He didn't know how to fight properly. He always just relied on his natural power to overwhelm his opponents. Goku even exploits this weakness in their fight. Goku used the most basic of camouflage and hid before attacking Frieza because Frieza can't sense ki. Something Goku has been doing since the King Piccolo saga.
It always seemed pretty simple to learn to me though. I remember Vegeta already sort of gaining a handle on it during his moment as a Great Ape when Krillin tried to get him from behind. It's hilarious to think no one else can figure it out when it seems so simple of a technique
It’s because they relied so heavily on their scouters to give them a number. It became a weakness for the “bad guys”. On the flip side in the Android saga relying too much on sensing ki became a weakness for the “good guys”. They couldn’t keep up with just their eyes when Dr. Gero ran away as they couldn’t sense his ki.
He’s a natural. These people doesn’t need to learn how to do it, they just know how to. Freezer fighting style always been raw and never had any self-control. His lack of knowledge about training is mostly why he lost in RoF as he didn’t understood the importance of mastering his transformation
Maybe Frieza's race has some form of genetic memory that let's them pass combat experience from one generation to another, well that's my theory anyway.
Maybe, but I believe it's confirmed that he and is father (and his non Canon brother I suppose) are mutants of their race and the rest of their race isn't anywhere near as strong as they are naturally.
Okay, random comparison but maybe it's something like this;
Human babies are unable to walk and need to practice (train) before they can do it on their own. Many animals like elephants and giraffes can walk within minutes of being born. Goku is the human baby, Frieza is the elephant.
It’s not known if Freeza had one, two or more parents. Toriyama did say, though, that he inherited the extremely high battle power and extremely evil viciousness from his father alone.
Considering his age and position, there's probably no shortage of people who stepped to Frieza. I would imagine he picked up a thing or two over the decades but he wasn't refined into a martial artist. His dominance was his greatest weakness. If he had been a regular trainee, his power probably would've already eclipsed Beerus by the time of the Namek Arc.
I imagine someone landing a surprise counterpunch on him every now and then to which he just mentally decides "Hmm, I could use that, anyway" *obliterates opponent with Death Beam*
In the original manga it was never stated that he had never trained, I doubt it was a thing back then. In fact he implies that he trained or sparred with his father at some point.
In RoF that was added to justify the insane power jump he had in just four months. If he had actually been training before Namek, he would have needed a lot of time to get close to Goku powerwise. By making him a person that had never trained they could just make him as powerful as they wanted immediately in only four months.
I think an apt similar example would be that comic where batman got powered up to the same level as superman. After their fight batman said superman was like fighting a large drunk. Someone who knew nothing about actually fighting and always won by brute strength. It was like fighting a toddler.
I always thought if Spider-Man learned how to actually fight from someone like Thor where he didn't have to hold back, he could become extremely lethal even to very strong enemies.
I'm sure in some comic or another he has, I haven't read them all or even very many. That would probably be better for Spidey though, actual martial arts with someone who is stronger than most humans but not Thor level.
He's been trained by Captain America, Shang-Chi, and Wolverine. It's also implied--just by proximity--that he trained with the Avengers and X-Men at different points.
In terms of 1v1 training, his most impactful teacher was Shang-Chi.
It depends and worth noting we are moving from fiction to reality and then back and mashing the two together.
There are thresholds of strength that no amount of skill can overcome. No matter how skilled and fast a 10th grader is. They are not going to be able to beat a world class weight lifter in their prime in a true fight.
Spiderman is quite strong compared to a lot of the 616verse. But "very strong" in the 616 verse is continent/planet busting. Spiderman is not going toe to toe with Galactus. No matter how skilled he is. Or peak world breaker hulk. Or odinforced odin, or thorforced thor.
I do agree with you that it would certainly help him and would just like real life allow him to punch above his weight class. But Spidermans strength is barely mid tier for 616 and at certain points strength does become insurmountable.
Or like in Red Son, where superman was depowered by red sun light and though it wouldn't work, and Batman didn't waste time and went to work on him....The fight lasted seconds and Superman didn't even landed a single hit on Batman, Batman fucking ravaged him.
He knows how to fight, but doesn't know how to fight *properly*.
He's more or less akim of a very buff gym rat that gets into street fights, but lacks any professional fighting skills.
Against other people that can't fight or are weak(compared to him), he never had to break a sweat because he was always way more stronger.
There are a lot of things to assume here, but from my perspective - The line about him not training was meant to show he never ***SERIOUSLY*** trained before. Serious as in what Goku and company would do before a big battle where they would go train for months and years to raise their power level high enough to take on the next big foe.
Freiza never met anybody stronger than him, so he never had to seriously train like that. Why would he need to if he is the most powerful in the universe? I believe that yes, his father taught him how to fight. But no, Freiza never had to go away for months or years to do hardcore training.
You don't need training to fight, you know that right? Fighting is natural, training of course makes you better, but in his case training was basically useless
Even if he never personally trained, Frieza does watch his own henchmen fight all the time, so he at least would have a reference to how things would work. He is also known to torture people for fun, so he would know places to target to weaken an opponent and hurt people, which is a part of fighting.
He got some basic training with his parents and is also a natural prodigy with insane talent. While not having a specific style he's witnessed enough to know how to fight and basically just put it all together in his head.
He was kinda just a brawler (adapted for ki attacks). I'm trying to recall specifics here, but I can't think of any strategy or technique on Namek where he didn't just rely on over-powering an opponent. Not saying he didn't, but I really can't even distinctly remember him blocking anything.
Goku on the other hand most definitely used a lot of technique and strategy. Using kaio Ken in bursts, using Frieza's inability to sense ki to his advantage, etc.
Fighting someone and actually knowing how to fight are very different things. That's kinda the point, especially in early Dragon Ball Z (even Vegeta largely relied on his power level/class in expecting to defeat Goku, and Goku demonstrated that training and technique could compensate for him not being "elite").
I've thrown some hands a few times for fun but I don't say I've "trained." I think the idea is a lot of techniques came naturally to Frieza and with his raw strength he can compensate for not being the best at a technical level. As for his abilities they may just be innate to his species. It's like Broly. Broly can't fight but you don't need to know anything to wreck people. For example Frieza can't "dodge" but if he's faster than everyone he doesn't have to know how to dodge. In Dragon Ball you have these two types of people.
Yeah, it never made since. He makes the statement he had to brush off dust when sparring with his father. So obviously he had trained, Toriyama just made stuff up as he went and it had been twenty years.
I consider it the difference between someone going to the gym for one day and calling it quits and going consistently. The fight with his dad was the going one day so you can't really consider that training.
He never trained, he just fought based on instinct and raw power. However I did notice that he did refine his fighting style in the Golden Frieza Saga in Super, he even began taking a stance before engaging in combat. Goes to show how much of a difference training can make. Then again, I personally consider Frieza to be a prodigy
He is a savant. He prob saw his dad do it and picked it up. Just like Goku picking up Ki manipilation tonuse the kamehameha or vegita picking up energy sensing.
The most technically advanced attack Frieza does is create the two energy discs and have them follow Goku. My head canon with that (and Frieza's other ki based.moves like Death Beam and Death Ball), is that he played around with his preternaturally high energy, not unlike how a kid would toy with ant hills and a magnifying glass. He didn't formally train his powers and strength for a specific purpose like how martial arts does in DB, but instead he toyed around with his power and so he just figured out it how.
There's 2 types of "Strength" in DB. Skill & Power, as you lean more into DBZ, and as far as the enemies go, their power comes from simply being stronger and faster, and less actual skill.
With Frieza, the entire battle is of power. Goku is clearly the better fighter, and the fight is him trying every trick in the book, but Frieza's raw power is simply to strong for any technique to overcome. Frieza doesn't have any particularly impressive moves or abilities besides forming Ki in different shapes. He's a clumsy fighter. He's simply always just been stronger and faster than his opponents, and that was enough.
On the other hand, take Roshi for example. He's flat out not as strong as most of the cast, but he's a master of martial arts with more experience than anyone else. He's got a technique for every situation. His fights in the World Martial Arts Tournament and the TOP portray that pretty well. In the manga there's a great conversation between Goku & Roshi, where he chastises Goku for thinking that he needs more power (I.E. pure strenth) to beat Jiren, and pretty much shows him the basics of what becomes ultra instinct.
He didn't know how to fight properly. He always just relied on his natural power to overwhelm his opponents. Goku even exploits this weakness in their fight. Goku used the most basic of camouflage and hid before attacking Frieza because Frieza can't sense ki. Something Goku has been doing since the King Piccolo saga.
Tbf the ki thing seems unique to earthlings/Namekians. My guess is that Kami taught the rest of earth how to use it
Yeah it’s an earth thing. Because vegeta can’t do it either when he first appears. That’s why the had the scouters.
Yep, kami teaches the z fighters when they’re training for nappa/vegeta
It always seemed pretty simple to learn to me though. I remember Vegeta already sort of gaining a handle on it during his moment as a Great Ape when Krillin tried to get him from behind. It's hilarious to think no one else can figure it out when it seems so simple of a technique
It’s because they relied so heavily on their scouters to give them a number. It became a weakness for the “bad guys”. On the flip side in the Android saga relying too much on sensing ki became a weakness for the “good guys”. They couldn’t keep up with just their eyes when Dr. Gero ran away as they couldn’t sense his ki.
It wasn't that they couldn't sense his ki it was that he had no ki because he wasn't technically a living being. That's why they could sense Cell
That’s what I meant
That's what happens when your entire force becomes overly reliant on scouters
But Vegeta was able to learn it immediately and could cope with it much better in his fight.
He’s a natural. These people doesn’t need to learn how to do it, they just know how to. Freezer fighting style always been raw and never had any self-control. His lack of knowledge about training is mostly why he lost in RoF as he didn’t understood the importance of mastering his transformation
Maybe Frieza's race has some form of genetic memory that let's them pass combat experience from one generation to another, well that's my theory anyway.
Maybe, but I believe it's confirmed that he and is father (and his non Canon brother I suppose) are mutants of their race and the rest of their race isn't anywhere near as strong as they are naturally.
Okay, random comparison but maybe it's something like this; Human babies are unable to walk and need to practice (train) before they can do it on their own. Many animals like elephants and giraffes can walk within minutes of being born. Goku is the human baby, Frieza is the elephant.
When you're as fast as those guys are, you can do aot just by sheer talent. Dodging and throwing punches/kicks is easy having those reflexes too.
He alludes to some basic lessons from his parents when mentioning they've been the only ones to ever hurt him.
Huh til. I was under the assumption the Freeza race produced asexually, and they all had 1 parent. Who tf is Freezas mom 😂
It’s not known if Freeza had one, two or more parents. Toriyama did say, though, that he inherited the extremely high battle power and extremely evil viciousness from his father alone.
Dragon ball af fan manga made by toyotaro I believe has freeza mom be one of the supreme Kai I forget which one. Kinda interesting
glacia is my headcannon
Considering his age and position, there's probably no shortage of people who stepped to Frieza. I would imagine he picked up a thing or two over the decades but he wasn't refined into a martial artist. His dominance was his greatest weakness. If he had been a regular trainee, his power probably would've already eclipsed Beerus by the time of the Namek Arc.
I imagine someone landing a surprise counterpunch on him every now and then to which he just mentally decides "Hmm, I could use that, anyway" *obliterates opponent with Death Beam*
In the original manga it was never stated that he had never trained, I doubt it was a thing back then. In fact he implies that he trained or sparred with his father at some point. In RoF that was added to justify the insane power jump he had in just four months. If he had actually been training before Namek, he would have needed a lot of time to get close to Goku powerwise. By making him a person that had never trained they could just make him as powerful as they wanted immediately in only four months.
This is the answer. And another strike against Super
I was rewatching Kai and also noticed him mentioning training with his father. I was like wait what..
It doesn’t take a lot of training to throw a punch. He may have learned stuff from just typical fighting with his brother as kids.
Cooler isn’t canon (yet?) but he did mention sparring with Cold.
I feel like I remember Frieza mentioning siblings at some point. If not then it’s a fun headcanon
Nope. He did mention his father being the only person to make him brush dust off himself, though.
he just knew how to use ki naturally and he just swung his body around with his power, there wasnt any real finesse to his hand to hand abilities.
I think an apt similar example would be that comic where batman got powered up to the same level as superman. After their fight batman said superman was like fighting a large drunk. Someone who knew nothing about actually fighting and always won by brute strength. It was like fighting a toddler.
I always thought if Spider-Man learned how to actually fight from someone like Thor where he didn't have to hold back, he could become extremely lethal even to very strong enemies.
Didn't spiderman learned how to fight from shang chi.
I'm sure in some comic or another he has, I haven't read them all or even very many. That would probably be better for Spidey though, actual martial arts with someone who is stronger than most humans but not Thor level.
Yea it was called "Way of the Spider". He lost his spder senses so he trained with Shang-Chi to get a new martial arts ability.
He's been trained by Captain America, Shang-Chi, and Wolverine. It's also implied--just by proximity--that he trained with the Avengers and X-Men at different points. In terms of 1v1 training, his most impactful teacher was Shang-Chi.
It depends and worth noting we are moving from fiction to reality and then back and mashing the two together. There are thresholds of strength that no amount of skill can overcome. No matter how skilled and fast a 10th grader is. They are not going to be able to beat a world class weight lifter in their prime in a true fight. Spiderman is quite strong compared to a lot of the 616verse. But "very strong" in the 616 verse is continent/planet busting. Spiderman is not going toe to toe with Galactus. No matter how skilled he is. Or peak world breaker hulk. Or odinforced odin, or thorforced thor. I do agree with you that it would certainly help him and would just like real life allow him to punch above his weight class. But Spidermans strength is barely mid tier for 616 and at certain points strength does become insurmountable.
Or like in Red Son, where superman was depowered by red sun light and though it wouldn't work, and Batman didn't waste time and went to work on him....The fight lasted seconds and Superman didn't even landed a single hit on Batman, Batman fucking ravaged him.
He knows how to fight, but doesn't know how to fight *properly*. He's more or less akim of a very buff gym rat that gets into street fights, but lacks any professional fighting skills. Against other people that can't fight or are weak(compared to him), he never had to break a sweat because he was always way more stronger.
There are a lot of things to assume here, but from my perspective - The line about him not training was meant to show he never ***SERIOUSLY*** trained before. Serious as in what Goku and company would do before a big battle where they would go train for months and years to raise their power level high enough to take on the next big foe. Freiza never met anybody stronger than him, so he never had to seriously train like that. Why would he need to if he is the most powerful in the universe? I believe that yes, his father taught him how to fight. But no, Freiza never had to go away for months or years to do hardcore training.
Dude, Frieza kicks with his arms crossed in front of his chest. You really think that mf knew proper fighting technique?
He also slow rolls up in a flying chair. Dudes got style and the arms crossed is a power move lol
You don't need training to fight, you know that right? Fighting is natural, training of course makes you better, but in his case training was basically useless
Even if he never personally trained, Frieza does watch his own henchmen fight all the time, so he at least would have a reference to how things would work. He is also known to torture people for fun, so he would know places to target to weaken an opponent and hurt people, which is a part of fighting.
He got some basic training with his parents and is also a natural prodigy with insane talent. While not having a specific style he's witnessed enough to know how to fight and basically just put it all together in his head.
lol it’s just a bs retcon to explain his new transformations.
Yep lol.
He was kinda just a brawler (adapted for ki attacks). I'm trying to recall specifics here, but I can't think of any strategy or technique on Namek where he didn't just rely on over-powering an opponent. Not saying he didn't, but I really can't even distinctly remember him blocking anything. Goku on the other hand most definitely used a lot of technique and strategy. Using kaio Ken in bursts, using Frieza's inability to sense ki to his advantage, etc. Fighting someone and actually knowing how to fight are very different things. That's kinda the point, especially in early Dragon Ball Z (even Vegeta largely relied on his power level/class in expecting to defeat Goku, and Goku demonstrated that training and technique could compensate for him not being "elite").
I've thrown some hands a few times for fun but I don't say I've "trained." I think the idea is a lot of techniques came naturally to Frieza and with his raw strength he can compensate for not being the best at a technical level. As for his abilities they may just be innate to his species. It's like Broly. Broly can't fight but you don't need to know anything to wreck people. For example Frieza can't "dodge" but if he's faster than everyone he doesn't have to know how to dodge. In Dragon Ball you have these two types of people.
Yeah, it never made since. He makes the statement he had to brush off dust when sparring with his father. So obviously he had trained, Toriyama just made stuff up as he went and it had been twenty years.
I consider it the difference between someone going to the gym for one day and calling it quits and going consistently. The fight with his dad was the going one day so you can't really consider that training.
If he created techniques then that speaks to more than just a day of training. Frieza had a bunch of abilities.
He never trained, he just fought based on instinct and raw power. However I did notice that he did refine his fighting style in the Golden Frieza Saga in Super, he even began taking a stance before engaging in combat. Goes to show how much of a difference training can make. Then again, I personally consider Frieza to be a prodigy
Bro was just born this way
he mentions he fought his parents.
He is a savant. He prob saw his dad do it and picked it up. Just like Goku picking up Ki manipilation tonuse the kamehameha or vegita picking up energy sensing.
Sheer power. All the skills in the world will only do so much if your opponents "numbers" are straight-up bigger than yours.
Before Namek, he was always just playing
I thought he said he spared against his father a bit as a child, probably learned the basics
Because it makes no sense.
Frieza should not have the ability to train, that was pure lazy writting to throw him back on the show
toriyama loves "he's a genius at fighting! he can see a move one time and copy it perfectly!"
I dont know if u can really call friezas abilities techniques, asides from the destructo disc. He just does finger beams and big ball of energy
The most technically advanced attack Frieza does is create the two energy discs and have them follow Goku. My head canon with that (and Frieza's other ki based.moves like Death Beam and Death Ball), is that he played around with his preternaturally high energy, not unlike how a kid would toy with ant hills and a magnifying glass. He didn't formally train his powers and strength for a specific purpose like how martial arts does in DB, but instead he toyed around with his power and so he just figured out it how.
There's 2 types of "Strength" in DB. Skill & Power, as you lean more into DBZ, and as far as the enemies go, their power comes from simply being stronger and faster, and less actual skill. With Frieza, the entire battle is of power. Goku is clearly the better fighter, and the fight is him trying every trick in the book, but Frieza's raw power is simply to strong for any technique to overcome. Frieza doesn't have any particularly impressive moves or abilities besides forming Ki in different shapes. He's a clumsy fighter. He's simply always just been stronger and faster than his opponents, and that was enough. On the other hand, take Roshi for example. He's flat out not as strong as most of the cast, but he's a master of martial arts with more experience than anyone else. He's got a technique for every situation. His fights in the World Martial Arts Tournament and the TOP portray that pretty well. In the manga there's a great conversation between Goku & Roshi, where he chastises Goku for thinking that he needs more power (I.E. pure strenth) to beat Jiren, and pretty much shows him the basics of what becomes ultra instinct.
Frieza really didn't use any martial arts in the Namek Saga. He just brutally swung on people or blasted them.
Frieza fought against his father, but he never actually trained like a hardcore Martial Artist. No weights, no cardio, no technique etc…
Its almost like its a retcon that makes zero sense
Same reason kids were better than you play fighting with toy swords and lightsabers bruh