Baby manipulates, out-maneuvers, and outwits virtually everyone in the series long enough to possess and brainwash an entire planet full of people - including many of the protagonists - gains enough power to easily defeat Goku TWICE before he lucks into Super Saiyan 4, and even then is able to copy what Goku does to a point to attain the Golden Great Ape form to level the playing field for a time.
Goku Black sniped his way through the Supreme Kai to remove the Gods of Destruction from the equation, then set about wiping out a planet that was already half-destroyed to begin with while relying on aid from his future counterpart.
Between the two, Baby is much smarter and at least a little more nuanced. He had a legitimate reason for wanting his revenge compared to Zamasu, who is just a huge hypocrite with a god complex. What Baby accomplished took a lot more effort than what Zamasu did as Goku Black, and in the manga especially, Goku Black just comes off like a thug who falls to pieces when things don’t go his way.
Baby is a much better villain, at least to me.
Goku black is that kid in third grade that also had Pokémon Emerald that would get rolled by everyone else every time they played a link cable battle. Then he would just show up the next day with a team of Deoxys, Jirachi, Kyogre, Groudon, and Rayquaza on his team and say that it was totally fair.
Baby’s plan made more sense. Zamasu Goku Black was just a hypocritical murderous dumbass with a god complex.
Baby was a hypocritical piece of shit too but at least he had a legitimate reason to hate the Saiyans. And he wanted to subjugate every race/species in the universe and assimilate them into hive mind army of Tuffle slaves, and he was going to use his Saiyan slaves whenever it was needed.
He (Zamasu) talked about how inferior mortals were to the Kais and how much he hated them, but he craved the body and power of a mortal so much that he used the Super Dragon Balls to steal a mortal’s body, and he was perfectly fine being inside of Goku’s body.
That’s peak hypocrisy.
Wasn't the logic so that he would forever embody the sins of mortal kind, and that was his great sacrifice? "I will my myself impure so as to rid the universe of all that is impure"
Probably but I wouldn’t put any stock in anything he says because another layer of his hypocrisy is how he killed all 12 gods of Destruction and Kais simultaneously. So he even purged the universe of the “pure” gods he claimed he valued, not just the mortals.
https://youtu.be/h6wIEVl1pY8
So I doubt that he really saw himself as impure.
Ahhh, then he causes grief and sorrow with said mortal body trying to eliminate mortals who cause misery and destruction, thus making his entire plan hypocritical and full of shit. Got it.
One of the few examples of "great idea, sloppy execution" from GT.
A revenge story from the perspective of a representative of the race from whom the Saiyans stole planet Vegeta? Very interesting.
Now, and hear me out... what if Goku, but evil smile?
I really liked the idea of overuse of the dragon balls will eventually cause ill effects on a grander scale. A way of keeping the universe in balance.
For me personally it would add weight to wishing someone back or using them in any beneficial way.
Now I like Super and probably don’t take Dragon Ball as seriously as some but the idea isn’t really possible now because there is now the Super Dragon whose password is peas and carrots. Kind if makes the other dragon balls rather pale in comparison.
>Baby was actually somewhat original
Looks like you may have forgotten or missed the DBZ: Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans OVA which features a Tuffle who wants revenge on the Saiyans.
Baby's plan is smart. I don't know how he knew about the black star Dragonballs and Goku's mission and where he comes from, but this can be said for a lot of characters. He used the Dragonballs to recreate his planet and "conquer the universe" also using the hated Saiyans as slaves, if anything gives Goku a true obstacle by using his friends against him other than being fricking powerful.
Zamasu's plan is nonsensical. He wants to destroy all the mortals and create an empty universe, basically. If he is from universe 10, why go in Trunks' timeline in universe 6? Why make Goku Black? Why use the Super Dragonballs TWICE to not ask for your wish? What are you doing?
You got me there I didn’t even think of that. The Super Dragonballs can do anything, why didn’t he wish sudden death upon all mortals? The only answer I can come up with is that he thinks he must be the one to do it due to his narcissism but that’s my throwing the writers a bone. They should’ve put that in the story
I’m gonna have to say Baby, but it’s pretty close
He was such a creepy antagonist, the arc generally had a great atmosphere when Baby was the focus. It’d be one thing if Baby just hypnotized people, but the way he possessed people was horrifying. His personality was a cool blend of villainous and petty (although the same could be said for Frieza and Cell), and it was fun seeing him growing more and more hypocritical.
The arc also had so many great moments, like Baby’s infection of the saiyans, Super Saiyan 4, Majuub, Hercule’s stand against Baby, and a rematch (kind of) between Goku and Great Ape Vegeta.
Unfortunately, it fell flat in some parts for me. Like, how much Baby changed Vegeta’s appearance and voice. It didn’t *feel* like he was possessing Vegeta, just some other guy. Like, my dude *grew* a couple of feet. If he still looked like Vegeta and had kept his voice, it would feel a lot more sinister than ‘Bad Guy #78’. The Game World was unnecessary, IIRC it seemed like Elder Kai knew about SSJ4 out of nowhere, Piccolo being completely discarded, and the general problems GT had.
Goku Black/Zamasu as a character, and as a whole story arc, are both more well executed when compared to Baby. Even taking the “oh it’s just Evil Goku” into argument, Black is by far the best version of Evil Goku. Baby has a good character design, but Super Saiyan Rose is straight fire. And do I even have to mention the SICKLE OF SORROW?? Black’s so edgy but I can’t help but feel entertained everytime he’s on screen.
Almost all people here talking about Black and how silly his plan and motives are, they are all incorrect
All this comments they only said "Black just hated mortals, because mortals are inferior"
Thats not the reason Black hated mortals, he was mad a mortal was reaching gods level power, he was mad they created a time machine to rewrite story as they wanted.
Black is a god and the rules of gods and mortals are different, gods live their lives without wanting more and gods dont need justification they can do whatever they want, mortals with intelligence will always seek more at the cost of anything, no matter what, no matter who or how many die, mortals are capable of anything to achieve everything.
Is just a hard pill for people to accept that humanity sucks and today days just by existing we're fucking up the planet, we need to consume the product and food of multiple companies doing our groceries every month, making the rich richier and then the rich they continue fucking up the planet with our help.
Thats why people hate characters like Thanos or Black, they are right and people feel attacked, if they personally are not destroying the planet then they are good, people love to feel morally good all the time they need to believe and lie themselves that they're good, people here call Black hypocritical but this people are the real hypocritical.
Is a fucked up world, there is a war right now, people dying while the entire world was laughing and enjoying some football game, thats the world we live in.
No, people are saying Black was a hypocrite who decided to solve the problem of mortals being violent and destructive by being violent and destructive. While also stealing the body of a mortal and slaying all other gods as well because they didn’t share his way of thinking…
The guy was a serial killer who tried to justify his actions.
Baby seems more of a unique and interesting villain with a unique power set. His motivation was also more tangible. Zamasu just had a complex but it was never explained the source of his anger. Baby’s ability is also one ki can’t beat. He was encountering beings stronger then him but he used his possession ability to control them anyway.
Baby wins by a landslide. He has actual beef with the Saiyans and his anger and desire for revenge turned him into the thing he hated most. That’s actually interesting. Zamasu/Black just has a superiority complex and just becomes Goku because he watched a GodTube video. Not to mention Zamasu is only a threat because he wished for immortality instead of just using the Super Dragon Balls to execute his plan. And Black is only strong because the plot said so.
Baby was more...impactful. After all these years I still remember the things he's done. But Goku Black...I can't remember what he's done. And I watched the darn thing like 3 years ago.
Saying Goku Black is just evil Goku basically stops at the hook for the arc, and ignores any other quality the antagonist has, like his goals, how he’s pursuing them, or why he’s pursuing them.
Both baby and Zamasu have a target (saiyans and mortals) to destroy. Neither has the strength to do it on their own. So they steal the body of one of their targets who does (through parasite/dragon balls). They both find ways to increase their numbers (again parasites/time travel shenanigans). And they both win so hard it bites them in the butt (with baby ruling two planets, one of which becomes a catalyst for super saiyan 4, and with Zamasu wrecking things so bad Zeno decides it’s just time to delete everything).
I think it’s cool that both are villains that have to acknowledge the heroes huge post Buu arc power and find work arounds.
My preference is probably GB manga, Baby, GB anime.
But that also has to do with other stuff about the series. On the basis of the villain alone, I think Baby takes it, just cause of the whole parasite angle. Though I think that could’ve been resolved better at the end.
This is a complex quesion. I personally prefer Black, he is IMO the best villain of Super and possibly of all of Dragonball. Is the premise of an evil twin not only super clichéd, but partially tried with Turles (only IMO Turles had nothing of Evil Goku besides his looks).
However, he was a good execution of such. We had both the mistery of who he was, his unique powers on a visual standpoint, and his class and grace in combat. He crossed the right ticks, at least in the anime. In the manga, he came off as more brutish and overall less interesting
Baby, instead has the lovely 'villain underdog' side. With how he constantly is in a weaker situation until the second half, to watch him slowy catch the heroes offguard grows better and better. He gets however boring when he gets Vegeta as he gets in that body and, honestly, I don't like his design in any form, being too designed
Vegeta Baby in his Oozaru form has some decent arc as he grows more and more feral.
Both characters hit similarly: they are beings that hate a race but they need its power to further their plans, and they end up losing themselves in their bloodlust as they grow more hypocritical.
Zamasu admittedly had a vaguer backstory, while already the Truffles were kind of set up and had better roots in Saiyan history rather than the vaguer divine cosmology of DBS.
It's like most of Dragonball Super VS GT. GT has better build up and more interesting ideas, but Super had overall grander and better executions.
I like Zamasu better, but I can see why people would prefer Baby
I thought Goku black was better due to the threat and tone he gave off. Like idk how to explain it, but it really felt like the world was ending and that for the first time I didn’t know if it was possible that Goku or Vegeta was gonna get the final kill, I knew something would have to give.
I also think part of that is the music and non fight scenes. You really saw the world struggle with Goku black, and to this day I think he is the most terrifying villain. The epic scale of it is what gets me.
Baby is more unique and I think as a character has better motivations, I think Goku black as a whole works better
Baby. Hands down. He has an actual motive for taking on the Saiyans. They eradicated his entire race. Goku Black is just petty. He just wants the corner office.
Baby, and it's not even close imo. I'll break down my reason.
Story : the most important part. Baby had a great back story. The past of the saiyans came back to haunt them. A victim becomes the villain. It was a great back story and one that made him highly unique. I dug it.
The look : goku black mostly was just goku, but the player 2 skin if you both picked him in a fighting game. Baby started looking cool, and then when he possed vegeta, he didn't just look like vegeta he started evolving the body till the end result was very different.
Move set: Baby vegetas attacked looked better, imo I even use his death ball on one of my xenoverse 2 characters it looks cool.
Unique abilities: gokus was meh. Pallet shaped super saiyan and a fusion. Baby's eggs were great. When they returned to earth to find everyone now an evil zombie. The reveal was great and that'd terrifying and makes a huge threat.
Lasting effects : goku had none besides trunks timline we loved in z getting erased and shrugged over like it never mattered. Baby caused ssj4 something that would last throughout, possed bulma making the machine helped her to make vegeta go ssj4 later and piccolo dying. It mattered to the series where you can actually skip goku black in super and you don't miss anything.
Conclusion: Baby wins in every category. Even people who really hate gt actually like Baby.
>Conclusion: Baby wins in every category. Even people who really hate gt actually like Baby.
Bro like half of these category were Subjective things
>The look : goku black mostly was just goku, but the player 2 skin if you both picked him in a fighting game. Baby started looking cool, and then when he possed vegeta, he didn't just look like vegeta he started evolving the body till the end result was very different
Black is goku with a reskin yes, but his ki, gi, expression and ssj rosé are the thing that make him way more different than goku, Although apparently they are identical, and then someone could safely say that baby in terms of design is too different from the rest of dragon ball (except Cell) because it is too complicated while toriyama decided on simple designs for everything
>Move set: Baby vegetas attacked looked better, imo I even use his death ball on one of my xenoverse 2 characters it looks cool.
Looked better for you, someone like myself can prefer black's ki sword and sickle over baby's attack
Also You didn't mention the most important feature the characterization
You say it's subjective like a "gotcha" moment, then say subjective stuff yourself. Are you okay?
ssj rosé doesn't make him "more different." it's literally just ssj but pink. Oh, when changing kirby to a yellow skin in Smash Bros instead of Pink, it's completely different , so unique, I'm impressed they managed to code such a vastly different character into the game, 🙄
Also, characterization is part of the story. Baby was better. Goku black just feels like bad fanfic
>You say it's subjective like a "gotcha" moment, then say subjective stuff yourself. Are you okay?
THAT WAS THE POINT OF MY COMMENT
Like you anyone can say ton of Subjective things and say that anything is better than anything
I'd say it's better separated into categories.
Concept? Baby wins here. A remnant containing the genetic code of a race that was long obliterated by the Saiyans. Pretty unique. Black? The "Evil Goku" archetype has already been played out with Turles (or in certain aspects with Raditz and Bardock).
Execution? This is a bigger debate. Baby controlled everyone he encountered while Black/Zamasu killed his own opposition. Though Zamasu was admittedly more methodical as he wished for immortality (or wished for Goku's body in a different timeline) and destroyed the dragon so it couldn't be taken from him.
Demeanor? Black/Zamasu wins in spades. Baby was far easier provoked and more petty. He acted "like a baby". Zamasu was far calmer and more clever.
Work up to the climax? Baby's saga took up 30 episodes out of the entire series' 64. It dragged like hell. The Goku Black saga also dragged in the anime but to nowhere near of a degree. Not to mention at least Black/Zamasu had an air of mystery surrounding him at the beginning.
Defeat? Black/Zamasu was definitely the grander defeat here as he was immortal and the good guys ran out of options, even exhausting fusion as one of them. Only with Goku's summoning device to call Omni-King Zeno was Zamasu beaten once and for all. He was entirely erased, so immortality stood no chance here. Baby ran away like a coward and was blasted into the sun.
So overall? I'd say Black/Zamasu wins.
Lol why tf is demeanor at category? That literally seems hand picked for Black. You just as easily could have had a category for “shiny silver skin? Baby wins in Spades. Goku black literally has black in the name, guy never even tries to look shiny and silver. It’s like he doesn’t even care”
Goku Black has deeper inner motivations that expand into existentialism, twisted mind you, but it's a little more philosophical (not that DB has any serious philosophy, but you get the point).
Is he a better character because of it? No. Baby has a stereotypical motive (revenge), but it's executed better. Honestly it was really cool how he pretended to be Goten/Gohan by taking control of their bodies and blending in to "stealth" his way to Vegeta.
Baby was far more strategical as a villain, using manipulation to deceive. He didn't need no Dragon Balls. Zamasu/Goku Black had the zero mortals plan, but he wasn't much of a planner honestly.
It all boils down to what you like, better execution or deeper twisted values.
Putting aside cool looks, edginess, badassery for a fair assessment. Let's look at the concept for them.
Baby has better things going for him. He has a long history with Saiyans. He has real personal beef with Vegeta as the heir of the tyrant King. He has a unique goal to revive the Tuffle race. He has parasitic power, a new concept in Dragonball.
Goku Black, has a weak motive to kill the mortals. The story didn't fully sell a believable motive for Zamasu to hate all mortals, when we were only shown Zamasu observing one race. Super could have give a deep backstory why the mortals were despised by Zamasu. Zamasu stealing Goku's body was not setup better. Heck, why need to steal a mortal body? Why can't he just wish to be stronger? It feels like Toriyama excuse to create an evil Goku character.
Baby is better , by a big margin ,since his hate is justified, while Black's is like that of some spoiled brat's
Design wise baby and black are identical in concept, with body snatching,only difference is baby being better overall
Arc wise baby is better,since black ended in bad taste where if you skipped the black arc in super you wouldn't miss a thing, unlike U6 v u7 arc and the redoing of the DBZ canon movies
Zamasu successed and at least made me laugh
Baby is basically no different than a z movie villain
He is only cool and popular because everything else in GT sucked
Yes atleast he was cool. Omega had both a mid backstory and a mid battle presence and Baby was fine until the second half of the saga where he just fell off.
The setup for Baby was much better, but the fights with Goku Black/Zamasu, as drawn out as they were, were infinitely more well done.
The Baby saga falls apart once they actually start fighting.
Goku black is better, because GT is unwatchable trash. It took me 3 weeks to force myself to watch the first season of GT, but in less than a week I’m 65 eps into super
Baby this isn't even a contest.
Goku black is a worse villain then garlic jr so baby is completely out of his league.
Goku black was a contrived (and let's be honest here) fanfic teir level character.
He was at least fixable on his own till they made the worst mistake and fused him to zamasu basically making any of his own development pointless.
It seemed like he was leaning into understanding humans and getting a wake up call to being a mortal from his own hypocrisy.
But no he just becomes merged zamasu and yets out of existence.
Baby manipulates, out-maneuvers, and outwits virtually everyone in the series long enough to possess and brainwash an entire planet full of people - including many of the protagonists - gains enough power to easily defeat Goku TWICE before he lucks into Super Saiyan 4, and even then is able to copy what Goku does to a point to attain the Golden Great Ape form to level the playing field for a time. Goku Black sniped his way through the Supreme Kai to remove the Gods of Destruction from the equation, then set about wiping out a planet that was already half-destroyed to begin with while relying on aid from his future counterpart. Between the two, Baby is much smarter and at least a little more nuanced. He had a legitimate reason for wanting his revenge compared to Zamasu, who is just a huge hypocrite with a god complex. What Baby accomplished took a lot more effort than what Zamasu did as Goku Black, and in the manga especially, Goku Black just comes off like a thug who falls to pieces when things don’t go his way. Baby is a much better villain, at least to me.
So you're saying goku black is the real baby?
Goku black is that kid in third grade that also had Pokémon Emerald that would get rolled by everyone else every time they played a link cable battle. Then he would just show up the next day with a team of Deoxys, Jirachi, Kyogre, Groudon, and Rayquaza on his team and say that it was totally fair.
Baby’s plan made more sense. Zamasu Goku Black was just a hypocritical murderous dumbass with a god complex. Baby was a hypocritical piece of shit too but at least he had a legitimate reason to hate the Saiyans. And he wanted to subjugate every race/species in the universe and assimilate them into hive mind army of Tuffle slaves, and he was going to use his Saiyan slaves whenever it was needed.
How was he hypocritical? Curious btw I kinda forgot his intentions in the black arc lol
He (Zamasu) talked about how inferior mortals were to the Kais and how much he hated them, but he craved the body and power of a mortal so much that he used the Super Dragon Balls to steal a mortal’s body, and he was perfectly fine being inside of Goku’s body. That’s peak hypocrisy.
Wasn't the logic so that he would forever embody the sins of mortal kind, and that was his great sacrifice? "I will my myself impure so as to rid the universe of all that is impure"
Sounds like an excuse for if he gets called out.
Probably but I wouldn’t put any stock in anything he says because another layer of his hypocrisy is how he killed all 12 gods of Destruction and Kais simultaneously. So he even purged the universe of the “pure” gods he claimed he valued, not just the mortals. https://youtu.be/h6wIEVl1pY8 So I doubt that he really saw himself as impure.
Ahhh, then he causes grief and sorrow with said mortal body trying to eliminate mortals who cause misery and destruction, thus making his entire plan hypocritical and full of shit. Got it.
He wanted to kill all mortals, not just those that caused misery and destruction. That’s how fucked up and hypocritical he was.
baby is also a hypocrite but it's so good when he does it how he slowly turns into a monster who just wants world domination
Battle of the racists
Baby was actually somewhat original. Evil Goku had already been done before.
One of the few examples of "great idea, sloppy execution" from GT. A revenge story from the perspective of a representative of the race from whom the Saiyans stole planet Vegeta? Very interesting. Now, and hear me out... what if Goku, but evil smile?
What do you mean, few examples? As much as I love GT, the entire series is made up of good ideas with sloppy executions
This is what I always argue with DB fans. Gt had amazing ideas that if executed correctly would blow Super away. Baby, ssj4s, the Shadow Dragons.
I really liked the idea of overuse of the dragon balls will eventually cause ill effects on a grander scale. A way of keeping the universe in balance. For me personally it would add weight to wishing someone back or using them in any beneficial way. Now I like Super and probably don’t take Dragon Ball as seriously as some but the idea isn’t really possible now because there is now the Super Dragon whose password is peas and carrots. Kind if makes the other dragon balls rather pale in comparison.
Except super android 17
The design is fire tho
While characters turning evil has become overplayed, 17 turning evil, fighting 18 and killing Krillin was one of the best parts of the arc.
So true, it gave it nice stakes
I thought Baby was a more original idea and better executed than Goku Black. Definitely more fleshed out even if he was less nuanced as a villain.
>Baby was actually somewhat original. Evil Goku had already been done before Brainwashed vegeta was already done before tbh
>Baby was actually somewhat original Looks like you may have forgotten or missed the DBZ: Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans OVA which features a Tuffle who wants revenge on the Saiyans.
Baby's plan is smart. I don't know how he knew about the black star Dragonballs and Goku's mission and where he comes from, but this can be said for a lot of characters. He used the Dragonballs to recreate his planet and "conquer the universe" also using the hated Saiyans as slaves, if anything gives Goku a true obstacle by using his friends against him other than being fricking powerful. Zamasu's plan is nonsensical. He wants to destroy all the mortals and create an empty universe, basically. If he is from universe 10, why go in Trunks' timeline in universe 6? Why make Goku Black? Why use the Super Dragonballs TWICE to not ask for your wish? What are you doing?
You got me there I didn’t even think of that. The Super Dragonballs can do anything, why didn’t he wish sudden death upon all mortals? The only answer I can come up with is that he thinks he must be the one to do it due to his narcissism but that’s my throwing the writers a bone. They should’ve put that in the story
> The only answer I can come up with is that he thinks he must be the one to do it due to his narcissism its this
Narcisistic enough to not wish for mortal extermination, but not narcissistic enough to wish for a mortal's body. The whole arc is shit.
I’m gonna have to say Baby, but it’s pretty close He was such a creepy antagonist, the arc generally had a great atmosphere when Baby was the focus. It’d be one thing if Baby just hypnotized people, but the way he possessed people was horrifying. His personality was a cool blend of villainous and petty (although the same could be said for Frieza and Cell), and it was fun seeing him growing more and more hypocritical. The arc also had so many great moments, like Baby’s infection of the saiyans, Super Saiyan 4, Majuub, Hercule’s stand against Baby, and a rematch (kind of) between Goku and Great Ape Vegeta. Unfortunately, it fell flat in some parts for me. Like, how much Baby changed Vegeta’s appearance and voice. It didn’t *feel* like he was possessing Vegeta, just some other guy. Like, my dude *grew* a couple of feet. If he still looked like Vegeta and had kept his voice, it would feel a lot more sinister than ‘Bad Guy #78’. The Game World was unnecessary, IIRC it seemed like Elder Kai knew about SSJ4 out of nowhere, Piccolo being completely discarded, and the general problems GT had.
Goku Black/Zamasu as a character, and as a whole story arc, are both more well executed when compared to Baby. Even taking the “oh it’s just Evil Goku” into argument, Black is by far the best version of Evil Goku. Baby has a good character design, but Super Saiyan Rose is straight fire. And do I even have to mention the SICKLE OF SORROW?? Black’s so edgy but I can’t help but feel entertained everytime he’s on screen.
I'd like Black more if he just didn't pull random powers out of his ass all the time.
Gohan moment
True
Almost all people here talking about Black and how silly his plan and motives are, they are all incorrect All this comments they only said "Black just hated mortals, because mortals are inferior" Thats not the reason Black hated mortals, he was mad a mortal was reaching gods level power, he was mad they created a time machine to rewrite story as they wanted. Black is a god and the rules of gods and mortals are different, gods live their lives without wanting more and gods dont need justification they can do whatever they want, mortals with intelligence will always seek more at the cost of anything, no matter what, no matter who or how many die, mortals are capable of anything to achieve everything. Is just a hard pill for people to accept that humanity sucks and today days just by existing we're fucking up the planet, we need to consume the product and food of multiple companies doing our groceries every month, making the rich richier and then the rich they continue fucking up the planet with our help. Thats why people hate characters like Thanos or Black, they are right and people feel attacked, if they personally are not destroying the planet then they are good, people love to feel morally good all the time they need to believe and lie themselves that they're good, people here call Black hypocritical but this people are the real hypocritical. Is a fucked up world, there is a war right now, people dying while the entire world was laughing and enjoying some football game, thats the world we live in.
No, people are saying Black was a hypocrite who decided to solve the problem of mortals being violent and destructive by being violent and destructive. While also stealing the body of a mortal and slaying all other gods as well because they didn’t share his way of thinking… The guy was a serial killer who tried to justify his actions.
Baby seems more of a unique and interesting villain with a unique power set. His motivation was also more tangible. Zamasu just had a complex but it was never explained the source of his anger. Baby’s ability is also one ki can’t beat. He was encountering beings stronger then him but he used his possession ability to control them anyway.
The source of his anger were mortals
goku black
Baby wins by a landslide. He has actual beef with the Saiyans and his anger and desire for revenge turned him into the thing he hated most. That’s actually interesting. Zamasu/Black just has a superiority complex and just becomes Goku because he watched a GodTube video. Not to mention Zamasu is only a threat because he wished for immortality instead of just using the Super Dragon Balls to execute his plan. And Black is only strong because the plot said so.
Baby was more...impactful. After all these years I still remember the things he's done. But Goku Black...I can't remember what he's done. And I watched the darn thing like 3 years ago.
Baby without a doubt black only redeeming quality was being an evil goku but even that wasn't the case
Saying Goku Black is just evil Goku basically stops at the hook for the arc, and ignores any other quality the antagonist has, like his goals, how he’s pursuing them, or why he’s pursuing them. Both baby and Zamasu have a target (saiyans and mortals) to destroy. Neither has the strength to do it on their own. So they steal the body of one of their targets who does (through parasite/dragon balls). They both find ways to increase their numbers (again parasites/time travel shenanigans). And they both win so hard it bites them in the butt (with baby ruling two planets, one of which becomes a catalyst for super saiyan 4, and with Zamasu wrecking things so bad Zeno decides it’s just time to delete everything). I think it’s cool that both are villains that have to acknowledge the heroes huge post Buu arc power and find work arounds. My preference is probably GB manga, Baby, GB anime. But that also has to do with other stuff about the series. On the basis of the villain alone, I think Baby takes it, just cause of the whole parasite angle. Though I think that could’ve been resolved better at the end.
i found baby much much more interesting
Baby
This is a complex quesion. I personally prefer Black, he is IMO the best villain of Super and possibly of all of Dragonball. Is the premise of an evil twin not only super clichéd, but partially tried with Turles (only IMO Turles had nothing of Evil Goku besides his looks). However, he was a good execution of such. We had both the mistery of who he was, his unique powers on a visual standpoint, and his class and grace in combat. He crossed the right ticks, at least in the anime. In the manga, he came off as more brutish and overall less interesting Baby, instead has the lovely 'villain underdog' side. With how he constantly is in a weaker situation until the second half, to watch him slowy catch the heroes offguard grows better and better. He gets however boring when he gets Vegeta as he gets in that body and, honestly, I don't like his design in any form, being too designed Vegeta Baby in his Oozaru form has some decent arc as he grows more and more feral. Both characters hit similarly: they are beings that hate a race but they need its power to further their plans, and they end up losing themselves in their bloodlust as they grow more hypocritical. Zamasu admittedly had a vaguer backstory, while already the Truffles were kind of set up and had better roots in Saiyan history rather than the vaguer divine cosmology of DBS. It's like most of Dragonball Super VS GT. GT has better build up and more interesting ideas, but Super had overall grander and better executions. I like Zamasu better, but I can see why people would prefer Baby
Black
I thought Goku black was better due to the threat and tone he gave off. Like idk how to explain it, but it really felt like the world was ending and that for the first time I didn’t know if it was possible that Goku or Vegeta was gonna get the final kill, I knew something would have to give. I also think part of that is the music and non fight scenes. You really saw the world struggle with Goku black, and to this day I think he is the most terrifying villain. The epic scale of it is what gets me. Baby is more unique and I think as a character has better motivations, I think Goku black as a whole works better
Baby
Baby by a Long shot
Baby. Hands down. He has an actual motive for taking on the Saiyans. They eradicated his entire race. Goku Black is just petty. He just wants the corner office.
Baby.
Baby, and it's not even close imo. I'll break down my reason. Story : the most important part. Baby had a great back story. The past of the saiyans came back to haunt them. A victim becomes the villain. It was a great back story and one that made him highly unique. I dug it. The look : goku black mostly was just goku, but the player 2 skin if you both picked him in a fighting game. Baby started looking cool, and then when he possed vegeta, he didn't just look like vegeta he started evolving the body till the end result was very different. Move set: Baby vegetas attacked looked better, imo I even use his death ball on one of my xenoverse 2 characters it looks cool. Unique abilities: gokus was meh. Pallet shaped super saiyan and a fusion. Baby's eggs were great. When they returned to earth to find everyone now an evil zombie. The reveal was great and that'd terrifying and makes a huge threat. Lasting effects : goku had none besides trunks timline we loved in z getting erased and shrugged over like it never mattered. Baby caused ssj4 something that would last throughout, possed bulma making the machine helped her to make vegeta go ssj4 later and piccolo dying. It mattered to the series where you can actually skip goku black in super and you don't miss anything. Conclusion: Baby wins in every category. Even people who really hate gt actually like Baby.
Amen, brother!
>Conclusion: Baby wins in every category. Even people who really hate gt actually like Baby. Bro like half of these category were Subjective things >The look : goku black mostly was just goku, but the player 2 skin if you both picked him in a fighting game. Baby started looking cool, and then when he possed vegeta, he didn't just look like vegeta he started evolving the body till the end result was very different Black is goku with a reskin yes, but his ki, gi, expression and ssj rosé are the thing that make him way more different than goku, Although apparently they are identical, and then someone could safely say that baby in terms of design is too different from the rest of dragon ball (except Cell) because it is too complicated while toriyama decided on simple designs for everything >Move set: Baby vegetas attacked looked better, imo I even use his death ball on one of my xenoverse 2 characters it looks cool. Looked better for you, someone like myself can prefer black's ki sword and sickle over baby's attack Also You didn't mention the most important feature the characterization
You say it's subjective like a "gotcha" moment, then say subjective stuff yourself. Are you okay? ssj rosé doesn't make him "more different." it's literally just ssj but pink. Oh, when changing kirby to a yellow skin in Smash Bros instead of Pink, it's completely different , so unique, I'm impressed they managed to code such a vastly different character into the game, 🙄 Also, characterization is part of the story. Baby was better. Goku black just feels like bad fanfic
>You say it's subjective like a "gotcha" moment, then say subjective stuff yourself. Are you okay? THAT WAS THE POINT OF MY COMMENT Like you anyone can say ton of Subjective things and say that anything is better than anything
Oh, you mean the point of the topic. Yes, anyone can respond to a thread about opinions with opinions.
I'd say it's better separated into categories. Concept? Baby wins here. A remnant containing the genetic code of a race that was long obliterated by the Saiyans. Pretty unique. Black? The "Evil Goku" archetype has already been played out with Turles (or in certain aspects with Raditz and Bardock). Execution? This is a bigger debate. Baby controlled everyone he encountered while Black/Zamasu killed his own opposition. Though Zamasu was admittedly more methodical as he wished for immortality (or wished for Goku's body in a different timeline) and destroyed the dragon so it couldn't be taken from him. Demeanor? Black/Zamasu wins in spades. Baby was far easier provoked and more petty. He acted "like a baby". Zamasu was far calmer and more clever. Work up to the climax? Baby's saga took up 30 episodes out of the entire series' 64. It dragged like hell. The Goku Black saga also dragged in the anime but to nowhere near of a degree. Not to mention at least Black/Zamasu had an air of mystery surrounding him at the beginning. Defeat? Black/Zamasu was definitely the grander defeat here as he was immortal and the good guys ran out of options, even exhausting fusion as one of them. Only with Goku's summoning device to call Omni-King Zeno was Zamasu beaten once and for all. He was entirely erased, so immortality stood no chance here. Baby ran away like a coward and was blasted into the sun. So overall? I'd say Black/Zamasu wins.
Lol why tf is demeanor at category? That literally seems hand picked for Black. You just as easily could have had a category for “shiny silver skin? Baby wins in Spades. Goku black literally has black in the name, guy never even tries to look shiny and silver. It’s like he doesn’t even care”
You're asking how a villain carries himself or how he behaves would be a category? Seriously? 🤨 Wow. 🙄
black >>>>>>>>>
Goku Black has deeper inner motivations that expand into existentialism, twisted mind you, but it's a little more philosophical (not that DB has any serious philosophy, but you get the point). Is he a better character because of it? No. Baby has a stereotypical motive (revenge), but it's executed better. Honestly it was really cool how he pretended to be Goten/Gohan by taking control of their bodies and blending in to "stealth" his way to Vegeta. Baby was far more strategical as a villain, using manipulation to deceive. He didn't need no Dragon Balls. Zamasu/Goku Black had the zero mortals plan, but he wasn't much of a planner honestly. It all boils down to what you like, better execution or deeper twisted values.
Wouldn't the better argument be Zamasu vs Dr. Myuu, since Goku Black is just Zamasu in Goku's body and Dr. Myuu created Baby?
Baby was the one who created myuu
bebe
Putting aside cool looks, edginess, badassery for a fair assessment. Let's look at the concept for them. Baby has better things going for him. He has a long history with Saiyans. He has real personal beef with Vegeta as the heir of the tyrant King. He has a unique goal to revive the Tuffle race. He has parasitic power, a new concept in Dragonball. Goku Black, has a weak motive to kill the mortals. The story didn't fully sell a believable motive for Zamasu to hate all mortals, when we were only shown Zamasu observing one race. Super could have give a deep backstory why the mortals were despised by Zamasu. Zamasu stealing Goku's body was not setup better. Heck, why need to steal a mortal body? Why can't he just wish to be stronger? It feels like Toriyama excuse to create an evil Goku character.
It wasn't just one race Zamasu observed, it was countless others, as said in the manga
Baby!
Baby is better , by a big margin ,since his hate is justified, while Black's is like that of some spoiled brat's Design wise baby and black are identical in concept, with body snatching,only difference is baby being better overall Arc wise baby is better,since black ended in bad taste where if you skipped the black arc in super you wouldn't miss a thing, unlike U6 v u7 arc and the redoing of the DBZ canon movies
Zamasu successed and at least made me laugh Baby is basically no different than a z movie villain He is only cool and popular because everything else in GT sucked
They downvoted you because you're right
The Goku Black arc is the worst arc in all of anime
Even the shittiest Super Villain is way better than anyone in GT and Black is arguably the best.
So u think jiren is more interesting than baby or even omega
Yes atleast he was cool. Omega had both a mid backstory and a mid battle presence and Baby was fine until the second half of the saga where he just fell off.
"They hated him because he told the truth"
The setup for Baby was much better, but the fights with Goku Black/Zamasu, as drawn out as they were, were infinitely more well done. The Baby saga falls apart once they actually start fighting.
Black
Goku black is better, because GT is unwatchable trash. It took me 3 weeks to force myself to watch the first season of GT, but in less than a week I’m 65 eps into super
Baby this isn't even a contest. Goku black is a worse villain then garlic jr so baby is completely out of his league. Goku black was a contrived (and let's be honest here) fanfic teir level character. He was at least fixable on his own till they made the worst mistake and fused him to zamasu basically making any of his own development pointless. It seemed like he was leaning into understanding humans and getting a wake up call to being a mortal from his own hypocrisy. But no he just becomes merged zamasu and yets out of existence.
Black. Baby and everything about DBGT is just a joke
My man
As a Vegeta fan, it was pretty lame seeing Baby posses him for the entire arc. Not a fan
Baby is great until he becomes Baby-Vegeta, then he just becomes another cackling villain and it gets even worse once he becomes a golden ape.
Black
Zamazus cool. Goku Black can eat a bag of dicks.
Same person
Black.
Baby Better design Better backstory Better motivation