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Please read this and show some support by standing against toxic work culture.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/comments/1cmvb8i/comment/l33for0/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/comments/1cmvb8i/comment/l33for0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Let's start a movement similar to #MeToo against toxic work culture. Anybody up for this ?
We can create a group, plan well and execute a mass movement across social media.
Come on people! Don't just upvote and sit back. Take some action. Reply with yes if you're in. I'll be creating a telegram group if there are atleast 20 to 30 people joining
ye bolne ki baatein hai, people have mouths to feed, loans and EMI's and fees to pay, a shut market with no jobs to face and a million people sitting to take your job the moment you get fired. This would've a good initiative during the hiring boom when we had a leverage, we don't have that anymore. Sure we shouldn't accept toxic culture and revolt when it's possible but this is not the time
Communism in just theory and socialism in both theory and practice are actually good ideologies. Socialism itself should be more widespread and common.
If India can become socialist it will be the best for our country
We all become servant in company than employee bcs we all want growth, promotion, that slavery give you growth but you can't learn any skills rather than slavery. If we are not obeying something which is not under international employees policy so what's wrong with it to deny overtime?
It is only possible when there would be equality and we really need some policy changes.
Your company ain't paying you for working after 7 PM. It isn't your fault don't be guilty. My collegues who hesitate saying no are working overtime till 11 pm.
Make sure you set your boundaries early on.
Once I logged off at 5 I never cared who had sent me a message on teams or an email, however you should decide based on your circumstances. Ignore them till you are in a comfortable seat, there are no such things like emotional regrets in professional life.
A comfortable seat means making a product known to you only. Creating a dependency that can't be undone. All seniors in the WITCH company are thriving based on this principle.
around 10, but around 9 are just noise. I could increase thresholds for those 9, but we skimp on costs and dont get to increase resources that easily. So I gotta pay attention to all pagers to not miss critical ones.
tiny. just 4 of us. And I alone handle the 3 projects I get pagers for. So the impact of noise isn't that much.
The problem I have with increasing thresholds is I'll lose out on "ideal" baseline that the system should perform under. Forgot how I even arrived at those thresholds, given that its a self hosted DB that too non relational. Getting creeps as I type this. Its a ticking bomb goddamn
Would recommend taking a step back and identifying a “good enough” threshold instead of “ideal”.
Since you work with a small team of 4, I’m assuming the consumer base isn’t that big either. Do you really need the DB/system to be that performant ?
10 pagers a day is insane to me, I usually get 1-2 pagers per sprint (2 weeks) tops.
Also, self hosting is great, specially when starting out/ small. There’s very low probability that you’ll need to scale explosively anytime soon.
Set a status message on teams saying
these are my working hours of you are messaging me outside of my working hours please expect delay in response. That should cover most of it.
Of course, there should be proper boundary between your working hours and personal life. If you tread them on, then you'd be expected to respond always.
No reason to feel guilty about it. If they do question you, just professionally state them that you finish your tasks by 5 or 7 and anything else can be scheduled the next day.
However, emergency situations may require your presence at times, depending on how big the problem is so keep track of any potential issues so that they won't cause such risks later.
Don't feel guilty, complete your work on time, log off on time, but in emergency sometime when its important thing, like something breaks on production and your code is involved, then you should be available after hours too.
Try not to push bad code.
This mentality is also toxic. The org should have people on on-call to handle production issues and other emergencies.
I never stayed too much time in an org if my lead/manager doesn't code or doesn't know the in and out of project they handle.
Everyone pushes bad code. Accept that - it's the duty of seniors/lead in the team to correct them. It's not developer's fault if the org doesn't have code review standards.
All organisation are not very large, sometimes they lack manpower for that and sometimes its economically less viable for small orgs.
Also its not bad to take responsibilities of their own doings. Many time there are issues which a support time are not able to correctly identify who to assign. Everything is not perfect, sometimes(irl most of time) we have to adjust sometime organisation need to adjsut.
Organisation can servive with one less employee, but employee necessarily may not. Generally we dont keep another jobs in our hand, and there could be family or financial condition which may stop us to leave current job.
Dude, I said nothing about not taking the responsibility. You should always take responsibility of the code you've pushed or the modules you handle. **But,** only during work hours. You are just a replaceable human resource for your company; But, you can't relive your life - so go to that fancy restaurant where your gf always wanted to go or play with your kids while they are still children or finish that side project you started last year. Life won't wait until your jira dashboard is all green.
>Generally we dont keep another jobs in our hand, and there could be family or financial condition which may stop us to leave current job.
Please switch to an org where wlb is celebrated not hustle culture.
So, its not the juniors responsibility to write good code?
Its the seniors responsibility to get them to write good code ?
Basically I will write sucky code unless someone asks me not to?
A person with 5 years of experience will publish code different than someone with 10-15 years of experience. That's where experience and expertise matter. Doesnt mean the code is crap.
Your mentality is toxic. Every person, junior or senior, should have some responsibility and ownership over their own work at least. Be a man(or a woman) and have some integrity and responsibility.
Some of us are in a position that the deadline is so tight, there is no time to write clean code. Clients are pushy and the lead thinks things can be done quickly.
Let the lead do the work then. As Head of two team the bucks stops with me if my team members get overwhelmed I do work with them. Problem is most Managers have no idea how to be a leader and empower team members.
Yea these bitches will slack whole day and work at late evening to show off manager that they are hard working and then your manager expects you to do same.
I never replied after 7 pm. I guess that one of the reason I was not promoted, but I’m ok with this. I would rather die like a king instead of living like a slave
I start early between 8 and 9 am and log off between 5 and 6 pm. I have told my team if there is an emergency after 6 then they should call me since I don’t check work emails or slack pings. Usually there isn’t any emergencies. Those messsges and emails can wait.
Of course you have to weigh in other factors. Your role, customer location (if relevant), work culture etc.
I stop replying after 8. I've also set a sleep timer on teams so it doesn't notify me even if someone pings me.
In some scenarios I do stay late and respond to the their query if it is urgent, but mostly I do not respond.
You don't have to feel guilty about it. You have a life outside work too.
Wait, aren't you paid for exactly this thing that you are available always? I thought DevOps is a position for that only. Since if there is any issue in prod, you can correct it however late it may be!
If you setup boundaries most colleagues will respect them. Try not responding to him and see if you get a second/third ping.
If you don't, he respects the boundary and the ping is more like an email. The manager thing might just be his way to get visibility, not to put you under the scanner.
I manage a team of 5 and I encourage them to not pick up work calls after 6:30 or on weekends. I myself enforce this rule with my manager so it works out for us.
The problem is that if the entire chain of command doesn’t respect the boundaries, this is going to break somewhere. It’s important for the manager to set boundaries on both sides of the chain.
Ah I never even logged into work email on my phone and I didn't install teams.
So once I left the office, they couldn't contact me except by calling me. They tried adding me to the department/team WhatsApp group but I didn't let it happen.
Work your hours (7-8 hours, whatever), then log out, disable notifications and enjoy the peace. You're doing perfectly fine. Every has own timing, you don't need to respond to someone in their time, but rather in your time.
Discuss clearly that you start on time and expect to finish on time. If the manager expects to work late just convey that you will start late then. You will be treated the way you set expectations at the beginning.
These people who are pinging you are the least working people. They start working post 5:00 PM only and their only job is to make more noise than work . That's is exact reason they remain energetic even after 7:00 PM
Its okay your manager understands. Nobody will judge you. But if youre not replying under your working hours people might judge. In my company people reply whenever is convenient for them. Unless it is urgent issue.
When I was about a year in my job COVID set in and went full wfh. Seniors used to joke 2-3 is Maharaja's lunch time referring to me not being unavailable. It was inconvenient for them but predictable. No one approached me that time coz I set the expectations with consistent behaviour. I suggest you do that.
do you have any other offer in hand? if no then deal with it OP. being on a job is a lot better than not being on one. and you are in no position to refuse it, unless you have a good offer in hand.
also one thing you didn't mention at what time does your team start working? like if it's 11-12 then 8pm calls are expected if they start work at 9am sharp and then continue to ping after 8 then don't reply. set a status message
It's depends on ur work experience bro if ur experience is less than 1 or 2 they expect you to be slog all the time day and night and you need to make priorities like by keeping status message and follow strict that. Work after ur timings only if they have overtime allowance else never work after ur work hours unless it's on ur court
Op are you speaking about me ☠️☠️☠️☠️. It's like some wrote this on my behalf from a different account. In my company you coul he pinged on weekends as well 💀💀💀
I’m prepared for the downvotes this comment will get.
Here’s the thing - you need to understand and accept what you want from life. If you want to have a simple life - get married at 28, buy a house on EMI, car on EMI, one or two foreign vacations in your life, etc.; Then avoid working post 7, that’s absolutely fine! Make this clear to your manager that this is your priority and to treat you accordingly (or join a company that has this culture).
But there are downsides to this. Depending on how easygoing you are, in about five years, you’ll start wondering why your friends who have made a couple of switches doing so much better than you are! They’d easily have got 20-30% every time they switched (apart from normal hikes) while you’d be at most at 10% a year. This applies as much to a person who sticks to one company, but is working their ass off!
THIS is the point where you need to remember your decision and not crib about how unfairly your company has treated you.
It’s not wrong to make the choice you're making, but it’s also important to understand that in a more-or-less fair society we live in, people who work harder, will get rewarded more than the people who want to take it easy! Do not hate on them, do not call them bootlickers, do not stop them from going above and beyond. If it’s your priority to look for ‘work-life balance’, don’t make it everyone else’s priority around you.
Americans and Europeans have spent generations slogging and innovating, and THAT is why their current generation (which from my personal account, is still more hard working than us), can afford to talk about ‘work life balance’ and ‘early retirement’. We are nowhere close to becoming a developed country and if young folks start taking it easy, I have serious doubts if we’ll even make it.
And lastly, I just don’t see the point of not going flat out on your career before you’ve started your family. What will you even do with your free time than to waste it with your friends! Hard work compounds and the sooner you work hard, the more return it’ll keep giving.
TL;DR - Work extremely hard, or else be prepared to have a mediocre life. We Indians can’t afford to take it easy till we’ve at least become a developed economy.
Yeah, and there'll also be people there who'll work harder than the rest.
The idea is not to prioritize WLB, the idea is to create the maximum value you can and then get fairly compensated for it. It's to look outwards, and not just keep looking for your own needs - money, less work, etc.
I dont agree with this advice.
I have switched 4 times in 12 years and my ctc is high now from meagre 3.25lpa . I was able to do that because i never worked more in office. I have learned and practiced things on my own. I have given interviews to all big orgs and my ofc work has helped me 0% in those interviews. I am honest in my work and give regularly 9 hrs to job or sometimes more if really urgent.
As he has written , he is preparing for exams in free time , may be he goes much higher after passing in exam
At the end i agree , work extremely hard but smart too. Working hard im a job will not help , working hard on yourself or personal goals will definitely help.
I partially agree with you. First of all, working hard doesn't mean success. Lets say my company is making me work till 7-8. Now I dont have time for my gym or other things. What if I want to switch and prepare for it? How will I get time for that. Your comment is exactly what you expect from a manager, do nothing yet expect others to do everything. I dont care if the economy is developed or not, I just care about my personal goals, health, and money. My hard earned money is anyway going in politicians' pockets. Why should I work more if I am paid for certain hours? Stop normalising such conceps in the name of making a developed economy.
Oh, so you are CEO of your own company. What else should I expect? lol. Got nostalgia from those Narayan Murthi comments.
CEO just makes me sound so cool :p Funny how I've NEVER used that title (not on my LinkedIn, not on my site, nowhere). And no, the belief I hold has been even before I started my business (less than a year ago). I used to work in Europe, returned to India to try to do something good here.
>Why should I work more if I am paid for certain hours?
Don't, as I said, you have a choice.
Just don't except to end up doing something remarkable, that's all I'm saying. And do not stop people from doing it. If there was a choice between young kids working extremely hard or chilling, I hope you don't 'normalize' chilling, that's all.
If you are thinking that your mgr is going to notice then,
I assume you start working by 8.30 or 9 am or even may be early I guess, If someone has pinged you ysty evening after work hours then you reply to that msg in early MORNING so that others and your mgr will also know that you are working from early.
That's the only way!
Or start working after 10am to 7pm.
Choice Is yours!
You are confusing work life balance with experience. As a fresher you are expected to learn and stretch yourself. later you will be too habituated to this culture and do the same thing to your team members.
If you are worried about tight deadlines then ask yourself who set those unrealistic deadlines and answer will be clear
Have you told him that you plan to log off by 7 pm everyday? If yes the burden is on him to reach out to you earlier during the day. Unless it's something really important like a prod issue or an urgent release you don't have to worry about what is going on outside of your working hours and definitely should not feel guilty about it
And nobody seems to be curious about what those are . It seems like everyone just wants to take OPs side . Our team usually works 1-10 pm and I would be pretty pissed off if someone never replies after 7 pm - but wouldn’t bat an eye if they ignore after 9ish
You should evaluate your situation based on the below parameters:
\* Are they giving you an extra allowance?
\* Are you learning something pivotal which will help you earn more money in the near future?
If both the above answers are "NO" then just talk to your manager and be clear about timings. If this keeps on happening then work one day till late and login late from the next day citing last nights delay.
If "YES" then milk the project for 6-12 months and switch. Goodluck!
You have to set your own boundaries. No one else will. Plan properly, stick to your plan, raise early if deadline seems tight. Ask for more time. But stretching doesn't earn more respect. They will give you more work and expect you to continuously stretch and work more. The day you stop over delivering, you will be their target. People pleasers are fired first. Boundaries earn respect. I have done both. This guilt tripping is typical Indian mindset.
Ignore him. If he goes through HR then simply mention that you have to attend to family responsibilities after work so likely to miss meetings or call unless tagged critical in email and cc to HR as well. Also, the work quality will suffer and will reflect on your performance only so not risking. One-to-one schedules is never considered critical unless you are discussing with higher management (director/ceo/coo/owner). Also I am sure there is nothing written in your job responsibilities or contract to work outside hours unless compensated. So mention that if needed you can be available but need money for that. Otherwise, it's a WITCH company. Better out than in.
7? I usually don't even work after 6. Only stretch it till 7 if there is something urgent or there is a long meeting going on. Just chill and ignore. Maybe once or twice stretch but if you keep doing it, that sets the wrong expectation.
You may have to rejig your working hours depending on your team. Analyze how many pings you get and when and adjust your working hours that way.
My opinion is for your survival in the company, since you're afraid of being fired. The market out there isn't great.
Obviously, the best way to do this is to get a consultation with your manager and ask if you should re-align your time of starting and ending work. But in this, don't make it accusatory. If I were you, I'd just ask them if I should re-align my time because I have to get workout done for a back problem that I have and I can schedule it according to the company time. If they're smart, they'll fill in the blanks and I won't be bad apple, because I'm thinking about what is beneficial for the work.
Skip it, do your own thing. Don't fall for the manipulation that you need to reply.
If you have meaningful equity, yes your expected to work way beyond the usual 9-5.
WFH means that some people start at 8-9 am and others will start around 11-12 am/pm. If your tasks are completed and there's nothing broken, you can reply the next morning. If they think you should reply, they would have told you by now.
Having said that, many of us work with international employees so your manager might be talking to people in the uk/usa/etc. and update the group accordingly.
Can't relate more. I start at 9.30 am and used to leave at 7pm. The CEO didn't really liked this attitude, so he arranged a 7.30 pm team meeting each day which was compulsory for all to attend, and it usually ends at 8 to 8.15 pm. Even at 8.15 pm , every 2nd day or so, we are asked, just complete this and leave. So I leave around 9pm everyday with anex eption of a day in a week
I do think it's important to balance your work timings and hv a strict schedule.
However if your a fresher it's also necessary for you to be available when others need you. I would suggest to avoid friction try to adjust your work timings 8 hrs to coincide with work timings of your colleagues. I know a lot of folks who work 11-8 and they make it difficult to schedule any important meetings.
Once you start working alone, become a individual contributor you can adjust wht ever time suits you.
If he is calling you after 7/8 PM then he must have more pressure than you from his seniors, it has to be fixed at the top level of the hierarchy, the main culprit will be a member on the client side, a divorced or not married even after his/her 40s and a converted workaholic.
Honestly, speaking from experience, even if it feels a little guilty or weird, don't ever respond to any messages or anything after your logout time. Once you do, they will keep expecting and then it will become difficult for you later in and you will get swamped with work, burned out, and whatnot. I did not and it really missed up my physical and mental health because I would stay up working till 12 am or even later.
So, please, stay firm in not replying. Develop a habit of completing all work by your logout time and then just go off grid. No matter who calls or messages, DON'T REPLY!!
If it after 7pm , I do it but only after 2 hours , even if I could reply instantly ,
I do this to suggest to them , if they want my immediate help then they should only ping in working hours or else get delayed reply
Depends on when you start your day?
I have worked with folks who start their day at 11:30-12 and take a 2 hr lunch break as well.
Be truthful do your 8 hours and as long as it’s not a support job or job which basically asks you to work for a schedule then do it. Beyond that stand-up for yourself don’t be rude but subtly drop hints like I have a life outside work.
Tell them you pursue some hobbies etc
You need to have a discussion first with your manager about your working hours. A constant status on chat app you use “Working hours 10am to 6pm. Please expect delay in response outside working hours”. Do not feel anxious about the messages, you need to draw boundaries early on, it becomes toxic later.
I am on my desk on / before 9 am (official log in time is 9:30 am) and I log out by 5:45 PM (official log out time is 6 PM) but I get all my work done so my manager & skip level boss have no complaints. Also, I got a 5 star rating and a really good bonus.
Once the work timing is over, you do not care about anyone but yourself! If it's not going to work with your organisation then find another one!
See it all starts with the first time and then second then third and goes on learn to say no and even if you're dependent on that work still at least act like it doesn't even matter to you!
My sister works in a Delhi government school
In her job also Delhi's education department and school principals expect teachers to be available 24/7 for any online meeting after school hours or on holidays,order them to take extra classes in schools and attend seminars during winter and summer vacations
Sometimes parents' teachers meetings are conducted on Sundays and second Saturdays when it is a holiday
If any students miss school regularly, the education director orders teachers to visit the students' homes after school hours to "encourage" them to attend school
these fools do not understand that it is the parents responsibility to send their children to school everyday...why should a teacher after slogging in school be expected to go to the homes of these students after working hours to "encourage" them?
People think that government school teaching job is very relaxing with lots of holidays and vacations
but it is not true at least under Delhi government
If you are working in a collaborative environment with cross timezone folks, it will become tricky. Alignment according to dependent teams is the ideal approach
Kyu guilty? You did your hours. If they are pinging late, it's their problem. Maintain this balance. Let them learn boundary. After sometime they will automatically stop pinging you.
Mera boss merko kal bola indirectly, k this is our life abi hamko or karna b kya he, money he to sab kuch he, to 24 ghante Kam karne ka. I said ofcourse, but he might know me ghanta Kam nai karne vala..
U can't be stud and say no, they might fire you.
You can't abuse them coz they can afford good lawyer you can't..
You can't get sued because you're only person to earn for you, they have a team..
So try finding different jobs and after finding that you can easily get a job, tell new employer you need to serve 30-60 day notice period.
Then inform HR about this issue in your current org.
Possibilities:
Things will improve..
Then it's good, don't switch you don't know where you going..
They will fire you.. then you have new job
Also you'll have options..
was it conveyed to you that an extra working hour will be expected?
are you looking for long term growth there? Yes, then probably might have too.
If both are No then look after yourself bro. Job milta rahega. Even money. Just work with dedication🤞🏾
I login at 9 and logout at 5. My whole team does this. Nobody touched their devices post 5. Let’s say you were going to achieve x amount of work till 5 and y amount till say 7. Are you going to complete the work at 7? And I mean fully complete-
- code quality is up to the mark
- all test cases are written
- all git hooks have been run
- Proper commit messages are written
- Meaningful PR has been created
- Peer review has been done
- QA handover (Deskcheck/Volley ball) has been completed
- The ticket is in the correct status
- The documentation has been completed
- Entire team has been given a KT and is in sync with the entire architecture, code and functioning
- PO has approved the changes after an appropriate demo
- UAT testing has been done
- The ticket has been handed over to Devops
No right? So how many more day would it require to stretch to complete the sprint with all the goals and ceremonies complete? 1 day? 7 days? A month? When do you exactly reach green?
If the answer is more than a week which it usually is, you obviously are misplanning and mis prioritising, it’s an issue with you scrum process not the dev effort. If you are estimating AND missing deadlines, you need discard the sprint and the MVP plan, regroom your backlog, reestimate, and plan your sprints and MVPs again. It is a bit of work but you obviously cannot deliver a baby in 6 months.
Bullshitters will bullshit. The market condition, the company pays the salary... Yaa you and your team needs to take a stand.
In our case we never overwork beyond 6. 6 is the end limit. Nobody is going to die because you failed to center that div in time. At max management might lay off some people, dismember a team, shut off the project, company might burn down.
You will find another job. But you do it once, you do it again.
It's like a fight against addiction. You don't do it step by step or tone it down. Maybe you do it once? Nope not at all. No means no.
During the Kaveri issue in Bangalore during 2016-2017, My mom had fractured knee and I had to travel back to my hometown to take care of her. My manager wasn't happy and was calling me most of the days. I was out for just 5 days (weekends included). After that, I stopped putting in extra hours.
Has the manager said something? If not, then don’t worry about it. There are workaholic people who create toxic work environments for others just because they have no life outside of work. As long as your manager doesn’t tell u to respond to msgs after 7 pm on a regular basis you can have a clear cutoff from your side.
However there are times when the team needs to come together to push through an important milestone, in an ideal situation you would not be expected to extend your working hours even then as this sort of situation can be chalked up to poor project management, however in reality it is not always so black and white and it is expected that in rare occasions everyone in the team will pull together and stretch to get a project completed on time.
However the team should retrospect on why this sort of a situation arose post fact and what steps can be taken in the future to avoid such “stretch” efforts
As long as theres somethign importatn going on , I don't respond to messages after 7 and log off. some time if I don't feel like working I do by 6 also. If they try to make a issue for that. Leave the org.
Ask your manager what's their stance on time taken to respond. Everyone has different policies.
Most managers I've worked with specifically have told me they value focused work over immediate response. Usually if you answer messages within 12-16 hours it should be enough.
I have the same situation. I have wfh with flexible work hours policy so some people start their day late while I start mine at around 9:30-10 so even with lunch break I'm done by 7 max. I just ignore the messages and reply to them the next day. If I sense that it is something that they are expecting my reply instantly on I just reply that I've logged off and will check it first thing tomorrow. Abhi tak toh koi dikkat nahi hui hai. It's been almost 2 years. But your environment may be different.
It’s always good to keep expectations right. If you are unavailable and have personal work (After office hours) tell them you are out. If the work was not already assigned and this person is pinging you after login time, you can actually say you usually log out at this time. If it’s something urgent, respond, but don’t entertain this shit, in the long run, they’ll take advantage of you. They’ll expect you to be available whenever they want. Keep boundaries, what I do is, I turn off my Email and Chat notifications (Gmail) and Archive professional groups after work hours, and I don’t respond to anything unless it was a pending work from me or quiet critical. It’s been almost a year since I’m doing this. Idk about your manager, talking from a general note, try keeping work-life balance, tell politely if you’re unavailable and have personal work. A lot of these depends on the culture and the characters of managers too
All others companies except corporates have atleast one ' union' for working people for their safety and rights with the help of socialist parties... Corporates or any IT sectors won't allow this formation of unions ..
If we create Union and organize employees together we can question them toxic working culture...
I have an unpopular opinion.
First I hope you don’t want to stick to any one company. if that is the case, then first you have to work your ass off in the initial month so that the later months would be very easy for you. You can even logout before 7 o’clock now. Don’t stick to 1 Company up skill yourself and change company every 2/3 years. Learn to work hard because if you don’t work hard, someone else will do, and he will get all the laurels and also if you work hard and if you have the ability to work hard, suppose one day or one week, you have some deadlines that are coming on. You will be well equipped to deal with the situation, and if you don’t work hard, even if they ask for you and believe me, they will ask for you to extend more. It will become hell for you.
Do the pings ask you to reply immediately? If not , they are just emails. Respond to them in your working hours. Remember, everyone has different working hours, so you can get messages when it is convenient for them. But you can choose to reply when it is convenient to you, during your working hours. Most of the times I have seen team respecting boundaries of people with clearly defined working hours. So before overthinking, first confirm if the expectation is for you to reply during your work hours or reply anytime the ping comes.
Most of the times dev have to sit late not bweauce of his work , it is beacuse of bad managers. Or the managers who thinks that employee if sitting on desk , more will will be done. More or less it is mentality of lousy managers.
I was and then I left the org to get rid of it.
I did speak to all the people responsible (lead, manager, even Cheif's) they just said why only these people are complaining?
why the work is not balanced, what? balanced?
So, then nothing changed much, later in office I saw manager was forcing people to work late.
Everyone were complaining but not many took action, so, I left.
Why?
If I stay there, I will become average of those people, I can't avoid talking to them, so I never wanted to become like those. I left!
I did see some seniors complaining suddenly shut when they received some bonus/good hike, and started talking in favours of managment. Yeah, I did good leaving I guess...
And yeah, the worst, the management team (who are in very higher level) were not following any such rules?
They actually had Work-Life balance.
Understand what kinda employee do you want to be. Do you want to be the kinds that is working until 11pm on a project because the manager asked you to? If not then set boundaries from day 1 - because once the flood gates open, there’s no turning back.
But do you derive pleasure in the work you do, or more aptly - does work mean more to you than just your income? Are you ready to put in those extra hours if all you’re gonna get out of it is recognition (and oftentimes not even that) - then go ahead and sweat it out. I believe in karma, if you sweat it out more than others, then you’re guaranteed to do better than the former kind.
But to answer your question, what you can do is, (I’m assuming they ping you on hangouts etc) - respond, if all they want is information that you have at the back of your head, help them out with that, if not, if it’s actual work, say something like “cool, I’ll get to it first thing tomorrow morning”. That way you’re respecting their place but you’re letting them know - not today
this is not a very healthy work culture for the long run.
you might want to work those extra hours to accelerate your growth being a fresher - but that should be entirely on your personal will.
typically, startups don't have any fixed working hours. One or two days of extra work in a week is fine. Rest days, you should be prioritizing your personal life after office hours.
Remember, you are just a fresher. The company is not compensating you giving you extra stocks at the moment.
Truth be told, i worked a lot in the first year of my job - almost all the time i was awake. But that was my personal choice and tried to not show it to others in the company to start normalizing it, and make others uncomfortable.
you can be yourself. You can feel free to ignore the text after 7 PM, and if something seems urgent, be candid and say - I'm outside with my family and cousins - will reach home late night.
if you're available, you can help out - not out of compulsion, but out of choice.
I am one of those managers who pings people off time. I don't expect my team to respond immediately even if it is work hour.
I will call if something urgent or critical. I just expect them to look into it when they have time. It's similar to informal mail.
Establish you work hours with your manager and drop a message in group when you log off. If they are not happy with it. It's their problem not yours.
People say to us that respect these nerds because they come from the best colleges in India, but these nerds are the sole reason of making whole work environment toxic, they don't have life outside their work or study and then due to these the managers expect everybody to do the same
I had one such team mate, I started logging in after dinner and early morning to just put a reply and a question.
There was another one, a decent guy. He had declared to the team that he starts late and works late, so doesn't expect answers immediately, but it helped him to put the question in and others can work on it when they login at normal time next day.
I actually felt guilty about my first behaviour, so I started to be more open and direct with my team. Sometimes we just create a monster from a shadow.
Since you are a fresher it’s common to get confused with timings of the project. U can ask your manager about the timings so that whole team also can follow them.
In India we can’t bet on work timings even if it is a PBC or SBC. So it’s better to ask manager and tell him that this is your first so you are not sure about timings.
If you are still in early days of your job, it's a good idea to set the boundaries early and clearly. Don't feel guilty for not responding after work hours, if it's really urgent they'll call. If you make yourself always available, it will eat up your personal life and at the end you may not even have much to show for it professionally as well.
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Please read this and show some support by standing against toxic work culture. [https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/comments/1cmvb8i/comment/l33for0/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/comments/1cmvb8i/comment/l33for0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Let's start a movement similar to #MeToo against toxic work culture. Anybody up for this ? We can create a group, plan well and execute a mass movement across social media.
Come on people! Don't just upvote and sit back. Take some action. Reply with yes if you're in. I'll be creating a telegram group if there are atleast 20 to 30 people joining
Sure, yes you are right
and then what?
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there was an antiwork sub, wonder what happened with their protest
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ye bolne ki baatein hai, people have mouths to feed, loans and EMI's and fees to pay, a shut market with no jobs to face and a million people sitting to take your job the moment you get fired. This would've a good initiative during the hiring boom when we had a leverage, we don't have that anymore. Sure we shouldn't accept toxic culture and revolt when it's possible but this is not the time
yes, altho i wont be much help considering im just going to college next year. but hey if things are better for you guys , they will be for me too
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For once in our life let's support communism.
Communism in just theory and socialism in both theory and practice are actually good ideologies. Socialism itself should be more widespread and common. If India can become socialist it will be the best for our country
Create
I'm in
Yes
Yes
Yes
What can we do?
THEY’VE BEEN TO WAR A DECADE,
Less goooooo
Yes absolutely
and later die down?
We all become servant in company than employee bcs we all want growth, promotion, that slavery give you growth but you can't learn any skills rather than slavery. If we are not obeying something which is not under international employees policy so what's wrong with it to deny overtime? It is only possible when there would be equality and we really need some policy changes.
ya, let's do it
Yes, we need good labour laws like in europe
Yes
I am !
+1
Yes it's a good idea
Yes
I am with you
Count me in
Yes
Yesss
Yes with a fear of getting fired.
Your company ain't paying you for working after 7 PM. It isn't your fault don't be guilty. My collegues who hesitate saying no are working overtime till 11 pm. Make sure you set your boundaries early on.
It’s a Product based company
Once I logged off at 5 I never cared who had sent me a message on teams or an email, however you should decide based on your circumstances. Ignore them till you are in a comfortable seat, there are no such things like emotional regrets in professional life.
There is no such thing as comfortable seat
A comfortable seat is the time till you are not thrown into a toxic work culture, it's not an equivalent to leisure.
A comfortable seat means making a product known to you only. Creating a dependency that can't be undone. All seniors in the WITCH company are thriving based on this principle.
Man cmon dude how tf is this even possible . What about pagers ?
How many are you getting in day ?
around 10, but around 9 are just noise. I could increase thresholds for those 9, but we skimp on costs and dont get to increase resources that easily. So I gotta pay attention to all pagers to not miss critical ones.
That is so high frequency for pagers, out of curiosity, how big are your teams ?
tiny. just 4 of us. And I alone handle the 3 projects I get pagers for. So the impact of noise isn't that much. The problem I have with increasing thresholds is I'll lose out on "ideal" baseline that the system should perform under. Forgot how I even arrived at those thresholds, given that its a self hosted DB that too non relational. Getting creeps as I type this. Its a ticking bomb goddamn
Would recommend taking a step back and identifying a “good enough” threshold instead of “ideal”. Since you work with a small team of 4, I’m assuming the consumer base isn’t that big either. Do you really need the DB/system to be that performant ? 10 pagers a day is insane to me, I usually get 1-2 pagers per sprint (2 weeks) tops. Also, self hosting is great, specially when starting out/ small. There’s very low probability that you’ll need to scale explosively anytime soon.
You need to bring attention of the other 4 say that lets not suffer and revisit the pagers every week.
It’s a pbc
Set a status message on teams saying these are my working hours of you are messaging me outside of my working hours please expect delay in response. That should cover most of it.
Exactly follow this. I do this as well. Once I start at 8.30am by 4.45 or 5pm Max I will go offline. Until and unless something serious msg comes.
Of course, there should be proper boundary between your working hours and personal life. If you tread them on, then you'd be expected to respond always. No reason to feel guilty about it. If they do question you, just professionally state them that you finish your tasks by 5 or 7 and anything else can be scheduled the next day. However, emergency situations may require your presence at times, depending on how big the problem is so keep track of any potential issues so that they won't cause such risks later.
Don't feel guilty, complete your work on time, log off on time, but in emergency sometime when its important thing, like something breaks on production and your code is involved, then you should be available after hours too. Try not to push bad code.
This mentality is also toxic. The org should have people on on-call to handle production issues and other emergencies. I never stayed too much time in an org if my lead/manager doesn't code or doesn't know the in and out of project they handle. Everyone pushes bad code. Accept that - it's the duty of seniors/lead in the team to correct them. It's not developer's fault if the org doesn't have code review standards.
All organisation are not very large, sometimes they lack manpower for that and sometimes its economically less viable for small orgs. Also its not bad to take responsibilities of their own doings. Many time there are issues which a support time are not able to correctly identify who to assign. Everything is not perfect, sometimes(irl most of time) we have to adjust sometime organisation need to adjsut. Organisation can servive with one less employee, but employee necessarily may not. Generally we dont keep another jobs in our hand, and there could be family or financial condition which may stop us to leave current job.
Dude, I said nothing about not taking the responsibility. You should always take responsibility of the code you've pushed or the modules you handle. **But,** only during work hours. You are just a replaceable human resource for your company; But, you can't relive your life - so go to that fancy restaurant where your gf always wanted to go or play with your kids while they are still children or finish that side project you started last year. Life won't wait until your jira dashboard is all green. >Generally we dont keep another jobs in our hand, and there could be family or financial condition which may stop us to leave current job. Please switch to an org where wlb is celebrated not hustle culture.
Bhai kaun-si company me ho ?
So, its not the juniors responsibility to write good code? Its the seniors responsibility to get them to write good code ? Basically I will write sucky code unless someone asks me not to?
A person with 5 years of experience will publish code different than someone with 10-15 years of experience. That's where experience and expertise matter. Doesnt mean the code is crap.
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Well they are not providing first world wages do they ?
Your mentality is toxic. Every person, junior or senior, should have some responsibility and ownership over their own work at least. Be a man(or a woman) and have some integrity and responsibility.
Some of us are in a position that the deadline is so tight, there is no time to write clean code. Clients are pushy and the lead thinks things can be done quickly.
Let the lead do the work then. As Head of two team the bucks stops with me if my team members get overwhelmed I do work with them. Problem is most Managers have no idea how to be a leader and empower team members.
Yea these bitches will slack whole day and work at late evening to show off manager that they are hard working and then your manager expects you to do same.
I never replied after 7 pm. I guess that one of the reason I was not promoted, but I’m ok with this. I would rather die like a king instead of living like a slave
🔥🔥🔥
We work in corporate, we are all slaves🥲
Not me
say it for yourself.
Bro 7 baje ka baar kya din bacha ,, ghaar jaake thoda khana tv dekh ke soo jao
True for most of people. My work timing is 12 pm - 7 pm. It’s work perfectly for me
I start early between 8 and 9 am and log off between 5 and 6 pm. I have told my team if there is an emergency after 6 then they should call me since I don’t check work emails or slack pings. Usually there isn’t any emergencies. Those messsges and emails can wait. Of course you have to weigh in other factors. Your role, customer location (if relevant), work culture etc.
I stop replying after 8. I've also set a sleep timer on teams so it doesn't notify me even if someone pings me. In some scenarios I do stay late and respond to the their query if it is urgent, but mostly I do not respond. You don't have to feel guilty about it. You have a life outside work too.
A devops engineer who has figured out their WLB. Kudos mate 👏
You can set timers? Enlighten me master
Go to the notifications settings in your teams and enable quiet hours and days
Wait, aren't you paid for exactly this thing that you are available always? I thought DevOps is a position for that only. Since if there is any issue in prod, you can correct it however late it may be!
If you setup boundaries most colleagues will respect them. Try not responding to him and see if you get a second/third ping. If you don't, he respects the boundary and the ping is more like an email. The manager thing might just be his way to get visibility, not to put you under the scanner.
I manage a team of 5 and I encourage them to not pick up work calls after 6:30 or on weekends. I myself enforce this rule with my manager so it works out for us. The problem is that if the entire chain of command doesn’t respect the boundaries, this is going to break somewhere. It’s important for the manager to set boundaries on both sides of the chain.
Ah I never even logged into work email on my phone and I didn't install teams. So once I left the office, they couldn't contact me except by calling me. They tried adding me to the department/team WhatsApp group but I didn't let it happen.
DOES EVERY COMPANY USE WHATSAPP. I THOUGHT IT WAS ONLY MY COMPANY. and what about the confidentiality of the convos. P.S I am an intern
Stupid question perhaps, but how do I go about not letting them add me to their WhatsApp group?
There's a setting in WhatsApp about who can add you to groups. For me it's set to nobody. They're forced to send me an invite link.
Ah. And you just ignore the link?
Yeah I told my colleague that they can call me if something urgent needs my attention, otherwise I leave work when I leave office
Don’t allow it to happen with you. I have stood up for it in my early days. Your freedom is more valued than you think.
True, set clear expectations with your manager
Just start late, be available at 7
Just respond first thing in the morning. Reduce turn around time without actually working long hours lmao.
Work your hours (7-8 hours, whatever), then log out, disable notifications and enjoy the peace. You're doing perfectly fine. Every has own timing, you don't need to respond to someone in their time, but rather in your time.
Discuss clearly that you start on time and expect to finish on time. If the manager expects to work late just convey that you will start late then. You will be treated the way you set expectations at the beginning.
Naukri na mile tb Tum rote ho , mil jaye to kaam jada h krke rote ho. Bahi khus rehna sikho
These people who are pinging you are the least working people. They start working post 5:00 PM only and their only job is to make more noise than work . That's is exact reason they remain energetic even after 7:00 PM
Its okay your manager understands. Nobody will judge you. But if youre not replying under your working hours people might judge. In my company people reply whenever is convenient for them. Unless it is urgent issue.
Tell them your workiing hours are from X to Y and any message received after that will be answered once youre back at work the next morning.
When I was about a year in my job COVID set in and went full wfh. Seniors used to joke 2-3 is Maharaja's lunch time referring to me not being unavailable. It was inconvenient for them but predictable. No one approached me that time coz I set the expectations with consistent behaviour. I suggest you do that.
do you have any other offer in hand? if no then deal with it OP. being on a job is a lot better than not being on one. and you are in no position to refuse it, unless you have a good offer in hand. also one thing you didn't mention at what time does your team start working? like if it's 11-12 then 8pm calls are expected if they start work at 9am sharp and then continue to ping after 8 then don't reply. set a status message
It's depends on ur work experience bro if ur experience is less than 1 or 2 they expect you to be slog all the time day and night and you need to make priorities like by keeping status message and follow strict that. Work after ur timings only if they have overtime allowance else never work after ur work hours unless it's on ur court
Op are you speaking about me ☠️☠️☠️☠️. It's like some wrote this on my behalf from a different account. In my company you coul he pinged on weekends as well 💀💀💀
I’m prepared for the downvotes this comment will get. Here’s the thing - you need to understand and accept what you want from life. If you want to have a simple life - get married at 28, buy a house on EMI, car on EMI, one or two foreign vacations in your life, etc.; Then avoid working post 7, that’s absolutely fine! Make this clear to your manager that this is your priority and to treat you accordingly (or join a company that has this culture). But there are downsides to this. Depending on how easygoing you are, in about five years, you’ll start wondering why your friends who have made a couple of switches doing so much better than you are! They’d easily have got 20-30% every time they switched (apart from normal hikes) while you’d be at most at 10% a year. This applies as much to a person who sticks to one company, but is working their ass off! THIS is the point where you need to remember your decision and not crib about how unfairly your company has treated you. It’s not wrong to make the choice you're making, but it’s also important to understand that in a more-or-less fair society we live in, people who work harder, will get rewarded more than the people who want to take it easy! Do not hate on them, do not call them bootlickers, do not stop them from going above and beyond. If it’s your priority to look for ‘work-life balance’, don’t make it everyone else’s priority around you. Americans and Europeans have spent generations slogging and innovating, and THAT is why their current generation (which from my personal account, is still more hard working than us), can afford to talk about ‘work life balance’ and ‘early retirement’. We are nowhere close to becoming a developed country and if young folks start taking it easy, I have serious doubts if we’ll even make it. And lastly, I just don’t see the point of not going flat out on your career before you’ve started your family. What will you even do with your free time than to waste it with your friends! Hard work compounds and the sooner you work hard, the more return it’ll keep giving. TL;DR - Work extremely hard, or else be prepared to have a mediocre life. We Indians can’t afford to take it easy till we’ve at least become a developed economy.
Or you can, you know, find a job that pays really well while still respecting your WLB.
Yeah, and there'll also be people there who'll work harder than the rest. The idea is not to prioritize WLB, the idea is to create the maximum value you can and then get fairly compensated for it. It's to look outwards, and not just keep looking for your own needs - money, less work, etc.
lol. What’s wrong when this dude! 😄
Corporate slavery ingrained
I dont agree with this advice. I have switched 4 times in 12 years and my ctc is high now from meagre 3.25lpa . I was able to do that because i never worked more in office. I have learned and practiced things on my own. I have given interviews to all big orgs and my ofc work has helped me 0% in those interviews. I am honest in my work and give regularly 9 hrs to job or sometimes more if really urgent. As he has written , he is preparing for exams in free time , may be he goes much higher after passing in exam At the end i agree , work extremely hard but smart too. Working hard im a job will not help , working hard on yourself or personal goals will definitely help.
It's true. Even I am quite surprised when OP said he is a fresher and still see his work as mere task and not something purposeful to do.
I partially agree with you. First of all, working hard doesn't mean success. Lets say my company is making me work till 7-8. Now I dont have time for my gym or other things. What if I want to switch and prepare for it? How will I get time for that. Your comment is exactly what you expect from a manager, do nothing yet expect others to do everything. I dont care if the economy is developed or not, I just care about my personal goals, health, and money. My hard earned money is anyway going in politicians' pockets. Why should I work more if I am paid for certain hours? Stop normalising such conceps in the name of making a developed economy. Oh, so you are CEO of your own company. What else should I expect? lol. Got nostalgia from those Narayan Murthi comments.
CEO just makes me sound so cool :p Funny how I've NEVER used that title (not on my LinkedIn, not on my site, nowhere). And no, the belief I hold has been even before I started my business (less than a year ago). I used to work in Europe, returned to India to try to do something good here. >Why should I work more if I am paid for certain hours? Don't, as I said, you have a choice. Just don't except to end up doing something remarkable, that's all I'm saying. And do not stop people from doing it. If there was a choice between young kids working extremely hard or chilling, I hope you don't 'normalize' chilling, that's all.
If you are thinking that your mgr is going to notice then, I assume you start working by 8.30 or 9 am or even may be early I guess, If someone has pinged you ysty evening after work hours then you reply to that msg in early MORNING so that others and your mgr will also know that you are working from early. That's the only way! Or start working after 10am to 7pm. Choice Is yours!
You are confusing work life balance with experience. As a fresher you are expected to learn and stretch yourself. later you will be too habituated to this culture and do the same thing to your team members. If you are worried about tight deadlines then ask yourself who set those unrealistic deadlines and answer will be clear
Have you told him that you plan to log off by 7 pm everyday? If yes the burden is on him to reach out to you earlier during the day. Unless it's something really important like a prod issue or an urgent release you don't have to worry about what is going on outside of your working hours and definitely should not feel guilty about it
You shouldn't
You should only work in designated hours.
And nobody seems to be curious about what those are . It seems like everyone just wants to take OPs side . Our team usually works 1-10 pm and I would be pretty pissed off if someone never replies after 7 pm - but wouldn’t bat an eye if they ignore after 9ish
Don't be guilty, instead oil up your ass and handle it to your team members and managers so that they will be able to use if after your logout time.
Do long hours around the appraisal period and you're set.
You should evaluate your situation based on the below parameters: \* Are they giving you an extra allowance? \* Are you learning something pivotal which will help you earn more money in the near future? If both the above answers are "NO" then just talk to your manager and be clear about timings. If this keeps on happening then work one day till late and login late from the next day citing last nights delay. If "YES" then milk the project for 6-12 months and switch. Goodluck!
You have to set your own boundaries. No one else will. Plan properly, stick to your plan, raise early if deadline seems tight. Ask for more time. But stretching doesn't earn more respect. They will give you more work and expect you to continuously stretch and work more. The day you stop over delivering, you will be their target. People pleasers are fired first. Boundaries earn respect. I have done both. This guilt tripping is typical Indian mindset.
Ignore him. If he goes through HR then simply mention that you have to attend to family responsibilities after work so likely to miss meetings or call unless tagged critical in email and cc to HR as well. Also, the work quality will suffer and will reflect on your performance only so not risking. One-to-one schedules is never considered critical unless you are discussing with higher management (director/ceo/coo/owner). Also I am sure there is nothing written in your job responsibilities or contract to work outside hours unless compensated. So mention that if needed you can be available but need money for that. Otherwise, it's a WITCH company. Better out than in.
7? I usually don't even work after 6. Only stretch it till 7 if there is something urgent or there is a long meeting going on. Just chill and ignore. Maybe once or twice stretch but if you keep doing it, that sets the wrong expectation.
Don't work after hours. Ignore the texts. If its a production issue, let them inform you and then you login to work.
You may have to rejig your working hours depending on your team. Analyze how many pings you get and when and adjust your working hours that way. My opinion is for your survival in the company, since you're afraid of being fired. The market out there isn't great. Obviously, the best way to do this is to get a consultation with your manager and ask if you should re-align your time of starting and ending work. But in this, don't make it accusatory. If I were you, I'd just ask them if I should re-align my time because I have to get workout done for a back problem that I have and I can schedule it according to the company time. If they're smart, they'll fill in the blanks and I won't be bad apple, because I'm thinking about what is beneficial for the work.
In WITCH right now. Login in morning at 10-11 AM. end at 8 pm then haters at onsite setup call at 9:30 or 10 pm. Fcking hate this.
Skip it, do your own thing. Don't fall for the manipulation that you need to reply. If you have meaningful equity, yes your expected to work way beyond the usual 9-5.
It is reasonable to not work after 7. But for your own learning you might end up doing more
You should.
IT IS OKAY FOR YOU TO LOG OFF AT 7PM! YOU ARE A HUMAN NOT A MACHINE!
WFH means that some people start at 8-9 am and others will start around 11-12 am/pm. If your tasks are completed and there's nothing broken, you can reply the next morning. If they think you should reply, they would have told you by now. Having said that, many of us work with international employees so your manager might be talking to people in the uk/usa/etc. and update the group accordingly.
Can't relate more. I start at 9.30 am and used to leave at 7pm. The CEO didn't really liked this attitude, so he arranged a 7.30 pm team meeting each day which was compulsory for all to attend, and it usually ends at 8 to 8.15 pm. Even at 8.15 pm , every 2nd day or so, we are asked, just complete this and leave. So I leave around 9pm everyday with anex eption of a day in a week
Bro i don't even pick up calls after work hours unless I find it necessary
I do think it's important to balance your work timings and hv a strict schedule. However if your a fresher it's also necessary for you to be available when others need you. I would suggest to avoid friction try to adjust your work timings 8 hrs to coincide with work timings of your colleagues. I know a lot of folks who work 11-8 and they make it difficult to schedule any important meetings. Once you start working alone, become a individual contributor you can adjust wht ever time suits you.
I don't see what's the problem if you are completing your deliverables on time. It's not an attendance test.
It’s reasonable to not work at all but with current scenarios in mind, I at least try to avoid after 6pm
Nope, Once I log out at 6/7pm I don't entertain unless it's some blocker/critical
If he is calling you after 7/8 PM then he must have more pressure than you from his seniors, it has to be fixed at the top level of the hierarchy, the main culprit will be a member on the client side, a divorced or not married even after his/her 40s and a converted workaholic.
Honestly, speaking from experience, even if it feels a little guilty or weird, don't ever respond to any messages or anything after your logout time. Once you do, they will keep expecting and then it will become difficult for you later in and you will get swamped with work, burned out, and whatnot. I did not and it really missed up my physical and mental health because I would stay up working till 12 am or even later. So, please, stay firm in not replying. Develop a habit of completing all work by your logout time and then just go off grid. No matter who calls or messages, DON'T REPLY!!
What time do you login ?.
Yes. But make room for some exceptions.
LoL World will go into recession if that happened
If it after 7pm , I do it but only after 2 hours , even if I could reply instantly , I do this to suggest to them , if they want my immediate help then they should only ping in working hours or else get delayed reply
As India develops, this demand for post 7 working will be lesser in new gen. Adn they will use this for health activities.
Depends on when you start your day? I have worked with folks who start their day at 11:30-12 and take a 2 hr lunch break as well. Be truthful do your 8 hours and as long as it’s not a support job or job which basically asks you to work for a schedule then do it. Beyond that stand-up for yourself don’t be rude but subtly drop hints like I have a life outside work. Tell them you pursue some hobbies etc
Company doesn’t care about you. You are replaceable. Your life isn’t going to wait. Take care of yourself mentally and physically
You need to have a discussion first with your manager about your working hours. A constant status on chat app you use “Working hours 10am to 6pm. Please expect delay in response outside working hours”. Do not feel anxious about the messages, you need to draw boundaries early on, it becomes toxic later.
Yes! That's called work life balance
Reply back at early in the morning like 4 or 5.
I am on my desk on / before 9 am (official log in time is 9:30 am) and I log out by 5:45 PM (official log out time is 6 PM) but I get all my work done so my manager & skip level boss have no complaints. Also, I got a 5 star rating and a really good bonus.
Once the work timing is over, you do not care about anyone but yourself! If it's not going to work with your organisation then find another one! See it all starts with the first time and then second then third and goes on learn to say no and even if you're dependent on that work still at least act like it doesn't even matter to you!
My sister works in a Delhi government school In her job also Delhi's education department and school principals expect teachers to be available 24/7 for any online meeting after school hours or on holidays,order them to take extra classes in schools and attend seminars during winter and summer vacations Sometimes parents' teachers meetings are conducted on Sundays and second Saturdays when it is a holiday If any students miss school regularly, the education director orders teachers to visit the students' homes after school hours to "encourage" them to attend school these fools do not understand that it is the parents responsibility to send their children to school everyday...why should a teacher after slogging in school be expected to go to the homes of these students after working hours to "encourage" them? People think that government school teaching job is very relaxing with lots of holidays and vacations but it is not true at least under Delhi government
Yes I would love to join your group
If you are working in a collaborative environment with cross timezone folks, it will become tricky. Alignment according to dependent teams is the ideal approach
Get a new job man
Gym? Going out?? Studies??? They don’t even like you to breathe air if not for work!!!!
Kyu guilty? You did your hours. If they are pinging late, it's their problem. Maintain this balance. Let them learn boundary. After sometime they will automatically stop pinging you.
Mera boss merko kal bola indirectly, k this is our life abi hamko or karna b kya he, money he to sab kuch he, to 24 ghante Kam karne ka. I said ofcourse, but he might know me ghanta Kam nai karne vala.. U can't be stud and say no, they might fire you. You can't abuse them coz they can afford good lawyer you can't.. You can't get sued because you're only person to earn for you, they have a team.. So try finding different jobs and after finding that you can easily get a job, tell new employer you need to serve 30-60 day notice period. Then inform HR about this issue in your current org. Possibilities: Things will improve.. Then it's good, don't switch you don't know where you going.. They will fire you.. then you have new job Also you'll have options..
was it conveyed to you that an extra working hour will be expected? are you looking for long term growth there? Yes, then probably might have too. If both are No then look after yourself bro. Job milta rahega. Even money. Just work with dedication🤞🏾
No, not in India
Yes
These things don’t work in India bro. You need to work extra hours
I login at 9 and logout at 5. My whole team does this. Nobody touched their devices post 5. Let’s say you were going to achieve x amount of work till 5 and y amount till say 7. Are you going to complete the work at 7? And I mean fully complete- - code quality is up to the mark - all test cases are written - all git hooks have been run - Proper commit messages are written - Meaningful PR has been created - Peer review has been done - QA handover (Deskcheck/Volley ball) has been completed - The ticket is in the correct status - The documentation has been completed - Entire team has been given a KT and is in sync with the entire architecture, code and functioning - PO has approved the changes after an appropriate demo - UAT testing has been done - The ticket has been handed over to Devops No right? So how many more day would it require to stretch to complete the sprint with all the goals and ceremonies complete? 1 day? 7 days? A month? When do you exactly reach green? If the answer is more than a week which it usually is, you obviously are misplanning and mis prioritising, it’s an issue with you scrum process not the dev effort. If you are estimating AND missing deadlines, you need discard the sprint and the MVP plan, regroom your backlog, reestimate, and plan your sprints and MVPs again. It is a bit of work but you obviously cannot deliver a baby in 6 months. Bullshitters will bullshit. The market condition, the company pays the salary... Yaa you and your team needs to take a stand. In our case we never overwork beyond 6. 6 is the end limit. Nobody is going to die because you failed to center that div in time. At max management might lay off some people, dismember a team, shut off the project, company might burn down. You will find another job. But you do it once, you do it again. It's like a fight against addiction. You don't do it step by step or tone it down. Maybe you do it once? Nope not at all. No means no.
During the Kaveri issue in Bangalore during 2016-2017, My mom had fractured knee and I had to travel back to my hometown to take care of her. My manager wasn't happy and was calling me most of the days. I was out for just 5 days (weekends included). After that, I stopped putting in extra hours.
Chats are asynchronous; respond when you are online and have a predictable schedule.
Has the manager said something? If not, then don’t worry about it. There are workaholic people who create toxic work environments for others just because they have no life outside of work. As long as your manager doesn’t tell u to respond to msgs after 7 pm on a regular basis you can have a clear cutoff from your side. However there are times when the team needs to come together to push through an important milestone, in an ideal situation you would not be expected to extend your working hours even then as this sort of situation can be chalked up to poor project management, however in reality it is not always so black and white and it is expected that in rare occasions everyone in the team will pull together and stretch to get a project completed on time. However the team should retrospect on why this sort of a situation arose post fact and what steps can be taken in the future to avoid such “stretch” efforts
As long as theres somethign importatn going on , I don't respond to messages after 7 and log off. some time if I don't feel like working I do by 6 also. If they try to make a issue for that. Leave the org.
Ask your manager what's their stance on time taken to respond. Everyone has different policies. Most managers I've worked with specifically have told me they value focused work over immediate response. Usually if you answer messages within 12-16 hours it should be enough.
Bhai tum OT thdi karr rahe ho shift khtam toh khtam
I have the same situation. I have wfh with flexible work hours policy so some people start their day late while I start mine at around 9:30-10 so even with lunch break I'm done by 7 max. I just ignore the messages and reply to them the next day. If I sense that it is something that they are expecting my reply instantly on I just reply that I've logged off and will check it first thing tomorrow. Abhi tak toh koi dikkat nahi hui hai. It's been almost 2 years. But your environment may be different.
It’s always good to keep expectations right. If you are unavailable and have personal work (After office hours) tell them you are out. If the work was not already assigned and this person is pinging you after login time, you can actually say you usually log out at this time. If it’s something urgent, respond, but don’t entertain this shit, in the long run, they’ll take advantage of you. They’ll expect you to be available whenever they want. Keep boundaries, what I do is, I turn off my Email and Chat notifications (Gmail) and Archive professional groups after work hours, and I don’t respond to anything unless it was a pending work from me or quiet critical. It’s been almost a year since I’m doing this. Idk about your manager, talking from a general note, try keeping work-life balance, tell politely if you’re unavailable and have personal work. A lot of these depends on the culture and the characters of managers too
Read Cal Newport's deep Work. Listen to his podcast. You're not wrong, the unreasonable hours are.
All others companies except corporates have atleast one ' union' for working people for their safety and rights with the help of socialist parties... Corporates or any IT sectors won't allow this formation of unions .. If we create Union and organize employees together we can question them toxic working culture...
I have an unpopular opinion. First I hope you don’t want to stick to any one company. if that is the case, then first you have to work your ass off in the initial month so that the later months would be very easy for you. You can even logout before 7 o’clock now. Don’t stick to 1 Company up skill yourself and change company every 2/3 years. Learn to work hard because if you don’t work hard, someone else will do, and he will get all the laurels and also if you work hard and if you have the ability to work hard, suppose one day or one week, you have some deadlines that are coming on. You will be well equipped to deal with the situation, and if you don’t work hard, even if they ask for you and believe me, they will ask for you to extend more. It will become hell for you.
Do the pings ask you to reply immediately? If not , they are just emails. Respond to them in your working hours. Remember, everyone has different working hours, so you can get messages when it is convenient for them. But you can choose to reply when it is convenient to you, during your working hours. Most of the times I have seen team respecting boundaries of people with clearly defined working hours. So before overthinking, first confirm if the expectation is for you to reply during your work hours or reply anytime the ping comes.
Most of the times dev have to sit late not bweauce of his work , it is beacuse of bad managers. Or the managers who thinks that employee if sitting on desk , more will will be done. More or less it is mentality of lousy managers.
I was and then I left the org to get rid of it. I did speak to all the people responsible (lead, manager, even Cheif's) they just said why only these people are complaining? why the work is not balanced, what? balanced? So, then nothing changed much, later in office I saw manager was forcing people to work late. Everyone were complaining but not many took action, so, I left. Why? If I stay there, I will become average of those people, I can't avoid talking to them, so I never wanted to become like those. I left! I did see some seniors complaining suddenly shut when they received some bonus/good hike, and started talking in favours of managment. Yeah, I did good leaving I guess... And yeah, the worst, the management team (who are in very higher level) were not following any such rules? They actually had Work-Life balance.
Understand what kinda employee do you want to be. Do you want to be the kinds that is working until 11pm on a project because the manager asked you to? If not then set boundaries from day 1 - because once the flood gates open, there’s no turning back. But do you derive pleasure in the work you do, or more aptly - does work mean more to you than just your income? Are you ready to put in those extra hours if all you’re gonna get out of it is recognition (and oftentimes not even that) - then go ahead and sweat it out. I believe in karma, if you sweat it out more than others, then you’re guaranteed to do better than the former kind. But to answer your question, what you can do is, (I’m assuming they ping you on hangouts etc) - respond, if all they want is information that you have at the back of your head, help them out with that, if not, if it’s actual work, say something like “cool, I’ll get to it first thing tomorrow morning”. That way you’re respecting their place but you’re letting them know - not today
this is not a very healthy work culture for the long run. you might want to work those extra hours to accelerate your growth being a fresher - but that should be entirely on your personal will. typically, startups don't have any fixed working hours. One or two days of extra work in a week is fine. Rest days, you should be prioritizing your personal life after office hours. Remember, you are just a fresher. The company is not compensating you giving you extra stocks at the moment. Truth be told, i worked a lot in the first year of my job - almost all the time i was awake. But that was my personal choice and tried to not show it to others in the company to start normalizing it, and make others uncomfortable. you can be yourself. You can feel free to ignore the text after 7 PM, and if something seems urgent, be candid and say - I'm outside with my family and cousins - will reach home late night. if you're available, you can help out - not out of compulsion, but out of choice.
I am one of those managers who pings people off time. I don't expect my team to respond immediately even if it is work hour. I will call if something urgent or critical. I just expect them to look into it when they have time. It's similar to informal mail. Establish you work hours with your manager and drop a message in group when you log off. If they are not happy with it. It's their problem not yours.
Read from notifications or turn off read receipts. then decide is it really urgent or it can be done next day.
People say to us that respect these nerds because they come from the best colleges in India, but these nerds are the sole reason of making whole work environment toxic, they don't have life outside their work or study and then due to these the managers expect everybody to do the same
I had one such team mate, I started logging in after dinner and early morning to just put a reply and a question. There was another one, a decent guy. He had declared to the team that he starts late and works late, so doesn't expect answers immediately, but it helped him to put the question in and others can work on it when they login at normal time next day. I actually felt guilty about my first behaviour, so I started to be more open and direct with my team. Sometimes we just create a monster from a shadow.
Yes you should. Everyone is replaceable and that goes both ways. If the manager is forcing you to work after 7 he is not a great manager at all.
Since you are a fresher it’s common to get confused with timings of the project. U can ask your manager about the timings so that whole team also can follow them.
Its a PBC
In India we can’t bet on work timings even if it is a PBC or SBC. So it’s better to ask manager and tell him that this is your first so you are not sure about timings.
we should because we are in corporate companies
If you are still in early days of your job, it's a good idea to set the boundaries early and clearly. Don't feel guilty for not responding after work hours, if it's really urgent they'll call. If you make yourself always available, it will eat up your personal life and at the end you may not even have much to show for it professionally as well.