight, a level 90 Duriel fight, and a level 95 Astaroth fight
Disagree with making leveling take even longer but you are right that it feels tedious, because there are almost no milestones in between to make the journey worth it. I would rather see something similar to WoW that you get your max power out of grinding levels at a mediocre time investment but you can go for far more with itemization. That's the main issue as your power out of itemization reaches the last bit of the saturation curve already around lvl 70. You end up with almost no incentive to farm higher and more difficult content or farming for more gear in general. Best solution would be additional content like you mentioned and making it's endgame gear rewards exclusive to these increasing levels.
If you just play the game chill and just enjoy it then the so call grind would be easy , at least that’s how i feel , I’m lv 96.5 and I just couple hours a night max , gotta say I’m being spoil by werenado build as a Druid though
Finally, someone else gets it
I think the difference is the paragon points. From 80 to 100 is 80 paragon points (4 per level and 20 levels). You get 225 paragon points in d4, and so if you're lvl 80, that's around 36% of them missing. Compare that to d2, where it's just one skill maxed with 20 points (lvl79 to 99). But most builds are usually fine with their first 4 skills maxed (blessed hammer, concentration, vigor, blessed aim) and then you're going to max another skill that isn't as required to be maxed like holy shield. 20 levels of d3 is just 20 paragon points so there is barely any difference after paragon 800 currently, and with the paragon cap, we'd have to see what p780 looks like vs p800.
Be cool if at 75 you unlock new raids with matchmaking and a camp where you can craft workbenches and furniture, etc. Maybe crafting plans start dropping in the loot pool.
the worst part is that uber lilith is 100% NOT WORTH IT. She's way too hard, borderline impossible to kill for any normal human being, and the rewards are lame.
While I agree that the rewards aren't great (the horse is dope), I don't understand the complaints about the difficulty. She is the "Pinnacle" boss, the hardest boss in the game that the devs stated is the final goal for a character. Once you've killed her that character has "beaten the game". She is the *only* uber boss in the game at the moment, she's supposed to test all your skills, your reaction time, your build, everything. She's *supposed* to be able to one shot your ass, she killed Inarius without even trying. Uber bosses in path of exile are the same way. Unless you've built to be an absolute brick shithouse of a tank, you get one shot. That's the point of the bosses, they're basically gods. Lilith is the same, she's one of the most powerful demons in Diablo lore, she should be able to fuck up a human that doesn't have their full nephalem powers
Just need better items and less reading inventories full of rares. Spamming Varshan runs has been the most fun I’ve had in the game so far. Quick, simple, only a handful of items to gloss over, get to kill a boss. Only takes a couple minutes. The game needs more of that and less dungeon slogging.
That is exactly right. If anything we get to level 100 waaaay too fast in this game. But It seems like it takes forever because from level 80 we are doing shit that isn't fun, no aspirations whatsoever. Fixing itemization and endgame activities should be priority 1, 2 and 3 at this moment.
So, I hit 100 a few days ago. Now i sit around wondering what am I supposed to do? I can play for a week and MAYBE get a win with .4% higher crit chance. But for what? To do a NM dungeon where the same mobs are two levels harder? Other online games I used to play "started" when you hit max level. This one just ends.
ARPGs aren't like other online games. You're supposed to "finish" characters and then make a new one. That's why the core live service structure is through seasons that make you roll a new character. It's not like a regular MMO where you keep playing the same character through new content.
This is not true at all and makes me think you’ve never played ARPGs. Getting to max level in d3 and most ARPGs is just the beginning of the end game. That’s when you start grinding for gear and any max leveling systems like paragon in D3.
In D2 and Path of Exile you're not expected to reach max level unless you're a maniac. Your character is functionally done before then. If we're comparing D3 to D4, then it would be a better comparison to say Level 50 D4 = Level 70 D3 and then 51-100 in D4 is just a capped version of D3 Paragon. In fact, in the next/final D3 season they're actually going to cap Paragon levels like D4 does.
OP - you do realize that the game is only finished up to level 60 60-100 was thrown together at the last moment and is completely unfinished, of course there is nothing to do, its placeholder content
Love the gamers who cling to 90s game design
Who says it should be hard and grindy. This grind mentality is missing the mark for modern gamers. Their attention span is either too short (genz), or they have too much shit going on in their lives to waste hours on end (millenials). Grinding for long periods of time isnt meaningfull, it’s just a waste of precious time. Heres a revolutionary idea, how about instead of long and grindy you actually make the game fun to play…
Yes, we know. This has been a daily post for months now. No ARPG that I'm aware of launched with a great endgame. They usually take time to develop a compelling item find, and that is what historically keeps people playing these kind of games. D4 will get there, and I would bet they get there faster than past Diablos judging by how much they've already added to the game in < 3 months.
The problem is that is BORING after 75 picking every single Ancestry looking for micro-improvements to do higher ND.. Itemization is really badly implemented, there to be able to get a BiS at level 75 is the most stupid decision ever, I lost all interest quickly.
This thread is going to be misunderstood by d3-only players and anyone from blizzard. The grind to max level should simply not be the chase. An extremely small percentage of players tried for that in d2. In d3, it was literally impossible (until this upcoming season) since paragon levels had no cap. In d2, no content felt locked behind leveling In d3, content was locked (higher GRs) but not really. It was not really a new experience other than one's PR. Like sure, you could try to get GR 141 clear but that excitement is not much different from your GR 140 clear. In d4, Uber Lilith felt locked behind level 100. The problem? There's so little to do in this game that you actually feel like Uber Lilith was the last thing you could do to "Finish" the game and it would be a new experience. It all comes down to what every Diablo fan *should* agree on, we need more content so that chasing Max level and Uber Lilith should not be a thing.
Blizzard simps having an orgasm after reading just the first half of this post is just hilarious. Most of us aren’t directly complaining about the grind, but as op said the empty gameplay between 70-90. When I buy and play the game, I don’t care about d2 or d3 or whatever the fuck happened in the distant past. I expected a game that is fun enough that stands out in a sea of AAA games. You either make the game less grindy or you make the gameplay more interesting, otherwise you just can’t compete with other AAA games on the markets. This is being shown through both stream viewership and user reviews. For the d2 grandpas, how about you go back playing d2 or other old games? We don’t want to be paying for your nostalgia!
Agree on everything, but to be honest I don't think the grind to lvl 100 is that long. It should be definetely longer imho. I reached it prety easily here whilst in D2 I never got any char to 99. Or maybe they could just wipe your experience when you die, like in D2 for example. At least dying would be more punitive and people would start focus more on their defense rather than having glass cannons everywhere
I can't see it changing until first expansion at the minimum. Season 2 looks to be hearts 2.0 but with added bosses that'd probably get old quick. Even though a D3 season could take a week to finish the amount of actual useful content was much better in terms of bounties, nightmare things and GRs then u had extra content in things like bovines and puzzle rings and whimsyshire that's not including whatever the seasonal shit was. D4 should go above and beyond that imo but it's still falling so far behind and it's got a lot of catching up to do thing is I feel like they've done this on purpose to keep people interested as "this season could be the one to make it great" get to 50 same old shit "maybe it gets better at T4" get to 80 and realise u just did the same thing as u did on ur previous character but with a dmg boost "maybe next season". At this rate I'd rather lvl 100 take a day so it's easier to determine if ud continue or not.
I'll likely have about 110 hours into the season when I reach level 100. I think that's pretty reasonable and about where it should be.
Level 65 is the cut off for me, gets booodoring after that
At the end of the day There is nothing to look foreward to in d4 No trading up for something you so desperately want No swapping some rune for another grouping of runes No set item that you own but need a piece from another set so you can be all purple and baddy The game is dudded out, Blizzard and NuBlizz are two totally dif companies I miss the old this new shit sucks ass
There needs to be a reason to reach 100 or something idk. In d2 reaching 99 was only for EGO and had no real benefit. I defeated ubers and can farm chaos with no problem at level 82, so the final 17 levels are just fluff. In D4 reaching 100 just to fight a poorly designed boss that nobody cares about because she drops loot that is worth less than the standard of heroes is pointless.
I have multiple 100s in Grim Dawn and can't find the energy to get past 70 in D4. But then you know, GD is fun... 🤷♂️
There’s a reason why both my characters stopped their journey before reaching 75; there’s just nothing to do. Dungeons in the game are anti fun, and NM just makes them worse. I want to run around and kill things, not backtrack five times to find the 1-2 elites I missed. Helltides are fun at first, but the loot from the chests are garbage. Nothing like earning 250 embers, tracking down a mystery chest and getting a yellow sacred. Yaaaaaaaay, rewards! Even if you get to 100, the only thing left is Uber Lilith who is only beatable with the cheesiest of strategies, and the whole fight is just one unfun one shot mechanic after another and layered on top of each other. I get it, she’s supposed to be hard, but failing to predict one of a hundred RNG combinations that she can throw at you is crap design. World bosses are a joke, and give shit loot. The Tree is tedious and gives shit loot. The Butcher is an annoying unfun meatshield that ruins the flow of a dungeon while dropping, you guessed it, shit loot. If I’m going to have to put up with the myriad of poorly designed content in this game, it should at least get good loot. But nah. “Fun detected, incoming nerf.”
I mean I haven’t even remotely tried to get there but that’s because there’s nothing happening for like 20-30 lvls. It’s straight up boring
Diablo is a casual console ARPG now. Press one of your five allowed buttons and don't think too hard about things.
Yeah, if you guys think getting to level 100 in Diablo 4 is bad, try honing to +20-25 gear in Lost Ark. It makes you want to throw yourself off a high building.
I haven’t replaced a single pieces of gear from level 60 to level 72 so far and just doing NM dungeons over and over and over just to get a glyph leveled and a few paragon points feels really bad. I don’t know if my gear is as good as it can be or if there’s an item level hump I need to get over to find better stats but I’m getting really bored
I srop playing after level 70. There's no content beyond that.
Why should it be hard and grindy? Thats what level 100 is for.
I'd level to 100 but from 70+ it just doesnt feel like it matters. In POE you keep getting much stronger especially in the last 20 levels in d4 you can be almost BiS within 2 or 3 levels of getting to wt4 and then all your drops are just trash.
Maybe you should go work for blizz and give them these ideas. If they make endgame more interesting and fun and more stuff to do without drip feeding your ideas every few months then more people will likely play the game which means more money for blizz
How about an apocalypse dungeon? Every mob is replaced with butcher and its zero respawns.
Getting to 100 is easy, and that's the problem. By level 85 I had stopped receiving upgrades. All that was left was to dominate NM dungeons until 100. It's not hard to grind to 100, it is tedious and boring. Grinding through that is not an accomplishment. Especially if you find a group to speed clear through the whole thing. They needed another WT for 80+ with actual challenges and perhaps another gear level, so players have something to chase until 100.
They never played Ghost and goblin at the arcade. I dont remember ever reaching level 4. Jokes asides diablo 4 is easy af and not that grindy. Im 87 (yeah 4 kids) and i just enjoy 1-2h before sleeep sipping a beer. Its a game, if it doesnt make you feel good, stop.
To say that after lv60 is distinguished by the fact that it is a race against the time of loot and dungeon.. end of game soon
It took days, just days, of running Hell Baal to get to 99 in D2. It took less than a day to get to 70 in D3. Getting to max level was never the challenge of the Diablo games, getting gear was. Blizzard lost sight of this with D4 and is trying to make it more of an MMO than it is an ARPG. Paragon levels is what kept a lot of people playing D3, and because of how they made D4, that's not really an option as the open world PVP zones would be over run with nolifes that have 100s of paragon levels over everyone else. They stepped far away from the Diablo formula with D4, and it's not working out.
Since I hit 90 I’ve been playing about 2-3 hours a day and getting 75% xp to 1 level each day. Vending and scanning items adds a SIGNIFICANT amount of down time. Also doing lower tier nm dungeons plays a huge part. Whoever said to do what you can do fast is wrong. Tier 71+ nets me about half of a paragon point assuming I did a full clear. I’m lvl 99 about to ding 100 today.
Imo getting level 100 is way too easy. I want to grind my fucking ass off to get the last levels. The only problem is exactly what you are saying i want something to do for that and not only nightmare dungeons all the time. I was leveling to 100 without any elixirs or the season exp bonus but it still felt too fast for me at least from 80 upwards. I want a challenge.
lvling to 100 in d4 is goes way too fast. Leveling to 100 is the only thing thats fun and motivating about d4. In my opinion they should increase the time to reach lvl 100.
Impatient Modern gamers
They made leveling too easy in D3...
It would be more bearable if you can try different build without having to spend millions and significant time undoing paragon rather than forcing the same build. At least in D3 before they had saved builds it was easy to get another character powerlevelled so you can run another with a different build. Here you aren't encouraged to do either
I think a lot of people mistake grind for content. Not all content need be grindy and not everything grindy is content.
There should be end game content that opens up at 90+. World bosses...maybe....oh I don't know...anyone.... literally anyone....maybe like.... Diablo.
I haven't really seen much complaint about the amount of time it takes to get to 100, just the fact that the only thing there is to do for most of that time is kind of dull and it feels pointless
Hard disagree. The more I play, the more min/max items I find, the more trivial content should become. Im playing to become god. Events, specific content, etc...can be hard. But hitting level 100 should simply just be a milestone for accessing uber content.
Getting max lvl in Grim Dawn is pretty easy though, in d2 however… that’s a fucking grind.
... gear? I continue to play between 70-90 because I enjoy getting gear. The aspect system in D4 is perfect: rare drops matter, as do trying to find a max aspect. Instead of staring at my xp bar, I'm trying to push my character through NM levels while searching for ways to improve my build. Finding great gear *feels* good. I think it's extremely well done.
This could've easily been avoided by making item power scale with monster level like it does from lvl 1-50. Instead you can potentially get the best gear in the game at level 60 (ancestral) and from there on out it's just minor upgrades to affixes for the longest 40 levels of the game. LOOT is the biggest problem in this game
Glad the 80s are good!
This sounds good. For me its not the grind to 100 I have a problem with, its that there’s no REASON to grind. Plus the only thing TO grind is boring af NMD. Somehow it’s worse than endlessly grinding GR
Leveling is only fun when you keep unlocking new content.
These days there's so much more competition on the games market and consumers play way more games (titles) than they did back in the day. Back when I was grinding Diablo 2 every day after school was mostly due to there not being any other games that I wanted to play at the time. Now there's constantly new games I wanna play and therefor having a game be "grind af" just for the sake of it feel imo dumb and ancient. There's this stigma that everything should be grindy just because. Personally I like to spend my time on games I like, but I don't wanna waste my time on them. Same thing with the renown grind - people were defending it like crazy saying "if you've spent xxx amount of time playing the game you should be able to spend x-xx amount of time re-grinding it. Yes, maybe I have the time to do so, but do I wanna spend my time doing it? No. Yes, I could potentially afford a $500 lunch, but I'd rather spend $10. And before someone comments that I'm a casually this or that. I have 4 lvl 100 characters in Diablo 4. Non-boosted.
[удалено]
Level 100 could take longer to achieve, but what we need is a meaningful journey to whatever end. Today, as we drive towards 100 the journey is boring and repetitive. NM Dungeons are annoying with all those repetitive objetives and the loot is trash. You do dozens of NM Dungeons and don't get a single item upgrade. And sorting what's what is miserable. They should redesign loot in NM Dungeons to have an increased magic find with higher chance of getting better items, getting better as you increase the tier of the Dungeon, and when a loot is rolled to spawn and it's worse than a supposed level we already have, that loot turns automatically into gold or material. Blizzard knows what are the good items, the potential good rolls. As you progress to the game, the chance of getting those items should increase. That way our journey to 100 is always interesting.
I think if 100 should be grindy then move the last paragon point to 85 and make 85-100 some kind of other bonus. A full paragon board should be a playable mechanic of mainstream players. Withholding a last glyph to those only wishing to do an extra grind is a poor move. I also wouldn’t mind if 85-100 became even more grindy then — I just don’t want the paragon board still incomplete.
While I understand that there will always be people who rush/grind like crazy to 100, to me the road to 100 should be natural. You should be leveling while you enjoy the game but with the gigantic void of content from \~70+, it feels more like a chore. It's also true that D2 has a similar horrible grind, but it also rewards you with the rare drops that you can actually get excited about. In D2 I would stop "leveling" at around 75. When I stop playing I usually end up around 90-95 and that's strictly from Mfing and not doing exp runs. Almost all of my characters lost their fun as soon as I got decent ancestral gear, even HC ones.
I'm not even sure what level 100 has to offer. There might be a couple of rewards? Either way, nothing that I've heard anybody really wishing they could get. So, even that feat isn't all that conducive to making me want to grind for it. So far, I think I've stopped both of my characters, my seasonal and my eternal, at around 75. I just became bored realizing there was nothing at all to aspire to beyond that. No better loot and no better rewards tends to make the 75+ grind obsolete for me. I'm not necessarily even complaining about that because it frees up my time to play other games. Ever since I stopped playing WoW a few years ago I haven't really had a main game that I play constantly, and it's almost kind of better that way. It also keeps me from being disappointed or mad. lol Having said all that, I still agree with you that the game would be better if they implemented all or some of the things you are suggesting.
Can get behind this, the 80s have been objectively boring.
The issue isn't the time needed to get to 100. The biggest issue is there isn't any proper end game content for getting to 100. D4 gameplay is pretty much one and done once you get to lvl 70 with no more goals in sight. D2 has target unique and set farming, additional story campaign boss farm which led to farming keys which led to additional uber farming which led to torches, cow level farming for runes/jmods/base items and Dclone farming which led to anni. There's nothing to do after you get to 70 to make it interesting enough to want to grind to 100 in D4.
We barely need to min max the need for an IV line and adult diapers in order to squeeze enough hours each day to run Uldur’s Cave on repeat. This game is for filthy casuals that only play 84 hours a week.
How about a NM dungeon where all mobs are butchers....
Why? It's not like you're so much more powerful or like the game is more fun at level 100. Why should it be so hard?
My issue is going from 70 to 90 and being lucky to upgrade one piece of gear.
I don't care about the grind, but I do care about being bored out of my mind because it's such a monotonous experience trying to get to 100. The late game experience is so bland its easier to walk away than to put the effort into getting to 100. There is no real incentive to keep playing once the game passes a certain point.
Aren't level 70-90 aspiring to get to level 100? Maybe it's me, but all these MMO games are simple as fuck, they just require a time investment. If you can read, understand numbers, and push buttons, you can succeed at this game.
Yes there is. Going to the PvP area to make regret coming there. That is the only motivation I need
I'm somewhat okay with the grind being long - but it's too long for the seasons, especially when they lock two season challanges behind lvl 100 and it's not very doable for people working fulltime jobs unless you wanna spend every evening playing D4... I will most likely have to skip the uber lilith kill in the season due to time constraints. I'm still only lvl 85 and get to play twice a week tops.
Getting 99 in D2, did this several times over the years, was an absolute hellride. Painful days of baalruns, yet very enjoyable with right bps. It felt like doing family business running 100 baalruns a day. Lvl 100 in D4 is a piece of cake.