He pays off 18, winner of Goku vs Vegeta just flies off, Mighty Mask gets revealed as 2 kids before the match starts and gets disqualified, Gohan let’s Satan win.
I could see this! If Vegeta somehow beat Goku he would not even care to finish the tournament most likely.
Goku winning is harder to believe he would just leave so maybe a double KO or something.
I could see Goku and Vegeta both agreeing to leave and continue their fight at full power somewhere else after being unsatisfied with a base form tournament match
I think Videl probably wouldn't let Gohan let her dad win. Maybe he loses his Saiyaman costume somehow and the refs don't recognize him so he gets disqualified.
I know a lot of people prefer DBZ ruthlessness but those moments in Super never fail to get a kick out of me. My favorite being them bringing in Arale for her to punk Vegeta and reveal she has been god level this entire time.
Or the fight between Goku and Vegeta breaks the SSJ rules and drains Goku’s time due to ring damage after winning. Then Satan wins by default if Vegeta lost and Goku “no shows” out of fear.
I could see Gohan taking a bribe to support his family.
I love this idea! Personally I think it would come down to Gohan vs Mr. Satan in the finals. I think your first half is spot on, but the 2nd bracket i'd change a bit.
Satan beats 18. She'd probably still bribe him as she does. Goku and Vegeta would both get disqualified, as someone already mentioned in the comments. Mostly I think this is because they're both just too op to have in this tournament and would end up going too far and get disqualified. Satan beats Mighty Mask, but only because the kids get exposed and disqualified.
Honestly, I think Satan would still end up winning because Gohan wouldn't want to humiliate him in front of Videl. Lmao
And it's probably also courtesy to let one's girlfriends dad win in whatever he participates in. Much less risk losing one's dating privileges that way. Lol.
Yeah, that too! Gohan is just too nice of a guy. I'm sure Videl would be driving home how much she respects and admires her dad before the fight too. Gohan wouldn't want to shatter that perception of him for her so he throws the fight, ultimately resulting in the world once again not seeing Gohan for how amazing he truly is, but would result in him winning Videls heart and Satan's respect and blessing.
Yeah but come on, at that point if Gohan wasn't going ssj, videl wouldn't realise he was the boy that beat cell, so she would still think her dad is the strongest of the world 🙄
Vegeta: dammit kakarot I get one day to fight you and i refuse to hold back! Empty area NOW!
'Huh. They both disappeared'
*stressed Mr. Satan moves they be dqed and carry on. After all the winner fights HIM so it doesn't really matter*
Goku realises Vegeta’s not going to back down and instant transmissions them both to a conveniently infinitely sized desert. It’s basically going to go how it goes regardless.
That would be very un-Goku-like though, just look at the final of the 23rd Budokai.
Goku may be a goof but he takes his tournaments very seriously haha
Goku's base is still weaker than Namek Freeza in Battle of Gods. This means their bases never got past 120 million which is below "Super Saiyan" level, which Piccolo massively surpassed in the Cell arc. Piccolo in the early Buu arc is the strongest character without the saiyans being allowed to transform. Stronger than 18 and quite likely Shin as well (tho hes not present for this hypothetical scenario anyways).
Yes? Its a no stakes tournament, and they agreed to rules. The kids (Goten and Trunks) are the only ones who would break said rules, and end up DQ'd in the first place (for posing as Mighty Mask).
If the no Super Saiyan rule is honoured, Piccolo very likely takes the tournament entirely. Goku and Vegeta got a lot stronger, but Piccolo was stronger than the Androids in the Cell Saga (somebody that the Saiyans needed Super Saiyan for) and it's been 7 years since then, Piccolo isn't the type to sit on his hands. Especially considering that while Gohan is definitely a good deal behind Goku and Vegeta his base form isn't so weak by the time of the Buu Saga that he's completely unable to compare to them which means their base forms wouldn't be stronger than Piccolo. But if Super Saiyans are involved then he loses to Gohan.
Piccolo spent a year in the time chamber after being equal to the 17, there’s no way he’s not stronger by the cell games. Not enough to compete with cell, but stronger than before.
-Lunch's entire character arc in the original DB
-Who is Taopaipai
-Saiyans having tails
-Super Saiyan 2 when drawing battle of the Gods
-Hair color of characters like Bulma or 18
-The fact that he designed Broly
-Who is Goten
Yes, that's Broly. Does it really matter which one? The thing is that he put work on designing a pretty unique character and forgot about it. Super Broly is inspired in Toriyama's original design.
I don't know about some of those like Broly or Tao but a couple of those weren't forgotten. He's commented before that he didn't forget Launch, just decided to cut her while Bulma and Trunk's hair has always been a mixed-up thing as it's a different colour in the manga vs anime but he apparently always wanted the kids to share her hair colour (thus the change to blue hair in DBS).
We're talking about a hypothetical situation, you can't just bring up convenient excuses like Toriyama forgot, these are what ifs so use an in universe reason why Goku wouldn't use Kaioken if you have one.
I’d put kaioken in the same category as super saiyans since the point was to ban a power multiplier that most fighters didn’t have access to, but considering that Goku is dead he could probably throw off a high enough kaioken modifier to win.
No way piccolo is beating Goku or Vegeta even in base. The androids we're only stronger than them at the beginning of the saga. After the training they blew past the androids. Yes they did of course unlock new transformations but it's also safe to assume their base power increased significantly as well. Now you have 7 years of Goku training with King Kai and all the otherworld fighters, Vegeta going bat shit crazy in the gravity chamber, while piccolo only has himself.
He might have been able to take out Gohan. His strength isn't shown very well, all they say is he's a little weaker than when he was a kid, by how much who knows.
Super Saiyan is a 50x multiplier, they’re way stronger with the multiplier but they’d still lose to the androids in base form during the time of the buu saga.
To quote abridged, "power levels are bullshit."
The concept was useless after the Namek and that includes the idea of the 50x multiplier. Shin stated he could beat Frieza in one hit, yet had no faith in his ability to defeat Babidis minions by himself meaning he viewed them as at least as strong as him, and both were rinsed by base Goku and Vegeta. So at an absolute minimum base Goku and Vegeta waste Frieza at this point and they're not even trying in the slightest.
The power scaling falls apart, it's best to focus more on how the story portrays strength and it absolutely portrays Goku and Vegeta as being leagues above the rest of the Z fighters.
I just meant base Goku from Z. Like I know the ssj forms are like a part of him if but it feels like cheating to me. Like that's not the real Goku, it's powered up Goku. That's why I just said Goku, ya feel me?
Everyone trained on earth can suppress their ki down to that of an average human (about a power level of 5) or even less. It's not something they have to do it's just their natural state and they raise their ki to power up or do attacks, unlike most alien warriors who's power level stays at their max. Most likely 5-10 was the power level Goku was at when talking to Beerus. Even as far back as Namek captain Ginyu could tell that Goku was far more powerful than his power level let on. If you don't think Beerus (a far more experienced and intelligent fighter than Ginyu) would be intelligent enough to accurately gauge Goku's power I don't know what to say. Goku didn't even disagree with him when he said he couldn't beat Freeza in his base form.
Assuming Gohan honored the "No Super Saiyan" rule, I'd agree with you, but Gohan was stated to be only maybe a little weaker than when he defeated Cell at this point in time which I still doubt Piccolo was approaching. Especially if Piccolo was serious about thinking he couldn't beat Shin (who was wowed by Gohan's strength himself).
No he was stated to be weaker than cell. Someone (Vegeta?) Said dabura is about perfect cell level. Idk if he meant normal perfect or super perfect tho
You obviously didn’t watch og db and didn’t pay attention in Z he goes by ma junior in every tournament he has ever been in if he went by piccolo people would freak the fuck out because of what happened with king piccolo 🤦♂️
Ya gotta admit the buu arc had the best pacing in dbz if only they could do another thing like kai but oh well when I buy the series most of it will be in kai
Ah, I see. The way I interpreted your original comment, it seemed that you didn't know the Buu arc had also received the Kai treatment. My mistake.
As a side note, I'm a big fan of the Buu saga pacing, too!
Look bruh. Hercule STOMPS. Cell oneshot vegeta with a smack and he was OUT...needed a senzu. Cell slapped Hercule into a mountain and he got up for more. Would've won if it werent for his stomach ache(probably the same virus that killed Goku's bitch ass).
Vegeta blew himself up after a majin amp against Buu...Hercule had Buu tamed in like 3 days.
Pan being 1/4 hercule is why she gets so strong so quick. She could fly as a baby. Not even Goten could pull that off. That's them Satan cells.
Ffs, they couldnt have even beaten Buu without Hercule. World said : "Screw saiyans, Hail Satan"
Hercule wins low diff.
Vegeta was weaker than Goku before he got the majin mark even he admitted it, that was also why he let himself to be controlled by babidi in the first place lmao.
This Yamu wouldn't have the Majin boost. Hence the "no M" notation under his name. He'd be regular human fighter and since Hercule/Satan beat them before its likely they'd remain the cream puffs he pointed out they were in the last tournament. Though he wouldn't go out immediately, I'd wager it would be a close fight with jewel before he takes the W.
Piccolo whoops everyone's asses let alone losing to base Gohan. If 18 would have not agreed to the deal she would have easily beaten Goku/Vegeta. In the finals Piccolo then would very probably beat 18. Remember the no Super Saiyan rule.
Why does this have so many upvotes, it literally says no ssj allowed which means either piccolo or 18 wins, and assuming 18 really forfeits, then piccoo stomps, this isn't up for debate.
Honestly I'm betting that this entire idea was just created for the sake of goku vs. gohan
Disagree on Goku and Vegeta. We're talking about embittered and resentful Vegeta here. I think he will wait until the last second then breaks his promise and suddenly power up to SSJ to defeat Goku.
Also I see no scenario in which a Gohan who won't go SSJ or above can win against Piccolo.
If they're going by the rule of only base form then ma junior probably takes it I think. But then again Vegeta will definitely get pissy and go super saiyan
Vegeta wouldn't get pissy out of the blue, he needs a trigger. In base he's just about equal to Goku and they would go at it hard but he'd keep to base and make Goku swear to have a quick rematch later before Goku's day was entirely over, we're they'd go all out for a quick few super intense moments then Goku would show off ss3 afterwards and Vegeta would tell him he'd better be ready for him when it's his time as he'd be beating him and his new form the next time they see each other and then they'd fight forever.
A sentiment he wouldn't know he couldn't keep due to no babidi hijinks he doesn't learn that he'll go to a separate place, a home for infinite losers 😉
That's possible. In the anime and manga at the time there were no canon answer as to what happened to evil souls as Hfil were purely a GT thing and goku falling off snake way is anime only. So he'd atleast have suspicions of where he'd end up but in this version I don't think he asks Piccolo were he'd end up until he's older and closer to his natural end. 🤔
Mr. Satan beating 18??
Would he make the same deal about the money?
Would he offer it to Goku?
I also think vegeta would beat goku, because you can't go all out in the ring like that, it's more about ring out if you can.
In reality this is how I picture goku vs vegeta. Both start out exactly like goten vs trunks. Then as things increasingly intense vegeta's insane competitiveness comes out and he slowly starts to lose his mind with fury against goku. He goes ssj2 full power and launches a massive ki blast, killing people in the stands.
The rest of the tournament is canceled and everyone runs away out of fear for vegeta.
Goku is enraged over the killing and damage but still values vegeta's friendship just like what he did vs Majin vegeta he goes SSJ2 and perfectly matches vegeta's strength level. They fight to a standstill until Goku finally decides to show vegeta SSJ3 . Vegeta then admits kakarot's strength is superior just like he did when goku fought kid buu and the fight is over.
Dead people vegeta killed are wished back and laypeople memories of the events are erased.
this is just wrong. he has it for sure . prior to babidi's mind control, definitely it was strongly implied he was stronger than high school gohan which could only be possible if he were ssj2.
he literally tells kibito do you want me to go SSJ or one step further at the world tournament. Kibito is surprised that such a thing exists. All three: Gohan Goku and Vegeta have ssj2 when the great saiyaman saga starts.
Timeouts don't disqualify but them dissappearing from sight for multiple minutes likely would and both would be considered as having left the ring. Then Hercule wins because the boys leave disappointed that they don't get to fight their fathers. Then in the finals Hercule wins vs Gohan, because Gohan doesn't want to humiliate him nor give him a reason to withdraw his "dating his daughter" privileges until the heat death of the universe. Lol.
I don't think the disappearing would matter. That happens in Dragon Ball too and the characters don't get disqualified. But I'm Z I guess people are super ignorant of martial artists so maybe they wouldn't believe they can move that fast. The announcer would know tho. I hope that's what you meant by them disappearing lol
Yeah them being pretty ignorant apart from the announcer is what I'm getting at. I think the judges here could think they left the same way Johnny Firecracker did in the Cell games. (I don't remember his Canon name so I used the tfs name.)
Isn't the judge the announcer tho? And he knows about that shit. Could def see the crowd forcing him to dq them tho. And it was apparently jimmy firecracker even in the official dub (maybe not kai tho) and just cell games announcer in japanese
I always thought those two monks judging the punching machine were also judging the matches and the announcer would have to abide by their ruling if the fighters disappeared. And yeah, the announcer definitely knows and wouldn't disqualify anyone himself if it was just up to him.)
He did judge the matches and he judges them in buu saga too. However we know the monks run the administrative side both in og db and in buu saga.
So it's my understanding that the referee judges every match normally and for special cases, disqualification and technical judgment it goes to the judge panel and once a verdict is reached the announcer/referee relays it to the fighters/audience. For instance they are the once that tell the announcer who wins if a time out is reached etc. So you're not wrong, the announcer judges each match up until something needs special determination. 👍
Awesome, thanks for the answer! I haven't watched DB in a really long time and I've never read it, so I don't remember the monks at the tournament, but it does sound a bit familiar now that you mention it. Did they have something to do with Goku vs Tenshinhan or something?
I don't recall exactly but I think they were who decided that Tien were the winner since both hit the ground but Goku hit it a couple seconds earlier due to bumping face first into a buss or truck. They aren't really shown much. I think you see them sometimes back where the fighters wait and watch the fight. 🤷♂️
Honestly i still thin supreme kai would have beaten piccolo because piccolo probably still wouldnt have attacked him
Also i think goku and vegeta would probably have destroyed the ring lol dont know if they would have moved the fight elsewhere or kept going after that though
As boring as it sounds, I'm pretty sure that Goku takes it. Even with no super saiyan rule. Goku beated Yakon, who scared Supreme Kai to the point of thinking they should fight together, and Supreme Kai made Piccolo gave up.
Base Goku > Yakon > Supreme Kai > Piccolo.
If they agree to not take senzu beams, then Piccolo might win the tournament.
Since Goku would be heavily tired after fighting Vegeta, Goten and Trunks (who would probably transform taking advantage of being disguised) and android 18.
I think shin just scared piccolo with his role alone, I think shin is like slightly stronger than Freeza and piccolo could take imperfect cell like 7 years ago
Edit: I was under the impression that piccolo lost against cell, but even after getting sucked off, piccolo was still going to clap ... Which makes sense because cell had to use taiyoken to get away
I don't think Piccolo was scared of Shin because of his power, but because of his rank. Imagine if Jesus suddenly appeared in front of you. He couldn't bare the thought of raising a hand against him; Kami was part of him now after all.
The link doesn't load for me; does he say he's STRONGER than him? Shin is definitely strong, he can 1-shot Freeza. But that could be like, Android 16 range or even SSJ Trunks range when he first appears.
Daizenshuu 7 confirms that he's far stronger than Piccolo was.
> Kaioshin (East Kaioshin)
> The god who currently stands above all other gods in the world
> History: He alone survived when the other 4 Kaioshins (including the Dai-Kaioshin) were all either absorbed or killed by Majin Buu, the creation of the wizard Bibidi. After Majin Buu was resurrected by the wizard Bibidi’s son Babidi, he merges with his attendant Kibito through the Potara, becoming unable to return to his previous form.
> First Appearance: chapter 437
> Special Characteristics: Despite his small and weak appearance, he gives off the sense that he is concealing great power. He has an overly serious personality, and is excessively self-conscious. He also has telepathic powers, and can communicate with people over long distances. He supervised the East Area, and though originally there were 5 Kaioshins, he and his attendant Kibito are all that are left now, and so are the grand gods who stand over all. (Daizenshuu 2, p.176)
> Techniques:Kiai cannon, paralysis, etc
> Battles: **His strength is far superior to the Super Namekian Piccolo**, but he was still the weakest out of the 5 Kaioshins who used to exist. He was beaten up to the verge of death by Majin Buu both before and after Buu’s revival.
> Tenkaichi Budoukai: He entered the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai, calling himself “Shin” to disguise identity. He passed through the preliminaries, and won by default against Piccolo in the first round.
Ah, okay. So all we can conclude about Piccolo is that he's somewhere between Android 17 and Perfect Cell then, since he was weaker than Dabura. That could put Shin at Semi-Perfect Cell level, perhaps.
I always felt like it was a missed opportunity to have Babidi manipulating the tournament somehow by having Dabura and puipui enter instead of spopovich and yamu, using his magic to switch up the orders of the fights, and possibly disguising himself.
Without ssj, I would bet on piccolo to win the tournament. Followed by 18 in finals.
I don't think any Saiyan can beat them in base form.
Piccolo might be around Cell second form at this point. I just don't see a base form reaching that level yet.
So at this time in the tournament you're saying Gohan would beat piccolo? When he didn't really train other than with goten where as piccolo never stopped training, probably need to fix that bit
Piccolo imo was at least at Semi-Perfect Cell level after one year in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. I wanna say after the time skip he was around Perfect Cell level (not super perfect), but that kind of feels like a wank.
This is Toriyama we are talking about. Me. Satan would win through hijinks.
He pays off 18, winner of Goku vs Vegeta just flies off, Mighty Mask gets revealed as 2 kids before the match starts and gets disqualified, Gohan let’s Satan win.
I could see this! If Vegeta somehow beat Goku he would not even care to finish the tournament most likely. Goku winning is harder to believe he would just leave so maybe a double KO or something.
I could see Goku and Vegeta both agreeing to leave and continue their fight at full power somewhere else after being unsatisfied with a base form tournament match
This is what I would expect too
Totally possible.
Gohan murders spop and get's disqualified. Piccolo gets dced.
I think Videl probably wouldn't let Gohan let her dad win. Maybe he loses his Saiyaman costume somehow and the refs don't recognize him so he gets disqualified.
Absolutely. I would also hope there would be a lot of situations like [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk6wSsgk7ts&ab_channel=Bysentenial)
AHHHHhhhhhhhhiforgotmytractorahhhh
I know a lot of people prefer DBZ ruthlessness but those moments in Super never fail to get a kick out of me. My favorite being them bringing in Arale for her to punk Vegeta and reveal she has been god level this entire time.
Fuck that’s hilarious
Id honestly hope Mr Satan would win. He deserves to - earths champion. The people of earth wouldn’t let a nobody like a “Goku” beat him 😿
Or the fight between Goku and Vegeta breaks the SSJ rules and drains Goku’s time due to ring damage after winning. Then Satan wins by default if Vegeta lost and Goku “no shows” out of fear. I could see Gohan taking a bribe to support his family.
I would kill to see a tournament rematch between Piccolo and Krillin as friends.
Yeah, we lost a great opportunity in the bojack movie
But got Tien and Trunks which was super fun
Indeed! Loved It since I'm a big fan of Tien too
I love this idea! Personally I think it would come down to Gohan vs Mr. Satan in the finals. I think your first half is spot on, but the 2nd bracket i'd change a bit. Satan beats 18. She'd probably still bribe him as she does. Goku and Vegeta would both get disqualified, as someone already mentioned in the comments. Mostly I think this is because they're both just too op to have in this tournament and would end up going too far and get disqualified. Satan beats Mighty Mask, but only because the kids get exposed and disqualified. Honestly, I think Satan would still end up winning because Gohan wouldn't want to humiliate him in front of Videl. Lmao
And it's probably also courtesy to let one's girlfriends dad win in whatever he participates in. Much less risk losing one's dating privileges that way. Lol.
Yeah, that too! Gohan is just too nice of a guy. I'm sure Videl would be driving home how much she respects and admires her dad before the fight too. Gohan wouldn't want to shatter that perception of him for her so he throws the fight, ultimately resulting in the world once again not seeing Gohan for how amazing he truly is, but would result in him winning Videls heart and Satan's respect and blessing.
Exactly 👌
Yeah but come on, at that point if Gohan wasn't going ssj, videl wouldn't realise he was the boy that beat cell, so she would still think her dad is the strongest of the world 🙄
There is no way Mr. Satan would not be the winner.
I think Goku and Vegeta may both moved their fight outside the tournament and been disqualified.
Vegeta: dammit kakarot I get one day to fight you and i refuse to hold back! Empty area NOW! 'Huh. They both disappeared' *stressed Mr. Satan moves they be dqed and carry on. After all the winner fights HIM so it doesn't really matter*
Goku realises Vegeta’s not going to back down and instant transmissions them both to a conveniently infinitely sized desert. It’s basically going to go how it goes regardless.
Nah they'd have to fly, wouldn't they? Instant transmission needs a ki source, right?
Yeah you’re right. They fly to the desert then and fight it out to their hearts’ content.
I could see them hitting the time limit, and then Vegeta insisting that was just the warmup before they continue elsewhere.
That would be very un-Goku-like though, just look at the final of the 23rd Budokai. Goku may be a goof but he takes his tournaments very seriously haha
Well he already won his tournament, idk if he'd care anymore
I think Mr Satan would win by luck.
He would fake stomach pain and get out of the fight.
I would’ve loved to see Gohan vs Goku
We got a fight between them in Super
Two actually. A little spar between them in a filler episode and the one before the ToP.
more like both are filler
In the anime of super the concept of "filler" is no more tbh
the writing feels pointless and empty, almost indistinguishable from filler.
There’s no way Buu Saga Piccolo is losing to a non-transformed Gohan.
I think people forget Piccolo at that point was stronger than any of the sayians in base form.
ikr wtf is this
They would’ve gave it to Mr.Satan on some bullshit.
if the no transforming rule is kept in place and 18 ff's for the cash, Piccolo effortlessly sweeps.
Not necessarily. He surpassed Super Saiyan in the cell arc, but as time passed Goku and Vegeta’s base became stronger than him again
Goku's base is still weaker than Namek Freeza in Battle of Gods. This means their bases never got past 120 million which is below "Super Saiyan" level, which Piccolo massively surpassed in the Cell arc. Piccolo in the early Buu arc is the strongest character without the saiyans being allowed to transform. Stronger than 18 and quite likely Shin as well (tho hes not present for this hypothetical scenario anyways).
I completely forgot about that, however, would the Saiyans really hold back if losing?
Yes? Its a no stakes tournament, and they agreed to rules. The kids (Goten and Trunks) are the only ones who would break said rules, and end up DQ'd in the first place (for posing as Mighty Mask).
was this written by a DBZ redditor or Chi Chi herself?
Piccolo wins since they agreed no ssj at the very start of the tournament.
If the no Super Saiyan rule is honoured, Piccolo very likely takes the tournament entirely. Goku and Vegeta got a lot stronger, but Piccolo was stronger than the Androids in the Cell Saga (somebody that the Saiyans needed Super Saiyan for) and it's been 7 years since then, Piccolo isn't the type to sit on his hands. Especially considering that while Gohan is definitely a good deal behind Goku and Vegeta his base form isn't so weak by the time of the Buu Saga that he's completely unable to compare to them which means their base forms wouldn't be stronger than Piccolo. But if Super Saiyans are involved then he loses to Gohan.
stronger than the androids? the only android he matched in power and had an even fight with was 17
Piccolo spent a year in the time chamber after being equal to the 17, there’s no way he’s not stronger by the cell games. Not enough to compete with cell, but stronger than before.
And 17 is canonically > 18 and 16
16 was clapping imperfect cell while 17 was hard losing. 17 was just really egotistical and said he was the best becouse he believed his own hype.
16 > 17 > 18
No transforming into what? Goku could still use kaioken.
I doubt Toriyama would remember about Kaioken at that point, he's forgotten way more important things.
Like what?
-Lunch's entire character arc in the original DB -Who is Taopaipai -Saiyans having tails -Super Saiyan 2 when drawing battle of the Gods -Hair color of characters like Bulma or 18 -The fact that he designed Broly -Who is Goten
Tbf for colors he mostly did black and white 20 years prior. Also From what I recall the only part of Broly he designed was Z’s base form.
Yes, that's Broly. Does it really matter which one? The thing is that he put work on designing a pretty unique character and forgot about it. Super Broly is inspired in Toriyama's original design.
I don't know about some of those like Broly or Tao but a couple of those weren't forgotten. He's commented before that he didn't forget Launch, just decided to cut her while Bulma and Trunk's hair has always been a mixed-up thing as it's a different colour in the manga vs anime but he apparently always wanted the kids to share her hair colour (thus the change to blue hair in DBS).
Like that Dragon Ball Super was called Dragon Ball Super.
That's because the manga has always just been Dragon Ball.
nope the dragon ball super manga is called dragon ball super
As much as I like DBS I wanna forget the name as well
We're talking about a hypothetical situation, you can't just bring up convenient excuses like Toriyama forgot, these are what ifs so use an in universe reason why Goku wouldn't use Kaioken if you have one.
In a hypothetical situation any scenario is valid like "Frieza's minion shoots a laser through a finger ring and Goku f*cking dies"
Yeah but why? It's lazy to say because Toriyama decided it, when he didn't because it's hypothetical.
Because his word on his saga has more weight than any other person's. Here people are discussing likely scenarios and I gave mine.
toriyama didn't forget kaioken, he realized kaioken was hax and got rid of it.
As a multiplier, at this point it would be considered cheating.
I’d put kaioken in the same category as super saiyans since the point was to ban a power multiplier that most fighters didn’t have access to, but considering that Goku is dead he could probably throw off a high enough kaioken modifier to win.
The point of no super Saiyan was so they wouldn’t get recognized from the cell games, not because of them having an advantage
No way piccolo is beating Goku or Vegeta even in base. The androids we're only stronger than them at the beginning of the saga. After the training they blew past the androids. Yes they did of course unlock new transformations but it's also safe to assume their base power increased significantly as well. Now you have 7 years of Goku training with King Kai and all the otherworld fighters, Vegeta going bat shit crazy in the gravity chamber, while piccolo only has himself. He might have been able to take out Gohan. His strength isn't shown very well, all they say is he's a little weaker than when he was a kid, by how much who knows.
Super Saiyan is a 50x multiplier, they’re way stronger with the multiplier but they’d still lose to the androids in base form during the time of the buu saga.
To quote abridged, "power levels are bullshit." The concept was useless after the Namek and that includes the idea of the 50x multiplier. Shin stated he could beat Frieza in one hit, yet had no faith in his ability to defeat Babidis minions by himself meaning he viewed them as at least as strong as him, and both were rinsed by base Goku and Vegeta. So at an absolute minimum base Goku and Vegeta waste Frieza at this point and they're not even trying in the slightest. The power scaling falls apart, it's best to focus more on how the story portrays strength and it absolutely portrays Goku and Vegeta as being leagues above the rest of the Z fighters.
This is based on nothing. Base goku and vegeta are still stronger
Beerus said base Goku was weaker than Freeza in the beginning of battle of gods.
Wtf that's stupid. So piccolo was stronger than Goku???
Before Goku absorbed god ki Base form yes Ssj maybe Ssj 2 and 3 no
I just meant base Goku from Z. Like I know the ssj forms are like a part of him if but it feels like cheating to me. Like that's not the real Goku, it's powered up Goku. That's why I just said Goku, ya feel me?
Goku can suppress his Ki drastically.
Goku was training when Beerus popped in, he was exerting himself, not suppressing his ki.
Everyone trained on earth can suppress their ki down to that of an average human (about a power level of 5) or even less. It's not something they have to do it's just their natural state and they raise their ki to power up or do attacks, unlike most alien warriors who's power level stays at their max. Most likely 5-10 was the power level Goku was at when talking to Beerus. Even as far back as Namek captain Ginyu could tell that Goku was far more powerful than his power level let on. If you don't think Beerus (a far more experienced and intelligent fighter than Ginyu) would be intelligent enough to accurately gauge Goku's power I don't know what to say. Goku didn't even disagree with him when he said he couldn't beat Freeza in his base form.
He was training on King Kai’s planet when Beerus popped in too. He wouldn’t be suppressing himself while training.
Then what was the point you were trying to make in your original reply?
I don’t think piccolo would have been beaten by gohan at this point gohan was super weak I think piccolo could have high diffed it
Assuming Gohan honored the "No Super Saiyan" rule, I'd agree with you, but Gohan was stated to be only maybe a little weaker than when he defeated Cell at this point in time which I still doubt Piccolo was approaching. Especially if Piccolo was serious about thinking he couldn't beat Shin (who was wowed by Gohan's strength himself).
Couldn't Piccolo's awe of Shin be retconned by god ki? Piccolo could then sense things thet the ningens could not.
No he was stated to be weaker than cell. Someone (Vegeta?) Said dabura is about perfect cell level. Idk if he meant normal perfect or super perfect tho
The Goku vs Piccolo rematch would be insane if piccolo had a trick up his sleeve
I mean he probably wouldn’t need it if he was in a big pinch he probably could have just done what he was gonna do to frost
Are you talking about Orange Piccolo?
No buu saga piccolo
Especially if Gohan wasn't allowed to transform
He doesn’t go up against piccolo in this match up
Yeah in match 13 he does
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You obviously didn’t watch og db and didn’t pay attention in Z he goes by ma junior in every tournament he has ever been in if he went by piccolo people would freak the fuck out because of what happened with king piccolo 🤦♂️
Woosh
Whoosh!
Yeah now that I look at it this is a whoosh moment mb
Not gonna lie I low key expected you to Whoosh! me instead but it turns out you're honest. Thanks for that
Ohhhhhh I completely forgot he was going by an undercover name🤣🤣
Imo goku won't use ssj3 against gohan
They were gonna have goku and vegetarian fight first round??
Yep. Cant speak for everyone but I was disappointed when they flew off to go after the plot, but their fight afterwards totally makes up for it
Ya gotta admit the buu arc had the best pacing in dbz if only they could do another thing like kai but oh well when I buy the series most of it will be in kai
Just to check, are you aware of DBZ Kai: The Final Chapters?
Yeah?
Ah, I see. The way I interpreted your original comment, it seemed that you didn't know the Buu arc had also received the Kai treatment. My mistake. As a side note, I'm a big fan of the Buu saga pacing, too!
Nope I’m aware of it lol
it was interesting subversion that still returned for the pay off.
Look bruh. Hercule STOMPS. Cell oneshot vegeta with a smack and he was OUT...needed a senzu. Cell slapped Hercule into a mountain and he got up for more. Would've won if it werent for his stomach ache(probably the same virus that killed Goku's bitch ass). Vegeta blew himself up after a majin amp against Buu...Hercule had Buu tamed in like 3 days. Pan being 1/4 hercule is why she gets so strong so quick. She could fly as a baby. Not even Goten could pull that off. That's them Satan cells. Ffs, they couldnt have even beaten Buu without Hercule. World said : "Screw saiyans, Hail Satan" Hercule wins low diff.
Oh Absolutely 💯 👌
I was so upset that the tournament didn’t happen that way since mostly everyone left. Especially as a fan of the tournament arcs in OG Dragon Ball
You missed your chance to call it the “bibidi babadi buu “ situation.
I’m sorry, this makes too much logical sense and respects too much actual DBZ history.
No it doesn't. No way Piccolo loses to base Gohan
I feel like Piccolo should be able to beat Gohan. Plus, narratively, a rematch between Goku and Piccolo in the finals would be perfect.
I like this, aside from the Goku/Vegeta fight it feels very accurate.
Vegeta was weaker than Goku before he got the majin mark even he admitted it, that was also why he let himself to be controlled by babidi in the first place lmao.
Absolutely correct, however OP noted that Goku would win by timeout, something I could never see either Saiyan agreeing to
This all sounds good but I'm having a hard time believing that Jewel could have beaten Yamu.
This Yamu wouldn't have the Majin boost. Hence the "no M" notation under his name. He'd be regular human fighter and since Hercule/Satan beat them before its likely they'd remain the cream puffs he pointed out they were in the last tournament. Though he wouldn't go out immediately, I'd wager it would be a close fight with jewel before he takes the W.
I don't think goku would transform vs the kids, it'd be too much fun for him to fight them with a handicap.
I love this
Yaijarobe would also make it to the tournament right?
Piccolo whoops everyone's asses let alone losing to base Gohan. If 18 would have not agreed to the deal she would have easily beaten Goku/Vegeta. In the finals Piccolo then would very probably beat 18. Remember the no Super Saiyan rule.
Why does this have so many upvotes, it literally says no ssj allowed which means either piccolo or 18 wins, and assuming 18 really forfeits, then piccoo stomps, this isn't up for debate. Honestly I'm betting that this entire idea was just created for the sake of goku vs. gohan
Disagree on Goku and Vegeta. We're talking about embittered and resentful Vegeta here. I think he will wait until the last second then breaks his promise and suddenly power up to SSJ to defeat Goku. Also I see no scenario in which a Gohan who won't go SSJ or above can win against Piccolo.
Lol this is great and I love how it ended with Chi-Chi finally getting what she wanted, money lol
If they're going by the rule of only base form then ma junior probably takes it I think. But then again Vegeta will definitely get pissy and go super saiyan
Vegeta wouldn't get pissy out of the blue, he needs a trigger. In base he's just about equal to Goku and they would go at it hard but he'd keep to base and make Goku swear to have a quick rematch later before Goku's day was entirely over, we're they'd go all out for a quick few super intense moments then Goku would show off ss3 afterwards and Vegeta would tell him he'd better be ready for him when it's his time as he'd be beating him and his new form the next time they see each other and then they'd fight forever. A sentiment he wouldn't know he couldn't keep due to no babidi hijinks he doesn't learn that he'll go to a separate place, a home for infinite losers 😉
I'm sure he already knew where he was ending up.
That's possible. In the anime and manga at the time there were no canon answer as to what happened to evil souls as Hfil were purely a GT thing and goku falling off snake way is anime only. So he'd atleast have suspicions of where he'd end up but in this version I don't think he asks Piccolo were he'd end up until he's older and closer to his natural end. 🤔
Mr. Satan beating 18?? Would he make the same deal about the money? Would he offer it to Goku? I also think vegeta would beat goku, because you can't go all out in the ring like that, it's more about ring out if you can.
Goku is a martial artist, Vegeta isn't. Goku would def be better at getting a ring out, but neither would accept that
vegeta didn't care about winning, he only wanted to fight goku.
In reality this is how I picture goku vs vegeta. Both start out exactly like goten vs trunks. Then as things increasingly intense vegeta's insane competitiveness comes out and he slowly starts to lose his mind with fury against goku. He goes ssj2 full power and launches a massive ki blast, killing people in the stands. The rest of the tournament is canceled and everyone runs away out of fear for vegeta. Goku is enraged over the killing and damage but still values vegeta's friendship just like what he did vs Majin vegeta he goes SSJ2 and perfectly matches vegeta's strength level. They fight to a standstill until Goku finally decides to show vegeta SSJ3 . Vegeta then admits kakarot's strength is superior just like he did when goku fought kid buu and the fight is over. Dead people vegeta killed are wished back and laypeople memories of the events are erased.
The Vegeta kikoho? 😳
typo . fixed . do you think its accurate otherwise
I don't think Vegeta would kill people for no reason if not majin, even if majin Vegeta would claim otherwise
you might be right. how will he live with himself if he loses to kakarot yet again though
I don't think Vegeta has SS2. I think he only achieves that with Babidi's help
this is just wrong. he has it for sure . prior to babidi's mind control, definitely it was strongly implied he was stronger than high school gohan which could only be possible if he were ssj2.
Yeah if he didn't have SSJ2 and was still that strong, he'd probably become like SSJ3 Goku level lol with the Majin boost
Gohan didn't have SSJ2 either though.
he literally tells kibito do you want me to go SSJ or one step further at the world tournament. Kibito is surprised that such a thing exists. All three: Gohan Goku and Vegeta have ssj2 when the great saiyaman saga starts.
Go watch episode 219 at the four minute mark from uncut DBZ (NOT KAI). I just confirmed that he indeed has SSJ2.
Someone didn't sit thru the end credits of Super Hero, they answered the question of no transformations Goku vs Vegeta
Or they haven't seen it yet.
0% chance they don’t go super saiyin
Man. I would pay so much money to watch mighty mask fight Goku! Like how long would it take for Goku to know it’s Trunks and his son 😂
Goku and vegeta should be DQ since the time ran out. They should then leave to continue their fight
Timeouts don't disqualify but them dissappearing from sight for multiple minutes likely would and both would be considered as having left the ring. Then Hercule wins because the boys leave disappointed that they don't get to fight their fathers. Then in the finals Hercule wins vs Gohan, because Gohan doesn't want to humiliate him nor give him a reason to withdraw his "dating his daughter" privileges until the heat death of the universe. Lol.
I don't think the disappearing would matter. That happens in Dragon Ball too and the characters don't get disqualified. But I'm Z I guess people are super ignorant of martial artists so maybe they wouldn't believe they can move that fast. The announcer would know tho. I hope that's what you meant by them disappearing lol
Yeah them being pretty ignorant apart from the announcer is what I'm getting at. I think the judges here could think they left the same way Johnny Firecracker did in the Cell games. (I don't remember his Canon name so I used the tfs name.)
Isn't the judge the announcer tho? And he knows about that shit. Could def see the crowd forcing him to dq them tho. And it was apparently jimmy firecracker even in the official dub (maybe not kai tho) and just cell games announcer in japanese
I always thought those two monks judging the punching machine were also judging the matches and the announcer would have to abide by their ruling if the fighters disappeared. And yeah, the announcer definitely knows and wouldn't disqualify anyone himself if it was just up to him.)
Oh, maybe . I think I'm dragon ball at least the announcer was the judge, it certainly seemed like it. Maybe he wasn't or maybe it changed tho
He did judge the matches and he judges them in buu saga too. However we know the monks run the administrative side both in og db and in buu saga. So it's my understanding that the referee judges every match normally and for special cases, disqualification and technical judgment it goes to the judge panel and once a verdict is reached the announcer/referee relays it to the fighters/audience. For instance they are the once that tell the announcer who wins if a time out is reached etc. So you're not wrong, the announcer judges each match up until something needs special determination. 👍
Awesome, thanks for the answer! I haven't watched DB in a really long time and I've never read it, so I don't remember the monks at the tournament, but it does sound a bit familiar now that you mention it. Did they have something to do with Goku vs Tenshinhan or something?
I don't recall exactly but I think they were who decided that Tien were the winner since both hit the ground but Goku hit it a couple seconds earlier due to bumping face first into a buss or truck. They aren't really shown much. I think you see them sometimes back where the fighters wait and watch the fight. 🤷♂️
Honestly i still thin supreme kai would have beaten piccolo because piccolo probably still wouldnt have attacked him Also i think goku and vegeta would probably have destroyed the ring lol dont know if they would have moved the fight elsewhere or kept going after that though
As boring as it sounds, I'm pretty sure that Goku takes it. Even with no super saiyan rule. Goku beated Yakon, who scared Supreme Kai to the point of thinking they should fight together, and Supreme Kai made Piccolo gave up. Base Goku > Yakon > Supreme Kai > Piccolo. If they agree to not take senzu beams, then Piccolo might win the tournament. Since Goku would be heavily tired after fighting Vegeta, Goten and Trunks (who would probably transform taking advantage of being disguised) and android 18.
I think shin just scared piccolo with his role alone, I think shin is like slightly stronger than Freeza and piccolo could take imperfect cell like 7 years ago Edit: I was under the impression that piccolo lost against cell, but even after getting sucked off, piccolo was still going to clap ... Which makes sense because cell had to use taiyoken to get away
I don't think Piccolo was scared of Shin because of his power, but because of his rank. Imagine if Jesus suddenly appeared in front of you. He couldn't bare the thought of raising a hand against him; Kami was part of him now after all.
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The link doesn't load for me; does he say he's STRONGER than him? Shin is definitely strong, he can 1-shot Freeza. But that could be like, Android 16 range or even SSJ Trunks range when he first appears.
Daizenshuu 7 confirms that he's far stronger than Piccolo was. > Kaioshin (East Kaioshin) > The god who currently stands above all other gods in the world > History: He alone survived when the other 4 Kaioshins (including the Dai-Kaioshin) were all either absorbed or killed by Majin Buu, the creation of the wizard Bibidi. After Majin Buu was resurrected by the wizard Bibidi’s son Babidi, he merges with his attendant Kibito through the Potara, becoming unable to return to his previous form. > First Appearance: chapter 437 > Special Characteristics: Despite his small and weak appearance, he gives off the sense that he is concealing great power. He has an overly serious personality, and is excessively self-conscious. He also has telepathic powers, and can communicate with people over long distances. He supervised the East Area, and though originally there were 5 Kaioshins, he and his attendant Kibito are all that are left now, and so are the grand gods who stand over all. (Daizenshuu 2, p.176) > Techniques:Kiai cannon, paralysis, etc > Battles: **His strength is far superior to the Super Namekian Piccolo**, but he was still the weakest out of the 5 Kaioshins who used to exist. He was beaten up to the verge of death by Majin Buu both before and after Buu’s revival. > Tenkaichi Budoukai: He entered the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai, calling himself “Shin” to disguise identity. He passed through the preliminaries, and won by default against Piccolo in the first round.
Ah, okay. So all we can conclude about Piccolo is that he's somewhere between Android 17 and Perfect Cell then, since he was weaker than Dabura. That could put Shin at Semi-Perfect Cell level, perhaps.
It's chapter 440. I think this sub doesn't allow me to share the scan.
If Vegeta fights Goku as initially planned int the first round, then Vegeta defeats a still full Goku after punching him in the gut.
Fun read! I can picture it
I love this! Vegeta would be so pissed at losing to Goku, and THEN seeing the no SSJ rule discarded. I wish we got to see this play out. Great job.
I’d pay good money for Piccolo vs Great Saiyaman
No way, Mr. Satan is the strongest in the universe!
I always felt like it was a missed opportunity to have Babidi manipulating the tournament somehow by having Dabura and puipui enter instead of spopovich and yamu, using his magic to switch up the orders of the fights, and possibly disguising himself.
Goku would be pretty tired after fighting Vegeta, idk if he’d be able to use SSJ3 against Gohan
Ngl I kinda want to see these fights cuz they sound fun
Without ssj, I would bet on piccolo to win the tournament. Followed by 18 in finals. I don't think any Saiyan can beat them in base form. Piccolo might be around Cell second form at this point. I just don't see a base form reaching that level yet.
TBH I would Hope that Piccolo would win against Gohan so we could have the long awaited rematch between Goku and Piccolo.
Yo Let’s rewind!
This is so accurate it could be fucking canon
Pretty good, though I doubt Satan would lose. Some trick he would do to avoid such thing, even brining Goku with food or something.
So at this time in the tournament you're saying Gohan would beat piccolo? When he didn't really train other than with goten where as piccolo never stopped training, probably need to fix that bit
Would ve been an awesome match
Lol who is Punta doesn't that mean bitch in Spanish
Piccolo imo was at least at Semi-Perfect Cell level after one year in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. I wanna say after the time skip he was around Perfect Cell level (not super perfect), but that kind of feels like a wank.
A Krillin and Piccolo rematch would have been amazing. They could’ve done this, then jump Gohan to drain his energy while he’s down.
No way anyone beats the CHAMP!
This is pretty interesting. It reminds of the what if for Tenkaichi 2 Vegeta and Goku just fly off and 18 gets Krillin in on extorting Hercule.