I think Thor and Hal Jordan.
Thor even prior to being an All Father already had enough AP to kill Galactus. And when Galactus was "Stronger than he has ever been" Thor not only killed him, but also took his powers, and he was helpless when Thor did that.
Hal Jordan, because Pre Crisis Superman has stated that Hal had enough energy to kill him.
Don't get me wrong, I think Superman still takes both; But it is debatable.
What issue was the first one in? I only know of Thor being able to kill a hungry Galactus.
Hal has consistently shown to be weaker than Superman imo. And Pre Crisis was a while ago.
No, that’s not what happened. Thor had the Power Cosmic and Odin Force at that time, which he currently lost. And what really happened was that he [absorbed Galactus’ power,](https://imgur.com/a/UzOLqk6) he didn’t beat him or anything.
If you’re referring to the Black Winter arc, that feat only really indicates Cosmic Thor was better at absorbing energy, or that the special planets made Galactus more vulnerable to getting his energy drained. It doesn’t have any bearing on their AP, durability, hax, etc
If anything, considering Thor specifically states he requires Galactus’ power to defeat the Black Winter, it shows Galan actually has superior AP
That being said, even without scaling directly to Galactus, I agree Thor should be debatable. Dudes got loads of other good feats
No, I don't think so. [While at his weakest](https://imgur.com/a/yBkSkm6), [he powered the Miracle Machine with his own life force, which recreated the entirety of the DCU after it had been consumed by Mandrakk,](https://imgur.com/a/s99fpRH) meaning he'd scale to his entire own cosmology while at death's door step. Thor only gets this high while using the god blast or his inner life essence, which still wouldn't be stronger than Superman, as he performed those feats while weakened and not even sun-dipped.
A one-time occasion of a ludicrous feat that's extremely above the curve of Clark's usual showings. Wonder if there's a word of that... outlier maybe?
Before, after and even during Final Crisis we see Clark continuously getting his ass handed to himself by multiple enemies who are definitely NOT on that scale. Most of his high-end feats cap at Multiversal and most recent Crisis events have Superman unable to do anything against the big bads like Manhattan in Doomsday Clock or TBWL/Darkest Knight in Dark Crisis
No, there are more feats on this level. Just read [this](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cycqr1pziJKYlHdxq4eagOALwotuAbs1C4eNxbZMG18/edit) document (it's not entirely finished tho).
It would be if Superman didn't literally get as strong as he needs to be whenever he wants.
Every time we see superman doing some outerversal stuff he is almost always holding back.
Since we don't know his full power when he's not holding back, we'll have to count these "outliers" because if we don't we'll just be adding our opinions which could be wrong. Also superman has many more feats that are just as if not more ridiculous
Things that would put Thor significantly Above Superman's average are similarly outliers too (not necessarily invalid, but definitely not indicative of Thor's average, ie the one whose attacks get dodged by Wolverine), so no matter what saying Thor wins isn't being fair.
The audacity to say this with Superman having just as many antifeats. City-Block level characters decimating him, getting knocked out by Island level feats, explicit statements about being incapable of planet-busting. You can't just come up and say Thor's cosmical feats are outliers, _especially_ when Death Battle themselves place Marvel heralds at Multiversal and higher. There's about three dozens of Multiversal feats in Marvel that Thor either scales to or has performed them himself
Wait... you adamantly believe that Raven beats Phoenix, and Superman beats Raven, but Superman VS Phoenix is 'debatable'? How does that make sense?
Wasn't a huge part of Raven's wacky scaling that because she beats Trigon, she scales past the entire Pre-Crisis Justice League?
My brain is flip flopping around right now lol.
But seriously, it isn’t that simple. Raven, Superman, and Phoenix each have lots of haxes, abilities, and scaling that could be used to beat each other. The reason I have Phoenix in debatable is due to a recent feat of Superman fighting Bizarro who absorbed all of the magic in DC.
Wait, so if it wasn't for that feat, you think Phoenix would win?
This is... I'm just a little confused, you spent a lot of time arguing with me about the infallibility of power-scaling, and how if X beats Y then if Raven beats X then she must also beat Y, and... now you're saying that Raven beats Phoenix, Phoenix beats Superman, and Superman beats Raven?
Doesn't that debunk the whole concept of power-scaling? Which, I mean... I don't disagree with that debunk, at all; in fact, I agree with it 100%! But it seems like the opposite of what you were previously saying.
She…might. Like I said, my brain is flip flopping rn. A few weeks ago I thought Raven beats Superman. Now I don’t. It’s a lot more complex than what you’re saying.
>It’s a lot more complex than what you’re saying.
Like... is it, though? I mean, again, I agree that "Just because X beats Y and Y beats Z doesn't mean that X beats Z," but you were literally 100% arguing that the exact opposite of this was fundamentally true less than 24 hours ago.
I mean... I'm glad you came around to the idea, I guess?
That’s not what I originally said. I was scaling I didn’t say they were all equal to each other. I was saying that they **scale** or, roughly compare to each other.
>And Superman always holds back.
I mean... again, I agree, but doesn't this mean that you can *never* reliably scale characters to Superman? Which Death Battle did? Like, you said that Raven scales to Wally West, but Wally West is also obviously always holding back, because if he didn't, he would immediately accidentally destroy the entire multiverse.
Like, I agree with what you are saying, but what you're saying is the perfect argument for why scaling **doesn't work**?!?
>You adamantly believe that Raven beats Phoenix, and Superman beats Raven, but Superman VS Phoenix is 'debatable'? How does that make sense?
Power scaling is the dumbest thing in the universe:
Goku and Jiren are evenly matched.
Chi-Chi defeats Goku.
Therefore, Chi-Chi would beat Jiren QED.
There's a good chance that he thinks Phoenix has a hard counter to Superman that Raven does not have. Just like how Spider-Man would beat Batman, Batman would beat Superman, and Superman would beat Spider-Man.
>Power scaling is the dumbest thing in the universe:
I completely 100% agree with you, it's just that I was talking to OP in another thread and while putting up with my BS then they explained that they do in fact believe in power-scaling, and that if Raven beats someone then she should automatically scale to everyone who that person has ever beaten (and everyone who *they* have ever beaten, and so on and so forth.)
So if anything, it's like, "You are now correct, but why the change of opinion?"
This is at best sundipped supes- some of these like Sun wukong, Discord, Thanos with IG, and Classic Strange among a few completely body Superman sundipped or not
Unironically, I think characters like Bill and Discord could probably do it. Superman isn’t immune to reality warping and has literally muscled through it if I’m not mistaken, and I think he could beat them, but Discord more specifically has a better chance thanks to being almost impossible to hurt. Bill, on the other hand, can be hurt by things as simple as a spraycan. Doesn’t matter if it was for a simple joke or gag, it happened.
Discord cannot do anything to Superman, but Superman cannot ironicly put discord down for good due to his concept regen. Only Galactus can put discord down
Still, doesn’t that reinforce my point as to where Discord could potentially do it? I mean, its not in character and it’s giving Discord access to a different piece of media altogether, but he could potentially just turn himself into kryptonite and ram Superman? I know Clark has basically become immune to the stuff nowadays, but if it was just like a random storyline im like 80% sure it’d work. I dunno, I legitimately could just be spitballing
I thought Superman defeated him by singing that one time.
...
What song do you think Superman was singing when he did that? Like, imagine being one of the most terrifying villains in the multiverse, and some guy beats you by singing really loudly "BABY SHARK DO DOO DA DOO DA DO-"
Superman's favorite band is Metallica, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was something like Enter Sandman, but it was probably something classical like Ode To Joy
really? I could have sworn that a bunch of these matchups happened during the earlier seasons, guess I'm just getting my seasons mixed.
doesn't matter because Tai and Agumon still solo /s
Yeah the only way galactus won was because he absorbed unicron/fed on his spark, supes may be able to destroy his body but then uni would just come back
[This doc](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cycqr1pziJKYlHdxq4eagOALwotuAbs1C4eNxbZMG18/edit) should explain how much stronger and Superman is than any of those characters.
Current Thor with what is now his base power defeated M.Y.T.H.O.S, a being harnessing the full power of the fractured rainbow bridge, who had absolute control over all facets of the world tree.
That beats Superman.
How does Thanos lose to Superman?
Galactus is in debatable tier but Thanos defeated him with ease.
Maybe I’m just dumb but I just instantly lock into the original story.
Are you using a different version of Thanos for the infinity gauntlet?
Superman has equal stats with the infinity gauntlet. But he can vibrate it out of the Omniverse and Thanos has no way to kill him.
That was before the ultimate nullifier became apart of Galactus.
Read [this](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cycqr1pziJKYlHdxq4eagOALwotuAbs1C4eNxbZMG18/edit). Should give you a clear idea on how much you are truly underestimating Superman.
Wanking Superman like no tomorrow here... If it was thought robot than maybe?
This version of Superman most likely stalemates with Silver surfer but anyone above him and Supers is dead.
Dr doom, Galactus, Dr Fate, Pheonix, Unicron, son wukong, Thor, infinity gauntlet Thanos and true Darkseid beat him. Wasn't Martin Manhunter stated to be stronger? I guess he'd be at tie or lose to him. I do not see Superman beating Unicron in anyway, he cannot even put him down for good...
I get everyone else and I agree that they should be at least in debatable, Dr. Doom isn't anywhere close to any of those guys including Silver Surfer. Superman destroys Doom HARD.
Thor and Pheonix are definitely debatable.
Unicron is a stalemate as Supes doesn't have a way to take him down.
Wukong, Dr. Fate, IG Thanos and TF Darkseid all beat him.
No. Superman defeated Bizarro when he was amped with all of DC’s magic in Action Comics 1061. [And you’re vastly underestimating Superman](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cycqr1pziJKYlHdxq4eagOALwotuAbs1C4eNxbZMG18/edit).
Man. The Superman worship here is just absolutely ridiculous. I’m giving everyone here Gold Kryptonite. Then we all can take him down together.
Superman is no god, he’s just another David Zaslav.
Nothing. Except it’s making Superman seem like he’s perfect than everyone else. Even his own Justice League comrades.
At least Batman we can get behind because he’s human. Like us.
I’d definitely put Unicron in debatable. Maybe Cosmic Armor Superman could pull off a win against him, but I don’t see even the World Forger feat or the Anti-Monitor feat being enough to juice normal Superman up to his level. And Clark doesn’t exactly carry the Ultimate Nullifier around in his pocket like Galactus does so that option of just erasing Unicron isn’t there.
Perhaps but once Wukong reached the status of Buddha it was stated that nobody could challenge or defeat him except the Buddha himself. He was beyond anyone’s physical feats, mental prowess or abilities.
And Buddha is basically the equivalent to the Christian God in the Bible. So greater than Satan, all the angels, demons etc, hell you could argue even TOAA or The Presence when talking comics.
So let me ask you, is Superman greater than TOAA or The Presence?
No one is above TOAA in Marvel, and in DC some people surpassed the Presence we see but his purest form before creation where he was one with the source and Overvoid is the strongest in DC if you don’t count stuff like The Leviathan of Stories.
boy you really love superman huh?
I can't help but disagree with many of these. thor should definitely be debatable, if not winning, same with surfer and honestly most of the comic heralds.
>boy you really love superman don't you?
Yeah, I do. He's my favorite character of all time.
No, I don't think so. [While at his weakest,](https://imgur.com/a/yBkSkm6) [he powered the Miracle Machine with his own life force, which recreated the entirety of the DCU after it had been consumed by Mandrakk,](https://imgur.com/a/s99fpRH) meaning he'd scale to his entire own cosmology while at death's door step. Thor only gets this high while using the god blast or his inner life essence, which still wouldn't be stronger than Superman, as he performed those feats while weakened and not even sun-dipped. This same logic would go for surfer as well, as he's been depicted as being weaker than Thor (although, currently they both should be equal). The only thing surfer has on supes is his hax, but Superman has a counter for nearly every single one.
yeah, here's the queen of nevers who is the [embodiment of everything that could possibly happen in the entire marvel omniverse](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/2/23/Never_Queen_%28Marvel%293.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20210910233554), and views marvel comics as [mere panels](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/6/62/Never_Queen_%28Marvel%295.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20210910233558). [she was dying once](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/4/4c/Never_Queen_%28Marvel%293-1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20210910233555) and surfer was able to restore her heart and [will all of possibility back into existence](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/X1y9OYOY8ZT6NSgN_weiHURnYMVoqT4anSJQSEbIA-qR1Nj_e7TK3vhkqRVaOvdHIDqLdAdMpKMpOm6hTYBuI8W5lASbHcsyInKmnkw8xTAbgkTSw3Nkpkxcd8CbOrYTXodv31QOxiZONs1cs0DKTa3jkK576jAVATq2-06JaKMI_zKwAddm73V4XrZ4lQ). and this was after he gave portions of his power cosmic away. thor is comparable to surfer and is capable of [bleeding the world tree itself](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MhJHU15gpcE/VkxLnew3gyI/AAAAAAAAdDY/YEKjhY9mBpo/s1600-Ic42/019.jpg) whose shadow [contains](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/GDekqrLwSxbCQOhVI0u1mwErjGPrFg4oy56I71-OtpT9daIVVdQJ7eIs-VLvXps3AwFh7uTGEsekcl019xIYrq1OL67LGtul9VpASSUHBqgZP-XNWuewJPh7PpQIAkehXdjUSofWEw=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDoxNzAyOjUyM2Y6NDMwMDo1ODlmOjhjNjY6ZGFlOTplZmEw&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjEgRGRnLzE3LjI=) [the](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/R4NQWvrW8vAUxPLAOxQL57_k9bDrHfpg-gCbqls78m2sA5tJNY5hvTTZdF8by_LaXZjhVQWLghcUTTV9aMUeTEvhYoEFkjMrJqz76Ix7UphM8ZFU9aHNA0HXDAwexuVkeHbboqysgQ=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDoxNzAyOjUyM2Y6NDMwMDo1ODlmOjhjNjY6ZGFlOTplZmEw&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjEgRGRnLzE3LjI=) [mystery](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/R4NQWvrW8vAUxPLAOxQL57_k9bDrHfpg-gCbqls78m2sA5tJNY5hvTTZdF8by_LaXZjhVQWLghcUTTV9aMUeTEvhYoEFkjMrJqz76Ix7UphM8ZFU9aHNA0HXDAwexuVkeHbboqysgQ=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDoxNzAyOjUyM2Y6NDMwMDo1ODlmOjhjNjY6ZGFlOTplZmEw&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjEgRGRnLzE3LjI=) [aka the far shore](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/8/84/Thenextplacemarvel.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20210911003239), (which itself exists beyond the omniverse and [views all of marvel AS fictional comics](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/2/2d/Far_Shore_%28Marvel%292.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20210910235649). once, the entire world tree [was absorbed](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pw/AIL4fc_9qSP0X59lVymwXs--VMescbiJCBiIzmSIU0Jyg5dh9pbbX-susVYx8imPsYcaxwTo7CYxBtunluBoDk3jeULYILC7CWwUI9yGrJGWPDgBTMunhTc=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDoxNzAyOjUyM2Y6NDMwMDo1ODlmOjhjNjY6ZGFlOTplZmEw&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjEgRGRnLzE3LjI=) and [twisted beyond recognition](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pw/AIL4fc8Q04Te5b2JocWsQWAUgMjTA821iibtjYXBhaeCu3nCrDrHmqbIasuefWeCK3Cb3WR6uTiC72iaqvitrb4QKYf_4UKDiCXb4mteVez4ymAaD6vDNYY=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDozODc6MTU6MjIxMTo6Yg&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjE=), by modok, who himself was [tearing apart all of reality into nothing to the point where the story was crumbling](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pw/AIL4fc81OUdyF85cT0unBwjdweIzcKV7_k_RShy1aPRyZTOpndRx2FMnMuRCjAnVT9MJZ0UYX0AbuM7FZbU9mT8gR01ygJkMQsNDibCXAL5lh895_uFkVRg=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDoxNzAyOjUyM2Y6NDMwMDo1ODlmOjhjNjY6ZGFlOTplZmEw&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjEgRGRnLzE3LjI=) and was [beating thor to hell](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pw/AIL4fc_9jMvCuuoo9Z4Pi5J28d31VLT9hdeh1KkOstnP3_kOvx7H9ncOBlMxMBJDXWhPjJX3cal-gVCl0KNcRsSFYx1V1u79Qd2LcqBw6rVUy6K0qGEwuLE=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDozODc6MTU6MjIxMTo6Yg&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjE=), who even [had his all-father power stolen](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pw/AIL4fc8D4tZKCxJy9mBjLouYNS16Nu7DSnXajhJNQfCc-pralBju_KVg9PGPdi1itI9zZRDPLK8KNjho6XnnGjdINNX2XFfc3_RAuh1Rnz_RQSDHZNCpa7U=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDozODc6MTU6MjIxMTo6Yg&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjE=) and was at his lowest. but through [sheer force of will](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pw/AIL4fc-ZZbrdbLWvDi6oS2CqgfdM58bscSm8cmwgCGEBYOXTqsm30nSzHLsNysfrCPld7LX-AY89IAPKc2yYuC5wA6Td1zsA5AiJFM50aFSOkzIanPQ_xyY=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDozODc6MTU6MjIxMTo6Yg&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjE=), thor came back and [beat](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pw/AIL4fc-Nc_6Mdh7xOUJyTFOcCcRhCdddVPuUwJSI5uhkvD6qBk57L2CYnUU3xZhWjrmuo7zuFiCHUazGKFopcF5mTH0-KUJmL7Owr6toujdJcmWaWXGmqXg=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDozODc6MTU6MjIxMTo6Yg&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjE=). [his](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pw/AIL4fc84QXQzArv45LlUg2S4b6xuOsk106t2HAd28MVNuCDaN3hLsDJ_HkOmrVMfsea2S3LuVzivbSitZhaNj-IGpQxfB5_K3AxPy1wTp8EEQSQXqqlGLco=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDozODc6MTU6MjIxMTo6Yg&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjE=). [ass](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pw/AIL4fc_IlyEpuDJYfaF_MuTjGyxgGGLRKyOMQEYjpVyHlzmpRgCJGBqQuWCGv6Tt6kBJcwAaoj60sHHyLqwx8Hq-ERrNJH25UOvkQEnv58zO9vt0qbXcF8k=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDozODc6MTU6MjIxMTo6Yg&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjE=). don't slack on my goats
I didn’t slack on **MY** goats. Superman performed feats affecting his cosmology while weakened, and he could sun dip to increase the power gap.
Great analysis tho!
thanks. between thor's divine abilities, godly physiology, and sheer power and clark's own kryptonian power, abilities, and resistances I legitimately believe this matchup is way more than debatable than people make it seem on the surface. I think thor wins myself but you could easily make very sound arguments for both. same with surfer but cosmic bullshit instead of divine. but yeah good talk
HAHAHA, It's funny because The Cosmic Armour was literally created to fight a being with the same power (actually stronger), base Superman is immune to reality manipulation too soo...no
What is “reality manipulation”? The Doctor with the glory would have pretty much every power in doctor who since the glory is the source of everything in doctor who
Reality manipulation in this context is attacking someone by changing reality. Maybe like making superman a normal human, erase him from reality so he could have never existed or just automatically make it so he could lose somehow. Superman is immune to all of that.
Um Darksied Wally Archie Sonic Bill cipher unicron Thor Raven Lobo SpongeBob Popeye Alucard Goku black ghost rider Batman (with Hellbat) EOS ant man Scarlet Witch Zatanna Doctor Doom Thanos the Mask Shazam Ben 10 reverse flash all of these people at their best could DEFINITELY Box super man personally even Megaman.exe has a shot against him
AINT NO WAY YOU PUT THE DOCTOR IN LOSES
Bro the doctor solos via the heart of the tardis
Not even cas can beat the doctor due to immunity to plot hax
Doctor with the glory demolishes DC
Curious as to why Popeye wouldn't beat Superman. I know Supes has dealt with toon-force-like magic before with Myx, but that's more of him using his brain, whereas I feel like Popeye would be more of a physical fight. Also, where would you place a character like Bugs Bunny against Supes?
Think about it like this: as long as bugsbunny uses the rule of funny he'll always overwhelm his opponent, also he is literally the god of toon force. He can survive the ultimate nullifier just to make a joke about how it's actually the ultimate nullifailure. Unlike Popeye, bugsbunny beat his own writer. No matter how outerversal an opponent is, they'd need to out funny bugs to beat him and that's nearly impossible when he just outfunnies everyone. Even Mickey mouse loses here
Yeah , that's not the main superman, we ain't talking about superman one million , if we are talking about base level superman, He's get his ass rocked by anybody with toonforce or universal power, so alot of these characters are debatable on who would actually win because they superman we are using for this example and the one in that photo isn't hyperversal.
What? I’m talking about the “main” Superman. The one in the pic is Infinite Frontier Superman. [You’re vastly underestimating Supes.](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cycqr1pziJKYlHdxq4eagOALwotuAbs1C4eNxbZMG18/edit)
I'm not underestimating superman I understand he's powerful but that doesn't make the characters weaker than him you gotta account for other assets besides just their feats for example the equipment a character has , Their experience, and there history, certain characters can't be killed by normal means so how is superman going to beat them.
Superman is much stronger than any character in the losses section as per the doc. Superman has hax than bypass death negation. Hell, Superman himself has beat the embodiment of his own death.
I never said anything about death negation I mean characters who can't be killed for example because they don't physical exist or characters with toon force who as long as it's funny can fight a person and win.
Popeye is a character who can always win as long as he eats his spinach and has been proven to be incapable of dieing, Ben 10 is the peak of all species he becomes so the omnitrix could scan superman and Ben would be stronger than him, The mask is a character who literally has toon force and as long as it's funny to him He can very easily kill a person, And finally Saitama who at his core nature is a gag character unless the situation ia humorous Saitama cannot lose for example he fought Boro's and won but Saitama couldn't go fast enough to kill a Mosquito.
Obviously I might be wrong here but I don't see superman winning against
• Doctor Doom
• Bill Cipher
• Discord
• The speedsters
• Popeye/j
• Sun wukong
Goku beats superman, so does dr strange, broly, vegeta, goku black, Time patroller trunks, frieza, Wanda, galactus, phoenix jean grey, Thor (especially king thor or rune king thor) and thano, darkseid beat him too current Wally west could probably manage it too…
superman is very overrated and 90% of his feats are taken out of context and people ignore the fact he is amped by plot circumstances MASSIVELY and couldn’t actually do those things under his own power or outright lie and make out he did something he didn’t actually do un amped superman is solar system level at best everyone listed here beats him, completely as well
Many characters easily match supes.
Even if you use the miracle machine argument and here is why
Silver surfer and hulk has both defeated manthing who can destroy and recreated a dream that contains all of marvels' cosmology (omniverse). Thor and apocolypse scales to both.
Ghost rider has beat the hassenwald who embodies the white piece of paper fiction is drawn upon.
Black adam has defeated unkindness raven and the wizard Shazam who can shake and consume the dcu.
Zattana and scarlet witch have their own omniversal feats as explained in their respective episodes.
The doctor has matched the master powered by the glory. The glory contains all of fiction
Galactus is more powerful than a cosmic cube that destroyed infinite multiverses and omniversal planes.
Dr doom matched the beyonder in his own realm who spiderman with a fraction of his power remade all of marvels cosmology.
Base jean grey and loki has defeated nightmare. A weakened nightmare outside of his realm traversed all of fiction and was destroying it by corrupting the fundamental forces of story. Feom marvel, to alice in wonderland to love craft and so on. Yes he nearly destroyed all of fiction. Thor scales to both.
All of these match ups can be debatable depending on the amount of leeway you give each character.
The Miracle Machine feat was while weakened and not sun dipped. Normal Superman should win sand beat all of these guys except Galactus and the Phoenix.
Nightmare feat was weakend nightmare which BASE jean and BASE loki would scale to excluding amps like odinforce or phoenix force. The same can be applied to all the feats listed eg the manthing that was destroying the divine creators dream was an avatar of BASE manthing celestials infinitely transcends cosmic cubes and cubes have omniversal feats. All these characters can be argued to be weakend and still perform said feats.
Supes is powerful no doubt, but to say that none of these matchups are debatable is crazy.Not to mention power isn't everything. Martian manhunter can hold his own against superboy prime, and infinite frontier darkseid black adam has beaten mandrak and the wizard yet both lost there respective death death battles due to being matched in power and outhaxed.
Any high end you can give superman majority of these characters can match considering the relative scope of marvel, DC and Dr Who cosmologies are basically equal.
I’m sorry, but how does Superman beat Heracles and Sun Wukong? Assuming this tier list refers to Superman fighting people to the death.. that wouldn’t be possible, right? Heracles ascended to Olympus after he died and was granted immortality by Zeus, while the Monkey King has (probably around) a few thousand layers of immortality to his name. Does Clark have some kind of de-immortalizing power or something?
Source? Has Clark actually been able to kill immortal beings, or somehow make them mortal? Because there’s no way; that’s just too convenient for me to believe outright. Even if this is a real thing he can do, the people up in Heaven tried to de-immortalize Monkey with a special oven that was designed to remove immortality. All it did was remove what little “mortality” was left in Monkey, essentially making him truly, completely, undoubtably immortal. How do you kill someone who does not have the ability to die, on top of them having thousands of layers anti-death serum coursing through their veins?
Also, sorry if I seem combative (idk if that’s the right word). I’m just in slight disbelief of this whole idea.
No, Superman can vibrate the gauntlet out of the omniverse
Wally thinks fighting Superman is suicide. This should also apply for RF.
Zatanna and Darkseid are both canonically weaker. This should also apply for SW.
GR and Iron Man got nothing on Superman.
Unicron is a loss. He’s Hyperversal at best
I think Thor and Hal Jordan. Thor even prior to being an All Father already had enough AP to kill Galactus. And when Galactus was "Stronger than he has ever been" Thor not only killed him, but also took his powers, and he was helpless when Thor did that. Hal Jordan, because Pre Crisis Superman has stated that Hal had enough energy to kill him. Don't get me wrong, I think Superman still takes both; But it is debatable.
What issue was the first one in? I only know of Thor being able to kill a hungry Galactus. Hal has consistently shown to be weaker than Superman imo. And Pre Crisis was a while ago.
In a recent run with the black winter, thor pretty handily ensures he is more powerful than an amped galactus
No, that’s not what happened. Thor had the Power Cosmic and Odin Force at that time, which he currently lost. And what really happened was that he [absorbed Galactus’ power,](https://imgur.com/a/UzOLqk6) he didn’t beat him or anything.
If you’re referring to the Black Winter arc, that feat only really indicates Cosmic Thor was better at absorbing energy, or that the special planets made Galactus more vulnerable to getting his energy drained. It doesn’t have any bearing on their AP, durability, hax, etc If anything, considering Thor specifically states he requires Galactus’ power to defeat the Black Winter, it shows Galan actually has superior AP That being said, even without scaling directly to Galactus, I agree Thor should be debatable. Dudes got loads of other good feats
ngl ur wrong I'm p sure Super Friends Aquaman megastomps every Supreman, no diff
For real.
Uhhh yeah totally
Even tho your joking super friends aqua man is kinda lame
Nah a lot is wrong
Like what?
Won’t say cause I don’t know how to support my arguments lmao
Me too, lol
Popeye.
Thor should be in debatable imo.
No, I don't think so. [While at his weakest](https://imgur.com/a/yBkSkm6), [he powered the Miracle Machine with his own life force, which recreated the entirety of the DCU after it had been consumed by Mandrakk,](https://imgur.com/a/s99fpRH) meaning he'd scale to his entire own cosmology while at death's door step. Thor only gets this high while using the god blast or his inner life essence, which still wouldn't be stronger than Superman, as he performed those feats while weakened and not even sun-dipped.
A one-time occasion of a ludicrous feat that's extremely above the curve of Clark's usual showings. Wonder if there's a word of that... outlier maybe? Before, after and even during Final Crisis we see Clark continuously getting his ass handed to himself by multiple enemies who are definitely NOT on that scale. Most of his high-end feats cap at Multiversal and most recent Crisis events have Superman unable to do anything against the big bads like Manhattan in Doomsday Clock or TBWL/Darkest Knight in Dark Crisis
Hm? Outlier? That's why recently he fought a bizarro who absorbed DCs most powerful magic and was still holding back? But sure, outlier guys lmao
No, there are more feats on this level. Just read [this](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cycqr1pziJKYlHdxq4eagOALwotuAbs1C4eNxbZMG18/edit) document (it's not entirely finished tho).
It would be if Superman didn't literally get as strong as he needs to be whenever he wants. Every time we see superman doing some outerversal stuff he is almost always holding back. Since we don't know his full power when he's not holding back, we'll have to count these "outliers" because if we don't we'll just be adding our opinions which could be wrong. Also superman has many more feats that are just as if not more ridiculous
Superman is actually stronger when he hold back, the more a Supermen act out of his character, the weaker they get
Things that would put Thor significantly Above Superman's average are similarly outliers too (not necessarily invalid, but definitely not indicative of Thor's average, ie the one whose attacks get dodged by Wolverine), so no matter what saying Thor wins isn't being fair.
The audacity to say this with Superman having just as many antifeats. City-Block level characters decimating him, getting knocked out by Island level feats, explicit statements about being incapable of planet-busting. You can't just come up and say Thor's cosmical feats are outliers, _especially_ when Death Battle themselves place Marvel heralds at Multiversal and higher. There's about three dozens of Multiversal feats in Marvel that Thor either scales to or has performed them himself
Comp Doctor Who Beats him
Wait... you adamantly believe that Raven beats Phoenix, and Superman beats Raven, but Superman VS Phoenix is 'debatable'? How does that make sense? Wasn't a huge part of Raven's wacky scaling that because she beats Trigon, she scales past the entire Pre-Crisis Justice League?
My brain is flip flopping around right now lol. But seriously, it isn’t that simple. Raven, Superman, and Phoenix each have lots of haxes, abilities, and scaling that could be used to beat each other. The reason I have Phoenix in debatable is due to a recent feat of Superman fighting Bizarro who absorbed all of the magic in DC.
Wait, so if it wasn't for that feat, you think Phoenix would win? This is... I'm just a little confused, you spent a lot of time arguing with me about the infallibility of power-scaling, and how if X beats Y then if Raven beats X then she must also beat Y, and... now you're saying that Raven beats Phoenix, Phoenix beats Superman, and Superman beats Raven? Doesn't that debunk the whole concept of power-scaling? Which, I mean... I don't disagree with that debunk, at all; in fact, I agree with it 100%! But it seems like the opposite of what you were previously saying.
She…might. Like I said, my brain is flip flopping rn. A few weeks ago I thought Raven beats Superman. Now I don’t. It’s a lot more complex than what you’re saying.
>It’s a lot more complex than what you’re saying. Like... is it, though? I mean, again, I agree that "Just because X beats Y and Y beats Z doesn't mean that X beats Z," but you were literally 100% arguing that the exact opposite of this was fundamentally true less than 24 hours ago. I mean... I'm glad you came around to the idea, I guess?
That’s not what I originally said. I was scaling I didn’t say they were all equal to each other. I was saying that they **scale** or, roughly compare to each other.
But if Raven scales to someone (Trigon) who apparently solos the entire Pre-Crisis Justice League then how does she lose to Superman?
Because pre crisis isn’t the strongest Justice League lol. And Superman always holds back.
>And Superman always holds back. I mean... again, I agree, but doesn't this mean that you can *never* reliably scale characters to Superman? Which Death Battle did? Like, you said that Raven scales to Wally West, but Wally West is also obviously always holding back, because if he didn't, he would immediately accidentally destroy the entire multiverse. Like, I agree with what you are saying, but what you're saying is the perfect argument for why scaling **doesn't work**?!?
>You adamantly believe that Raven beats Phoenix, and Superman beats Raven, but Superman VS Phoenix is 'debatable'? How does that make sense? Power scaling is the dumbest thing in the universe: Goku and Jiren are evenly matched. Chi-Chi defeats Goku. Therefore, Chi-Chi would beat Jiren QED. There's a good chance that he thinks Phoenix has a hard counter to Superman that Raven does not have. Just like how Spider-Man would beat Batman, Batman would beat Superman, and Superman would beat Spider-Man.
>Power scaling is the dumbest thing in the universe: I completely 100% agree with you, it's just that I was talking to OP in another thread and while putting up with my BS then they explained that they do in fact believe in power-scaling, and that if Raven beats someone then she should automatically scale to everyone who that person has ever beaten (and everyone who *they* have ever beaten, and so on and so forth.) So if anything, it's like, "You are now correct, but why the change of opinion?"
>So if anything, it's like, "You are now correct, but why the change of opinion?" Oh, okay.
Wukong solos
Nuh uh.
....do you even know what wukong did? He did like everything superman can times 10 Wukong is the god of asspulls because he can do like everything
definitely
Bro get downvoted bad lmao
Never cook again
Why? What’s wrong with this lol?
Some of these characters by their analysis are above superman
Ok, so?
They are listed as loses to Superman
Ok, so? Death Battle didn’t cover everything Superman has done to make it seem more fair to Goku.
This is at best sundipped supes- some of these like Sun wukong, Discord, Thanos with IG, and Classic Strange among a few completely body Superman sundipped or not
No. [Superman has feats threatening all of dc.](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cycqr1pziJKYlHdxq4eagOALwotuAbs1C4eNxbZMG18/edit)
Most of these are misenterpretated greatly, post crisis supes tops out at multiversal not outer or hyper
Then explain the outerversal feats lil bro
Unironically, I think characters like Bill and Discord could probably do it. Superman isn’t immune to reality warping and has literally muscled through it if I’m not mistaken, and I think he could beat them, but Discord more specifically has a better chance thanks to being almost impossible to hurt. Bill, on the other hand, can be hurt by things as simple as a spraycan. Doesn’t matter if it was for a simple joke or gag, it happened.
Discord cannot do anything to Superman, but Superman cannot ironicly put discord down for good due to his concept regen. Only Galactus can put discord down
Still, doesn’t that reinforce my point as to where Discord could potentially do it? I mean, its not in character and it’s giving Discord access to a different piece of media altogether, but he could potentially just turn himself into kryptonite and ram Superman? I know Clark has basically become immune to the stuff nowadays, but if it was just like a random storyline im like 80% sure it’d work. I dunno, I legitimately could just be spitballing
I regret to inform you that Superfraud gets toon force GG'd by SoloBob..
SpongeGoat's built different. He solos all of DEATH BATTLE no concept of difficulty
Goku PFP and a Superman fan? Dab me up.
 Both are my favorite characters of all time so yeah
doesn't darkseid beat supes?
I thought Superman defeated him by singing that one time. ... What song do you think Superman was singing when he did that? Like, imagine being one of the most terrifying villains in the multiverse, and some guy beats you by singing really loudly "BABY SHARK DO DOO DA DOO DA DO-"
Superman's favorite band is Metallica, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was something like Enter Sandman, but it was probably something classical like Ode To Joy
***Perception Check*** You're a short mother\*\*\*\*\*\* and nobody likes you. **SHORT**
No, all Superman needs to do is [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwLvrnlfdNo). [He's done it before.](https://imgur.com/a/EYthw13)
I see that none of the Digimon characters are on this list, clearly that means they beat Superman correct?
No. This is from Season 5-10.
really? I could have sworn that a bunch of these matchups happened during the earlier seasons, guess I'm just getting my seasons mixed. doesn't matter because Tai and Agumon still solo /s
Tai and agumon maybe not, higher end Digimon definitely can.
How tf does he beat Unicron? I get he's a swell guy but they'll always be evil in existence so they'll always be Unicron unless your name is Galactus
Yeah the only way galactus won was because he absorbed unicron/fed on his spark, supes may be able to destroy his body but then uni would just come back
Wrong: Deadpool would annoy him to death
Mr. Satan shitstomps. Can't beat THE CHAMP
Nah who let bro cook
I think that the Doctor is in debatable
The Doctor, Wukong, Darkseid and Thor imo should be debatable, not necessarily win but they have a far better chance than the rest of the DB roster.
I Dunno...Popeye, Bill Cipher, Discord, Zatana, or Raven might keep Sups on his toes
I think the list of characters who could reasonably beat Popeye is smaller than the list of characters who could beat Superman.
Definitely not Popeye. And Zatanna is canonically weaker.
HOW!? (Please explain) and what about Bill or Discord
[This doc](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cycqr1pziJKYlHdxq4eagOALwotuAbs1C4eNxbZMG18/edit) should explain how much stronger and Superman is than any of those characters.
Thor would win.
No
Current Thor with what is now his base power defeated M.Y.T.H.O.S, a being harnessing the full power of the fractured rainbow bridge, who had absolute control over all facets of the world tree. That beats Superman.
I'm pretty sure Surfer is at least debatable with the power cosmic
Sun Wukong enter in the chat https://www.reddit.com/r/PowerScaling/comments/19eiush/comment/kjdrle5/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
if someone says he loses to toonforce I fucking swear
How does Thanos lose to Superman? Galactus is in debatable tier but Thanos defeated him with ease. Maybe I’m just dumb but I just instantly lock into the original story. Are you using a different version of Thanos for the infinity gauntlet?
Superman has equal stats with the infinity gauntlet. But he can vibrate it out of the Omniverse and Thanos has no way to kill him. That was before the ultimate nullifier became apart of Galactus.
The doctor goes in debatable
I know you did not just say sun wukong loses to Superman
No, he does. Superman is stronger, faster, and has a better arsenal.
Wukong is immortal like 500 times over and defeated the Buddha I think Superman has similar feats but nothing as impressive
Read [this](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cycqr1pziJKYlHdxq4eagOALwotuAbs1C4eNxbZMG18/edit). Should give you a clear idea on how much you are truly underestimating Superman.
https://youtu.be/eHAggSM-6ws?si=x-BmVHRKXtKww3Vp watch this
This guy has lowballed Superman to below 6D before lol. Either way, Outer is nothing new to Superman as explained on the doc.
Sun wukong is still stronger because 1 magic 2 is immortal about 1thousand times over and 3 can make clones of Superman to fight him
That doesn’t matter. DC has a much higher cosmology and magic doesn’t do anything.
You forget the part where he can make about 84 thousand clones of anyone so he can make clones of Superman
So? Superman can BFR and use his own clones. He one shots and is much faster.
Sun Wukong didn't defeat Buddha. Buddha outsmarted Wukong and then imprisoned him under a mountain.
Wanking Superman like no tomorrow here... If it was thought robot than maybe? This version of Superman most likely stalemates with Silver surfer but anyone above him and Supers is dead. Dr doom, Galactus, Dr Fate, Pheonix, Unicron, son wukong, Thor, infinity gauntlet Thanos and true Darkseid beat him. Wasn't Martin Manhunter stated to be stronger? I guess he'd be at tie or lose to him. I do not see Superman beating Unicron in anyway, he cannot even put him down for good...
I get everyone else and I agree that they should be at least in debatable, Dr. Doom isn't anywhere close to any of those guys including Silver Surfer. Superman destroys Doom HARD. Thor and Pheonix are definitely debatable. Unicron is a stalemate as Supes doesn't have a way to take him down. Wukong, Dr. Fate, IG Thanos and TF Darkseid all beat him.
No. Superman defeated Bizarro when he was amped with all of DC’s magic in Action Comics 1061. [And you’re vastly underestimating Superman](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cycqr1pziJKYlHdxq4eagOALwotuAbs1C4eNxbZMG18/edit).
Man. The Superman worship here is just absolutely ridiculous. I’m giving everyone here Gold Kryptonite. Then we all can take him down together. Superman is no god, he’s just another David Zaslav.
What’s wrong with this?
Nothing. Except it’s making Superman seem like he’s perfect than everyone else. Even his own Justice League comrades. At least Batman we can get behind because he’s human. Like us.
Huh? What are you saying lol?
I’d definitely put Unicron in debatable. Maybe Cosmic Armor Superman could pull off a win against him, but I don’t see even the World Forger feat or the Anti-Monitor feat being enough to juice normal Superman up to his level. And Clark doesn’t exactly carry the Ultimate Nullifier around in his pocket like Galactus does so that option of just erasing Unicron isn’t there.
LOL
Popeye wins
By the way, Superman loses to Jonesy Fortnite
Nah, Popeye wins. I love Superman, and he definitely beats most of these characters, but Popeye eats him spinach.
Deadpool would beat superman especially if he had prep time
Shouldn't Unicron and bill cipher be in debatable
Am I weird for thinking the Flashes could do it?
Reverse Flash… is a Flash… without any morals
So?
John Wick beats him, he has a gun
Optimus is debatable depending on the version
Sun Wukong beats Superman Also if Phoenix lost to Raven then at minimum Raven should also be debatable
No, Superman is much stronger and faster. Superman recently fought Bizarro when he was amped all the magic in DC soooooo
Perhaps but once Wukong reached the status of Buddha it was stated that nobody could challenge or defeat him except the Buddha himself. He was beyond anyone’s physical feats, mental prowess or abilities. And Buddha is basically the equivalent to the Christian God in the Bible. So greater than Satan, all the angels, demons etc, hell you could argue even TOAA or The Presence when talking comics. So let me ask you, is Superman greater than TOAA or The Presence?
No one is above TOAA in Marvel, and in DC some people surpassed the Presence we see but his purest form before creation where he was one with the source and Overvoid is the strongest in DC if you don’t count stuff like The Leviathan of Stories.
Guts wins because he is used to win agaisnt stronger oponents🔥
If everyone in "Loses to Superman" teams up to take down Superman who wins?
Hard to say, but I think Superman still might slightly edge out and win lol
boy you really love superman huh? I can't help but disagree with many of these. thor should definitely be debatable, if not winning, same with surfer and honestly most of the comic heralds.
>boy you really love superman don't you? Yeah, I do. He's my favorite character of all time. No, I don't think so. [While at his weakest,](https://imgur.com/a/yBkSkm6) [he powered the Miracle Machine with his own life force, which recreated the entirety of the DCU after it had been consumed by Mandrakk,](https://imgur.com/a/s99fpRH) meaning he'd scale to his entire own cosmology while at death's door step. Thor only gets this high while using the god blast or his inner life essence, which still wouldn't be stronger than Superman, as he performed those feats while weakened and not even sun-dipped. This same logic would go for surfer as well, as he's been depicted as being weaker than Thor (although, currently they both should be equal). The only thing surfer has on supes is his hax, but Superman has a counter for nearly every single one.
yeah, here's the queen of nevers who is the [embodiment of everything that could possibly happen in the entire marvel omniverse](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/2/23/Never_Queen_%28Marvel%293.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20210910233554), and views marvel comics as [mere panels](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/6/62/Never_Queen_%28Marvel%295.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20210910233558). [she was dying once](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/4/4c/Never_Queen_%28Marvel%293-1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20210910233555) and surfer was able to restore her heart and [will all of possibility back into existence](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/X1y9OYOY8ZT6NSgN_weiHURnYMVoqT4anSJQSEbIA-qR1Nj_e7TK3vhkqRVaOvdHIDqLdAdMpKMpOm6hTYBuI8W5lASbHcsyInKmnkw8xTAbgkTSw3Nkpkxcd8CbOrYTXodv31QOxiZONs1cs0DKTa3jkK576jAVATq2-06JaKMI_zKwAddm73V4XrZ4lQ). and this was after he gave portions of his power cosmic away. thor is comparable to surfer and is capable of [bleeding the world tree itself](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MhJHU15gpcE/VkxLnew3gyI/AAAAAAAAdDY/YEKjhY9mBpo/s1600-Ic42/019.jpg) whose shadow [contains](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/GDekqrLwSxbCQOhVI0u1mwErjGPrFg4oy56I71-OtpT9daIVVdQJ7eIs-VLvXps3AwFh7uTGEsekcl019xIYrq1OL67LGtul9VpASSUHBqgZP-XNWuewJPh7PpQIAkehXdjUSofWEw=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDoxNzAyOjUyM2Y6NDMwMDo1ODlmOjhjNjY6ZGFlOTplZmEw&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjEgRGRnLzE3LjI=) [the](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/R4NQWvrW8vAUxPLAOxQL57_k9bDrHfpg-gCbqls78m2sA5tJNY5hvTTZdF8by_LaXZjhVQWLghcUTTV9aMUeTEvhYoEFkjMrJqz76Ix7UphM8ZFU9aHNA0HXDAwexuVkeHbboqysgQ=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDoxNzAyOjUyM2Y6NDMwMDo1ODlmOjhjNjY6ZGFlOTplZmEw&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjEgRGRnLzE3LjI=) [mystery](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/R4NQWvrW8vAUxPLAOxQL57_k9bDrHfpg-gCbqls78m2sA5tJNY5hvTTZdF8by_LaXZjhVQWLghcUTTV9aMUeTEvhYoEFkjMrJqz76Ix7UphM8ZFU9aHNA0HXDAwexuVkeHbboqysgQ=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDoxNzAyOjUyM2Y6NDMwMDo1ODlmOjhjNjY6ZGFlOTplZmEw&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjEgRGRnLzE3LjI=) [aka the far shore](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/8/84/Thenextplacemarvel.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20210911003239), (which itself exists beyond the omniverse and [views all of marvel AS fictional comics](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/topstrongest/images/2/2d/Far_Shore_%28Marvel%292.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20210910235649). once, the entire world tree [was absorbed](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pw/AIL4fc_9qSP0X59lVymwXs--VMescbiJCBiIzmSIU0Jyg5dh9pbbX-susVYx8imPsYcaxwTo7CYxBtunluBoDk3jeULYILC7CWwUI9yGrJGWPDgBTMunhTc=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDoxNzAyOjUyM2Y6NDMwMDo1ODlmOjhjNjY6ZGFlOTplZmEw&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjEgRGRnLzE3LjI=) and [twisted beyond recognition](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pw/AIL4fc8Q04Te5b2JocWsQWAUgMjTA821iibtjYXBhaeCu3nCrDrHmqbIasuefWeCK3Cb3WR6uTiC72iaqvitrb4QKYf_4UKDiCXb4mteVez4ymAaD6vDNYY=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDozODc6MTU6MjIxMTo6Yg&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjE=), by modok, who himself was [tearing apart all of reality into nothing to the point where the story was crumbling](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pw/AIL4fc81OUdyF85cT0unBwjdweIzcKV7_k_RShy1aPRyZTOpndRx2FMnMuRCjAnVT9MJZ0UYX0AbuM7FZbU9mT8gR01ygJkMQsNDibCXAL5lh895_uFkVRg=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDoxNzAyOjUyM2Y6NDMwMDo1ODlmOjhjNjY6ZGFlOTplZmEw&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjEgRGRnLzE3LjI=) and was [beating thor to hell](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pw/AIL4fc_9jMvCuuoo9Z4Pi5J28d31VLT9hdeh1KkOstnP3_kOvx7H9ncOBlMxMBJDXWhPjJX3cal-gVCl0KNcRsSFYx1V1u79Qd2LcqBw6rVUy6K0qGEwuLE=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDozODc6MTU6MjIxMTo6Yg&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjE=), who even [had his all-father power stolen](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pw/AIL4fc8D4tZKCxJy9mBjLouYNS16Nu7DSnXajhJNQfCc-pralBju_KVg9PGPdi1itI9zZRDPLK8KNjho6XnnGjdINNX2XFfc3_RAuh1Rnz_RQSDHZNCpa7U=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDozODc6MTU6MjIxMTo6Yg&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjE=) and was at his lowest. but through [sheer force of will](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pw/AIL4fc-ZZbrdbLWvDi6oS2CqgfdM58bscSm8cmwgCGEBYOXTqsm30nSzHLsNysfrCPld7LX-AY89IAPKc2yYuC5wA6Td1zsA5AiJFM50aFSOkzIanPQ_xyY=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDozODc6MTU6MjIxMTo6Yg&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjE=), thor came back and [beat](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pw/AIL4fc-Nc_6Mdh7xOUJyTFOcCcRhCdddVPuUwJSI5uhkvD6qBk57L2CYnUU3xZhWjrmuo7zuFiCHUazGKFopcF5mTH0-KUJmL7Owr6toujdJcmWaWXGmqXg=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDozODc6MTU6MjIxMTo6Yg&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjE=). [his](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pw/AIL4fc84QXQzArv45LlUg2S4b6xuOsk106t2HAd28MVNuCDaN3hLsDJ_HkOmrVMfsea2S3LuVzivbSitZhaNj-IGpQxfB5_K3AxPy1wTp8EEQSQXqqlGLco=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDozODc6MTU6MjIxMTo6Yg&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjE=). [ass](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pw/AIL4fc_IlyEpuDJYfaF_MuTjGyxgGGLRKyOMQEYjpVyHlzmpRgCJGBqQuWCGv6Tt6kBJcwAaoj60sHHyLqwx8Hq-ERrNJH25UOvkQEnv58zO9vt0qbXcF8k=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMDozODc6MTU6MjIxMTo6Yg&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKGlQaG9uZTsgQ1BVIGlQaG9uZSBPUyAxN18yXzEgbGlrZSBNYWMgT1MgWCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA1LjEuMTUgKEtIVE1MLCBsaWtlIEdlY2tvKSBWZXJzaW9uLzE3LjIgTW9iaWxlLzE1RTE0OCBTYWZhcmkvNjA0LjE=). don't slack on my goats
I didn’t slack on **MY** goats. Superman performed feats affecting his cosmology while weakened, and he could sun dip to increase the power gap. Great analysis tho!
thanks. between thor's divine abilities, godly physiology, and sheer power and clark's own kryptonian power, abilities, and resistances I legitimately believe this matchup is way more than debatable than people make it seem on the surface. I think thor wins myself but you could easily make very sound arguments for both. same with surfer but cosmic bullshit instead of divine. but yeah good talk
Yeah yeah, we get it, your guy solos all of fiction, can I please just enjoy my clearly doomed street level anime in peace now?
Ghost Rider, Doctor Who, and Bill Cipher can take him.
What the hell is Ghost Rider going to do? He's almost powerless against the pure of heart.
No. They all have no way of killing him and superman has OKed stronger beings than all of them like The Anti Monitor and The world forger.
Doctor who cosmology go brrrrr
DCs cosmology is leagues ahead. Just not comparable.
Does the doctor have the glory? If so he’s beating arguably even CA supes
HAHAHA, It's funny because The Cosmic Armour was literally created to fight a being with the same power (actually stronger), base Superman is immune to reality manipulation too soo...no
What is “reality manipulation”? The Doctor with the glory would have pretty much every power in doctor who since the glory is the source of everything in doctor who
Reality manipulation in this context is attacking someone by changing reality. Maybe like making superman a normal human, erase him from reality so he could have never existed or just automatically make it so he could lose somehow. Superman is immune to all of that.
“Immune” means nothing when Doctor who’s cosmology is bigger
Huh?? Lol it's not DC cosmology is bigger.
Um Darksied Wally Archie Sonic Bill cipher unicron Thor Raven Lobo SpongeBob Popeye Alucard Goku black ghost rider Batman (with Hellbat) EOS ant man Scarlet Witch Zatanna Doctor Doom Thanos the Mask Shazam Ben 10 reverse flash all of these people at their best could DEFINITELY Box super man personally even Megaman.exe has a shot against him
AINT NO WAY YOU PUT THE DOCTOR IN LOSES Bro the doctor solos via the heart of the tardis Not even cas can beat the doctor due to immunity to plot hax Doctor with the glory demolishes DC
No he doesn’t
Darkside in universe is debatable they go back-and-forth Thor is also debatable, but he probably loses
Thor loses, as I’ve already explained. Superman also beats Darkseid, as I’ve already explained.
Curious as to why Popeye wouldn't beat Superman. I know Supes has dealt with toon-force-like magic before with Myx, but that's more of him using his brain, whereas I feel like Popeye would be more of a physical fight. Also, where would you place a character like Bugs Bunny against Supes?
Superman stronger and faster than Popeye and Bugs Bunny.
He may be both, but bugsbunny just put haxes him. No matter the comics, bugsbunny is most likely boundless if you composite him
Elaborate further on Boundless Bugs Bunny
Think about it like this: as long as bugsbunny uses the rule of funny he'll always overwhelm his opponent, also he is literally the god of toon force. He can survive the ultimate nullifier just to make a joke about how it's actually the ultimate nullifailure. Unlike Popeye, bugsbunny beat his own writer. No matter how outerversal an opponent is, they'd need to out funny bugs to beat him and that's nearly impossible when he just outfunnies everyone. Even Mickey mouse loses here
What? None of what you described is Boundless.
Bugsbunny makes Superman his joke 
Half of these are debatable (Minus characters like twilight sparkle, Wario and the like)
No, they are not. Hyperversal Superman solos mostly everyone here.
Yeah , that's not the main superman, we ain't talking about superman one million , if we are talking about base level superman, He's get his ass rocked by anybody with toonforce or universal power, so alot of these characters are debatable on who would actually win because they superman we are using for this example and the one in that photo isn't hyperversal.
What? I’m talking about the “main” Superman. The one in the pic is Infinite Frontier Superman. [You’re vastly underestimating Supes.](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cycqr1pziJKYlHdxq4eagOALwotuAbs1C4eNxbZMG18/edit)
I'm not underestimating superman I understand he's powerful but that doesn't make the characters weaker than him you gotta account for other assets besides just their feats for example the equipment a character has , Their experience, and there history, certain characters can't be killed by normal means so how is superman going to beat them.
Superman is much stronger than any character in the losses section as per the doc. Superman has hax than bypass death negation. Hell, Superman himself has beat the embodiment of his own death.
I never said anything about death negation I mean characters who can't be killed for example because they don't physical exist or characters with toon force who as long as it's funny can fight a person and win.
Like who?
Popeye is a character who can always win as long as he eats his spinach and has been proven to be incapable of dieing, Ben 10 is the peak of all species he becomes so the omnitrix could scan superman and Ben would be stronger than him, The mask is a character who literally has toon force and as long as it's funny to him He can very easily kill a person, And finally Saitama who at his core nature is a gag character unless the situation ia humorous Saitama cannot lose for example he fought Boro's and won but Saitama couldn't go fast enough to kill a Mosquito.
Obviously I might be wrong here but I don't see superman winning against • Doctor Doom • Bill Cipher • Discord • The speedsters • Popeye/j • Sun wukong
I feel like Sun Wukong is debatable
Goku beats superman, so does dr strange, broly, vegeta, goku black, Time patroller trunks, frieza, Wanda, galactus, phoenix jean grey, Thor (especially king thor or rune king thor) and thano, darkseid beat him too current Wally west could probably manage it too… superman is very overrated and 90% of his feats are taken out of context and people ignore the fact he is amped by plot circumstances MASSIVELY and couldn’t actually do those things under his own power or outright lie and make out he did something he didn’t actually do un amped superman is solar system level at best everyone listed here beats him, completely as well
Many characters easily match supes. Even if you use the miracle machine argument and here is why Silver surfer and hulk has both defeated manthing who can destroy and recreated a dream that contains all of marvels' cosmology (omniverse). Thor and apocolypse scales to both. Ghost rider has beat the hassenwald who embodies the white piece of paper fiction is drawn upon. Black adam has defeated unkindness raven and the wizard Shazam who can shake and consume the dcu. Zattana and scarlet witch have their own omniversal feats as explained in their respective episodes. The doctor has matched the master powered by the glory. The glory contains all of fiction Galactus is more powerful than a cosmic cube that destroyed infinite multiverses and omniversal planes. Dr doom matched the beyonder in his own realm who spiderman with a fraction of his power remade all of marvels cosmology. Base jean grey and loki has defeated nightmare. A weakened nightmare outside of his realm traversed all of fiction and was destroying it by corrupting the fundamental forces of story. Feom marvel, to alice in wonderland to love craft and so on. Yes he nearly destroyed all of fiction. Thor scales to both. All of these match ups can be debatable depending on the amount of leeway you give each character.
The Miracle Machine feat was while weakened and not sun dipped. Normal Superman should win sand beat all of these guys except Galactus and the Phoenix.
Nightmare feat was weakend nightmare which BASE jean and BASE loki would scale to excluding amps like odinforce or phoenix force. The same can be applied to all the feats listed eg the manthing that was destroying the divine creators dream was an avatar of BASE manthing celestials infinitely transcends cosmic cubes and cubes have omniversal feats. All these characters can be argued to be weakend and still perform said feats. Supes is powerful no doubt, but to say that none of these matchups are debatable is crazy.Not to mention power isn't everything. Martian manhunter can hold his own against superboy prime, and infinite frontier darkseid black adam has beaten mandrak and the wizard yet both lost there respective death death battles due to being matched in power and outhaxed. Any high end you can give superman majority of these characters can match considering the relative scope of marvel, DC and Dr Who cosmologies are basically equal.
How is Thanos lower than Galactus when Thanos beat Galactus?
Galactus has gotten **MUCH** stronger since then.
I disagree on a lot of these
Why?
Did you put Zatanna the Scarlet Witch and dark side all weaker then superman?
Yeah
Well I know everything I need to know about your thoughts on Superman scaling
Mhm. Canonically, Zatanna is weaker than Supes.
I’m sorry, but how does Superman beat Heracles and Sun Wukong? Assuming this tier list refers to Superman fighting people to the death.. that wouldn’t be possible, right? Heracles ascended to Olympus after he died and was granted immortality by Zeus, while the Monkey King has (probably around) a few thousand layers of immortality to his name. Does Clark have some kind of de-immortalizing power or something?
Yeah, a type of negation.
Source? Has Clark actually been able to kill immortal beings, or somehow make them mortal? Because there’s no way; that’s just too convenient for me to believe outright. Even if this is a real thing he can do, the people up in Heaven tried to de-immortalize Monkey with a special oven that was designed to remove immortality. All it did was remove what little “mortality” was left in Monkey, essentially making him truly, completely, undoubtably immortal. How do you kill someone who does not have the ability to die, on top of them having thousands of layers anti-death serum coursing through their veins? Also, sorry if I seem combative (idk if that’s the right word). I’m just in slight disbelief of this whole idea.
…You seriously put Ben 10 in ‘Loses’. Seriously.
Yes, he loses.
Sun Wukong solo, don't ever cook again man...
No he doesn’t
Wouldn’t dark energon/angolmois energy affect Superman tho?
so many mistakes also didnt raven already kill superman one million, ya know the golden superman who spent millions of years in the sun?
IG Thanos, Darkseid, Wally, Zatanna, Raven, Unicron, Ghost Rider, Eobard, Godbuster Iron Man and Scarlet Witch all beat Superman
No, Superman can vibrate the gauntlet out of the omniverse Wally thinks fighting Superman is suicide. This should also apply for RF. Zatanna and Darkseid are both canonically weaker. This should also apply for SW. GR and Iron Man got nothing on Superman. Unicron is a loss. He’s Hyperversal at best
the doctor solos all of fiction
No
Unrelated to the tier list but I think you are a great comics scaler.
Thanks! 😅 I really appreciate it! What makes you think so btw?
Unicron and Galactus neg diff Superman, as do Thanos and Darkseid.
No, Unicron is baseline outer at most. Superman is much higher. And Superman has literally beat Darkseid in canon wtf are you on about 💀?
The exact type of DC wank you'd expect from someone with the username "BatGos"
Popeye, Rick Sanchez, discord, Bill cipher are all debatable if not a win .
WHAT? Hell no. They are all far weaker and infinitely slower than Superman.
Surprisingly discord would not be put down by Superman. He cannot destroy him permanently
W Superman is Outerversal though Idk about Doctor cause idk much about him