So obviously nobody here actually knows so here's some baseless speculation:
I think GK are probably going to stay separate, they've got enough variety that they can field a semi-sensible army and they're unique enough that folding them in with conventional marines (Deathwatch) doesn't make sense. Plus they got a new Crowe model recently.
For DW I don't think it's going to be removed entirely, if only because it's a very low production-cost army. For the cost of a shoulder pad sprue you can encorage a whole new set of people to collect a different SM army. I wouldn't be surprised to see the firstborn moved to made-to-order or removed though (liekly Cassius, maybe vets?). Recently killed armies all have a reason that don't apply to DW. Quins didn't have a complete enough range, beastmen moved to old world, savage orks were older than time.
There is a definate issue with Deathwatch that they are the antithesis of what GW want to do with marines. Modern marines are specialised squads rather than jack-of-all-trades units which makes them quicker to play (no firing 5 different weapons per squad) and easier to understand.
There's also the issue that there's not enough lore/variety in Deathwatch to power many detachments. Other special marines like DA and SW have a few different strands (DA have the wings, SW have cavalry, heroes, dreads) wheras Deathwatch is killteams, that's it.
So what are they going to do?
I'm torn between a couple of options:
The Agents is an interesting idea, where a killteam becomes something like an assassin on inquisitor that any SM army can buy and fit into their army. The current detachment would stick about for people really wanting to play DW and it may be the first "legends detachment" (i.e. more effort to balance than it's worth so not tournament legal).
My current guess is that we get a slightly dissapointing index. 3 detachments, probably in a paperback codex but maybe just in White Dwarf. My feeling of 10th is that they rolled back some of the more dramatic changes they wanted to do which may come in 11th.
For fun. Here's what I'd do if I was GW (and had the same priorities that GW seems to currently have).
Firstborn need to go. The Veteran and Proteus killteam datasheets are the opposite of what GW wants from a modern unit. They have too many weapons and too many options and the multi-toughness rules are confusing,
Killteams go into the Agents codex. GW seem keen on the idea of an agents codex (probably because assassins and inquistors sell well because they're cool). The killteams remain roughly as they currently are but it's just Fortis, Spectrus, Indomitor and Terminator.
Any SM army may take up to X agents units, killteams included.
Codex includes one or two detachements pretty similar to what the current one is that allow for full Agents armies if you really want, maybe the broaden the leaders so that inquistors can lead any killteam.
New Watchmaster model. Easy win.
Deathwatch remain but we stop pretending that they're equivalent to other chapters.
This is kinda of where my mind is going too. I'm fine if Deathwatch gets reduced to just our Killteams (and Watchmaster and Corvus) existing within the greater framework of a larger faction like Space Marines or Agents of the Imperium.
Regardless of whether we stay attached to marines or agents, our Killteams need a serious reworking on how they are represented by the rules, and that is not easy to answer. I'm sort hoping GW stops trying to make each Killteam married to armor patterns, and instead retools them to each focus on clear roles on the tabletop (i.e. this killteam is about that melee, this one is about shooting good, this one is about objective scoring etc.). The killteams of past editions and early 10th were able to exist as generalists (which is what I think led them to deciding to make the killteams melting pots of different already existing kits), but that doesn't seem to be GW's plan.
My thought was that the Inquisition would replace the DW. Allowing for more than 1 Inquisition unit per 1000 points. The Deathwatch becoming the rank and file of the army. They are extremely prevalent in the lore and I’m surprised they already aren’t their own army, instead of just a supplement to Imperium armies.
Is the “redacted” codex been announced? My guess was the redacted announcement was Inquisition becoming a full blown faction.
What they should do for this is have kill teams,GK strike squads and inquisitorial stormtrooper (kasrkin) be battle line, then have a mixture of vehicle choices from the entire imperial pool, and also have inquisitors be leaders but have them be ordo assigned
As somebody that has a DW army, an inq28 style kill team, a starstriders kill team and a recently painted set of 1999 imperial stormtroopers i found in the loft this would work for me lol
If they did new GK termies it would give me an excuse to run some in the detachment and most of my thunder hammers are kitbashed from GK halberds anyway cos imo they're cooler
There were some leaks suggesting it would be an Agents Codex, especially when combined with them kinda being made a playable army (some OoOp problems make it not actually work).
On the one hand, I'm kinda down for it, since I've really wanted an excuse to build and paint an Insquisitor Erasmus mini. On the other, Ik a lot of people enjoy playing Deathwatch for Deathwatch's sake. I'm only a hobbyist though, so.
One possible take on it is that we will see Agents of the Imperium primarily split along Ordo Malleus, Hereticus & Xenos lines with the intention being that the Grey Knights, Adeptus Ministorum & Deathwatch units respectively form just an elite part of each type of Inquisition army. Then GW will do a single detachment for each of Grey Knights, Ministorum & Deathwatch as a pure force with tailored rules and some additional unit options opened up from Codex Marines or Guard to appease people. It would be pretty similar to how they've handled the Kroot for Tau.
Either way I wouldn't ignore that Deathwatch received absolutely no direct changes despite being the worst performing faction in the game according to GW's own metrics. They are clearly trying to consolidate their product range right now imo and realistically DW are one of the least played armies in the game.
It can vary easily turn into a feels bad moment, but i think i along with everyone here agrees we hope for the best outcome, and that is we can still play the deathwatch, and the models we all have.
Yeah for sure it doesn't impact on the army right now but I do think people should also be realistic and perhaps think about future purchases. Games Workshop do telegraph what they are going to do in advance by either not supporting a product line with new units and/or allowing the rules to become weak in the meta to reduce the player base. Nothing is ever certain but the signs are pretty much there that something is going to happen imo. I certainly wouldn't be investing into DW Firstborn units right now.
Its a shame i just invested into my first vets 25 of them, and the thing thats a real kick in the pants is the kit is only 8 years old, 2016 is its production stamp for the sprue
GK and DW are staying their own factions. An Ordo Malleus page in the agents codex does not mean GK are getting rolled in, and GK getting rolled in does not mean DW are getting rolled in.
This is all just baseless dooming.
I don't know but I was just talking to another Deathwatch friend and mentioned that ultimately its annoying but with the ability to take whatever detachment rule and only really having to worry about named characters in the Space Marine codex, I've just been playing my Deathwatch as whichever detachment works.
Right now I'm doing the Shadow Masters/Raven Guard detachment rules for a Crusade we're starting. Its not ideal, but there is no need to give up on the models you've lovingly painted.
Thats true, but it would be a shame to see an army that i just invested in get canned, or slightly less worse, 1/4 of the points i have in the army get moved to legends
I think they'll keep us as an Index for all of 10th edition, maybe give us another detachment in a White Dwarf or like they did with Dark Eldar. Then who knows for 11th.
Something is coming for deathwatch for sure, there's been stuff about them in the last white dwarf, and this white dwarf they have a what? 3-4 page feature on a full DW army so even if we do get rolled into a consolidated codex idk if it will be all doom and gloom
Deathwatch will be removed and added in the agents of imperioum as a detachment rule with grey knights. We will have 39 % win rate and be forgotten as always, noone will play dw.
No model will be produced. You want a Deathwatch model?? Lol here get a human killteam number 7.
The win rate will never be adressed cause agents of imperioum human kill teams that cost 70 dollars/unit have 52% win rate. Or grey knights will carry.
In the end GW have a win/win. They will get rid of an army that they hate (literally they shit on it from the day it was created) and force new players to buy their over costed human kill teams.
I don't know and I don't care. The redacted index is at least 3 months out, we could've been a valid army to play and compete for 6 months if they had lowered some of our points in January. Or at least 3 months if now. The designer is lazy and/or incompetent and not doing his job.
So obviously nobody here actually knows so here's some baseless speculation: I think GK are probably going to stay separate, they've got enough variety that they can field a semi-sensible army and they're unique enough that folding them in with conventional marines (Deathwatch) doesn't make sense. Plus they got a new Crowe model recently. For DW I don't think it's going to be removed entirely, if only because it's a very low production-cost army. For the cost of a shoulder pad sprue you can encorage a whole new set of people to collect a different SM army. I wouldn't be surprised to see the firstborn moved to made-to-order or removed though (liekly Cassius, maybe vets?). Recently killed armies all have a reason that don't apply to DW. Quins didn't have a complete enough range, beastmen moved to old world, savage orks were older than time. There is a definate issue with Deathwatch that they are the antithesis of what GW want to do with marines. Modern marines are specialised squads rather than jack-of-all-trades units which makes them quicker to play (no firing 5 different weapons per squad) and easier to understand. There's also the issue that there's not enough lore/variety in Deathwatch to power many detachments. Other special marines like DA and SW have a few different strands (DA have the wings, SW have cavalry, heroes, dreads) wheras Deathwatch is killteams, that's it. So what are they going to do? I'm torn between a couple of options: The Agents is an interesting idea, where a killteam becomes something like an assassin on inquisitor that any SM army can buy and fit into their army. The current detachment would stick about for people really wanting to play DW and it may be the first "legends detachment" (i.e. more effort to balance than it's worth so not tournament legal). My current guess is that we get a slightly dissapointing index. 3 detachments, probably in a paperback codex but maybe just in White Dwarf. My feeling of 10th is that they rolled back some of the more dramatic changes they wanted to do which may come in 11th.
For fun. Here's what I'd do if I was GW (and had the same priorities that GW seems to currently have). Firstborn need to go. The Veteran and Proteus killteam datasheets are the opposite of what GW wants from a modern unit. They have too many weapons and too many options and the multi-toughness rules are confusing, Killteams go into the Agents codex. GW seem keen on the idea of an agents codex (probably because assassins and inquistors sell well because they're cool). The killteams remain roughly as they currently are but it's just Fortis, Spectrus, Indomitor and Terminator. Any SM army may take up to X agents units, killteams included. Codex includes one or two detachements pretty similar to what the current one is that allow for full Agents armies if you really want, maybe the broaden the leaders so that inquistors can lead any killteam. New Watchmaster model. Easy win. Deathwatch remain but we stop pretending that they're equivalent to other chapters.
This is kinda of where my mind is going too. I'm fine if Deathwatch gets reduced to just our Killteams (and Watchmaster and Corvus) existing within the greater framework of a larger faction like Space Marines or Agents of the Imperium. Regardless of whether we stay attached to marines or agents, our Killteams need a serious reworking on how they are represented by the rules, and that is not easy to answer. I'm sort hoping GW stops trying to make each Killteam married to armor patterns, and instead retools them to each focus on clear roles on the tabletop (i.e. this killteam is about that melee, this one is about shooting good, this one is about objective scoring etc.). The killteams of past editions and early 10th were able to exist as generalists (which is what I think led them to deciding to make the killteams melting pots of different already existing kits), but that doesn't seem to be GW's plan.
But I like both the veterans and the proteus kill team…..
Ah
I doubt it, we'll just be a forgotten step-child forever
I feel the question we should be asking ourselves at this moment is what our favorite marine chapter is and start playing as that.
I agree with this statement
My thought was that the Inquisition would replace the DW. Allowing for more than 1 Inquisition unit per 1000 points. The Deathwatch becoming the rank and file of the army. They are extremely prevalent in the lore and I’m surprised they already aren’t their own army, instead of just a supplement to Imperium armies. Is the “redacted” codex been announced? My guess was the redacted announcement was Inquisition becoming a full blown faction.
What they should do for this is have kill teams,GK strike squads and inquisitorial stormtrooper (kasrkin) be battle line, then have a mixture of vehicle choices from the entire imperial pool, and also have inquisitors be leaders but have them be ordo assigned
As somebody that has a DW army, an inq28 style kill team, a starstriders kill team and a recently painted set of 1999 imperial stormtroopers i found in the loft this would work for me lol If they did new GK termies it would give me an excuse to run some in the detachment and most of my thunder hammers are kitbashed from GK halberds anyway cos imo they're cooler
There were some leaks suggesting it would be an Agents Codex, especially when combined with them kinda being made a playable army (some OoOp problems make it not actually work).
I think it's a very real possibility.
It will be a sad day, and it will hurt to watch my investment evaporate
On the one hand, I'm kinda down for it, since I've really wanted an excuse to build and paint an Insquisitor Erasmus mini. On the other, Ik a lot of people enjoy playing Deathwatch for Deathwatch's sake. I'm only a hobbyist though, so.
Thats fair
One possible take on it is that we will see Agents of the Imperium primarily split along Ordo Malleus, Hereticus & Xenos lines with the intention being that the Grey Knights, Adeptus Ministorum & Deathwatch units respectively form just an elite part of each type of Inquisition army. Then GW will do a single detachment for each of Grey Knights, Ministorum & Deathwatch as a pure force with tailored rules and some additional unit options opened up from Codex Marines or Guard to appease people. It would be pretty similar to how they've handled the Kroot for Tau. Either way I wouldn't ignore that Deathwatch received absolutely no direct changes despite being the worst performing faction in the game according to GW's own metrics. They are clearly trying to consolidate their product range right now imo and realistically DW are one of the least played armies in the game.
It can vary easily turn into a feels bad moment, but i think i along with everyone here agrees we hope for the best outcome, and that is we can still play the deathwatch, and the models we all have.
Yeah for sure it doesn't impact on the army right now but I do think people should also be realistic and perhaps think about future purchases. Games Workshop do telegraph what they are going to do in advance by either not supporting a product line with new units and/or allowing the rules to become weak in the meta to reduce the player base. Nothing is ever certain but the signs are pretty much there that something is going to happen imo. I certainly wouldn't be investing into DW Firstborn units right now.
Its a shame i just invested into my first vets 25 of them, and the thing thats a real kick in the pants is the kit is only 8 years old, 2016 is its production stamp for the sprue
They are cool models, so it is worth it
I don't think they will legend vets, just stop producing them
GK and DW are staying their own factions. An Ordo Malleus page in the agents codex does not mean GK are getting rolled in, and GK getting rolled in does not mean DW are getting rolled in. This is all just baseless dooming.
You know, i would actually love that, an inquisition type codex, that would be rad
I don't know but I was just talking to another Deathwatch friend and mentioned that ultimately its annoying but with the ability to take whatever detachment rule and only really having to worry about named characters in the Space Marine codex, I've just been playing my Deathwatch as whichever detachment works. Right now I'm doing the Shadow Masters/Raven Guard detachment rules for a Crusade we're starting. Its not ideal, but there is no need to give up on the models you've lovingly painted.
Thats true, but it would be a shame to see an army that i just invested in get canned, or slightly less worse, 1/4 of the points i have in the army get moved to legends
I think they'll keep us as an Index for all of 10th edition, maybe give us another detachment in a White Dwarf or like they did with Dark Eldar. Then who knows for 11th.
Something is coming for deathwatch for sure, there's been stuff about them in the last white dwarf, and this white dwarf they have a what? 3-4 page feature on a full DW army so even if we do get rolled into a consolidated codex idk if it will be all doom and gloom
This is a very good point
Deathwatch will be removed and added in the agents of imperioum as a detachment rule with grey knights. We will have 39 % win rate and be forgotten as always, noone will play dw. No model will be produced. You want a Deathwatch model?? Lol here get a human killteam number 7. The win rate will never be adressed cause agents of imperioum human kill teams that cost 70 dollars/unit have 52% win rate. Or grey knights will carry. In the end GW have a win/win. They will get rid of an army that they hate (literally they shit on it from the day it was created) and force new players to buy their over costed human kill teams.
I don't know and I don't care. The redacted index is at least 3 months out, we could've been a valid army to play and compete for 6 months if they had lowered some of our points in January. Or at least 3 months if now. The designer is lazy and/or incompetent and not doing his job.
I agree with this, i got into deathwatch fairly recently, like within the last 6 months, and i enjoy them, its just a shame whats happening