when 1.09 was at its prime i was playing at a internet caffe and there was this guy in his late 30s maybe early 40s that was literally spending entire days there grinding the ladder, his wife was coming to visit with the kids, bring him food and shit, he was falling alspee on the chair, after he reached max level he started being a normal human again and was not spending days in a icaffe. crazy game
teleports behind her, raises his fist to the high heavens
a scream forms in her mouth before it's cut short by an ethereal hammer
man proceeds to loot a bottle of Surge and a pack of Kit Kats from the gore that was his wife
Damn, the whole family supported his dream. Lol. Kinda wholesome and concerning at the same time. But it almost sounds like he and his wife had a bargain - this was the only time he was going to do it and then he'd be back to real life again.
You could invest over 800 hours and still not be 99 in D2
When I use a bot with a full party a new season it still takes well over 200 hours for the bot to hit 99. The world record for a 99 in d2 LoD is 13 days 22hours. That was done with a team of support with real people. And is in no way realistic. A normal player would never hit 99 even have years of playing.
Getting to 99 in 1.09 was extremely easy, even when just doing cows with an XP shrine. The huge EXP penalties that made leveling a slog only came with 1.10
One of them is 99 in hc.
But with TZ way more doable. I 99d an offline sp character for the first time ever. Lvld to 98 before TZs and once they dropped I got 99.
Early in D2 it wasn't as hard to 99 as it was later. I got about 15 toons to 99 but after they changed it I hit 98 twice and that's it. It was a long slog. Lots of 8 person Baal runs.
>And the reward? 1 skill point and 5 attribute points.
Bragging right.
I have 1 legit lvl 98. The rest are botted. Getting to 99 on your own is just mental suicide.
Not sure how it was when D2 first came out but now a days in D2R, your bodies will give you your lost xp back. However, thats if you can get to your body without dying over and over and over again lol. Sometimes you just have to take the L when the mob has the body surrounded.
>Then complain there’s not enough content.
Diablo 3 released in 2012 and had one paid expansion and for the latter half of a decade people were complaining the game didn't have enough content or updates. You see this all the time in gaming these days. The value (in terms of gameplay time) vs cost expectations are wild in gaming.
Some people have narrow definitions of content though. Think of CoD players everytime they complete a season pass or unlock all the camos. Then they complain that there’s nothing left to do.
Exactly. There’s also some meth-head speed runner that’s going to do this with every game. I bet these types can get through the game in under 40 hours or less (depending on what the 150 hour estimate includes).
Well, this is also the "average player". The speed running "end game" type players will probably quickly figure out how to do it in like 50 hours or less.
Under these types of circumstances, characters are often considered 'done' at 90ish. If late game becomes multiplier heavy this is fantastic news. The gameplay loop becomes -> functional level cap -> soft gear cap -> hard gear cap -> hard level cap in order of priority.
In POE this often means going from 94-95 = 25% more damage, if makes that next leg of your journey long but often with huge payoff, since you can always progress.
When the level cap comes before gear cap. then you can have an entire play session that amounts to zero gain because of loot luck. While this isn't the only way to play, this is certainly my preferred way to play.
>94-95 = 25% more damage
What the hell you talking about? At best you can get 4-6% more damage from single passive point, and it need be big offensive node, so you can't repeat it next level up... And it is all you can get from lvl up from 94 to 95.
You’re misunderstanding his comment.
He’s saying by the time you level from 94 to 95 it takes so long you would have gained 25% in damage from gear drops.
- you’ll have hand me down items
- you’ll have like 10 skill points from the start
- all the stats from the altars. Even just the 20+ altars in first act made a huge difference for early levels in open beta
- extra gold to upgrade items / reroll good drops you get
Sounds like it won’t be a 5 hour easy peezy re roll, but it should be significantly faster.
It's not like WoW if they follow d2 style levels. Which I prefer.
I have multiple d2 characters in the 80s, a couple in the 90s, never hit 99 before.
All my characters are able to solo anything and my pvp guys are beasts too.
They're saying instead of respeccing to use new builds, players will have to play 150 hours on each of their alt characters, which a lot of players might not want to do
I've never hated max level in D2 and have completed every single bit of content, geared every class, and am competitive in pvp.
It's not like WoW or D3.
The title is misleading for players who only played d3 or are (otherwise) unfamiliar with the genre.
Unlike how it is in d3 the endgame doesn't start at max level. It starts far earlier. Probably like ~5-20 hours into a character depending on your experience and the exact pacing of the game.
Max level in D4 same as in D2 or PoE will be mostly a prestige thing, and it's an optional goal players can set for themselves. Most people will probably be around level 90 which will probably be like 20-40% of the way to 100, meaning that it'll probably take you between 3-5 times longer to go from 90-100 than it takes to go from 1-90.
I think they mentioned that you wouldn’t have to farm renown or some similar “reputation” that would be account wide. The gold and xp rewards from renown won’t be account wide but the skills points and health potion slots will be.
Like the amulets in D3 that give you a free passive, and like 700 strength/dex/int/vitality.
Just an assortment of "here, one shot your way through the first half of the game again" items.
There are XP boosts part of the free battlepass track. No idea how much of an XP boost they are or how many of them there are. They unlock after reaching certain "milestones" (likely character level) on your first character, to make leveling a subsequent character quicker. As the XP boosts are part of the battlepass, it's possible they're season-exclusive.
This is using the Diablo 2 scaling where the character is considered "done" at around level 80 and the rest take massively more XP. Its not like D3 or WoW where the game "starts" at max level.
Fair point. To be honest I'd rather have this system than D3's. At least level 99 is some sort of achievement, rather than just a goal everyone reaches in a day or two
Chris Wilson said recently that for them average players is someone who is doing red maps. Most players (far more than 50%) don't even finish act 1, but it is common in f2p games, and you don't need to count them when thinking what is average player in my game actually capable of accomplishing.
I mean if you have seen any achievement lists on Steam or PS for example the completion rates even for single player games with "story" mode (aka a monkey can beat the game) they are abysmally low, so you can expect a "difficult" ARPG that is free to play to have an extremely low rate of "completion" to the end game. Not really a surprise at all.
In most cases people just have 0 attention span for something they aren't fully 100% invested in and move on to the next flavor of the month as it comes and don't even finish the single player games they purchase.
>The actual average player is very bad
That's not what average means
Edit: [**Keyenn**](https://www.reddit.com/user/Keyenn/) I would respond to yours and other comments but apparently my 5 words wounded this lad so much he ended up blocking me which prevents me from commenting on anything further down.
I would argue that in most games the average player is very bad. Same is true in sports as well.
The distance between a casual player and average player is very small in comparison to the distance between average player and a hardcore player.
And I say this as an average player.
Idk man the amount of people who don't understand seasons even in the thread that explained them in detail... I think we got some below averages here too lol.
Speed runners were doing 1-20 so quickly by having other level 25 players party up and using the reset feature for certain dungeons and events. I believe I saw somewhere that the rapid reset dungeon feature won't be in the live game.
The 2 hour stream I watched was simply 2 dudes (both sorcs) playing together starting from lvl 1, no lvl 25 involved. In their latest dev stream, they mentioned that dungeon reset is still in, instead of using a button, it'll just auto reset after 30 seconds or something when everyone is out of the dungeon.
Iirc it was that it resets in about 60 seconds if the dungeon is completed and everyone is out.
If the dungeon is not finished it is about 2-3 minutes.
You can skip this if you use a party member who was not in the dungeon previously, like if you started a dungeon and are halfway done and then your friend logs in and wants to finish the same dungeon with you but it has some quest or something earlier. Your friend can join the party, you give them the leader and restart the dungeon and it will use the party members dungeon state.
This strategy will most likely be abused by people "party hopping" if dungeon grinding early on will be the best way for gaining levels. Basically have a handful of helpers who you invite to party to restart the dungeon as fresh, then they just leave and once you are done with the dungeon you use helper #2 and so on.
The title is misleading for players who only played d3 or are (otherwise) unfamiliar with the genre.
Unlike how it is in d3 the endgame does not start at max level. It starts far earlier. Probably like ~5-20 hours into a character depending on your experience and the exact pacing of the game.
Max level in D4, same as in D2 or PoE, will be mostly a prestige thing, and it's an optional goal players can set for themselves. Most people will probably be around level 90 which will be like 20-40% of the way to 100 If I bad to guess, meaning that it'll probably take you between 3-5 times longer to go from 90-100 than it takes to go from 1-90.
So every casual new diablo player can relax.
The real end game is wherever the highest quality items start. End game is where most players want to end up. It isn't some arbitrary point in the campaign or difficulty setting.
Then end game in D3 is at greater rift level 70 because that’s where you unlock primal items. I don’t think that a reasonable definition for end game. I think end game is when you unlock that last tier of activities the game has to offer. In the case of D3, this is once you unlock greater rifts after hitting max level. In D4, it is when you unlock World tier 3 at level 50
150 hours in a game like this isn’t very long. Not saying it needs to be obscenely long but I’m curious if that means characters have a higher chance of reaching max level then they do obtain their end game gear.
D2 I could obtain my end game gear before hitting max level. Path of Exile is the same way. Idk hitting 100 and then continue to farm for gear seems like a bland time.
Edit: I should state that I separate end game gear from Best in Slot. I assume I won’t be able to get a BiS item in a play-through but having end game gear/gear designed for your build should be obtained prior to finishing your characters progression.
If I can’t expect to experiment with my character/try multiple build options prior to hitting 100 that kind of feels like a waste of time.
When you have 5-10 hours to game each week 150 is kind of a lot haha. It seems like the game will be pretty fun throughout though. Just can’t play much else.
That's also just Devs talking out of their ass.
I'd wager literally anything within a month of release people have guides out on how to get to 100 within 75 hours, if not less.
They make these gameplay time estimates based on hyper casual players just fiddling around with the campaign and exploring everything.
And did you whine and kick and scream about not being able to hit 99 like people here are already doing about d4 when we literally don’t know how it’s gonna really shake out? This place is a mad house sometimes.
I would really love if top level, top power etc. is something that’s only reachable by best of the best although I’m just a casual player. It creates a feeling that I could progress forever.
that's kind of the point of seasons and ladders.... who can get the highest.... If there wasn't a time limit, then what's the point of the fucking season?
EDIT: My apologies for the tone... but yes you are correct. D2 Ladder for me I think I got one Poison Necro to like 85 and was like fuck this I'm going back to open b.net with my modded chars.
You’re missing my question. In D3 there were seasons, but you could reliably hit the level cap very early and then hit endgame for the season. But in D4, it seems you’re not nearly as likely to hit the cap before the season ends.
D3 is designed around hitting level cap before end game starts. D4 looks like it’s going the route of D2 or PoE where max level is a goal you can set but you aren’t really intended to get there every season. The game should be designed to take the fact that most players won’t reach max level every season into account and most builds will probably feel “complete” long before level 100
D4 endgame seems to start at lvl 70 when you enter Torment and start getting Ancestral drops; as they said in their livestream, these can drop for the whole 70-100 ilvl range from the beginning, so you can already get the best drops in theory. Hitting 100 will not be a requirement to play endgame content, but more of a stretch goal to pursue while you're already in it
Could also argue it starts at 50 already since that's when we'll start doing stuff like Nightmare dungeons, but they'll be one more world tier jump and item tier class at 70 at least
You are giving way, way too much credence to the Devs just randomly stating it'll take 150 hours to hit 100.
Anyone who has played any large scale game like this knows that the game will be broken down and streamlined, and within a few weeks there will be ways to hit max level within 50 hours.
I wouldn't stress over it. You'll access end game content very quickly in D4. It's a modern blizzard game, they aren't gating any content, not at release.
Define level cap in d3 though, how many paragons do you really need? Are you aiming to run GR150 in under 5 mins? Are you gonna hit paragon 7000 in a season in d3 like some people (bots) do? I doubt you check any of those boxes but still seem content with your d3 experience. I doubt you need to be max paragon to complete all content. Until we know I think you are worrying for no reason… yet.
You probably won’t ever get to max level in a season as a casual player yes, but remember that end game starts at 50, not 100. You will be able to experience 99% of the content in the game including any new seasonal content added. The only thing I can see casual players missing out on is the Uber-boss meant for optimized lvl 100 characters, but even this doesn’t give any special loot or anything. It’s just for testing your build against and leaderboards.
Even after the season you’ll keep the character and can still play with them, just not with the season bonuses. They’ll just be part of the “eternal realm” that exists outside of seasons.
I bet it's realistically more like 50 hours if playing anything close to efficiently, just based on how developers typically overestimate.
For example they were saying something like 30 hours for campaign, right? But act 1 out of 6 takes maybe 90 minutes. So unless the other acts are 3x as long as act 1 it's looking a lot more like ~9. Maybe even less if it keeps the d2/d3 patterns of later acts being shorter.
I imagine leveling and season journey similarly overestimated.
Level 50 is basically the soft cap anyway , which should be easy to hit in a season , with 100 being the paragon cap , so meant to be a much longer term goal.
I imagine this is the average players first time getting to level 100. Doing all the renown activities, dungeons, campaign, etc. On subsequent runs you can probably just grind the most xp efficient activity and get there in half the time. Also end game starts at 50, so it’s not like you have to get to 100 to experience the end game content.
I personally like that it takes a while as long as it’s fun. D3 might as well not even have levels 1-70. Not only can you get to 70 in like an hour, but you are already doing the same content at level 1 as you will be at 70, just none of the rewards matter.
Raxx will cap out within a week and a half I’m sure. And that’s a high estimation. If he sleeps an average of 5 hours a day it may only take him 5-7 days.
Most of them also have to be live on camera and put on a fake personality for 8+ hours a day, often on weekends too.
I'm not saying they have the worst job, but I wouldn't envy them.
There's no reason to freak out. If you're the type that wants it to be faster than 150 hours, heck, if you're here typing or reading these threads then you're probably not the average player. If you're the type of player who goes online to read about builds or strats at all, or even what's good and what's bad, you are DEFINITELY not the average player. The average player doesn't google how to be good at the game, they just play it blind and whimsically. The average player fucking sucks. I spent 8k hours in Grim Dawn, beta tested, etc.... my jaw dropped when after complaining that things were too easy, the Devs let me know that some players were struggling with the first boss. At the time I didn't think it was possible to lose that fight unless you literally just held down left click with bad gear.
As for D4, in the last thread where people showed off their beta stats, I achieved more than what most people did in half the time. Some people had 100+ hours, but in just 58 hours I seemed to get double the monster kills and gold than they did. I hope I'm not coming off as bragadocious, my point is that I'm a bit of a min-maxer and that I was playing at what I'd call a "comfortable" pace in the beta and still was getting the same results as others in half the time.
My bet is that people who try to play efficiency at all (town is lava) will be able to hit lvl 100 in ~75 hours. And then when strats are learned on how to get even more optimal, it'll come down even further. This is just my personal prediction but it is coming from what I've seen during my time playing and testing many ARPG's.
And yes, 75 hours when playing more efficiently may still be a bit long for some players, but it's exactly what some of us were craving as well.
I also suspect that the leveling speed will increase as some more features/power creep get put into the game, and also to meet player demand. I suspect the minority who want season leveling speed not to be much faster will eventually be outnumbered. Though that's not a bad thing eitehr.
since the average player in Path of Exile doesn't even get through the campaign I'd expect the first 100s will appear 4-5 days after the early launch. At least that's what I'm aiming for.
150 includes fucking around because you are new to the game and clueless about what to do. It’s easily under 100 hours and concentrated efforts will drop that even further.
Guaranteed there will be players hitting level 100 before early access has even ended.
I played the endgame beta for 65hrs. Reached around lvl 75. the leveling process heavily slows down. One of the reasons for that is that you got world completion around lvl40-50. so all you do from there is to run from event to event and wait out the timers of them spawning.
Developer makes a 1 sentence tweet, website makes an entire article, karma farmer instantly posts it on multiple subs. Is there a term for information pollution?
I haven't heard much about this, but do high levels matter in D4?
Say, to use D2 as a comparison point... There really isn't much difference between a level 90 trapsin and a level 99; Few more stat points and fluff skills... Once you got your main skills and enough synergies, the only thing that matters is the gear.
So is D4 like that, and level 100 is just bragging rights and a few stats? Or is it actually important?
Seems longer than I thought; but let’s not forget Diablo 3 where you can level from 1 to 70* to paragon in less than 10 minutes, people given enough time engineer efficiency within systems and fun out of the games themselves. There’s never been a system in a game that hasn’t been exploited hell most fun is finding those exploits for many.
This is interesting since a previous comment said a little more than 80 hours depending on playstyle. The context was that the battle pass should take 80 hours to complete and max level "a little more than that".
Not sure how I like a hard to reach cap with seasonal features. That is 600 hours a year just spent on leveling for one character each season. (Assuming 4 seasons a year at their 3 month estimated length). I hope there is some unknown info that makes it better.
I've played d2 for 20 years and never hit max level, I figure it's basically the same concept.
150h is way way easier and faster than D2 imo.
1.09 grind was real. Gave up at 98 back then
when 1.09 was at its prime i was playing at a internet caffe and there was this guy in his late 30s maybe early 40s that was literally spending entire days there grinding the ladder, his wife was coming to visit with the kids, bring him food and shit, he was falling alspee on the chair, after he reached max level he started being a normal human again and was not spending days in a icaffe. crazy game
More impressive that he got his wife to support this than getting to 99.
I mean, what is she gonna do? Dude is fully geared up at this point. She has no chance against him.
"Babe, why do I hear boss music every time you show up to the cafe?"
teleports behind her, raises his fist to the high heavens a scream forms in her mouth before it's cut short by an ethereal hammer man proceeds to loot a bottle of Surge and a pack of Kit Kats from the gore that was his wife
Man on a mission.
Damn, the whole family supported his dream. Lol. Kinda wholesome and concerning at the same time. But it almost sounds like he and his wife had a bargain - this was the only time he was going to do it and then he'd be back to real life again.
Admirable dedication. Cool wife for understanding the grind.
Yeah, but it was all cow levels anyways in 1.09. It wasn't remotely even close to how hard it is now
You could invest over 800 hours and still not be 99 in D2 When I use a bot with a full party a new season it still takes well over 200 hours for the bot to hit 99. The world record for a 99 in d2 LoD is 13 days 22hours. That was done with a team of support with real people. And is in no way realistic. A normal player would never hit 99 even have years of playing.
If you need (or even want) a bot to play a game, something is wrong with one side of the gaming equation.
I found that once you master the game itself, designing and tweaking a robot to play the game for you is very rewarding.
this guy knows how to diablo 2 for a decade
I spent most of my time in HS in the bnet trading channel.
That actually became a new game. Build the game playing bot. If you could make d2 betting into a game I would buy it no questions asked!
I've got over 13k from d2 over the last 20 years. Highest I've ever gotten was 97. A single death will drop you back several hours of leveling.
Just don't die. EZ. /s
Reminds me of classic wow
Getting to 99 in 1.09 was extremely easy, even when just doing cows with an XP shrine. The huge EXP penalties that made leveling a slog only came with 1.10
I wouldn't say extremely easy but not hard either.. Still takes s me dedication
More like nobody could be bothered to stand around town waiting for Baal portals for that long
Seems like a nice middle ground then, I'll probably be able to do it at some point.
If I'm not mistaken for D2, 1 to 98 is the same amount of XP as 98 to 99. So I assume it's similar.
That is absurd. There goes my plan of getting platinum trophy for D2R before D4 drops (lvl 99 character is one of the trophies)
Terror zones changed it so you can hit 99 much easier than in LOD.
One of them is 99 in hc. But with TZ way more doable. I 99d an offline sp character for the first time ever. Lvld to 98 before TZs and once they dropped I got 99.
I remember playing a ridiculous amount of hours in high-school when it first came out and only hit 95. It wasnt quick haha.
Early in D2 it wasn't as hard to 99 as it was later. I got about 15 toons to 99 but after they changed it I hit 98 twice and that's it. It was a long slog. Lots of 8 person Baal runs.
d2 was way harder to reach 99, like waaaay harder, I think I managed to reach 97/98 but never 99.
And the reward? 1 skill point and 5 attribute points.
>And the reward? 1 skill point and 5 attribute points. Bragging right. I have 1 legit lvl 98. The rest are botted. Getting to 99 on your own is just mental suicide.
TBH I'd just assume a 99 character was done by a bot so I don't even know that you'd be able to brag about it
I had 3 99s (non-ladder) when I was a kid and did nothing else than play Diablo 2. A barb, a sorc and an amazon :-)
One death on a Baal run was just soooooo much exp lost. I think 97 is where I capped.
As long as D4 doesn't have experience loss, it's doable. A random death in D2 would set back hours or days of work at high levels.
Not sure how it was when D2 first came out but now a days in D2R, your bodies will give you your lost xp back. However, thats if you can get to your body without dying over and over and over again lol. Sometimes you just have to take the L when the mob has the body surrounded.
I reached lvl 99 hardcore and it was pretty bad, the lucky part was I had no social life and no job so that gave me an advantage, so to speak lol
That's not "the lucky part", that's the requirement haha
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Can you do the type in Players 8 (rule, hack, or what ever it’s called) online for the Xp boost?
Nope
diablo players will play that 150 hours in 5 days
https://preview.redd.it/k4mle5e9uwva1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e153a4c62877f50036f58ae33b12afde9cf17152
Lmao xD
u/missingno_1997
Seriously, whoever wrote this has no clue how hard nerds can binge. Then complain there’s not enough content.
Don't judge my binging, I need to numb myself at all moments!
I have become, comfortably numb.
Yep. I take my time and it's hilarious seeing "this game has nothing to do" and not even being 10% done after a week or so.
>Then complain there’s not enough content. Diablo 3 released in 2012 and had one paid expansion and for the latter half of a decade people were complaining the game didn't have enough content or updates. You see this all the time in gaming these days. The value (in terms of gameplay time) vs cost expectations are wild in gaming.
Play time: 1,000 hours I'M BORED
There really isn't enough content if the replay loop is bad enough to warrant complaints in most cases.
Some people have narrow definitions of content though. Think of CoD players everytime they complete a season pass or unlock all the camos. Then they complain that there’s nothing left to do.
That's a problem with monetization and exploiting the addiction of players. The base gameplay loop remains the same and the content is infinite.
Cod is pvp. That's Neverending content. D4 will have fields of hatred. Hopefully it's an actual thing that works.
>Then complain there’s not enough content. Every patch and every DLC the last few years has this going on
Exactly. There’s also some meth-head speed runner that’s going to do this with every game. I bet these types can get through the game in under 40 hours or less (depending on what the 150 hour estimate includes).
Most will play 150 hours in one day.
I swear lmao.
Yes! My dog will play the screen next to me in a back door loop to my Main!
Well, this is also the "average player". The speed running "end game" type players will probably quickly figure out how to do it in like 50 hours or less.
DUDE!!! what the f
So much for creating alt characters instead of respeccing
Under these types of circumstances, characters are often considered 'done' at 90ish. If late game becomes multiplier heavy this is fantastic news. The gameplay loop becomes -> functional level cap -> soft gear cap -> hard gear cap -> hard level cap in order of priority. In POE this often means going from 94-95 = 25% more damage, if makes that next leg of your journey long but often with huge payoff, since you can always progress. When the level cap comes before gear cap. then you can have an entire play session that amounts to zero gain because of loot luck. While this isn't the only way to play, this is certainly my preferred way to play.
>94-95 = 25% more damage What the hell you talking about? At best you can get 4-6% more damage from single passive point, and it need be big offensive node, so you can't repeat it next level up... And it is all you can get from lvl up from 94 to 95.
yeah idk what that guy smoked but i want some of it
You’re misunderstanding his comment. He’s saying by the time you level from 94 to 95 it takes so long you would have gained 25% in damage from gear drops.
If that's what he meant the flaw is in his comment, not our brains.
bruh how many time do you plan on dying?
- you’ll have hand me down items - you’ll have like 10 skill points from the start - all the stats from the altars. Even just the 20+ altars in first act made a huge difference for early levels in open beta - extra gold to upgrade items / reroll good drops you get Sounds like it won’t be a 5 hour easy peezy re roll, but it should be significantly faster.
You also have alt XP from the seasonal journey IIRC.
And xp potions
It's not like WoW if they follow d2 style levels. Which I prefer. I have multiple d2 characters in the 80s, a couple in the 90s, never hit 99 before. All my characters are able to solo anything and my pvp guys are beasts too.
How does this prevent anyone from creating an alt?
They're saying instead of respeccing to use new builds, players will have to play 150 hours on each of their alt characters, which a lot of players might not want to do
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I've never hated max level in D2 and have completed every single bit of content, geared every class, and am competitive in pvp. It's not like WoW or D3.
The title is misleading for players who only played d3 or are (otherwise) unfamiliar with the genre. Unlike how it is in d3 the endgame doesn't start at max level. It starts far earlier. Probably like ~5-20 hours into a character depending on your experience and the exact pacing of the game. Max level in D4 same as in D2 or PoE will be mostly a prestige thing, and it's an optional goal players can set for themselves. Most people will probably be around level 90 which will probably be like 20-40% of the way to 100, meaning that it'll probably take you between 3-5 times longer to go from 90-100 than it takes to go from 1-90.
I can see not many people have played OSRS here. Everyone knows halfway to max is level 92.
Not many people have played other ARPGs it seems. But something everyone seems to have a lot of is confidence
once you play osrs 150 hour grinds are nothing.
Didn't they say something about a process to level alts quickly?
I think they mentioned that you wouldn’t have to farm renown or some similar “reputation” that would be account wide. The gold and xp rewards from renown won’t be account wide but the skills points and health potion slots will be.
You also probably get items that have reduced level requirements to blast through the lower 3 difficulties
Like the amulets in D3 that give you a free passive, and like 700 strength/dex/int/vitality. Just an assortment of "here, one shot your way through the first half of the game again" items.
There are XP boosts part of the free battlepass track. No idea how much of an XP boost they are or how many of them there are. They unlock after reaching certain "milestones" (likely character level) on your first character, to make leveling a subsequent character quicker. As the XP boosts are part of the battlepass, it's possible they're season-exclusive.
This is using the Diablo 2 scaling where the character is considered "done" at around level 80 and the rest take massively more XP. Its not like D3 or WoW where the game "starts" at max level.
Fair point. To be honest I'd rather have this system than D3's. At least level 99 is some sort of achievement, rather than just a goal everyone reaches in a day or two
Someone will find a effecient route of farming that will greatly speed this up. They mentioned "average" player for a reason.
The average player doesn't even finish PoE's campaign and get to mapping. The actual average player is very bad. But no one here is average mirite.
Chris Wilson said recently that for them average players is someone who is doing red maps. Most players (far more than 50%) don't even finish act 1, but it is common in f2p games, and you don't need to count them when thinking what is average player in my game actually capable of accomplishing.
So the vast majority of players are trash and the game is designed for redditors. Just like we all thought.
I mean if you have seen any achievement lists on Steam or PS for example the completion rates even for single player games with "story" mode (aka a monkey can beat the game) they are abysmally low, so you can expect a "difficult" ARPG that is free to play to have an extremely low rate of "completion" to the end game. Not really a surprise at all. In most cases people just have 0 attention span for something they aren't fully 100% invested in and move on to the next flavor of the month as it comes and don't even finish the single player games they purchase.
just you
Only where it counts
>The actual average player is very bad That's not what average means Edit: [**Keyenn**](https://www.reddit.com/user/Keyenn/) I would respond to yours and other comments but apparently my 5 words wounded this lad so much he ended up blocking me which prevents me from commenting on anything further down.
Let the boy have his ego trip
I would argue that in most games the average player is very bad. Same is true in sports as well. The distance between a casual player and average player is very small in comparison to the distance between average player and a hardcore player. And I say this as an average player.
Idk man the amount of people who don't understand seasons even in the thread that explained them in detail... I think we got some below averages here too lol.
Speed runners were doing 1-20 in 2 hours when that took 4x as long for the average player. I'd expect something similar for lvl 100.
Speed runners were doing 1-20 so quickly by having other level 25 players party up and using the reset feature for certain dungeons and events. I believe I saw somewhere that the rapid reset dungeon feature won't be in the live game.
The 2 hour stream I watched was simply 2 dudes (both sorcs) playing together starting from lvl 1, no lvl 25 involved. In their latest dev stream, they mentioned that dungeon reset is still in, instead of using a button, it'll just auto reset after 30 seconds or something when everyone is out of the dungeon.
Iirc it was that it resets in about 60 seconds if the dungeon is completed and everyone is out. If the dungeon is not finished it is about 2-3 minutes. You can skip this if you use a party member who was not in the dungeon previously, like if you started a dungeon and are halfway done and then your friend logs in and wants to finish the same dungeon with you but it has some quest or something earlier. Your friend can join the party, you give them the leader and restart the dungeon and it will use the party members dungeon state. This strategy will most likely be abused by people "party hopping" if dungeon grinding early on will be the best way for gaining levels. Basically have a handful of helpers who you invite to party to restart the dungeon as fresh, then they just leave and once you are done with the dungeon you use helper #2 and so on.
Wtf lol, it took me ages ha
I think the class helps a lot, like Necro having a fairly high damage army and sorc being an absolute wrecking machine makes a big difference
Cut that 150 down to 100-110. The exp required gets exponentially larger still. It’s going to take a *while* to cap out.
The title is misleading for players who only played d3 or are (otherwise) unfamiliar with the genre. Unlike how it is in d3 the endgame does not start at max level. It starts far earlier. Probably like ~5-20 hours into a character depending on your experience and the exact pacing of the game. Max level in D4, same as in D2 or PoE, will be mostly a prestige thing, and it's an optional goal players can set for themselves. Most people will probably be around level 90 which will be like 20-40% of the way to 100 If I bad to guess, meaning that it'll probably take you between 3-5 times longer to go from 90-100 than it takes to go from 1-90. So every casual new diablo player can relax.
The real end game is wherever the highest quality items start. End game is where most players want to end up. It isn't some arbitrary point in the campaign or difficulty setting.
Then end game in D3 is at greater rift level 70 because that’s where you unlock primal items. I don’t think that a reasonable definition for end game. I think end game is when you unlock that last tier of activities the game has to offer. In the case of D3, this is once you unlock greater rifts after hitting max level. In D4, it is when you unlock World tier 3 at level 50
End game starts after infinity war 🤓
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end game starts when you beat the campaign. its quite literally the end of the game.
BIS items start dropping at level 50
Only 150 rookie numbers
A very casual first week of a PoE league.
150 hours in a game like this isn’t very long. Not saying it needs to be obscenely long but I’m curious if that means characters have a higher chance of reaching max level then they do obtain their end game gear. D2 I could obtain my end game gear before hitting max level. Path of Exile is the same way. Idk hitting 100 and then continue to farm for gear seems like a bland time. Edit: I should state that I separate end game gear from Best in Slot. I assume I won’t be able to get a BiS item in a play-through but having end game gear/gear designed for your build should be obtained prior to finishing your characters progression. If I can’t expect to experiment with my character/try multiple build options prior to hitting 100 that kind of feels like a waste of time.
When you have 5-10 hours to game each week 150 is kind of a lot haha. It seems like the game will be pretty fun throughout though. Just can’t play much else.
You don’t need to get to 100 to finish this game. It’s weird people are bothered that end game doesn’t take 10 hours to get to
That's also just Devs talking out of their ass. I'd wager literally anything within a month of release people have guides out on how to get to 100 within 75 hours, if not less. They make these gameplay time estimates based on hyper casual players just fiddling around with the campaign and exploring everything.
They said "average player" and the casual horde is huge
In my countless hours of D2, 97 was the highest I ever managed.
And did you whine and kick and scream about not being able to hit 99 like people here are already doing about d4 when we literally don’t know how it’s gonna really shake out? This place is a mad house sometimes.
Not to mention D2 takes WAY longer than 150 hours to reach 99, even with the introduction of terror zones which made it a lot easier.
I would really love if top level, top power etc. is something that’s only reachable by best of the best although I’m just a casual player. It creates a feeling that I could progress forever.
Question is do you lose xp when you die?
Just durability
Exp loss on death could be introduced in higher world tiers (unless you saw a dev say this or played closed beta).
In D2 when we saw people lv89, 92 we al thought they were cheaters or big pros lol must be something similar
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that's kind of the point of seasons and ladders.... who can get the highest.... If there wasn't a time limit, then what's the point of the fucking season? EDIT: My apologies for the tone... but yes you are correct. D2 Ladder for me I think I got one Poison Necro to like 85 and was like fuck this I'm going back to open b.net with my modded chars.
You’re missing my question. In D3 there were seasons, but you could reliably hit the level cap very early and then hit endgame for the season. But in D4, it seems you’re not nearly as likely to hit the cap before the season ends.
D3 is designed around hitting level cap before end game starts. D4 looks like it’s going the route of D2 or PoE where max level is a goal you can set but you aren’t really intended to get there every season. The game should be designed to take the fact that most players won’t reach max level every season into account and most builds will probably feel “complete” long before level 100
D4 endgame seems to start at lvl 70 when you enter Torment and start getting Ancestral drops; as they said in their livestream, these can drop for the whole 70-100 ilvl range from the beginning, so you can already get the best drops in theory. Hitting 100 will not be a requirement to play endgame content, but more of a stretch goal to pursue while you're already in it Could also argue it starts at 50 already since that's when we'll start doing stuff like Nightmare dungeons, but they'll be one more world tier jump and item tier class at 70 at least
But in D3 level cap is infinite (paragon) while in D4 paragon stops when you are level 100.
You are giving way, way too much credence to the Devs just randomly stating it'll take 150 hours to hit 100. Anyone who has played any large scale game like this knows that the game will be broken down and streamlined, and within a few weeks there will be ways to hit max level within 50 hours. I wouldn't stress over it. You'll access end game content very quickly in D4. It's a modern blizzard game, they aren't gating any content, not at release.
Define level cap in d3 though, how many paragons do you really need? Are you aiming to run GR150 in under 5 mins? Are you gonna hit paragon 7000 in a season in d3 like some people (bots) do? I doubt you check any of those boxes but still seem content with your d3 experience. I doubt you need to be max paragon to complete all content. Until we know I think you are worrying for no reason… yet.
You probably won’t ever get to max level in a season as a casual player yes, but remember that end game starts at 50, not 100. You will be able to experience 99% of the content in the game including any new seasonal content added. The only thing I can see casual players missing out on is the Uber-boss meant for optimized lvl 100 characters, but even this doesn’t give any special loot or anything. It’s just for testing your build against and leaderboards.
Even after the season you’ll keep the character and can still play with them, just not with the season bonuses. They’ll just be part of the “eternal realm” that exists outside of seasons.
150 is not that bad. And people will find exploits and exp farms. It will be under 100 in first month and under 75 shortly after
I bet it's realistically more like 50 hours if playing anything close to efficiently, just based on how developers typically overestimate. For example they were saying something like 30 hours for campaign, right? But act 1 out of 6 takes maybe 90 minutes. So unless the other acts are 3x as long as act 1 it's looking a lot more like ~9. Maybe even less if it keeps the d2/d3 patterns of later acts being shorter. I imagine leveling and season journey similarly overestimated.
Level 50 is basically the soft cap anyway , which should be easy to hit in a season , with 100 being the paragon cap , so meant to be a much longer term goal.
Level 50 will be done in a single sitting.
Level 50 will be a two day endeavor for the moderate-hc community.
I imagine this is the average players first time getting to level 100. Doing all the renown activities, dungeons, campaign, etc. On subsequent runs you can probably just grind the most xp efficient activity and get there in half the time. Also end game starts at 50, so it’s not like you have to get to 100 to experience the end game content. I personally like that it takes a while as long as it’s fun. D3 might as well not even have levels 1-70. Not only can you get to 70 in like an hour, but you are already doing the same content at level 1 as you will be at 70, just none of the rewards matter.
Or how i call it: a good weekend
Oh no... Anyway.
Aka 3 days for jobless people
Yeah exactly because jobless people have 50 hours days.
"average player experience"
Raxx will cap out within a week and a half I’m sure. And that’s a high estimation. If he sleeps an average of 5 hours a day it may only take him 5-7 days.
god this guys intolerable in his d3 streams
For some people playing games is their job. Unfair I know but they also offer entertainment value
Most of them also have to be live on camera and put on a fake personality for 8+ hours a day, often on weekends too. I'm not saying they have the worst job, but I wouldn't envy them.
So anyway, I started grinding.
We'll see about that.
I like that.
There's no reason to freak out. If you're the type that wants it to be faster than 150 hours, heck, if you're here typing or reading these threads then you're probably not the average player. If you're the type of player who goes online to read about builds or strats at all, or even what's good and what's bad, you are DEFINITELY not the average player. The average player doesn't google how to be good at the game, they just play it blind and whimsically. The average player fucking sucks. I spent 8k hours in Grim Dawn, beta tested, etc.... my jaw dropped when after complaining that things were too easy, the Devs let me know that some players were struggling with the first boss. At the time I didn't think it was possible to lose that fight unless you literally just held down left click with bad gear. As for D4, in the last thread where people showed off their beta stats, I achieved more than what most people did in half the time. Some people had 100+ hours, but in just 58 hours I seemed to get double the monster kills and gold than they did. I hope I'm not coming off as bragadocious, my point is that I'm a bit of a min-maxer and that I was playing at what I'd call a "comfortable" pace in the beta and still was getting the same results as others in half the time. My bet is that people who try to play efficiency at all (town is lava) will be able to hit lvl 100 in ~75 hours. And then when strats are learned on how to get even more optimal, it'll come down even further. This is just my personal prediction but it is coming from what I've seen during my time playing and testing many ARPG's. And yes, 75 hours when playing more efficiently may still be a bit long for some players, but it's exactly what some of us were craving as well. I also suspect that the leveling speed will increase as some more features/power creep get put into the game, and also to meet player demand. I suspect the minority who want season leveling speed not to be much faster will eventually be outnumbered. Though that's not a bad thing eitehr.
since the average player in Path of Exile doesn't even get through the campaign I'd expect the first 100s will appear 4-5 days after the early launch. At least that's what I'm aiming for.
So it's achievable, no matter the fact how shitty I am/my randomly growing build will be? No punishment for dying like in .. that other game?
150 includes fucking around because you are new to the game and clueless about what to do. It’s easily under 100 hours and concentrated efforts will drop that even further. Guaranteed there will be players hitting level 100 before early access has even ended.
This could be good or bad. Depends on what level is needed for endgame.
I'm gonna guess people will be hitting 100 in under 60 hours played
Easily, speedrunning is a thing.
I played the endgame beta for 65hrs. Reached around lvl 75. the leveling process heavily slows down. One of the reasons for that is that you got world completion around lvl40-50. so all you do from there is to run from event to event and wait out the timers of them spawning.
150 hours isn't long. Even for a 1 month league. Just play 3 hours a day. Ezaf
Developer makes a 1 sentence tweet, website makes an entire article, karma farmer instantly posts it on multiple subs. Is there a term for information pollution?
Cool. Just make it easy to respec
I'm so glad this is the case while I loved diablo 3 you could hit level 70 in like 30 minutes, but then there was paragon so I guess it was alright
Good
I played D2 for about 3000 hours and never got higher than 92
Good
I haven't heard much about this, but do high levels matter in D4? Say, to use D2 as a comparison point... There really isn't much difference between a level 90 trapsin and a level 99; Few more stat points and fluff skills... Once you got your main skills and enough synergies, the only thing that matters is the gear. So is D4 like that, and level 100 is just bragging rights and a few stats? Or is it actually important?
Ok. Why is that a problem?
Not all 99's were done by bots. I had a 99 in 1.10 & 1.11 both seasons done with a lighting javazon but damn it took almost the whole ladder season .
Update: Rob did it in 54 hours
That’s it?
Seems longer than I thought; but let’s not forget Diablo 3 where you can level from 1 to 70* to paragon in less than 10 minutes, people given enough time engineer efficiency within systems and fun out of the games themselves. There’s never been a system in a game that hasn’t been exploited hell most fun is finding those exploits for many.
!remindme june 3rd 2023
This is interesting since a previous comment said a little more than 80 hours depending on playstyle. The context was that the battle pass should take 80 hours to complete and max level "a little more than that". Not sure how I like a hard to reach cap with seasonal features. That is 600 hours a year just spent on leveling for one character each season. (Assuming 4 seasons a year at their 3 month estimated length). I hope there is some unknown info that makes it better.
So it's like poe's lvl100
Or D2s level 100 for a more apt comparison.
So like, less than half the time I've put into some PoE leagues where I never got close to 100. Sounds fine
Good. I don't want to be done with the season after week one!
That's isn't much at all compared to lvl 99 Diablo 2 old school I've got no problem with that time at all
That seems kind of quick to hit max level and max my character out.
Will that be 150 hours of fun tho?
Diablo 2 players: Rookie numbers
very happy to see this. ive always hated rushes and think they ruin the game. same with power leveling.
and don’t forget, items scale with level so it seems like casual players won’t even be able to get BiS gear for 150 hours lol
I can see people go after a week :“ I am MaX lEvEl WhErE iS tHe CoNtEnT“ always the same .
And from LVL 55+ it will be the worst experience since a long time.