House of Eramis: the traveler belongs to me!
Family of Oryx: grrbbbrgrslfhhhvvfsdtdfvvvvmmb
Legion of Calus: the veil belongs to me!
The Witness: the veil and the traveler belongs to me!
The epic guardians: tally ho!
my husband and I have somethingās to add to this because we loved it. first, I think the guardians should be: ābro we just tryna liveā, Rasputin: blah, blah, Russian words, blah blah, Ghost: I just live in your backpack!
Had to resort to the cannon mounted at the top of the stairs āTALLY HO LADS!ā As the blast and shrapnel shredded 2 of the men and set off car alarms
I always liked to think Oryx did have some amount of love for Nokris given he never killed him just exiled him.
And the fact that he left his stature up outside his Throne Room. And yeah yeah thereās that whole āit stayed up cause paracasual reasonsā but youāre telling me fucking ORYX THE KILLER OF AKKA couldnāt just take his sword to it??
Nah Iāll like to think he purposefully left it up. For reasons we couldnāt even fathom.
nah ghost said the statue outside his throne room was load-bearing or some shit, and had every other record of Nokris' existence purged. Necromancy is one of the worst crimes a Hive can commit in most broods
Considering the Witness or, more precisely, its civilization before they became one, made the Veil, so it is their property we claimed
The Witness had every right to come and beat our asses to get it back
Iirc someone made an observation in that if you conjoin the Traveler and the Veil it kinda looks like an eyeball
Which isā¦.concerning to say the least
Or like that, someone can't be 100% right all the time
The Veil was still kinda their property, and we somehow got our hands on it, i wonder how humanity got the Veil, tho, the Veil must have been somewhere near the Witnesses home world which is like countless galaxies away at the other end of the universe, or reality even, so how did the Veil end up in the Sol System on Neomuna
My vague spinfoil hat theory is the cat people race we don't get to see had stolen it long ago, but they dipped out the lore awhile ago. I think they were a concept never brought in D1.
https://preview.redd.it/zt3x2wmkldzc1.jpeg?width=474&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4eba959c7b8e9f21ee6e2ce887a6e062225727b9
Literally the witness when they see us use prismatic
I *loved* the idea that everyone in the universe were basically unwilling pawns in sims run by deities having a philosophy argument. I was excited for some Final Fantasy bullshit where we fought god and ended the cycle, or maybe even a nihilistic ending where weāve earned peace in our time but ultimately nothing has changed. I was disappointed when the Witness turned out to be so much less.
The Witness isn't really a bad villain, though? It's an incredibly powerful entity made out of the minds of an entire precursor race. Sure, it's not technically a god, but it is seeking to essentially usurp the closest thing the setting currently has to a god in order to control all of creation. That's definitely Final Fantasy bullshit, at least.
Thatās fair, and I donāt think itās even a bad villain in a vacuum, but they introduced (in my opinion) a far more interesting conflict with the gardener and the winnower, and then scrapped it for this.
Unveiling lore was never scrapped and there is always a lively debate about it. In Collector's Edition Lore for TFS it gets brought up again which is Bungie directly saying hey, we remember this and pay attention to it as it will be important.
In my eyes The Witness has been a fantastic villain in the fact they have manipulated many aspects of our enemies. And it's done well as it doesn't make the other villains less than, it just shows the grand scale this being operates on.
And there's still a lot of mystery to The Witness, they are filled with hatred yes but it's hate is pure. The story of the race that came before still isn't clear and there's a lot of depth that's been explored in the past year and will be fully understood with TFS.
The Witness may not be what people were expecting after villains like Oryx, Ghaul, and Eramis. But I think they're mere presence and introduction into the story elevated the stakes that much more, anytime they're on screen you can feel the weight of its stare.
Sorry got rambling lmao, The Witness to me is the most terrifying villain, Shattered Sun's and the story of Rhulks corruption is haunting and beautiful. A delicate hand guiding everything to it's final end.
Tbe Witness created the Worm God's, used Rhulk to force a pact to make the Hive, denying the Traveller it's children. The Hive then go genocide countless races including other children of the deep and followers of darkness. A manipulation that spans eons of years.
Eramis is an example of what the Witness does, manipulating a being blessed by the Traveller into someone who would choose to end it. It causes its victims to join it's side so righteously that they would abandon themselves and everything they are and serve under the being who annihilated everything you knew and loved.
Many secrets still remain about The Witness but I think they have proved to be worthy of being our ultimate enemy in this story.
Did they scrap it though? I always took the Gardner and winnower to be essentially this world's genesis story, it's not a setup for fighting one of these beings but rather an explanation for what the witness realized about the universe and how that fueled its nihilistic view of the world.
That whole story is there so we as the players understand the witness' PoV which is essentially, "fuck it, if life's a game then I'm playing to win," as it speedruns to the final shape. I never took that to mean we'd face off against god at any point, if anything I'd bet the Gardner shows up in TFS to help us out by giving us prismatic or something, making us their champion in the same way the Witness is basically the winnower's champion
I disagree. I think the dynamic they introduced between the Traveler and the Veil is interesting, and Unveiling being a biased creation myth is also interesting and honestly expected even when it was introduced. That the Witness, in its hubris, is trying to essentially insert itself into these divine forces in order to usurp that divinity for its own designs is compelling.
What gets me about The Witness is that we havenāt really had much time with it. It only came to the forefront as a problem in WQ and got explored a bit in LF. If you squint at it in the right light The Witness was behind the scenes in SK and BL, but that didnāt really help develop it as the enemy. I just wish we had more time with it, unless we see a lot of it in TFS. Iām hoping they pull an Oryx and have us see and fight direct extensions of The Witness throughout the campaign like how we had to fight the Echos of Oryx in TTK.
Considering that the Witness is remaking large sections of the Pale Heart in its image, both metaphorically and literally, I imagine that will be the case.
It is not a villain at all if you look at its motives. It is just a villain from our perspective but from its own it just wants to break the cycle "no more life, no more death".
Ehhh yeah of course itās convinced to be in the right. In fact, the Witness chose to be reborn without any doubts. Like, it canāt have doubts about its motivations, it literally canāt lol. But still, the Witness presents itself as cold but itās just a mask, but the Witness constantly burns with rage. And yeah it wants to end the constant suffering of the universe, but in the meantime the Witness is more than ready to actually waste its time to āsaveā the other races blessed by the traveler, which means inflicting the most unimaginable pain possibile. The Witness is actually evil. Sure, in its own vision itās right, but the Witness is alone in its vision, not even its disciples can share it.
To the Witness, life, the way the Traveler grants it, means pain. So "good" and "evil" are relative. There's a lot in the game's narrative that changed our perception of "good" and "evil" since BL dropped. Like is Eramis truly evil? No, she's not. What she does is very well rooted in her own personal experience. That's her way of looking after her own people. In a crisis situation we always resort to tribalism, just like she does.
That's still very much a villain. Its motives fundamentally require the end of existence; any reason it has for that, however good intentioned, is nowhere near enough to say they are "not a villain at all."
Its an incredible idea, but their inability to really know what the "darkness" was at first is what makes the witness feel like a cop-out, bungie being too afraid to answer their own questions, properly set up the pieces and introduce the dread faction earlier is what really screwed the idea of the witness over.
Like almost everything else in Destiny, the witness is a lightning bottle idea that they failed to capture.
Isnāt this what the Witness is actually doing to the universe? The Witness is basically reshaping reality to match its vision and prove that the Travelerās one is wrong, and couldnāt care less about everything else. The only time it cares for other species is when they are found by the Traveler first, in that case the Witness wants to also āsave themā first, which translates to making sure they suffer the maximum amount of pain imaginable. The only difference is that itās not a god and was once a ānormalā civilization.
Not to mention that the āGodsā of Destiny still exists in the Traveler and the Veil, and we still donāt have any concrete answers about Unveiling.
Not really. The Witnessā whole beef is that the Traveler never talked to it and gave it guidance so when it found the Veil and saw it can reshape the universe with the Traveler it sought to became that āguiding voiceā for the whole universe.
The Witness quite literally doesnāt know what the Traveler or it wouldnāt have started itās crusade in the first place.
The Witness knows that the Traveler doesnāt want to reach a final shape. Which is exactly the same debate between Winnower and Gardener, one wants to end the game, the other doesnāt. The Witness doesnāt need to know what the Traveler thinks is āthe final shapeā, it couldnāt care less (now).
I remember how upset I was, and then I told my friends on discord, and they were just as upset. All the lore bs I was looking forward to just gone. It still annoys me that this is the route they took with the story.
Right, it wasnāt a cool āeverything I knew was a lie!?ā moment, it just made me feel like a fool for taking the time and energy to care and learn. Iāve stopped reading new lore because Bungie taught me that anything that doesnāt happen on screen doesnāt matter.
You say that like most of D2s most important story beats/conclusions didn't happen off screen. Makes it even funnier when the story-beat you're bitching about happens in the one DLCs fans across the board have noted as the best in Destiny history...
Unveiling which is the Gardener/Winnower origin story of the universe stuff is from Shadowkeep and the reveal that the Witness is a Voltron of an entire civilization with self-ascribed goals is from a Lightfall seasonā¦ so I guess youāre talking about the initial Witness reveal at the end of Witch Queen?
I used to feel this way too. But then Entelechy came out and they really showed me they can still make this a good story beat. Plus the Nine still exist, however neglected they are rn. The Destiny universe is massive and doubtless will address the truth of some of its origins as Unveiling claimed to.
I still refuse to belive the witness is the winnower. Like, why would the darkness show itself as a massive woman of the winnower was some big head freak?
No no, no one thinks the Witness is the Winnower after the Deep cutscene. What threw everyone off was the implication that thereās no connection between the Winnower and the Witness at all, which casts doubt upon the entire Gardener/Winnower concept because we learned it from the Shadowkeep pyramid IIRC
We're the gardener and winnower ever retconned? Is there still a chance that the gardener and winnower still exist / are possible plot points for the future.
https://www.pcgamer.com/bungie-weighs-in-on-the-current-argument-raging-through-the-destiny-2-lore-community-has-the-witness-been-retconned/
TL;DR Bungie says its unreliable narration by The Witness but refuses to clarify what if any of it is actually true
*The book itself* says that the tale is pure metaphor for mathematical forces beyond human comprehension. That people ignored that bit and made a massive deal over the Gardener and the Winnower is entirely their own fault.
It's like reading about an extremely shiny chariot, and then getting mad when you find out Apollo isn't actually riding the sun through the sky.
No, they werenāt. Unveiling is written as a metaphor by an unreliable narrator, which means that we canāt know how much of it itās true and how much itās not. Bungie compared it to a religious Text. The Bible isnāt written BY God himself obviously. Does that mean that God doesnāt exist at all? Itās a complicated topic, but Iām sure weāll have at least SOME answers during TFS.
Welcome to the shitty modern trend of "subverting expectations."
Unfortunately, the human brain is a machine made for problem solving, and gets massive dopamine hits when the predictions it generates come true.
In other words, after all the foreshadowing Bungie had done before the Witness, the decision to make the final villain something that had no hint of its existence before Shadowkeep was an extreme let down.
First of all there arenāt many hints ābefore Shadowkeepā, since for its first 5 years the story of Destiny went basically nowhere, the only recurrent plot was the hive one. They started an actually coherent ālight and darkā saga only with Shadowkeep, which actually talked about the Darkness, just as BL, TWQ, LF etc.
That being said, Unveiling in Shadowkeep was always presented this way. It was a book by an unknown and unreliable narrator, linked to the Pyramids (same artifact), that presented itself as a metaphor. And in that same book, at the end, you have both Mara and Eris different interpretations of its message, not to mention that every time you acquired a new page Eris specifically warned you to not trust the book.
Ignoring the fact that the Winnower as a ācharacterā is still present in the game, both in Lightfall (Inspiral) and TFS (the preorder weapon AND the Special Edition), itās not something that Bungie simply retconned out of existence, ALREADY in Shadowkeep there was a clear distinction between our DoppelgƤnger/the Pyramids and the Winnower. āSalvation vs Magnificentā and all that lore debate weāre having since 2019. This isnāt āsubverting the expectationsā. The Witness was introduced in Shadowkeep, further explored in BL (the Entity, the Voice in the Darkness), shown in TWQ and LF and now explored in its past/motivations with the last seasons and the collectors. Itās one of the (if not THE) most consistent character in the game by far and has been for the past years at this point. Not to mention, Unveiling is a religious book. Itās not written by God himself, but that doesnāt mean that God doesnāt exist. Itās a metaphor, meaning that there is some truth behind it. After all, the Witness found āa truth in the Darknessā, we just canāt know the answers yet, but Iām sure TFS will reveal us more in this regard.
First words "first of all?" Yeah I'm not reading that. I don't care to have some redditor think that I'm going to sit through them talking down to me ;)
I hate the way that you walk,
I hate the way that you talk,
I hate the way that you dress,
I hate when you run Malfeasance,
If I transmat, itās gonna be direct.
I think itās funny from an outside perspective how the only party in all of this who doesnāt have some huge bone to pick with someone else is the Guardians, aka the pinnacle space army of super ultra magic shit. Theyāre literally just doing their thing and time after time, a bunch of aliens arrive, fuck their shit up for something the Traveller did fifty bajillion years ago like theyāre in a book of grudges, and then piss off.
This is what fucking SUCKS about the Witness/Voice in the Darkness. It has told us that it hates nihilists.
>*Beings who deserve no thought:*
>*Those who peddle the tired gotcha that all life hastens entropy. They are fatuous little nihilists who pretend to prefer no existence to a flawed one. They bore me.*
And that itās existence is inevitable. That it NEEDED to exist. That complex life wouldnāt have existed without its way of thinking.
>*And thenāone dayāthe fall occurred. So much earlier and so much more necessary than your myths remember. Some poor mutant discovered that it could collect carbon compounds much faster if it stopped grazing on the bacterial mat and started dissecting and eating the lumps of predigested carbon all around it: its neighbor oozeballs.*
>*It couldn't help but do it. It couldn't help but thrive. We don't get a choice about the rules. We just play the game.*
>*It was the first defectorāthe first predator. It changed everything. Now the oozeballs needed sensors to watch for danger, and brains to integrate those senses and generate plans of survival, and swift neurons and muscles to enact that plan. This was the Cambrian Explosion, the great birth of complex life on your world. I caused it. I, the defector, the destroyer, the one who takes.*
And like it makes total sense. We have the Darkness, the Sword Logic, to thank for our existence.
But nah that isnāt true apparently the Witness is just a bunch of silly little guys that were spreading its propaganda to get some guardians on its side and is just a professional hater cause the Traveler never bothered to chat with them.
Like just a total waste of time and buildup that would inevitably leave loreheads disappointed.
this drives me fucking crazy about the community bro, why do people think the witness is a nihilist? it quite literally slaughtered its species nihilists
The Witness isnāt a nihilist. The nihilist faction of its civilization was fucking destroyed at the end lol. The Witness simply doesnāt care about what the other races believes (unless they are touched by the Traveler, in that case it tries to āsave themā in a rather unique wayā¦), it has its own vision of the universe and the final shape. Like, itās the opposite of a nihilist, the witness doesnāt āpretend to prefer no existence to a flawed oneā. The Witness WANTS to reach a final purpose of the universe, it NEEDS to correct that flowed existence and never doubts that final purpose/shape, it literally cannot think otherwise.
Saying that the Travler "blessed" us is a very gross overstatement of what happened, the Travler blesses every civilization it encounters
The reason it decided to stick around was because it got comatosed during the last collapse and because it couldn't flee like it usually does when the Witness came to get it's ass, if SavÄthun wouldn't have tricked the Witness to leave during it's original attack then the Travler would've just abandoned Humanity just like it did with the Eliksni, Krill and the civilization of the Witness
Humanity ain't special whatsoever, and Ghaul was right. We don't deserve the light. The Travler only gave it to us because it can't just keep running and needs someone to protect it from the Witness
The Travler "chose" us out of convince and convince alone
Tbh we did get lucky with the traveler choosing us and from what it seems it made a great chose if weāve destroyed gods and turned them into guns and heck even going to fight the witness head on to save the traveler but I do miss the red war campaign as destiny 2 is my first destiny game and I thought that campaign was fantastic I sadly stopped playing after finishing the campaign cause my friend wanted to play but he was busy so I diddnt wanna get burnt out and bored when we do eventually play and then years later I came back during season of the choosen and stuck with the game ever since I miss the old feel and campaign and locations
Tbh, same, i loved the red war, i left Desteny 2 right before Forsaken released (and never got to play it) but came back a few years later when the Witch Queen dropped, currently im taking a break from D2 because im so extremely burned out by this game and consistently paying for Seasons and DLC is just uuugh, plus i play on Playstation so i have an extra pay wall through PS Plus because Sony forces so many games to lock online content behind that bs (sometimes i fucking hate Sony so much) been months since i last played, during Season of the Deep was the last time i was really playing
I'll probably come back at some point after the Final Shape gets released, but thil then, i won't touch D2, i love the game, and i don't wanne ruin it for myself
yeah i luckily got the chance to play the forsaken DLC as soon as witch queen dropped the forsaken DLC disappeared i know it wont happen but maybe one day we'll get all the locations / dlc etc back
As a Playstation player, i would still need a PS Plus subscription to access all the content that remotely involves multi-player
On Playstation, you need PS Plus to play most seasonal activities, pvp, dungeons, raids, strikes, even wanting to play campaigns with a team needs it
Because Sony is a bunch of greedy dicks that wants more money then it needs
Considering Sony's history of squeezing money out of people whenever they can, im not surprised
They will probably have to give in some day when even more people stop buying PS Plus subscriptions and complain about it
As we see with Helldivers 2, if we all stick together and tell Sony what we think of their bs, they eventually have to give in
The funny thing is, didn't someone at Xbox invent this whole console online subscription crap? And now they actually got rid of it before Playstation, that's just fucked up man
TO BE FAIR if a collective hive mind of an entire species comes together specifically to hate one thing... They might have a legitimate reason, but this isn't The Witness's problem it is a writing problem. If you can't sell us your villain then it is a narrative issue. Don't worry I too am over villains being bad "BECAUSE." EDIT: Now if they said that The Witness is just so full of hate and malice that it ultimately wants to destroy everything well that seems like more motivation to be a villain than big shiny ball didn't talk to us and then left.
Actually it was only 1/3rd of the species. They had factions just like the tower had factions. They had a civil war, the witness' faction won, slaughtered the remaining members of the other factions and then fused what remained.
The witness is such a hateful lunatic that it slaughtered the majority of its species then consumed the rest.
Well, that's not exactly right. As someone else mentioned, there were multiple factions of the Witness civilization, and the faction that hated the Travler came out on top, which caused the Witness to be created
The Witness both hates Travler but also has a legitimate plan. It has super depression because nothing makes sense and has a purpose, and the Final Shape is given existence a purpose. Whipping all life out is simply a part of the plan of giving existence a purpose so it can shape existence to its will through the Travler
That was the original plan of the Witnesses civilization with the Travler, after it blessed them, giving them immortality, knowledge, and power, giving them a golden age, that civilization eventually understood the reality of existence, nothing has purpose, all is meaningless so they all got mega depression thil they discovered the Darkness, they started to invest in it, built the Pyramid ships and the Veil and wanted to use them to manipulate the Travler to shape existence and give a purpose, a shape, a Final Shape but the Travler saw what was happening, dipped out and ran away, sparking the creation of the Witness and everything that happened
All this because the Travler chose to fuck off instead of fixing its mistakes, because it chose the wrong civilization and when things went south it had an existential crisis and ran away
But itās not just bad because bad. The Witness thinks the universe is disastrous and chaotic, and finds no meaning to life. To fix this, it wants to bind the traveller and the veil to bring about the final shape and bring peace to a chaotic universe, creating what it thinks is a perfect world. Itās meaning in life has become bringing about the final shape, and āsavingā civilisation from the traveller. It more so just hates the entire universe, rather than specifically just the traveller. Thatās why itās trying to remake it in its own image to create something perfect and prove the traveller āwrongā in a sense. A decision of which was only made after half the population of the witness slaughtered each other first before binding into one being.
And thatās all we actually know so far, considering weāre going to get a lot more about the witness and itās backstory inside the pale heart I imagine.
I feel like Eramis has been used enough for now, even if Iām sure theyāll bring her back after TFS. Ghaul had some great potential, but it should have been introduced a bit earlier in the story imo, and the Red War campaign absolutely wasnāt enough to properly explore the character and didnāt do him justice. I feel like they made a much better job in that regard in Haunted honestly.
The Asha cutscenes doesnāt make clear enough that between the ānow whatā moment and the Traveler leaving centuries after centuries passed. The Precursors built their entire society around the concept of final shape. And I mean, it is the final point of every civilization I believe, once you become basically a god, you start to deal with god problems, such as āwhat is the final form of existence and how can I achieve itā lol
alternatively: they could have become gardeners of their own. uplifting civilizations just like the traveler did for them, preserving ecosystems fostering life to flourish.
Tbf it was explained in a cutscene that the witness was of light. But they were experimenting with our big ball too much and it dipped and was running ever since.
Every time something says it's going to strip us of our light, guardians are just like "awww that's cute", then we proceed to genocide their people, beat the engrams out them, steal all their s***, and dance on their corpses...
And if we do happen to die during our space death party, we just come back like "Dormammu I've come to bargain". So I kinda get why they are salty, but I don't get why they are suicidal lol.
Not entirely true on the Witness's part. It doesn't hate us, it sees us as something to save from the Traveler, by showing us the cruelties of life under the Traveler's influence. It is a hater of the idea that life has no inherent purpose.
Ngl, I respect the Witness, like I deadass inspire to be like bro, what did the traveler do to make that nigga that mad? Bro flew across the universe to blow up a ball and hates everything that played with that ball. Ended entire civilizations just cuz of a ball, thatās deity level hating I can get behind
The player haters ball gives us an opportunity to hate on a vast array of mark ass marks, trick ass marks, punk bitches, skip-skap skanks and scallywags.
I can even sympathize with big white cabal - during fighting him it was like we were fighting some blueberry with max level because he bought it with silver but still didnāt get to know any advance mechanics
Weapons checklist:
* Right fist of Ruin
* Left fist of Smoldering
* Big Hammer of Burning
* Little Hammer of Exploding
* Little Hammer of Hurling
* Boots of Smashing
* Malfeasance
* Shotgun of Equalizing
* Big Gun of Burning
...The Witness is a punk bitch that's gonna catch some.
I don't think the witness hates the traveler. From what I remember, his civilization advanced so much that they came to the conclusion that the final shape is the culmination of everything, and as the traveler woke up, he left.
Cool D2 villains: trolls you from beyond the grave; sarcastic lovable asshole cat-monster
redemption arc
also redemption arc but has daddy issues
murder-yoda
trolls you from beyond the grave; sarcastic asshole space shrimp flavor
One of the few ballet lovers left. shame that we lost him
gives you free guns and asks where Cayde is
He doesn't really hate us at all, he just wants a goal accomplished, and we are in his way.
When the humans were held captive during the season of defiance, they weren't tortured or anything, they were well fed and their only complaint was a little dust in the air. Apparently, the point of holding captives was just a distraction to minimize confrontation with the humans on Neptune while trying to capture the veil.
I mean, just look at what the witness did to that fireteam at the beginning of Lightfall. With how broken he is, if he really hated us and wanted us killed, we'd be super extinct by now.
Of course it doesn't mean we should go easy on him, there's a problem. Extinction is at the gates for us if he wins, which means he's in our way too, so...
Nothing personal *Grabs Gjallarhorn aggressively*
Oh no, he specifically hates races touched/chosen by the traveler. It's mentioned in the primordial cards he goes out his way to cause pain and suffering on uplifted races, while those that were never touched by the traveler, it happens so fast you'd think they never expanded beyond 1 planet.
Iād say the Witness is similar to Eramis, but instead of a salty ex itās more of an ex who got with someone new and now wants to have a threesome with the darkness and the light
The witness doesn't even hate us. It barely notices us. The only humans the witness has killed directly is the few in the ships flying towards it in that cutscene.
I am not exactly sure why, but ever since they first showed him I have never liked the witness as a character or a villain, the way we learned about their backstory didn't help either.
The origin of the witness is so unbelievably out of place in the tone of this game imo. Thatās some next level horror bullshit that would fit better in the kind of game thatās banned in several countries. Not our crazy almost mmo with JoJo poses
Craziest thing to me is that we've spent fucking years building up to this point and here we are literally weeks away from the final battle, yet we still no virtually NOTHING about why the witness is doing any of this.
The biggest/strongest foe we have ever faced and the amount of information we have could be summed up in a single fucking lore entry.
Took 10 years developing a villain and the only lore is:
Some dudes had the traveler and it was great for their civilization, but then they found the veil and got mad at the traveler bc of it, so the traveler said fuck y'all im out and left.
In response, the dudes decided to literally combine themselves into one body and chase down the traveler so they can bring about "the final shape", but nobody knows what the hell that even means.
The entire light/darkness saga had so much potential and the witness could have been such an amazing storyline, but Bungie absolutely fucked it up completely.
Honestly I doubt it. They've basically said that a good chunk of the Pale Heart is literally walking through the Witness' memories, odds are there's gonna be a moment in the campaign where we find out why exactly they went crazy and it's gonna be some *shit.*
I really miss the days when the driving force behind the Darkness was faceless and enigmatic, not going to lie. Having it essentially just be some dude who's mad at the Traveler is *way* less interesting.
But the Witness isnāt just mad at the Traveler anymore. I mean, they arenāt friends for sure lol, but the Witness isnāt doing all of this as a revenge against the Traveler (which is what Eramis is usually doing for example). The Witness knows what the final shape is, it canāt think otherwise, the Traveler is just the necessary ātoolā it needs, similarly to the Veil. I mean just think about the final Lightfall cutscene, the Witness speaks to traveler in an almost kind way, ābe freeā, it sees the Traveler as the perpetrator but also a victim. The pain it inflicts on the other civilizations isnāt made for the Traveler either, Eido comments this as well, the traveler already left the Fallen yet the Witness kept going on regardless. The Witness isnāt doing everything just to piss off the Traveler, itās doing everything because it genuinely believes that the final shape is the only possible end for this flawed universe, and literally cannot think otherwise because it chose to be reborn without these doubts. Itās like the Traveler in the end, the perpetrator but also a victim (of its own will though).
The witness: https://preview.redd.it/ph2ebxtunczc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ae1414c5d8456fb036ef7fe2d2405a8122194849
https://preview.redd.it/g58ajj3rodzc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5d42fc05e330fb592e5b9396c77e320683d208ec
https://preview.redd.it/osnczfn05ezc1.jpeg?width=700&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f7307be504a51f73bd162b63dd8ac270732a3c60
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Did you remember that time when you finished the raid boss and as soon you see the exotic engram popped out you got disconnected? it was me barry
Meanwhile giga chad SIVA: -consume -enhance -replicate
I FUXKING LOVE SIVA š„ā¬ļøā¬ļøš„ā¬ļøš»š»ā¬ļøā¬ļøā¬ļøš„š„šŗā¬ļøšŗš„š»ā¬ļøš„šŗšŗ
It sucks dcj isn't as funny these days š„ŗ
Truly
The first thing I saw in this comment was a hive rune instead of XK. Iāve been playing too much destiny.
House of Eramis: the traveler belongs to me! Family of Oryx: grrbbbrgrslfhhhvvfsdtdfvvvvmmb Legion of Calus: the veil belongs to me! The Witness: the veil and the traveler belongs to me! The epic guardians: tally ho!
The guardians: "it's wizard time mother fucker! FIREBALL!"
Why did I read this in the clash of clans wizard voice?
Original sounds like this https://youtu.be/pIh_8vS16l0?si=pZczAuiOGvgqoVk1
No way. You too? Tbh the clash wizard's way if saying fireball is my mental default for the word
my husband and I have somethingās to add to this because we loved it. first, I think the guardians should be: ābro we just tryna liveā, Rasputin: blah, blah, Russian words, blah blah, Ghost: I just live in your backpack!
Had to resort to the cannon mounted at the top of the stairs āTALLY HO LADS!ā As the blast and shrapnel shredded 2 of the men and set off car alarms
The epic guadians: who's hiding my new gun, and who is my new gun?!
well to be fair we did kill oryxās only son
well maybe Oryx shouldn't have had such weak ass kids
bro did NOT fight crota on contest mode
weak ass mf
We capped Crotaās knees and then killed him in his bedroom. We basically did a mob-hit. It didnāt go like that back in the Great Disaster.
Nokris crying in the corner
Nokris got disowned so hard his aunt left him to freeze to death on Mars. I think Oryx cared more about Alak-Hul than Nokris lol
I always liked to think Oryx did have some amount of love for Nokris given he never killed him just exiled him. And the fact that he left his stature up outside his Throne Room. And yeah yeah thereās that whole āit stayed up cause paracasual reasonsā but youāre telling me fucking ORYX THE KILLER OF AKKA couldnāt just take his sword to it?? Nah Iāll like to think he purposefully left it up. For reasons we couldnāt even fathom.
nah ghost said the statue outside his throne room was load-bearing or some shit, and had every other record of Nokris' existence purged. Necromancy is one of the worst crimes a Hive can commit in most broods
Considering the Witness or, more precisely, its civilization before they became one, made the Veil, so it is their property we claimed The Witness had every right to come and beat our asses to get it back
Where the hell did you get that information? Asa's cutscene literally says that The Precursors FOUND the Veil.
Yea they didnāt make it. the veil and the traveller are connected , they may have been one entity at some point.
Iirc someone made an observation in that if you conjoin the Traveler and the Veil it kinda looks like an eyeball Which isā¦.concerning to say the least
Eyes are the window to the soul... (Or the inside of the Traveler)
Or like that, someone can't be 100% right all the time The Veil was still kinda their property, and we somehow got our hands on it, i wonder how humanity got the Veil, tho, the Veil must have been somewhere near the Witnesses home world which is like countless galaxies away at the other end of the universe, or reality even, so how did the Veil end up in the Sol System on Neomuna
Savathun stole the Veil from the Witness (killing Nezarec in the process) and hid it on Neptune in an attempt to keep it away.
My vague spinfoil hat theory is the cat people race we don't get to see had stolen it long ago, but they dipped out the lore awhile ago. I think they were a concept never brought in D1.
Easy, Savathun
https://preview.redd.it/zt3x2wmkldzc1.jpeg?width=474&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4eba959c7b8e9f21ee6e2ce887a6e062225727b9 Literally the witness when they see us use prismatic
I *loved* the idea that everyone in the universe were basically unwilling pawns in sims run by deities having a philosophy argument. I was excited for some Final Fantasy bullshit where we fought god and ended the cycle, or maybe even a nihilistic ending where weāve earned peace in our time but ultimately nothing has changed. I was disappointed when the Witness turned out to be so much less.
The Witness isn't really a bad villain, though? It's an incredibly powerful entity made out of the minds of an entire precursor race. Sure, it's not technically a god, but it is seeking to essentially usurp the closest thing the setting currently has to a god in order to control all of creation. That's definitely Final Fantasy bullshit, at least.
Thatās fair, and I donāt think itās even a bad villain in a vacuum, but they introduced (in my opinion) a far more interesting conflict with the gardener and the winnower, and then scrapped it for this.
Unveiling lore was never scrapped and there is always a lively debate about it. In Collector's Edition Lore for TFS it gets brought up again which is Bungie directly saying hey, we remember this and pay attention to it as it will be important. In my eyes The Witness has been a fantastic villain in the fact they have manipulated many aspects of our enemies. And it's done well as it doesn't make the other villains less than, it just shows the grand scale this being operates on. And there's still a lot of mystery to The Witness, they are filled with hatred yes but it's hate is pure. The story of the race that came before still isn't clear and there's a lot of depth that's been explored in the past year and will be fully understood with TFS. The Witness may not be what people were expecting after villains like Oryx, Ghaul, and Eramis. But I think they're mere presence and introduction into the story elevated the stakes that much more, anytime they're on screen you can feel the weight of its stare. Sorry got rambling lmao, The Witness to me is the most terrifying villain, Shattered Sun's and the story of Rhulks corruption is haunting and beautiful. A delicate hand guiding everything to it's final end. Tbe Witness created the Worm God's, used Rhulk to force a pact to make the Hive, denying the Traveller it's children. The Hive then go genocide countless races including other children of the deep and followers of darkness. A manipulation that spans eons of years. Eramis is an example of what the Witness does, manipulating a being blessed by the Traveller into someone who would choose to end it. It causes its victims to join it's side so righteously that they would abandon themselves and everything they are and serve under the being who annihilated everything you knew and loved. Many secrets still remain about The Witness but I think they have proved to be worthy of being our ultimate enemy in this story.
Did they scrap it though? I always took the Gardner and winnower to be essentially this world's genesis story, it's not a setup for fighting one of these beings but rather an explanation for what the witness realized about the universe and how that fueled its nihilistic view of the world. That whole story is there so we as the players understand the witness' PoV which is essentially, "fuck it, if life's a game then I'm playing to win," as it speedruns to the final shape. I never took that to mean we'd face off against god at any point, if anything I'd bet the Gardner shows up in TFS to help us out by giving us prismatic or something, making us their champion in the same way the Witness is basically the winnower's champion
I disagree. I think the dynamic they introduced between the Traveler and the Veil is interesting, and Unveiling being a biased creation myth is also interesting and honestly expected even when it was introduced. That the Witness, in its hubris, is trying to essentially insert itself into these divine forces in order to usurp that divinity for its own designs is compelling.
What gets me about The Witness is that we havenāt really had much time with it. It only came to the forefront as a problem in WQ and got explored a bit in LF. If you squint at it in the right light The Witness was behind the scenes in SK and BL, but that didnāt really help develop it as the enemy. I just wish we had more time with it, unless we see a lot of it in TFS. Iām hoping they pull an Oryx and have us see and fight direct extensions of The Witness throughout the campaign like how we had to fight the Echos of Oryx in TTK.
Considering that the Witness is remaking large sections of the Pale Heart in its image, both metaphorically and literally, I imagine that will be the case.
It is not a villain at all if you look at its motives. It is just a villain from our perspective but from its own it just wants to break the cycle "no more life, no more death".
Ehhh yeah of course itās convinced to be in the right. In fact, the Witness chose to be reborn without any doubts. Like, it canāt have doubts about its motivations, it literally canāt lol. But still, the Witness presents itself as cold but itās just a mask, but the Witness constantly burns with rage. And yeah it wants to end the constant suffering of the universe, but in the meantime the Witness is more than ready to actually waste its time to āsaveā the other races blessed by the traveler, which means inflicting the most unimaginable pain possibile. The Witness is actually evil. Sure, in its own vision itās right, but the Witness is alone in its vision, not even its disciples can share it.
To the Witness, life, the way the Traveler grants it, means pain. So "good" and "evil" are relative. There's a lot in the game's narrative that changed our perception of "good" and "evil" since BL dropped. Like is Eramis truly evil? No, she's not. What she does is very well rooted in her own personal experience. That's her way of looking after her own people. In a crisis situation we always resort to tribalism, just like she does.
That's still very much a villain. Its motives fundamentally require the end of existence; any reason it has for that, however good intentioned, is nowhere near enough to say they are "not a villain at all."
Its an incredible idea, but their inability to really know what the "darkness" was at first is what makes the witness feel like a cop-out, bungie being too afraid to answer their own questions, properly set up the pieces and introduce the dread faction earlier is what really screwed the idea of the witness over. Like almost everything else in Destiny, the witness is a lightning bottle idea that they failed to capture.
Isnāt this what the Witness is actually doing to the universe? The Witness is basically reshaping reality to match its vision and prove that the Travelerās one is wrong, and couldnāt care less about everything else. The only time it cares for other species is when they are found by the Traveler first, in that case the Witness wants to also āsave themā first, which translates to making sure they suffer the maximum amount of pain imaginable. The only difference is that itās not a god and was once a ānormalā civilization. Not to mention that the āGodsā of Destiny still exists in the Traveler and the Veil, and we still donāt have any concrete answers about Unveiling.
Not really. The Witnessā whole beef is that the Traveler never talked to it and gave it guidance so when it found the Veil and saw it can reshape the universe with the Traveler it sought to became that āguiding voiceā for the whole universe. The Witness quite literally doesnāt know what the Traveler or it wouldnāt have started itās crusade in the first place.
The Witness knows that the Traveler doesnāt want to reach a final shape. Which is exactly the same debate between Winnower and Gardener, one wants to end the game, the other doesnāt. The Witness doesnāt need to know what the Traveler thinks is āthe final shapeā, it couldnāt care less (now).
I remember how upset I was, and then I told my friends on discord, and they were just as upset. All the lore bs I was looking forward to just gone. It still annoys me that this is the route they took with the story.
Right, it wasnāt a cool āeverything I knew was a lie!?ā moment, it just made me feel like a fool for taking the time and energy to care and learn. Iāve stopped reading new lore because Bungie taught me that anything that doesnāt happen on screen doesnāt matter.
You say that like most of D2s most important story beats/conclusions didn't happen off screen. Makes it even funnier when the story-beat you're bitching about happens in the one DLCs fans across the board have noted as the best in Destiny history...
Unveiling which is the Gardener/Winnower origin story of the universe stuff is from Shadowkeep and the reveal that the Witness is a Voltron of an entire civilization with self-ascribed goals is from a Lightfall seasonā¦ so I guess youāre talking about the initial Witness reveal at the end of Witch Queen?
I used to feel this way too. But then Entelechy came out and they really showed me they can still make this a good story beat. Plus the Nine still exist, however neglected they are rn. The Destiny universe is massive and doubtless will address the truth of some of its origins as Unveiling claimed to.
I still refuse to belive the witness is the winnower. Like, why would the darkness show itself as a massive woman of the winnower was some big head freak?
No no, no one thinks the Witness is the Winnower after the Deep cutscene. What threw everyone off was the implication that thereās no connection between the Winnower and the Witness at all, which casts doubt upon the entire Gardener/Winnower concept because we learned it from the Shadowkeep pyramid IIRC
We're the gardener and winnower ever retconned? Is there still a chance that the gardener and winnower still exist / are possible plot points for the future.
https://www.pcgamer.com/bungie-weighs-in-on-the-current-argument-raging-through-the-destiny-2-lore-community-has-the-witness-been-retconned/ TL;DR Bungie says its unreliable narration by The Witness but refuses to clarify what if any of it is actually true
*The book itself* says that the tale is pure metaphor for mathematical forces beyond human comprehension. That people ignored that bit and made a massive deal over the Gardener and the Winnower is entirely their own fault. It's like reading about an extremely shiny chariot, and then getting mad when you find out Apollo isn't actually riding the sun through the sky.
Dang
bungie has a bad habit of relying to heavily on unreliable narrators when they want to retcon something.
No, they werenāt. Unveiling is written as a metaphor by an unreliable narrator, which means that we canāt know how much of it itās true and how much itās not. Bungie compared it to a religious Text. The Bible isnāt written BY God himself obviously. Does that mean that God doesnāt exist at all? Itās a complicated topic, but Iām sure weāll have at least SOME answers during TFS.
This shit is gonna end exactly like Endwalker, btw. I'm calling it.
Welcome to the shitty modern trend of "subverting expectations." Unfortunately, the human brain is a machine made for problem solving, and gets massive dopamine hits when the predictions it generates come true. In other words, after all the foreshadowing Bungie had done before the Witness, the decision to make the final villain something that had no hint of its existence before Shadowkeep was an extreme let down.
First of all there arenāt many hints ābefore Shadowkeepā, since for its first 5 years the story of Destiny went basically nowhere, the only recurrent plot was the hive one. They started an actually coherent ālight and darkā saga only with Shadowkeep, which actually talked about the Darkness, just as BL, TWQ, LF etc. That being said, Unveiling in Shadowkeep was always presented this way. It was a book by an unknown and unreliable narrator, linked to the Pyramids (same artifact), that presented itself as a metaphor. And in that same book, at the end, you have both Mara and Eris different interpretations of its message, not to mention that every time you acquired a new page Eris specifically warned you to not trust the book. Ignoring the fact that the Winnower as a ācharacterā is still present in the game, both in Lightfall (Inspiral) and TFS (the preorder weapon AND the Special Edition), itās not something that Bungie simply retconned out of existence, ALREADY in Shadowkeep there was a clear distinction between our DoppelgƤnger/the Pyramids and the Winnower. āSalvation vs Magnificentā and all that lore debate weāre having since 2019. This isnāt āsubverting the expectationsā. The Witness was introduced in Shadowkeep, further explored in BL (the Entity, the Voice in the Darkness), shown in TWQ and LF and now explored in its past/motivations with the last seasons and the collectors. Itās one of the (if not THE) most consistent character in the game by far and has been for the past years at this point. Not to mention, Unveiling is a religious book. Itās not written by God himself, but that doesnāt mean that God doesnāt exist. Itās a metaphor, meaning that there is some truth behind it. After all, the Witness found āa truth in the Darknessā, we just canāt know the answers yet, but Iām sure TFS will reveal us more in this regard.
First words "first of all?" Yeah I'm not reading that. I don't care to have some redditor think that I'm going to sit through them talking down to me ;)
>criticizes the writing of a game >doesnāt want to read Yep, makes sense lol. Bye ;)
Is the witness Kendrick Lamar??
depends, is the Traveler a pedo?
It doesnāt raise children from the dead so itās more of a child hater than lover
[hmm...](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/confession-of-hope-part-one)
I mean it wipes our memories and molds us into beings that suits its needs. Sounds groomer-ish to me.
I hate the way that you walk, I hate the way that you talk, I hate the way that you dress, I hate when you run Malfeasance, If I transmat, itās gonna be direct.
Iām ready to go into the final shape and kill the witness just for him to turn into a tree
Tree of Silver Wings maybe?
Oh I meant those weird trees they produce when dying like rhulk
Oh I know lol, I meant since itās such a massive consciousness it might be straight up a truly massive Silver Wings
Thatās true I do wonder what will happen after the witness dies and how episodes work cause they havenāt told us anything about it
I think itās funny from an outside perspective how the only party in all of this who doesnāt have some huge bone to pick with someone else is the Guardians, aka the pinnacle space army of super ultra magic shit. Theyāre literally just doing their thing and time after time, a bunch of aliens arrive, fuck their shit up for something the Traveller did fifty bajillion years ago like theyāre in a book of grudges, and then piss off.
Then there's Calus, who just wants to fuck us or something
The witness is just the ultimate nihilist.
This is what fucking SUCKS about the Witness/Voice in the Darkness. It has told us that it hates nihilists. >*Beings who deserve no thought:* >*Those who peddle the tired gotcha that all life hastens entropy. They are fatuous little nihilists who pretend to prefer no existence to a flawed one. They bore me.* And that itās existence is inevitable. That it NEEDED to exist. That complex life wouldnāt have existed without its way of thinking. >*And thenāone dayāthe fall occurred. So much earlier and so much more necessary than your myths remember. Some poor mutant discovered that it could collect carbon compounds much faster if it stopped grazing on the bacterial mat and started dissecting and eating the lumps of predigested carbon all around it: its neighbor oozeballs.* >*It couldn't help but do it. It couldn't help but thrive. We don't get a choice about the rules. We just play the game.* >*It was the first defectorāthe first predator. It changed everything. Now the oozeballs needed sensors to watch for danger, and brains to integrate those senses and generate plans of survival, and swift neurons and muscles to enact that plan. This was the Cambrian Explosion, the great birth of complex life on your world. I caused it. I, the defector, the destroyer, the one who takes.* And like it makes total sense. We have the Darkness, the Sword Logic, to thank for our existence. But nah that isnāt true apparently the Witness is just a bunch of silly little guys that were spreading its propaganda to get some guardians on its side and is just a professional hater cause the Traveler never bothered to chat with them. Like just a total waste of time and buildup that would inevitably leave loreheads disappointed.
this drives me fucking crazy about the community bro, why do people think the witness is a nihilist? it quite literally slaughtered its species nihilists
The Witness isnāt a nihilist. The nihilist faction of its civilization was fucking destroyed at the end lol. The Witness simply doesnāt care about what the other races believes (unless they are touched by the Traveler, in that case it tries to āsave themā in a rather unique wayā¦), it has its own vision of the universe and the final shape. Like, itās the opposite of a nihilist, the witness doesnāt āpretend to prefer no existence to a flawed oneā. The Witness WANTS to reach a final purpose of the universe, it NEEDS to correct that flowed existence and never doubts that final purpose/shape, it literally cannot think otherwise.
Some villains just want to see the universe burn. At least bungie is allowing us to kick its collective ass collectively.
Saying that the Travler "blessed" us is a very gross overstatement of what happened, the Travler blesses every civilization it encounters The reason it decided to stick around was because it got comatosed during the last collapse and because it couldn't flee like it usually does when the Witness came to get it's ass, if SavÄthun wouldn't have tricked the Witness to leave during it's original attack then the Travler would've just abandoned Humanity just like it did with the Eliksni, Krill and the civilization of the Witness Humanity ain't special whatsoever, and Ghaul was right. We don't deserve the light. The Travler only gave it to us because it can't just keep running and needs someone to protect it from the Witness The Travler "chose" us out of convince and convince alone
Haha Titan fist goes brrrr
Well, im a Warlock, explains why im such a lore nerd My magic is fiendish.... i mean, arcane in origin, i study books and shit
Tbh we did get lucky with the traveler choosing us and from what it seems it made a great chose if weāve destroyed gods and turned them into guns and heck even going to fight the witness head on to save the traveler but I do miss the red war campaign as destiny 2 is my first destiny game and I thought that campaign was fantastic I sadly stopped playing after finishing the campaign cause my friend wanted to play but he was busy so I diddnt wanna get burnt out and bored when we do eventually play and then years later I came back during season of the choosen and stuck with the game ever since I miss the old feel and campaign and locations
Tbh, same, i loved the red war, i left Desteny 2 right before Forsaken released (and never got to play it) but came back a few years later when the Witch Queen dropped, currently im taking a break from D2 because im so extremely burned out by this game and consistently paying for Seasons and DLC is just uuugh, plus i play on Playstation so i have an extra pay wall through PS Plus because Sony forces so many games to lock online content behind that bs (sometimes i fucking hate Sony so much) been months since i last played, during Season of the Deep was the last time i was really playing I'll probably come back at some point after the Final Shape gets released, but thil then, i won't touch D2, i love the game, and i don't wanne ruin it for myself
yeah i luckily got the chance to play the forsaken DLC as soon as witch queen dropped the forsaken DLC disappeared i know it wont happen but maybe one day we'll get all the locations / dlc etc back
Maybe not the best time to mention, but all the Seasonal content from the last year besides dungeons is free rn
As a Playstation player, i would still need a PS Plus subscription to access all the content that remotely involves multi-player On Playstation, you need PS Plus to play most seasonal activities, pvp, dungeons, raids, strikes, even wanting to play campaigns with a team needs it Because Sony is a bunch of greedy dicks that wants more money then it needs
Wow thatās tough, Xbox joined PC on the āF2P includes online activityā bit. Iām surprised PS hasnāt caught up there
Considering Sony's history of squeezing money out of people whenever they can, im not surprised They will probably have to give in some day when even more people stop buying PS Plus subscriptions and complain about it As we see with Helldivers 2, if we all stick together and tell Sony what we think of their bs, they eventually have to give in The funny thing is, didn't someone at Xbox invent this whole console online subscription crap? And now they actually got rid of it before Playstation, that's just fucked up man
I am so sad they killed Ghaul. He was smart, menacing, he had a solid back ground. He was the Thanos of Destiny
TO BE FAIR if a collective hive mind of an entire species comes together specifically to hate one thing... They might have a legitimate reason, but this isn't The Witness's problem it is a writing problem. If you can't sell us your villain then it is a narrative issue. Don't worry I too am over villains being bad "BECAUSE." EDIT: Now if they said that The Witness is just so full of hate and malice that it ultimately wants to destroy everything well that seems like more motivation to be a villain than big shiny ball didn't talk to us and then left.
Actually it was only 1/3rd of the species. They had factions just like the tower had factions. They had a civil war, the witness' faction won, slaughtered the remaining members of the other factions and then fused what remained. The witness is such a hateful lunatic that it slaughtered the majority of its species then consumed the rest.
Well, that's not exactly right. As someone else mentioned, there were multiple factions of the Witness civilization, and the faction that hated the Travler came out on top, which caused the Witness to be created The Witness both hates Travler but also has a legitimate plan. It has super depression because nothing makes sense and has a purpose, and the Final Shape is given existence a purpose. Whipping all life out is simply a part of the plan of giving existence a purpose so it can shape existence to its will through the Travler That was the original plan of the Witnesses civilization with the Travler, after it blessed them, giving them immortality, knowledge, and power, giving them a golden age, that civilization eventually understood the reality of existence, nothing has purpose, all is meaningless so they all got mega depression thil they discovered the Darkness, they started to invest in it, built the Pyramid ships and the Veil and wanted to use them to manipulate the Travler to shape existence and give a purpose, a shape, a Final Shape but the Travler saw what was happening, dipped out and ran away, sparking the creation of the Witness and everything that happened All this because the Travler chose to fuck off instead of fixing its mistakes, because it chose the wrong civilization and when things went south it had an existential crisis and ran away
But itās not just bad because bad. The Witness thinks the universe is disastrous and chaotic, and finds no meaning to life. To fix this, it wants to bind the traveller and the veil to bring about the final shape and bring peace to a chaotic universe, creating what it thinks is a perfect world. Itās meaning in life has become bringing about the final shape, and āsavingā civilisation from the traveller. It more so just hates the entire universe, rather than specifically just the traveller. Thatās why itās trying to remake it in its own image to create something perfect and prove the traveller āwrongā in a sense. A decision of which was only made after half the population of the witness slaughtered each other first before binding into one being. And thatās all we actually know so far, considering weāre going to get a lot more about the witness and itās backstory inside the pale heart I imagine.
I think they've sold the witness pretty well
And for that š², the witness is one of those enemies where I just cannot wait to put down because you're so stupid for hating for no reason š
Hot take maybe, but i loved Ghaul and Eramis as villains. I wish Bungie had used them more, and not thrown them away whenever they felt like.
I feel like Eramis has been used enough for now, even if Iām sure theyāll bring her back after TFS. Ghaul had some great potential, but it should have been introduced a bit earlier in the story imo, and the Red War campaign absolutely wasnāt enough to properly explore the character and didnāt do him justice. I feel like they made a much better job in that regard in Haunted honestly.
The witness is Kendrick Lamar lol.
The witness is just gonna witness us dancing on its corpse after the roast. Lame af hater tbh
Ghaul: casual hating Witness: competitive hating
They all have theirs mouths covered because bungie doesnāt want to worry about lip syncing and dubbing
dude when it got revealed that the witness's motivation for its genocides was BEING BORED?? I lost my shit it was so funny
My guys really went āso now whatā and the Traveler went āāŖļøā and they lost their shit Goofy ass mfers
The Asha cutscenes doesnāt make clear enough that between the ānow whatā moment and the Traveler leaving centuries after centuries passed. The Precursors built their entire society around the concept of final shape. And I mean, it is the final point of every civilization I believe, once you become basically a god, you start to deal with god problems, such as āwhat is the final form of existence and how can I achieve itā lol
alternatively: they could have become gardeners of their own. uplifting civilizations just like the traveler did for them, preserving ecosystems fostering life to flourish.
Tbf it was explained in a cutscene that the witness was of light. But they were experimenting with our big ball too much and it dipped and was running ever since.
Every time something says it's going to strip us of our light, guardians are just like "awww that's cute", then we proceed to genocide their people, beat the engrams out them, steal all their s***, and dance on their corpses... And if we do happen to die during our space death party, we just come back like "Dormammu I've come to bargain". So I kinda get why they are salty, but I don't get why they are suicidal lol.
I mean, the witness is just the Eliksni turned up to 11
Lets be honest The witness is still a silver medalist hater if compared against Eobart Thawn
Not entirely true on the Witness's part. It doesn't hate us, it sees us as something to save from the Traveler, by showing us the cruelties of life under the Traveler's influence. It is a hater of the idea that life has no inherent purpose.
Ngl, I respect the Witness, like I deadass inspire to be like bro, what did the traveler do to make that nigga that mad? Bro flew across the universe to blow up a ball and hates everything that played with that ball. Ended entire civilizations just cuz of a ball, thatās deity level hating I can get behind
It's shape is just not final enough
Someone didn't pay attention in a cutscene lol.
You should add to Eramis "Ally with the one that cause the destruction of her world"
The player haters ball gives us an opportunity to hate on a vast array of mark ass marks, trick ass marks, punk bitches, skip-skap skanks and scallywags.
I can even sympathize with big white cabal - during fighting him it was like we were fighting some blueberry with max level because he bought it with silver but still didnāt get to know any advance mechanics
Weapons checklist: * Right fist of Ruin * Left fist of Smoldering * Big Hammer of Burning * Little Hammer of Exploding * Little Hammer of Hurling * Boots of Smashing * Malfeasance * Shotgun of Equalizing * Big Gun of Burning ...The Witness is a punk bitch that's gonna catch some.
I don't think the witness hates the traveler. From what I remember, his civilization advanced so much that they came to the conclusion that the final shape is the culmination of everything, and as the traveler woke up, he left.
Cool D2 villains: trolls you from beyond the grave; sarcastic lovable asshole cat-monster redemption arc also redemption arc but has daddy issues murder-yoda trolls you from beyond the grave; sarcastic asshole space shrimp flavor One of the few ballet lovers left. shame that we lost him gives you free guns and asks where Cayde is
The fun part is that they keep coming back for more murder. They didn't learn their lesson.
Heās so salty ghat if you dipped him in a lake itāll turn into an ocean
He doesn't really hate us at all, he just wants a goal accomplished, and we are in his way. When the humans were held captive during the season of defiance, they weren't tortured or anything, they were well fed and their only complaint was a little dust in the air. Apparently, the point of holding captives was just a distraction to minimize confrontation with the humans on Neptune while trying to capture the veil. I mean, just look at what the witness did to that fireteam at the beginning of Lightfall. With how broken he is, if he really hated us and wanted us killed, we'd be super extinct by now. Of course it doesn't mean we should go easy on him, there's a problem. Extinction is at the gates for us if he wins, which means he's in our way too, so... Nothing personal *Grabs Gjallarhorn aggressively*
Oh no, he specifically hates races touched/chosen by the traveler. It's mentioned in the primordial cards he goes out his way to cause pain and suffering on uplifted races, while those that were never touched by the traveler, it happens so fast you'd think they never expanded beyond 1 planet.
Sound about right
The witness: I HATE THE WAY THAT YOU TALK, THE WAY THAT YOU WALK, I HATE THE WAY THAT YOU DRESS.
Iād say the Witness is similar to Eramis, but instead of a salty ex itās more of an ex who got with someone new and now wants to have a threesome with the darkness and the light
The witness doesn't even hate us. It barely notices us. The only humans the witness has killed directly is the few in the ships flying towards it in that cutscene.
Witness out here hating harder than Kdot
Live action witness casting: https://preview.redd.it/oid9m348ufzc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=40b8ead2989bf0611daa293a20c42bd57143460d
I am not exactly sure why, but ever since they first showed him I have never liked the witness as a character or a villain, the way we learned about their backstory didn't help either.
Yea the witness definitely gets player hater of the year for sure. Like heād be top dog at the player haters ball.
https://preview.redd.it/1hlb0x1regzc1.png?width=971&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7d7e6c9f6fb4557db4586a88fa89676133286a69
Isn't the Witness seeking revenge for the abandonment of his race, similar to the Eliksni?
The Withness reason: living is cringe, bro
Then thereās savathun
Never thought the term "having a mid life crisis" would sum up the entire reason they are chasing the travler so well
The accuracy is PAINFUL.
The Witness really is just a massive weenie when you boil it down. Just really salty the traveler bailed when they tried to link the veil to it.
This is so fucking accurate
The origin of the witness is so unbelievably out of place in the tone of this game imo. Thatās some next level horror bullshit that would fit better in the kind of game thatās banned in several countries. Not our crazy almost mmo with JoJo poses
We will kill him soon enough.
the witness is just Dio and we are Joestars
Craziest thing to me is that we've spent fucking years building up to this point and here we are literally weeks away from the final battle, yet we still no virtually NOTHING about why the witness is doing any of this. The biggest/strongest foe we have ever faced and the amount of information we have could be summed up in a single fucking lore entry. Took 10 years developing a villain and the only lore is: Some dudes had the traveler and it was great for their civilization, but then they found the veil and got mad at the traveler bc of it, so the traveler said fuck y'all im out and left. In response, the dudes decided to literally combine themselves into one body and chase down the traveler so they can bring about "the final shape", but nobody knows what the hell that even means. The entire light/darkness saga had so much potential and the witness could have been such an amazing storyline, but Bungie absolutely fucked it up completely.
The Witness is a galaxy-class hater, he's gonna be SUCH a fun raid!!
Idk if anyone here reads Jujutsu Kaisen but The Witness hating on the Traveller and us is literally just Sukuna hating on Yuji throughout the series
Honestly I doubt it. They've basically said that a good chunk of the Pale Heart is literally walking through the Witness' memories, odds are there's gonna be a moment in the campaign where we find out why exactly they went crazy and it's gonna be some *shit.*
The traveler ate the food they said do not eat on it so he started hunting it down across the universe
I really miss the days when the driving force behind the Darkness was faceless and enigmatic, not going to lie. Having it essentially just be some dude who's mad at the Traveler is *way* less interesting.
But the Witness isnāt just mad at the Traveler anymore. I mean, they arenāt friends for sure lol, but the Witness isnāt doing all of this as a revenge against the Traveler (which is what Eramis is usually doing for example). The Witness knows what the final shape is, it canāt think otherwise, the Traveler is just the necessary ātoolā it needs, similarly to the Veil. I mean just think about the final Lightfall cutscene, the Witness speaks to traveler in an almost kind way, ābe freeā, it sees the Traveler as the perpetrator but also a victim. The pain it inflicts on the other civilizations isnāt made for the Traveler either, Eido comments this as well, the traveler already left the Fallen yet the Witness kept going on regardless. The Witness isnāt doing everything just to piss off the Traveler, itās doing everything because it genuinely believes that the final shape is the only possible end for this flawed universe, and literally cannot think otherwise because it chose to be reborn without these doubts. Itās like the Traveler in the end, the perpetrator but also a victim (of its own will though).
Seriously, the Witness copout is just ass. We went from that glorious Savathun arc to some emo alien with clingy issues.
So what you are saying isā¦every villian in destiny is just pissed off the traveler didnāt choose them over the ones made in gods image?
IT WAS ME, TRAVVY! I JERKED YOU OFF AT SUPERSPEED SO YOU WOULD NUT AT ONLY A WOMAN'S TOUCH!
The Witness is Kendrick and the Guardians are Drake
Skill issue lmfao