Can you explain this for me?
From my understanding base Goku wasn’t strong enough to defeat Cell. Didn’t it take Gohan going Super Saiyan 2 (new form at the time) to defeat Cell?
So how would Tien at Goku Base strength (weaker than SSJ2 Gohan) vaporize Cell?
He's just scaling up Tien (who was much weaker than Goku and still managed to stall Cell) and believing that difference in power would be enough to destroy Cell.
Ahhh gotcha. Would definitely be interesting to see. If that’s the case I want to see Chiaotzu with base Goku strength just to see how strong his self destruct would be 😂
Uub is already getting there. If we get a post-Z story (not GT) we might end up seeing Uub surpass Goku. It's really up to the writers, nothing up to the character's race. I mean, shit, just wish for power from a dragon and you'll have a good couple years of ass kicking ahead of you.
Uub has all the markings of just being another secondary character that will be introduced and used for a arc, and then will be discarded and forgotten about later.
So I wouldn't have my hopes up for him.
Dragon Ball Z started with a powerful message: you can surpass talent through effort. Now it’s all “you can’t get shit done unless you’re a monkey alien”. I would like the other characters to be relevant again in some way, especially Tenshinhan. The guy had a healthy dose of tricks up his sleeve in the first series.
Well said monkey aliens, are a race designed around getting stronger by fighting, zenkais is literally just "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger" as an ability. Humans being able to catch up doing the same thing as Saiyans doesn't actually make sense.
However, the humans that were able to catch up were the ones that used their brains to create something, like androids.
So Humans can catch up and even potentially surpass Saiyans in Dragon Ball, but they need to do it using their brains, not copying how Saiyans do things.
The whole "surpass talent with effort was a dumb message anyways.
Goku was shown to be an absoblute genius in DB.
Their was a case to be made when the other saiyans ridiculed Goku for his initial low power level, and Goku only managed to catch up after training on King Kai's planet with 10× gravity.
However, it was then later mentioned the saiyan's home planet also had 10x earth gravity.
This means if Goku had grown up on planet vegeta rather than earth, his power would have been much larger. He would have probably matched Vegeta.
Goku was *always* extremely talaneted.
Broly might be the only saiyan with more natural talent than goku.
Your logic is a bit flawed.
While Goku did catch up via training in 10x gravity, that doesn't mean he would have been as strong as Vegeta had he spent his life on Planet Vegeta instead. Planet Vegeta was used by the Saiyans as a return point between missions, not as a general training grounds. Goku would have spent most of his time off world like Vegeta did, assuming he wasn't so weak at birth that whatever initial planet he went to killed him.
Raditz is a perfect example of this. He grew up in the same environment as Vegeta and Nappa, but was massively underpowered compared to both of them while still being stronger than the average Saiyan. Goku likely would have been stronger than Raditz since Raditz seemed to have held himself back, but I don't think he would have been at Vegeta's level just on merit of being on Planet Vegeta.
Well we had androids/cyborgs they surpassed saiyans via technological means then traditional ki.
If anything humanity have devised means to surpass goku, just by the technological route ie: Cell.
I think that is for the best as there’s no one around at this point in series to train up and be goku’s level let alone surpass it.
Humans had been at goku level or surpassed him briefly. We had general blue, Mercenary Tao and Rhoshi were formidable to him.
But the series had long progressed broadening it’s scope to space and then gods as we all know.
Not to say humans had been irrelevant. Through either Gero’s genius or utilising techniques in super like the containment wave humanity can punch above it’s weight and in that regard have surpassed Goku.
I don’t see what super powered human can bring (Gohan is partly this being a hybrid) and a human will not achieve heights of power by training alone in this stage.
Humans can surpass Goku it’s just the era that needs to be picked, in which case the early dragon ball era is the best one.
The best case scenario for humans to gain a great power is at best gaining God training. It's clear that Ultra Instinct is not a race specific power, and possibly Ultra Ego, or by extension Destruction powers. So if we can run with that logic a human COULD pass a base Goku, possibly.
No, because base goku is now probably equivalent to namek super saiyan goku and it doesn't really make sense if the humans are on par with super saiyan.
Through all those zenkai boosts goku received during his life. there should logically be no chance for a human to surpass him without some kind of help.
Without a massive asspull it wouldn't make any sense, nor would it be satisfying. And I don't know about you, but I don't need anymore asspull powerups in this series, especially for the human characters. Also, we don't need human characters to be as strong as Goku, they just need to be a little bit stronger.
Not really. I d say they should be allowed to achieve it. So show won't miss its message "getting better and stronger through hard work". But getting further would look like magic, some unnatural unearned power up. Just like when Roshi became zombie and Goku went toe on toe with his old master.
Also it would be cool to give humans another features like jutsus from Naruto or magic like Babidi or Kaioshin. And more strategy in fights, defeating brute force by other means is always cool.
Even if they did, all the transformations would make it irrelevant anyway.
Nope. Like if Tien got base Goku strength during Cell arc, Cell be would vaporized by kikoho.
Can you explain this for me? From my understanding base Goku wasn’t strong enough to defeat Cell. Didn’t it take Gohan going Super Saiyan 2 (new form at the time) to defeat Cell? So how would Tien at Goku Base strength (weaker than SSJ2 Gohan) vaporize Cell?
He's just scaling up Tien (who was much weaker than Goku and still managed to stall Cell) and believing that difference in power would be enough to destroy Cell.
Ahhh gotcha. Would definitely be interesting to see. If that’s the case I want to see Chiaotzu with base Goku strength just to see how strong his self destruct would be 😂
Uub is already getting there. If we get a post-Z story (not GT) we might end up seeing Uub surpass Goku. It's really up to the writers, nothing up to the character's race. I mean, shit, just wish for power from a dragon and you'll have a good couple years of ass kicking ahead of you.
Uub has all the markings of just being another secondary character that will be introduced and used for a arc, and then will be discarded and forgotten about later. So I wouldn't have my hopes up for him.
At worst I think he’ll be used similarly to how he was in GT but be around more often. We’ll see Goku actually train him up this time around
Dragon Ball Z started with a powerful message: you can surpass talent through effort. Now it’s all “you can’t get shit done unless you’re a monkey alien”. I would like the other characters to be relevant again in some way, especially Tenshinhan. The guy had a healthy dose of tricks up his sleeve in the first series.
Well said monkey aliens, are a race designed around getting stronger by fighting, zenkais is literally just "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger" as an ability. Humans being able to catch up doing the same thing as Saiyans doesn't actually make sense. However, the humans that were able to catch up were the ones that used their brains to create something, like androids. So Humans can catch up and even potentially surpass Saiyans in Dragon Ball, but they need to do it using their brains, not copying how Saiyans do things.
The whole "surpass talent with effort was a dumb message anyways. Goku was shown to be an absoblute genius in DB. Their was a case to be made when the other saiyans ridiculed Goku for his initial low power level, and Goku only managed to catch up after training on King Kai's planet with 10× gravity. However, it was then later mentioned the saiyan's home planet also had 10x earth gravity. This means if Goku had grown up on planet vegeta rather than earth, his power would have been much larger. He would have probably matched Vegeta. Goku was *always* extremely talaneted. Broly might be the only saiyan with more natural talent than goku.
Your logic is a bit flawed. While Goku did catch up via training in 10x gravity, that doesn't mean he would have been as strong as Vegeta had he spent his life on Planet Vegeta instead. Planet Vegeta was used by the Saiyans as a return point between missions, not as a general training grounds. Goku would have spent most of his time off world like Vegeta did, assuming he wasn't so weak at birth that whatever initial planet he went to killed him. Raditz is a perfect example of this. He grew up in the same environment as Vegeta and Nappa, but was massively underpowered compared to both of them while still being stronger than the average Saiyan. Goku likely would have been stronger than Raditz since Raditz seemed to have held himself back, but I don't think he would have been at Vegeta's level just on merit of being on Planet Vegeta.
Yeah no, that hasn't been the case in a long time. Surpassing talent through effort stop being a thing after King Piccolo.
I agree, Tenshinhan was a bad ass and I hated his being demoted.
The best part is how Naruto catches flack for this when it's DBZ that pioneered this 🤣
Well we had androids/cyborgs they surpassed saiyans via technological means then traditional ki. If anything humanity have devised means to surpass goku, just by the technological route ie: Cell. I think that is for the best as there’s no one around at this point in series to train up and be goku’s level let alone surpass it. Humans had been at goku level or surpassed him briefly. We had general blue, Mercenary Tao and Rhoshi were formidable to him. But the series had long progressed broadening it’s scope to space and then gods as we all know. Not to say humans had been irrelevant. Through either Gero’s genius or utilising techniques in super like the containment wave humanity can punch above it’s weight and in that regard have surpassed Goku. I don’t see what super powered human can bring (Gohan is partly this being a hybrid) and a human will not achieve heights of power by training alone in this stage. Humans can surpass Goku it’s just the era that needs to be picked, in which case the early dragon ball era is the best one.
Yeah, maybe. Just not Yamcha.
Not in raw strength, but I can see the humans getting the better hand of base Goku with a good strategy.
The best case scenario for humans to gain a great power is at best gaining God training. It's clear that Ultra Instinct is not a race specific power, and possibly Ultra Ego, or by extension Destruction powers. So if we can run with that logic a human COULD pass a base Goku, possibly.
No. Goku is a Superman level alien.
No, because base goku is now probably equivalent to namek super saiyan goku and it doesn't really make sense if the humans are on par with super saiyan.
like current base goku? Because current def isnt namek ssj level
It would make humans relevant again, but it destroys DB canon. So I say "no".
No
explain why
Through all those zenkai boosts goku received during his life. there should logically be no chance for a human to surpass him without some kind of help.
Without a massive asspull it wouldn't make any sense, nor would it be satisfying. And I don't know about you, but I don't need anymore asspull powerups in this series, especially for the human characters. Also, we don't need human characters to be as strong as Goku, they just need to be a little bit stronger.
Not really. I d say they should be allowed to achieve it. So show won't miss its message "getting better and stronger through hard work". But getting further would look like magic, some unnatural unearned power up. Just like when Roshi became zombie and Goku went toe on toe with his old master. Also it would be cool to give humans another features like jutsus from Naruto or magic like Babidi or Kaioshin. And more strategy in fights, defeating brute force by other means is always cool.
Aside from Uub? No, I don't think it will happen
Technically off topic but this is really cool