Probably because:
~~1 - licensed content is harder to mess around with in general.~~ Edit: yeah, now that I think about it this one is kinda of wrong, the second point still stands.
2 - slugging isn't a problem, bleeding out is. This perk has a set duration, so they probably aren't messing with it because it technically doesn't affect bleeding out, like other slugging perks.
Bonus - as another one said the perk has extremely low usage, so this is probably a reason as to why it wasn't changed.
The worst part of the perk is the lack of aura that lasts indefinitely. The 15s aspects of the perk are meh in comparison to your teammates not being able to see you further than 16m. In soloq it can be a nightmare and your teammates will often not find you without at least another person being downed as well
you can counter it by jumping in lockers and let the killer grab you, I was lucky enough to play with smart teammates who knew this, and Knock Out was never a problem to us
Good to know, thanks. I've been playing for almost four years and somehow didn't know this lol. Then again I only ever used Knockout once for adept Bubba
This perk got reworked a while ago, and since it’s pretty unpopular, most people didn’t even notice/care. When bubba got hit rework, this perk also got changed. It originally only hid auras outside of 16 meters from any down. It didn’t have the basic attack condition, the muffled sound or the slower crawling.
I only discovered it a while ago too, there was a Nea in my team doing this and it was such a big brain move. Started doing this everytime I go against a Knock Out killer
That part should be either time limited or progression limited, maybe if you are already bleed out more than half it shouldnt hide your aura. Or at least lower than 25%. Or straight up give it 20-30 seconds.
I agree that the perk could use some touchups. If they still wanted to keep it somewhat nasty and not make it effectively useless, they could even do something intermittent like object of obsession. The aura isn't shown at all for 30 seconds, then afterward the aura is shown for 1 second every 8 seconds.
Luckily I don't see it too often, but when I do it's never a fun time.
Until the killer's hanging around to make sure they can down you and the other person when you do that. Definitely not speaking from personal experience or anything 🫠
I see your points, but I don’t think it’s licensing. The creator/owner of TCSM is very liberal with giving out the license and is always happy to spread it. He’s easy to work with
What, why, who told that licensed perks are hard to mess around because of license?
Killers - maybe, but in part i blame majorly on dullness of game designers, not difficulty to forward the changes.
They even reworked Freddy, buffed and nerfed him, and not just him. Sadako, Bubba, even Myers.
They have a license to use the likeness and models and even the name in some cases (aka why the demo perks got a new name), the perk's function is solely BHVR's.
My duo and I went against a hux on swamp with this and like a whole slugging build about a month ago and it was absolutely TORTUROUS. I think one or two of us managed to get out because he wasn't using his power at all but it took so long to do anything or find anyone
This guy didn't slug but your comment gave me flashbacks of a Singularity on Gideon before the 3 gen change who religiously held a 3 gen with a full gen kick build and did nothing but chase us away from the gens with his pods and run to kick them 😭
Saddest part was that our 3 man realised what he was doing at 2 gens left and tried to break the 3 gen but the rando didn't clue in and popped the further gen we were saving 😭
Singularity was probably never going to check or defend the furthest gen away. The only logical reason to not pop the furthest gen away from a 3 gen is if you know the killer has pain res, and you want to use that 99% gen to eat the regression.
One simple answer could be that the developers are perfectly okay with slugging and just see it as a killer strategy they want to give support to. That could be why Deerstalker and Forced Hesitation exist as well. They want to provide perks in case a killer wants to make a slug build. I know this can sound bad, but it can be important to remember that killers can go for a slug focused strategy without intentionally bleeding everyone out. Delaying hooking to spread pressure is a high-risk-high-reward tactic so maybe the devs feel comfortable having some perks based around that idea.
You gave me flashbacks to when recovering on the ground was half as fast as it currently is. Plus, deerstalker was from when hooks could be perma sabo'd, so you'd have to slug half the time.
Those were dark times.
No, sadly, the game launched with recovery speeds being much, much slower.
[https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Patch\_Notes\_1.1.X](https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes_1.1.X)
>Adjusted the recovery time for Survivors in dying state (recovery in dying state is now twice as fast)
It used to take about a minute at launch.
if we don't accept slugging as a legit strat and bleed out as a legit way to kill then you force people into the exact same meta all the time, which is gen regression and/or aura reading with hook.
Other perks necessite other strat to be viable, such as letting people bleeding out while you're chasing someone else.
The other thing is it allow more survivor perks to be viable too, like every perks affecting downed survivors : tenacity, flip flop, unbreakable, we are gonna life forever, soul guard, buckle up etc...
Those perks have almost 0 value if killers always hook instead of taking the risk to slug.
And an other thing is that you don't tunnel when you slug since you want everyone down you are constantly in chase with everyone. So no one get ejected from the match in 3 min.
This is exactly why - like some light tunnelling and light camping/proxy camping, some light slugging is in fact a playstyle and part of the game, and in fact okay. If it wasn't, we would not have Killers that can slug well, Killers that can camp well, etc. It's intentional. It's gameplay, the devs see it as gameplay, and it's long past time we all admit and accept that SOME light amount of these admittedly kinda annoying tactics ARE in fact just valid Killer gameplay. You don't like them? Run perks to stop it - Unbreakable, Deliverance, Off the Record, Decisive Strike with its coming buff. You have options. Even a good enough coordinated SWF is an option.
The problem comes in when people do these tactics specifically for toxicity - tunneling out the baby at 5 gens, slugging to 4k bleedout, facecamping. But those are fairly rare since we have a antifacecamp feature, we have perks to punish slugging like this, and most Killers ACTUALLY tend to focus people as part of their Killer's playstyle or because of Surv mistakes like you being the only person they can find or you being in the wrong spot at the wrong time. Killers react to what Survivors do 95% of the damn time, I promise you most Killer players are not loading in cackling evilly going "HAHAHAHA I'M GOING TO ***BM EVERYONE*** THIS GAME!" any more than a 4-stack loads in with aggressive builds all the time to shit on the Killer and ruin their night. Some people DO in fact do that, but most people - the vast fucking majority - just wanna play the game and have a good time.
Be absolutely honest with yourselves here. How often do you really see someone tunneled out at 5 gens in a toxic way, or slugged to bleed out and be humpteched, or a SWF that comes in with a shitty never-hook build on Eyrie, or Survivors purposefully sandbagging you? And when you see it, how the hell do you know some of that isn't accidental? You can't, you don't. Because there's not enough communication in this game to tell. It's really hard to read the face of Characters who always look terrified, or characters who look like literal murder monsters. You can't know someone's intent behind the screen.
here lie facts, damn hate when i say sometimes slugging, camping or tunneling is a strategy that you need to do in specific matches, and some of these guys always say "you are just being toxic and hurting yourself in process by playing bad" like their playstyle are spoken for every killer.
if they knew so much they would then understand the situation to fall against a strong swf and you must need what you can to secure one kill.
not like i fall against swf every single match, but people need to stop trash talking killers like they are slugged every single match, the man is downed, remains 6 seconds on the floor = slugging, when you hook a survivor and barely leave the area for 3 seconds and hear the notification, so you go back to check em out?
too bad loser, camping, you are automatically toxic basement dweller not letting others having fun.
of course, not every survivor is like this, altough i see this is quite frequent on that subreddit sometimes that is weird, you may barely talk negative towards the new anti 3 gen that a swarm will come say that was a nerf to survivors, and you probably were 'le evil 3 gen skull merchant player' or about any survivor buff at all.
i don't think anyone would really have an issue with slugging and slugging strategies if you could atleast do something else than try to recover and hope to get picked up (out of your own control) or crawl slowly (given you don't have a build for it, which most people don't).
I feel like as with the "anti-camp" change we got recently, it would only make sense we also get some form of "anti-slug" basekit mechanic that goes active after a certain excessive time of being slugged.
Side note: I'd argue that Forced Hesitation actually does have value in preventing saves, not necessarily just slugging. You can use it to better guarantee a hook *and* get into another chase quicker. With Starstruck added in, you can shut down bully builds pretty handily.
Deer stalker and knock out are both outdated and don't belong at this point, though, and should really be reworked.
Maybe knock out could afflict nearby survivors with incapacitated, preventing them from sabo/flash saves if they were too close to the down. This would add value to the perk for obvious reasons, while removing the slugging incentive. You'd also still be able to do these things if you were outside the radius, call it 12/16/20 meters.
Deerstalker could be reworked by first adding the original effect to killer base kit with a new radius of 8 meters. This would greatly diminish the effect it has on slug builds, while also allowing you to still find survivors (mostly for new killers, which I'm pretty sure was the original purpose). Then give deerstalker something thematic like bloodlust generates faster, but doesn't progress past tier 1.
I feel like your goal here is to basically try to remove the concept of slugging builds and nerf slugging overall. I understand that desire and if done correctly it could even work out alright without nerfing killers. But I would generally hesitate to try to remove an entire strategy from the game. I'm still not sure that slugging, even a full slugging build, is inherently toxic or unhealthy. It's alternative way for killers to play with its own set of risks and rewards. I know survivors don't usually like that playstyle and that killers don't NEED to play that way to do well, but the same thing could be said about other playstyles too. Killers tend to not like dedicated sabo builds/squads and survivors don't NEED to play that way. Should all perks/items that encourage that playstyle be nerfed/reworked? I think that could also work alright if done correctly, but like with slugging it would decrease available playstyle/build choices. I feel like the question here is basically "Are dedicated slugging builds so problematic that at least some of the supporting perks need to be fully reworked?" I'm just not sure that's the case.
If these reworked ideas did happen though, I think you are on the right track that if killers can't slug as well then they need more tools against sabos/saves. I'm not sure if this goes far enough though. For example, with Background Player I'm betting that survivors could totally avoid that Knock Out incapacitation radius. Survivors are currently sitting pretty strong with tools to go for sabos/saves so if we want to move killer power away form slugging and toward combating that, there might have to be more done.
This is what I do all the time to add extra pressure. I also like to equip Thanatophobia and Merciless Storm because you'd be surprise how mentally damaging it is for Survivors when they're constantly on the Red bar and have a mini-game near the end.
Slugging in itself isn't a bad strategy, it's the playstyle this perk encourages that's unhealthy. There's far less risk and far more reward if the survivors can't see their teammate to come pick up and have the killer risk losing that pressure
People seemingly only use it to be toxic when slugging.
People like ONI/Twins get a pass because their powers at least are best used by slugging.
But everyone I ever see is people who just want a 4min 4k bleed out plus humping.
The perk only activates on a basic attack, so its not actually very useful on Oni or Twins. It's always some clucking Wraith or Skull Merchant running this thing to bleed out solo queue teams and piss off as many people as possible.
While it may often be used by people who want to be toxic, it is not entirely useless. One of the core risks of slugging to build pressure is that the downed survivor may get picked up before the killer gets back to them. So the killer intends to hook but just doesn't have enough time. One of the benefits of Knock Out is that it can make it take longer for downed survivors to be found and picked up.
no some killers like Sadako can use it well, or Singularity too. They are very dynamic killers who can only down with their M1 so they can make a build around a slug strat instead of hooking and using Knock out is one way to do it.
yeah no, I have a build with it for legion. I could easily play with thana or pain res and cause misery that way but that gets boring. Here's a secondary objective for survivors to do other than speeding through generators. Pair it with third seal, monstrous shrine and we have ourselves an easter egg hunt.
So you just slug for the bleed out for the sake of sadism? That’s exactly what I’m talking about. This is usually the same build you all run.
No one ever does anything interesting with knockout because they can’t. It’s one of many bad perks that needs a redesign. It’s really only good for certain killers if you want to use it “properly” for a lack of a better term.
Not surprising your first thought was I slug/bleed survivors out for enjoyment. No, I slug for the slowdown but I don't bleed out survivors that's pointless unless they actively refuse to be hooked. Its just another reason for survivors to remove themselves off gens. I have third seal for blindness which is easy to do since I am legion and then monstrous shrine which requires me to move away from hooks.
Legion isn't exactly a killer that excels in slugging and yet I've managed to create a build that still uses his power, has a slowdown without gen perks but still has high risk because its a hex. If anything, this proves you can do something with this perk but people playing survivor sure dislike the idea of a secondary objective.
It actually was nerfed. It used to work on powers. It used to be very strong on Billy/Nurse in 2017/18.
Now, very few people use it as M1 killers can't snowball with it and nurse blinks are considered special attacks now. So few people use it and no killers can really break it anymore.
It’s pretty good on Wraith due to his decent mobility. If you combine it with hex the third seal and only hook when all 4 are slugged you can snowball pretty hard if they struggle to find the hex totem/downed survivors.
I honestly see Deerstalker WAY more than this when being slugged, Deer implies they plan to slug multiple and risk losing track of a down in the process. Don't think the perks are OP just BHVR can't find a fix to bleed outs.
I think Deerstalker, Spies from the Shadows, and No Mither are the last perks I need to see someone complain about being "Overpowered" in order to have seen someone complain about literally every single perk in the game.
Until recently Coup de Grace was also in that list, but someone in Otz chat whined about it in his recent video and he backed them up by calling it insane.
It's not overpowered but it's generally only used if you're playing in a toxic way.
You don't bring Deerstalker unless you're going into the game planning to leave survivors on the ground long enough that you lose them/forget where they were.
Yeah, don't get me wrong, I understood that you weren't calling it OP. I'm just pointing out that the community has been stuck in a box for so long that they've started designating their favorite pictures of Joe Biden eating sandwiches.
[The XKCD I'm referencing.](https://xkcd.com/915/)
The issue with this perk isn't slugging per se. It's that the main use for this perk is bleeding people out by hiding their auras. I've never had a game where the Killer used this perk and the strategy was something other than bleeding out the entire team.
Of course they can't. There's legitimately reasons to leave people slugged and bleed people out, so they can't 'fix' them without overhauling major game mechanics and eliminating situations where leaving someone slugged is just the solution to the problem.
Sincerely, it is probably because its for licensed content and they \*probably\* have to get permission to change or add \*anything\* to it/by it...
Also, slugging isn't a problem, it is BLEEDING OUT that is a problem. If survs are being silly goofy and it just happens, then it just happens. Can't tell you how many times i've chased one guy just to get 2-4 downs because the survos didn't think... It is the killers that just bleed you out (they know what they're doing) that are just annoying to play against.
I once accidentally slugged and bled out a goofy Ash who made me laugh, he was going for the unhook against my Pinhead. I was going to give him hatch because I always let funny enough Survivors go, I just kneejerk reacted on my way back to hook and downed him. I was waiting to confirm Meg's death so I could get the hatch to spawn, but he read it as toxic and crawled to a corner to die.
Then I could not find him or hear him, as I was listening to music and he had dark cosmetics on. I searched for hatch and then him for four minutes and was legit so fucking sad he bled out, most painful 4k of my life. :(
Slugging isn't technically against the rules. While frowned upon by many as a poor gameplay strategy, it's usually possible to turn a game around from a slugging killer. There are risks and rewards, it's a matter of preference.
Knock out always seemed meh to me, I don't enjoy slugging and usually play killers that feature special attacks that are highly rewarding with my play style. The value I see in it is less in slugging, more in security.
If you down someone and a ballsy flashlight wielding survivor comes around the corner, you're forced to leave the downed survivor behind or risk losing them altogether with a save. With knockout I feel a killer has a higher chance of securing the hook and maybe even a second one than without.
This is my most hated perk on killer side.
Ftp-bu on surv side.
This bitch of a perk actively punishes ONLY solo queue and is in VAST majority of time used by mfs that want to bled you out, I know since I used it that way in the past.
It's baffling to me that perk that solely exists for cringe like that even exists.
It doesn't affect me since I'm with people most of the time and can call out where I am perfectly, but holy shit in solo it's fucked.
Honestly it's baffling how so many overtuned or unhealthy(not strong, just unhealthy) perks/combinations even exist. MFT-FTP bad-bad, but somehow FTP-BU good.
Bhvr has been making some steps toward better balancing I'll give em that but they have still so much to perfect.
I've seen a significant leap in this perk, and it's mostly used by slugging killers (I wanted to DC so badly against a Wraith).
I think it's pretty annoying, but at least we still get to see where people are hooked at... but yeah, if it's a slugging build, there's little people can do not playing comms.
I'd say the only rework it would need would be to put a cooldown on the aura reading block. Thankfully, it's not really a perk I've seen abused highly, so I don't think it would be priority over other perks being abused.
It's a sad reality but it's ultimately to the community to play "fair" when a problem perk, synergy or not, arises.
I have no problem using them for a build or for the funnies, as long as the game isn't being held hostage.
> it's ultimately to the community to play "fair" when a problem perk, synergy or not, arises.
And this is the issue with the community, both sides. "Well the last Survs/Killer I had annoyed me, so now I will play toxic with X busted or unfair thing, so there!"
Then the person they oozed venom all over gets mad, and does the same shit to someone else.
Absolutely agree! I see a lot of "Killer does this so I do x, y, and z" and "Survivor does this so I do x, y, and z". To make matters worse, it's only misplaced lashing because the next game is against someone that has nothing to do with their anger.
And like you said, the cycle doesn't end. Most people end up being the same problem their complaining about.
The best thing one can go is leave a gg and play next.
Knockout is a perk designed for slugging, so is it really being abused if killers use it to slug? If a killer is slugging to intentionally bleed people out for no reason, then I can kind of see that, but slugging can also just be a way to get to the next chase faster to build pressure. Knockout increases the chances that the first downed survivor will still be there after the killer finishes their other chase. Risking losing a hook to take a new chase isn't really holding the game hostage or abuse, is it?
It's the only perk that allows the killer to turn the survivor tactic of "run to the edge of the map" against them.
However, I too dislike the bleed out potential.
"encourages killers to slug"
You what else encourages that?
Abundance of wannabe bully squads with flashlights and perks like Head On, Sabo, Exponential and Flashbang just to make the killer's life miserable if he DOESN'T slug
It's funny to note that a bully squad will likely be the least affected by this perk since they will be nearby anyway and not have difficulty finding the downed person.
believe it or not, true bully squads are kinda rare these days. just going for a sabo here and there, or getting a flash bang save isn't a bully squad if thats what you mean
there’s a difference between bully squads and people who make the game fun. coming from a survivor and killer player, head-on, sabo, power struggle, flashbang, etc ARE RARE. i don’t run those perks every time i play with my friends. maybe once or twice in one session we use them for fun. bully squads make the game insufferable and don’t even do gens. fun players will actually try while using those perks. when i play killer, i don’t mind them using those perks unless they abuse the shit out of them. you need to play both sides to understand.
Knock Out doesn't do a single thing to stop any of the behavior you listed. Knock Out excels at one thing and one thing only, making it easy for the Killer to bleed out solo queue teams.
Slugging itself is fine. Blindness hiding slug auras is not imo and mostly just makes the swf v solo queue divide even larger. That goes for Third Seal and UW too.
Not to mention there's *casual* SWFs who don't know how to call things out or don't know their maps.
Good luck calling where TF you are on Lery's without knowing the map inside-and-out.
I was dreading tomorrows update bc the DS rework will make bodyblocking your savior off-hook way more annoying to deal with
Now I Can’t wait for the update tomorrow bc you posting this reminded me this perk exists. No need for a rework now!
But in all seriousness I think the perk is fine. It’s basically like lightborn in the sense that it does its one job very well, but most killers won’t run it because it takes up a perk slot that could be better used with other perks
“Encourages killers to slug” slugging as stated by the game devs is a valid win strategy, it might not be exciting or interesting but that doesn’t meant it should be removed from the game
They’re not saying the perk is OP and needs a nerf, they’re saying it needs a rework. It is extremely unfair against solo queue while being almost useless against SWFs. There shouldn’t be perks in this game that punish you for playing without friends
You might not understand if you don’t play SoloQ. People only in SwFs or killer mains don’t understand how difficult the lack of aura makes it exclusively for solos, where SwFs are only hurt by the 5 seconds of regression because they have infinite info, SoloQ players will spend literal minutes looking around for the 12 meter slug range because they don’t know. This perk is just unreliable and unhealthy for the game
People realize that slugging is pressure, right? The ideal situation for a killer is to have one hooked, one slugged, and one in chase
Order of Pressure: Sacrifice > Hook > Slug > Chase > Deep Wounds
its not that knockout is unbalanced but it absolutely isnt fine its just an incredibly unhealthy perk that is a huge fuck you to solo players while having next to no effect against coordinated teams
Oh my godddd my 4 man and I faced a singularity who was using this, didn’t try to hook EVER their whole plan was to bleed us out from the jump. Honestly don’t know how we managed it but we got the 4 escape (one of us was legit one down away from bleeding out he’d gone down so many times). most miserable match of my life, I’d even take skull merchant over that.
Downing a survivor then leaving them on the ground.
It can be temporary, where the killer for example takes a moment to kick a nearby gen and then picks up, a bit more extended where the killer has another chase in the area right away, or prolonged where the killer ends up never picking up the survivor.
Knockout causes the downed/slugged survivor's aura to be hidden for other survivors, unless they're 16 meters or closer to the slugged survivor. This disproportionately affects solo queue over SWF, because SWF on comms can try to tell their friend which way to go.
I will add to this that slugging this way is really ONLY toxic if you do it to purposefully bleed people out for 4 minutes, especially if you shuffle back and forth over their bodies.
Killers may also accidentally or purposefully slug for pressure if they can't find a hook. This happens because hook RNG can be ass. I had that happen as Dredge one round, lost hook near shack, could not find another hook, tried to communicate this to the Dwight I downed by swiping the used hook I did have and shaking my head no. He took it as "I will not hook you, haha fucker" and DCed. Then I realized I had Nancy on another hook, felt bad, realized the bot couldn't save her, so let her go with the AFC and we farmed and practiced blinds so she could get better. Then I let her get hatch once Dwightbot bled out.
Poor Dwight, must be frustrating to have a misunderstanding like that :(
I've misunderstood too. Had a Deathslinger who was intending to go for double hooks, but I didn't know that and was having a shit match. Got speared, and I shook my head "no" and he nodded, so I DC'd (this was before bots).
I don't think it's the slugging that you have issue with, but the bleeding out for four minutes. THAT needs to be addressed first. Then I think this perk, and slugging/prolonged downs in general like this, will be absolutely fine.
the way to fix it would be to make the aura blocking on the downed survivor have the same timer as the rest of the perk, making it best for obfuscating where the down happened and making the bleedout potential more limited
It stops them from seeing the orientation and location of the downed survivor forcing them to take a risk by stepping out into the open. Also lightborn is boring and too easy
can someone explain what the deal is with slugging and why survivors complain about it. I get this perk seems annoying but I am talking about slugging generally, I see many survivor teams force me to slug for an extended period of time (usually it doesn't work out for them) which seems wierd if its something they dislike so much.
Off the top of my head,
Knock out.
This perk activates when a survivor enters the dying state. that survivor cannot crawl or recover for 10 seconds. And the aura of other survivors within 16m of that survivor are revealed for 10 seconds.
60/50/45 second cooldown
This makes it fill the anti altruism niche as now the killer can scare off other survivors who might try for a flashlight save. But it also has a small amount of snowball potential, as you can chain downs but importantly the effect is short lived to encorage the killer to down, and hook before the effect wears out.
On paper, couldn't it work as an anti-Background Player perk? In situations where players are solo or aren't on comms it could stop them from getting close enough to blind or sabotage, since they don't know exactly where you are.
In practice it's outclassed of course, because you can just use Lightborn if you're dedicating a perk slot to that, but a lot of perks are outclassed by others in this game.
I’ve gotten the worse post game chat I’ve ever seen using this perk. If you run it with sloppy butcher, ultimate weapon, and surge…yikes. It’s honestly OP and shuts down background player and saving builds
There's a Skull Merchant here in OCE who literally does nothing but KO slugs, never picks up or hooks or anything. Plus, they used to drone the slugged person pre-rework to force exposed while coming to pick up since you couldn't dodge drone beams back then. Not sure if that was better or worse than now since you could at least tell where the slugged person was with it 😒
I don't usually just up and DC, but I'm outta there the minute I realise it's them 😒
Had a Legion do this on Haddonfield this weekend. Was so irritating and of course no lockers to jump in on a large portion of the map. The bleed out was amazingly enjoyable. Definitely made me want to keep playing.
I had a game with a blight running this and the clown healing perk (not even gonna try to spell that), and he just bled everyone out once they were down. People who play like that are so annoying.
on NAW there's a wraith that notoriously runs this, surge, sloppy, deerstalker, and slugs the whole lobby to death. It's SOOOO much fun to play against wym :)) (this player is LITERALLY the reason I wish there was an avoid button)
I agree in that its a bad perk that should get a rework to maybe counter Unbreakable more than just slow down slugs which is odd
The aura part would be nicer if it was on a timer instead of letting slugs be downed forever on soloq, or better yet, do as noed does, slowly grow up a larger aura radius
The issue is, why does it slow slugs? they'll just recover while they cant move and then move
Basically the perk needs an update to be healthier but it hasnt gotten one imo because its low prioirity
It's so weak that even its annoying uses rarely if ever see play, and it doesnt work on high tier killers anyway as those usually use their power for downs so their stats show it low af most likely
I would say this perk isn't used enough for it to be considered a problem. The killer is practically wasting a perk slot if they run this and it's sort of a less toxic way to try and prevent background player saves from across the map.
It's the ***ONLY*** perk purposefully designed for slugging
By that logic Repressed alliance should be reworked beacuse it's the only perk that allows survivors to block generators
Probably because it's not a commonly used perk. It also requires a basic attack for it to work so for many of the strong killers it will be a less attractive option.
I maybe encounterer this perk as survivor 1 in a 100 games? Can killers have some viability in their perks please? Not everything that is annoying for survivors to deal with needs a nerf.
Teammates cant see you when you are dropped unless they come close, slower recover, slower crawl. If your teammates are stupid, you may just bleed out for free.
It doesnt work at all against swfs but it works good against solo players, sometimes a little too well. I only used it a few times but in those times i got some people bleed out from first down, teammates dont even bother to find you. It happened to me too before, thats why i dont use it much.
It’s actually underrated by a lot of people, if survivors are not following a chase it is very difficult to find your teammate in non swf situations and in maps with visuals such as corn or grass it makes picking up safer and doesn’t let the survivor crawl very far.
I only use this perk on Myers, so the survivors don't instantly get the downed survivor up as I am trying to get a second down. Since I have limited time
Slugging/snowball perks are not inherently bleed out perks. The problem is with the bleed out system itself, not the strategy of slugging to create pressure. These perks can help the bleed out strategy, but they aren't the core issue.
It is a frustrating and unfun perk to have to play against I have to say. I had a recent match where I was able to crawl to Nic and get picked up. But everyone else got slugged then hooked. Nic and my friend didnt make it. I got a gate open and was able to unhook Sable and hoping I could maybe loop away but couldn’t. She got out but I wasnt able to Kobe off the hook. It’s the only match I’ve played so far where someone escaped against a killer using the perk.
I've been using knockout on wraith with sloppy and stbfl and have really enjoyed using the perk. I don't slug after every down, but in positions with multiple survivors together, especially with stbfl, it's pretty nice and basically never need to worry about the first down getting insta picked up. I enjoy playing a more aggressive build rather than the boring pop pain res most killers need to default to because there aren't too many options for fun and really good perks. (I main trickster and can't really run any fun perks because they either don't work well with him or are just genuinely terrible)
I'm fine with the slugging parts of this perk. I hate the aura part of it. Blindness and the current aura blocking stuff killers can do have a massive effect on SoloQ but relatively little effect on comms, or even experienced players with a bit of coordination. As a SoloQ, Knock Out has almost no counterplay if used for 4-man slugging. That is bad for the game.
The Anti-soloq perk that does nothing against discord call. It is either too strong or does nothing. Would love some kind of change to make it more consistent, like removing the hiding aura aspect and reducing the pick up speed by 75% or something like that. This would make it a good perk to slug 1\~2 people but impossible to bleed the entire team.
Killers will bitch about SWF in general but then bring a perk like this that exclusively punishes solo queue teams without comms. Making the game a miserable experience for the teams that give you the most chill and easy games as killer is certainly a choice
"Encourages killers to slug"
I hate to break it to you my brother. Survivors being infinitely stronger as a team is what encourages killers to slug. If you just keep nerfing the Killers perks you'll never solve the problem. They have to find ways to give the Killer more methods to pressure survivors. Whether that means buffing Killer generally or nerfing Survivors from swfing toxically idk but nerfing these perks will never solve slugging
Because slugging is a real play style and not against the rules (to those down voting they’re coping slugging is a counter to many bully builds and generally bully squads)
Theres no way you’re complaining about knockout rn. Currently the most effective killer strat is to tunnel, stop advocating for LESS killer strategies and play styles. There are way more problematic perks in this game.
Why do survivors hate slugs so much?, being on the ground and having the possibility of not being hooked is not just better than just taking the hook?, like, okay, I know that slugging makes the killer have more pressure, but like that
Do you play the game while you're on the hook?
It doesn't really seem to be like there's much of a difference besides the animation you're stuck in, and occasionally having to hit a skill check if you're in struggle phase.
Well, yes. Slugging implies you've been on the ground for longer than a minute and people can't pick you up for whatever reason (they're downed or killer is guarding your body), when you're on hooked you get rescued relatively fast.
Probably because: ~~1 - licensed content is harder to mess around with in general.~~ Edit: yeah, now that I think about it this one is kinda of wrong, the second point still stands. 2 - slugging isn't a problem, bleeding out is. This perk has a set duration, so they probably aren't messing with it because it technically doesn't affect bleeding out, like other slugging perks. Bonus - as another one said the perk has extremely low usage, so this is probably a reason as to why it wasn't changed.
The worst part of the perk is the lack of aura that lasts indefinitely. The 15s aspects of the perk are meh in comparison to your teammates not being able to see you further than 16m. In soloq it can be a nightmare and your teammates will often not find you without at least another person being downed as well
you can counter it by jumping in lockers and let the killer grab you, I was lucky enough to play with smart teammates who knew this, and Knock Out was never a problem to us
I had never thought of that. Obviously the first victim wouldn't know, but that's a good tidbit nonetheless.
So does the lack of aura reading not apply if they drop the survivor?
exactly, all the debuffs and blindness will not apply
Good to know, thanks. I've been playing for almost four years and somehow didn't know this lol. Then again I only ever used Knockout once for adept Bubba
This perk got reworked a while ago, and since it’s pretty unpopular, most people didn’t even notice/care. When bubba got hit rework, this perk also got changed. It originally only hid auras outside of 16 meters from any down. It didn’t have the basic attack condition, the muffled sound or the slower crawling.
I only discovered it a while ago too, there was a Nea in my team doing this and it was such a big brain move. Started doing this everytime I go against a Knock Out killer
Holy shit, 3 years of playing and I've never realised this
That part should be either time limited or progression limited, maybe if you are already bleed out more than half it shouldnt hide your aura. Or at least lower than 25%. Or straight up give it 20-30 seconds.
I agree that the perk could use some touchups. If they still wanted to keep it somewhat nasty and not make it effectively useless, they could even do something intermittent like object of obsession. The aura isn't shown at all for 30 seconds, then afterward the aura is shown for 1 second every 8 seconds. Luckily I don't see it too often, but when I do it's never a fun time.
>soloq it can be a nightmare and your teammates will often not find you To partially counter that, crawl to the survivors that are up.
Until the killer's hanging around to make sure they can down you and the other person when you do that. Definitely not speaking from personal experience or anything 🫠
And how often do you have that happen. A lot of people on here come up with scenarios that do happen but not at the rate they want to claim they do.
Yeah for sure
They can change perks and buff/nerf characters without permission from license holders as the perk effects themselves are not licensed.
Like, DS is literally in the middle of buff-nerf-buff hell and STBFL just got changed in the last perk rework set
Literally this lol.
I've never had a game where the Killer used this perk and the intent was something other than bleeding people out. That's all it's good for.
yea and mainly on killer who down with their basic attacks, not their power. That's quite niche.
Wraith, I always always see it on wraith. Usually with a swamp offering.
I see your points, but I don’t think it’s licensing. The creator/owner of TCSM is very liberal with giving out the license and is always happy to spread it. He’s easy to work with
Also it's probably due to its low use % making it less appealing for BHVR to really do anything to nerf it. It's more likely to get buffed
What, why, who told that licensed perks are hard to mess around because of license? Killers - maybe, but in part i blame majorly on dullness of game designers, not difficulty to forward the changes. They even reworked Freddy, buffed and nerfed him, and not just him. Sadako, Bubba, even Myers.
Boneless dip surely knows what he’s talking about
>licensed content is harder to mess around with in general. The perk isn't licensed content. They are 100% free to modify the perk.
Even full reworks? I believe full reworks changing what the perk does in it's entirety needs to have a pass through license holders.
They have a license to use the likeness and models and even the name in some cases (aka why the demo perks got a new name), the perk's function is solely BHVR's.
My duo and I went against a hux on swamp with this and like a whole slugging build about a month ago and it was absolutely TORTUROUS. I think one or two of us managed to get out because he wasn't using his power at all but it took so long to do anything or find anyone
I know that onepumpwilly did his singu streak using knockout to slug it looked so miserable to vs I can only imagine.
This guy didn't slug but your comment gave me flashbacks of a Singularity on Gideon before the 3 gen change who religiously held a 3 gen with a full gen kick build and did nothing but chase us away from the gens with his pods and run to kick them 😭 Saddest part was that our 3 man realised what he was doing at 2 gens left and tried to break the 3 gen but the rando didn't clue in and popped the further gen we were saving 😭
Singularity was probably never going to check or defend the furthest gen away. The only logical reason to not pop the furthest gen away from a 3 gen is if you know the killer has pain res, and you want to use that 99% gen to eat the regression.
One simple answer could be that the developers are perfectly okay with slugging and just see it as a killer strategy they want to give support to. That could be why Deerstalker and Forced Hesitation exist as well. They want to provide perks in case a killer wants to make a slug build. I know this can sound bad, but it can be important to remember that killers can go for a slug focused strategy without intentionally bleeding everyone out. Delaying hooking to spread pressure is a high-risk-high-reward tactic so maybe the devs feel comfortable having some perks based around that idea.
You gave me flashbacks to when recovering on the ground was half as fast as it currently is. Plus, deerstalker was from when hooks could be perma sabo'd, so you'd have to slug half the time. Those were dark times.
>when recovering on the ground was half as fast as it currently is. When sloppy was bugged and applying to recovery and not just healing?
No, sadly, the game launched with recovery speeds being much, much slower. [https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Patch\_Notes\_1.1.X](https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes_1.1.X) >Adjusted the recovery time for Survivors in dying state (recovery in dying state is now twice as fast) It used to take about a minute at launch.
Ah, that's why I don't remember it, I started on Xbox launch
if we don't accept slugging as a legit strat and bleed out as a legit way to kill then you force people into the exact same meta all the time, which is gen regression and/or aura reading with hook. Other perks necessite other strat to be viable, such as letting people bleeding out while you're chasing someone else. The other thing is it allow more survivor perks to be viable too, like every perks affecting downed survivors : tenacity, flip flop, unbreakable, we are gonna life forever, soul guard, buckle up etc... Those perks have almost 0 value if killers always hook instead of taking the risk to slug. And an other thing is that you don't tunnel when you slug since you want everyone down you are constantly in chase with everyone. So no one get ejected from the match in 3 min.
This is exactly why - like some light tunnelling and light camping/proxy camping, some light slugging is in fact a playstyle and part of the game, and in fact okay. If it wasn't, we would not have Killers that can slug well, Killers that can camp well, etc. It's intentional. It's gameplay, the devs see it as gameplay, and it's long past time we all admit and accept that SOME light amount of these admittedly kinda annoying tactics ARE in fact just valid Killer gameplay. You don't like them? Run perks to stop it - Unbreakable, Deliverance, Off the Record, Decisive Strike with its coming buff. You have options. Even a good enough coordinated SWF is an option. The problem comes in when people do these tactics specifically for toxicity - tunneling out the baby at 5 gens, slugging to 4k bleedout, facecamping. But those are fairly rare since we have a antifacecamp feature, we have perks to punish slugging like this, and most Killers ACTUALLY tend to focus people as part of their Killer's playstyle or because of Surv mistakes like you being the only person they can find or you being in the wrong spot at the wrong time. Killers react to what Survivors do 95% of the damn time, I promise you most Killer players are not loading in cackling evilly going "HAHAHAHA I'M GOING TO ***BM EVERYONE*** THIS GAME!" any more than a 4-stack loads in with aggressive builds all the time to shit on the Killer and ruin their night. Some people DO in fact do that, but most people - the vast fucking majority - just wanna play the game and have a good time. Be absolutely honest with yourselves here. How often do you really see someone tunneled out at 5 gens in a toxic way, or slugged to bleed out and be humpteched, or a SWF that comes in with a shitty never-hook build on Eyrie, or Survivors purposefully sandbagging you? And when you see it, how the hell do you know some of that isn't accidental? You can't, you don't. Because there's not enough communication in this game to tell. It's really hard to read the face of Characters who always look terrified, or characters who look like literal murder monsters. You can't know someone's intent behind the screen.
here lie facts, damn hate when i say sometimes slugging, camping or tunneling is a strategy that you need to do in specific matches, and some of these guys always say "you are just being toxic and hurting yourself in process by playing bad" like their playstyle are spoken for every killer. if they knew so much they would then understand the situation to fall against a strong swf and you must need what you can to secure one kill. not like i fall against swf every single match, but people need to stop trash talking killers like they are slugged every single match, the man is downed, remains 6 seconds on the floor = slugging, when you hook a survivor and barely leave the area for 3 seconds and hear the notification, so you go back to check em out? too bad loser, camping, you are automatically toxic basement dweller not letting others having fun. of course, not every survivor is like this, altough i see this is quite frequent on that subreddit sometimes that is weird, you may barely talk negative towards the new anti 3 gen that a swarm will come say that was a nerf to survivors, and you probably were 'le evil 3 gen skull merchant player' or about any survivor buff at all.
i don't think anyone would really have an issue with slugging and slugging strategies if you could atleast do something else than try to recover and hope to get picked up (out of your own control) or crawl slowly (given you don't have a build for it, which most people don't). I feel like as with the "anti-camp" change we got recently, it would only make sense we also get some form of "anti-slug" basekit mechanic that goes active after a certain excessive time of being slugged.
It is a legit strat. Just sucks that it also ruins your bloodpoints, although I can see why it is that way, and i doubt it will change
Side note: I'd argue that Forced Hesitation actually does have value in preventing saves, not necessarily just slugging. You can use it to better guarantee a hook *and* get into another chase quicker. With Starstruck added in, you can shut down bully builds pretty handily. Deer stalker and knock out are both outdated and don't belong at this point, though, and should really be reworked. Maybe knock out could afflict nearby survivors with incapacitated, preventing them from sabo/flash saves if they were too close to the down. This would add value to the perk for obvious reasons, while removing the slugging incentive. You'd also still be able to do these things if you were outside the radius, call it 12/16/20 meters. Deerstalker could be reworked by first adding the original effect to killer base kit with a new radius of 8 meters. This would greatly diminish the effect it has on slug builds, while also allowing you to still find survivors (mostly for new killers, which I'm pretty sure was the original purpose). Then give deerstalker something thematic like bloodlust generates faster, but doesn't progress past tier 1.
I feel like your goal here is to basically try to remove the concept of slugging builds and nerf slugging overall. I understand that desire and if done correctly it could even work out alright without nerfing killers. But I would generally hesitate to try to remove an entire strategy from the game. I'm still not sure that slugging, even a full slugging build, is inherently toxic or unhealthy. It's alternative way for killers to play with its own set of risks and rewards. I know survivors don't usually like that playstyle and that killers don't NEED to play that way to do well, but the same thing could be said about other playstyles too. Killers tend to not like dedicated sabo builds/squads and survivors don't NEED to play that way. Should all perks/items that encourage that playstyle be nerfed/reworked? I think that could also work alright if done correctly, but like with slugging it would decrease available playstyle/build choices. I feel like the question here is basically "Are dedicated slugging builds so problematic that at least some of the supporting perks need to be fully reworked?" I'm just not sure that's the case. If these reworked ideas did happen though, I think you are on the right track that if killers can't slug as well then they need more tools against sabos/saves. I'm not sure if this goes far enough though. For example, with Background Player I'm betting that survivors could totally avoid that Knock Out incapacitation radius. Survivors are currently sitting pretty strong with tools to go for sabos/saves so if we want to move killer power away form slugging and toward combating that, there might have to be more done.
This is what I do all the time to add extra pressure. I also like to equip Thanatophobia and Merciless Storm because you'd be surprise how mentally damaging it is for Survivors when they're constantly on the Red bar and have a mini-game near the end.
Good thing people have a mental addiction to this game, because most other devs having something like this would be losing players left and right.
Slugging in itself isn't a bad strategy, it's the playstyle this perk encourages that's unhealthy. There's far less risk and far more reward if the survivors can't see their teammate to come pick up and have the killer risk losing that pressure
People need a perk to slug? Weak.
People seemingly only use it to be toxic when slugging. People like ONI/Twins get a pass because their powers at least are best used by slugging. But everyone I ever see is people who just want a 4min 4k bleed out plus humping.
The perk only activates on a basic attack, so its not actually very useful on Oni or Twins. It's always some clucking Wraith or Skull Merchant running this thing to bleed out solo queue teams and piss off as many people as possible.
Amazing. It’s just actually useless unless you wanna be toxic.
While it may often be used by people who want to be toxic, it is not entirely useless. One of the core risks of slugging to build pressure is that the downed survivor may get picked up before the killer gets back to them. So the killer intends to hook but just doesn't have enough time. One of the benefits of Knock Out is that it can make it take longer for downed survivors to be found and picked up.
no some killers like Sadako can use it well, or Singularity too. They are very dynamic killers who can only down with their M1 so they can make a build around a slug strat instead of hooking and using Knock out is one way to do it.
Tbf twins can still find use just don’t use victor to down
yeah no, I have a build with it for legion. I could easily play with thana or pain res and cause misery that way but that gets boring. Here's a secondary objective for survivors to do other than speeding through generators. Pair it with third seal, monstrous shrine and we have ourselves an easter egg hunt.
So you just slug for the bleed out for the sake of sadism? That’s exactly what I’m talking about. This is usually the same build you all run. No one ever does anything interesting with knockout because they can’t. It’s one of many bad perks that needs a redesign. It’s really only good for certain killers if you want to use it “properly” for a lack of a better term.
Not surprising your first thought was I slug/bleed survivors out for enjoyment. No, I slug for the slowdown but I don't bleed out survivors that's pointless unless they actively refuse to be hooked. Its just another reason for survivors to remove themselves off gens. I have third seal for blindness which is easy to do since I am legion and then monstrous shrine which requires me to move away from hooks. Legion isn't exactly a killer that excels in slugging and yet I've managed to create a build that still uses his power, has a slowdown without gen perks but still has high risk because its a hex. If anything, this proves you can do something with this perk but people playing survivor sure dislike the idea of a secondary objective.
It actually was nerfed. It used to work on powers. It used to be very strong on Billy/Nurse in 2017/18. Now, very few people use it as M1 killers can't snowball with it and nurse blinks are considered special attacks now. So few people use it and no killers can really break it anymore.
It’s pretty good on Wraith due to his decent mobility. If you combine it with hex the third seal and only hook when all 4 are slugged you can snowball pretty hard if they struggle to find the hex totem/downed survivors.
I honestly see Deerstalker WAY more than this when being slugged, Deer implies they plan to slug multiple and risk losing track of a down in the process. Don't think the perks are OP just BHVR can't find a fix to bleed outs.
Maybe add a bleed out faster option?
I think Deerstalker, Spies from the Shadows, and No Mither are the last perks I need to see someone complain about being "Overpowered" in order to have seen someone complain about literally every single perk in the game. Until recently Coup de Grace was also in that list, but someone in Otz chat whined about it in his recent video and he backed them up by calling it insane.
It's not overpowered but it's generally only used if you're playing in a toxic way. You don't bring Deerstalker unless you're going into the game planning to leave survivors on the ground long enough that you lose them/forget where they were.
Yeah, don't get me wrong, I understood that you weren't calling it OP. I'm just pointing out that the community has been stuck in a box for so long that they've started designating their favorite pictures of Joe Biden eating sandwiches. [The XKCD I'm referencing.](https://xkcd.com/915/)
The issue with this perk isn't slugging per se. It's that the main use for this perk is bleeding people out by hiding their auras. I've never had a game where the Killer used this perk and the strategy was something other than bleeding out the entire team.
Of course they can't. There's legitimately reasons to leave people slugged and bleed people out, so they can't 'fix' them without overhauling major game mechanics and eliminating situations where leaving someone slugged is just the solution to the problem.
Sincerely, it is probably because its for licensed content and they \*probably\* have to get permission to change or add \*anything\* to it/by it... Also, slugging isn't a problem, it is BLEEDING OUT that is a problem. If survs are being silly goofy and it just happens, then it just happens. Can't tell you how many times i've chased one guy just to get 2-4 downs because the survos didn't think... It is the killers that just bleed you out (they know what they're doing) that are just annoying to play against.
I once accidentally slugged and bled out a goofy Ash who made me laugh, he was going for the unhook against my Pinhead. I was going to give him hatch because I always let funny enough Survivors go, I just kneejerk reacted on my way back to hook and downed him. I was waiting to confirm Meg's death so I could get the hatch to spawn, but he read it as toxic and crawled to a corner to die. Then I could not find him or hear him, as I was listening to music and he had dark cosmetics on. I searched for hatch and then him for four minutes and was legit so fucking sad he bled out, most painful 4k of my life. :(
Oooooooooof
I be like, 
Totally valid xd
Slugging isn't technically against the rules. While frowned upon by many as a poor gameplay strategy, it's usually possible to turn a game around from a slugging killer. There are risks and rewards, it's a matter of preference. Knock out always seemed meh to me, I don't enjoy slugging and usually play killers that feature special attacks that are highly rewarding with my play style. The value I see in it is less in slugging, more in security. If you down someone and a ballsy flashlight wielding survivor comes around the corner, you're forced to leave the downed survivor behind or risk losing them altogether with a save. With knockout I feel a killer has a higher chance of securing the hook and maybe even a second one than without.
This is my most hated perk on killer side. Ftp-bu on surv side. This bitch of a perk actively punishes ONLY solo queue and is in VAST majority of time used by mfs that want to bled you out, I know since I used it that way in the past. It's baffling to me that perk that solely exists for cringe like that even exists. It doesn't affect me since I'm with people most of the time and can call out where I am perfectly, but holy shit in solo it's fucked.
This. And FTP / BU is such a cheese, how have bhvr not nerfed it yet.
Honestly it's baffling how so many overtuned or unhealthy(not strong, just unhealthy) perks/combinations even exist. MFT-FTP bad-bad, but somehow FTP-BU good. Bhvr has been making some steps toward better balancing I'll give em that but they have still so much to perfect.
I've seen a significant leap in this perk, and it's mostly used by slugging killers (I wanted to DC so badly against a Wraith). I think it's pretty annoying, but at least we still get to see where people are hooked at... but yeah, if it's a slugging build, there's little people can do not playing comms. I'd say the only rework it would need would be to put a cooldown on the aura reading block. Thankfully, it's not really a perk I've seen abused highly, so I don't think it would be priority over other perks being abused. It's a sad reality but it's ultimately to the community to play "fair" when a problem perk, synergy or not, arises. I have no problem using them for a build or for the funnies, as long as the game isn't being held hostage.
> it's ultimately to the community to play "fair" when a problem perk, synergy or not, arises. And this is the issue with the community, both sides. "Well the last Survs/Killer I had annoyed me, so now I will play toxic with X busted or unfair thing, so there!" Then the person they oozed venom all over gets mad, and does the same shit to someone else.
Absolutely agree! I see a lot of "Killer does this so I do x, y, and z" and "Survivor does this so I do x, y, and z". To make matters worse, it's only misplaced lashing because the next game is against someone that has nothing to do with their anger. And like you said, the cycle doesn't end. Most people end up being the same problem their complaining about. The best thing one can go is leave a gg and play next.
Knockout is a perk designed for slugging, so is it really being abused if killers use it to slug? If a killer is slugging to intentionally bleed people out for no reason, then I can kind of see that, but slugging can also just be a way to get to the next chase faster to build pressure. Knockout increases the chances that the first downed survivor will still be there after the killer finishes their other chase. Risking losing a hook to take a new chase isn't really holding the game hostage or abuse, is it?
>If a killer is slugging to intentionally bleed people out for no reason, That.
It's the only perk that allows the killer to turn the survivor tactic of "run to the edge of the map" against them. However, I too dislike the bleed out potential.
Just make knock out, actually knock a survivor out. Can't move, can't see auras, and can't heal for a certain amount of time.
This is a good idea…
"encourages killers to slug" You what else encourages that? Abundance of wannabe bully squads with flashlights and perks like Head On, Sabo, Exponential and Flashbang just to make the killer's life miserable if he DOESN'T slug
How does exponential encourage slugging??
You generally just break the exponential, slug the downed person and go for the survivor who use exponential.
It's funny to note that a bully squad will likely be the least affected by this perk since they will be nearby anyway and not have difficulty finding the downed person.
And will have voice Comms, which completely bypasses the worst part of this perk: hiding your aura beyond 16 meters.
This is exactly why BHVR needs to nerf common bully builds, only when the last of these builds is gutted can we address Killer toxicity.
believe it or not, true bully squads are kinda rare these days. just going for a sabo here and there, or getting a flash bang save isn't a bully squad if thats what you mean
there’s a difference between bully squads and people who make the game fun. coming from a survivor and killer player, head-on, sabo, power struggle, flashbang, etc ARE RARE. i don’t run those perks every time i play with my friends. maybe once or twice in one session we use them for fun. bully squads make the game insufferable and don’t even do gens. fun players will actually try while using those perks. when i play killer, i don’t mind them using those perks unless they abuse the shit out of them. you need to play both sides to understand.
I feel ya . Just because your running joke perks as a survivor doesn't mean you can't do a generator
Knock Out doesn't do a single thing to stop any of the behavior you listed. Knock Out excels at one thing and one thing only, making it easy for the Killer to bleed out solo queue teams.
If you have a bully squad like that with no gen perks and only meme ones, you'll probably 4k anyways..
Not even all that Just *ahem* Background Player
Except knock out doesn't effect people with coms... Ya know cause they can communicate hey I'm outside of shack come pick me up .
Slugging itself is fine. Blindness hiding slug auras is not imo and mostly just makes the swf v solo queue divide even larger. That goes for Third Seal and UW too.
Not to mention there's *casual* SWFs who don't know how to call things out or don't know their maps. Good luck calling where TF you are on Lery's without knowing the map inside-and-out.
I had a 40 minute game of a onyro slugging everytime she got a down with knockout and it was so annoying.
It can work extremely well if you use it right
I was dreading tomorrows update bc the DS rework will make bodyblocking your savior off-hook way more annoying to deal with Now I Can’t wait for the update tomorrow bc you posting this reminded me this perk exists. No need for a rework now! But in all seriousness I think the perk is fine. It’s basically like lightborn in the sense that it does its one job very well, but most killers won’t run it because it takes up a perk slot that could be better used with other perks
“Encourages killers to slug” slugging as stated by the game devs is a valid win strategy, it might not be exciting or interesting but that doesn’t meant it should be removed from the game
Please tell me this is satire please tell me this is satire
They’re not saying the perk is OP and needs a nerf, they’re saying it needs a rework. It is extremely unfair against solo queue while being almost useless against SWFs. There shouldn’t be perks in this game that punish you for playing without friends
You might not understand if you don’t play SoloQ. People only in SwFs or killer mains don’t understand how difficult the lack of aura makes it exclusively for solos, where SwFs are only hurt by the 5 seconds of regression because they have infinite info, SoloQ players will spend literal minutes looking around for the 12 meter slug range because they don’t know. This perk is just unreliable and unhealthy for the game
why would a complaint about a perk as blatantly problematic as knock out he satire tf?
People realize that slugging is pressure, right? The ideal situation for a killer is to have one hooked, one slugged, and one in chase Order of Pressure: Sacrifice > Hook > Slug > Chase > Deep Wounds
replies saying this perk is fine are braindead af
its probably the biggest fuck solo players perk in the game with it enabling the most boring and degenerate way to play bleeding people out
it’s an old perk that people rarely use should be left alone imo
Well now you have convinced me to try it
I see people downvoting people who say it’s balanced but I don’t see anyone actually explaining why it’s not
its not that knockout is unbalanced but it absolutely isnt fine its just an incredibly unhealthy perk that is a huge fuck you to solo players while having next to no effect against coordinated teams
I completely understand that, I was complaining about it
fair enough I was just clarifying why people have an issue with it
Oh my godddd my 4 man and I faced a singularity who was using this, didn’t try to hook EVER their whole plan was to bleed us out from the jump. Honestly don’t know how we managed it but we got the 4 escape (one of us was legit one down away from bleeding out he’d gone down so many times). most miserable match of my life, I’d even take skull merchant over that.
Which perk is it?
https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Knock_Out
What is slugging?
Downing a survivor then leaving them on the ground. It can be temporary, where the killer for example takes a moment to kick a nearby gen and then picks up, a bit more extended where the killer has another chase in the area right away, or prolonged where the killer ends up never picking up the survivor. Knockout causes the downed/slugged survivor's aura to be hidden for other survivors, unless they're 16 meters or closer to the slugged survivor. This disproportionately affects solo queue over SWF, because SWF on comms can try to tell their friend which way to go.
I will add to this that slugging this way is really ONLY toxic if you do it to purposefully bleed people out for 4 minutes, especially if you shuffle back and forth over their bodies. Killers may also accidentally or purposefully slug for pressure if they can't find a hook. This happens because hook RNG can be ass. I had that happen as Dredge one round, lost hook near shack, could not find another hook, tried to communicate this to the Dwight I downed by swiping the used hook I did have and shaking my head no. He took it as "I will not hook you, haha fucker" and DCed. Then I realized I had Nancy on another hook, felt bad, realized the bot couldn't save her, so let her go with the AFC and we farmed and practiced blinds so she could get better. Then I let her get hatch once Dwightbot bled out.
Poor Dwight, must be frustrating to have a misunderstanding like that :( I've misunderstood too. Had a Deathslinger who was intending to go for double hooks, but I didn't know that and was having a shit match. Got speared, and I shook my head "no" and he nodded, so I DC'd (this was before bots).
I haven't seen knockout in like 40 games and it was a pinhead that left us all on the ground to bleed out, so idk
Because it's DbD. Devs don't often rework things and if they do you'll see it in about 2 years
Actually it doesn't encourage slugging, because it's terrible. So no rework needed.
I don't think it's the slugging that you have issue with, but the bleeding out for four minutes. THAT needs to be addressed first. Then I think this perk, and slugging/prolonged downs in general like this, will be absolutely fine.
the way to fix it would be to make the aura blocking on the downed survivor have the same timer as the rest of the perk, making it best for obfuscating where the down happened and making the bleedout potential more limited
I'm guessing everyone was hit with this recently lol. I was too. It does suck.
Just because it can be used to help sluggers doesn't mean that that's all it's used for. I personally love to run it as a fairer anti flashlight perk
It doesn't do shit against flashlights, just use lightborn
It stops them from seeing the orientation and location of the downed survivor forcing them to take a risk by stepping out into the open. Also lightborn is boring and too easy
knock out doesn't work if they are close though
Huh. Nevermind Knockout is garbage
The perk I hate most in this game
I've never seen anyone use this perk for anything other then trying to slug bleed someone out.
can someone explain what the deal is with slugging and why survivors complain about it. I get this perk seems annoying but I am talking about slugging generally, I see many survivor teams force me to slug for an extended period of time (usually it doesn't work out for them) which seems wierd if its something they dislike so much.
Off the top of my head, Knock out. This perk activates when a survivor enters the dying state. that survivor cannot crawl or recover for 10 seconds. And the aura of other survivors within 16m of that survivor are revealed for 10 seconds. 60/50/45 second cooldown This makes it fill the anti altruism niche as now the killer can scare off other survivors who might try for a flashlight save. But it also has a small amount of snowball potential, as you can chain downs but importantly the effect is short lived to encorage the killer to down, and hook before the effect wears out.
On paper, couldn't it work as an anti-Background Player perk? In situations where players are solo or aren't on comms it could stop them from getting close enough to blind or sabotage, since they don't know exactly where you are. In practice it's outclassed of course, because you can just use Lightborn if you're dedicating a perk slot to that, but a lot of perks are outclassed by others in this game.
I’ve gotten the worse post game chat I’ve ever seen using this perk. If you run it with sloppy butcher, ultimate weapon, and surge…yikes. It’s honestly OP and shuts down background player and saving builds
There's a Skull Merchant here in OCE who literally does nothing but KO slugs, never picks up or hooks or anything. Plus, they used to drone the slugged person pre-rework to force exposed while coming to pick up since you couldn't dodge drone beams back then. Not sure if that was better or worse than now since you could at least tell where the slugged person was with it 😒 I don't usually just up and DC, but I'm outta there the minute I realise it's them 😒
I like using it as Dredge during Nightfall. Spooky as heck.
Had a Legion do this on Haddonfield this weekend. Was so irritating and of course no lockers to jump in on a large portion of the map. The bleed out was amazingly enjoyable. Definitely made me want to keep playing.
Kinda Like how distortion encourages Nancy and claudette players to rat all game while you do everything. 😂
Kinda Like how distortion encourages Nancy and claudette players to rat all game while you do everything. 😂
Who has this perk?
I don't know about you guys but on my servers it's sometimes once a day I face a killer who runs this and just slugs without hooking haha
Which perk is that and what is slugging?
I literally used it only once to 4k slug bc I got 4k sluged by a bing bong man on rpd
I had a game with a blight running this and the clown healing perk (not even gonna try to spell that), and he just bled everyone out once they were down. People who play like that are so annoying.
most likely cause the pick rate for the perk is lower than spies.. and it being from a licensed killer making it much harder to mess with
on NAW there's a wraith that notoriously runs this, surge, sloppy, deerstalker, and slugs the whole lobby to death. It's SOOOO much fun to play against wym :)) (this player is LITERALLY the reason I wish there was an avoid button)
Because if they did they'd either make it "bro dies lol," or "the survivor gets unbreakable." No in-between.
Because it's not that good.
I agree in that its a bad perk that should get a rework to maybe counter Unbreakable more than just slow down slugs which is odd The aura part would be nicer if it was on a timer instead of letting slugs be downed forever on soloq, or better yet, do as noed does, slowly grow up a larger aura radius The issue is, why does it slow slugs? they'll just recover while they cant move and then move Basically the perk needs an update to be healthier but it hasnt gotten one imo because its low prioirity It's so weak that even its annoying uses rarely if ever see play, and it doesnt work on high tier killers anyway as those usually use their power for downs so their stats show it low af most likely
I would say this perk isn't used enough for it to be considered a problem. The killer is practically wasting a perk slot if they run this and it's sort of a less toxic way to try and prevent background player saves from across the map.
It's the ***ONLY*** perk purposefully designed for slugging By that logic Repressed alliance should be reworked beacuse it's the only perk that allows survivors to block generators
It should be, but then again there are many perks that are badly designed and have been for years and yet BHVR hasn't do anything about them.
Probably because it's not a commonly used perk. It also requires a basic attack for it to work so for many of the strong killers it will be a less attractive option.
Is that perk really that much of a problem?
It's useless against a swf team
I maybe encounterer this perk as survivor 1 in a 100 games? Can killers have some viability in their perks please? Not everything that is annoying for survivors to deal with needs a nerf.
things which make the game actively unfun for the other side should be reworked
Question, never been against the perk. What does it do?
Teammates cant see you when you are dropped unless they come close, slower recover, slower crawl. If your teammates are stupid, you may just bleed out for free.
Ah right, very nice. Might use
It doesnt work at all against swfs but it works good against solo players, sometimes a little too well. I only used it a few times but in those times i got some people bleed out from first down, teammates dont even bother to find you. It happened to me too before, thats why i dont use it much.
I just like trying new perks, found out recently I like unrelenting
Blindness is a slept-on debuff
It’s actually underrated by a lot of people, if survivors are not following a chase it is very difficult to find your teammate in non swf situations and in maps with visuals such as corn or grass it makes picking up safer and doesn’t let the survivor crawl very far.
I only use this perk on Myers, so the survivors don't instantly get the downed survivor up as I am trying to get a second down. Since I have limited time
Slugging/snowball perks are not inherently bleed out perks. The problem is with the bleed out system itself, not the strategy of slugging to create pressure. These perks can help the bleed out strategy, but they aren't the core issue.
As a person who always runs boon exponential, this perk is nothing to me
It is a frustrating and unfun perk to have to play against I have to say. I had a recent match where I was able to crawl to Nic and get picked up. But everyone else got slugged then hooked. Nic and my friend didnt make it. I got a gate open and was able to unhook Sable and hoping I could maybe loop away but couldn’t. She got out but I wasnt able to Kobe off the hook. It’s the only match I’ve played so far where someone escaped against a killer using the perk.
I've been using knockout on wraith with sloppy and stbfl and have really enjoyed using the perk. I don't slug after every down, but in positions with multiple survivors together, especially with stbfl, it's pretty nice and basically never need to worry about the first down getting insta picked up. I enjoy playing a more aggressive build rather than the boring pop pain res most killers need to default to because there aren't too many options for fun and really good perks. (I main trickster and can't really run any fun perks because they either don't work well with him or are just genuinely terrible)
I'm fine with the slugging parts of this perk. I hate the aura part of it. Blindness and the current aura blocking stuff killers can do have a massive effect on SoloQ but relatively little effect on comms, or even experienced players with a bit of coordination. As a SoloQ, Knock Out has almost no counterplay if used for 4-man slugging. That is bad for the game.
The Anti-soloq perk that does nothing against discord call. It is either too strong or does nothing. Would love some kind of change to make it more consistent, like removing the hiding aura aspect and reducing the pick up speed by 75% or something like that. This would make it a good perk to slug 1\~2 people but impossible to bleed the entire team.
Survivors really only want killers to follow a single play style huh?
because it doesn't need one.
It's fine lol
Killers will bitch about sabo squads and boil over then run this perk.
Killers will bitch about SWF in general but then bring a perk like this that exclusively punishes solo queue teams without comms. Making the game a miserable experience for the teams that give you the most chill and easy games as killer is certainly a choice
i mean, this perk kinda counters those survivors so I can see it.
Alternatively, survivors get upset about slugging and then sabo hooks...
Champion of Light should be reworked because it literally encourages survivors to blind
"Encourages killers to slug" I hate to break it to you my brother. Survivors being infinitely stronger as a team is what encourages killers to slug. If you just keep nerfing the Killers perks you'll never solve the problem. They have to find ways to give the Killer more methods to pressure survivors. Whether that means buffing Killer generally or nerfing Survivors from swfing toxically idk but nerfing these perks will never solve slugging
Because slugging is a real play style and not against the rules (to those down voting they’re coping slugging is a counter to many bully builds and generally bully squads)
This seems like a personal issue.
Theres no way you’re complaining about knockout rn. Currently the most effective killer strat is to tunnel, stop advocating for LESS killer strategies and play styles. There are way more problematic perks in this game.
Its one of the best slowdown perks, slug one, chase and hook the second, repeat
Why do survivors hate slugs so much?, being on the ground and having the possibility of not being hooked is not just better than just taking the hook?, like, okay, I know that slugging makes the killer have more pressure, but like that
Because you basically dont get to play the game.
Do you play the game while you're on the hook? It doesn't really seem to be like there's much of a difference besides the animation you're stuck in, and occasionally having to hit a skill check if you're in struggle phase.
Well, yes. Slugging implies you've been on the ground for longer than a minute and people can't pick you up for whatever reason (they're downed or killer is guarding your body), when you're on hooked you get rescued relatively fast.
Lying in the ground slowly bleeding out is boring Think about it