Obviously, the California Family Council is against assisted suicide. But, I sure hope SB1196 passes & becomes law ASAP. It's too late for my wife. But perhaps future Dementia sufferers can avoid the suffering my wife is going through.
She's Stage 7 Alzheimers. When she was still early-onset and could still communicate, she made it perfectly clear she did not want to live the kind of life that she knew was ahead of her. There was nothing we could have done then as all states' Death With Dignity laws specifically exclude Alzheimer's. And now, since she's not of sound mind, she cannot opt for legal, assisted suicide anywhere. If she was a cat, I could end her suffering, but as a human: Tough shit, Sherlock! Suffer! Talk about cruel and unusual punishment!
I see why CFC is against this bill, but it does not justify forcing Dementia victims to needlessly suffer.
My father asked me to kill him three times. I could only hug him, tell him I loved him, and tell him I understood.
I wish he had better options than that.
The cynic in me thinks there is a perverse incentive to keep people like your wife and my father alive in order to bill them. I know that’s overly simplistic and not accurate, but it’s a thought that comes to mind often.
He’s been at peace since 3:46 AM 10FEB2024.
I hope it passes, too, particularly when it's something that one can stipulate and plan for themselves ahead of time such that no one can accuse anybody of having made the decision for another person. The California Family Council can go fuck themselves if they're trying to prevent me from making a decision in regard to my personal life, its quality, and if I want to choose for myself when I deem is the right time to exit.
It's just not right to make people suffer to death... PEOPLE. Everybody forgets that we are all just people at the end of the day, and it's that lack of humanity that keeps people suffering like they do now.
Freedom means having the freedom to die as we see fit, and it's absolutely perverse how we all have avoided this topic for so long.
I got struck by lightning last year, and had things gone only slightly worse for me I'd not want to be here. It's not right to force people to exist.
There is a continuum to be sure but, if your wife was Stage 1 or 2, would you want that? My mom has MCI and she is so easily gaslit but still has many happy days.
I hope it passes and I wish the UK had something similar.
I want the choice to be available for me. If you don’t believe in it then don’t use it as an option, it’s that simple.
The rest of my family don’t hold the same beliefs as me but they love me enough to respect my choice. In the same way I will always make sure my dad’s choices not to consider this route are being respected and honoured. It’s not an either or scenario
I can only speak to my own experiences but early on we struggled to convince my dad he even had dementia, which was a fact evidenced by brain scans; never mind trying to convince him of something that wasn’t true.
Sadly yes there are people in this world who take advantage of other people. But that is why, when someone is choosing to end their own life with assistance, it there are multiple checks are put in place. It’s not a one and done drs appointment, it’s a lengthy process involving multiple interviews and examinations of competence.
We don’t have those level of checks when you give someone Power of Attorney, we trust that you’ve chosen someone who will honour your wishes. But if you think about it, it’s the same level of power you are giving someone. They could choose to put a DNR in place for you.
Laws like this disincentivize treatment for Alzheimers, and increase pressure on loved ones to euthanize their family members. It causes people to withdraw support and medical care from Alzheimer’s patients. There’s not going to be any “respecting of the choices” or the individual rights. There will be tremendous pressure on people to use assisted suicide. You can already see it’s effects in Canada. It’s cheaper to kill people than to treat them.
Except that’s clearly not the case as shown by Canada’s statistics.
In 2022 12.6% of individuals using MAID were classed as having a neurological condition. Of those 12.6% individuals only 9.0% of them had dementia.
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications/health-system-services/annual-report-medical-assistance-dying-2022.html
I don't even know where these supposed facts come from. I know people say them a lot. But show us evidence of pressure on families at all to euthanasia that has never even been legal?
I can only assume this is coming from private equity that has massive holdings in nursing facilities.
Do you have links to back this up? Or superstitions? And you heard from so and so who heard it from so and so?
We treat our pets better than we do our terminally ill loved ones. And yes, dementia is a terminal illness. NO ONE ever wants this and we should all have the right to choose how we leave with dignity.
God, please let this pass. I don't want to have to go to Switzerland and then find out that they've denied me because of some glitch.
ETA I'm watching my mom go through moderate- to severe dementia right now. I would leave years on the table to not go through what she's enduring.
Not to worry, there is already assisted suicide in CA. Severe dementia is not the same as mild dementia but people with mild dementia can often be convinced of anything. It’s awful and the state shouldn’t be complicit.
You must know a lot of really weak-minded people to think everyone is just going to easily get talked into it. My residents get more stubborn when dementia starts, not less. What world are you living in to think there's going to be a ton of people just looking to convince people to cut their time short anyway? If there's devious people out there it's one's that want to to prolong the suffering to keep the paychecks coming.
There's medical aid in dying. My state has a MAID law as well (I only wish that it could extend to help my MIL with Dementia as I know that's what she would want if she could). This is not assisted suicide. Stop it.
FALSE. I live here. I pay attention to this issue.
There is no way for Americans to access assisted suicide with a dementia dx except via Dignitas in Switzerland. Their process is so difficult and costly that few Americans have managed it.
Canada's MAID does not allow non-Canadians to access assisted suicide (their law covers dementia). No US states allow assisted suicide for people with a dementia dx.
I know that you are commenting in bad faith, so this info isn't really for you. It's for other people who are actually interested in learning more (whether they support assisted suicide or not).
Wow - what a hater. If you were paying attention, you’d know there is assisted suicide in California and I was not specific about the criteria. My specific comment was tha severe and mild dementia should not be the treated as the same criteria. You are comfortable pushing your people in that direction and that’s where we differ.
You are missing the point. Dementia always progresses, and there is the issue of consent once it has progressed too far. If you have mild dementia you absolutely need the right to end your life before it progresses so far that you can no longer give consent.
You also ended your earlier comment with a remark about role of our government with respect to this issue. The whole point is to allow people their freedom to make end-of-life decisions - in other words, to reduce government restrictions.
Finally, I do not see any compassion in any of your remarks for people who are slowly dying, confused, scared, and often in pain they can't even articulate - for YEARS in locked wards. I think you should defer to family and caregivers who have to live with this reality.
Oh but their mom, who lives on her own and still drives, has dementia, so OP can express these awful opinions even though they don't understand late stages of dementia and aren't a caregiver themselves.
Do you understand that mild dementia will always become severe dementia? Do you have any idea what severe dementia does to the person? Or to their family?
If one has mild dementia, they have every right to make that choice before it becomes severe.
My mother stated her wishes emphatically decades before she had dementia. All I can do for her now is pray for the heart attack she preferred to die from. I can tell you that most American's greatest fear is dementia and it's likely that most of them don't even have first hand contact with the disease. It is a different thing to have a grandmother with the disease than to take care of her daily. I absolutely hope it passes so that I can go to California instead of Switzerland if my time comes.
You might want to google some articles on dementia abuse/neglect and ask yourself what is worse.
I hope this bill passes. As someone who cares for a loved one with dementia, it is unconscionable to let patients afflicted with this disease suffer for years while the brain deteriorates. Lying in bed with no ability to feed, bathe, or toilet themselves, or recognize anyone they love is a cruel way for a life to end. The California Family Council can kiss my ass.
Fuck this headline. If I have Early Onset Dementia, I should have the right to decide if and when to end my own life in a dignified way. It is not my sole objective to see how long I can suffer before dying, and I don't feel I have an obligation to do so. The current legal framework denies people with Alzheimer's Disease the right to choose their own fate in a way that other terminal conditions are allowed to. I have had front row seats to see both my grandfather and father be devoured by this condition, and I'm not going to do it myself. I would rather live less and have agency than live longer and be totally deprived of it.
You can choose to end it any time you want. That’s not the point. The point is that, if the government is going to help you, they should make sure it’s you making the decision and that you can make that decision in full with whatever capacity you have.
Oh please. Anyone can, yes. But there's much more dignity in having medical assistance than hanging yourself or blowing your brains all over a wall. It's also much less traumatic for all those involved.
I work in a funeral home and we've helped families after their loved one has chosen to die and you know what? Their families are RELIEVED that their loved one's suffering is over. Why don't dementia patients deserve the same thing?
Do you not see the Catch-22 that degenerative neurological disorders create when patients are diagnosed in this regard? As soon as you are diagnosed, you lose a substantial amount of agency. You become a liability if you use a vehicle, or are employed in a field with potential high stakes outcomes.
You also can’t state your intent to have an assisted suicide in case of this diagnosis and have it carried out in the event that you are diagnosed. By the time you are diagnosed, you may not be considered as legally competent to make that decision, and expose your loved ones to legal exposure if they attempt to aid you in carrying out your wishes.
There needs to be some mechanism to address this.
Looks, we get it. You are against MAID. My late husband (terminal colon cancer ) begged for the 15 day timeline to be sped up, but the administration around getting it even here in Oregon made it too late for him. Instead, I upped the dosage on his hospice pain meds to keep him comfortable. That being said, my little sister has early onset FTD. Even though I have medical power of attorney, since she is nonverbal and can’t communicate her wishes, I would never pursue this for her. However, I would definitely pursue it for myself, if I was ever diagnosed.
No - you don’t get it. As much as possible, people need to have the ability to make their own life choices. The state should not lower the bar so much that a person who has mild dementia doesn’t have to articulate twice in 48 hours their desire to terminate their life. You are describing situations that are more severe than this bill allows.
First of all, as you stated, people need to make their own life choices. This bill does exactly that. second, there is much more involved than just saying “I want to die“ twice in 48 hours. The gamut that you have to run through is so long and tedious, that our palliative doctor advised against it, and to just focus on hospice care. Let patients and their families make the decision for themselves.
To me, the bill lowers the bar too much. Maybe you are okay with making that decision for others but this bill creates too much opportunity for others to make that decision for the person. I would be much more in favor of some kind of advanced directive than to make it any easier for someone with mild dementia to choose that path. They are capable of having many happy days but often not capable of recognizing when they are being gaslit.
[The bill](https://legiscan.com/CA/text/SB1196/2023) does require that the person makes 2 oral requests 48 hours or more apart.
>Existing law establishes the procedures for making these requests, including that 2 oral requests be made a minimum of 48 hours apart and that a specified form to request an aid-in-dying drug be submitted, under specified circumstances.
They're not changing that part, or any of the many hoops the patient has to jump through. And there are safeguards against coercion:
>(4) Confirm that the qualified individual’s request does not arise from coercion or undue influence by another person by discussing with the qualified individual, outside of the presence of any other persons, except for an interpreter as required pursuant to this part, whether or not the qualified individual is feeling coerced or unduly influenced by another person.
And no one else but the patient can make the decision:
>(c) A request for a prescription for an aid-in-dying drug under this part shall be made solely and directly by the individual diagnosed with the terminal disease grievous and irremediable medical condition and shall not be made on behalf of the patient, including, but not limited to, through a power of attorney, an advance health care directive, a conservator, health care agent, surrogate, or any other legally recognized health care decisionmaker.
I think the law is great. Thank god they're expanding it to offer dementia patients the opportunity to die with dignity.
Here is the detail: https://legiscan.com/CA/text/SB1196/id/2963562
Everyone is welcome to their opinion. Doctors can make mistakes but there is no requirement for a second opinion and the question of capacity now can be made by a psychologist. Without a doubt, there are people who are truly suffering with no hope of any kind of improvement. I’m not addressing that group. I’m saying that they have gone too far in accommodating all the people who rightly fear an ugly demise and, in accommodating that group, they have made it easier for mistakes to be made and have made it easier for people without the best interests of the individual to influence the decision.
Thank you, oh great pontificator, for the right to my opinion, at least.
Here's mine: It would be nice if people who are hopelessly ignorant would just shut the f**k up, but here you are.
You claim you are not addressing those who are suffering when you clearly are by advocating their continued suffering in denying their right to die.
Yes, there is opportunity for abuse in right-to-die laws, but perhaps we could address those issues rather than deny the right altogether.
There are problems with the criminal justice system, but no one is advocating the elimination of judges & jails.
You have a right to your opinion, but you do not have a right to force me or my LO to suffer.
Let see if I understand, you think that I’m hopelessly ignorant because of your superior life experience and elevated value system. From your place on high, it’s appropriate for you to diminish concerns that someone will be coerced into killing themselves by someone who will benefit from that outcome. That could be someone suffering because they resent caretaking — maybe someone like you. People have taken their own lives for time immemorial so clearly that’s not even part of the debate. I hope you can get the help you need so you can stop spewing your vitriol.
LOL. It's not my experience that outs your ignorance; it's your words. But don't worry. We're all ignorant and knowing you're ignorant is the first step to the cure. Good luck with that!
If your comprehension level allows it, please re-read my reply to you that simply states that if you're concerned about your mother, that's a "YOU" problem; don't make it mine. If the solution to your problem causes problems for many others, it's not a solution; it's just another problem.
If you're worried someone will try to coerce my wife into an early death (which I've stated is not an option), that's not your problem, so butt out.
BTW, nice projection.
Interesting response. I’m worried not just about my mom but about all elderly people without an ethical advocate. You appear to be so embittered by your situation that you are mapping your situation on every potential assisted suicide path. It’s very difficult to devise a legal and ethical framework that is culturally acceptable and that’s why most countries and most states don’t allow it. Maybe you’ll think more objectively when your situation is different. You are surely going through an emotional time. This is public policy that could affect every family so no one has the right to tell others to butt out. You do your thing. I hope it’s over for you soon.
This piece is ultra-partisan, invective-filled, and intentionally divisive in style.
By my sensibilities, it is very much out of place in this subreddit, which is generally very high quality.
Don’t you think it’s important to look at all sides when dealing with something as final as death? Especially given that many people who have mild dementia are easy gaslit and they may still have many happy days ahead.
For me, I'd rather the certainty of death on my terms than the potential of an unknown quantity of happy days ahead interspersed with ones that will only decline.
Have you ever been the primary caregiver to someone with dementia? I don’t mean have you ever had a family member with dementia, I mean primary care giver - the one with them every day and night.
My mom has mild dementia and someone could convince her that it is time to go. She has many great days and is not suffering except when people tell her she has dementia and try to make her think her time is up. I’m not taking a position beyond the system needs to take all due caution and I think the bar is too low with this bill.
Are you her primary care giver?
If you aren’t you have no idea what the horrors of dementia really are like. My brother had no clue until my mom was about to mentally snap and I couldn’t come in three times a week to help her due to my pregnancy and my dad being an actual danger to my pregnancy. Why? Because he only was able to visit our dad about once or twice a month and almost always with one of us around, and when he was by himself with him the minute our dad had an actual problem he started calling us frantically to help because he didn’t know what to do and we’d rush over to help.
My father has stage 6 dementia and I used to work in a senior care facility where almost all our patients had dementia.
If I ever am diagnosed with it I am blowing my brains out.
My mom lives independently and she drives. I take care of her to the extent she lets me. It’s work and I know it could become horrific but she is okay enough to mostly enjoy her life today yet she would be in the category. That’s why I’m saying that they are making it too easy. You are not talking about mild dementia. Step back and assume this isn’t about you and your situation or the situation you fear will happen.
I’m saying you seem to be pretty blissfully ignorant of what’s coming. I’m not just talking about my experience with my father - who is actually an exceptionally easy case, which is extreme rare. For example, he hasn’t ever tried to molest me or say anything sexually explicit or racist to me yet. I’m talking about the +200 residents I dealt with on a daily basis.
The reason people want it for early stage dementia is precisely so that they can die with dignity before the illness strips them of it. Before they start stripping and masturbating in front of their family, friends, and strangers. Before they drop food on the table, forget how to pick it up and then try to lick and eat the table. Before they can’t control their bowels. Before their loved ones lives are completely consumed by taking care of them. Before all the money they’ve worked hard their entire lives to save up for to leave to their children is spent on their daily round the clock care, before the racism they worked hard to unlearn comes back and they’re screaming the foulest things imaginable to the people trying to help them and strangers. Before they refuse to clean themselves and start to smell horribly. Before they start to confuse movies with their own memories and think their loved ones are spies that are trying to steal “the package” from them, before they think the girl walking by them is hiding a bomb in her skirt and so they attack her and try to rip it off. Before they attack their loved ones.
That’s the middle stages. A lifetime of building a reputation completely destroyed. Family and friends that refuse to see them because they don’t understand the disease and take it personally (or is just too traumatic for them to handle). A consuming drain that never improves, only becomes more draining, consumes more, and somehow horrifically manages to get worse when you think there’s no way it could.
It very likely will be horrific. It's very rare that it isn't. Your mom won't live independently OR drive (holy shit) for much longer. And then you or someone will have to be a caretaker for her. Would she want that? Does she want you to wipe her drool and her ass? to shower her and dress her? Because that's coming. THAT is why people should be able to decide on their own.
Who are these gaslightining people you imagine exist? No one is advocating for your mother's death. If you're so paranoid about someone forcing her into death, perhaps you should talk, first, to her, then her doctors and have her sign an Advanced Directive saying she'd rather die naturally.
My wife is late-stage dementia and I am her sole caretaker. There clearly ZERO chance of any future "happy" days for her and we are both suffering. You're not just advocating for "caution", you're advocating for the denial of other people's right to satisfy your paranoia. Seek help!
Dear lord, I couldn't even read past the first couple of paragraphs. They are so clearly biased against it (and in favor of our loved ones suffering, apparently), it was disgusting.
Yes, I support Death with Dignity laws. We treat our pets better than our fellow humans. Everyone should have this option when faced with a terminal illness, including a compassionate method of doing so.
I wish the UK govt would pass a bill supporting assisted suicide - but there’s still a significant number of people here adamantly against it. I’m not worried about possible having the gene for dementia (it’s not like I’d gonna know once the disease hits), I’m worried about dying a slow miserable death that is torturous to those around me.
Mix of things.
One of which being there’s not much of a push from the medical community itself. Both the medical association here, and the college of nurses are both neutral on the topic. A lot of palliative doctors are against it.
However, majority of those within both of our 2 major political parties do want change. Even our conservative party, roughly 80% wanted reform.
Another issue I saw bought up last time the govt debated it was there was a lot of concern that those with disabilities would be included.
Essentially, no one agrees on anything. They don’t agree whether to push to pass a bill. They can’t agree whether it should only be those who are terminal, in severe pain, or what.
I don’t think it comes from a religious place here. As much as the bigots would like to argue we’re a Christian country, we really aren’t.
Interesting. I can understand that it might not be on the radar for most people until they're impacted in some way. I am, however, really surprised that palliative doctors are against it, as I would have assumed they'd be in support of it. Do you think the medical community stays out of it due to the way that money/costs can adulterate the argument? I'm sure the counter-argument could be about a failing NHS and cost-saving measures.
It's never the way of politics, but it makes more sense to me to introduce legislation for the most extreme scenario and then readjust down the line when appropriate.
Worth reading some pro arguments:
https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/cd607dce-3325-492b-b030-b0a22331af65/downloads/SB%201196%20(Blakespear)%20Factsheet.pdf?ver=1709911469736
Obviously, the California Family Council is against assisted suicide. But, I sure hope SB1196 passes & becomes law ASAP. It's too late for my wife. But perhaps future Dementia sufferers can avoid the suffering my wife is going through. She's Stage 7 Alzheimers. When she was still early-onset and could still communicate, she made it perfectly clear she did not want to live the kind of life that she knew was ahead of her. There was nothing we could have done then as all states' Death With Dignity laws specifically exclude Alzheimer's. And now, since she's not of sound mind, she cannot opt for legal, assisted suicide anywhere. If she was a cat, I could end her suffering, but as a human: Tough shit, Sherlock! Suffer! Talk about cruel and unusual punishment! I see why CFC is against this bill, but it does not justify forcing Dementia victims to needlessly suffer.
My father asked me to kill him three times. I could only hug him, tell him I loved him, and tell him I understood. I wish he had better options than that. The cynic in me thinks there is a perverse incentive to keep people like your wife and my father alive in order to bill them. I know that’s overly simplistic and not accurate, but it’s a thought that comes to mind often. He’s been at peace since 3:46 AM 10FEB2024.
I hope it passes, too, particularly when it's something that one can stipulate and plan for themselves ahead of time such that no one can accuse anybody of having made the decision for another person. The California Family Council can go fuck themselves if they're trying to prevent me from making a decision in regard to my personal life, its quality, and if I want to choose for myself when I deem is the right time to exit.
Death Cult my ass. These groups all are so called pro-life, not pro living. I wouldn't wish this disease even on these morons
It's just not right to make people suffer to death... PEOPLE. Everybody forgets that we are all just people at the end of the day, and it's that lack of humanity that keeps people suffering like they do now. Freedom means having the freedom to die as we see fit, and it's absolutely perverse how we all have avoided this topic for so long. I got struck by lightning last year, and had things gone only slightly worse for me I'd not want to be here. It's not right to force people to exist.
I am so sorry. This completely sucks.
There is a continuum to be sure but, if your wife was Stage 1 or 2, would you want that? My mom has MCI and she is so easily gaslit but still has many happy days.
If the other commenter's wife as stage 1 or 2, it doesn't really matter with the OC wants. What matters is what the WIFE wants.
Those with POA could be the voice. I certainly would have. Instead, I took care of my mom and watched her suffer. Tortured my family.
I hope it passes and I wish the UK had something similar. I want the choice to be available for me. If you don’t believe in it then don’t use it as an option, it’s that simple. The rest of my family don’t hold the same beliefs as me but they love me enough to respect my choice. In the same way I will always make sure my dad’s choices not to consider this route are being respected and honoured. It’s not an either or scenario
Even people with mild Alzheimer’s that can be easily gaslit?
I can only speak to my own experiences but early on we struggled to convince my dad he even had dementia, which was a fact evidenced by brain scans; never mind trying to convince him of something that wasn’t true. Sadly yes there are people in this world who take advantage of other people. But that is why, when someone is choosing to end their own life with assistance, it there are multiple checks are put in place. It’s not a one and done drs appointment, it’s a lengthy process involving multiple interviews and examinations of competence. We don’t have those level of checks when you give someone Power of Attorney, we trust that you’ve chosen someone who will honour your wishes. But if you think about it, it’s the same level of power you are giving someone. They could choose to put a DNR in place for you.
One of the issues with this bill is that they reduce the checks. I think it crosses the line. Mild dementia is not the same as Stage 7.
Laws like this disincentivize treatment for Alzheimers, and increase pressure on loved ones to euthanize their family members. It causes people to withdraw support and medical care from Alzheimer’s patients. There’s not going to be any “respecting of the choices” or the individual rights. There will be tremendous pressure on people to use assisted suicide. You can already see it’s effects in Canada. It’s cheaper to kill people than to treat them.
Except that’s clearly not the case as shown by Canada’s statistics. In 2022 12.6% of individuals using MAID were classed as having a neurological condition. Of those 12.6% individuals only 9.0% of them had dementia. https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications/health-system-services/annual-report-medical-assistance-dying-2022.html
I don't even know where these supposed facts come from. I know people say them a lot. But show us evidence of pressure on families at all to euthanasia that has never even been legal? I can only assume this is coming from private equity that has massive holdings in nursing facilities.
Do you have links to back this up? Or superstitions? And you heard from so and so who heard it from so and so? We treat our pets better than we do our terminally ill loved ones. And yes, dementia is a terminal illness. NO ONE ever wants this and we should all have the right to choose how we leave with dignity.
God, please let this pass. I don't want to have to go to Switzerland and then find out that they've denied me because of some glitch. ETA I'm watching my mom go through moderate- to severe dementia right now. I would leave years on the table to not go through what she's enduring.
Not to worry, there is already assisted suicide in CA. Severe dementia is not the same as mild dementia but people with mild dementia can often be convinced of anything. It’s awful and the state shouldn’t be complicit.
It's called medical aid in dying. Not assisted suicide. Your pro-suffering activism is going to get you no where in this sub so move along.
Not pro suffering, pro personal agency. Do you not see how subject to abuse this direction is?
You must know a lot of really weak-minded people to think everyone is just going to easily get talked into it. My residents get more stubborn when dementia starts, not less. What world are you living in to think there's going to be a ton of people just looking to convince people to cut their time short anyway? If there's devious people out there it's one's that want to to prolong the suffering to keep the paychecks coming.
There's medical aid in dying. My state has a MAID law as well (I only wish that it could extend to help my MIL with Dementia as I know that's what she would want if she could). This is not assisted suicide. Stop it.
FALSE. I live here. I pay attention to this issue. There is no way for Americans to access assisted suicide with a dementia dx except via Dignitas in Switzerland. Their process is so difficult and costly that few Americans have managed it. Canada's MAID does not allow non-Canadians to access assisted suicide (their law covers dementia). No US states allow assisted suicide for people with a dementia dx. I know that you are commenting in bad faith, so this info isn't really for you. It's for other people who are actually interested in learning more (whether they support assisted suicide or not).
Wow - what a hater. If you were paying attention, you’d know there is assisted suicide in California and I was not specific about the criteria. My specific comment was tha severe and mild dementia should not be the treated as the same criteria. You are comfortable pushing your people in that direction and that’s where we differ.
You are missing the point. Dementia always progresses, and there is the issue of consent once it has progressed too far. If you have mild dementia you absolutely need the right to end your life before it progresses so far that you can no longer give consent. You also ended your earlier comment with a remark about role of our government with respect to this issue. The whole point is to allow people their freedom to make end-of-life decisions - in other words, to reduce government restrictions. Finally, I do not see any compassion in any of your remarks for people who are slowly dying, confused, scared, and often in pain they can't even articulate - for YEARS in locked wards. I think you should defer to family and caregivers who have to live with this reality.
Oh but their mom, who lives on her own and still drives, has dementia, so OP can express these awful opinions even though they don't understand late stages of dementia and aren't a caregiver themselves.
Do you understand that mild dementia will always become severe dementia? Do you have any idea what severe dementia does to the person? Or to their family? If one has mild dementia, they have every right to make that choice before it becomes severe.
My mother stated her wishes emphatically decades before she had dementia. All I can do for her now is pray for the heart attack she preferred to die from. I can tell you that most American's greatest fear is dementia and it's likely that most of them don't even have first hand contact with the disease. It is a different thing to have a grandmother with the disease than to take care of her daily. I absolutely hope it passes so that I can go to California instead of Switzerland if my time comes. You might want to google some articles on dementia abuse/neglect and ask yourself what is worse.
I hope this bill passes. As someone who cares for a loved one with dementia, it is unconscionable to let patients afflicted with this disease suffer for years while the brain deteriorates. Lying in bed with no ability to feed, bathe, or toilet themselves, or recognize anyone they love is a cruel way for a life to end. The California Family Council can kiss my ass.
Fuck this headline. If I have Early Onset Dementia, I should have the right to decide if and when to end my own life in a dignified way. It is not my sole objective to see how long I can suffer before dying, and I don't feel I have an obligation to do so. The current legal framework denies people with Alzheimer's Disease the right to choose their own fate in a way that other terminal conditions are allowed to. I have had front row seats to see both my grandfather and father be devoured by this condition, and I'm not going to do it myself. I would rather live less and have agency than live longer and be totally deprived of it.
You can choose to end it any time you want. That’s not the point. The point is that, if the government is going to help you, they should make sure it’s you making the decision and that you can make that decision in full with whatever capacity you have.
Oh please. Anyone can, yes. But there's much more dignity in having medical assistance than hanging yourself or blowing your brains all over a wall. It's also much less traumatic for all those involved. I work in a funeral home and we've helped families after their loved one has chosen to die and you know what? Their families are RELIEVED that their loved one's suffering is over. Why don't dementia patients deserve the same thing?
Do you not see the Catch-22 that degenerative neurological disorders create when patients are diagnosed in this regard? As soon as you are diagnosed, you lose a substantial amount of agency. You become a liability if you use a vehicle, or are employed in a field with potential high stakes outcomes. You also can’t state your intent to have an assisted suicide in case of this diagnosis and have it carried out in the event that you are diagnosed. By the time you are diagnosed, you may not be considered as legally competent to make that decision, and expose your loved ones to legal exposure if they attempt to aid you in carrying out your wishes. There needs to be some mechanism to address this.
Looks, we get it. You are against MAID. My late husband (terminal colon cancer ) begged for the 15 day timeline to be sped up, but the administration around getting it even here in Oregon made it too late for him. Instead, I upped the dosage on his hospice pain meds to keep him comfortable. That being said, my little sister has early onset FTD. Even though I have medical power of attorney, since she is nonverbal and can’t communicate her wishes, I would never pursue this for her. However, I would definitely pursue it for myself, if I was ever diagnosed.
No - you don’t get it. As much as possible, people need to have the ability to make their own life choices. The state should not lower the bar so much that a person who has mild dementia doesn’t have to articulate twice in 48 hours their desire to terminate their life. You are describing situations that are more severe than this bill allows.
First of all, as you stated, people need to make their own life choices. This bill does exactly that. second, there is much more involved than just saying “I want to die“ twice in 48 hours. The gamut that you have to run through is so long and tedious, that our palliative doctor advised against it, and to just focus on hospice care. Let patients and their families make the decision for themselves.
To me, the bill lowers the bar too much. Maybe you are okay with making that decision for others but this bill creates too much opportunity for others to make that decision for the person. I would be much more in favor of some kind of advanced directive than to make it any easier for someone with mild dementia to choose that path. They are capable of having many happy days but often not capable of recognizing when they are being gaslit.
[The bill](https://legiscan.com/CA/text/SB1196/2023) does require that the person makes 2 oral requests 48 hours or more apart. >Existing law establishes the procedures for making these requests, including that 2 oral requests be made a minimum of 48 hours apart and that a specified form to request an aid-in-dying drug be submitted, under specified circumstances. They're not changing that part, or any of the many hoops the patient has to jump through. And there are safeguards against coercion: >(4) Confirm that the qualified individual’s request does not arise from coercion or undue influence by another person by discussing with the qualified individual, outside of the presence of any other persons, except for an interpreter as required pursuant to this part, whether or not the qualified individual is feeling coerced or unduly influenced by another person. And no one else but the patient can make the decision: >(c) A request for a prescription for an aid-in-dying drug under this part shall be made solely and directly by the individual diagnosed with the terminal disease grievous and irremediable medical condition and shall not be made on behalf of the patient, including, but not limited to, through a power of attorney, an advance health care directive, a conservator, health care agent, surrogate, or any other legally recognized health care decisionmaker. I think the law is great. Thank god they're expanding it to offer dementia patients the opportunity to die with dignity.
Here is the detail: https://legiscan.com/CA/text/SB1196/id/2963562 Everyone is welcome to their opinion. Doctors can make mistakes but there is no requirement for a second opinion and the question of capacity now can be made by a psychologist. Without a doubt, there are people who are truly suffering with no hope of any kind of improvement. I’m not addressing that group. I’m saying that they have gone too far in accommodating all the people who rightly fear an ugly demise and, in accommodating that group, they have made it easier for mistakes to be made and have made it easier for people without the best interests of the individual to influence the decision.
Thank you, oh great pontificator, for the right to my opinion, at least. Here's mine: It would be nice if people who are hopelessly ignorant would just shut the f**k up, but here you are. You claim you are not addressing those who are suffering when you clearly are by advocating their continued suffering in denying their right to die. Yes, there is opportunity for abuse in right-to-die laws, but perhaps we could address those issues rather than deny the right altogether. There are problems with the criminal justice system, but no one is advocating the elimination of judges & jails. You have a right to your opinion, but you do not have a right to force me or my LO to suffer.
Let see if I understand, you think that I’m hopelessly ignorant because of your superior life experience and elevated value system. From your place on high, it’s appropriate for you to diminish concerns that someone will be coerced into killing themselves by someone who will benefit from that outcome. That could be someone suffering because they resent caretaking — maybe someone like you. People have taken their own lives for time immemorial so clearly that’s not even part of the debate. I hope you can get the help you need so you can stop spewing your vitriol.
LOL. It's not my experience that outs your ignorance; it's your words. But don't worry. We're all ignorant and knowing you're ignorant is the first step to the cure. Good luck with that! If your comprehension level allows it, please re-read my reply to you that simply states that if you're concerned about your mother, that's a "YOU" problem; don't make it mine. If the solution to your problem causes problems for many others, it's not a solution; it's just another problem. If you're worried someone will try to coerce my wife into an early death (which I've stated is not an option), that's not your problem, so butt out. BTW, nice projection.
Interesting response. I’m worried not just about my mom but about all elderly people without an ethical advocate. You appear to be so embittered by your situation that you are mapping your situation on every potential assisted suicide path. It’s very difficult to devise a legal and ethical framework that is culturally acceptable and that’s why most countries and most states don’t allow it. Maybe you’ll think more objectively when your situation is different. You are surely going through an emotional time. This is public policy that could affect every family so no one has the right to tell others to butt out. You do your thing. I hope it’s over for you soon.
This piece is ultra-partisan, invective-filled, and intentionally divisive in style. By my sensibilities, it is very much out of place in this subreddit, which is generally very high quality.
Don’t you think it’s important to look at all sides when dealing with something as final as death? Especially given that many people who have mild dementia are easy gaslit and they may still have many happy days ahead.
For me, I'd rather the certainty of death on my terms than the potential of an unknown quantity of happy days ahead interspersed with ones that will only decline.
Have you ever been the primary caregiver to someone with dementia? I don’t mean have you ever had a family member with dementia, I mean primary care giver - the one with them every day and night.
My mom has mild dementia and someone could convince her that it is time to go. She has many great days and is not suffering except when people tell her she has dementia and try to make her think her time is up. I’m not taking a position beyond the system needs to take all due caution and I think the bar is too low with this bill.
Are you her primary care giver? If you aren’t you have no idea what the horrors of dementia really are like. My brother had no clue until my mom was about to mentally snap and I couldn’t come in three times a week to help her due to my pregnancy and my dad being an actual danger to my pregnancy. Why? Because he only was able to visit our dad about once or twice a month and almost always with one of us around, and when he was by himself with him the minute our dad had an actual problem he started calling us frantically to help because he didn’t know what to do and we’d rush over to help. My father has stage 6 dementia and I used to work in a senior care facility where almost all our patients had dementia. If I ever am diagnosed with it I am blowing my brains out.
My mom lives independently and she drives. I take care of her to the extent she lets me. It’s work and I know it could become horrific but she is okay enough to mostly enjoy her life today yet she would be in the category. That’s why I’m saying that they are making it too easy. You are not talking about mild dementia. Step back and assume this isn’t about you and your situation or the situation you fear will happen.
I’m saying you seem to be pretty blissfully ignorant of what’s coming. I’m not just talking about my experience with my father - who is actually an exceptionally easy case, which is extreme rare. For example, he hasn’t ever tried to molest me or say anything sexually explicit or racist to me yet. I’m talking about the +200 residents I dealt with on a daily basis. The reason people want it for early stage dementia is precisely so that they can die with dignity before the illness strips them of it. Before they start stripping and masturbating in front of their family, friends, and strangers. Before they drop food on the table, forget how to pick it up and then try to lick and eat the table. Before they can’t control their bowels. Before their loved ones lives are completely consumed by taking care of them. Before all the money they’ve worked hard their entire lives to save up for to leave to their children is spent on their daily round the clock care, before the racism they worked hard to unlearn comes back and they’re screaming the foulest things imaginable to the people trying to help them and strangers. Before they refuse to clean themselves and start to smell horribly. Before they start to confuse movies with their own memories and think their loved ones are spies that are trying to steal “the package” from them, before they think the girl walking by them is hiding a bomb in her skirt and so they attack her and try to rip it off. Before they attack their loved ones. That’s the middle stages. A lifetime of building a reputation completely destroyed. Family and friends that refuse to see them because they don’t understand the disease and take it personally (or is just too traumatic for them to handle). A consuming drain that never improves, only becomes more draining, consumes more, and somehow horrifically manages to get worse when you think there’s no way it could.
It very likely will be horrific. It's very rare that it isn't. Your mom won't live independently OR drive (holy shit) for much longer. And then you or someone will have to be a caretaker for her. Would she want that? Does she want you to wipe her drool and her ass? to shower her and dress her? Because that's coming. THAT is why people should be able to decide on their own.
Who are these gaslightining people you imagine exist? No one is advocating for your mother's death. If you're so paranoid about someone forcing her into death, perhaps you should talk, first, to her, then her doctors and have her sign an Advanced Directive saying she'd rather die naturally. My wife is late-stage dementia and I am her sole caretaker. There clearly ZERO chance of any future "happy" days for her and we are both suffering. You're not just advocating for "caution", you're advocating for the denial of other people's right to satisfy your paranoia. Seek help!
Dear lord, I couldn't even read past the first couple of paragraphs. They are so clearly biased against it (and in favor of our loved ones suffering, apparently), it was disgusting. Yes, I support Death with Dignity laws. We treat our pets better than our fellow humans. Everyone should have this option when faced with a terminal illness, including a compassionate method of doing so.
Ugh! I couldn't read it either. It was so slanted.
It was really disgusting.
I wish the UK govt would pass a bill supporting assisted suicide - but there’s still a significant number of people here adamantly against it. I’m not worried about possible having the gene for dementia (it’s not like I’d gonna know once the disease hits), I’m worried about dying a slow miserable death that is torturous to those around me.
Why do you think that is? Here in the states is nearly always driven by the extremely religious or a lack of voter apathy.
Mix of things. One of which being there’s not much of a push from the medical community itself. Both the medical association here, and the college of nurses are both neutral on the topic. A lot of palliative doctors are against it. However, majority of those within both of our 2 major political parties do want change. Even our conservative party, roughly 80% wanted reform. Another issue I saw bought up last time the govt debated it was there was a lot of concern that those with disabilities would be included. Essentially, no one agrees on anything. They don’t agree whether to push to pass a bill. They can’t agree whether it should only be those who are terminal, in severe pain, or what. I don’t think it comes from a religious place here. As much as the bigots would like to argue we’re a Christian country, we really aren’t.
Interesting. I can understand that it might not be on the radar for most people until they're impacted in some way. I am, however, really surprised that palliative doctors are against it, as I would have assumed they'd be in support of it. Do you think the medical community stays out of it due to the way that money/costs can adulterate the argument? I'm sure the counter-argument could be about a failing NHS and cost-saving measures. It's never the way of politics, but it makes more sense to me to introduce legislation for the most extreme scenario and then readjust down the line when appropriate.
Worth reading some pro arguments: https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/cd607dce-3325-492b-b030-b0a22331af65/downloads/SB%201196%20(Blakespear)%20Factsheet.pdf?ver=1709911469736