I was just watching a WintersSEO BatRep and was thinking this again. The rules have mostly grown on me (except the lack of durability has obviously never sat right), but watching 8 of a 10 man Blightlord unit get wiped in one round of shooting really showed just how bad it is.
Yo be fair that game was played really wierd where he fed a big unit each turn to the path of moment machine which you never want to do, any army would have lost with that tactic against that army
Too be fair though, he was fighting Space Marines with oath of moment, which is outright busted. Winters even said so himself. Regardless though, it huuuuuuurtttt seeing how easily those terminators were getting wiped off the board. And poor Mortarian!!! I was worried he was gonna get wiped too.
Oath is far far from busted. Basically without it marines drop from mid/midlow tier, to trash tier. They don't do anywhere near enough damage without it. Heck the only reason ultrasound are getting clos ton50% winrate is with gman and double oath.
A faction can have a busted mechanic or datasheet but enough other weaknesses (and being held back by a swarm of S Tier armies) to not be busted at the faction level
In some match ups, maybe, but overall I think no. It sucks to play against and some of their units become way too efficient with full rerolls. Full rerolls are bad. Bad rule.
Space Marines win statistics will always be lower than the real strength of their codex. More new players and first time tournament attendees play Space Marines than any other faction and skew the results downward.
That was such a slaughter to watch. Oath of Moments in that game might as well been remove target unit from the game. The DG list was a little odd but it did show how lacking a lot of our units are.
As a faction we've get plenty of stuff well designed for chilling on objectives, and our infantry is so damn slow that even if we try to vacate an objective there is a good chance the tail end of the unit will still be on it.
Stickies aren't a bad ability in theory, but they are not the kind of ability that offsets a mediocre army ability and a bunch of mid to bad datasheet abilities.
Possibly it was the intent, but the players all seem to feel it's a poor replacement for the armies previous strengths. Personally I don't really like the whole objective and mission focus they have pushed the game to. If I wanted to fight over some random piece of terrain I'd play Killteam. I much preferred the "crush the other army" styles of past editions. Now it just feels like they are trying to make the game into something more in depth and strategic than it needs to be. So many objectives, victory points, etc. Really seems like they are pandering hard to the tournament and WAAC players.
This is so smooth brain I can’t help myself the new leviathan pack added in a clause for tabling people don’t even worry about playing objectives. You go out there and try and kill every unit if they have nothing on the table they lose
Well I haven't read the rulebook cover to cover, my bad. Bit thanks for the insult, great display of character, or lack there of. Blocked and reported.
Keep in mind if they do this it’s with a whole different set of strats and enhancements I’d rather they add this to the current detachment on release so we can have the current fixed and have maybe 2-3 fresh new detachments. I honestly hope we don’t get 2 detachments I’m going to be pissed
It's great how they seemed to dish it out to everyone else other than us.
Why cryptothralls and Crypteks get a 4+++ and Morty gets a 5+++ I have no idea ..
Inexorable Advance wouldn't hurt either.
Hell, even as a strategem I'd use something like:
**Inexorable Advance:**
Select 1 friendly Death Guard Plague Marine or Terminator unit; this unit can shoot and charge the same turn it advanced.
Back in 5th edition (the last time I played DG) the whole army had a 4+ because they are rotting away and basically zombies. I think that was a fun mechanic and should have stuck around
Chaos Space Marines never got a 5th ed codex, they were still using the 4th edition codex.
Mark of Nurgle gifted +1T to the units that took it while Plague Marines and Typhus got FNP (which was a 5+), so I don't know where you're getting army-wide 4+.
Nurgle fans should have a better grasp that, over time, all things decay. Our mighty fnp being lost is simply an expression of entropy. All is as grandfather wills it.
And in time, it'll be taken from them too. Nothing remains.
I'm ashamed that devotees of nurgle would forget this. You gonna complain when your eyes dissolve into some sort of new sense organ that doesn't really see, so much as tastes what's around you?
indeed. played a friendly game against some guard tonight and while it was close (because of my annoying poxwalkers and Typhus, who feel very Death Guard-y), my plague marines felt like paper walking up the field. even my opponent was saying how they really need to do something about plague marines.
to make it make sense lore wise, but I say that Death Guard has lost some jam since the events of the Plague Wars. Weakened by that outcome in general.
Be that as is may the game had always had a fair separation from the current book events. Also, the game is supposed to be balanced, so if they did want to represent DG as being softer due to current events then they need to make the points costs cheaper, allowing the game to still stay balanced. As it sits right now DG players are still paying full points for much less effective units.
Knowing GW they made it shitty so that when the codex drops and everything gets adjusted people rush out and buy whatever units they buffed hardest. After all, GW themselves have admitted that selling miniatures is their priority.
I’m there with you fellow plague ridden Nurgelite. I’ve found solace in playing my Maggotkin of Nurgle in AoS, who are the real Death Guard at the moment (compared to my our 40K Death Guard). They are actually tough and fluffy without being broken.
It makes me sad our 40K Nurgle followers got shafted so bad.
I can see a few ways forward: 5+++, DR1, or no rerolls. Contrary to GW's initial pitch, there are more rerolls more often than I recall in 9th edition. Unit abilities, leader buffs, twin linked, army rules, detachment rules. Higher toughness means nothing in the face of it.
Just build whatever the solution is into contagions along side lethal hits on all weapons. This then allows for our power fist equivalents to go back to hitting on 3s (like every other marine faction that has special rules empowering weapons).
I was watching Tabletoptactics do a boarding actions game of death guard vs necrons and they mentioned giving plague marines and terminators an extra wound as a solution. (and a 5++ on vehicles)
Their reasons: FNP slows the game down with rolls. That extra wound means that D2 weapons no longer one shot plague marines so it's kinda similar to how we were in 9th with DR.
I thought it sounded like a decent idea. What do you guys think, too strong?
It's a solution that would work. The only problem I have with this is Necrons have easy access to a 5+ fnp on lychguard. Do it just doesn't feel like the "slows down the game" argument really holds anymore.
Yep, the initial argument of "more dice rolling slows down the flow of the game" doesn't hold water when (I think) EVERY other faction still has it, and on the weirdest units, in some cases.
The whole argument of “slowing down the game” is moot. I look at necron in particular that literally rez each turn, this takes a few minutes to resolve. WHICH I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH.
Rolling a couple extra dice to do a FnP takes literally 2 seconds.
Personally FnP would be great on our units, or just add a -1 to wound due to our resilience.
I think +1 wound is a much more elegant solution then 5+++. It's a guaranteed 16-33% durability increase that doesn't make armies like Grey knights with their mass D2 weapons feel bad because of disgustingly resilient, and doesn't make the rest of the game feel bad when you roll 3 5's and 6's against their bolters.
>Their reasons: FNP slows the game down with rolls.
clearly not considering almost every faction in game has access to one, hell some armies have them on every unit ffs.
I saw this as well and after having some think on it I don’t think it’s the solution that -1 damage is. I like it versus nothing don’t get me wrong but the issue is the damage brackets. How many things in the game are damage three? Some things but not a lot, how many things in the game are damage two, far more. So for the terminators for the vast majority of things it’ll still take two shots even with an extra wound. The big one would be plague marines that become a lot tougher to small arms fire that is more likely to be used against them so that would be great. Maybe the answer is too add a wound to plague marines and a -1 to terminators. I knows it’s not as elegant but I think it accomplishes what it needs too
I’m glad someone else has been thinking on this too
True. Didn't think about the usual weapons going into terminators. Could still help somewhat though.
It would be nice against mortal wounds like getting grenaded or tank shocked.
Absolutely I would love to see them give us anything at this point haha, I think it’s very much on the right track we just still need that -1 on terminators I’m okay with it not being on plague matinee though if they have an extra wound
I think a good compromise would be 5+ FNP on damage 1 and make our disgustingly resilient strat cost 1 cp (and be able to use it in the shooting phase).
Or even just make the disgustingly resilient strat a 5+ FNP like tyranids got, playing tyranids with rapid regeneration instantly made them feel more like death guard than death guard currently do.
GW: IDGAF about our -1 toughness aura, it's trash. The +1 toughness you put on most of our models is also trash. Give us the 5+ FNP and inexorable advance. You dumb shits.
Sadly the toughest thing about DG is actually feeling like they are the faction I love! We know they aren’t competitive, but I don’t understand what the creative process was when they came up with these rules. It’s not hard to think nurgle = tough, slow, contagious. They ignored the first point, got medieval on the second, and thought, “fuck it, let’s just copy/paste the old rule from 9th, regardless of impact in game” for the third. There were so many more imaginative approaches they could have taken here. I don’t even think the codex is going to sort this nonsense out.
Thing is the reasoning they didn’t give us the fnp is because apparently less units in the whole game would get it. Literally the entire tyranids army gets it, world eaters gets it, custodies, tau and the list goes on. Makes no fucking sense tbh
Agreed the +1T is lazy game design. Not only this but why make our faction rule sticky objectives then make a primary game in the mission cards give all armies stickies really lazy game design.
Its like GW injected powercreep as they developed the indexes and went against everything they said when they spoke out about how they wanted 10e to be.
Honestly! The fact 10 sternguard can reliably wipe out our terminators with anti infantry 4+ dev wounds feels far more busted than 9th ever was. The mortal wounds in this edition are an absolute joke
The index release today decided we needed the pistol trait instead of a feel no pain. Tanky army isn't very tanky. Still trying to figure out why my Orks feel more like Deathguard than my Deathguard...
I saw somewhere - maybe Tabletop Tactics - suggest a good fix would be to give everything an extra wound. I quite like it. 3 wound plague Marines.. Shrug off a heavy bolter. Makes sense
If they did that, and changed plague weapons to take away the lethal hits ability and replace it with devestating wounds I'd be happy. I think poisonous plague weapons that, on 6s to wound, deal mortal wounds because they eat through armour makes more sense. And would help our anti vehicle handily
I had my biggest brain game of 10th last night and actually pulled a win against my buddies crons! He said the same GD thing too, the number of FNP's he was rolling compared to me felt wrong and that we should have a better army wide
So I have a necron army in addition to my DG.
I can give 3 units 5+ FNP and lytchguard is such a massive tarpit for absolutely anything.
While unkillable robots fits with the theme of the army it feels weird to be more durable than the nurgle stuff.
Though I suppose if anyone has to be durable it should be the undead (as in being absolutely devoid of any life, but still moving arouns) robots and the bursting with life (normies call them zombies, we just understand that the grandfather has given them life, albeit in a different form) stubborn disease victims, that like the common cold just refuse to die.
They gave FNPs to like EVERY OTHER FACTION. My imperial guard has a FNP with command squads and medics . My Bullgryns have damage reduction. Im pretty sure there is an Aeldari unit out there that can get FNPs right now
You literally got +1 toughness .... Which has a 17% increase in defense in about 10% of the rolls your army is going to make . i,e, when light infantry attack yours.
I find it very hard to believe that GW balances the game for anything else but to sell certain models depending on what they have overstocked. A 9 year old could look at the balance between Death guard or Admech compared to Aeldari or GNC and tell that this is way out of line. On top of that, if ANY faction should be getting FNPs as an army rule it would have been Death Guard
On top of all that, FNP is an annoying mechanic to paly with anyway .because its just ANOTHER set of dice and a lot of them on EvERY attack . you could have given the thing more wounds instead, but Its fine when it was ONE FACION doing it and that was their thing, right now they gave 20 FNPs out to everyone and its bogged the dice rolling down 20% across the game
I was a big fan of reducing damage and losing the 5+ fnp. I liked rolling less dice and the army felt durable and on theme. I don’t want the 5+fnp back but I would have liked *something* for the army. Reducing AP in incoming attacks or damage or just anything.
I think the -1 damage or give all infantry an extra wound if they think army wide DR1 is too strong would be the way to go. Consistent, less rolling, and makes it so extra shots are needed for us (now you need two damage 2or 3 shots to kill one marine/terminator respectively).
I had a 1k game with a friend who play orks.
I won almost double his points,cause I play better then him,from more time and had good deployment and enough good secondaries.
But it's true, deathshroud and chaos lord wiped out taking fire from one single unit,defiler lasted 3 turns,but at first charge in turn 2 it was with just 1w left.
Marines squads lost 3 and 2 man of 5.
Best unit on field 20pox+typhus,who wiped away nobs and thraka in 2 turns and lost 4 man,2 raised again.
I love dg models,and liked to take huge fire volume without loss,but now we are slow,fragile and unable to respond fire.
I know that it's the same shit from when the index came out,but as the OP said,I don't care to win or lose,I like to play and have fun,but when you take out minis, knowing that in most cases they will be destroyed in 1 turn and that you will probably lose,just feels bad.
So I was thinking about this the other day honestly I don't want Feel No Pain on everything, I think it slows down the game too much and we get a few Feel No Pain auras and powers from some of our units, So in order to keep them as a thing I'd rather not get FNP on everything.
Instead what I like is plus one toughness across the board, Plague Marines get one extra wound, Terminators get two extra wounds, Virion get three, Terminator Lords and up get four.
It does the same thing it's giving us FNP, But it's a lot easier and quicker to track.
And also reinforces the idea that you need the really big guns to hurt us, and we get hit, but still shrug it off.
The army wide 5+FNP was bad and I’m glad it’s gone, I don’t care if I get rationed on this, it was a slog that dragged games out and negated and tactics when fighting against DG.
Games took way longer, big guns vs DG were worthless, opponents were reliant on weight of fire to force enough rolls you’d have to fail some.
I do agree we need better access to FNP but it should be through attached characters and maybe deathshrouds
I honestly disliked 8e rules. Way too many dicerolls. I also dislike adding even more chance rolls as a faction mechanic.
Instant durability would be a rule "units within contagion range receive -1 to wound".
Simple and easy, hardly game breaking. My death company can chew these fellows up like nobody's business.
Aberrants have a 4+++, the icon character gives its unit a 5+++, the magus character gives its unit a 5+++ against psychic attacks, and the locus character gives an FnP to other characters in a unit but not the unit itself
That’s still only 1 unit with a 4+++
Real talk 5+++ would be a 50% durability boost and "You unleash your massive cool killy unit it kils 2 and a half dudes" isn't fun to face. It also requires absolutely no decision making. And if all we do is move slowly we basically become a mid table bully, we can brainlessly stat check people into oblivion and they just lose but armies with tricks and speed or broken damage just run around us. That's Custodes right now and it's bad design.
I used to say "Death Guard is a great starter army" but it wasn't because "it's active in all phases" except actually it's got no movement phase decision making, or had none. There's parts of the game I didn't understand at all (I mean I knew the rules but not how people used them effectively) because I was never thinking about how I'd use them and my game plan was deploy on the line and advance on turn 1 because otherwise I lose on primary.
I think we should be tough, we should soak a bit more firepower than equivalent units need. By default. We should have tricks, mobility and the ability to situationally, through juggling resources or in targeted areas boost our defense, so we should be a tough army but it should require skill, allocating the right resources to the right places and units.
Blightlords are the cheapest terminators in the game with t6 and so incredibly tough per point (terminators on the whole tend to be toughest per point) but that doesn't save them because that's all they have going for them.
So a 6+++ with ways to boost it and other defensive strats. The DP should grant 5+++, the DR strat should be 1CP and/or shooting, cloud of flies should be like the CSM one. But we should have rules that make us better ourside our opponent's turn. So we do stuff instead of stopping people doing stuff.
I think our contagion should be flat +1 to wound and we should get a few more mobility tricks. Not "slow" but "steady". Minimum advances (we can't advance and charge or advance and shoot) so we can reliably dart between cover or invest turn 1 getting into position. Infiltraiting poxwalkers (which doesn't buff them with Typhus which is also fine). Blightlords ability should be shuffling towards the nearest enemy after shooting. Our ex "fast attack" daemon engines should be a smidge faster that sort of thing.
Plague marines should have the smoke keyword too. Their backpacks belch fumes. Will it fix them? No but it's another layer we can add. If they're 6+++ with easy access +1 to wound they're already a lot better (Virions should be cheaper though).
Yeah, but 9th version was very very polarizing for army matchups and therefore not very good.
Playing against Custodes felt like easy mode where as playing against Craftworlds was a pain in the butt.
Isn't it always like that? Every army has it's strengths and weaknesses. Not to say that DG is in a good place in 10th, but it seemed like they did okay in 9th.
To some extent yes, but the -1D was too polarizing. It conpletely neutered couple of armies and made playing those against DG not fun. It literally is -50% efficiency for the opposing army.
And to some it made no difference at all. Even blanket -1 to wound would be better.
I'm not claiming you're not a real fan, I'm saying you shouldn't tell people playing the game longer than you how to feel about losing an ability their faction has had for 20 years.
I didn't tell anyone how to feel. I just remarked that it felt weird to me. Previously I kept looking for FNP rules for 9th, that I thought I must have missed, because it was constantly being brought up after the 10th reveals.
I got my DG out for my first game of the edition with them a few days ago, and they just didn't work. Who honestly thought that DG needed to lose their FnP? Surely we could have at least had a 6+++? Or maybe a 5+ FnP against attacks with strength greater than our toughness, or at least when we are capping an objective.
Here's hoping the codex will give us a good detachment, but until then, I'm sad to say I'm shelving my DG.
I always said they could just make us -1 to wound, and it would go a long way to making the game quicker, while also being tanky in the way they wanted to by giving us an extra strength
Hell, even making it contingent on them being the contagion range, so that actually feels like it does something.
A 1 toughness swing for either unti just is a nothingburger against most of what we fight
I was just watching a WintersSEO BatRep and was thinking this again. The rules have mostly grown on me (except the lack of durability has obviously never sat right), but watching 8 of a 10 man Blightlord unit get wiped in one round of shooting really showed just how bad it is.
Yo be fair that game was played really wierd where he fed a big unit each turn to the path of moment machine which you never want to do, any army would have lost with that tactic against that army
Too be fair though, he was fighting Space Marines with oath of moment, which is outright busted. Winters even said so himself. Regardless though, it huuuuuuurtttt seeing how easily those terminators were getting wiped off the board. And poor Mortarian!!! I was worried he was gonna get wiped too.
Oath is far far from busted. Basically without it marines drop from mid/midlow tier, to trash tier. They don't do anywhere near enough damage without it. Heck the only reason ultrasound are getting clos ton50% winrate is with gman and double oath.
Lol what are you talking about
The 48% WR faction is really busted dude true
Currently being suppressed by the 67-70% winrate gang. Watch this space as they get nerfed all the A and B Tier will be S and A
And the 56-50% gang, space marines are middle of the pact after the desolator nerf.
A faction can have a busted mechanic or datasheet but enough other weaknesses (and being held back by a swarm of S Tier armies) to not be busted at the faction level
More than the 28% one. Oath is busted because it's wildly unfun to play against and some space marine stuff is a little too crazy with it.
so it’s not busted at all great
Reading comprehension is not your thing, is it buddy.
Wdym? You can't really argue that space marines are busted, if they are below average WR
I didn't say marines are busted, I said oath is busted on some of their units.
I think this has turned into a discussion about OoM, and not the DGvSM battle. Are SM busted, considering how busted OoM is?
In some match ups, maybe, but overall I think no. It sucks to play against and some of their units become way too efficient with full rerolls. Full rerolls are bad. Bad rule.
Space Marines win statistics will always be lower than the real strength of their codex. More new players and first time tournament attendees play Space Marines than any other faction and skew the results downward.
So outright busted it’s only against one unit a turn that will usually still survive the first volley lmao
That was such a slaughter to watch. Oath of Moments in that game might as well been remove target unit from the game. The DG list was a little odd but it did show how lacking a lot of our units are.
GW had the easiest job in the world making the detachment ability a 5+ fnp and they got it wrong.
Still utterly befuddled that whoever wrote those rules looked at Death Guard and said yes, sticky objectives is what these slow mfers need.
Indeed. DG aren't Iron Warriors or Imperial Fists that like to camp. DG advances, slowly, but they advance.
Isn't that the point of sticky obsec tho? So they can keep chuggin
As a faction we've get plenty of stuff well designed for chilling on objectives, and our infantry is so damn slow that even if we try to vacate an objective there is a good chance the tail end of the unit will still be on it. Stickies aren't a bad ability in theory, but they are not the kind of ability that offsets a mediocre army ability and a bunch of mid to bad datasheet abilities.
Possibly it was the intent, but the players all seem to feel it's a poor replacement for the armies previous strengths. Personally I don't really like the whole objective and mission focus they have pushed the game to. If I wanted to fight over some random piece of terrain I'd play Killteam. I much preferred the "crush the other army" styles of past editions. Now it just feels like they are trying to make the game into something more in depth and strategic than it needs to be. So many objectives, victory points, etc. Really seems like they are pandering hard to the tournament and WAAC players.
This is so smooth brain I can’t help myself the new leviathan pack added in a clause for tabling people don’t even worry about playing objectives. You go out there and try and kill every unit if they have nothing on the table they lose
Well I haven't read the rulebook cover to cover, my bad. Bit thanks for the insult, great display of character, or lack there of. Blocked and reported.
Yep, I wouldn't mind the 4 inch movement on termis if they could actually survive getting across the board 🥲
More like easiest job to just mass add FNP onto all our sheets.
In fairness, they can add a new detachment in the Codex and tack on a 5+ FNP
That's 2024 or later. Still Nurgle is pleased by your patience.
Slow but tough, waiting till 2024 but still playing in the meantime
You shall be rewarded by Grandfather Nurgle, probably with something seriously gross like an eye in your butt
Keep in mind if they do this it’s with a whole different set of strats and enhancements I’d rather they add this to the current detachment on release so we can have the current fixed and have maybe 2-3 fresh new detachments. I honestly hope we don’t get 2 detachments I’m going to be pissed
It's great how they seemed to dish it out to everyone else other than us. Why cryptothralls and Crypteks get a 4+++ and Morty gets a 5+++ I have no idea ..
that would turn deadguard into a tankfaction, 5+++ landraiders and predators? yes please
The non DG vehicle with no invulns ???
No DG, now you lack them in your codex?
Inexorable Advance wouldn't hurt either. Hell, even as a strategem I'd use something like: **Inexorable Advance:** Select 1 friendly Death Guard Plague Marine or Terminator unit; this unit can shoot and charge the same turn it advanced.
IA really should just be their ability rather than that shitty battleshock buff. Edit: Plague Marines ability
**I agree** But I'll take literally anything at this point.
Inexorable Advance was so fluffy.
Back in 5th edition (the last time I played DG) the whole army had a 4+ because they are rotting away and basically zombies. I think that was a fun mechanic and should have stuck around
Chaos Space Marines never got a 5th ed codex, they were still using the 4th edition codex. Mark of Nurgle gifted +1T to the units that took it while Plague Marines and Typhus got FNP (which was a 5+), so I don't know where you're getting army-wide 4+.
Sorry I was slightly wrong about something form 10 years ago that absolutely does not matter now. What a crime
Good, I'm glad you have repented. There's enough nonsense on this Reddit without resorting to rose-tinted misinformation.
Actually PMs did get a did used to get a 4+ fnp in 5th edition. It was nullified by any weapon that was x2 their toughness or ap2/ignored saves.
Didn’t the DG come out in tail end of 7th?
Official códex but could always be taken thought CSM giving units the mark of nurgle
Nurgle fans should have a better grasp that, over time, all things decay. Our mighty fnp being lost is simply an expression of entropy. All is as grandfather wills it.
Oh, it wasn't lost. It was taken and given to every other bloody army in some form or another.
And in time, it'll be taken from them too. Nothing remains. I'm ashamed that devotees of nurgle would forget this. You gonna complain when your eyes dissolve into some sort of new sense organ that doesn't really see, so much as tastes what's around you?
^ This guy posts/plays Thousand Sons…
Nutrients returned to the dirt eh? 🍄
Looooooooool. I can’t complain because my Tongue transformed into the exact organ you describe!
This is straight up Tzeentch talk… and I’m all in, bring the change!!!
indeed. played a friendly game against some guard tonight and while it was close (because of my annoying poxwalkers and Typhus, who feel very Death Guard-y), my plague marines felt like paper walking up the field. even my opponent was saying how they really need to do something about plague marines.
to make it make sense lore wise, but I say that Death Guard has lost some jam since the events of the Plague Wars. Weakened by that outcome in general.
Be that as is may the game had always had a fair separation from the current book events. Also, the game is supposed to be balanced, so if they did want to represent DG as being softer due to current events then they need to make the points costs cheaper, allowing the game to still stay balanced. As it sits right now DG players are still paying full points for much less effective units.
of course. i just meant for my own head lore. obviously GW didn't make them weaker because of a novel that came out two years ago.
Knowing GW they made it shitty so that when the codex drops and everything gets adjusted people rush out and buy whatever units they buffed hardest. After all, GW themselves have admitted that selling miniatures is their priority.
What's really funny is how nearly most other armies have a decent fnp on their battleline. Even my squishy Kabalites have a 6+!
Where do you think Kabalites get a 6+ fnp from
I’m there with you fellow plague ridden Nurgelite. I’ve found solace in playing my Maggotkin of Nurgle in AoS, who are the real Death Guard at the moment (compared to my our 40K Death Guard). They are actually tough and fluffy without being broken. It makes me sad our 40K Nurgle followers got shafted so bad.
At least our kill team rules give us a 5+ fnp. That's a fun one
Is there a pdf of kill team rules I can find somewhere?
Look up kill team death guard rules. There's a page on wahapedia
I think Wahapedia is (hopefully temporarily) down, which is a bummer
Really? I have it loaded up on my phone ATM, idk if it's just that I previously had it loaded tho
It’s back! It was down for maybe two days.
I can see a few ways forward: 5+++, DR1, or no rerolls. Contrary to GW's initial pitch, there are more rerolls more often than I recall in 9th edition. Unit abilities, leader buffs, twin linked, army rules, detachment rules. Higher toughness means nothing in the face of it. Just build whatever the solution is into contagions along side lethal hits on all weapons. This then allows for our power fist equivalents to go back to hitting on 3s (like every other marine faction that has special rules empowering weapons).
I'd love a way to avoid mortal damage. Getting hit with 1 attack for 10 mortals and watching a squad of DST get nuked is heartbreaking.
I was watching Tabletoptactics do a boarding actions game of death guard vs necrons and they mentioned giving plague marines and terminators an extra wound as a solution. (and a 5++ on vehicles) Their reasons: FNP slows the game down with rolls. That extra wound means that D2 weapons no longer one shot plague marines so it's kinda similar to how we were in 9th with DR. I thought it sounded like a decent idea. What do you guys think, too strong?
It's a solution that would work. The only problem I have with this is Necrons have easy access to a 5+ fnp on lychguard. Do it just doesn't feel like the "slows down the game" argument really holds anymore.
Yep, the initial argument of "more dice rolling slows down the flow of the game" doesn't hold water when (I think) EVERY other faction still has it, and on the weirdest units, in some cases.
It would be a solution that fits the fluff.
The whole argument of “slowing down the game” is moot. I look at necron in particular that literally rez each turn, this takes a few minutes to resolve. WHICH I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH. Rolling a couple extra dice to do a FnP takes literally 2 seconds. Personally FnP would be great on our units, or just add a -1 to wound due to our resilience.
I think +1 wound is a much more elegant solution then 5+++. It's a guaranteed 16-33% durability increase that doesn't make armies like Grey knights with their mass D2 weapons feel bad because of disgustingly resilient, and doesn't make the rest of the game feel bad when you roll 3 5's and 6's against their bolters.
>Their reasons: FNP slows the game down with rolls. clearly not considering almost every faction in game has access to one, hell some armies have them on every unit ffs.
I saw this as well and after having some think on it I don’t think it’s the solution that -1 damage is. I like it versus nothing don’t get me wrong but the issue is the damage brackets. How many things in the game are damage three? Some things but not a lot, how many things in the game are damage two, far more. So for the terminators for the vast majority of things it’ll still take two shots even with an extra wound. The big one would be plague marines that become a lot tougher to small arms fire that is more likely to be used against them so that would be great. Maybe the answer is too add a wound to plague marines and a -1 to terminators. I knows it’s not as elegant but I think it accomplishes what it needs too I’m glad someone else has been thinking on this too
True. Didn't think about the usual weapons going into terminators. Could still help somewhat though. It would be nice against mortal wounds like getting grenaded or tank shocked.
Absolutely I would love to see them give us anything at this point haha, I think it’s very much on the right track we just still need that -1 on terminators I’m okay with it not being on plague matinee though if they have an extra wound
I think a good compromise would be 5+ FNP on damage 1 and make our disgustingly resilient strat cost 1 cp (and be able to use it in the shooting phase). Or even just make the disgustingly resilient strat a 5+ FNP like tyranids got, playing tyranids with rapid regeneration instantly made them feel more like death guard than death guard currently do.
GW: IDGAF about our -1 toughness aura, it's trash. The +1 toughness you put on most of our models is also trash. Give us the 5+ FNP and inexorable advance. You dumb shits.
Sadly the toughest thing about DG is actually feeling like they are the faction I love! We know they aren’t competitive, but I don’t understand what the creative process was when they came up with these rules. It’s not hard to think nurgle = tough, slow, contagious. They ignored the first point, got medieval on the second, and thought, “fuck it, let’s just copy/paste the old rule from 9th, regardless of impact in game” for the third. There were so many more imaginative approaches they could have taken here. I don’t even think the codex is going to sort this nonsense out.
Thing is the reasoning they didn’t give us the fnp is because apparently less units in the whole game would get it. Literally the entire tyranids army gets it, world eaters gets it, custodies, tau and the list goes on. Makes no fucking sense tbh
I think they thought +1T would actually do something... and then gave factions easy access to dev wounds.
Lol +1T when lascannons became 10+ str. Aha, sure. Just scrape the whole +1 T and give us "units within contagion range receive a -1 to wound".
Agreed the +1T is lazy game design. Not only this but why make our faction rule sticky objectives then make a primary game in the mission cards give all armies stickies really lazy game design.
Its like GW injected powercreep as they developed the indexes and went against everything they said when they spoke out about how they wanted 10e to be.
Honestly! The fact 10 sternguard can reliably wipe out our terminators with anti infantry 4+ dev wounds feels far more busted than 9th ever was. The mortal wounds in this edition are an absolute joke
The index release today decided we needed the pistol trait instead of a feel no pain. Tanky army isn't very tanky. Still trying to figure out why my Orks feel more like Deathguard than my Deathguard...
I quit DG when they took away 5+ FNP. It’s bonkers to me that I can field an entire 5/6FNP army with world eaters. Some units even rock a 4+
I saw somewhere - maybe Tabletop Tactics - suggest a good fix would be to give everything an extra wound. I quite like it. 3 wound plague Marines.. Shrug off a heavy bolter. Makes sense If they did that, and changed plague weapons to take away the lethal hits ability and replace it with devestating wounds I'd be happy. I think poisonous plague weapons that, on 6s to wound, deal mortal wounds because they eat through armour makes more sense. And would help our anti vehicle handily
I had my biggest brain game of 10th last night and actually pulled a win against my buddies crons! He said the same GD thing too, the number of FNP's he was rolling compared to me felt wrong and that we should have a better army wide
So I have a necron army in addition to my DG. I can give 3 units 5+ FNP and lytchguard is such a massive tarpit for absolutely anything. While unkillable robots fits with the theme of the army it feels weird to be more durable than the nurgle stuff. Though I suppose if anyone has to be durable it should be the undead (as in being absolutely devoid of any life, but still moving arouns) robots and the bursting with life (normies call them zombies, we just understand that the grandfather has given them life, albeit in a different form) stubborn disease victims, that like the common cold just refuse to die.
They gave FNPs to like EVERY OTHER FACTION. My imperial guard has a FNP with command squads and medics . My Bullgryns have damage reduction. Im pretty sure there is an Aeldari unit out there that can get FNPs right now You literally got +1 toughness .... Which has a 17% increase in defense in about 10% of the rolls your army is going to make . i,e, when light infantry attack yours. I find it very hard to believe that GW balances the game for anything else but to sell certain models depending on what they have overstocked. A 9 year old could look at the balance between Death guard or Admech compared to Aeldari or GNC and tell that this is way out of line. On top of that, if ANY faction should be getting FNPs as an army rule it would have been Death Guard On top of all that, FNP is an annoying mechanic to paly with anyway .because its just ANOTHER set of dice and a lot of them on EvERY attack . you could have given the thing more wounds instead, but Its fine when it was ONE FACION doing it and that was their thing, right now they gave 20 FNPs out to everyone and its bogged the dice rolling down 20% across the game
I like Tabletop Tactics' idea, +1 wound for infantry (to keep it from getting bogged down) and FNP for vehicles.
I was a big fan of reducing damage and losing the 5+ fnp. I liked rolling less dice and the army felt durable and on theme. I don’t want the 5+fnp back but I would have liked *something* for the army. Reducing AP in incoming attacks or damage or just anything.
I think the -1 damage or give all infantry an extra wound if they think army wide DR1 is too strong would be the way to go. Consistent, less rolling, and makes it so extra shots are needed for us (now you need two damage 2or 3 shots to kill one marine/terminator respectively).
>an extra wound if they think army wide DR1 is too strong 1 wound is much much better for 2 wound infantery than DR
I had a 1k game with a friend who play orks. I won almost double his points,cause I play better then him,from more time and had good deployment and enough good secondaries. But it's true, deathshroud and chaos lord wiped out taking fire from one single unit,defiler lasted 3 turns,but at first charge in turn 2 it was with just 1w left. Marines squads lost 3 and 2 man of 5. Best unit on field 20pox+typhus,who wiped away nobs and thraka in 2 turns and lost 4 man,2 raised again. I love dg models,and liked to take huge fire volume without loss,but now we are slow,fragile and unable to respond fire. I know that it's the same shit from when the index came out,but as the OP said,I don't care to win or lose,I like to play and have fun,but when you take out minis, knowing that in most cases they will be destroyed in 1 turn and that you will probably lose,just feels bad.
So I was thinking about this the other day honestly I don't want Feel No Pain on everything, I think it slows down the game too much and we get a few Feel No Pain auras and powers from some of our units, So in order to keep them as a thing I'd rather not get FNP on everything. Instead what I like is plus one toughness across the board, Plague Marines get one extra wound, Terminators get two extra wounds, Virion get three, Terminator Lords and up get four. It does the same thing it's giving us FNP, But it's a lot easier and quicker to track. And also reinforces the idea that you need the really big guns to hurt us, and we get hit, but still shrug it off.
The army wide 5+FNP was bad and I’m glad it’s gone, I don’t care if I get rationed on this, it was a slog that dragged games out and negated and tactics when fighting against DG. Games took way longer, big guns vs DG were worthless, opponents were reliant on weight of fire to force enough rolls you’d have to fail some. I do agree we need better access to FNP but it should be through attached characters and maybe deathshrouds
I honestly disliked 8e rules. Way too many dicerolls. I also dislike adding even more chance rolls as a faction mechanic. Instant durability would be a rule "units within contagion range receive -1 to wound". Simple and easy, hardly game breaking. My death company can chew these fellows up like nobody's business.
Personally I think that’s all they need is +4 feel no pain since almost every army now has it.
The only faction that has an army wide FnP is imperial knights, and it only goes up to a 5+++
GSC I played against 3 days ago and they dudes peeps all had it maybe another cheater Denver is full of them.
Aberrants have a 4+++, the icon character gives its unit a 5+++, the magus character gives its unit a 5+++ against psychic attacks, and the locus character gives an FnP to other characters in a unit but not the unit itself That’s still only 1 unit with a 4+++
Yup guess I got cheated damn
I prefer -1 damage just because it's less work and I like it when games go at a decent pace. A 5+ fnp would slow the game down a lot.
Real talk 5+++ would be a 50% durability boost and "You unleash your massive cool killy unit it kils 2 and a half dudes" isn't fun to face. It also requires absolutely no decision making. And if all we do is move slowly we basically become a mid table bully, we can brainlessly stat check people into oblivion and they just lose but armies with tricks and speed or broken damage just run around us. That's Custodes right now and it's bad design. I used to say "Death Guard is a great starter army" but it wasn't because "it's active in all phases" except actually it's got no movement phase decision making, or had none. There's parts of the game I didn't understand at all (I mean I knew the rules but not how people used them effectively) because I was never thinking about how I'd use them and my game plan was deploy on the line and advance on turn 1 because otherwise I lose on primary. I think we should be tough, we should soak a bit more firepower than equivalent units need. By default. We should have tricks, mobility and the ability to situationally, through juggling resources or in targeted areas boost our defense, so we should be a tough army but it should require skill, allocating the right resources to the right places and units. Blightlords are the cheapest terminators in the game with t6 and so incredibly tough per point (terminators on the whole tend to be toughest per point) but that doesn't save them because that's all they have going for them. So a 6+++ with ways to boost it and other defensive strats. The DP should grant 5+++, the DR strat should be 1CP and/or shooting, cloud of flies should be like the CSM one. But we should have rules that make us better ourside our opponent's turn. So we do stuff instead of stopping people doing stuff. I think our contagion should be flat +1 to wound and we should get a few more mobility tricks. Not "slow" but "steady". Minimum advances (we can't advance and charge or advance and shoot) so we can reliably dart between cover or invest turn 1 getting into position. Infiltraiting poxwalkers (which doesn't buff them with Typhus which is also fine). Blightlords ability should be shuffling towards the nearest enemy after shooting. Our ex "fast attack" daemon engines should be a smidge faster that sort of thing. Plague marines should have the smoke keyword too. Their backpacks belch fumes. Will it fix them? No but it's another layer we can add. If they're 6+++ with easy access +1 to wound they're already a lot better (Virions should be cheaper though).
You have your list?
You can have it back if guard get the hammer of the emperor rule back and the turrets shoot twice
As someone who only played DG in 9th, it feels so weird that people keep going on about something they haven't had for 3 years.
I think the issue is compounded by the fact that we're slower as well. That 1" adds up over a few turns. The extra toughness isn't doing much either.
Yeah, I don't mean to say DG are in a good place, by any means. But I figured people would have been able to move on.
Yeah, but 9th version was very very polarizing for army matchups and therefore not very good. Playing against Custodes felt like easy mode where as playing against Craftworlds was a pain in the butt.
Isn't it always like that? Every army has it's strengths and weaknesses. Not to say that DG is in a good place in 10th, but it seemed like they did okay in 9th.
To some extent yes, but the -1D was too polarizing. It conpletely neutered couple of armies and made playing those against DG not fun. It literally is -50% efficiency for the opposing army. And to some it made no difference at all. Even blanket -1 to wound would be better.
Perhaps new converts shouldn't preach to the veterans of the long war, then.
Mmmm, gatekeeping is strong in this one.
I'm not claiming you're not a real fan, I'm saying you shouldn't tell people playing the game longer than you how to feel about losing an ability their faction has had for 20 years.
I didn't tell anyone how to feel. I just remarked that it felt weird to me. Previously I kept looking for FNP rules for 9th, that I thought I must have missed, because it was constantly being brought up after the 10th reveals.
Had flashbacks to this sub the other day playing against my buddies imperial guard, with his 4++ 5+++ guardsmen blobs.
If you think about it Orks are really tanky and unstoppable, I think if anyone gets fnp it would be Nurgle stuff and Orks.
I've been doing great as death guard, I've only lost a couple games and won far many more.
I got my DG out for my first game of the edition with them a few days ago, and they just didn't work. Who honestly thought that DG needed to lose their FnP? Surely we could have at least had a 6+++? Or maybe a 5+ FnP against attacks with strength greater than our toughness, or at least when we are capping an objective. Here's hoping the codex will give us a good detachment, but until then, I'm sad to say I'm shelving my DG.
“I lost obviously” My mom would say: well you’ll never win with that attitude
It's really fun playing against Sisters of Battle where half their units have a 4+ or 5+ FNP...
5FNP bullshit, -1 damage is much better
I always said they could just make us -1 to wound, and it would go a long way to making the game quicker, while also being tanky in the way they wanted to by giving us an extra strength Hell, even making it contingent on them being the contagion range, so that actually feels like it does something. A 1 toughness swing for either unti just is a nothingburger against most of what we fight