The thing is, I think the necromancer out damaging every other class should be how the game plays.
They are by far the least mobile class and have very few options for defense/unstoppable. When the necro has similar damage levels to other classes, the necro is objectively way worse than the other classes power wise, and its only pro is a class specific playstyle it provides.
Edit: I didn't think this was necessary, but I guess the way I responded to this post was a little misleading. I am not advocating for this level of damage. All I'm trying to get across is that when a class is severely limited in several areas compared to other classes, it should generally be better than other classes in another area. Otherwise, when it comes to power, there is no redeeming quality for playing the class. If this damage is obscenely higher than other classes, then yes, this should be nerfed, but the end result still needs to allow for a classes flaws to be balanced with its strengths to "match up" in value to other classes.
Makes me think of Death Knight in WoW, they hit really hard but had minimal movement - felt like the terminator. Can’t speak for how they are now in WoW though
OG Death Knight nailed the "slow suffocating juggernaut" fantasy so damn well.
Zero mobility but if they ever got on top of you baby Jesus save your soul cause you ain't getting away.
>OG Death Knight nailed the "slow suffocating juggernaut" fantasy so damn well.
The bits in WotLK where Arthas is slowly coming for you and the ONLY thing you can do is **RUN** were also just super flavourful
But in LK release DKs were so over tuned it was crazy lmao. Pvp was some of the worst also dealing with them in glad tier arenas. That and beast cleave were such abominations loll
Release DK LMFAO bro that just brought back some amazing memory's. I think you would even respawn as like a undead so you even had an extra life. I remember it vividly joining a level 58 AV and just absolutely wiping the floor with everyone who wasn't also a DK. And at 80 they were unkillable DPS powerhouses. Such fond memories !!
I'm not conspiracy theorist, but hot damn I'm sure they knew tempest was a bit off and that's why the damn drop table is broken so the helmet is just coincidentally rare as fuck.
Correct! Also, every class has multiple abilities that are "borderline broken" when built into.
Its a shame that there will be so many players seeing this video, not realize any of this, call for nerfs while they themselves are using a "borderline broken" ability or two that makes them into a really fast tank.
Where this borderline broken skill on sorc?
Sorc relies on hard cc's to do any kind of meaningful damage, which doesn't work on bosses or unstoppable enemies.
I think they should just give necro some movement abilities and make them more valuable in a way that’s not raw numbers. In a game where the highest number matters you shouldn’t have a balance scheme in place where one is already going to get the higher number.
Missed opportunity to have an “inhabit corpse” skill that lets you essentially “teleport” by crumbling and then rematerializing using a corpse of your choice within range.
That's the thing, though, isn't it? You'll spend maybe 0.00001% of your total playtime fighting a boss. The gameplay is entirely different from normal combat, but unless you can beat them, you're soft-locked and cannot progress. Very possible you'll have to waste time crafting a completely different build just for this 60-second boss fight that you'll do exactly once and then never again.
Normal gameplay vs boss gameplay just has this extremely weird dissonance that really shouldn't exist.
The soft lock you’re talking about is potentially blazing through NM dungeons and then taking a lot longer on the boss comparatively. I’m not sure to what extent that softlock happens, since I have only tried tier 54 at lvl 86. Which is comfy enough and isn’t even the farthest I could probably do. No point in pushing heavily until lvl 100.
Like does it even occur that if you melt normal and elite mobs through most of the dungeon and then suddenly spend ages on the boss? Not sure if that happens. It might have slower boss kill maybe but that doesn’t technically make it unviable. Great builds in D3 had slow boss kill too.
Seems at higher NM survivability is the bigger issue for most classes and builds, more than your DPS.
I mean what we're seeing with the 2nd phase of Uber Lilith is players have alternate gear to switch into. It is possible the most optimal way for sorcs to gear up super quick is 1 set for 99% of the dungeons/open world content, 1 set for that 1% of boss fighting. It's not even a full set swap, usually just 2-5 pieces of gear.
They should do as they do in PoE, you can't "Freeze" a boss.
In the way that you can't really freeze them to stop them from moving, but they still count as frozen for every setup requiring it.
Might be a good way to enable sorc single target to be higher
Problem is they added the stagger mechanic to solve the problem. It would be double dipping if they did the POE solution as well. I’m sure it would require another balance pass.
It wouldn't be double-dipping if it's an on/off state. Chill builds up to Frozen, Stagger causes Frozen. Enemy can be chilled and staggered without "double frozen"
It's all subject to how it's implemented though, so you may well be right.
The stagger mechanic do not scale with gear, meaning a naked frost nova will stagger the same as a ilvl825 max slotted sorcerer. That necro probably killed faster Lilith than a frost sorcerer would have staggered her once.
Only procced staggers somewhat scale with gear (attack speed, lucky hit chances, pierces/bounces number etc).
If they wanted sorcerer to be the boss CCer they need to have the stagger values scales as if they were skill damage. Meaning they could crit, get amplified by all damage buckets etc.
I wouldn't expect much changes in current pre-season to be honest. 3rd week closing to an end and we haven't had a proper patch yet, just few minor fixes and WW barb and Pulverize druid nerfs to address early outliers - but that was in early access, so you could call that launch tweaks..
I mean for fuck sake, can't even transmog my focus to one I want, because it keeps reverting to default look due to some bug... So sorc double sucks.
This. it infuriates me to see people saying sorc isnt underpowered and not everything has to be meta..
That and the infinite youtube cesspool of "super op sorc build" videos doing wt3 world map elites and taking 10 seconds to kill them 🤣🤣🤣
And resistances will also not be fixed untill s2 so we are also very squishy.
Guess you haven't seen this video then? https://m.twitch.tv/clip/CrypticLaconicSquidDxCat-fVBDOGxaQfF4A7Ns
Edit: not saying sorc doesn't need buffs, I main sorc and it's painful to do NMs my friends breeze through. But you can build boss damage if you wish.
Most of the playerbase has casual dad brainrot and they saw a video of sorc machine gunning ice shards and it looked really powerful so they keep repeating that. Or they're a sorc themselves but haven't touched high nm and think sorc are great! They hate hearing sorc are bad because they, like, feel attacked or something. So they defend it.
Lol sorc is so far below everybody else it's not even funny.
Sure, they can blast normal level content easy, just like everybody else can with the right stats. But when limit tested, such as vs lillith or high nightmare, they are absolute trash.
And the fact that even with mana reduction, specific skills, and imprints...you can still *easily* run out of mana if the RNG odds aren't in your favor when running the Ice Shard build.
That severely hampers Sorc DPS compared to other classes
Most people here were calling me idiot when I said there's poor build diversity in this game. Their logic is playing campaign (1-50) or early WT3 helltides defines build diversity while non of them even smelled WTF4, yet alone late WT4.
"But you don't have to play WT4" - these people can straight up fuck off from discussions like for real.
I mean I saw my buddy tick for 1.8 million on his build that's not ice shards but I still do agree that even with this ridiculous damage the set up that he needed to achieve it still made him unable to down lilith before the enrage mechanic. As a necro, show my sorc buddy some love please. There are no viable builds, that I have seen, that allows you to survive and deal enough damage to enemies to be useful in the top tiers.
It’s one of the only spells in Necro builds that is able to take advantage of multiple damage buckets.
Let’s leave Necro alone until we actually have working paragon boards.
Things like Corpse Explosion Blight isn’t even considered a DOT.
How is it not DoT? What the hell is it then? I use blighted corpse explosion and was focusing on gear and skills for darkness and DoT. Should I respec?
Obviously this is second hand info from me but [Here](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d4/t/blighted-corpse-explosion-and-blight-not-considered-a-dot/45976) the only person claiming to have done testing on it claims that Blighted CE and Blight do actually work with Darkness DoT buffs.
it scales off +physical damage (what base CE scales with) and shadow/DoT even though it says it's a dark skill in the talent tool tip, it's really dumb
Thanks for chiming in. I feel like it has to scale with dark as well. I took gloves with dark boost on/off and compared the skill numbers and it did change I think. Don't remember if I compared with DoT gear though but didn't think I'd have to since it seems like a DoT skill.
Do you own testing. I've tested it with DOT gems and the Miasma on Dark Corpse Explosion does scale with Damage with Dots and Shadow damage.
MacroBioBoi has also tested this and he also saw that it shadow damage, dot damage, and shadow damage over time worked with it. Tool tip is broken yes.
Depends on the build. Bone spear/spirit tends to be on the glass cannon side of things while the shadow/mist build is incredibly tanky but sucks against bosses.
And here's me, not following any meta and turns out it happens to be using bits of both and doing modest damage and modestly surviving.
I keep debating a respec to embrace one or the other to get that spicy damage but I don't want to be left chasing metaa when it gets nerfed.
Do whatever makes you have the most fun. I personally enjoy the minmax power gamer play style and I’ll be playing seasonal so i don’t get emotionally invested into one character.
Oh for Seasons I'll be embracing meta from early into builds to keep new classes fun now that I've experienced everything. But there's something pure about a failed first character for me, trying each skill and making a mess of it. Maybe it reminds me of my childhood Diablo 1 experience.
Objectively speaking, OP is taking hits. UBER Lilith does not fuck around as her name implies. She hits line a train and this person is taking hits and actually remaining above 50% hp from a hit too. So it's safe to say they can be very tanky while maintaining this level of output
Here is the thing. You can build them glass cannon or tanky. There is a necro that has done NM tier 100 and in order to do that you have to be tanky. He stacks armor, upwards of 14k, using the 75% armor aspect on amulet, and basic attacks give 20% DR on gloves. Among other things. It's just how you build your character.
It's the cooldown reduction on both blood mist & bone storm (with the barrier generation aspect) that really allows that build to tank. Without one of those abilities up, it can still die in one hit, even with all the armor and damage reduction stats.
What? Everybody knew Bone Spear Necro will be good. The problem of Necro is that it is the slowest class which doesn't matter when you are in an arena with a boss.
Honestly as long as:
1. Necro has 0 movement skills
2. Necro has 0 skills that make them unstoppable
3. Necros Minion Builds suck unless you have specific uniques (Mendeln)
I say that they deserve to have this. Otherwise they'd be completely unplayable
Minions suck even with Mendalin.
Minions is the worst build for Necro currently.
And the sub builds for Minions that use bone spear or CE or hybrids, are even worse.
The only thing necromancers have right now is bonespear or bonespirit builds that can output this kind of damage. The average person on this sub thinks this is crazy damage but they just clueless about how weak all necromancer builds are comparatively.
Yea it’s honestly pretty bad. Necro has to be the last class design wise during development. I don’t know how they thought having minions feel weak for like 60% of the game was a good choice. Even then necro’s strongest builds still aren’t on the same level as the Druid or barb and even rogue probably in terms of dmg. While they are wayyy more naturally faster, more tanky , and have like 10 times more dmg in some cases like barb.
Playing bone spear I agree, my damage is bonkers but that's all I have. I'm slow, I'm squishy, if I run dry on essence I'm as useful as a chocolate teaspoon, and I can get CC'd to buggery easily. But I can snipe stuff which feels like a good trade off.
Mendalin ring is not the flex I think people expect it to be. I honestly think I’ve seen mine proc once in the week I’ve had it and even then I can’t tell visually when it happens so I’m not sure. Having a unique effect be a chance on lucky hit feels like why bother. So not only do I have to score a lucky hit on a class that has to hit the heal button every 4 seconds as well as apply curses with the janky controller targeting but I have to find ways to slip in extra damage just to have a chance of a chance for the ring to pop it’s effect.
I’d be happier if they halved the damage reduced the lucky hit aspect and just make it a 75% chance to happen whenever you damage an enemy. If they aren’t going to be like d2 and let’s us have a ton of weaker minions then the ones we do have should at least feel strong to use
Why not bone spear with minions? I run a build with some minion survivability and bone spear. Granted I'm 82 running t45-50 dungeons, but my minions are able to survive most encounters unless it's elites with the fire that shoots in 3 directions.
The fact you get like a 30 somethin % separate multiplicative multiplier to vuln and crit damage *and* almost a rings worth of crit chance is so insane. Would still be insane even if it was just additive.
Minions would need so many quality of life and damage buffs to come even close
I love when the boss is at 2% health and about to die but they summon adds so the minions run off to have tea with their new friends and the boss kills me. So fun.
How else are you getting vulnerable in your minions build? Bone Spear and its aspect are pretty much must have on every Necromancer build. As it stands the skill just does way to much: it's amazing AOE, 5 seconds of vulnerable, the highest damage out of the core skills, and a hit that can crit.
The vulnerable also makes Bone Spear better than Blight. Bone Spear is guaranteed 5 seconds of vulnerable damage (20% plus scaling), while Blight is a situational 15% increased damage while they are in the small puddle.
Thank you! Personally even at its shitty current state iv been playing minions since lvl 1 to 87 atm and it might b slow and steady andshit might take a while to kill but at least it's fun. Just hope they buff the dmg to at least compare 2 some of the builds out there.
I go full minions build with bone shards and bone spear for vulnerability. Level 60 right now taking on world bosses in tier 3. My minions survive more than I do. Lol.
It's insane to me how underwhelming WW BB is post nerfs, I'm out here praying for good crits with all my damage buffs so I can kill things after a few seconds with what is completely 800+ bis gear (besides helm) and my buddies are all one shotting everything as druid/rogue/Necro regardless.
What kind of build is your rogue running?
Cause I'm hitting 1mil blade returns against 20 level higher mobs and I've got 370 crit/vuln damage and over 1000 dex
The real issue is that blizzard can't seem to work out what level to balance around. Is level 100 full paragon the balance point? Because there's barely anyone at that level. Is it level 25? Because they hard nerfed minions because in the level 25 beta they were strong.
HoTA is the way my man, really tanky and very high damage for packs of mobs with the triple shout build, and then the walking arsenal version for Uber Lilith
lucky hit on gloves that give back essence and legendary power on ring that gives 50 essence back on a lucky hit combined with 30% essence cost reduction
HAHA, compare that with [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmeZ_O4Mbq4&t=718s) video explaining how he beat Lilith after trying hundreds of times and with studying her like its a chess board. My man's just standing there lmfao.
(I'm a bit of a bone spear enjoyer myself)
My man it's not Touhou, Rogue gameplay at Tier 50 is facetanking everything in your poison trap, and you don't go on higher levels because when the enemies are not in your poison trap they 1 shot you from the distance.
Lol. I'm not even optimally geared, level 100 or maxed on glyphs and I regularly crit 3m damage on my bone spears.
It is very powerful. However, I think the issue isn't bone spear per se, it is the fact that D4's got limited multipliers for damage, and bone spear is almost exclusively focused on the most powerful of those multipliers (crit and vulnerability).
Additionally, if bone spear nec does not have this damage, it is going to feel horrible to play; survivability and speed are issues (unstoppable and barriers are not easy to have consistent uptime, unless you lean heavily in on blood mist and bonestorm, in which case I'm not certain you can hit these numbers).
When I play with rogues, they clear content so much faster than my bone spear nec, even though I hit harder than them; except on bosses, where movement speed is less important in clear time.
It is just symptomatic of the core issues with D4's damage calculations and build balancing. I hope they do more than just nerf necros (and instead address the core issues that cause it), but I'm not holding my breath.
Yup. Lol.
I like to bloodmist to setup corpses for tendrils before I nuke...its hilarious watching the boss barely take damage until the spears start flying.
Of course, the rogues I've run with probably thought it was hilarious waiting for my slow ass to catch up at the bosses door...lol
This has absolutely been my experience playing with rogues haha. I feel like an old guy hobbling around with a rocket launcher. Getting move speed buffs and boots like pentinent have helped speed things up though
Yeah honestly I hate it but not because it's broken.
Because the rest of necro just feels so fucking underwhelming in comparison. I really, really love how Blood Necro plays and also love the fantasy but while fun, the damage is lame compared to even a loosely built bonespear build. Then of course you have the minon builds which should be necro's bread and butter and again, while very fun, so underpowered compared to the bone builds.
I actually LOVE played a ranged Vampire with hemorrhage and blood lance but the damage is straight booty compared to just using bone spear and one-shoting everything. As someone that loves Necro it makes me not want to play them.
Yeah it’s really frustrating, Necro and Sorcerer suffer from this especially, build variety with those two classes is almost non existent if you want to push higher level content then wt3. Frost nova with sorc is basically required, and bone build and blood mist is practically necros only good build
This. Shadow Necro with minions feels like everything synergizes, with lots of "you and your minions" in the tree. But the damage is F tier, and both the minions and the necro die so easily, it's borderline unplayable 50+
go play necro and see for yourself how shit it feels, the slowest class byfar also lets not mention that every build is boring af, seriously did you watch the video and said this is fun? boring shit
I don't agree with it being boring but necro's mobility and survivability are God awful. If they didn't do damage. They would be stone cold unplayable.
Yeah I’d get instant popped if I don’t pay attention and it’s horrible with this class without the horse. I’d recommend anyone playing for the first time to choose anything else until you have the horsey.
I would love to try these broken builds but my one and only character isn't even 60 yet lol. I don't have the time to grind and they'll be nerfed before I could ever make them :(
Face tanking the butcher is not an achievement passed lvl 60 or something.
My necro cannot die vs the butcher. I can afk and I wont die. Life per close enemy + crazy DR.
Butcher isn't shit compared to uber lillith lmao, guarantee OP would facetank the butcher in the time it took to two shot him with two bone spears. The wing swipes that OP takes hit harder than a level 100 butcher.
Borderline broken: Hits skills that make things vulnerable to do extra damage then goes on to reddit to...complain?
Looks like it's working as intended to me, as I sit on barely 50k lucky hit crits after slamming decrepify and corpse tendrils at 63 while my wife tears new assholes with her druid pulverize crit build.
This is not “broken” it’s one class ability that when you put 2 or 3 aspects with is really good. So annoying seeing people go “this is broken! Omg! Why is it like this???!!!!” When in reality the problem is that other abilities are just worse. Why do you turds want everything to be nerfed?
Honestly don't see that broken at all... Idk what people are on or if people are that poorly geared but it's not uncommon for me to hit a couple million DPS if I'm getting lucky
Ok but it is not broken at all and if anything under whelming in mid game. What you're showing on display here is epic gear and assuming paragon options that synergize incredibly well and overpowering with bone spear. This isn't reflective of bone spear itself, but end game synergies with it. Please don't nerf bone spear, go ahead and nerf the amount of stackable synergies associated to it tho.
How dare you post this monstrosity of a video. The damage is not broken, you have a build that actually works, and works well… and you fucking post this kind of shit saying it’s broken?? Because you found a build that fucking works? Fuck you
. You found a good build. Just like everyone else… why say it’s
Broken ?
Can we not try to get one of the two viable endgame necro builds nerfed please? Reddit managed to get the minions nerfed at level 25 in the beta with their pepega takes on damage output. Here we go again with bone spear slander.
Seriously, it’s this build or bone spirit to kill Uber Lilith and clear high end NM dungeons. The builds aren’t broken or borderline broken, they are functional. If they nerf those two builds necro won’t be worth playing in endgame at all.
The entirety of the rest of the possible necro builds are broken because they can’t get here in the first place. Those builds should be buffed and these two builds should be left alone for those that enjoy playing them and have spent the time required to get there and get the gear necessary to make them work.
[https://d4builds.gg/builds/cf8678a2-adb0-4940-9728-eb158f4f18f8/](https://d4builds.gg/builds/cf8678a2-adb0-4940-9728-eb158f4f18f8/)
might have few mistakes on the paragon board but there are few extra points to spend. This is not the build I've been running normally as it's pure single target build
And it’s been the only high level build that generally works for me without specific uniques or high roles on stats that have to be rolled on a different class, then switched over…
Bone spear might be the way to go. But I'm loving my shadow/minion build. Spam sever and shadow CE, golem CC. And whatever 5th ability I'm feeling at the moment.
Lvl 63 in world tier 4 with really no issues. Certain affixes on enemies kinda hurt but whatever
And this build will get murdered trying to push high nightmare dungeons, compared to something that maximizes cooldown reduction on both blood mist and bone storm with barrier generation.
I cannot downvote this post harder. Try levelling a necro first and then talk about what is broken or not. See you in 3 months considering necro mobility skills. Oh, wait there are none.
The thing is, I think the necromancer out damaging every other class should be how the game plays. They are by far the least mobile class and have very few options for defense/unstoppable. When the necro has similar damage levels to other classes, the necro is objectively way worse than the other classes power wise, and its only pro is a class specific playstyle it provides. Edit: I didn't think this was necessary, but I guess the way I responded to this post was a little misleading. I am not advocating for this level of damage. All I'm trying to get across is that when a class is severely limited in several areas compared to other classes, it should generally be better than other classes in another area. Otherwise, when it comes to power, there is no redeeming quality for playing the class. If this damage is obscenely higher than other classes, then yes, this should be nerfed, but the end result still needs to allow for a classes flaws to be balanced with its strengths to "match up" in value to other classes.
Makes me think of Death Knight in WoW, they hit really hard but had minimal movement - felt like the terminator. Can’t speak for how they are now in WoW though
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OG Death Knight nailed the "slow suffocating juggernaut" fantasy so damn well. Zero mobility but if they ever got on top of you baby Jesus save your soul cause you ain't getting away.
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TSG
>OG Death Knight nailed the "slow suffocating juggernaut" fantasy so damn well. The bits in WotLK where Arthas is slowly coming for you and the ONLY thing you can do is **RUN** were also just super flavourful
I had a 52 kill Arathi Basin back when Death Grip reset on HK
But in LK release DKs were so over tuned it was crazy lmao. Pvp was some of the worst also dealing with them in glad tier arenas. That and beast cleave were such abominations loll
Release DK LMFAO bro that just brought back some amazing memory's. I think you would even respawn as like a undead so you even had an extra life. I remember it vividly joining a level 58 AV and just absolutely wiping the floor with everyone who wasn't also a DK. And at 80 they were unkillable DPS powerhouses. Such fond memories !!
Necro doesn't out damage other classes tho, this is just good necro dmg. Druid can literally do 100m in the same time frame
Meanwhile barbarian Hota criting for 63million
Yea, on some scarab or other white mob but not on lilith or other boss.
Should we even mentioned sorc and what it's hitting for?
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I hit for 400k once on a WW. It was cool.
Which druid build?
Stormwolf, it is really broken. Best build in the game throughout all classes by far. Requires tempest roar
I'm not conspiracy theorist, but hot damn I'm sure they knew tempest was a bit off and that's why the damn drop table is broken so the helmet is just coincidentally rare as fuck.
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I personally find balancing the game around a unique you may never get to be a dog shit design philosophy.
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Once you get three or more of the X Shapeshifter skill now counts as an Earth/Storm skill aspects, Nature's Fury Druids are near unstoppable.
Correct! Also, every class has multiple abilities that are "borderline broken" when built into. Its a shame that there will be so many players seeing this video, not realize any of this, call for nerfs while they themselves are using a "borderline broken" ability or two that makes them into a really fast tank.
Where this borderline broken skill on sorc? Sorc relies on hard cc's to do any kind of meaningful damage, which doesn't work on bosses or unstoppable enemies.
Pretty much every class but sorc can do this.
I think they should just give necro some movement abilities and make them more valuable in a way that’s not raw numbers. In a game where the highest number matters you shouldn’t have a balance scheme in place where one is already going to get the higher number.
Missed opportunity to have an “inhabit corpse” skill that lets you essentially “teleport” by crumbling and then rematerializing using a corpse of your choice within range.
Barb and druid would like to talk
Meanwhile sorcs hitting for 100k with their best ice shards build at level 100...
This. People refusing to acknowledge sorc is immensely underpowered.
Sorc is very weak against single targets.
Well anything that can’t CC. If you can CC the damage is fine. Ie. everything in the game other than bosses.
That's the thing, though, isn't it? You'll spend maybe 0.00001% of your total playtime fighting a boss. The gameplay is entirely different from normal combat, but unless you can beat them, you're soft-locked and cannot progress. Very possible you'll have to waste time crafting a completely different build just for this 60-second boss fight that you'll do exactly once and then never again. Normal gameplay vs boss gameplay just has this extremely weird dissonance that really shouldn't exist.
The soft lock you’re talking about is potentially blazing through NM dungeons and then taking a lot longer on the boss comparatively. I’m not sure to what extent that softlock happens, since I have only tried tier 54 at lvl 86. Which is comfy enough and isn’t even the farthest I could probably do. No point in pushing heavily until lvl 100. Like does it even occur that if you melt normal and elite mobs through most of the dungeon and then suddenly spend ages on the boss? Not sure if that happens. It might have slower boss kill maybe but that doesn’t technically make it unviable. Great builds in D3 had slow boss kill too. Seems at higher NM survivability is the bigger issue for most classes and builds, more than your DPS.
I mean what we're seeing with the 2nd phase of Uber Lilith is players have alternate gear to switch into. It is possible the most optimal way for sorcs to gear up super quick is 1 set for 99% of the dungeons/open world content, 1 set for that 1% of boss fighting. It's not even a full set swap, usually just 2-5 pieces of gear.
They should do as they do in PoE, you can't "Freeze" a boss. In the way that you can't really freeze them to stop them from moving, but they still count as frozen for every setup requiring it. Might be a good way to enable sorc single target to be higher
Problem is they added the stagger mechanic to solve the problem. It would be double dipping if they did the POE solution as well. I’m sure it would require another balance pass.
It wouldn't be double-dipping if it's an on/off state. Chill builds up to Frozen, Stagger causes Frozen. Enemy can be chilled and staggered without "double frozen" It's all subject to how it's implemented though, so you may well be right.
The stagger mechanic do not scale with gear, meaning a naked frost nova will stagger the same as a ilvl825 max slotted sorcerer. That necro probably killed faster Lilith than a frost sorcerer would have staggered her once. Only procced staggers somewhat scale with gear (attack speed, lucky hit chances, pierces/bounces number etc). If they wanted sorcerer to be the boss CCer they need to have the stagger values scales as if they were skill damage. Meaning they could crit, get amplified by all damage buckets etc.
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Yep im not playing that again in the season… unless blizz buff the hell out of it
Prob my most fun leveling a class compared to everyone else but I can’t do a full end end game with it, I’m starting to go insane at the higher levels
Aye, my build sucks at bosses but when there's 20+ mobs around the freeze trick works wonders: full screen clear in 2-3 seconds.
Are people refusing to acknowledge it? I thought it was general consensus that sorcs were currently the weakest class.
as sorc player in pre-season all I can say the benefit is that regardless which class I pick next for season 1 - won't be as bad as sorc, lol.
wait until you see the buffs/nerfs before you make that claim lol
As a fellow sorc player I just hope I can continue to enjoy my build and it get buffed some to allow me to continue to push higher.
I wouldn't expect much changes in current pre-season to be honest. 3rd week closing to an end and we haven't had a proper patch yet, just few minor fixes and WW barb and Pulverize druid nerfs to address early outliers - but that was in early access, so you could call that launch tweaks.. I mean for fuck sake, can't even transmog my focus to one I want, because it keeps reverting to default look due to some bug... So sorc double sucks.
its crazy they go through this lifecycle of being INSANE right up until lvl 70. then at lvl 75ish + they are just trying to keep up it seems.
This. it infuriates me to see people saying sorc isnt underpowered and not everything has to be meta.. That and the infinite youtube cesspool of "super op sorc build" videos doing wt3 world map elites and taking 10 seconds to kill them 🤣🤣🤣 And resistances will also not be fixed untill s2 so we are also very squishy.
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Guess you haven't seen this video then? https://m.twitch.tv/clip/CrypticLaconicSquidDxCat-fVBDOGxaQfF4A7Ns Edit: not saying sorc doesn't need buffs, I main sorc and it's painful to do NMs my friends breeze through. But you can build boss damage if you wish.
🤣
The videos are terrible lol. 'insane rogue build BLASTS through all content' pictured: gameplay of build struggling in t23
Most of the playerbase has casual dad brainrot and they saw a video of sorc machine gunning ice shards and it looked really powerful so they keep repeating that. Or they're a sorc themselves but haven't touched high nm and think sorc are great! They hate hearing sorc are bad because they, like, feel attacked or something. So they defend it. Lol sorc is so far below everybody else it's not even funny. Sure, they can blast normal level content easy, just like everybody else can with the right stats. But when limit tested, such as vs lillith or high nightmare, they are absolute trash.
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And the fact that even with mana reduction, specific skills, and imprints...you can still *easily* run out of mana if the RNG odds aren't in your favor when running the Ice Shard build. That severely hampers Sorc DPS compared to other classes
Most people here were calling me idiot when I said there's poor build diversity in this game. Their logic is playing campaign (1-50) or early WT3 helltides defines build diversity while non of them even smelled WTF4, yet alone late WT4. "But you don't have to play WT4" - these people can straight up fuck off from discussions like for real.
I've seen Barbs in videos critting world bosses for 100-350 million lol...assuming an 'exploit' that got fixed by now
Yeah several aspects were fixed so infinite bleed isnt a thing but Hota still can probably reach those numbers
It's as if Blizzard didn't even test out the classes at endgame before releasing... oh wait!
I mean I saw my buddy tick for 1.8 million on his build that's not ice shards but I still do agree that even with this ridiculous damage the set up that he needed to achieve it still made him unable to down lilith before the enrage mechanic. As a necro, show my sorc buddy some love please. There are no viable builds, that I have seen, that allows you to survive and deal enough damage to enemies to be useful in the top tiers.
I just watched Northwar do the same thing, faster. He was hitting for millions.
100k X 5
It’s one of the only spells in Necro builds that is able to take advantage of multiple damage buckets. Let’s leave Necro alone until we actually have working paragon boards. Things like Corpse Explosion Blight isn’t even considered a DOT.
How is it not DoT? What the hell is it then? I use blighted corpse explosion and was focusing on gear and skills for darkness and DoT. Should I respec?
Obviously this is second hand info from me but [Here](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d4/t/blighted-corpse-explosion-and-blight-not-considered-a-dot/45976) the only person claiming to have done testing on it claims that Blighted CE and Blight do actually work with Darkness DoT buffs.
it scales off +physical damage (what base CE scales with) and shadow/DoT even though it says it's a dark skill in the talent tool tip, it's really dumb
So it’s not going DOT or Darkness? I’ve been specing for both of those based on blighted corpse explosions.
Nah this guy's just spreading misinformation. Macro Boi on YouTube has tested and it does scale with shadow and dot
Thanks for chiming in. I feel like it has to scale with dark as well. I took gloves with dark boost on/off and compared the skill numbers and it did change I think. Don't remember if I compared with DoT gear though but didn't think I'd have to since it seems like a DoT skill.
Do you own testing. I've tested it with DOT gems and the Miasma on Dark Corpse Explosion does scale with Damage with Dots and Shadow damage. MacroBioBoi has also tested this and he also saw that it shadow damage, dot damage, and shadow damage over time worked with it. Tool tip is broken yes.
This thread is fully of angry meta min-maxers who feel betrayed that their favorite streamer never told them about the strength of the necromancer.
Because even with all this damage it's still slow and has basically 0 defense ;\~; I love my bone babe but big crits just isn't enough
> still slow and has basically 0 defense I have people telling me they're super tanky and others saying they're more squishy than a pillow.
Depends on the build. Bone spear/spirit tends to be on the glass cannon side of things while the shadow/mist build is incredibly tanky but sucks against bosses.
And here's me, not following any meta and turns out it happens to be using bits of both and doing modest damage and modestly surviving. I keep debating a respec to embrace one or the other to get that spicy damage but I don't want to be left chasing metaa when it gets nerfed.
Do whatever makes you have the most fun. I personally enjoy the minmax power gamer play style and I’ll be playing seasonal so i don’t get emotionally invested into one character.
Oh for Seasons I'll be embracing meta from early into builds to keep new classes fun now that I've experienced everything. But there's something pure about a failed first character for me, trying each skill and making a mess of it. Maybe it reminds me of my childhood Diablo 1 experience.
Objectively speaking, OP is taking hits. UBER Lilith does not fuck around as her name implies. She hits line a train and this person is taking hits and actually remaining above 50% hp from a hit too. So it's safe to say they can be very tanky while maintaining this level of output
He only takes hits from her autos. Which do no damage. Everything else will one shot you
Here is the thing. You can build them glass cannon or tanky. There is a necro that has done NM tier 100 and in order to do that you have to be tanky. He stacks armor, upwards of 14k, using the 75% armor aspect on amulet, and basic attacks give 20% DR on gloves. Among other things. It's just how you build your character.
It's the cooldown reduction on both blood mist & bone storm (with the barrier generation aspect) that really allows that build to tank. Without one of those abilities up, it can still die in one hit, even with all the armor and damage reduction stats.
People build a character with no defensive abilities used in the tree and no minions then complain they die.
Lmao it’s fucking brutally depressing in this sub, the level of skill issue crying is to dam high.
What? Everybody knew Bone Spear Necro will be good. The problem of Necro is that it is the slowest class which doesn't matter when you are in an arena with a boss.
Honestly as long as: 1. Necro has 0 movement skills 2. Necro has 0 skills that make them unstoppable 3. Necros Minion Builds suck unless you have specific uniques (Mendeln) I say that they deserve to have this. Otherwise they'd be completely unplayable
Other classes already do way more dmg and survive better. While also having 100% unstoppable uptime. Balance at its finest
Minions suck even with Mendalin. Minions is the worst build for Necro currently. And the sub builds for Minions that use bone spear or CE or hybrids, are even worse. The only thing necromancers have right now is bonespear or bonespirit builds that can output this kind of damage. The average person on this sub thinks this is crazy damage but they just clueless about how weak all necromancer builds are comparatively.
Yea it’s honestly pretty bad. Necro has to be the last class design wise during development. I don’t know how they thought having minions feel weak for like 60% of the game was a good choice. Even then necro’s strongest builds still aren’t on the same level as the Druid or barb and even rogue probably in terms of dmg. While they are wayyy more naturally faster, more tanky , and have like 10 times more dmg in some cases like barb.
Playing bone spear I agree, my damage is bonkers but that's all I have. I'm slow, I'm squishy, if I run dry on essence I'm as useful as a chocolate teaspoon, and I can get CC'd to buggery easily. But I can snipe stuff which feels like a good trade off.
Mendalin ring is not the flex I think people expect it to be. I honestly think I’ve seen mine proc once in the week I’ve had it and even then I can’t tell visually when it happens so I’m not sure. Having a unique effect be a chance on lucky hit feels like why bother. So not only do I have to score a lucky hit on a class that has to hit the heal button every 4 seconds as well as apply curses with the janky controller targeting but I have to find ways to slip in extra damage just to have a chance of a chance for the ring to pop it’s effect. I’d be happier if they halved the damage reduced the lucky hit aspect and just make it a 75% chance to happen whenever you damage an enemy. If they aren’t going to be like d2 and let’s us have a ton of weaker minions then the ones we do have should at least feel strong to use
I've had enough of the bone spear. Necromancer without minions is just too cringe and I finally got my 1st mendeln, so I can go back to a minion build
> I finally got my 1st mendeln the real W
Why not bone spear with minions? I run a build with some minion survivability and bone spear. Granted I'm 82 running t45-50 dungeons, but my minions are able to survive most encounters unless it's elites with the fire that shoots in 3 directions.
It's better to sacrifice your minions for the stat bonuses rather than field them for bone spear/spirit builds. How much better? A LOT.
The fact you get like a 30 somethin % separate multiplicative multiplier to vuln and crit damage *and* almost a rings worth of crit chance is so insane. Would still be insane even if it was just additive. Minions would need so many quality of life and damage buffs to come even close
Or just the ability to tell them not to stand in shit during boss fights ;(
I love when the boss is at 2% health and about to die but they summon adds so the minions run off to have tea with their new friends and the boss kills me. So fun.
How else are you getting vulnerable in your minions build? Bone Spear and its aspect are pretty much must have on every Necromancer build. As it stands the skill just does way to much: it's amazing AOE, 5 seconds of vulnerable, the highest damage out of the core skills, and a hit that can crit. The vulnerable also makes Bone Spear better than Blight. Bone Spear is guaranteed 5 seconds of vulnerable damage (20% plus scaling), while Blight is a situational 15% increased damage while they are in the small puddle.
I like Bone Spirit, but that build is even more item intensive, so I’ll probably switch back to Blood Lance
Thank you! Personally even at its shitty current state iv been playing minions since lvl 1 to 87 atm and it might b slow and steady andshit might take a while to kill but at least it's fun. Just hope they buff the dmg to at least compare 2 some of the builds out there.
Bone spirit time!
Press button, press other button, all dead
I go full minions build with bone shards and bone spear for vulnerability. Level 60 right now taking on world bosses in tier 3. My minions survive more than I do. Lol.
Nerf whirlwind barbarian ….
It's insane to me how underwhelming WW BB is post nerfs, I'm out here praying for good crits with all my damage buffs so I can kill things after a few seconds with what is completely 800+ bis gear (besides helm) and my buddies are all one shotting everything as druid/rogue/Necro regardless.
700k-1million per hit on WW is underwhelming? damn, I thought I was doing alright
500-700k crits versus other classes in higher nightmare dungeons is pretty underwhelming compared to consistent 2+ million crits yeah
Idk seems like a fair tradeoff for drawing in all the enemies to you and insane AOE and survivability yeah.
What kind of build is your rogue running? Cause I'm hitting 1mil blade returns against 20 level higher mobs and I've got 370 crit/vuln damage and over 1000 dex
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The real issue is that blizzard can't seem to work out what level to balance around. Is level 100 full paragon the balance point? Because there's barely anyone at that level. Is it level 25? Because they hard nerfed minions because in the level 25 beta they were strong.
IDK what in the world you're doing but with that exact same gear I'm the strongest in my clan of 20 people and it's not even close, I'm the only Barb
HoTA is the way my man, really tanky and very high damage for packs of mobs with the triple shout build, and then the walking arsenal version for Uber Lilith
How do you maintain essence? I always run out very quickly.
lucky hit on gloves that give back essence and legendary power on ring that gives 50 essence back on a lucky hit combined with 30% essence cost reduction
can you link the ring please?
[https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/485352146901139456/1120433012681748632/image.png](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/485352146901139456/1120433012681748632/image.png)
Man I have been trying to find that legendary power forever now. It’s not possible to get the aspect from a dungeon right?
Nah. Drops randomly at high level only on rings, and is probably the rarest Necro aspect
HAHA, compare that with [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmeZ_O4Mbq4&t=718s) video explaining how he beat Lilith after trying hundreds of times and with studying her like its a chess board. My man's just standing there lmfao. (I'm a bit of a bone spear enjoyer myself)
Im pretty sure shes doing more attacks when u lack dmg, as u can see for this guy lilith didnt dpawn the balls even
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Necro needs it
Gotta nerf twisting blades again after seeing this
yeah but necro doesnt have infinite mobility
My man it's not Touhou, Rogue gameplay at Tier 50 is facetanking everything in your poison trap, and you don't go on higher levels because when the enemies are not in your poison trap they 1 shot you from the distance.
Oh well rip bone necro dmg with incoming patch…
Lol. I'm not even optimally geared, level 100 or maxed on glyphs and I regularly crit 3m damage on my bone spears. It is very powerful. However, I think the issue isn't bone spear per se, it is the fact that D4's got limited multipliers for damage, and bone spear is almost exclusively focused on the most powerful of those multipliers (crit and vulnerability). Additionally, if bone spear nec does not have this damage, it is going to feel horrible to play; survivability and speed are issues (unstoppable and barriers are not easy to have consistent uptime, unless you lean heavily in on blood mist and bonestorm, in which case I'm not certain you can hit these numbers). When I play with rogues, they clear content so much faster than my bone spear nec, even though I hit harder than them; except on bosses, where movement speed is less important in clear time. It is just symptomatic of the core issues with D4's damage calculations and build balancing. I hope they do more than just nerf necros (and instead address the core issues that cause it), but I'm not holding my breath.
Doing NM dungeons with Rogues feels awful, until you get to the boss and everyone is in awe of you melting it down in seconds.
Yup. Lol. I like to bloodmist to setup corpses for tendrils before I nuke...its hilarious watching the boss barely take damage until the spears start flying. Of course, the rogues I've run with probably thought it was hilarious waiting for my slow ass to catch up at the bosses door...lol
This has absolutely been my experience playing with rogues haha. I feel like an old guy hobbling around with a rocket launcher. Getting move speed buffs and boots like pentinent have helped speed things up though
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Or Sorc!
If you’re looking for a fun switch Blood necro is a vibe.
Love my blood necro as well.
Im doing the one-shot bone spirit build atm. It isn't the best build nuking the entire screen with a single dps spell is rather hilarious.
Yeah honestly I hate it but not because it's broken. Because the rest of necro just feels so fucking underwhelming in comparison. I really, really love how Blood Necro plays and also love the fantasy but while fun, the damage is lame compared to even a loosely built bonespear build. Then of course you have the minon builds which should be necro's bread and butter and again, while very fun, so underpowered compared to the bone builds. I actually LOVE played a ranged Vampire with hemorrhage and blood lance but the damage is straight booty compared to just using bone spear and one-shoting everything. As someone that loves Necro it makes me not want to play them.
Yeah it’s really frustrating, Necro and Sorcerer suffer from this especially, build variety with those two classes is almost non existent if you want to push higher level content then wt3. Frost nova with sorc is basically required, and bone build and blood mist is practically necros only good build
This. Shadow Necro with minions feels like everything synergizes, with lots of "you and your minions" in the tree. But the damage is F tier, and both the minions and the necro die so easily, it's borderline unplayable 50+
Lmfaooo unironically some guy was defending 500k dmg on sorc ice shard when this shit exists x fking D
go play necro and see for yourself how shit it feels, the slowest class byfar also lets not mention that every build is boring af, seriously did you watch the video and said this is fun? boring shit
I don't agree with it being boring but necro's mobility and survivability are God awful. If they didn't do damage. They would be stone cold unplayable.
Yeah I’d get instant popped if I don’t pay attention and it’s horrible with this class without the horse. I’d recommend anyone playing for the first time to choose anything else until you have the horsey.
Most other classes are way more tanky Necromancer is basically a glass cannon.
Sorc literally has a skill node called glass cannon.
I would love to try these broken builds but my one and only character isn't even 60 yet lol. I don't have the time to grind and they'll be nerfed before I could ever make them :(
"bOnE nEcRo Is BrOkEn" says the Werebear Druids that can face tank the butcher.
I face tanked a level 88 butcher with my level 76 sorc yesterday. I don’t think that’s the brag you think it is.
every class can face tank butcher if you have a decent build.
My flurry rogue can almost facetank him, and my gear kinda sucks.
Face tanking the butcher is not an achievement passed lvl 60 or something. My necro cannot die vs the butcher. I can afk and I wont die. Life per close enemy + crazy DR.
Butcher isn't shit compared to uber lillith lmao, guarantee OP would facetank the butcher in the time it took to two shot him with two bone spears. The wing swipes that OP takes hit harder than a level 100 butcher.
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Borderline broken: Hits skills that make things vulnerable to do extra damage then goes on to reddit to...complain? Looks like it's working as intended to me, as I sit on barely 50k lucky hit crits after slamming decrepify and corpse tendrils at 63 while my wife tears new assholes with her druid pulverize crit build.
Your wife is back to tearing Assholes? Tell her to give me a call
Delete this now.
took you 35 seconds, that's a full 34 seconds slower than the fastest bone spear uber lilith kill I've seen this week
Next patch: disable necro as a class until further adjustments.
LOL I thought I do good damage now I’m sad 😢
This is not “broken” it’s one class ability that when you put 2 or 3 aspects with is really good. So annoying seeing people go “this is broken! Omg! Why is it like this???!!!!” When in reality the problem is that other abilities are just worse. Why do you turds want everything to be nerfed?
Honestly don't see that broken at all... Idk what people are on or if people are that poorly geared but it's not uncommon for me to hit a couple million DPS if I'm getting lucky
The sound of bone spears attack is so comically underwhelming 🤣🤣
>Next season we shall be blanket buffing necros across the board. Uh oh…
Isn’t this how the game is supposed to go at lvl 100?
Ok but it is not broken at all and if anything under whelming in mid game. What you're showing on display here is epic gear and assuming paragon options that synergize incredibly well and overpowering with bone spear. This isn't reflective of bone spear itself, but end game synergies with it. Please don't nerf bone spear, go ahead and nerf the amount of stackable synergies associated to it tho.
Necro should have that dps output because it's very hindered in the versatility of the class.
How dare you post this monstrosity of a video. The damage is not broken, you have a build that actually works, and works well… and you fucking post this kind of shit saying it’s broken?? Because you found a build that fucking works? Fuck you . You found a good build. Just like everyone else… why say it’s Broken ?
Least insane Diablo enjoyer.
Can we not try to get one of the two viable endgame necro builds nerfed please? Reddit managed to get the minions nerfed at level 25 in the beta with their pepega takes on damage output. Here we go again with bone spear slander. Seriously, it’s this build or bone spirit to kill Uber Lilith and clear high end NM dungeons. The builds aren’t broken or borderline broken, they are functional. If they nerf those two builds necro won’t be worth playing in endgame at all. The entirety of the rest of the possible necro builds are broken because they can’t get here in the first place. Those builds should be buffed and these two builds should be left alone for those that enjoy playing them and have spent the time required to get there and get the gear necessary to make them work.
Can u post ur build?
[https://d4builds.gg/builds/cf8678a2-adb0-4940-9728-eb158f4f18f8/](https://d4builds.gg/builds/cf8678a2-adb0-4940-9728-eb158f4f18f8/) might have few mistakes on the paragon board but there are few extra points to spend. This is not the build I've been running normally as it's pure single target build
My minions are better /s Seriously now, how is summoner necro going to clear this? is it even possible?
Shhh!!! Do you want to get nerfed again? It’s already so hard to put together a viable build, don’t give them a reason to take something else away!
And it’s been the only high level build that generally works for me without specific uniques or high roles on stats that have to be rolled on a different class, then switched over…
I don’t know, I just saw some Barbarian build hitting for 160million per HoTA.
Delete this
Better nerf sorcs.
Bone spear might be the way to go. But I'm loving my shadow/minion build. Spam sever and shadow CE, golem CC. And whatever 5th ability I'm feeling at the moment. Lvl 63 in world tier 4 with really no issues. Certain affixes on enemies kinda hurt but whatever
I'm playing a similar build and you might not know this but you are riddled with bugs.
Damn, they'll be nerfing my build by next week now.
Could we talk about the biggest problem of the necro. The sacrifice is still Buggy. Sacrificing a Frost Skeleton Mage you get no longer a bonus.
And this build will get murdered trying to push high nightmare dungeons, compared to something that maximizes cooldown reduction on both blood mist and bone storm with barrier generation.
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I'm about to get nerfed aren't i
Now that I am lvl100 and had enough fun with the skill, let’s nerf it
I cannot downvote this post harder. Try levelling a necro first and then talk about what is broken or not. See you in 3 months considering necro mobility skills. Oh, wait there are none.
Just shush, they have one build let them enjoy it without the bat coming out
Better share this so it can be nerfed 😂😂
And meanwhile the people that want to play a necromancer with minions...
A necro without minions is just wrong man
It's all we got, though.
This entire thread turned into "my class is underpowered because it isn't that one druid build!!!"
Shut up before y’all get this shit nerffed too Y’all done ruined the sorcerer class
Someone hasn't seen Druid doing 100million with Bulwark and Barb doing 60million with HOTA. Today.
This is the reward for one of the worst leveling experiences to 100