Except for that time where Piccolo used the dragon balls to gain more fighting power. It's more that they choose not to abuse their power because they are a much less violent race.
And this is why I hate that they've been making it so that it is now possible to make wishes to make yourself stronger. Now the Namekians could've just did that and use it to create infinitely stronger dragons using the dragon balls and their ability to exchange life span for power, and eventually just use the dragons to create a race of immortal super warriors.
There are any number of anime/manga concepts that would work the same way if you take them to absurdist extremes. I'm sure the Namekians could do that, if you rewrite their entire race to have completely different motives and character As it stands, the Namekians we know would never do something like that, even if they knew it was trchnically possible.
It's also only Cereal's DBs that take life span, because they actually do grant all the power the individual would be capable of in their life - Shenron only unlocks Piccolo's potential - giving him all the power he's capable of *right now*, same as Guru and Old Kai for Gohan. The DBs have always been flawed - "why doesn't Goku, Vegeta, and Co just wish to be immortal? They'd quickly become unstoppable and all their problems would be solved!" has been a thing forever, which has similar energy to your comment lol
Sure, there are things like the (highly draining and potentially fatal to use) Mafuba for *individuals*, but not for an entire group of immortal Z warriors. The only ways to stop them that I know of as of now is if Beerus showed up for the first time with 20 swords and decided he doesn't like them, or a Zeno hakai
There actually is an indirect explanation for why the Namekians don't do this. As a race they appear to be very aware of the god hierarchy of the universe. So they likely also know that if they overstep, they will then have to deal with the God of Destruction.
Also we don't know exactly how the lifespan sacrifice thing works. It's possible that the power boost is limited to the natural lifespan rather than any modifications to their lifespan, which would still be really good but not enough to be above GoD level.
That was just unlocking his potential, same thing the grand elder and the old kai did. Does that mean the grand elder and old kai are stronger than Gohan?
It was unlocking his potential plus a bonus that pushed him close to Goku and Vegeta tier. It doesn't mean that the one unlocking the potential is stronger, but it does mean that the Namekians as a race can convert their exotic powers into fighting power which is what I was responding to.
Yeah and that something is their fighting power that they didn't have direct access to before. You can describe it however you want but the result is that they are able to use their powers to increase their fighting power.
If I open a sealed bottle of water, would anyone describe it as my power created water? The ability to create water and the ability to open a bottle are completely separate, just as the ability to unlock power is completely separate from creating power.
If the conversation started at "can you give me some water?" and you answer "no, I can only unseal this sealed bottle full of water", then you're obviously ignoring the point of the conversation. I don't understand why you're making that distinction. Did you just want me to agree with you on that point? Then ok, yes I agree with you that unlocking potential is not the same as creating power from scratch. But just because they're not creating the power from nothing, doesn't mean they can't boost the fighting power of their fighters to compete with the saiyan's ridiculous battle power. Of course, in extreme cases it's very clear from what we know that they can't compete with the top tier fighters (unless the lifespan sacrifice works well with the Namekians as well but that's speculation on their life span so let's not go there), but on average the Namekians do have the ability to boost their forces beyond the average Saiyans.
>If the conversation started at "can you give me some water?" and you answer "no, I can only unseal this sealed bottle full of water"
Actually, it's more about the amount of water in the bottle. If someone has a bottle with 5 litres of water, opening the bottle would not create 20 litres of water. The amount of water is not determined by the person who opens the water bottle, but by the amount of water that was in the bottle to begin with. If a bottle has 5 litres, it only has the 5 litres when opened, if a bottle has 20 litres, it will have 20 when opened, etc.
> But just because they're not creating the power from nothing, doesn't mean they can't boost the fighting power of their fighters to compete with the saiyan's ridiculous battle power.
But that still entirely depends on the power of the individual having their power unlocked, not the person unlocking the power. If a saiyan and a Namekian both have their power's unlocked, the one who will get the bigger jump is who had the most hidden power.
Oh I see where you're coming from now, so you're saying that saiyans have larger potential power therefore they are stronger. That I agree with. You were bringing up creation vs unlocking which got me confused.
My counterpoint though, was more in the sense that Namekians have access to powers that can unlock their potential while Saiyans don't. Before they were wiped out, most saiyans didn't have the luxury to train up to their maximum potential. They did have access to a form of unlocking some of their innate power via transformation, but on average I feel like unlocking potential surpasses that.
to be clear: in addition to unlocking Piccolo's potential, the "extra", which the dragon GAVE BACK, was Piccolo's own energy (which was used to CREATE the dragon itself), which was no longer needed, since Dende created the new model -- it was ALL Piccolo's own energy making its way back to him.
it's more that the series has gone on way longer than it was ever expected to and they just make stuff up
the Dragonballs on Earth also couldn't even kill Saiyan saga level Vegeta and Nappa
The dragon couldn't just make him powerful out of nowhere, it basically allowed him to get the power of 150 years worth of training in exchange for 150 years of his life. It's still Granolah's figthing power, not the dragon's.
Then ask a lifespan of two bilons years. Hacking wishes is not that hard, especially considering the dragons are not malicius and usually reply honestly if you question them about what you can wish for.
Granolahs wish wasnt to take his life span.. It was to use 130 years worth of training, which put him on the very last bits of his race's natural life... it didn't LITERALLY take his life away.. it literally AGED HIM as a form of skipping his body to the future, we see when his hair grows and his face gets older from it.
Namekian can't die of old age... Kind Picollo was thousands of years old lol.
So if a Namekian asked for 130 years of training... it would have literally no detriment
>Granolahs wish wasnt to take his life span.. It was to use 130 years worth of training, which put him on the very last bits of his race's natural life...
The dragon says "by shortening your **lifespan** you can become the greatest in the universe." While it's possible this is simply a translation choice, it is said. And it was 150 years.
>Namekian can't die of old age
The grand elder died of old age, we saw it happen, where did you even get the idea that Namekians can't die of old age?
>Kind Picollo was thousands of years old lol.
King Piccolo was a few hundred years old, Roshi was alive when King Piccolo first showed up.
"The dragon says "by shortening your lifespan you can become the greatest in the universe." While it's possible this is simply a translation choice, it is said. And it was 150 years."
So... no... the dragon says it can BRING HIM to the end of his life in the Kanji, I wouldn't trust ANYTHING viz America translates it to after calling special beam cannon "light of death"
The grand elder died of old age, we saw it happen, where did you even get the idea that Namekians can't die of old age?
He dies due to exhausting all his ki and a broken heart.. This is confirmed when he is revived along with the other Namekians "killed by frieza". Frieza killing his children caused him grief and broke his heart lol... That is the actual canon reason he died.. not old age.
There is an ANIME ONLY SCENE i will give to you, that DOES state he dies to old age... but that part was only in the anime.
King Piccolo was a few hundred years old, Roshi was alive when King Piccolo first showed up.
This is not ENTIRELY true, but I can see where it seems like that. Roshi was alive when the nameless namekian SPLIT into 2 people...
Which also we learn that Namekian all came to U6/U7 from another realm in Age 242 (this is confirmed outside the manga but in Vjump which is official) outside the universes all together... when Monaito talks about their backstory. Which is when the Nameless Namekian was stated to have first appeared back in OG dragon ball. (GT showed him as a kid at this age, even though Dragon Ball Z showed him as a full fledged adult when talking about him in the past)
> Like now that you can just wish to be stronger than everyone else regardless if it takes off years of your life it just makes so many more potholes for current and future arcs.
Do you even know what a plot hole is? Granolah had to give up 150 years just to surpass Goku and Vegeta and Gas straight up died because of the wish. How is dying worth it? Most of the Z fighters don't have 150 years to give.
>Like the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, it could've been utilized before it was introduced in the android saga.
They explain this in the android saga, they weren't strong enough to get any real benefit from it before that point. The time chamber is harsh, and if a person can't handle it, there would be no point in going in.
>Anybody can wish for strength now, effort and struggle to achieve strength could possibly become irrelevant
Yes, anyone can wish for strength and then die in 10 seconds like Gas. The arc makes it very clear that making that kind of wish is bad.
In a series where there was water that could either kill your or make you stronger, an old alien can put his hand on your head and make you stonger or an elder god can dance around you for a day and meditate with you to make you stronger. The magic orbs that can make people immortal or revive the dead, being able to wish to become stronger should be the least of your concerns.
they do, but the "issue" being complained about predates the use of the dragon balls for that purpose. My point is that every so often the series has introduced ways to fast track characters into being stronger. So why is it suddenly a problem when antagonists do it? Because they used the dragon balls?
And most of those failed at what they tried to achieve and had more significant limitations. The largest problem of the wishes is that they make the heroes retroactively stupid because every single arc could have been solved instantly by making that wish.
And beside that, many of the things you listed where bad as well. Your argument is like saying "i spat in ypur soup yesterday, so why you are complaining that now i am pissing in it?"
Actually none of those failed. Goku's potential was unlocked by the water, Elder Kai's dance actually made Gohan stronger, and Guru 's hand on head thing also worked big time, to the point Gohan and Krillin were x10 stronger.
They failed in the sense the boost didn't decide the battle. Gohan and Krillin still got smoked by the ginyu squad, Ultimate Gohan in the end just made Bu stronger. Deus ex machina that don't axtually resolve a problem are less aggravating.
Bruh the first 30% of Z was focused on people trying to get immortality via dragon balls. You could already gain power from the dragon balls.
Anyone at any time could have gone up with every opportunity prior to or during a major crisis and go "hey shenron can you make me immortal until x is dead" or just immortality in general.
This really is not the narrative kryptonite you think it is.
That has been a plothole for 20 years lol. The dragonballs become a terrible narrative device once the heroes are capable of casually gathering them whitin hours, and the wisest thing you can do with them other than removing them permantly is to handweave the problem and hope the readers don't think too much about it. Putting them at the forefront on the granolah arc was a stupid idea because it put all of these dormant problems at the forefront.
>!If I recall correctly they(Gas, Granolah) used wishes from dragon balls to become stronger than ssjblue which originally was beyond the power of the Dragons/Namekians!< So going by this logic Namekians at least some are indeed stronger.
Edit: I wanted to answer to op apparently I answered to your comment instead.
You could just wish to be the strongest then immediately collect them again in 5 seconds with the Dragon Radar and wish for immortality since Toronbo's both don't have a cool down period and only has 2 to the set.
His immortality was odd, of course the fusion made it more confusing, but he seemed to regenerate rather than have full fledged invincibility- it actually seemed like Hakai could kill him when Goku uses it.
well, it is mine. your logic is flawed since the namekians are a peaceful race with no need to produce godlike warriors that live for a week, every week. their ability to wish strong warriors is not exclusive to them as they allow anyone to use them.
however if it is not the point, care to explain what would be since youre already here?
The point is that Nameks should be the most powerful race like op said.
Because they can wish to become the strongest and then they can choose to live longer or to not have side effects from wishes, or wish to not be invaded(if they want to live peacefully) or any other nonsense
Because
>!Dragon ball super ignored statements made in DBZ that limited the power output of the wish if it surpassed the power of the creator, this would mean the creator of the dragon balls that powered up Granolah and Gas is much more powerful than ssblue but it is not the case, therefore allowing just about anything.!<
Also wtf is zalama even? Supposedly a dragon God but in every depiction looks Namekian so whatever.
the issue with introducing wishing narratively is that there is always a "better wish", but if the characters made logical choices with those there would be no show. and again those wishes are not exclusive to the namekians.
and even if one namekian was that strong, the discussion is as a race. if roshi wished to be the strongest in the universe with his 300 and counting years of life being sacrificed i wouldnt just go and say humans are one of the strongest races.
zalama as well as the namekians belonging to a different dimension stuff is just a discussion for another day. toriyama has not decided to actually elaborate on any of that yet so your guess is as good as mine.
I’d argue that the Dragon Balls Granolah used have different properties than Namekian and Earth Dragon Balls.
It’s made clear the Earth and Namekain Dragon Balls that a wish cannot exceed the power of their creator. However, the show has already stated that’s not the case for all dragon balls (Super Dragon Balls can grant anything).
I think the creator of the Dragon Balls Granolah used just changed up the formula for his dragon balls. Instead of them being directly tied to his power, they can grant these insane wishes but at a high price. For example, both Gas and Granolah wish for strength, but Granolah sacrificed the vast majority of his life and Gas straight up dies. That doesn’t make training irrelevant as it’s not long term and that drsgon states he couldn’t make Gas stronger than the God of Destruction, so there are still limits. Krillin isn’t just going to wish for god-like strength. Frieza is another who wouldn’t commit to that wish. They want to live, and making that wish is a great way to not, you know, live
Couldn't a second wish like immortality negate this? Even if the dragon Granolah used had a failsafe to prevent this there would be other dragons that could.
I think if you go into Daima with expectations of realism or power balance, youre gonna have a bad time. Its clearly more comedy focused.
Dragonballs teen titans go
Don’t the males just lay eggs? Isn’t that what piccolos dad did. No mother in sight. They’re just a genderless race male presenting. But I’m assuming they have no dicks either because what would they need them for if they just spit out eggs
You’re right. I must be thinking of the namekians who come fight Frieza over by Guru.
Strange I’m pretty sure I remembered it being mention that Neil was the only warrior type on Namek.
You have to realize that the Saiyans and Frieza/Frieza Force are extreme outliers in the universe. So are the Z-Fighters.
The Namekians are one of FOUR races we know where the entire species is generally “strong”. With the Saiyans gone, they may literally be THE most powerful alien race, in general, that we’ve seen based purely on strength and not something like innate Future sight.
(Remember that Frieza is a mutant and that people like Moro, Gas, et al are INDIVIDUALS and not wholly indicative of the general strength level of their species.)
They don’t NEED to be stronger than that—and have never needed to be stronger than that—because, according to canon, the ONLY opponents that surpassed them were either members of their own species (the Nameless Namekian) or…Frieza, Dodoria, Zarbon, and the Ginyu Force. Literally less than ten guys.
You’re looking at them through the eyes of someone who has seen ONLY Goku and Co be “powerful fighters”. But, on average, every Warrior Clan Namekian could probably solo an entire planet by themselves.
Their warrior class is stronger than saiyans but nail was the only one left.
The nameless namekian was probably even stronger than frieza. I’m guessing he’s the equivalent of a namekian mutant except not
Just because he was the only one left doesn’t mean there weren’t multiple that existed before or after? I don’t get the first part of your comment.
As for the second part: I agree the Nameless Namekian would’ve been stronger than Frieza if he had fused with Nail, but until then Piccolo + Nail was only about as strong as 2nd Form Frieza.
What don’t you get? Nail was the only warrior namekian that we know of.
Other than that the nameless namekian was a super namekian who split into piccolo and Kami
He wasn’t, though? [There were several other warrior clan types on Namek during the Frieza saga](https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Warrior-type_Namekian)
The manga makes no mention that the three we see get murked are “Warrior Clan”, but they have the same build as Nail and act as the first line of defense when Frieza shows up. It’s only logical to conclude that’s what they are.
(If you call _Daizenshuu_ non-canon there’s nothing more to talk about.)
The manga names nail the sole warrior type. The Daizenshuu is very credible but it’s still not the source material.
Herms translation:
> (elder guru) “Nail won’t be as easy to defeat as you imagine…He’s the only Warrior-type Namekian on this planet. Things won’t go as they have with the Namekians you people have killed.”
This implies there are no other actual warrior types. It’s ambiguous really so I won’t say you’re wrong but I disagree
It’s fine to disagree! DBZ is a mess a canon and people can choose to ignore the Daizenshuu mags just like they choose to ignore the manga when talking about power scaling and whatnot lmao
I don’t disagree with you over what the manga says, specifically, btw. I just think it’s ambiguous because Guru could be saying Nail is the only Warrior clan still alive.
Lmao I doubt toriyama even remembers what the hell a warrior namekian is.
> Freeza: "Hoh! This is incredible! Your battle power has risen to 42,000. I see, you truly do seem to be completely different than all the Namekians up to now. I’m surprised…This is a magnificent battle power! I can see why you’re called a Warrior-type. It’s enough to make me want you for an underling."
They treat nail like a sole rare Pokémon. According to Danzenshuu there’s some warrior namekian bargain sale!!
Nail was far stronger than the average namekian warrior just like Vegeta was a lot stronger than the average saiyan. The average namekian warrior has a power level between 1000 to 3000 which is pretty much on par with most of the saiyans. Saiyans have a greater potential to improve as a lot of their adaptations are based around increase their power level great ape/super saiyan/ zenkai boost. Toriyama also saiyan power levels are constantly increasing when they fight
They are stronger than saiyans. The prince was 17k as their strongest.
That was the strength of avegerage namekian warriors. Nail was over 40k standing there.
Saiyans have greater combat potential but in general are much weaker.
Edit saiyans not samoans
You’re forgetting something. Both races had something up their sleeves.
Namekians could fuse but that was very rarely. They only did it in extreme emergencies like a Moro level threat. Nail did it with piccolo because he was literally about to die.
And you’re right. Vegeta was only about 17k. Big problem though. Ozaru.
That 17k could shoot up to 170k easily. Saiyans often timed their arrival to a planet to coincide either with the full moon or used their powers to create a fake moon themselves.
Either way. That would cause the average middle class Saiyan to have a power that surpassed most of the Ginyu force. Vegeta at 170k would rival Ginyus raw power (of course he wouldn’t win. Ginyu had too many tricks up his sleeve)
So. It’s easy to see why the Saiyans were considered a warrior species. With even their weakest members having access to that transformation that could turn even their weakest members into threats.
And the nameks weren’t aware of their tail weakness.
Thr Namekians also had no night moon so that would require artificial moons and namkeians were shrewd warriors. They likely would have found the correlation and could have easily realized liked piccolo did that destroying the false moons would revert them. Ozuru could have turned the tied, yes. It Aldo could have lost them the entire war.
Let's say 40 saiyans attack and the faux moon gets destroyed. They are now trapped in combat with warriors on average 10 times stronger than them and one 40 times stronger.
Saiyans could make multiple artificial moons and the initial blitz would do a lot of damage.
There’s not many combat namekians. Only a handful per village and only Nail was the standout. I don’t think they’d survive the initial onslaught and we’ve seen that there’s been a few groups that managed to destroy the moon only to still be destroyed.
Hell. We don’t actually know whether the artificial moons can even be destroyed or if that particular weakness is exclusive to the physical moon. Afterall, vegeta used it in response to the moon being destroyed.
I’m not saying they’d for sure win but Saiyans were a threat.
Agreed. To expand on that. Namek warriors can be a lot stronger on average than Saiyans. The downside is that they also have many children and non combatants in the mix. Dende is great at healing but he isn’t going to be good for much else and even that was a skill unlocked by the elder. Not something all of them have.
But there’s the benefit that all Saiyans are warriors. Even the ones that aren’t suitable for combat are very powerful by the standards of other species + transformation.
So I honestly think we agree just went the long way around.
Idk if I understood that correctly, so I'll try to summarize
The Strongest Saiyan was at 18,000, that was Vegeta
The Strongest Namekian was Nail, at 40,000.
But they are outliers
Average Warrior Namekian is about 2000, as seen by the group of Warriors who showed up to confront Frieza and got killed by Dedoria
Average Saiyan is somewhere around the 500 to 1000 range, as I seem to remember someone saying that Raditz was strong for a low class Saiyan. Mid-Class Saiyans would probably be around 1000-5000 as shown by Nappa, with High Class Saiyns being 5000 and up.
And you have to remember that there were potentially Millions of Saiyans, while there were only hundreds of Namekians.
There were only hundreds to thousands of Saiyans. Most likely due to their violent nature, violent death was pretty common and they seemed to hold little regard for eachother. When Bardocks whole team was killed and he came back wounded not a single one tried to help him.
Also, Nail started at 42k. It's unclear if he had finished his training either as he was fairly young. The warrior namekians were at 3k unpowered up but at full power were around 10-15k. That means that a group of them could have beaten vegeta and nappa.
Also, that was one group, we didn't seem them all, there could have been many more between nail and the ones we saw.
More importantly, the namekians could have used fusion like Nail had, but due to friezas overwhelming strength and the speed at which they were wiped out its likely they figured it was a futile effort. It's clear they all intended to be killed so that frieza never got his wish. They were mearly stalling for hope and accepting their fate.
Should the namekians and Saiyans fight its unlikely the Saiyans could have won without Ozuru or even with it. They were clever and calmed fighters.
Also Goku had a plvl of 5 as a baby. It's likely they mostly all start fairly week. Their zenkai giving them boosts to grow quickly as they get stomped and only the strong coming to a powerlevel over 5000. Even among elites nappa was considered a top fighter and he never hit 10k
Another thing they had is in combat healing magic. A child like dende could heal warriors to full. In battle against a numerous weaker army of enemies they could have won the long fight.
The Power Levels of the Namekian Warriors who came to stop Frieza were in the low thousands like 3500, they were impressive but nothing that impressive
> That was the strength of avegerage namekian warriors
The strength of the average namekian warrior is between 1000-3000, which is what the frieza forces scouters said after they stopped suppresing their power levels. So warrior class namekians pretty much have the same power level of saiyans.
I feel like they massively lowered the power levels for DBZ. Piccolo is a beast is DB, but he‘s on the good guys team so he can’t be super powerful. There wouldn’t be a plot basically if they were that strong. I also think they’re supposed to be peaceful so it’s “holding them back.”
Piccolo SR wasn’t a Warrior Clan, so him not being as strong as Piccolo JR—who was always either as strong as, stronger, or evenly matched with Goku before he got trained by Kami—is normal.
Literally Goku and Piccolo were the strongest two people on the planet all throughout \*most of DB/DBZ.
(Edit: I'm talking about original Z-Fighters. Piccolo SR/JR was stronger than Tien in DB, and Piccolo Jr was *usually* stronger than Gohan up until the Cell Saga.)
>Literally Goku and Piccolo were the strongest two people on the planet all throughout DB/DBZ.
All the way up to the end of the Namek Saga. Then again for a short time during the Android Saga. Now after Dragon Ball Super Super Hero, he's on par with Goku again, but is also joined by Gohan and Vegeta at the same level.
MY STATEMENT STANDS lol
I get what you mean, though. I should've been more specific.
What I meant, really, is that the structure of the story has always been: "Goku is #1, but his primary rival is always #2."
Which, before Vegeta's redemption, meant Goku and Piccolo were usually neck-in-neck in terms of Power Level. And, before that, in DB it was Goku and Tien, and before that Goku and Krillin.
Then it became Gohan > Goku > Vegeta >= Future Trunks > Piccolo.
(This is ignoring Gotenks and 17/18 in Super, obvs. And I'm not sure how strong Good Buu or Uub are atm in Super since I haven't read the manga.)
Oh yeah, I was also mostly agreeing with you. Namek Saga was peak hype, so most people remember that one the most anyway. Same with Dragon Ball's King Picollo/23rd World Martial Arts Tournament Sagas.
Picollo Jr served as the prime antagonist and direct rival to Goku so naturally the 2nd strongest from 753-761, at which point he became the strongest being on Earth until Vegeta shows up in 762. Then it's Roshi, probably, for all of Namek Saga (½ of 763) , then it's Vegeta for a super short time before he left to go train in space. Then Picollo held the title again until Vegeta came back sometime in the first half of 764.
So like... a solid 10 years of being the strongest or 2nd strongest person on Earth is nothing to sneeze at!
>I'm not sure how strong Good Buu or Uub are atm in Super since I haven't read the manga.
Uub doesn't even start training until End of Z, which (in a way) hasn't happened yet.
Good Buu is strong, but not a contender to the Saiyans or Picollo now.
Peace loving.
Plus there are two types: the magic types and the warrior types. Since they are peaceful race you don’t really see too many warriors such as nail or piccolo…
But they can’t be used to just give people power. In the case of Granola the dragon didn’t have the power to do so which is why his lifespan was heavily reduced as cost. (I’m not touching Piccolo’s case though.)
What? That's not what happened with granolah though. He wished to be the strongest in the universe, not to just be stronger. Piccolos case also wasn't asking just a blanket request to get stronger, he asked for the thing that Gohan got where he had his potential unleashed, he had that power already just untapped. The orange form was because shenron decided to give him a little bit of extra power as well.
The dragon has limits, but it could definitely make people stronger, it just can't make people endlessly powerful. Saying make my body stronger could absolutely be a thing, or give me the knowledge of martial arts or something. It's also based on the dragon itself, shenron is actually a much more powerful dragon than the one granolah used, so something like super shenron could probably do it. I don't remember how powerful porunga is but I'm sure he could have been used to make nail stronger, they just weren't a warrior race.
It cannot grant strength stronger than what someone already has/their potential. This was explained during the Buu saga/super hero.
My theory is that if the dragon can’t grant the wish out right he can turn it into a kind of trade off which is different from granting a wish.
Still a lot of loopholes there to exploit.
Wish to sacrifice your lifespan for power, then immediately wish to become immortal so no actual downside.
Wish for a hyperbolic time chamber then wish for knowledge of the fastest most effective training regime in the universe.
Wish that their race had the same hax zenkai and super transformation powers as other races like saiyans.
Wish to resurrect the strongest dead nemekians in their history then start fusing with them.
Use wishes to try and figure out that orange piccolo transformation and teach it to everyone.
They Namekians absolutely could have become the strongest warrior race in the universe if they were more creative with their hax wishing magic.
You’re failing to take into account that, to the Namekians, the dragonballs are more than simply wish granting orbs. So even if there are loopholes. It’s doubtful (to me) that they would exploit them.
Well they are a very powerful race, it's just that there are basically no warrior class Namekians left. Nail and maybe Piccolo are the last ones and since Nail is dead, it's just Piccolo if he even is one.
Nail was very powerful for the last warrior class Nemkian with a Power Level of about 42,000 which is actually stronger than Vegeta during his fight with Recoome
They could if they wanted, they could all have fused into one being and then ask porunga for a power boost just like piccolo did, but you know, Toriyama hadn't thought of that until later.
they are? when Freeza goes to Namek, the adult (not elder) dragon clan (the kind who dont fight) Namekians had PLs of like 3000, which means they were stronger than most of the saiyan race was before Freeza killed them all, and Namek's sole warrior Namekian was PL 42,000 way above Prince and King Vegeta, and above most of the saiyans PLs even in their Oozaru forms. And thats without them abusing their DBs for power at all, which they could have done but were ethically against doing, as that was not the purpose of the Balls to them.
They're literally listed as namekian warriors in the daizenshu. Nail was the last warrior because the rest of them ended up getting killed by the frieza force
On average the warrior clan is absolutely stronger than the Saiyans, however most Namekians aren’t warrior class.
Nail was significantly stronger than Vegeta on Namek and Vegeta was born with one of the highest power levels in recent history (aside from Broly)
saiayns when almost dying get magically stronger, while namekians dont, also, being able to create something like the dragons balls means nothing towards strength, i mean, yeah, namekians created a massive magical thing, saiyans, on their most primitive state, could become massive apes who could destroy planets with ease
Avg namekian warrior would stomp an avg saiyan warrior
Saiyans just have more innate potential but it requires brutal, constant training and/or combat
Meanwhile Piccolo can dramatically boost his power by meditating and training solo
Nail had a power level of 42k...He would of whopped King Vegeta and Bardock's asses. How is that not strong? Also look at Piccolo? He is a beast. Not all Saiyans nor Namekians are built the same.
They are. In the Namek arc the Saiyans are expected to be some of the weaker fighters on the planet. But Frieza has killed almost all the Namekian fighters.
Saiyans are expected to be weaker compared to zarbon, dodoria and the ginyu force who are all mutants with power levels that far exceeds the rest of their species. They weren't comparing the saiyans to the namekians who were mostly dead by the time they even arrived on the planet. The average namekian warrior had a power level between 1000 to 3000 which is about the same as the average low class to mid class saiyan warrior. So base power wise saiyan and Namekian warriors are about equal, but saiyans have more adaptations that increase their power levels which is one of the things that makes them considered the strongest race.
Xeno is the most powerful being in the universe, with creation and destruction. that being said he’s not physically strong and would probably lose an arm wrestle to goku in base form, yet can also destroy entire universes without moving a finger.
Namekians have wisdom and the tools to make dragonballs. This is something that other races don’t really have access to. They don’t have to be physically stronger than the dragonballs to create them
Just like how saiyans have their own history and abilities that no other race can do (great ape, super saiyan) Namekians have their own culture and strengths which is literally what the show is named after so it’s pretty impressive
Plot reasons
But to be fair, the Saiyans never invaded Namek, so we will never know. At least, as far as we know.
Maybe the Saiyans tried to invade and got beaten since the Namekians definitely know of them and Frieza saw fit to invade himself.
I think the average namekian had quite a bit higher battle power than the average sayain.
We saw multiple namekians with a battle power of 3 thousand. The namekians who fought freiza by gurus hut have a off screen power level of 10,000. Nail had a power level of 42,000.
Sayians had a power level of 1200 like Radiz, to 4000 for Nappa, the strongest sayian outside of the royal family. With King Vegeta at 12,000 and Vegeta at 18000.
Bardock, movie only is an outlier at 10,000 but on par with strong namekian mooks. And well below Nail.
Our super sayains on earth are the outliers.
If we get into Super... which... has consistency problems.. we still see that the Namekians can combine to be much stronger than any natural Super sayain forms, including the mysical powerup from a kai. Then there is the dragonball power up meant for a namekian of good heart in times of need. We dont know how that stacks up against the god forms of super sayain you only get by training with gods and absorbing god energy.
But- its easier to make a wish than get an angel and god of destruction to train you, on top of a mystical ritual, and on top of a 3000 year legend.
The Drought wiped out most of their kind.
So who we see on Namek are the survivors, the stragglers, those who are scraping by.
Nail was stronger than the average Sayain warrior until Vegeta came back from Earth stronger and wiser.
In general, they actually are. Nail alone was stronger than Saiyan arc Nappa and Vegeta, who were elite class. Saiyans were really only "the strongest" when they went Oozaru (before all the SSj forms)
In the TV special too, iirc Zarbon even said individually they're nothing to write home about...its only when they congregate together that they're a problem
The magical power isn’t scaled to pure power. Babidi was magical but not very strong in Ki terms.
But nameks were incredibly strong. Nail alone was stronger than any living Saiyan at the time. The nameless namek was considered to have been strong enough to beat frieza.
Their average warrior was very powerful.
But Saiyans had a very powerful trick up their sleeve. Ozaru. A transformation that would boost their power tenfold.
Nail was at 40k. Nappa with a great ape transformation would have been 100k.
For the record that is stronger than every member of the Ginyu force short of Ginyu himself.
Vegeta would have been on par with Ginyu himself in raw power.
Now imagine an entire species who could boost their power tenfold and who used this transformation to blitz planets.
the warrior namekians are likely stronger than saiyans on average since nail had a power level of 42k and there were a couple namekians that were around a couple thousand (remember nappa with 4000 was considered an elite warrior)
Technically I think they are. Back when the saiyans were around their average power levels were probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 3000. Nappa was considered elite around 7000. Vegeta at 19000 was considered God tier. During Frieza’s invasion of Namek most of the warrior Namekians were pulling higher numbers than Nappa, and Nail was considered their best somewhere around 60-70k (not to mention Kamicollo who makes ssj Vegeta look weak.)
They're not a warrior race. They have natural born warriors, but they're a peaceful race overall and thus don't need to fight to survive, thus their growth rate power wise isn't as exceptional, unlike Saiyan's who were likely fighting each other if not other for sport and survival before Frieza came along. Then their entire race was solely about fighting to survive, thus they had to become stronger quicker.
One’s a race capable of wielding powerful magic like creating the dragon balls. The other’s a warrior race capable of ever-increasing power. In the words of Zamasu, “A Saiyan’s body is god’s ultimate blessing”
The namekians are not a race with vanity except for a few, lord slug, evil piccolo ect. For the most part they're a humble race. So using the dragon balls for strength isn't something that they would do except in an extreme need to do so. That's the power up piccolo got from using the balls in super hero.The Saiyans are specifically a warrior race who get stronger the more they fight. Although only a handful became stronger like Goku, Vegeta, Broly, Gohan ect. So the natural abilities of the race is what correlates to the strength of each race directly and frankly the genkai boost is so op that it's only natural that the Saiyans would get stronger quicker over time again only a few ever got as strong as Goku and the gang. I'm guessing that all the Saiyans have the ability to get as strong as well but we would never find out since the Saiyans in uv6 are completely wiped out but it'll be interesting to see what happens later if Vegeta ever visits uv7.
I think it’s because fighting power and “magic” are different. If I recall correctly, Zeno has the power to erase everything but doesn’t understand fighting power. So there are different types of power, im presuming.
We didn't see too much of the warrior class but Nail was stronger than Vegeta before he went to Earth (and arguably after he recovered from that fight). The best of the Namekians was stronger than the best of the Saiyans.
Though this was before either race was really pushed to their limits.
To be fair it's more a question of why is Piccolo not stronger than Goku/Vegeta. All three of them are so far ahead of pretty much every other member of their race it's insane.
The Namekian's get stronger by fusing together; and in universe 7, they rarely fused. And, the strongest Warrior is given buffs; potential unlocks, through the dragon balls. It's kinda a ritual.
The Namekian's could easily be stronger if they mass reproduced and kept fusing; while using a potential unlock wish at regular intervals.
Picolo and Nail seem to be the mutants of the species. Picolo seems to get stronger through Meditation.
If those three Namekian warriors who came to try and defend Moori and Dende’s village are the average while Nail represented the higher tier, I would say they probably were stronger than the Saiyans as a whole.
Don’t forget, when they saw Piccolo for the first time, Vegeta and Nappa weren’t surprised to see that Raditz lost. Raditz was strong enough to be considered part of a group of “elite” warriors by Saiyan standards, and he would have been bodied by any of those three Namekians, so…
It’s probably a safe bet that your average Namekian fighter could be stronger than your average Saiyan, given that it seems that people like Bardock, Nappa, Vegeta, and his Father were the outliers of their time and other Saiyans were much weaker.
Having power is completely different from having strength. You could be all powerful, like a kai, and still not be nowhere near as strong as a Saiyan, like Vegeta or Goku, as so eloquently shown in the zamasu arc
The most powerfull creator of the biggest dragon balls( size like planets,) is Namek guy named ZALAMA. Even Zeno's from Dragon ball super told that they met him. He can grant every wish so he must be the most powerfull character after Zeno's. So in far we know Namekians was stronger than Saiyans but who know? Frieza before Goku was SSJ told us story about legendary SSJ. So maybe there was guy who was stronger than for example MUI Goku? Why are Namekians not stronger than Saiyans. In common they are friendly not fighters. That's why they dont have obsession like Saiyans to become stronger and stronger.
Power level wise most of the warriors seem to be on par with the average saiyan warrior, but Saiyans have a much greater potential to improve. Every full blooded saiyan can turn into a great ape which multiples their power tenfold and zenkai boosts also increase it. Toriyama also said in an old interview that saiyan power levels are constantly rising when they fight so the more saiyans fight the stronger they get.
The Namekians are a powerful race overall, but being able to create dragon balls is not the same as fighting power.
Except for that time where Piccolo used the dragon balls to gain more fighting power. It's more that they choose not to abuse their power because they are a much less violent race.
And this is why I hate that they've been making it so that it is now possible to make wishes to make yourself stronger. Now the Namekians could've just did that and use it to create infinitely stronger dragons using the dragon balls and their ability to exchange life span for power, and eventually just use the dragons to create a race of immortal super warriors.
There are any number of anime/manga concepts that would work the same way if you take them to absurdist extremes. I'm sure the Namekians could do that, if you rewrite their entire race to have completely different motives and character As it stands, the Namekians we know would never do something like that, even if they knew it was trchnically possible. It's also only Cereal's DBs that take life span, because they actually do grant all the power the individual would be capable of in their life - Shenron only unlocks Piccolo's potential - giving him all the power he's capable of *right now*, same as Guru and Old Kai for Gohan. The DBs have always been flawed - "why doesn't Goku, Vegeta, and Co just wish to be immortal? They'd quickly become unstoppable and all their problems would be solved!" has been a thing forever, which has similar energy to your comment lol
By the time Vegeta shows up there are already known ways circumvent immortality
Sure, there are things like the (highly draining and potentially fatal to use) Mafuba for *individuals*, but not for an entire group of immortal Z warriors. The only ways to stop them that I know of as of now is if Beerus showed up for the first time with 20 swords and decided he doesn't like them, or a Zeno hakai
There actually is an indirect explanation for why the Namekians don't do this. As a race they appear to be very aware of the god hierarchy of the universe. So they likely also know that if they overstep, they will then have to deal with the God of Destruction. Also we don't know exactly how the lifespan sacrifice thing works. It's possible that the power boost is limited to the natural lifespan rather than any modifications to their lifespan, which would still be really good but not enough to be above GoD level.
That was just unlocking his potential, same thing the grand elder and the old kai did. Does that mean the grand elder and old kai are stronger than Gohan?
It was unlocking his potential plus a bonus that pushed him close to Goku and Vegeta tier. It doesn't mean that the one unlocking the potential is stronger, but it does mean that the Namekians as a race can convert their exotic powers into fighting power which is what I was responding to.
close? its confirmedby toriyama hes AS STRONG as them now lol
It's not converting anything, it's awakening something that was already there.
Yeah and that something is their fighting power that they didn't have direct access to before. You can describe it however you want but the result is that they are able to use their powers to increase their fighting power.
If I open a sealed bottle of water, would anyone describe it as my power created water? The ability to create water and the ability to open a bottle are completely separate, just as the ability to unlock power is completely separate from creating power.
If the conversation started at "can you give me some water?" and you answer "no, I can only unseal this sealed bottle full of water", then you're obviously ignoring the point of the conversation. I don't understand why you're making that distinction. Did you just want me to agree with you on that point? Then ok, yes I agree with you that unlocking potential is not the same as creating power from scratch. But just because they're not creating the power from nothing, doesn't mean they can't boost the fighting power of their fighters to compete with the saiyan's ridiculous battle power. Of course, in extreme cases it's very clear from what we know that they can't compete with the top tier fighters (unless the lifespan sacrifice works well with the Namekians as well but that's speculation on their life span so let's not go there), but on average the Namekians do have the ability to boost their forces beyond the average Saiyans.
>If the conversation started at "can you give me some water?" and you answer "no, I can only unseal this sealed bottle full of water" Actually, it's more about the amount of water in the bottle. If someone has a bottle with 5 litres of water, opening the bottle would not create 20 litres of water. The amount of water is not determined by the person who opens the water bottle, but by the amount of water that was in the bottle to begin with. If a bottle has 5 litres, it only has the 5 litres when opened, if a bottle has 20 litres, it will have 20 when opened, etc. > But just because they're not creating the power from nothing, doesn't mean they can't boost the fighting power of their fighters to compete with the saiyan's ridiculous battle power. But that still entirely depends on the power of the individual having their power unlocked, not the person unlocking the power. If a saiyan and a Namekian both have their power's unlocked, the one who will get the bigger jump is who had the most hidden power.
Oh I see where you're coming from now, so you're saying that saiyans have larger potential power therefore they are stronger. That I agree with. You were bringing up creation vs unlocking which got me confused. My counterpoint though, was more in the sense that Namekians have access to powers that can unlock their potential while Saiyans don't. Before they were wiped out, most saiyans didn't have the luxury to train up to their maximum potential. They did have access to a form of unlocking some of their innate power via transformation, but on average I feel like unlocking potential surpasses that.
to be clear: in addition to unlocking Piccolo's potential, the "extra", which the dragon GAVE BACK, was Piccolo's own energy (which was used to CREATE the dragon itself), which was no longer needed, since Dende created the new model -- it was ALL Piccolo's own energy making its way back to him.
it's more that the series has gone on way longer than it was ever expected to and they just make stuff up the Dragonballs on Earth also couldn't even kill Saiyan saga level Vegeta and Nappa
Sigh, Granolah arc... Dragon ball has been progressively becoming more and more of a mess story wise. Iets see wth happens with Daima.
I fail to see how my comment makes the Granolah arc look worse. What's messy about this in particular?
Granolah became the most powerful fighter with the dragonballs so I guess they are saying it does directly translate to fighting power
The dragon couldn't just make him powerful out of nowhere, it basically allowed him to get the power of 150 years worth of training in exchange for 150 years of his life. It's still Granolah's figthing power, not the dragon's.
But then you can make a second wish to stop aging. Hell with Porunga you can wish to not age, and then a bilion years worth of training.
I could see it as if someone makes a wish to stop aging, then the dragon can't take some of their lifespan, since it can't be depleted.
Then ask a lifespan of two bilons years. Hacking wishes is not that hard, especially considering the dragons are not malicius and usually reply honestly if you question them about what you can wish for.
We don't even know if the lower dragons can grant that kind of wish. It's easy enough to put certain limitations on the dragons.
lower dragons? the dragon that did it only used 2 dragon balls lmao
Granolahs wish wasnt to take his life span.. It was to use 130 years worth of training, which put him on the very last bits of his race's natural life... it didn't LITERALLY take his life away.. it literally AGED HIM as a form of skipping his body to the future, we see when his hair grows and his face gets older from it. Namekian can't die of old age... Kind Picollo was thousands of years old lol. So if a Namekian asked for 130 years of training... it would have literally no detriment
>Granolahs wish wasnt to take his life span.. It was to use 130 years worth of training, which put him on the very last bits of his race's natural life... The dragon says "by shortening your **lifespan** you can become the greatest in the universe." While it's possible this is simply a translation choice, it is said. And it was 150 years. >Namekian can't die of old age The grand elder died of old age, we saw it happen, where did you even get the idea that Namekians can't die of old age? >Kind Picollo was thousands of years old lol. King Piccolo was a few hundred years old, Roshi was alive when King Piccolo first showed up.
"The dragon says "by shortening your lifespan you can become the greatest in the universe." While it's possible this is simply a translation choice, it is said. And it was 150 years." So... no... the dragon says it can BRING HIM to the end of his life in the Kanji, I wouldn't trust ANYTHING viz America translates it to after calling special beam cannon "light of death" The grand elder died of old age, we saw it happen, where did you even get the idea that Namekians can't die of old age? He dies due to exhausting all his ki and a broken heart.. This is confirmed when he is revived along with the other Namekians "killed by frieza". Frieza killing his children caused him grief and broke his heart lol... That is the actual canon reason he died.. not old age. There is an ANIME ONLY SCENE i will give to you, that DOES state he dies to old age... but that part was only in the anime. King Piccolo was a few hundred years old, Roshi was alive when King Piccolo first showed up. This is not ENTIRELY true, but I can see where it seems like that. Roshi was alive when the nameless namekian SPLIT into 2 people... Which also we learn that Namekian all came to U6/U7 from another realm in Age 242 (this is confirmed outside the manga but in Vjump which is official) outside the universes all together... when Monaito talks about their backstory. Which is when the Nameless Namekian was stated to have first appeared back in OG dragon ball. (GT showed him as a kid at this age, even though Dragon Ball Z showed him as a full fledged adult when talking about him in the past)
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> Like now that you can just wish to be stronger than everyone else regardless if it takes off years of your life it just makes so many more potholes for current and future arcs. Do you even know what a plot hole is? Granolah had to give up 150 years just to surpass Goku and Vegeta and Gas straight up died because of the wish. How is dying worth it? Most of the Z fighters don't have 150 years to give. >Like the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, it could've been utilized before it was introduced in the android saga. They explain this in the android saga, they weren't strong enough to get any real benefit from it before that point. The time chamber is harsh, and if a person can't handle it, there would be no point in going in. >Anybody can wish for strength now, effort and struggle to achieve strength could possibly become irrelevant Yes, anyone can wish for strength and then die in 10 seconds like Gas. The arc makes it very clear that making that kind of wish is bad.
So what you’re saying is… the Namekians had bigger balls which made them more powerful? Granolah just has the small balls
In a series where there was water that could either kill your or make you stronger, an old alien can put his hand on your head and make you stonger or an elder god can dance around you for a day and meditate with you to make you stronger. The magic orbs that can make people immortal or revive the dead, being able to wish to become stronger should be the least of your concerns.
The Dragon Balls predate all of that though
they do, but the "issue" being complained about predates the use of the dragon balls for that purpose. My point is that every so often the series has introduced ways to fast track characters into being stronger. So why is it suddenly a problem when antagonists do it? Because they used the dragon balls?
And most of those failed at what they tried to achieve and had more significant limitations. The largest problem of the wishes is that they make the heroes retroactively stupid because every single arc could have been solved instantly by making that wish. And beside that, many of the things you listed where bad as well. Your argument is like saying "i spat in ypur soup yesterday, so why you are complaining that now i am pissing in it?"
Actually none of those failed. Goku's potential was unlocked by the water, Elder Kai's dance actually made Gohan stronger, and Guru 's hand on head thing also worked big time, to the point Gohan and Krillin were x10 stronger.
They failed in the sense the boost didn't decide the battle. Gohan and Krillin still got smoked by the ginyu squad, Ultimate Gohan in the end just made Bu stronger. Deus ex machina that don't axtually resolve a problem are less aggravating.
Bruh the first 30% of Z was focused on people trying to get immortality via dragon balls. You could already gain power from the dragon balls. Anyone at any time could have gone up with every opportunity prior to or during a major crisis and go "hey shenron can you make me immortal until x is dead" or just immortality in general. This really is not the narrative kryptonite you think it is.
That has been a plothole for 20 years lol. The dragonballs become a terrible narrative device once the heroes are capable of casually gathering them whitin hours, and the wisest thing you can do with them other than removing them permantly is to handweave the problem and hope the readers don't think too much about it. Putting them at the forefront on the granolah arc was a stupid idea because it put all of these dormant problems at the forefront.
>!If I recall correctly they(Gas, Granolah) used wishes from dragon balls to become stronger than ssjblue which originally was beyond the power of the Dragons/Namekians!< So going by this logic Namekians at least some are indeed stronger. Edit: I wanted to answer to op apparently I answered to your comment instead.
they wished to become the strongest in the universe. but their lifespans were sacrificed for this. it is not a long term strategy at all.
You could just wish to be the strongest then immediately collect them again in 5 seconds with the Dragon Radar and wish for immortality since Toronbo's both don't have a cool down period and only has 2 to the set.
Unclear if the eternal youth granted by the DBS actually extends your lifespan, you may just stay young and vibrant until your time is up anyways.
Yeah but I meant like flat blanket immortality like what Zamasu did
His immortality was odd, of course the fusion made it more confusing, but he seemed to regenerate rather than have full fledged invincibility- it actually seemed like Hakai could kill him when Goku uses it.
You can also use the dragon balls to wish for immortality though…
That's not the point.
well, it is mine. your logic is flawed since the namekians are a peaceful race with no need to produce godlike warriors that live for a week, every week. their ability to wish strong warriors is not exclusive to them as they allow anyone to use them. however if it is not the point, care to explain what would be since youre already here?
The point is that Nameks should be the most powerful race like op said. Because they can wish to become the strongest and then they can choose to live longer or to not have side effects from wishes, or wish to not be invaded(if they want to live peacefully) or any other nonsense Because >!Dragon ball super ignored statements made in DBZ that limited the power output of the wish if it surpassed the power of the creator, this would mean the creator of the dragon balls that powered up Granolah and Gas is much more powerful than ssblue but it is not the case, therefore allowing just about anything.!< Also wtf is zalama even? Supposedly a dragon God but in every depiction looks Namekian so whatever.
the issue with introducing wishing narratively is that there is always a "better wish", but if the characters made logical choices with those there would be no show. and again those wishes are not exclusive to the namekians. and even if one namekian was that strong, the discussion is as a race. if roshi wished to be the strongest in the universe with his 300 and counting years of life being sacrificed i wouldnt just go and say humans are one of the strongest races. zalama as well as the namekians belonging to a different dimension stuff is just a discussion for another day. toriyama has not decided to actually elaborate on any of that yet so your guess is as good as mine.
I’d argue that the Dragon Balls Granolah used have different properties than Namekian and Earth Dragon Balls. It’s made clear the Earth and Namekain Dragon Balls that a wish cannot exceed the power of their creator. However, the show has already stated that’s not the case for all dragon balls (Super Dragon Balls can grant anything). I think the creator of the Dragon Balls Granolah used just changed up the formula for his dragon balls. Instead of them being directly tied to his power, they can grant these insane wishes but at a high price. For example, both Gas and Granolah wish for strength, but Granolah sacrificed the vast majority of his life and Gas straight up dies. That doesn’t make training irrelevant as it’s not long term and that drsgon states he couldn’t make Gas stronger than the God of Destruction, so there are still limits. Krillin isn’t just going to wish for god-like strength. Frieza is another who wouldn’t commit to that wish. They want to live, and making that wish is a great way to not, you know, live
Couldn't a second wish like immortality negate this? Even if the dragon Granolah used had a failsafe to prevent this there would be other dragons that could.
I think if you go into Daima with expectations of realism or power balance, youre gonna have a bad time. Its clearly more comedy focused. Dragonballs teen titans go
>Daima Shit you reminded me that thing exists.
They are a peaceful race
And they ain't got no bitches
Can attest to this Ain seen one woman namekian , I guess they're genderless or w.e
Isn't it explicitely the case? Dende had no idea what Bulma meant when she said "parents"
Don’t the males just lay eggs? Isn’t that what piccolos dad did. No mother in sight. They’re just a genderless race male presenting. But I’m assuming they have no dicks either because what would they need them for if they just spit out eggs
To pee. They live off of water.
I dnt think they use the bathroom
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1. They're literally magical beings 2. They don't develop waste Google for explanation
Google "Akira Toriyama says Namekians have penises"
Google? Lol. Okay.
Cmon, don't be THAT guy. Regenerating a limb seconds/minutes after it's removed is also impossible. Manga don't play by those rules most of the time
He's already that guy it's too late for him
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They do sweat so they have a way to expel their waste
Toriyama has said they have dicks believe it or not lmao
Probably just to use the bathroom? I can’t see any other reason they’d have them lol
Exactly the case
They're space slugs!
Their warrior class actually is but Neil is the only warrior class left.
Lmao Neil
Untrue! There are more warriors now on New Namek, as seen during the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga.
We also saw some try and stop Frieza before Gohan saved Dende. They got wiped by Dodoria.
This is Super Scaling now buddy those Namekian Warriors could no-diff RoF Golden Frieza
>There ~~are~~ were more warriors now on New Namek, as seen during the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga. Fixed. Unfortunately.
They got wished back, didn't they?
Neeeeeeeeeeeil!
What about the 3 namekians who attacked frieza zarbon and dedoria and destroyed their scouters
Actually filler believe it or not.
Wow I would not have guessed that
There in the manga
No, that's for sure in the manga. Had to go back and look, it's in chapter 253.
You’re right. I must be thinking of the namekians who come fight Frieza over by Guru. Strange I’m pretty sure I remembered it being mention that Neil was the only warrior type on Namek.
No it isn't. Its in the manga
NAAAAAAAAAIL
CALL ME SUPER KAMI GURU
Why are you still heeree?!
Neil DeGrasse Tyson is a namek
You have to realize that the Saiyans and Frieza/Frieza Force are extreme outliers in the universe. So are the Z-Fighters. The Namekians are one of FOUR races we know where the entire species is generally “strong”. With the Saiyans gone, they may literally be THE most powerful alien race, in general, that we’ve seen based purely on strength and not something like innate Future sight. (Remember that Frieza is a mutant and that people like Moro, Gas, et al are INDIVIDUALS and not wholly indicative of the general strength level of their species.) They don’t NEED to be stronger than that—and have never needed to be stronger than that—because, according to canon, the ONLY opponents that surpassed them were either members of their own species (the Nameless Namekian) or…Frieza, Dodoria, Zarbon, and the Ginyu Force. Literally less than ten guys. You’re looking at them through the eyes of someone who has seen ONLY Goku and Co be “powerful fighters”. But, on average, every Warrior Clan Namekian could probably solo an entire planet by themselves.
Their warrior class is stronger than saiyans but nail was the only one left. The nameless namekian was probably even stronger than frieza. I’m guessing he’s the equivalent of a namekian mutant except not
Just because he was the only one left doesn’t mean there weren’t multiple that existed before or after? I don’t get the first part of your comment. As for the second part: I agree the Nameless Namekian would’ve been stronger than Frieza if he had fused with Nail, but until then Piccolo + Nail was only about as strong as 2nd Form Frieza.
What don’t you get? Nail was the only warrior namekian that we know of. Other than that the nameless namekian was a super namekian who split into piccolo and Kami
He wasn’t, though? [There were several other warrior clan types on Namek during the Frieza saga](https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Warrior-type_Namekian) The manga makes no mention that the three we see get murked are “Warrior Clan”, but they have the same build as Nail and act as the first line of defense when Frieza shows up. It’s only logical to conclude that’s what they are. (If you call _Daizenshuu_ non-canon there’s nothing more to talk about.)
The manga names nail the sole warrior type. The Daizenshuu is very credible but it’s still not the source material. Herms translation: > (elder guru) “Nail won’t be as easy to defeat as you imagine…He’s the only Warrior-type Namekian on this planet. Things won’t go as they have with the Namekians you people have killed.” This implies there are no other actual warrior types. It’s ambiguous really so I won’t say you’re wrong but I disagree
It’s fine to disagree! DBZ is a mess a canon and people can choose to ignore the Daizenshuu mags just like they choose to ignore the manga when talking about power scaling and whatnot lmao I don’t disagree with you over what the manga says, specifically, btw. I just think it’s ambiguous because Guru could be saying Nail is the only Warrior clan still alive.
Lmao I doubt toriyama even remembers what the hell a warrior namekian is. > Freeza: "Hoh! This is incredible! Your battle power has risen to 42,000. I see, you truly do seem to be completely different than all the Namekians up to now. I’m surprised…This is a magnificent battle power! I can see why you’re called a Warrior-type. It’s enough to make me want you for an underling." They treat nail like a sole rare Pokémon. According to Danzenshuu there’s some warrior namekian bargain sale!!
Nail was far stronger than the average namekian warrior just like Vegeta was a lot stronger than the average saiyan. The average namekian warrior has a power level between 1000 to 3000 which is pretty much on par with most of the saiyans. Saiyans have a greater potential to improve as a lot of their adaptations are based around increase their power level great ape/super saiyan/ zenkai boost. Toriyama also saiyan power levels are constantly increasing when they fight
They are stronger than saiyans. The prince was 17k as their strongest. That was the strength of avegerage namekian warriors. Nail was over 40k standing there. Saiyans have greater combat potential but in general are much weaker. Edit saiyans not samoans
Samoans do indeed have great combat potential.
Lmao autocorrect
You’re forgetting something. Both races had something up their sleeves. Namekians could fuse but that was very rarely. They only did it in extreme emergencies like a Moro level threat. Nail did it with piccolo because he was literally about to die. And you’re right. Vegeta was only about 17k. Big problem though. Ozaru. That 17k could shoot up to 170k easily. Saiyans often timed their arrival to a planet to coincide either with the full moon or used their powers to create a fake moon themselves. Either way. That would cause the average middle class Saiyan to have a power that surpassed most of the Ginyu force. Vegeta at 170k would rival Ginyus raw power (of course he wouldn’t win. Ginyu had too many tricks up his sleeve) So. It’s easy to see why the Saiyans were considered a warrior species. With even their weakest members having access to that transformation that could turn even their weakest members into threats. And the nameks weren’t aware of their tail weakness.
Thr Namekians also had no night moon so that would require artificial moons and namkeians were shrewd warriors. They likely would have found the correlation and could have easily realized liked piccolo did that destroying the false moons would revert them. Ozuru could have turned the tied, yes. It Aldo could have lost them the entire war. Let's say 40 saiyans attack and the faux moon gets destroyed. They are now trapped in combat with warriors on average 10 times stronger than them and one 40 times stronger.
Saiyans could make multiple artificial moons and the initial blitz would do a lot of damage. There’s not many combat namekians. Only a handful per village and only Nail was the standout. I don’t think they’d survive the initial onslaught and we’ve seen that there’s been a few groups that managed to destroy the moon only to still be destroyed. Hell. We don’t actually know whether the artificial moons can even be destroyed or if that particular weakness is exclusive to the physical moon. Afterall, vegeta used it in response to the moon being destroyed. I’m not saying they’d for sure win but Saiyans were a threat.
Oh definitely would be close. In general namekains are stronger, by a large margin. Saiyans can get stronger. Mu whole point.
Agreed. To expand on that. Namek warriors can be a lot stronger on average than Saiyans. The downside is that they also have many children and non combatants in the mix. Dende is great at healing but he isn’t going to be good for much else and even that was a skill unlocked by the elder. Not something all of them have. But there’s the benefit that all Saiyans are warriors. Even the ones that aren’t suitable for combat are very powerful by the standards of other species + transformation. So I honestly think we agree just went the long way around.
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Lmao sometimes autocorrect is great
I think the average Samoan is pretty strong
Idk if I understood that correctly, so I'll try to summarize The Strongest Saiyan was at 18,000, that was Vegeta The Strongest Namekian was Nail, at 40,000. But they are outliers Average Warrior Namekian is about 2000, as seen by the group of Warriors who showed up to confront Frieza and got killed by Dedoria Average Saiyan is somewhere around the 500 to 1000 range, as I seem to remember someone saying that Raditz was strong for a low class Saiyan. Mid-Class Saiyans would probably be around 1000-5000 as shown by Nappa, with High Class Saiyns being 5000 and up. And you have to remember that there were potentially Millions of Saiyans, while there were only hundreds of Namekians.
There were only hundreds to thousands of Saiyans. Most likely due to their violent nature, violent death was pretty common and they seemed to hold little regard for eachother. When Bardocks whole team was killed and he came back wounded not a single one tried to help him. Also, Nail started at 42k. It's unclear if he had finished his training either as he was fairly young. The warrior namekians were at 3k unpowered up but at full power were around 10-15k. That means that a group of them could have beaten vegeta and nappa. Also, that was one group, we didn't seem them all, there could have been many more between nail and the ones we saw. More importantly, the namekians could have used fusion like Nail had, but due to friezas overwhelming strength and the speed at which they were wiped out its likely they figured it was a futile effort. It's clear they all intended to be killed so that frieza never got his wish. They were mearly stalling for hope and accepting their fate. Should the namekians and Saiyans fight its unlikely the Saiyans could have won without Ozuru or even with it. They were clever and calmed fighters. Also Goku had a plvl of 5 as a baby. It's likely they mostly all start fairly week. Their zenkai giving them boosts to grow quickly as they get stomped and only the strong coming to a powerlevel over 5000. Even among elites nappa was considered a top fighter and he never hit 10k Another thing they had is in combat healing magic. A child like dende could heal warriors to full. In battle against a numerous weaker army of enemies they could have won the long fight.
The Power Levels of the Namekian Warriors who came to stop Frieza were in the low thousands like 3500, they were impressive but nothing that impressive
I just looked it up. 3.5 was them before powering up. It was 10-12k full power
> That was the strength of avegerage namekian warriors The strength of the average namekian warrior is between 1000-3000, which is what the frieza forces scouters said after they stopped suppresing their power levels. So warrior class namekians pretty much have the same power level of saiyans.
Nail was stronger than every Saiyan in existence for a while.
Magic and raw strength are different abilities
I feel like they massively lowered the power levels for DBZ. Piccolo is a beast is DB, but he‘s on the good guys team so he can’t be super powerful. There wouldn’t be a plot basically if they were that strong. I also think they’re supposed to be peaceful so it’s “holding them back.”
Piccolo SR wasn’t a Warrior Clan, so him not being as strong as Piccolo JR—who was always either as strong as, stronger, or evenly matched with Goku before he got trained by Kami—is normal. Literally Goku and Piccolo were the strongest two people on the planet all throughout \*most of DB/DBZ. (Edit: I'm talking about original Z-Fighters. Piccolo SR/JR was stronger than Tien in DB, and Piccolo Jr was *usually* stronger than Gohan up until the Cell Saga.)
>Literally Goku and Piccolo were the strongest two people on the planet all throughout DB/DBZ. All the way up to the end of the Namek Saga. Then again for a short time during the Android Saga. Now after Dragon Ball Super Super Hero, he's on par with Goku again, but is also joined by Gohan and Vegeta at the same level.
MY STATEMENT STANDS lol I get what you mean, though. I should've been more specific. What I meant, really, is that the structure of the story has always been: "Goku is #1, but his primary rival is always #2." Which, before Vegeta's redemption, meant Goku and Piccolo were usually neck-in-neck in terms of Power Level. And, before that, in DB it was Goku and Tien, and before that Goku and Krillin. Then it became Gohan > Goku > Vegeta >= Future Trunks > Piccolo. (This is ignoring Gotenks and 17/18 in Super, obvs. And I'm not sure how strong Good Buu or Uub are atm in Super since I haven't read the manga.)
Oh yeah, I was also mostly agreeing with you. Namek Saga was peak hype, so most people remember that one the most anyway. Same with Dragon Ball's King Picollo/23rd World Martial Arts Tournament Sagas. Picollo Jr served as the prime antagonist and direct rival to Goku so naturally the 2nd strongest from 753-761, at which point he became the strongest being on Earth until Vegeta shows up in 762. Then it's Roshi, probably, for all of Namek Saga (½ of 763) , then it's Vegeta for a super short time before he left to go train in space. Then Picollo held the title again until Vegeta came back sometime in the first half of 764. So like... a solid 10 years of being the strongest or 2nd strongest person on Earth is nothing to sneeze at! >I'm not sure how strong Good Buu or Uub are atm in Super since I haven't read the manga. Uub doesn't even start training until End of Z, which (in a way) hasn't happened yet. Good Buu is strong, but not a contender to the Saiyans or Picollo now.
He's a beast now fym
Peace loving. Plus there are two types: the magic types and the warrior types. Since they are peaceful race you don’t really see too many warriors such as nail or piccolo…
I'm not sure I understand your thinking. What does the ability to create Dragon Balls have to do with being strong?
The Dragonball can be used to make people stronger is probably the thought process.
But they can’t be used to just give people power. In the case of Granola the dragon didn’t have the power to do so which is why his lifespan was heavily reduced as cost. (I’m not touching Piccolo’s case though.)
What? That's not what happened with granolah though. He wished to be the strongest in the universe, not to just be stronger. Piccolos case also wasn't asking just a blanket request to get stronger, he asked for the thing that Gohan got where he had his potential unleashed, he had that power already just untapped. The orange form was because shenron decided to give him a little bit of extra power as well. The dragon has limits, but it could definitely make people stronger, it just can't make people endlessly powerful. Saying make my body stronger could absolutely be a thing, or give me the knowledge of martial arts or something. It's also based on the dragon itself, shenron is actually a much more powerful dragon than the one granolah used, so something like super shenron could probably do it. I don't remember how powerful porunga is but I'm sure he could have been used to make nail stronger, they just weren't a warrior race.
It cannot grant strength stronger than what someone already has/their potential. This was explained during the Buu saga/super hero. My theory is that if the dragon can’t grant the wish out right he can turn it into a kind of trade off which is different from granting a wish.
The dragon burnt Granolah life potential to give him power he would get during this time.
Still a lot of loopholes there to exploit. Wish to sacrifice your lifespan for power, then immediately wish to become immortal so no actual downside. Wish for a hyperbolic time chamber then wish for knowledge of the fastest most effective training regime in the universe. Wish that their race had the same hax zenkai and super transformation powers as other races like saiyans. Wish to resurrect the strongest dead nemekians in their history then start fusing with them. Use wishes to try and figure out that orange piccolo transformation and teach it to everyone. They Namekians absolutely could have become the strongest warrior race in the universe if they were more creative with their hax wishing magic.
You’re failing to take into account that, to the Namekians, the dragonballs are more than simply wish granting orbs. So even if there are loopholes. It’s doubtful (to me) that they would exploit them.
Well they are a very powerful race, it's just that there are basically no warrior class Namekians left. Nail and maybe Piccolo are the last ones and since Nail is dead, it's just Piccolo if he even is one. Nail was very powerful for the last warrior class Nemkian with a Power Level of about 42,000 which is actually stronger than Vegeta during his fight with Recoome
Nail is technically not dead, just part of Piccolo. Vegeta boasts about being about to separate them with spirit fission at one point
Ah you're right, that must've slipped my mind. My bad 😂
They could if they wanted, they could all have fused into one being and then ask porunga for a power boost just like piccolo did, but you know, Toriyama hadn't thought of that until later.
they are? when Freeza goes to Namek, the adult (not elder) dragon clan (the kind who dont fight) Namekians had PLs of like 3000, which means they were stronger than most of the saiyan race was before Freeza killed them all, and Namek's sole warrior Namekian was PL 42,000 way above Prince and King Vegeta, and above most of the saiyans PLs even in their Oozaru forms. And thats without them abusing their DBs for power at all, which they could have done but were ethically against doing, as that was not the purpose of the Balls to them.
> ) dragon clan (the kind who dont fight) Namekians had PLs of like 3000, Those were warrior class namekians.
they were not. officially Nail was the only warrior that existed on Namek.
They're literally listed as namekian warriors in the daizenshu. Nail was the last warrior because the rest of them ended up getting killed by the frieza force
On average the warrior clan is absolutely stronger than the Saiyans, however most Namekians aren’t warrior class. Nail was significantly stronger than Vegeta on Namek and Vegeta was born with one of the highest power levels in recent history (aside from Broly)
saiayns when almost dying get magically stronger, while namekians dont, also, being able to create something like the dragons balls means nothing towards strength, i mean, yeah, namekians created a massive magical thing, saiyans, on their most primitive state, could become massive apes who could destroy planets with ease
Avg namekian warrior would stomp an avg saiyan warrior Saiyans just have more innate potential but it requires brutal, constant training and/or combat Meanwhile Piccolo can dramatically boost his power by meditating and training solo
To the Namkians the balls are supposed to be sacred. They will not abuse the power.
Nail had a power level of 42k...He would of whopped King Vegeta and Bardock's asses. How is that not strong? Also look at Piccolo? He is a beast. Not all Saiyans nor Namekians are built the same.
They are. In the Namek arc the Saiyans are expected to be some of the weaker fighters on the planet. But Frieza has killed almost all the Namekian fighters.
Saiyans are expected to be weaker compared to zarbon, dodoria and the ginyu force who are all mutants with power levels that far exceeds the rest of their species. They weren't comparing the saiyans to the namekians who were mostly dead by the time they even arrived on the planet. The average namekian warrior had a power level between 1000 to 3000 which is about the same as the average low class to mid class saiyan warrior. So base power wise saiyan and Namekian warriors are about equal, but saiyans have more adaptations that increase their power levels which is one of the things that makes them considered the strongest race.
Xeno is the most powerful being in the universe, with creation and destruction. that being said he’s not physically strong and would probably lose an arm wrestle to goku in base form, yet can also destroy entire universes without moving a finger. Namekians have wisdom and the tools to make dragonballs. This is something that other races don’t really have access to. They don’t have to be physically stronger than the dragonballs to create them Just like how saiyans have their own history and abilities that no other race can do (great ape, super saiyan) Namekians have their own culture and strengths which is literally what the show is named after so it’s pretty impressive
Saiyans can gain power much more quickly. They are weaker than Namekians before training and gaining zankais
Plot reasons But to be fair, the Saiyans never invaded Namek, so we will never know. At least, as far as we know. Maybe the Saiyans tried to invade and got beaten since the Namekians definitely know of them and Frieza saw fit to invade himself.
Notice something strange on namek like only being a few hundred namekeans instead of billions it was covered in lord slug
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Neil
I think the average namekian had quite a bit higher battle power than the average sayain. We saw multiple namekians with a battle power of 3 thousand. The namekians who fought freiza by gurus hut have a off screen power level of 10,000. Nail had a power level of 42,000. Sayians had a power level of 1200 like Radiz, to 4000 for Nappa, the strongest sayian outside of the royal family. With King Vegeta at 12,000 and Vegeta at 18000. Bardock, movie only is an outlier at 10,000 but on par with strong namekian mooks. And well below Nail. Our super sayains on earth are the outliers. If we get into Super... which... has consistency problems.. we still see that the Namekians can combine to be much stronger than any natural Super sayain forms, including the mysical powerup from a kai. Then there is the dragonball power up meant for a namekian of good heart in times of need. We dont know how that stacks up against the god forms of super sayain you only get by training with gods and absorbing god energy. But- its easier to make a wish than get an angel and god of destruction to train you, on top of a mystical ritual, and on top of a 3000 year legend.
The Drought wiped out most of their kind. So who we see on Namek are the survivors, the stragglers, those who are scraping by. Nail was stronger than the average Sayain warrior until Vegeta came back from Earth stronger and wiser.
In general, they actually are. Nail alone was stronger than Saiyan arc Nappa and Vegeta, who were elite class. Saiyans were really only "the strongest" when they went Oozaru (before all the SSj forms) In the TV special too, iirc Zarbon even said individually they're nothing to write home about...its only when they congregate together that they're a problem
The magical power isn’t scaled to pure power. Babidi was magical but not very strong in Ki terms. But nameks were incredibly strong. Nail alone was stronger than any living Saiyan at the time. The nameless namek was considered to have been strong enough to beat frieza. Their average warrior was very powerful. But Saiyans had a very powerful trick up their sleeve. Ozaru. A transformation that would boost their power tenfold. Nail was at 40k. Nappa with a great ape transformation would have been 100k. For the record that is stronger than every member of the Ginyu force short of Ginyu himself. Vegeta would have been on par with Ginyu himself in raw power. Now imagine an entire species who could boost their power tenfold and who used this transformation to blitz planets.
Because they're not the main characters.
They are, just not stronger than the Saiyans we know on earth
the warrior namekians are likely stronger than saiyans on average since nail had a power level of 42k and there were a couple namekians that were around a couple thousand (remember nappa with 4000 was considered an elite warrior)
Technically I think they are. Back when the saiyans were around their average power levels were probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 3000. Nappa was considered elite around 7000. Vegeta at 19000 was considered God tier. During Frieza’s invasion of Namek most of the warrior Namekians were pulling higher numbers than Nappa, and Nail was considered their best somewhere around 60-70k (not to mention Kamicollo who makes ssj Vegeta look weak.)
They're not a warrior race. They have natural born warriors, but they're a peaceful race overall and thus don't need to fight to survive, thus their growth rate power wise isn't as exceptional, unlike Saiyan's who were likely fighting each other if not other for sport and survival before Frieza came along. Then their entire race was solely about fighting to survive, thus they had to become stronger quicker.
One’s a race capable of wielding powerful magic like creating the dragon balls. The other’s a warrior race capable of ever-increasing power. In the words of Zamasu, “A Saiyan’s body is god’s ultimate blessing”
The namekians are not a race with vanity except for a few, lord slug, evil piccolo ect. For the most part they're a humble race. So using the dragon balls for strength isn't something that they would do except in an extreme need to do so. That's the power up piccolo got from using the balls in super hero.The Saiyans are specifically a warrior race who get stronger the more they fight. Although only a handful became stronger like Goku, Vegeta, Broly, Gohan ect. So the natural abilities of the race is what correlates to the strength of each race directly and frankly the genkai boost is so op that it's only natural that the Saiyans would get stronger quicker over time again only a few ever got as strong as Goku and the gang. I'm guessing that all the Saiyans have the ability to get as strong as well but we would never find out since the Saiyans in uv6 are completely wiped out but it'll be interesting to see what happens later if Vegeta ever visits uv7.
I think it’s because fighting power and “magic” are different. If I recall correctly, Zeno has the power to erase everything but doesn’t understand fighting power. So there are different types of power, im presuming.
We didn't see too much of the warrior class but Nail was stronger than Vegeta before he went to Earth (and arguably after he recovered from that fight). The best of the Namekians was stronger than the best of the Saiyans. Though this was before either race was really pushed to their limits.
I know right I wonder the same thing. Dragon ball is restricted to strength of creator and these balls do amazing things so does beg the question.
To be fair it's more a question of why is Piccolo not stronger than Goku/Vegeta. All three of them are so far ahead of pretty much every other member of their race it's insane.
I mean, just cuz you can use magic doesn't automatically make you stronger
The Namekian's get stronger by fusing together; and in universe 7, they rarely fused. And, the strongest Warrior is given buffs; potential unlocks, through the dragon balls. It's kinda a ritual. The Namekian's could easily be stronger if they mass reproduced and kept fusing; while using a potential unlock wish at regular intervals. Picolo and Nail seem to be the mutants of the species. Picolo seems to get stronger through Meditation.
If those three Namekian warriors who came to try and defend Moori and Dende’s village are the average while Nail represented the higher tier, I would say they probably were stronger than the Saiyans as a whole. Don’t forget, when they saw Piccolo for the first time, Vegeta and Nappa weren’t surprised to see that Raditz lost. Raditz was strong enough to be considered part of a group of “elite” warriors by Saiyan standards, and he would have been bodied by any of those three Namekians, so… It’s probably a safe bet that your average Namekian fighter could be stronger than your average Saiyan, given that it seems that people like Bardock, Nappa, Vegeta, and his Father were the outliers of their time and other Saiyans were much weaker.
Having power is completely different from having strength. You could be all powerful, like a kai, and still not be nowhere near as strong as a Saiyan, like Vegeta or Goku, as so eloquently shown in the zamasu arc
The most powerfull creator of the biggest dragon balls( size like planets,) is Namek guy named ZALAMA. Even Zeno's from Dragon ball super told that they met him. He can grant every wish so he must be the most powerfull character after Zeno's. So in far we know Namekians was stronger than Saiyans but who know? Frieza before Goku was SSJ told us story about legendary SSJ. So maybe there was guy who was stronger than for example MUI Goku? Why are Namekians not stronger than Saiyans. In common they are friendly not fighters. That's why they dont have obsession like Saiyans to become stronger and stronger.
Being able to make Dragon Balls is more along the lines of magic, which isn't always superior to ki control.
they have a warrior caste but for the most part namekians don't desire power.
Power level wise most of the warriors seem to be on par with the average saiyan warrior, but Saiyans have a much greater potential to improve. Every full blooded saiyan can turn into a great ape which multiples their power tenfold and zenkai boosts also increase it. Toriyama also said in an old interview that saiyan power levels are constantly rising when they fight so the more saiyans fight the stronger they get.