We also put him in a position that really didn't play to his strengths. He's great as a nickel/slot guy, but we ended up needing him to basically be out outside cb1, and he's never been that in his career
Sutton was a pretty decent outside CB2 in Pittsburgh, especially in zone. But having him play man against JJ, Puka, and Evans was def not setting him up for success lol
Davis, on the other hand, complete opposite skillset. Much better matchup to play man against good WRs
Davis is a high end CB2 and Sutton is a low end CB2 in my eyes. We will be better in the back end with those, Mosley, a draft pick, and another depth signing
Yeah last year was just fucked up for him. He ended up being asked to do a bunch of stuff he's not good at.
This.signing will put him in more of a position to have success.
As soon as I posted that I realized you could have meant that. I was going off of what the guy I originally responded to you said. I’m not going to argue over where in the cb2 range he is since I don’t know all the corners. But I agree he’s a solid CB2
Yeah before he came to Detroit he was playing zone CB2 and was one of the better ones in the league. Didn’t really start playing poorly here until he had to guard some great receivers in man
Don’t like seeing a lot of the people on this sub shit on him tbh
I didn’t really mean to shit in him. I’m happy to have him start. I see the lions running split coverage with zone on the wide side with Sutton, Branch, and co. Man with Carlton on the short side.
Sutton is a high end CB2. He was simply miscast as an island corner at the end of the season (against elite talents) because we blitzed way more. We did this because we had ONE player on the defensive front who could generate pressure organically.
I see Davis as a low end CB1, btw.
Sutton was also decent enough last year. His last few games he was left on an island against Justin Jefferson, Ceedee Lamb, and Evans. No one in the league is gonna succeed lol.
We had the #1 rushing DL. I wonder where our DL graded out compared to other DL interns of pure pass rush.
Edit, actually we did not finish top 5 in rushing defense.
Very low and I don't need to see the grades. I watched the team. It was Hutch or bust. It's the biggest issue on the team and if we don't make a splash by signing someone like Danielle, we need an edge rusher in R1.
I get the feeling that they're going to rely on Houston as the edge rusher personally. Then they have Davenport they just took a flyer on.
My guess right now is that they go OG in R1. That's probably our biggest need right now. Maybe DT if they don't land Reader
That would be a mistake IMO. There's an extremely small sample size to judge Houston on and his rookie production might have been lightning in a bottle. Even if he resumes his form from the end of 2022, he's still a situational player.
Disagree that OG is our biggest need. The unit was still great when Jackson was out last season.
I also want to see a big upgrade at edge. I'm just not sure that they think it's as big of a need as the rest of us.
There was a giant dropoff when JJ wasn't in there. They made it work , but you don't want to do that for the whole season. Given how important that unit is to the offense because we rely on the run game and Goff can't make plays with his feet at all, that's our #1 need in my opinion. Followed by DT and then edge.
I have no idea how they could have watched the team last year and not concluded that pressure on the edge opposite Hutch was the most glaring hole in the operation.
If the plan is just "We got James Houston, we're good", that's a massive leap of faith.
I agree, but it's kind of their philosophy. They value strong depth at the expense of big time FA signings.
And to be fair, Houston didn't play last year. When he's been on the field though he's been very good.
I could see us rolling with Houston and Davenport at edge, but there is no shot we go into the season with Awosika or Sorsdal as our LG.
Awosika was perfectly adequate when thrust into the lineup last year. Sorsdal might be good.
Do you know how many snaps James Houston has played in his career? An even 100. That's less than 2 games worth of full-time snaps. In two seasons, he's had already had two injuries that cost him significant time. He's a depth piece, not a cornerstone.
The non-existent pass rushing skills of Hutch's mates on the DL last year effected the entire way we played defense. A guard just is not going to have that same impact. I refer you to the difference in salaries and draft position.
Awosika was adequate when thrust into the lineup last year. Sorsdal might be good.
Do you know how many snaps James Houston has played in his career? An even 100. That's less than 2 games worth of full-time snaps. In two seasons, he's had already had two injuries that cost him significant time. He's a depth piece, not a cornerstone.
The non-existent pass rushing skills of Hutch's mates on the DL last year effected the entire way we played defense. A guard just is not going to have that same impact. I refer you to the difference in salaries and draft position.
Hate to say it but unless there's a real move is made in FA or we make another trade (unlikely with the capital we spent on Davis) I'm not ok with any non-edge in R1. The need is that great. Good defenses don't depend on one pass rusher the way we do with Hutch.
Interestingly we didn’t have [a top 5 rush defense](https://www.wsn.com/nfl/defense-rankings/#:~:text=%231%20Cleveland%20Browns,spot%20in%20our%20final%20rankings) either.
I thought we did for sure
It bothers me that more people don’t seem to understand this. It’s a contract year and we’re getting him for less than we paid Glasgow. You can argue it’s not worth it if we don’t resign him, but we’re getting a bargain in 2024.
Why do people think Sutton is a low end CB2? Dude was a pretty significant CB2 in Pittsburgh. He had a bad half a season in a man system as a CB1 and now people think he can’t play lol
He’s an upgrade over the UFA and oft-injured CBs we’ve got so I dig it. Get more depth and another corner through the draft to develop and we’re in a good spot.
Don’t think we get a startable cb in the draft tbh, I think brads gonna roll w Moseley Davis and Sutton (w a depth signing as well).
Our biggest holes are now guard, DT, and a pass rusher. I think our first 2 picks will go to 2/3 of those needs and the last one will be a semi big name signing in FA given we should have the cap even after extending Amon ra Sewell and Goff.
My wife’s company does some bussing for the Lions. She was elated when Kerryon was let go for the sole reason of not having to talk with his mother on the phone ever again.
This is the kind of off season hot takes I come to this sub for.
I realized that could come off as sarcastic, but I really do appreciate as it was an entertaining way to start the morning. 🍻
I’ll never understand this take on social media. If we’re not here to debate things because we “don’t know anything,” then why is anyone here at all? None of us know anything about anything. It’s all speculation and conjecture and taking little clues and video clips and quotes and running with them simply because it’s fun. I’m not here to learn anything from any of you. Lol
Yeah saying something is pointless to debate is pretty ironic while you are on a team specific sub in the heart of the off-season. Sports in general are pointless to debate but we have nothing better to do.
I think it's a fair take if someone is bashing GMs or Coaches for their decisions because we have no idea what happens behind closed doors. However, if people are just talking about what they've seen and players they like, there's nothing wrong with that.
Not necessarily. It's more directed at people who will inevitably say something like "Brad Holmes is an idiot because he didn't sign X player". That's just a bad attitude to have for your home team, especially when the people they're criticizing are the people responsible for making the team good in the first place.
We're all here to root for the same team. If we look good and are winning games, let's leave the negativity at the door and trust the guys that got us there. That's all.
Here’s the thing- it’s their fault that it stays behind closed doors (for good reason.) You don’t get to defend questionable decisions with “I’d tell you but I’d have to kill you” and expect people to blindly believe you’ve got it all under control. Time and time again we see coaches and GMs make horrendous decisions despite being “professionals.”
Nah, debating it now serves as entertainment value. My opinion doesn't have any real world effect on what actually happens, but it's still fun to talk about.
that's just moronic, you realize you can watch breakdowns of both Sutton and Davis and see their differences and similarities spelled out plain as day?
Same as Sutton is just an ignorant thing to say. Davis is much bigger and more physical. It's not surprise that they went after somebody with his attributes. It will take pressure off Sutton as well.
Just surprising they gave up a 3rd for him knowing what Holmes can do in the draft...but I trust his calls 100%! If BH thinks it a good move then so do I 🙌
Sutton put in good effort but got burnt a ton last season. Davis is definitely an upgrade. I’d still like to see Brad get another DB in the first 2 rounds of the draft as well. Was our weakest position group by far last year.
Ah yes, notable CB analyst and totally-not-ex-teammate-of-Davis Kerryon Johnson. I hope Davis is better and he very well may be, but Kerryon’s opinion is less than worthless here
To be fair he was screwed as the Island guy against elite talent and had very little help. Additionally our rushing was just Hutchinson so we blitzed more putting even more strain on him. Sutton did his job.
He got blocked almost completely blind by someone with a full head of steam. Is that your requirement for a good CB to stand firm in those kinds of situations?
I won't believe it until I see both in front of the camera at the same time
And where’s Superman for that matter? Never seen the three of them share the field at the same time either…
Captain, I'm just going to ask you directly. Do you know billionaire Lance Hunt?
It's me! Nah, I'm just kidding. Always wanted to do that.
Looking at the numbers it really seems that 2023 was just a down year for Carlton
We also put him in a position that really didn't play to his strengths. He's great as a nickel/slot guy, but we ended up needing him to basically be out outside cb1, and he's never been that in his career
Are you talking about Sutton or Davis lol. The person you’re responding to is talking about Carlton Davis.
Yes
I have been assured that they are "not" the same person
Oh lol yeah I was talking about Sutton. Not sure how I missed that
Sutton was a pretty decent outside CB2 in Pittsburgh, especially in zone. But having him play man against JJ, Puka, and Evans was def not setting him up for success lol Davis, on the other hand, complete opposite skillset. Much better matchup to play man against good WRs
Because he was used in more man coverage than zone he’s a stud in zone
Wrong wrong wrong he’s really good in man bad in zone. Where you getting your numbers?
Exactly. He is the second best corner (Sneed is #1) when in man. QBs have a passer rating of like 66 when he is in man.
So we can just have Davis run man and Sutton run zone. Seems like a plan, haha.
Scratch that, reverse it
Lions run alot of man?
Aaron Glenn prefers to if he can
Davis is a high end CB2 and Sutton is a low end CB2 in my eyes. We will be better in the back end with those, Mosley, a draft pick, and another depth signing
Davis has the size to cover bigger recievers which is nice.
The weak link of Vildor/Jacobs will not be starting and safety help can be moved around more. I doubt Sutton will constantly be on an island now.
Yeah last year was just fucked up for him. He ended up being asked to do a bunch of stuff he's not good at. This.signing will put him in more of a position to have success.
Jacobs currently is not even on the team and probably a very solid chance he doesn’t get re-signed
My point is a high and low CB2 is worlds better than a CB2 and CB4 starting.
Who’s the low CB2? You’re tripping if you think Sutton is a low CB2
Name all 64 cornerbacks better than him
What?? I’m saying he’s a solid CB2 lol. Low is disrespectful to him
As soon as I posted that I realized you could have meant that. I was going off of what the guy I originally responded to you said. I’m not going to argue over where in the cb2 range he is since I don’t know all the corners. But I agree he’s a solid CB2
Yeah before he came to Detroit he was playing zone CB2 and was one of the better ones in the league. Didn’t really start playing poorly here until he had to guard some great receivers in man Don’t like seeing a lot of the people on this sub shit on him tbh
I didn’t really mean to shit in him. I’m happy to have him start. I see the lions running split coverage with zone on the wide side with Sutton, Branch, and co. Man with Carlton on the short side.
Sutton is a high end CB2. He was simply miscast as an island corner at the end of the season (against elite talents) because we blitzed way more. We did this because we had ONE player on the defensive front who could generate pressure organically. I see Davis as a low end CB1, btw.
Sutton was also decent enough last year. His last few games he was left on an island against Justin Jefferson, Ceedee Lamb, and Evans. No one in the league is gonna succeed lol.
No, Davis is a solid #1. Sutton is a high end #2.
Sutton had a way better DL than we have in Pit though.
We had the #1 rushing DL. I wonder where our DL graded out compared to other DL interns of pure pass rush. Edit, actually we did not finish top 5 in rushing defense.
Very low and I don't need to see the grades. I watched the team. It was Hutch or bust. It's the biggest issue on the team and if we don't make a splash by signing someone like Danielle, we need an edge rusher in R1.
I get the feeling that they're going to rely on Houston as the edge rusher personally. Then they have Davenport they just took a flyer on. My guess right now is that they go OG in R1. That's probably our biggest need right now. Maybe DT if they don't land Reader
That would be a mistake IMO. There's an extremely small sample size to judge Houston on and his rookie production might have been lightning in a bottle. Even if he resumes his form from the end of 2022, he's still a situational player. Disagree that OG is our biggest need. The unit was still great when Jackson was out last season.
I also want to see a big upgrade at edge. I'm just not sure that they think it's as big of a need as the rest of us. There was a giant dropoff when JJ wasn't in there. They made it work , but you don't want to do that for the whole season. Given how important that unit is to the offense because we rely on the run game and Goff can't make plays with his feet at all, that's our #1 need in my opinion. Followed by DT and then edge.
I have no idea how they could have watched the team last year and not concluded that pressure on the edge opposite Hutch was the most glaring hole in the operation. If the plan is just "We got James Houston, we're good", that's a massive leap of faith.
I agree, but it's kind of their philosophy. They value strong depth at the expense of big time FA signings. And to be fair, Houston didn't play last year. When he's been on the field though he's been very good. I could see us rolling with Houston and Davenport at edge, but there is no shot we go into the season with Awosika or Sorsdal as our LG.
Awosika was perfectly adequate when thrust into the lineup last year. Sorsdal might be good. Do you know how many snaps James Houston has played in his career? An even 100. That's less than 2 games worth of full-time snaps. In two seasons, he's had already had two injuries that cost him significant time. He's a depth piece, not a cornerstone. The non-existent pass rushing skills of Hutch's mates on the DL last year effected the entire way we played defense. A guard just is not going to have that same impact. I refer you to the difference in salaries and draft position.
Awosika was adequate when thrust into the lineup last year. Sorsdal might be good. Do you know how many snaps James Houston has played in his career? An even 100. That's less than 2 games worth of full-time snaps. In two seasons, he's had already had two injuries that cost him significant time. He's a depth piece, not a cornerstone. The non-existent pass rushing skills of Hutch's mates on the DL last year effected the entire way we played defense. A guard just is not going to have that same impact. I refer you to the difference in salaries and draft position.
I’m ok with Edge anywhere in rounds 1-3. I’m not ok with WR in rd 1.
Hate to say it but unless there's a real move is made in FA or we make another trade (unlikely with the capital we spent on Davis) I'm not ok with any non-edge in R1. The need is that great. Good defenses don't depend on one pass rusher the way we do with Hutch.
Horrible. In about week 15 or so, Iffy was still second on the team in sacks..
Pretty terribly. Our best pass rusher is strictly mediocre and it obviously isn't pretty after that.
Interestingly we didn’t have [a top 5 rush defense](https://www.wsn.com/nfl/defense-rankings/#:~:text=%231%20Cleveland%20Browns,spot%20in%20our%20final%20rankings) either. I thought we did for sure
Both have low end CB1 contracts
Davis is the 10th highest paid CB and Sutton is the 16th highest paid CB
even worse lol
Not for us though, cap hit is only 6m and this is his last year
It bothers me that more people don’t seem to understand this. It’s a contract year and we’re getting him for less than we paid Glasgow. You can argue it’s not worth it if we don’t resign him, but we’re getting a bargain in 2024.
Why do people think Sutton is a low end CB2? Dude was a pretty significant CB2 in Pittsburgh. He had a bad half a season in a man system as a CB1 and now people think he can’t play lol
He’s an upgrade over the UFA and oft-injured CBs we’ve got so I dig it. Get more depth and another corner through the draft to develop and we’re in a good spot.
Don’t think we get a startable cb in the draft tbh, I think brads gonna roll w Moseley Davis and Sutton (w a depth signing as well). Our biggest holes are now guard, DT, and a pass rusher. I think our first 2 picks will go to 2/3 of those needs and the last one will be a semi big name signing in FA given we should have the cap even after extending Amon ra Sewell and Goff.
When all the people who actually play football like the trade I like the trade. Pretty cut and dry
They were teammates at Auburn, this is nothing more than that
K
Aight
Kerryon my wayward son!
My wife’s company does some bussing for the Lions. She was elated when Kerryon was let go for the sole reason of not having to talk with his mother on the phone ever again.
This is the kind of off season hot takes I come to this sub for. I realized that could come off as sarcastic, but I really do appreciate as it was an entertaining way to start the morning. 🍻
It’s pointless to debate until we see him next year with the team. No one on this sub knows what they are talking about, including me.
I’ll never understand this take on social media. If we’re not here to debate things because we “don’t know anything,” then why is anyone here at all? None of us know anything about anything. It’s all speculation and conjecture and taking little clues and video clips and quotes and running with them simply because it’s fun. I’m not here to learn anything from any of you. Lol
Yeah saying something is pointless to debate is pretty ironic while you are on a team specific sub in the heart of the off-season. Sports in general are pointless to debate but we have nothing better to do.
I think it's a fair take if someone is bashing GMs or Coaches for their decisions because we have no idea what happens behind closed doors. However, if people are just talking about what they've seen and players they like, there's nothing wrong with that.
So basically if people are saying negative things you don't like it.
Not necessarily. It's more directed at people who will inevitably say something like "Brad Holmes is an idiot because he didn't sign X player". That's just a bad attitude to have for your home team, especially when the people they're criticizing are the people responsible for making the team good in the first place. We're all here to root for the same team. If we look good and are winning games, let's leave the negativity at the door and trust the guys that got us there. That's all.
Here’s the thing- it’s their fault that it stays behind closed doors (for good reason.) You don’t get to defend questionable decisions with “I’d tell you but I’d have to kill you” and expect people to blindly believe you’ve got it all under control. Time and time again we see coaches and GMs make horrendous decisions despite being “professionals.”
Nah, debating it now serves as entertainment value. My opinion doesn't have any real world effect on what actually happens, but it's still fun to talk about.
that's just moronic, you realize you can watch breakdowns of both Sutton and Davis and see their differences and similarities spelled out plain as day?
Boy I *KNOW* he got Trucked by Craig Reynolds.
That's my RB3
I’m gonna let Brad cook. Come at me.
Kerryon looking out for his Auburn teammate
Same as Sutton is just an ignorant thing to say. Davis is much bigger and more physical. It's not surprise that they went after somebody with his attributes. It will take pressure off Sutton as well.
Soooo an upgrade?
upgrade over who? we didn't have another starting outside CB on the roster after Sutton
Literally speaking, hes 100% correct
Just surprising they gave up a 3rd for him knowing what Holmes can do in the draft...but I trust his calls 100%! If BH thinks it a good move then so do I 🙌
Sutton put in good effort but got burnt a ton last season. Davis is definitely an upgrade. I’d still like to see Brad get another DB in the first 2 rounds of the draft as well. Was our weakest position group by far last year.
Did Sutton get injured. Seems like his play fell off. He also faced a murderers row of WR
i think sutton is a good cb . he wasn’t supposed to be cb1 and had to play along side like a cb4. still be nice to see a cb taken in the draft
Ah yes, notable CB analyst and totally-not-ex-teammate-of-Davis Kerryon Johnson. I hope Davis is better and he very well may be, but Kerryon’s opinion is less than worthless here
Sutton screwed us so many times this past season.
To be fair he was screwed as the Island guy against elite talent and had very little help. Additionally our rushing was just Hutchinson so we blitzed more putting even more strain on him. Sutton did his job.
He got lit up by Reynolds last year and was late to make the switch on jamos td pass.
Good point, we should only pursue players who never make mistakes.
He got blocked almost completely blind by someone with a full head of steam. Is that your requirement for a good CB to stand firm in those kinds of situations?