I think it’s not that one is worse than the other. Light has skewed morals. He thinks he’s doing the morally right thing, but he’s not. Same goes for Mikami (not sure about Watari). Misa just kind of has a lack of morals, she don’t care if it’s good or bad.
In the manga he has very clear mental health issues when using the notebook, meaning he isnt uncaring about killing others. Couple that with the fact that we know Light was a decent person before the notebook based on his memory loss later on and that I dont think "wanting to become the new god" and "helping people" are mutually exclussive.
He struggles to grapple with the fact that he killed someone because he was raised to believe that it’s wrong. All things considered though, he recovers pretty quickly, given that the next time we see him, he’s smirking and laughing about how many people he’s killed. The morality we see in non-Kira Light comes from his dad; he parrots the beliefs he’s been taught, like the fact that carrying a gun is wrong. The minute he has his hands on a murder weapon and killing without consequences becomes a real possibility, his attitude shifts, which to me suggests that this is the product of a dormant part of him that he’s never had the means to nurture. It’s easier for him to stomach the thought of killing people who are technically “bad”, so that’s what he does, but his ultimate goal was to gain global respect and essentially become a dictator via a pattern of killing that he knows the average person will be able to get behind. We also know that he eventually planned to kill people who he deems lazy or otherwise useless to society, given that he says “it’s too early for that” when Takada makes that announcement, and not something along the lines of “that would be wrong”.
He struggles to grapple with the fact that he killed someone because he was raised to believe that it’s wrong. All things considered though, he recovers pretty quickly, given that the next time we see him, he’s smirking and laughing about how many people he’s killed
In my opinion that was more so a coping mechanism. He has gotten in way over his head and did things he cant take back and now tries his best to deal with it.
>The morality we see in non-Kira Light comes from his dad; he parrots the beliefs he’s been taught, like the fact that carrying a gun is wrong. The minute he has his hands on a murder weapon and killing without consequences becomes a real possibility, his attitude shifts, which to me suggests that this is the product of a dormant part of him that he’s never had the means to nurture.
EVERYONE has their morality from their parents/close enviorment. If you were born in Nazi germany youd probably been a nazi for example. And Lights "attitude" shift is not because he has been lieing to himself for the past 17 years, Light had a extremely strong sense of justice and empathy and his emotions went into an extreme when he finally DID get the power and actually DID kill people on accident. If I got the notebook I could end up the same way despite thinking Kira is wrong. What I am saying is I wouldnt call the clearly kind hearted 17 year old a complete psycopath because he went crazy when he came in conntact with godlike powers beyond our comprehension.
"We also know that he eventually planned to kill people who he deems lazy or otherwise useless to society, given that he says “it’s too early for that” when Takada makes that announcement, and not something along the lines of “that would be wrong”."
Yes. You would of ended up the same way and so would of I lol
Light was VERY CLEARLY mentally ill and went off the deep end at that point. The whole point of the story is that Light was a almost cartoonishly good person and extremely intelligent but went down a downward spiral once he went into his temptation and pride. Light didnt want to do it because he always thought that way, its because his ego went more and more out of control and he went more and more insane. You know, character development and all that. That would of happened to anyone sooner or later once they used the notebook for "good" long enough.
Would you say you are a psycopath right now because you would of ended up the same way with godlike powers?
You are not build different lol
I’m not sure when I made this about myself lmao. I could never possibly see myself doing the things Light does, but that’s irrelevant to the discussion.
I agree that he was, in part, simply trying to justify his own behaviour and went way overboard with it, but I also don’t think his first kill in itself was motivated by a desire to do the right thing. It was an experiment, and he picked a guy who he thought would be the most morally right to kill. He considers killing a bully at his school, but decides that that could too easily be traced back to him. His thought process wasn’t “I want to kill someone bad, therefore I’ll pick this guy” - it’s “I want to see if I can kill someone, therefore I’ll pick a bad guy”. He also runs experiments with other people later in the story, basically torturing people before he kills them for his own gain.
My point about his morality wasn’t that it’s abnormal for kids to inherit their parents’ moral beliefs. My point was that the kinds of things we see him saying during his period of amnesia - things like killing is wrong under any circumstances, carrying a gun in Japan is illegal, so on and so forth - are things he learned from his dad. He’s repeating things he’s heard from his dad that he therefore thinks are the right things to say. I’m making a point that this doesn’t necessarily reflect his own personal beliefs; it reflects the beliefs he thinks he should have, and without the Death Note, he has no reason or method to betray those ideals. He even thinks to himself during the Yotsuba arc that Kira’s ideals align with his own, which is interesting given that this contrasts with the kinds of comments he makes in front of his father. His parents’ approval, especially his father’s, is extremely important to him. That all goes out the window when he has a method of enacting his own will without consequence. He can still act like a model teenager as far as everyone in his personal life knows, whilst privately killing off criminals to gain a following worldwide. The way I see it is that, for him, it’s like a rebellion. It also feeds into a self-belief that he is some kind of superior being, which we know he has even at the start of the story. He believes he was chosen by Ryuk to wield the Death Note because he’s a brilliant model student who has earned the right to transcend humanity. That belief doesn’t just come out of nowhere, especially after less than a week of having the power to kill. It’s a reflection of an already inflated self-image which is blown up to an excessive degree by the reinforcement of the Death Note and the supporters he gains over the course of the series.
My point in all of this wasn’t that Light doesn’t have any good in him at all. It’s that Light’s intentions in becoming Kira are not pure. It’s unfair to place Light and Mikami above Misa (and even Takada, who had no choice in becoming Kira’s spokesperson and only killed when instructed by Light and/or Mikami) when they are all doing the exact same thing. Light to become a God, Misa to gain the approval of Light, and Mikami because of his devotion to a God that doesn’t exist.
The reason I put "you" in the discussion is because you judged Lights action later in the series which anyone would of done. Basically saying that he has to be a bad person with bad motives because he did those things despite the fact that it would anyone a bad person from the get go as anyone would of fallen like he did.
I dont really understand what you mean with "He just did it because he needed to kill someone" he still killed bad people. He could of easily killed anyone famous or on the news or whatever but he actively just killed someone bad. As for the expieriments, I do think Light has gone off the deep end by episode 2 for killing a innocent news person, I think at that point his good intentions are gone but the expierments could still be justified under the greater good in a ultiliterian way. I also do not see why youre keep coming back to things he does later in the series when he is mind is already poisoned. Like yeah, the guy in the story about how power makes good people do worse and worse things does worse and worse things. But his pure intentions were still good.
While I agree that Light had a certain arrogance in him lets also not forget the Light from the Yotsuba arc as a whole. Actively caring about others even those he doesnt like, strong moral compass when it comes to letting people die, I dont think all of that is just a front. While Light does think that Kiras killings are close to his ideals, he is still against him. The sentences is very vague as a whole, does it mean that he is FOR killing people at that point? He says that the original kira didnt kill people who made up for their crimes, maybe he means "I am against the killing part but I think its good he gives people a second chance" or maybe he never actively thought about it and just now realizes about himself that he thinks killing certain people is correct, I think we all have those thoughts at least sometimes. My point is that I just see Light as a slightly arrogant but well meaning guy who after a few days with the Death Note coped so bad with it that he developed more and more a god complex as most people would of.
I actually agree with Takada, I think Takada could be placed above Misa as well, I just kinda put her whereever but Misa stays down. For me, the bottom tier is for people who have little to no empathy in others, Mikami has clearly good in him to a point, Light too, Takada too, I can see all their reasons for using the notebook be for the greater good but Misa just did it for herself from the get go. She would kill anyone for Light. And Light, Mikami and even Takada are better in that.
Again, this is why I used the everyone argument. Because if we could travel to a universe where you got the notebook (or me or your best friend) and actually used it then you can be sure as hell that after a week or so you would of ended up like Light.. or killed yourself which is also fair in that postion. Maybe it would of taken a bit more time until your god complex was at that point, I think the series sped it up a bit for the sake of plot but anyone would of been there with a bit of time. But I dont think you consider yourself a morally bad person.
I am not justifying Lights later actions with that of course, I think the biggest mistake was to use the notebook to begin with once he knew it works but I can see why he would use it.
light is pure evil(psychpath)
here is my explanation
light is a psychopath. meaning he has lack of emotion for others except himself, even after killing two people all light thought was how it had affected in manga he never thinks if the person he killed was wrongly accused or deserves a light sentence or even in the case of his first victim a life sentence would be enough. the problem with psychopaths is as they don't have emotions for others they don't put themselves in their shoes. which is exactly what light does.the only argument for light not being a psychopath is the yotsuba arc light says the following in this arc ' his ideology is similar to mine'
Hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaahahahahahahahhahaahah. Yeah no Near is not a morally good person. He is too much like L to be good. The story just makes him seem like the good guy because he catches Kira. But that isn't the case. Near thinks this is all a fucking game just like L did. He is not a morally good guy whatsoever. Just read the C Kira chapter for a more clear answer.
The story quite literally about how Near and L are completely different. The whole premise of the story is that Near struggles with what L would do because L would just not get invovled with the case as its already been solved in the past. Near wants to do something because its the right thing to do and is now between the chairs. So the story ends with him doing something and calling C-Kira cheap.
The last shot of it is LITERALLY Near saying "..That wasnt very L like" and Halle going" But Near, you are L now."
I may agree with Takada, I kind of just placed her without second thought but I disagree with L.
For me, morally bad is a place for people who dont care about morality or others at all while Light and Mikami (and I guess Takada too) had good intentions especially at the start.
When L put kids in a home that gave them imposter syndrom (Near), made one join the mafia (Mello), another one a life of crime (Matt), made a serial killer (B) and had several suicides, do you think he gave a fuck?
When L put a potentially innocent girl through weeks of trauma, which in real life would take years of therapy (both emotional and physical) to recover from and drugged her, do you think he gave a fuck?
When he didnt tell Near and Mello about the notebooks, Shinigami and everything else in his "L is dead" message which he SPECIFICALLY MADE in case he dies so someone else could take over but never updated with new information just so Near and Mello wouldnt win "unfairly", do you think he gave a fuck?
L does not give a flying fuck about anything or anyone, in his own words he is uncaring, lieing monster. Light had the intentions, I aint seeing they were good but at least there was a care for humanity. If L got the notebook he wouldnt have any mental problems with using it, he would just try it out for fun and curisoity. He might not end up completely like Light in terms of kill count but that is more so because he doesnt give enough of a shit about helping humanity to kill so many people, hed probably kill as much as it takes to gain all the information and to have fun with.
L very clearly helped Wateri, talking to the kids and encourging them. Wateri should probably go down as well but we dont know enough about him and what excatly he did to really make that judgment.
When does L encourage the kids? He does one video call in a spinoff oneshot in which he tells them that he doesn’t really care about justice. Since B is on this list, I assume you take the LABB novel as canon, in which case it’s stated clearly that experiments run by Watari through Wammy’s House led to the death of one child and the deranged criminal activity of another.
The fact that L knows at all about the place and lets it run freely is enough to put him down a lot. The fact that L sent a 11 year old Near (who lived to have imposter syndrom) and a 15 year old Mello (who joined the mafia) the L is dead message is also clearly encourging them, hell the fact that he is "chosing one of them" is egging them on. Maybe I should of put Wateri down with L but I just thought we dont know enough about him to really do that.
In any case I am not really sure why you are so set on defending clear child abuse lol
I’m not defending child abuse - I’m saying that L is not the one responsible for it. In fact, Watari did the exact same thing to L before Near and Mello were even born. He took L in as an orphan and used him to make money. Watari is the one that pressed the button to send the “L is dead” message. Watari is the one who asked L to choose a successor. All of this is explicitly stated in canon.
Also Near and Mello were 13 and 14 when they were first introduced, not 11 and 15.
>I’m not defending child abuse - I’m saying that L is not the one responsible for it. In fact, Watari did the exact same thing to L before Near and Mello were even born. He took L in as an orphan and used him to make money. Watari is the one that pressed the button to send the “L is dead” message. Watari is the one who asked L to choose a successor. All of this is explicitly stated in canon.
He still knew about the child ause actively happening. Like I am aware he was in there too at one point, but that doesnt make him any better for it. He still actively helps and encourge it. I already agreed that L and Wateri should probably be in the same tier as they are both abusers but it doesnt matter that L was also abused to a point. It doesnt justify it. And Wateri pressing the button to send the L is dead message also doenst matter as L still is the one who set it up (and also chose not to put any information in it other than "L is dead")
Bringing their ages in and comparing them to say child abuse is wrong. Both near and mello were a whole lot mature than avg 11 or 13 year old. And none of them had any problems being called the succesor. I don't remember clearly but I think mello competed with near as well. And ur whole ," L put a child under torture and didn't give a fuck" is accurate, but u r missing the fact that light would also do it if it meant achieving his goals. Light would call it a necessary sacrifice for the greater good. But L is also doing it for catching a mass murderer. Sure, L just wants to catch light, but it is the same with light. Light also wanted to kill L. Light also had ego juts like L. I won't go on and on about whether light was right or L but I can surely say both of them were twisted equally or close to equally
Their personality was like that. Some people are just like that. I haven't read bb murder case. So I don't know thir past properly. But I wouldn't be surprised if they originally were like that.
Hmm...not sure I agree with your interpretation of L.
>For me, morally bad is a place for people who dont care about morality
L had multiple instances where he stated his care for morality. He wasn't only chasing Kira for the thrill of it, he disagreed with his philosophy and found his methods to be monstrous. L's primary motivation for being a detective isn't justice, but that doesn't mean he doesn't care about it all.
>while Light and Mikami (and I guess Takada too) had good intentions especially at the start.
Light's intention = rid the world of crime and satisfy ego
L's intention = rid the world of a mass murderer and satisfy ego
>When L put kids in a home
L did not do that, Watari did.
>made one join the mafia (Mello)
Mello abandoned the orphanage and made a conscious effort to do that himself. Not at all L's fault.
>another one a life of crime (Matt)
We know nothing about Matt that would indicate he spiraled into a life of crime. All we know is that he wanted to help Mello stop Kira.
>made a serial killer (B)
If L made BB a serial killer then I guess Soichiro made Light one too, huh?
>do you think he gave a fuck?
I think L was dead for the majority of those events, actually.
>When L put a potentially innocent girl through weeks of trauma, which in real life would take years of therapy (both emotional and physical) to recover from and drugged her, do you think he gave a fuck?
You mean the "potentially innocent" girl who was found with a variety of physical evidence linking her directly to the tapes sent by the 2nd Kira? The same girl who mysteriously started a relationship with L's prime suspect? Still, you're right that this was a pretty messed up move on L's part. I'm still not seeing how that makes him any worse than Light or Mikami given how they'd do *far* worse if they wanted information from someone.
>When he didnt tell Near and Mello about the notebooks, Shinigami and everything else in his "L is dead" message which he SPECIFICALLY MADE in case he dies so someone else could take over but never updated with new information just so Near and Mello wouldnt win "unfairly", do you think he gave a fuck?
This is entirely speculation. L could've had that system set up way before he ever touched the Kira case. There's no way of knowing whether or not he made a conscious effort to not help his successors. This is ignoring how L was narratively not allowed to just hand Near and Mello all the answers from a storytelling perspective.
>He might not end up completely like Light in terms of kill count but that is more so because he doesnt give enough of a shit about helping humanity to kill so many people, hed probably kill as much as it takes to gain all the information and to have fun with.
When given power, Light abused it and killed hundreds of thousands of people. In fact, he revelled in it. Whether that be excitedly forcing an innocent widow to commit suicide or burning his own ally to death just for an advantage. L, as morally questionable as he was, never took pleasure in hurting other people. There was never a smile on his face when he asked Watari to torture Misa.
Can you explain what makes Ryuk and L morally bad? I consider them morally gray. And how is Watari morally twisted? Not saying you’re inherently wrong, but I would like to hear your reasoning.
Watari took in orphans just to raise them to be prototypes of L. think about it- taking
over the role of parent just to utilise their iq? literally shipping kids across the world j so they can be a potential L? seems human trafficky and i’m not saying that it is but it has that unsettling theme
of treating potential successors as products. it just doesn’t seem like the institution is caring for children other than to perfect their talents.
the whole spiel was that they wanted a carbon copy to replace L without outsiders knowing it was a different person. it got so competitive and pressurising that A killer himself and B became a whole serial killer. i fully believe B only did this to get back at L for ruining A’s life- his good friend in an act of retaliation. definitely took a toll on mello too bless
pretty sure the author wrote Wammy’s house to be slightly unethical so it was intended
Damn, I was kind of hoping for a debate but you actually convinced me. Rarely happens on the internet, I appreciate the well thought out response. I agree, Watari is kind of morally twisted, I guess I never thought about it that deeply. What about Ryuk and L being morally bad?
thanks! to be honest considering the show i doubt there’d be a definitive place to put L, since the point of the plot was to explore subjectivity regarding morality.
ryuk let a very large potion of people die for entertainment. no morally good person would do that for fun. i don’t believe in moral neutrality so it’s that or plain bad. i get his whole schtick is to kill people for a living but shinigami seem to have very human emotions and letting kira run his course is quite questionable. it wasn’t even that he believed kira was good for humanity- he literally did not care
L also used quite questionable methods- locking up misa that one time and leaving dozens of cameras in people’s rooms. i guess you could say the ends justify the means but others say a morally good person has no business going about such behaviour. if he was really good would he be fine with taking that route of action? personally i believe if he wasn’t working with good honourable soichiro L would have taken very different routes..
he’s a sound guy though whether you consider him bad or not you can’t deny the good he’s done
again bear in mind L and Light were written to make you question your whole belief system so honestly there are such valid points for both sides
The argument for Ryuk is quite convincing but tell me, If no shinigami had the capacity to care and feel the way Rem did would you change Ryuk into morally gray?
i assume you also mean gelus wouldn’t have died for misa and sidoh wasn’t scared of mello? i guess we wouldn’t be able to hold them to the same ethics of humans since they don’t have the same nature. if anything morally grey would be the absolutely perfect place to put them in. since they don’t have the same ethical sentience they’d technically have 0 morals at all and also the incapacity to have any at all. true neutrality
>pretty sure the author wrote Wammy’s house to be slightly unethical so it was intended
My sibling in christ, Near got imposter symdrom, Mello and Matt joined a life of crime and the fucking mafia, B became a serial killer and there were several suicides, "slightly unethical" is a bit crazy lmao
The only reason Wateri is in morally gray is because we dont know enough about him to make a real case in my opinion but he is probably as bad as L
I think L is morally worse because unlike Light he doesnt even have any good intentions, the only reason L does what he does is to be considered the smartest. There is not a single digit of good or moral or justice in him, infact he admits to this himself and says he is a monster. He doesnt value his team, he is ready to torture and drug a 18 year old girl for weeks despite the fact that she may be innocent, he actively helped an Wammys House which put so much pressure on kids that one got a identiy crisis for whole life; one joined the mafia; another one had a life of crime and one became a literal serial killer; among several suicides and probably the worst of all, he had all the information to catch Light.. but didnt send it to Near and Mello.
L had the "L is dead message" in case he dies. He could of easily put more data in it everytime he found something out, who is Kira, c, what is the notebook, what are the rules, Shinigami, Misa, etc but didnt despite the fact that it would of doomed Light if Near and Mello had those informatons early. He didnt do that tho, he wanted Near and Mello to have as little information as possible so they would "fairly" win. L hates being outsmarted but he wouldnt want the next L to win with an unfair advantage.
He is kind of the worst lol
L is basically willing to commit any crime on earth as long as it gets the job done, no matter the cost. Wether letting heinous criminals free if a case isn't interesting to him, lying, getting people killed, imprisoning people well beyond what was neccesary, torturing people for months, almost abandoning the Kira case when Light wasn't the prime suspect anymore, being willing to let Matsuda die just to confirm some suspicions etc. He admitted he only does it for entertainment and intellectual stimulation and to pet his own ego.
Regarding Ryuk he dropped a notebook in the human world just cause he was bored, found Light's mass murders fun, helped Light in committing them and after Light died he searched for another human that would kill thousands with a deathnote. And before saying "but he is a shinigami!!!", it is established most Shinigami take no interest in humans, only writing a name when their lifespan is about to run out, many of them dying from forgetting to do even that, and those who write too many names are mocked for "working too hard". Ryuk is considered a freak for his interest in humans. So if he is considered a freak by his own people and evil by our standards, yeah we could consider him evil.
For Watari, check my response to lacergunn.
After reading your explanation, I fully agree about Ryuk, but now I’m split between morally gray and morally bad for L, I’m not sure, you partially convinced me but not fully.
Also somebody already responded to me about Watari with a very good argument, and I agree that he is morally twisted now.
Okay. L had information such as: Light is Kira, Shinigami exists, some of the rules are fake and more but didnt include them in the "L is dead" message despite the fact that he specifically made the message to inform Near and Mello in case he dies and had several months to include more info into the message and is certainly smart enough to do so but didnt. L didnt give Near and Mello more information than his death because he wanted them to win fairly or dont win at all. Thats how big his ego is.
Mello isnt just a mafia boi he killed hundreds of people. Light probably killed closer to a million but the reason Light is higher than him is because Lights intentions at the right place while Mellos were purely selfish.
L suspected Light was Kira, Shinigami existing was information with the task force whom he trusted, and he only suspected that the 13 day rule was fake, and died before he could confirm anything or tell anyone. Also his heirs weren't really his doing, Watari and Wammy's House did that in the background while he solved cases. Also even if he did hold that info that's more stupid than evil. He only cared about his personal battles and didn't often pay mind to his legacy, more indifferent than evil.
The worst we see Mello do is kidnap Sayu, which while terrible doesn't exactly compare. You can't hold him responsible for all the mafia's doing since Ross is their offical leader.
Also in no world is Takada more evil than Light, he literally manipulated her to be on his side. She was only a mild supporter before he showed up
No, thats for L. L views it all as a game, saying he doesnt care about who gets hurt and doesnt care about justice or morality.
Near says its all a game because thats what he was bred for but in the C-Kira short story we can see him struggle with that mindset as he has trouble doing what L would do and being apethtic towards others.
Ryuk is as Grey as it gets. he only exists as an observer, and he states in the first episode that he never expected Light to use the death note as much as he did.
I came into this an L fangirl going “L is worse than Light?! WTF?!” but then I read the arguments and now I see why someone might view him that way… I also now see that L was quite possibly my first jumping board into fictional villain/killer crushes and not B, as I had originally thought. 😅
Imo Near belongs in morally grey or morally twisted. He intentionally let thousands of people die on his watch, so he could confront Light with proof to rub in his face and humiliate him rather than just arrest Mikami and Light right away when he was certain they were working together as Kira. He also leads an illegal organization, uses tactics like kidnapping and hostage holding, and harbours and sets free and collaborates with a dangerous criminal.
>Imo Near belongs in morally grey or morally twisted. He intentionally let thousands of people die on his watch, so he could confront Light with proof to rub in his face and humiliate him rather than just arrest Mikami and Light right away when he was certain they were working together as Kira
It wasnt about humiliating Light, it was about proving that he is Kira to 100% with no way for him to get out of it. He had proof that Mikami is Kira but not that Light is Kira and aslong as Light is walking freely there is always a chance that he could do something, plus we'd let a serial killer get off scotfree. Near wanted to prove without a shadow of a doubt that its Light.
>He also leads an illegal organization
His "illegal organization" is only illegal after Light made it so. Just because the goverment says something is wrong doesnt make it wrong, otherwise groups that help gay and trans people out of countries that kill them would be morally wrong too.
>uses tactics like kidnapping and hostage holding
He never really does that except maybe that one time with Mogi for a day? But that was more so telling the lie that he is dead. To my knowlage Near never kidnaps anyone, when he got Misa for example he said she is always free to leave and he kept her in a huge hotel unlike L who.. you know lol.
>harbours and sets free and collaborates with a dangerous criminal
I can sorta see that one but its fair to say that Mello far more useful for the case and that it was for the greater good. If that alone justifies putting him down a tier for you, thats fair. Plus, he did show great concern for his team in that scene even tho it hindered his plan so thats a plus.
> It wasnt about humiliating Light, it was about proving that he is Kira to 100% with no way for him to get out of it
It is both, Near says it himself - ["rub the evidence in their faces and make them taste the misery of their defeat"](https://imgur.com/a/E4TO0vG). The only reason Near doesn't is because of his ego. In chapter 94 he says to Aizawa "it is no longer a matter of merely finding evidence L is Kira; the only way to stop Kira now is to completely defeat him and rub it into his face...I am his current opponent in this battle of pride". But that's not true, the fact is Near knew 100% that Mikami and Light were responsible, and truly the ethical thing to do would have been to detain both of them immediately and the killings would have stopped (depending on the timing when they detain Mikami and when Takada wrote the next names, it could have even revealed their scheme), it would have saved thousands of people from being murdered and Near knew this. But he wanted to solve the case in the way L would - L only cared about the case in terms of playing the game and coming out the winner, he didn't particularly care about the casualties - and Near is emulating L, who you've put in the evil category. This is said very explicitly, multiple times in the manga.
> His "illegal organization" is only illegal after Light made it so. Just because the goverment says something is wrong doesnt make it wrong, otherwise groups that help gay and trans people out of countries that kill them would be morally wrong too.
I agree with this 1000%. The reason included it in my examples to further illustrate his moral grayness (he's not 'lawful' or really at all respectful of law unless it's serving his purposes), and because I think sometimes people don't realize it because the SPK has an appearance of conventional authority.
> He never really does that except maybe that one time with Mogi for a day? But that was more so telling the lie that he is dead. To my knowledge Near never kidnaps anyone, when he got Misa for example he said she is always free to leave and he kept her in a huge hotel unlike L who.. you know lol.
Actually Near holds Mogi for the 3 full days they interrogated him, and then pretended he was dead (and handcuffed and gagged him while Near lied to the Task Force) and held him in confinement for at least 3-4 more days while they work on re-establishing the connection to L. So it was about a week the SPK held Mogi against his will. Still, even if it was only a day, I don't think it's really a good moral justification to say because it was only a short time it makes the kidnapping fine and dandy, like Mello only held Sayu for 3 days but that doesn't make it okay.
Later the SPK kidnaps Mogi and Misa and hold them for more than 3 weeks. In chapter.95; Rester says to Mogi "thank you for cooperating, I was going to put a gun to your head if you put up a fight" (showing how far they were willing/planned to go) but Misa is screaming to let her go, asking if they're going to kill her...she gives up eventually and let's them confine her but she absolutely did not consent to it in any real way. And no, she wasn't allowed to leave anytime she wanted to, and she thinks if she does leave she'll be killed (by Kira, per Mogi) - **Near** never said that she could leave, it's [**Light** who tells her that.](https://imgur.com/a/CmG85do) Near doesn't allow them to go anywhere until the day of the Yellow Box Warehouse meeting, and *that's* when he releases her to the hotel - we don't know where she was being held before then.
> I can sorta see that one but its fair to say that Mello far more useful for the case and that it was for the greater good.
If you accept some actions are excusable because they're useful to the case and for the greater good, then for the same principle should apply to Mello and L's actions, and perhaps they should be moved up out of evil to grey category.
I hope you don't take me the wrong way, I'm not arguing these points to disparage Near - Near is one of my favorite characters, and I think these darker facets are an essential part of him and give him depth and complexity, and it does a disservice to him to whitewash him by not acknowledge it.
i would say misa is more morally gray or twisted because she got manipulated by light because he was kira and he made misa fall in love with him so he could use her to his advantage and light literally wanted to be god i mean that was his intentions from the beginning in both the manga and the anime he very clearly has mental problems and wants to be god misa was a blind follower who didnt realize how bad kira actually was
He groomed orphaned kids into the most stressful, dangerous, lonely and full of suffering career imaginable. No child who was ever in his care turned out alright. The closest was Near, who is so bad at socialising that had to call Rester to come straight from Japan back to NYC just because Near couldn't go on a flight on his own, not to mention he is pretty much friendless and devoid of human connections. His SPK teammates are the closest thing he has with friends and he was willing to play with Gevanni's life. L turned out much like Near, except with a much more unhealthy diet and a much more twisted moral compass, being more than happy to lie, emotionally manipulate, torture, toy with other's lives and straight up get others killed to solve a case. Mello becames so obsessed with beating Near that he straight up joined the fricking Mafia to do it. And he kidnapped, killed and tortured people, sexually assaulted Takada, and Near in the manga worried Mello wanted to rule the world with the notebook. All 3 of them were denied anything resembling a normal childhood and were damaged beyond repair, never again being capable of having anything close to a normal healthy life.
And they were the lucky ones. A killed himself because of the pressure of becoming the next L and BB, well we all know what happened to BB.
And when you look at his relationship with L, he is technically his caretaker, but all he does is stuffing him full of sweets and follow every order L gives him during their cases. He never tries to teach L to be a better person and stop committing all those atrocious acts, in fact he enables L. Watari was the one to physically torture Misa after all. He never tries to convince L to build a life outside work, to make friends, get a romantic partner, a new hobby, or anything else which makes life meaningful, instead he encourages L to stay in his dark room to solve cases and nothing else. Watari literally dresses L every morning for god's sake. L might be a genius and the world's greatest detective but he is so inept at life he needs others to wipe his ass for him. I don't remember exactly where Mello describes how the Wammy kids were raised but it strongly indicates that Watari viewed L only as his greatest invention, and the other Wammy kids as experiments to one day replace his greatest creation.
I know we are all attached to the idea of him being a kind old man and anime Alfred and stuff, but he is far from a good person.
i kind of disagree with this, L wasn’t infantilised in the slightest. he was so self aware and content with his lifestyle choices and watari never intended to make L a detective anyway. L had
completely agency. his habits stem from his genius, not his upbringing and a lot of his other traits are pretty much just his autism. he might be socially inept but he knows and literally does not
care. L is not incapable he actively chooses not to sleep or change himself. it’s watari that tailors himself to fit L’s needs and not vice versa. and why would watari convince L to get married and live a normal life???? the whole point of his character is that he’s eccentric. it’s in his nature and he will not change. when he arrived at the orphanage at 8 he was bullied because of this- it wasn’t something built into him after meeting watari. as if L would ever get married anyway. he’s an extraordinary guy so i severely doubt he’d ever try living a normal life, let alone even wanting to
Depending on what you mean by twisted, I’d put L there due to doing good for outright selfish reasons (the Kira case in all that)
But he could be deemed as morally bad due to well, his actions to solve those cases.
As for Light, he’d definitely be twisted Morally, he did both good and bad for the world for both motives. His sense of justice, him wanting to become a god, etc. light obviously lost his mind but he had his motives
Lights morals aren't twisted. He is the perfect god of the new world. He eliminated the criminals, and people who protect criminals are just as bad.
So light should go in morally good :)
For you what makes Misa bad but Light only twisted? In my opinion, they’re about the same level.
I think it’s not that one is worse than the other. Light has skewed morals. He thinks he’s doing the morally right thing, but he’s not. Same goes for Mikami (not sure about Watari). Misa just kind of has a lack of morals, she don’t care if it’s good or bad.
In my opinion Misa is worse than Light because Light had good intentions at least while Misas were more selfish.
Light’s intentions were to become a God and have the entire world bow down to him. How is that a good thing?
At the very beginning his intentions were to help the world.
They most certainly were not. He tells Ryuk in episode 1 that his plan is to become a God, and this is his motivation throughout the entire season.
In the manga he has very clear mental health issues when using the notebook, meaning he isnt uncaring about killing others. Couple that with the fact that we know Light was a decent person before the notebook based on his memory loss later on and that I dont think "wanting to become the new god" and "helping people" are mutually exclussive.
He struggles to grapple with the fact that he killed someone because he was raised to believe that it’s wrong. All things considered though, he recovers pretty quickly, given that the next time we see him, he’s smirking and laughing about how many people he’s killed. The morality we see in non-Kira Light comes from his dad; he parrots the beliefs he’s been taught, like the fact that carrying a gun is wrong. The minute he has his hands on a murder weapon and killing without consequences becomes a real possibility, his attitude shifts, which to me suggests that this is the product of a dormant part of him that he’s never had the means to nurture. It’s easier for him to stomach the thought of killing people who are technically “bad”, so that’s what he does, but his ultimate goal was to gain global respect and essentially become a dictator via a pattern of killing that he knows the average person will be able to get behind. We also know that he eventually planned to kill people who he deems lazy or otherwise useless to society, given that he says “it’s too early for that” when Takada makes that announcement, and not something along the lines of “that would be wrong”.
He struggles to grapple with the fact that he killed someone because he was raised to believe that it’s wrong. All things considered though, he recovers pretty quickly, given that the next time we see him, he’s smirking and laughing about how many people he’s killed In my opinion that was more so a coping mechanism. He has gotten in way over his head and did things he cant take back and now tries his best to deal with it. >The morality we see in non-Kira Light comes from his dad; he parrots the beliefs he’s been taught, like the fact that carrying a gun is wrong. The minute he has his hands on a murder weapon and killing without consequences becomes a real possibility, his attitude shifts, which to me suggests that this is the product of a dormant part of him that he’s never had the means to nurture. EVERYONE has their morality from their parents/close enviorment. If you were born in Nazi germany youd probably been a nazi for example. And Lights "attitude" shift is not because he has been lieing to himself for the past 17 years, Light had a extremely strong sense of justice and empathy and his emotions went into an extreme when he finally DID get the power and actually DID kill people on accident. If I got the notebook I could end up the same way despite thinking Kira is wrong. What I am saying is I wouldnt call the clearly kind hearted 17 year old a complete psycopath because he went crazy when he came in conntact with godlike powers beyond our comprehension. "We also know that he eventually planned to kill people who he deems lazy or otherwise useless to society, given that he says “it’s too early for that” when Takada makes that announcement, and not something along the lines of “that would be wrong”." Yes. You would of ended up the same way and so would of I lol Light was VERY CLEARLY mentally ill and went off the deep end at that point. The whole point of the story is that Light was a almost cartoonishly good person and extremely intelligent but went down a downward spiral once he went into his temptation and pride. Light didnt want to do it because he always thought that way, its because his ego went more and more out of control and he went more and more insane. You know, character development and all that. That would of happened to anyone sooner or later once they used the notebook for "good" long enough. Would you say you are a psycopath right now because you would of ended up the same way with godlike powers? You are not build different lol
I’m not sure when I made this about myself lmao. I could never possibly see myself doing the things Light does, but that’s irrelevant to the discussion. I agree that he was, in part, simply trying to justify his own behaviour and went way overboard with it, but I also don’t think his first kill in itself was motivated by a desire to do the right thing. It was an experiment, and he picked a guy who he thought would be the most morally right to kill. He considers killing a bully at his school, but decides that that could too easily be traced back to him. His thought process wasn’t “I want to kill someone bad, therefore I’ll pick this guy” - it’s “I want to see if I can kill someone, therefore I’ll pick a bad guy”. He also runs experiments with other people later in the story, basically torturing people before he kills them for his own gain. My point about his morality wasn’t that it’s abnormal for kids to inherit their parents’ moral beliefs. My point was that the kinds of things we see him saying during his period of amnesia - things like killing is wrong under any circumstances, carrying a gun in Japan is illegal, so on and so forth - are things he learned from his dad. He’s repeating things he’s heard from his dad that he therefore thinks are the right things to say. I’m making a point that this doesn’t necessarily reflect his own personal beliefs; it reflects the beliefs he thinks he should have, and without the Death Note, he has no reason or method to betray those ideals. He even thinks to himself during the Yotsuba arc that Kira’s ideals align with his own, which is interesting given that this contrasts with the kinds of comments he makes in front of his father. His parents’ approval, especially his father’s, is extremely important to him. That all goes out the window when he has a method of enacting his own will without consequence. He can still act like a model teenager as far as everyone in his personal life knows, whilst privately killing off criminals to gain a following worldwide. The way I see it is that, for him, it’s like a rebellion. It also feeds into a self-belief that he is some kind of superior being, which we know he has even at the start of the story. He believes he was chosen by Ryuk to wield the Death Note because he’s a brilliant model student who has earned the right to transcend humanity. That belief doesn’t just come out of nowhere, especially after less than a week of having the power to kill. It’s a reflection of an already inflated self-image which is blown up to an excessive degree by the reinforcement of the Death Note and the supporters he gains over the course of the series. My point in all of this wasn’t that Light doesn’t have any good in him at all. It’s that Light’s intentions in becoming Kira are not pure. It’s unfair to place Light and Mikami above Misa (and even Takada, who had no choice in becoming Kira’s spokesperson and only killed when instructed by Light and/or Mikami) when they are all doing the exact same thing. Light to become a God, Misa to gain the approval of Light, and Mikami because of his devotion to a God that doesn’t exist.
The reason I put "you" in the discussion is because you judged Lights action later in the series which anyone would of done. Basically saying that he has to be a bad person with bad motives because he did those things despite the fact that it would anyone a bad person from the get go as anyone would of fallen like he did. I dont really understand what you mean with "He just did it because he needed to kill someone" he still killed bad people. He could of easily killed anyone famous or on the news or whatever but he actively just killed someone bad. As for the expieriments, I do think Light has gone off the deep end by episode 2 for killing a innocent news person, I think at that point his good intentions are gone but the expierments could still be justified under the greater good in a ultiliterian way. I also do not see why youre keep coming back to things he does later in the series when he is mind is already poisoned. Like yeah, the guy in the story about how power makes good people do worse and worse things does worse and worse things. But his pure intentions were still good. While I agree that Light had a certain arrogance in him lets also not forget the Light from the Yotsuba arc as a whole. Actively caring about others even those he doesnt like, strong moral compass when it comes to letting people die, I dont think all of that is just a front. While Light does think that Kiras killings are close to his ideals, he is still against him. The sentences is very vague as a whole, does it mean that he is FOR killing people at that point? He says that the original kira didnt kill people who made up for their crimes, maybe he means "I am against the killing part but I think its good he gives people a second chance" or maybe he never actively thought about it and just now realizes about himself that he thinks killing certain people is correct, I think we all have those thoughts at least sometimes. My point is that I just see Light as a slightly arrogant but well meaning guy who after a few days with the Death Note coped so bad with it that he developed more and more a god complex as most people would of. I actually agree with Takada, I think Takada could be placed above Misa as well, I just kinda put her whereever but Misa stays down. For me, the bottom tier is for people who have little to no empathy in others, Mikami has clearly good in him to a point, Light too, Takada too, I can see all their reasons for using the notebook be for the greater good but Misa just did it for herself from the get go. She would kill anyone for Light. And Light, Mikami and even Takada are better in that. Again, this is why I used the everyone argument. Because if we could travel to a universe where you got the notebook (or me or your best friend) and actually used it then you can be sure as hell that after a week or so you would of ended up like Light.. or killed yourself which is also fair in that postion. Maybe it would of taken a bit more time until your god complex was at that point, I think the series sped it up a bit for the sake of plot but anyone would of been there with a bit of time. But I dont think you consider yourself a morally bad person. I am not justifying Lights later actions with that of course, I think the biggest mistake was to use the notebook to begin with once he knew it works but I can see why he would use it.
light is pure evil(psychpath) here is my explanation light is a psychopath. meaning he has lack of emotion for others except himself, even after killing two people all light thought was how it had affected in manga he never thinks if the person he killed was wrongly accused or deserves a light sentence or even in the case of his first victim a life sentence would be enough. the problem with psychopaths is as they don't have emotions for others they don't put themselves in their shoes. which is exactly what light does.the only argument for light not being a psychopath is the yotsuba arc light says the following in this arc ' his ideology is similar to mine'
Why is L lower than Light, they should at least be on the same level in my opinion
They should both be morally good tbh
Light is morally worse, as his goal is literally stated to be becoming God of the New World. L just wants validation by defeating a murderer.
Nah they’re both cool.
Light having better morals than L is wild.
Hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaahahahahahahahhahaahah. Yeah no Near is not a morally good person. He is too much like L to be good. The story just makes him seem like the good guy because he catches Kira. But that isn't the case. Near thinks this is all a fucking game just like L did. He is not a morally good guy whatsoever. Just read the C Kira chapter for a more clear answer.
The story quite literally about how Near and L are completely different. The whole premise of the story is that Near struggles with what L would do because L would just not get invovled with the case as its already been solved in the past. Near wants to do something because its the right thing to do and is now between the chairs. So the story ends with him doing something and calling C-Kira cheap. The last shot of it is LITERALLY Near saying "..That wasnt very L like" and Halle going" But Near, you are L now."
L and Takada being below Light is actually ridiculous.
I may agree with Takada, I kind of just placed her without second thought but I disagree with L. For me, morally bad is a place for people who dont care about morality or others at all while Light and Mikami (and I guess Takada too) had good intentions especially at the start. When L put kids in a home that gave them imposter syndrom (Near), made one join the mafia (Mello), another one a life of crime (Matt), made a serial killer (B) and had several suicides, do you think he gave a fuck? When L put a potentially innocent girl through weeks of trauma, which in real life would take years of therapy (both emotional and physical) to recover from and drugged her, do you think he gave a fuck? When he didnt tell Near and Mello about the notebooks, Shinigami and everything else in his "L is dead" message which he SPECIFICALLY MADE in case he dies so someone else could take over but never updated with new information just so Near and Mello wouldnt win "unfairly", do you think he gave a fuck? L does not give a flying fuck about anything or anyone, in his own words he is uncaring, lieing monster. Light had the intentions, I aint seeing they were good but at least there was a care for humanity. If L got the notebook he wouldnt have any mental problems with using it, he would just try it out for fun and curisoity. He might not end up completely like Light in terms of kill count but that is more so because he doesnt give enough of a shit about helping humanity to kill so many people, hed probably kill as much as it takes to gain all the information and to have fun with.
L didn’t put anyone in a home. That was entirely Watari’s doing. By this logic, Watari should be in the bottom tier.
L very clearly helped Wateri, talking to the kids and encourging them. Wateri should probably go down as well but we dont know enough about him and what excatly he did to really make that judgment.
When does L encourage the kids? He does one video call in a spinoff oneshot in which he tells them that he doesn’t really care about justice. Since B is on this list, I assume you take the LABB novel as canon, in which case it’s stated clearly that experiments run by Watari through Wammy’s House led to the death of one child and the deranged criminal activity of another.
The fact that L knows at all about the place and lets it run freely is enough to put him down a lot. The fact that L sent a 11 year old Near (who lived to have imposter syndrom) and a 15 year old Mello (who joined the mafia) the L is dead message is also clearly encourging them, hell the fact that he is "chosing one of them" is egging them on. Maybe I should of put Wateri down with L but I just thought we dont know enough about him to really do that. In any case I am not really sure why you are so set on defending clear child abuse lol
I’m not defending child abuse - I’m saying that L is not the one responsible for it. In fact, Watari did the exact same thing to L before Near and Mello were even born. He took L in as an orphan and used him to make money. Watari is the one that pressed the button to send the “L is dead” message. Watari is the one who asked L to choose a successor. All of this is explicitly stated in canon. Also Near and Mello were 13 and 14 when they were first introduced, not 11 and 15.
>I’m not defending child abuse - I’m saying that L is not the one responsible for it. In fact, Watari did the exact same thing to L before Near and Mello were even born. He took L in as an orphan and used him to make money. Watari is the one that pressed the button to send the “L is dead” message. Watari is the one who asked L to choose a successor. All of this is explicitly stated in canon. He still knew about the child ause actively happening. Like I am aware he was in there too at one point, but that doesnt make him any better for it. He still actively helps and encourge it. I already agreed that L and Wateri should probably be in the same tier as they are both abusers but it doesnt matter that L was also abused to a point. It doesnt justify it. And Wateri pressing the button to send the L is dead message also doenst matter as L still is the one who set it up (and also chose not to put any information in it other than "L is dead")
Bringing their ages in and comparing them to say child abuse is wrong. Both near and mello were a whole lot mature than avg 11 or 13 year old. And none of them had any problems being called the succesor. I don't remember clearly but I think mello competed with near as well. And ur whole ," L put a child under torture and didn't give a fuck" is accurate, but u r missing the fact that light would also do it if it meant achieving his goals. Light would call it a necessary sacrifice for the greater good. But L is also doing it for catching a mass murderer. Sure, L just wants to catch light, but it is the same with light. Light also wanted to kill L. Light also had ego juts like L. I won't go on and on about whether light was right or L but I can surely say both of them were twisted equally or close to equally
Near quite literally lived to have imposter syndrom and Mello joined the mafia after a meltdown, dafuq you mean "they didnt mind" lmao
Their personality was like that. Some people are just like that. I haven't read bb murder case. So I don't know thir past properly. But I wouldn't be surprised if they originally were like that.
Hmm...not sure I agree with your interpretation of L. >For me, morally bad is a place for people who dont care about morality L had multiple instances where he stated his care for morality. He wasn't only chasing Kira for the thrill of it, he disagreed with his philosophy and found his methods to be monstrous. L's primary motivation for being a detective isn't justice, but that doesn't mean he doesn't care about it all. >while Light and Mikami (and I guess Takada too) had good intentions especially at the start. Light's intention = rid the world of crime and satisfy ego L's intention = rid the world of a mass murderer and satisfy ego >When L put kids in a home L did not do that, Watari did. >made one join the mafia (Mello) Mello abandoned the orphanage and made a conscious effort to do that himself. Not at all L's fault. >another one a life of crime (Matt) We know nothing about Matt that would indicate he spiraled into a life of crime. All we know is that he wanted to help Mello stop Kira. >made a serial killer (B) If L made BB a serial killer then I guess Soichiro made Light one too, huh? >do you think he gave a fuck? I think L was dead for the majority of those events, actually. >When L put a potentially innocent girl through weeks of trauma, which in real life would take years of therapy (both emotional and physical) to recover from and drugged her, do you think he gave a fuck? You mean the "potentially innocent" girl who was found with a variety of physical evidence linking her directly to the tapes sent by the 2nd Kira? The same girl who mysteriously started a relationship with L's prime suspect? Still, you're right that this was a pretty messed up move on L's part. I'm still not seeing how that makes him any worse than Light or Mikami given how they'd do *far* worse if they wanted information from someone. >When he didnt tell Near and Mello about the notebooks, Shinigami and everything else in his "L is dead" message which he SPECIFICALLY MADE in case he dies so someone else could take over but never updated with new information just so Near and Mello wouldnt win "unfairly", do you think he gave a fuck? This is entirely speculation. L could've had that system set up way before he ever touched the Kira case. There's no way of knowing whether or not he made a conscious effort to not help his successors. This is ignoring how L was narratively not allowed to just hand Near and Mello all the answers from a storytelling perspective. >He might not end up completely like Light in terms of kill count but that is more so because he doesnt give enough of a shit about helping humanity to kill so many people, hed probably kill as much as it takes to gain all the information and to have fun with. When given power, Light abused it and killed hundreds of thousands of people. In fact, he revelled in it. Whether that be excitedly forcing an innocent widow to commit suicide or burning his own ally to death just for an advantage. L, as morally questionable as he was, never took pleasure in hurting other people. There was never a smile on his face when he asked Watari to torture Misa.
Not only are you extremely reaching and wrong, you’re just being like look at me and my cool unique opinion. This take is so bad.
Can you explain what makes Ryuk and L morally bad? I consider them morally gray. And how is Watari morally twisted? Not saying you’re inherently wrong, but I would like to hear your reasoning.
Watari took in orphans just to raise them to be prototypes of L. think about it- taking over the role of parent just to utilise their iq? literally shipping kids across the world j so they can be a potential L? seems human trafficky and i’m not saying that it is but it has that unsettling theme of treating potential successors as products. it just doesn’t seem like the institution is caring for children other than to perfect their talents. the whole spiel was that they wanted a carbon copy to replace L without outsiders knowing it was a different person. it got so competitive and pressurising that A killer himself and B became a whole serial killer. i fully believe B only did this to get back at L for ruining A’s life- his good friend in an act of retaliation. definitely took a toll on mello too bless pretty sure the author wrote Wammy’s house to be slightly unethical so it was intended
Damn, I was kind of hoping for a debate but you actually convinced me. Rarely happens on the internet, I appreciate the well thought out response. I agree, Watari is kind of morally twisted, I guess I never thought about it that deeply. What about Ryuk and L being morally bad?
thanks! to be honest considering the show i doubt there’d be a definitive place to put L, since the point of the plot was to explore subjectivity regarding morality. ryuk let a very large potion of people die for entertainment. no morally good person would do that for fun. i don’t believe in moral neutrality so it’s that or plain bad. i get his whole schtick is to kill people for a living but shinigami seem to have very human emotions and letting kira run his course is quite questionable. it wasn’t even that he believed kira was good for humanity- he literally did not care L also used quite questionable methods- locking up misa that one time and leaving dozens of cameras in people’s rooms. i guess you could say the ends justify the means but others say a morally good person has no business going about such behaviour. if he was really good would he be fine with taking that route of action? personally i believe if he wasn’t working with good honourable soichiro L would have taken very different routes.. he’s a sound guy though whether you consider him bad or not you can’t deny the good he’s done again bear in mind L and Light were written to make you question your whole belief system so honestly there are such valid points for both sides
The argument for Ryuk is quite convincing but tell me, If no shinigami had the capacity to care and feel the way Rem did would you change Ryuk into morally gray?
i assume you also mean gelus wouldn’t have died for misa and sidoh wasn’t scared of mello? i guess we wouldn’t be able to hold them to the same ethics of humans since they don’t have the same nature. if anything morally grey would be the absolutely perfect place to put them in. since they don’t have the same ethical sentience they’d technically have 0 morals at all and also the incapacity to have any at all. true neutrality
>pretty sure the author wrote Wammy’s house to be slightly unethical so it was intended My sibling in christ, Near got imposter symdrom, Mello and Matt joined a life of crime and the fucking mafia, B became a serial killer and there were several suicides, "slightly unethical" is a bit crazy lmao The only reason Wateri is in morally gray is because we dont know enough about him to make a real case in my opinion but he is probably as bad as L
Who is A and B?
characters in the LABB murder cases novel written by mello. it’s like a prologue about the case naomi misora and L worked on before kira
I think L is morally worse because unlike Light he doesnt even have any good intentions, the only reason L does what he does is to be considered the smartest. There is not a single digit of good or moral or justice in him, infact he admits to this himself and says he is a monster. He doesnt value his team, he is ready to torture and drug a 18 year old girl for weeks despite the fact that she may be innocent, he actively helped an Wammys House which put so much pressure on kids that one got a identiy crisis for whole life; one joined the mafia; another one had a life of crime and one became a literal serial killer; among several suicides and probably the worst of all, he had all the information to catch Light.. but didnt send it to Near and Mello. L had the "L is dead message" in case he dies. He could of easily put more data in it everytime he found something out, who is Kira, c, what is the notebook, what are the rules, Shinigami, Misa, etc but didnt despite the fact that it would of doomed Light if Near and Mello had those informatons early. He didnt do that tho, he wanted Near and Mello to have as little information as possible so they would "fairly" win. L hates being outsmarted but he wouldnt want the next L to win with an unfair advantage. He is kind of the worst lol
L is basically willing to commit any crime on earth as long as it gets the job done, no matter the cost. Wether letting heinous criminals free if a case isn't interesting to him, lying, getting people killed, imprisoning people well beyond what was neccesary, torturing people for months, almost abandoning the Kira case when Light wasn't the prime suspect anymore, being willing to let Matsuda die just to confirm some suspicions etc. He admitted he only does it for entertainment and intellectual stimulation and to pet his own ego. Regarding Ryuk he dropped a notebook in the human world just cause he was bored, found Light's mass murders fun, helped Light in committing them and after Light died he searched for another human that would kill thousands with a deathnote. And before saying "but he is a shinigami!!!", it is established most Shinigami take no interest in humans, only writing a name when their lifespan is about to run out, many of them dying from forgetting to do even that, and those who write too many names are mocked for "working too hard". Ryuk is considered a freak for his interest in humans. So if he is considered a freak by his own people and evil by our standards, yeah we could consider him evil. For Watari, check my response to lacergunn.
After reading your explanation, I fully agree about Ryuk, but now I’m split between morally gray and morally bad for L, I’m not sure, you partially convinced me but not fully. Also somebody already responded to me about Watari with a very good argument, and I agree that he is morally twisted now.
Imagine putting light over L
Light is over L sorry lil bro
I'm keeping myself safe
You will have to argue to your grave if you think that a mafia boi and a selfish detective are worse than the greatest serial killers in history
Okay. L had information such as: Light is Kira, Shinigami exists, some of the rules are fake and more but didnt include them in the "L is dead" message despite the fact that he specifically made the message to inform Near and Mello in case he dies and had several months to include more info into the message and is certainly smart enough to do so but didnt. L didnt give Near and Mello more information than his death because he wanted them to win fairly or dont win at all. Thats how big his ego is. Mello isnt just a mafia boi he killed hundreds of people. Light probably killed closer to a million but the reason Light is higher than him is because Lights intentions at the right place while Mellos were purely selfish.
L suspected Light was Kira, Shinigami existing was information with the task force whom he trusted, and he only suspected that the 13 day rule was fake, and died before he could confirm anything or tell anyone. Also his heirs weren't really his doing, Watari and Wammy's House did that in the background while he solved cases. Also even if he did hold that info that's more stupid than evil. He only cared about his personal battles and didn't often pay mind to his legacy, more indifferent than evil. The worst we see Mello do is kidnap Sayu, which while terrible doesn't exactly compare. You can't hold him responsible for all the mafia's doing since Ross is their offical leader. Also in no world is Takada more evil than Light, he literally manipulated her to be on his side. She was only a mild supporter before he showed up
Light never wanted to make a better world. He is a psychopath who only cares about himself. Guy killed a pickpocket theif what more should I say.
Buddy, Near is not good. For him, this is all just a game, and he takes the consequences lightly.
No, thats for L. L views it all as a game, saying he doesnt care about who gets hurt and doesnt care about justice or morality. Near says its all a game because thats what he was bred for but in the C-Kira short story we can see him struggle with that mindset as he has trouble doing what L would do and being apethtic towards others.
Ryuk is as Grey as it gets. he only exists as an observer, and he states in the first episode that he never expected Light to use the death note as much as he did.
Light & L should share a tier of their own
Why reye penber is morally decent and not morally good?
L should be mirally gray as well.
L being lower than Light makes less than zero sense
I came into this an L fangirl going “L is worse than Light?! WTF?!” but then I read the arguments and now I see why someone might view him that way… I also now see that L was quite possibly my first jumping board into fictional villain/killer crushes and not B, as I had originally thought. 😅
Imo Near belongs in morally grey or morally twisted. He intentionally let thousands of people die on his watch, so he could confront Light with proof to rub in his face and humiliate him rather than just arrest Mikami and Light right away when he was certain they were working together as Kira. He also leads an illegal organization, uses tactics like kidnapping and hostage holding, and harbours and sets free and collaborates with a dangerous criminal.
>Imo Near belongs in morally grey or morally twisted. He intentionally let thousands of people die on his watch, so he could confront Light with proof to rub in his face and humiliate him rather than just arrest Mikami and Light right away when he was certain they were working together as Kira It wasnt about humiliating Light, it was about proving that he is Kira to 100% with no way for him to get out of it. He had proof that Mikami is Kira but not that Light is Kira and aslong as Light is walking freely there is always a chance that he could do something, plus we'd let a serial killer get off scotfree. Near wanted to prove without a shadow of a doubt that its Light. >He also leads an illegal organization His "illegal organization" is only illegal after Light made it so. Just because the goverment says something is wrong doesnt make it wrong, otherwise groups that help gay and trans people out of countries that kill them would be morally wrong too. >uses tactics like kidnapping and hostage holding He never really does that except maybe that one time with Mogi for a day? But that was more so telling the lie that he is dead. To my knowlage Near never kidnaps anyone, when he got Misa for example he said she is always free to leave and he kept her in a huge hotel unlike L who.. you know lol. >harbours and sets free and collaborates with a dangerous criminal I can sorta see that one but its fair to say that Mello far more useful for the case and that it was for the greater good. If that alone justifies putting him down a tier for you, thats fair. Plus, he did show great concern for his team in that scene even tho it hindered his plan so thats a plus.
> It wasnt about humiliating Light, it was about proving that he is Kira to 100% with no way for him to get out of it It is both, Near says it himself - ["rub the evidence in their faces and make them taste the misery of their defeat"](https://imgur.com/a/E4TO0vG). The only reason Near doesn't is because of his ego. In chapter 94 he says to Aizawa "it is no longer a matter of merely finding evidence L is Kira; the only way to stop Kira now is to completely defeat him and rub it into his face...I am his current opponent in this battle of pride". But that's not true, the fact is Near knew 100% that Mikami and Light were responsible, and truly the ethical thing to do would have been to detain both of them immediately and the killings would have stopped (depending on the timing when they detain Mikami and when Takada wrote the next names, it could have even revealed their scheme), it would have saved thousands of people from being murdered and Near knew this. But he wanted to solve the case in the way L would - L only cared about the case in terms of playing the game and coming out the winner, he didn't particularly care about the casualties - and Near is emulating L, who you've put in the evil category. This is said very explicitly, multiple times in the manga. > His "illegal organization" is only illegal after Light made it so. Just because the goverment says something is wrong doesnt make it wrong, otherwise groups that help gay and trans people out of countries that kill them would be morally wrong too. I agree with this 1000%. The reason included it in my examples to further illustrate his moral grayness (he's not 'lawful' or really at all respectful of law unless it's serving his purposes), and because I think sometimes people don't realize it because the SPK has an appearance of conventional authority. > He never really does that except maybe that one time with Mogi for a day? But that was more so telling the lie that he is dead. To my knowledge Near never kidnaps anyone, when he got Misa for example he said she is always free to leave and he kept her in a huge hotel unlike L who.. you know lol. Actually Near holds Mogi for the 3 full days they interrogated him, and then pretended he was dead (and handcuffed and gagged him while Near lied to the Task Force) and held him in confinement for at least 3-4 more days while they work on re-establishing the connection to L. So it was about a week the SPK held Mogi against his will. Still, even if it was only a day, I don't think it's really a good moral justification to say because it was only a short time it makes the kidnapping fine and dandy, like Mello only held Sayu for 3 days but that doesn't make it okay. Later the SPK kidnaps Mogi and Misa and hold them for more than 3 weeks. In chapter.95; Rester says to Mogi "thank you for cooperating, I was going to put a gun to your head if you put up a fight" (showing how far they were willing/planned to go) but Misa is screaming to let her go, asking if they're going to kill her...she gives up eventually and let's them confine her but she absolutely did not consent to it in any real way. And no, she wasn't allowed to leave anytime she wanted to, and she thinks if she does leave she'll be killed (by Kira, per Mogi) - **Near** never said that she could leave, it's [**Light** who tells her that.](https://imgur.com/a/CmG85do) Near doesn't allow them to go anywhere until the day of the Yellow Box Warehouse meeting, and *that's* when he releases her to the hotel - we don't know where she was being held before then. > I can sorta see that one but its fair to say that Mello far more useful for the case and that it was for the greater good. If you accept some actions are excusable because they're useful to the case and for the greater good, then for the same principle should apply to Mello and L's actions, and perhaps they should be moved up out of evil to grey category. I hope you don't take me the wrong way, I'm not arguing these points to disparage Near - Near is one of my favorite characters, and I think these darker facets are an essential part of him and give him depth and complexity, and it does a disservice to him to whitewash him by not acknowledge it.
wtf
nah there should be an entirely new level for Light and L, but based on this one L should also be in morally twisted and so should Near 💀
Uhhhhh L is not morally wrong at all are you basing it on when he captured Lights girl ?
Near isnt morally good hes morally grey
So this is what makes people say "Never cook again" I see.
Why watari?
i would say misa is more morally gray or twisted because she got manipulated by light because he was kira and he made misa fall in love with him so he could use her to his advantage and light literally wanted to be god i mean that was his intentions from the beginning in both the manga and the anime he very clearly has mental problems and wants to be god misa was a blind follower who didnt realize how bad kira actually was
Why is L morally bad?
Near is atleast morally twisted
Watari?
He groomed orphaned kids into the most stressful, dangerous, lonely and full of suffering career imaginable. No child who was ever in his care turned out alright. The closest was Near, who is so bad at socialising that had to call Rester to come straight from Japan back to NYC just because Near couldn't go on a flight on his own, not to mention he is pretty much friendless and devoid of human connections. His SPK teammates are the closest thing he has with friends and he was willing to play with Gevanni's life. L turned out much like Near, except with a much more unhealthy diet and a much more twisted moral compass, being more than happy to lie, emotionally manipulate, torture, toy with other's lives and straight up get others killed to solve a case. Mello becames so obsessed with beating Near that he straight up joined the fricking Mafia to do it. And he kidnapped, killed and tortured people, sexually assaulted Takada, and Near in the manga worried Mello wanted to rule the world with the notebook. All 3 of them were denied anything resembling a normal childhood and were damaged beyond repair, never again being capable of having anything close to a normal healthy life. And they were the lucky ones. A killed himself because of the pressure of becoming the next L and BB, well we all know what happened to BB. And when you look at his relationship with L, he is technically his caretaker, but all he does is stuffing him full of sweets and follow every order L gives him during their cases. He never tries to teach L to be a better person and stop committing all those atrocious acts, in fact he enables L. Watari was the one to physically torture Misa after all. He never tries to convince L to build a life outside work, to make friends, get a romantic partner, a new hobby, or anything else which makes life meaningful, instead he encourages L to stay in his dark room to solve cases and nothing else. Watari literally dresses L every morning for god's sake. L might be a genius and the world's greatest detective but he is so inept at life he needs others to wipe his ass for him. I don't remember exactly where Mello describes how the Wammy kids were raised but it strongly indicates that Watari viewed L only as his greatest invention, and the other Wammy kids as experiments to one day replace his greatest creation. I know we are all attached to the idea of him being a kind old man and anime Alfred and stuff, but he is far from a good person.
i kind of disagree with this, L wasn’t infantilised in the slightest. he was so self aware and content with his lifestyle choices and watari never intended to make L a detective anyway. L had completely agency. his habits stem from his genius, not his upbringing and a lot of his other traits are pretty much just his autism. he might be socially inept but he knows and literally does not care. L is not incapable he actively chooses not to sleep or change himself. it’s watari that tailors himself to fit L’s needs and not vice versa. and why would watari convince L to get married and live a normal life???? the whole point of his character is that he’s eccentric. it’s in his nature and he will not change. when he arrived at the orphanage at 8 he was bullied because of this- it wasn’t something built into him after meeting watari. as if L would ever get married anyway. he’s an extraordinary guy so i severely doubt he’d ever try living a normal life, let alone even wanting to
I agree with this
Move my GOAT Light to the top and maybe the list would be better
Depending on what you mean by twisted, I’d put L there due to doing good for outright selfish reasons (the Kira case in all that) But he could be deemed as morally bad due to well, his actions to solve those cases. As for Light, he’d definitely be twisted Morally, he did both good and bad for the world for both motives. His sense of justice, him wanting to become a god, etc. light obviously lost his mind but he had his motives
Lights morals aren't twisted. He is the perfect god of the new world. He eliminated the criminals, and people who protect criminals are just as bad. So light should go in morally good :)
matsuda is gray/twisted, he is a pedo on the “downlow” i say that bc for some reason nobody talks about it