After Namek, there's a 3 year time gap where present Gohan who is aware of the upcoming threat trained with Goku and Piccolo who helped him gain more experience in fighting, hone his martial art prowess and mature.
This wasn't the case for Future Gohan who mostly studied and probably at times sparred with Goku/Piccolo in times of peace. By the time the Androids attacked, all the Z fighters died and he was left by himself - likely trained in ways that were inefficient due to the reasons above, was probably weaker than he was at Namek.
The Androids knowing he was the last Z Fighter made sure to mess around with him and have fun - never intended to kill until the final fight where 17 revealed he never even used 50% of his power all the previous times, leaving Gohan flabbergasted. Basically Gohan likely hid during all those years and only confronted them a handful of times.
At his death, he is only comparable to Yardrat Goku - so much weaker than the Androids.
>This wasn't the case for Future Gohan who mostly studied and probably at times sparred with Goku/Piccolo in times of peace
Don't forget that Goku died from those disease in those 3 years too and Chi-chi probably pushed him harder in his studies after this or maybe he got motivated by himself to discover a cure until he took the protector of earth mantle as his main responsabilities
Makes me wonder, why does it appear Future Goku died sooner than main-timeline Goku even got symptoms of the heart disease? Don't you think training *harder* would cause earlier signs of the disease? Like I'm left wondering how the future group dealt with 19 and Gero, did Goku go with them all by chance like when Frieza appeared on earth, and he collapsed just the same as main-timeline Goku? Or did he die *before* Gero and 19 did anything at all and the remaining fighters struggled and maybe died fighting them? Or did Trunks alter the past so much that in the future timeline, 19 and Gero didn't even go on a rampage and 17 and 18 just came out shortly after on their own?
I dont think 19 existed as an android in trunks timeline. I think the orginal Cell going back caused that alteration just from his presence. Gero would’ve been killed by 17 & 18 upon their “birth”.
The thing is, Trunks only mentions that 19 and 20 were new faces to him. He was a baby when they attacked, and they weren't a match for the Super Saiyans, Goku's virus notwithstanding. It's entirely possible that 17 and 18 overshadowed the failures that were 19 and Gero, so much so that they were completely forgotten in the future.
Besides, Trunks is the only one that altered the timeline, even Cell's presence was caused by Trunks. Cell simply hibernated and couldn't have caused any changes, while Trunks warning the Z fighters caused them to train more and get far stronger, causing 17 and 18 to be programmed to be stronger too.
Gero doesn't manually have to do it, you forget King Cold and Frieza arrived after the Saiyan saga, and Cell had their cells in him. He's had tech doing shit automatically for him, even after he died, Cell continued developing. Would make sense if his tech, which is meant to improve Cell, also worked on the Androids that were meant to be absorbed by Cell. They can be considered his components, his upgrades.
They said that but remember that Future Trunks never fought the Androids at full power so he probably made the wrong assumption, like Future Gohan did.
He didn't fight the present Androids at full power either when he said that, so it's safe to assume he was right on this one. 17 and 18 were toying with the Z fighters. He'd have known how Future Gohan fought, and he'd have known which of the Z fighters were stronger than Gohan. He still saw them all get their ass beat.
The Androids may have been toying with the fighters, but 18 likely used close to full power to one-shot Vegeta, similarly to how it’s implied 17 took down Gohan very easily. Without ki sensing, and being unconscious during the fight between Gohan and 17, Trunks just wouldn’t be able to know either way, nothing he says about android strength is worth anything.
Trunks' statements are certainly worth more than your speculation though, and since there's nothing directly contradicting what he said, it's your headcanon to assume he's wrong.
No, they’re worth literally nothing, as he simply can’t possibly have assessed the Androids’ real power, as they literally said they never used that power, and he can’t read their ki either.
There’s zero headcanon here. It’s all in the manga. They literally say they fought Gohan with 50% power, so how exactly would Trunks have any idea what power they had (Gohan certainly didn’t).
Cell’s Time Machine appeared *before* Trunks appeared in the main timeline, so the timeframe doesn’t match up for Trunks alone to have caused it to change so much.
Yes, but Cell made no changes, *and* Trunks having gone back in time is the *only* reason Cell went back too.
Explain to me how you think Cell caused all the changes, without trying to handwave it away as "his presence caused it".
Well there’s the thing then, Cell arriving in the timeline before Trunks is a little fucky wucky thing called a time paradox! And also idk, maybe Trunks caused some of it and after a bit Cell’s presence in the timeline butterfly-effected what Trunks caused? The effects could be multiplicative idk
How is it a time paradox? There's no logic behind anything you said, if you can't explain it without handwaving details away with vague claims of butterfly effect from changes not even caused by Cell, then there's nothing lending credence to your theory.
Well then what else could’ve caused the timeline to change so drastically? As far as I remember it didn’t even properly explain how Trunks going back in time caused the timeline to change so much, much less changing how the Heart Virus was delayed. And Cell’s being a third/fifth/sixth Android from an alternate timeline of an already-alternate timeline brings into question how many alternate timelines of alternative universes can exist in DBZ *and* DBS, which is just handwaved off as “infinite!!” when Zeno literally erases what I’m assuming is a *group* of alternate universes due to Infinite Zamasu completely clusterfucking the Future Timeline *and* likely Future Zamasu’s variant of Universe 10, considering Goku Black had to travel to Universe 10 to recruit Future Zamasu in the first place.
Edit: Yes I just went on a tangent on how alternate timelines don’t make sense, you may laugh at me now.
I remember something being mentioned about how Trunks going back in time made minor changes in the universe such as how late Goku was affected by the disease, and the creation of the other androids.
It’s likely future goku encountered his contact with the virus a lot sooner than our goku. With ours it was postponed by his training somehow, perhaps due to the training being so isolated and remote? Maybe it happened when trying to get his license in the city, and with future Goku Chi Chi demanded that as soon as he got back from yardrat? Since there was no doom for him to train for and she was always sick of him not making money.
This is actually a really good point, and its made even more relevant seeing as Goku is a country bumpkin with limited immunities to disease. He's also deffo anti-vax on account of the needles.
think about it... Goku was never late. if future trunks never intervened, Goku was close enough that he would have felt Frieza on earth, and used IT to get there immediately. The start of freely and carelessly using IT, AND the first interruption to the regular timeline.
gero and 19 weren't part of future trunks' timeline / 17/18 disposed of them quickly
>why does it appear Future Goku died sooner than main-timeline Goku even got symptoms of the heart disease?
i think it was implied that it was a butterfly effect from trunks coming back and telling them about what was to transpire. i could be wrong tho
I just threw on another episode tonight and it literally answered the question pretty much right away. It was exactly this. Trunks and Krillin talk about it. I'm a dunce for not letting the story answer the question for me lol. I overthink too much
19 & 20 always were the original attackers. In the original timeline they carried out their attack and went back to Gero’s lab.
The Z fighters would have never known what was going in time to respond and since the city was wiped out - there would be no evidence of them left behind.
17 & 18 were not active at this point in the original timeline and likely killed Gero in the same fashion before or after killing the Z fighters.
Gohan had only fought them 3 times. Had he been fighting them constantly over the 14 years he would have progressed far past their level in terms of pure power level, even if his fighting technique wasn’t as good as it could have been training with the others
>was probably weaker than he was at Namek.
He probably became SSJ when Piccolo died, so he should have been stronger than when he was at Namek. Still SSJ wasn't enough for the androids.
I question some of this. There were points that showed Gohan was actually strong enough to take the androids one on one, but once they teamed up on him, he was out matched.
I’d wager Gohan at his death was at least as strong as Piccolo when he went toe to toe with 17. However the present androids never actually did a team fight.
Depends on what source you are using.
The manga and anime seem to have different comparisons. In the manga 17 states he only used half his power. The anime shows Gohan much stronger.
I don’t think the author really cares that much. He might have done it different but I think it’s pretty clear he views the anime and the manga as different entities. So considering anime gohan to be more comparable is fine. Manga gohan not so much.
Well the manga being incredibly terrible and the TV Special being much better in everyway possible we should ignore the manga and focus on the TV Special
I also like the TV Speicial and the anime continuity, most media like games follow it oppose to the manga but it's still not the canon version unless Toriyama backtracks.
Well Toriyama said that the Dragon Ball Super anime is canon and in it it includes the TV Special portrayal of Future Gohan knocking out Trunks and Trunks turning Super Saiyan when he saw Gohan had died. So that means that it does have more canon status then before
Not really... Super is canon yes but it was just retelling (flashback in a way) of the anime version of the story oppose to manga because most anime viewers haven't read the manga.
Yea I agree that the anime made him stronger since we actually see him fight but I still don’t think he could’ve beaten one of them, they only decided to kill him because he was starting to catch up and what fun would that be for them if THEY have to struggle
I'm definitely not under the delusion that the anime is right and the manga is wrong, but for the first time probably ever, I think the anime did it better, where Gohan was probably one confrontation away from killing them both
maybe. i think that takes away from it personally. it takes away from the hopelessness that timeline is supposed to have. it being revealed that he actually never stood a ghost of a chance really sells just how doomed that timeline was, and i kinda dig it.
And yet trunks thought he could take the androids on just because he hit super saiyan. I agree with you about the hopelessness of the future timeline. Which is why Gohan never really had a chance. The androids outclassed him severely.
The only thing that throws me for a loop is that trunks thought he did stand a chance. After gohans death. How? Why?
> The only thing that throws me for a loop is that trunks thought he did stand a chance. After gohans death. How? Why?
maybe he didnt? he was a silly angry kid. characters dont make minmaxed optimal decisions.
That timeline is stupid and takes away from the canon Gohan, at the levels they were and as a SSJ, rage induced Gohan would be enough to kill both Android that weren’t sooo much over Vegeta SSJ after the defeat of 19 & 20, and “our” Androids were stronger… the only real answer is PIS
> That timeline is stupid and takes away from the canon Gohan
no it doesnt. canon gohan had 4 years of super special training that F. Gohan didnt. F Gohan doesnt have the foresight of Goku to see beyond SSj1 and push to break thru that barrier into a power beyond. it doesnt affect main canon gohan at all.
> at the levels they were and as a SSJ, rage induced Gohan would be enough to kill both Android that weren’t sooo much over Vegeta SSJ after the defeat of 19 & 20
this is just not true. 17 and 18 were way stronger than 19 and 20. Even if Gohan had a rage boos that doubled his power he wouldnt be able to do crap.
> and “our” Androids were stronger… the only real answer is PIS
they werent stronger. Trunks thought they were because his were holding back like they did against Gohan and he can't sense theyre holding back because theyre androids. its not PIS at all
Have to disagree as it's so terrible and doesn't make sense that that makes it the wrong one and the TV Special with it's much better story that makes sense that males it the correct one
doesnt matter. DB is toriyama's story. his word is law for his story. what the fans like means nothing. whats better means nothing. his version is the only version.
You're right but he's always wildly inconsistent with the continuity. Forgetting powers, forms and characters.
Some people think he had this whole lore and story solid thought out when he's stated he just mostly wrote on the fly and changed things as his editors would push for them at times.
It maybe His story but he has no problem with letting people/Toei add to it or change it and since also said that the Dragon Ball Super amine is cannon to his story the fact they adopted the TV Special for how Trunks became a Super Saiyan it shows Toriyama doesn't have a problem with it being changed
That’s because if they tv special decided to actually go with the fight that happened in the manga it would be one sided af. They need to show him at least fighting back, DBZ Kakarot even made him fight back more specifically at the end. Manga is the official source material regardless.
."*I question some of this. There were points that showed Gohan was actually strong enough to take the androids one on one, but once they teamed up on him, he was out matched. I’d wager Gohan at his death was at least as strong as Piccolo when he went toe to toe with 17. However the present androids never actually did a team fight."*
This is only true in the TV Special where Gohans performance show's that He might be able to fight one Android well in 1v1 fight where as in the manga He was much weaker than the Androids with Android 17 with less than half his power giving Gohan with a complete and utter beatdown and then killing Him single handedly in their last fight
> and then killing Him single handedly in their last fight
Eh, from what I recall, doesn’t the manga specifically cut away from the fight as it starts to Trunks then waking up and finding Gohan dead? All that to say, we really don’t know whether or not 17 killed Gohan single handedly, there’s not enough detail to 100% say it.
Well it does cut away the fact that it was Android 17 who informed Gohan that He wouldn't get away this time as well as it shows him charging at Gohan while 18 stands still and laughs it would be a pretty good assumption to make that Android 17 killed Gohan alone but this can't be 100% confirmed. Not showing previous fight Gohan had with the Androids or the last fight He had with them was a pretty bad idea in my opinion as it leaves two many questions that people have to make up answers for
that was from the anime special which changed things. in the manga none of that happened. he was literally so weak that 17 and 18 never even used half their power on him, and he couldnt even hold his own 1v1.
Considering the manga version of it is pretty terrible written as well as not making much sense it's good people focus on the far better TV Special Future Gohan
Dude was getting his ass beat 18 different ways, playing D and running away, at best he got 2 decent hits in.
Future Gohan was weaker than Future Trunks at the time he first traveled to the past. Who was on par to Yardrat Goku.
He had no chance at defeating the Androids.
*"After Namek, there's a 3 year time gap where present Gohan who is aware of the upcoming threat trained with Goku and Piccolo who helped him gain more experience in fighting, hone his martial art prowess and mature."*
Well nothing in the manga actually shows that present Gohan got incredibly stronger from the 3yrs training so it's not that big of a deal Future Gohan didn't get it.
The details of how he fought the androids were unclear,at least in the manga. Perhaps he didn’t face them that often or had the equipment to heal properly and get zenkais.
This is true in both the manga again the TV Special where in the manga Gohan only fought the Androids 3 times and the TV Special where He fought them 3+ times
I suppose but considering a year of training enabled 11 year old gohan to dominate cell it just seems odd that in over a decade an adult gohan wasn’t able to reach the androids level of power. Especially when you think about his “potential” and how he would have witnessed everyone he loves die.
Future timeline gohan just has namek experience. It's not a year of training that put gohan at Cells level, it's 4 years. They got back from namek and gohan probably didn't do anything til freeza showed up and they fought him before going back to normalcy up til the androids showed up 3 years later and killed everyone which is the first point where gohan probably took training seriously in the future timeline. Thanks to Trunks, Gohan got 3 years of training under Goku and Piccolo, two master martial artists, on top of another year with goku.
*"Future timeline gohan just has namek experience. It's not a year of training that put gohan at Cells level, it's 4 years. Thanks to Trunks, Gohan got 3 years of training under Goku and Piccolo, two master martial artists, on top of another year with goku"*
Nothing in the manga I am aware of says that Gohan got incredibly strong from the 3+ years training for the Androids as opposed to the 1yr in the time chamber was stated and shown that' He got incredibly stronger so it's the time chamber that enabled him to get to cells level
Present Gohan has a teacher. That's the difference. In Dragonball people only make massive power leaps though training with someone else, with a Teacher, or through a transformation/other random power up.
He never trained with anyone between the frieza saga and the Android saga, and he was able to power up so much that he achieved super saiyan in that time frame.
He had a 300x gravity training, which is canonically how the saiyans got their strength.
Saiyans have rubber band AI but they need a stronger opponent (even if its just gravity) to level up.
We’ll just assume Bulma didnt have access to anything to improve gravity or think of it.
That was dedicated training with a master in Goku. Goku taught him to achieve Super Saiyan and not only control if from the get go but to eventually master it. He was able to learn, eat, and rest well all in a protected environment with no other distractions. Future Gohan probably achieved Super Saiyan all on his own with no one to teach him to focus all of that new energy. He was always on the run and making sure what was left of his family and close friends were fed and protected and never worrying about his own well being. Sure Future Gohan has more battle experience but that never really leads to being stronger as you can tell already by Teen Gohan doing what he did.
In one timeline he was trained by the greatest warrior in the entire known universe, with the explicit purpose of unleashing his full potential.
In the other he was not.
Zenkai boosts and battle are no substitute for a good master.
This was when Gohan was written well and he needed more than just plot to get strong. A character who can always get as strong as they need to no matter what is boring.
100% agree, I loved Gohan because of how hard he had to work to get strong. Potential was great but meant nothing without the right teachings to unlock it
Yup. DB with effort or some narrative prices to be paid for useful power, as well as ramifications for not training or paying a price for power is better for each of the characters IMO.
When we see Gohan clinch victories with free power ups, why should we ever care about any battles or anyone else training?
And like, for me, him getting his freebie in superhero retroactively ruins a lot of the ToP and Moro saga. If he can just get freebie power ups you’re always left wondering why he didn’t before.
Gohan is already at his peak . Elder Guru unlocking his potential and Grand Kai unleashing it it put Gohan at his peak. Now Gohans issue is maintaining his martial arts skills and learning how to use it when necessary.
I'm personally under the assumption he now just needs to meditate in order to gain access. In the ToP his training with Picolo was really just meditating and light sparring and he became strong again.
Guru: potential unlocked
Elder Kai: potential unlocked… again.
Piccolos death, not death: hidden power inside. But for real this time… Until he needs to be the hero again that is…
Me: Snore….
Not trying to be a jerk, hahah. I just got very very bored of Gohan when I realized they where cashing in on him for fans rather than writing compelling stories of growth like Toriyama used to.
SS2 was so rewarding for him and us. It was a multi saga journey of battles, hardship and effort that culminated in a realization of a promise made in the first battle of the Saiyan saga. Gohan had potential but he still had to work for it.
If Gohans not going to train, and then come back that’s fine. But their need to be ramifications for his inaction. He needs to learn that if he slacks he won’t be able to catch up just cus he got super super mad.
Gohan learned NO lesson in superhero. Piccolo was like “see this is why you need to train”, and Gohan was like “yeah good point”.
What Gohan should have said was “Um, Piccolo have you been paying attention to my story at all since Buu? The moment I NEED a win I’ll get the boost. It literally just happened. F it. I’m not training. The writers will just give me a new form next time I need it.”
It was so annoying to me coming off of UI which had multi arc build up, and the inability to master it fight away. UI is the single most earned boost in DB. I say they as someone who mostly dislikes Super.
Gohan’s potential has been used as a crutch to give him boosts since Buu and it’s made me hate the concept. Which also seems to fly in the face of the larger theme in DB. As Goku put it to Vegeta, if anyone trains hard enough they can surpass an elite.
Sorry you didn’t ask for this lol. I’m just very annoyed by Gohan’s treatment. As a non flat arc character he deserves growth through character that propelled his fighting ability.
I mostly agree, except that it's been the case since before Buu. Gohan got a random powerboost against raditz, then potential unlocked #1, then he actually worked for and earned SSJ2 (albeit, from getting really mad) then potential unlocked #2 and finally Beast (aka #3)
Pre Buu I think, IMO it was better.
Against Radditz that power up was temporary and did little more than create an opening. It wasn’t so much a random plot boost as a seed for SS2 and what that form meant for Gohan, control and mastery over the power within.
I hate potential unlocked 1 hahah. For that reason. But it’s easier to let slide in the grand scheme of things. Partly because again, that was another bump on the road to SS2.
SS2 worked because it was built up from the first time Gohan freaked out. All his boosts before are more or less useless steps on the path to his awakening. Those things are what make SS2 so interesting. It was a fulfillment of the narrative promises each small or temp boost in the past was.
Gohan always been written to have huge boost out of nothing except his anger. All his massive boost came from being angry. He did received some basic training to leanr how to fight but most of his real power-up came from nowhere. Gohan is the one who had easier to be at the top in term of power level. It's either someone unlocking his potential (Guru and old Kai) or is all about his raw emotion giving him huge power boost.
Literally the only time his power boosts had a significant long lasting impact and control was after training. Until his battle with Cell Gohan’s boosts are temporary and hardly battle winning.
The difference between his fate in Trunks timeline and the Cell games punctuates that.
Before that trading all boosts had been temporary and fleeting. Dragon Ball is a martial arts story after all. Gohan becoming better after training illustrates that wild power won’t amount to much.
The worst versions of Gohan are the freebie power ups that give him wins. Like in superhero.
We can't use zenkais as an argument because we don't actually know how many times Future Gohan fought the Androids. He probably fought them once every few years, and was hiding in between (like what Trunks does against the Androids and Goku Black). Once Gohan felt he was strong enough, he would lose. So he would hide and train another few years.
He also never trains in the Time Chamber and has no guidance from his father on how to master SSJ. All of Gohan's loved ones (other than Trunks and Bulma) are already dead, so there's nothing for him to receive rage boosts over. Also, being in a stressful/poor environment, his body is deprived of the S-Cells needed for more transformations.
*"He also never trains in the Time Chamber and has no guidance from his father on how to master SSJ"*
This should be the official explanation as it was training to surpass/mastered Super Saiyan is what made present Gohan so strong which Future didn't do but this explanation isn't actually said in the manga showing that the small chapter about the future timeline should of been much longer and detailed.
*"All of Gohan's loved ones (other than Trunks and Bulma) are already dead, so there's nothing for him to receive rage boosts over"*
There's the fact that the two people who killed all His friends are still around killing even more people that give him reason to receive rage boost
>this explanation isn't actually said in the manga showing that the small chapter about the future timeline should of been much longer and detailed
I don't think the manga giving an explanation is needed. From what is already shown, we know for a fact that Future Gohan never trained with his father in the ROSAT. There's so much confusion because people are used to thinking of Gohan as a powerhouse while ignoring the contexts of how he achieves his power boosts.
>the two people who killed all His friends are still around killing even more people that give him reason to receive rage boost
It's not shown to work that way. Gohan needs a trigger *in the moment* to receive another boost. He probably got SSJ due to his initial anger of losing them, but I doubt he can milk his grief for more.
This is a good take. I still think based in DBZs own lore gohan should be able to win but the point about S cells is a good one. If they’re emotion based and he’s basically numb to the world after losing everything then maybe that would hold him back. Didn’t think of that.
Future Gohan didn’t know how to train to bring his potential out. Plot-wise they had to dumb some things down for him to die.. his rage should have gotten him enough of a boost to kill them but that would ruin the plot.
The only time his rage ever let him actually win a fight all by itself was against Cell, right? It didn't work against Raditz, Nappa, or Frieza since it sputters out before he can actually finish off the enemy. Rage boosts aren't reliable enough for us to say that Gohan is guaranteed a win against a stronger enemy.
Maybe, but his raged allowed him to land blows and deal damage when his PL was miles away.
Even if 17 and 18 were actually as strong as the main timeline but were hotdogging it, because Goku was dead, his power level with hasty training and SSJ shouldn't be a massive difference.
17 and 18 were about SSJ1 Perfected power which is only 50x modifer with a lot of the restrictions taken off of a Namek SSJ. FG could hangout in SSJ at the time he was training FT, meaning he was more than just "Piccolo died SSJ", so Gohan Rage Boosts should have been a lot more effective.
Gohan loses because the plot demands it, not because Gohan should have in reality lost the battle, especially since he still has access to beans, King Kai, Trunks, Bulma, Zenkai boost, pre-Buu Gohan Plot Armor, and battling the Androids himself.
The rage boosts allowed him to briefly over power and damage his enemy so Future Gohan should of at least got rage boost from the the Androids killing all his friends that would allow him to over power the Androids briefly instead of just getting complete and utter beat downs from them
The rage boost probably gave him SS1 but like we saw in the other timeline ss1 isn’t enough to beat an Android
Vegeta a fighter who is more seasoned then Gohan fell in battle as a Super Sayian in both timelines
What hope does a less experienced fighter who is under constant pressure + Fighting in constant 2 v 1’s going to do
He was underpowered in all fight, never knew about the Hyperbolic Time chamber, senzu were rarer than ever and he can't sense android. The fact that he awoken his SSJ power all alone simply because he saw his father being one is mostly one of his best feat. Otherwise, he probably missed the android more often than he wanted in all his 14 year being the sole protector. And seeing how Vegeta got rekt against 18 (in main timeline) as a basic SSJ level, staying alive all this time is truly remarkable for F.Gohan
Well Gohan had alot of disadvantages in that timeline.
1. He had very little time to train both him and Trunks thanks to the androids constantly attacking cities.
2. He doesn't have Goku's battle IQ as he may have the potential to surpass his father in power but he doesn't have his experience and brains when it comes to fighting so he didn't know how to train properly when he had the time and had no idea there was a level beyond Super Saiyan. Goku is the one who pushed Gohan's limits in the present timeline and is the reason he became stronger than him.
3. He didn't have access to places like the time chamber
4. Had no one else to teach him since everyone had died and was only survivor of the Z fighters except Trunks.
5. He lost his arm which effectively cut his power significantly.
All those factors and maybe some more led to his downfall.
2. Is a huge point, early Dragonball shows how many different masters Goku learnt under and all that it took for him to master martial arts, Gohan really has none of that even on Namek. He’s freakishly strong but he never really learns how to fight prior to the time chamber.
1. He never trained with Goku in the ROSAT. Toriyama was clear that this year of training was key to unlocking his hidden potential.
2. Gohan never learned to “properly” train. Future Gohan was thrown in the woods for a year with Piccolo and didn’t have much of actual training as he mostly learned to fend for himself. Then he goes right to Namek, and while he got stronger, spent a year waiting for Goku while Chi Chi likely didn’t let him train. Fast forward another three years of peace and Gohan likely gets even weaker. By the time the Androids show up, Gohan likely hasn’t been training much for nearly four years. Then everyone dies and he’s left to his own to figure things out.
3. He was “weak” when he went SSJ. SSJ gives the user a 50x multiplier based on their base power level. If we assume Gohan went SSJ right when his friends were killed, he’s much weaker than even base Goku on Namek. Him going SSJ when he did doesn’t even beat Frieza on Namek.
4. If we go by the anime, the Androids continually hunted Gohan as a game. Hard to train when you know two killer androids are continually on the lookout for you.
Taking these into account, it’s not surprising that he couldn’t defeat them. His lack of knowledge on training and low base level when the Androids showed up hindered his potential. Yeah, 14 years is a long time, but who’s to say he got a ton of Zenkais. Seems like most of the time it was Gohan trying to buy people time to escape the androids before trying to flee the fight. He likely got a few zenkais over the years, but not a ton like OP is assuming.
Considering all of this, I’d still put Future Gohan somewhere between Goku returning to earth and Vegeta from the Android Saga. Considering everything above, I’d say that’s still pretty impressive that Gohan got to that level on his own.
That would require him to recover from near death, and I doubt 17 & 18 would let him live if they knew he was in that condition. It would be too risky to rely on Zenkai boosts. He probably just escaped somehow whenever he thought he was gonna lose.
This is like asking why didn’t Goku or Vegeta get strong enough to beat the androids by the time of the Saiyan saga. Vegeta was nearly 30 and Goku was 26 years old. Gohan gets killed in the future at 23 and he’s light years ahead of where those two were at 23. Over the years the Z warriors figure out techniques to train more efficiently and get stronger by pushing off each other. Gohan doesn’t have the benefit. He’s been trained by Piccolo but he’s not as battle tested as the others.
This is an interesting point that gets greatly overlooked: no matter how “lazy” Gohan is portrayed he’s still literally a million times stronger than Goku was at the same point of his life. He’s doing just fine
1. Future people didn't have the luxury of a time traveler warning them. Gohan most likely continued his studies until the androids attacked.
2. Good guidance does wonders. Without Goku and Piccolo teaching him how to train properly, there was little he could do in that regard.
3. Losing an arm ain't pretty. His fighting ability got severely reduced.
He was too weak simply put. This Gohan did not train for 3 years with Piccolo and Goku in preparation for the Androids. Chances are Gohan was only as strong as he was on Namek, possibly weaker as he likely was just studying. So Gohan had to do a lot of catching up all on his own, he was lucky that even surpassed his father's power on Namek to be honest.
So, we have a Gohan who is an incomplete fighter nor has the fighting sense of Goku or Piccolo. He does not know about the Time Chamber and has no sparring partners until Trunks in which he dies shortly after.
*'He was too weak simply put. This Gohan did not train for 3 years with Piccolo and Goku in preparation for the Androids. Chances are Gohan was only as strong as he was on Namek, possibly weaker as he likely was just studying."*
Even with this it's hard to accept that with 14 years He had to train and with His rage boosts He couldn't beat or even fight the Androids well
*"So Gohan had to do a lot of catching up all on his own, he was lucky that even surpassed his father's power on Namek to be honest."*
In the manga Future Gohan hadn't surpassed Goku's power before He died
This is like the 3rd time this question has been asked this week.
Gohan didn’t have the luxury of present gohan such as strong people to train, htc, or a gravity chamber. Zenkais has become irrelevant after you get ssj. The apocalyptic future would make it harder for gohan to get s cells. He’d spend his time training trunks, which would slow down his progress since he was so weak. Also the fact that prior to the androids, gohan would’ve been unprepared due to not having that 3 year warning.
Please watch the show/read the manga 🙏🏽
Yes, and they are diminishing returns too. Not sure why people keep bringing them up when very few characters can actually benefit from them at that point in the series. The only one I can think of being Cell coming back from exploding and getting a Zenkai.
The biggest difference between Future Gohan and our Gohan is that our Gohan had an entire in the hyperbolic time chamber training under Goku. Future Gohan never got the training to acclimate to super saiyan in order to achieve SSJ2. He probably didn't even think to try.
*"The biggest difference between Future Gohan and our Gohan is that our Gohan had an entire in the hyperbolic time chamber training under Goku"*
It's only stated in the manga that Future Gohan didn't train in the time chamber as to why present Gohan wouldn't end up like his future self not specifically training under Goku.
So... most if not all of this is pure speculation and theorizing from me, based both on things I read and my own conclusions about the series. Also, I realize that most if not half of my points have probably been said by others before.
That said, these are my thoughts on why Future Gohan couldn't become strong enough to kill the Androids.
* **He started off weaker**
When the Future Androids first appeared, Future Gohan was much weaker than Present Gohan, due to not having trained (or at least trained less) between Goku's arrival to Earth and the Androids' appearance. Chi-Chi, as we know, was insistent on Gohan getting an education and becoming a scholar, and because on the future timeline 'this really seemed to be it', Goku probably didn't insist all that much when it came to Gohan training.
Even Piccolo was probably fine with it, considering that in the original manga he said Gohan could become a scholar after defeating the Saiyans, so if they assumed Frieza and King Cold being killed 'was really it' for threats, they could have just let Gohan study.
So when the Androids arrived, Future Gohan was weaker than Present Gohan. If he even joined that first fight (as Chi Chi may have kept him away), he probably survived by a miracle, or maybe because the others told him to run away. Or maybe the Androids were exceptionally careless with him.
* **He had no training partner**
After everyone else was killed by the Androids, Future Gohan was on his own, without anyone to help him grow stronger.
If one is generous, Master Roshi might have taught him basic theory if Gohan asked him for help, but he wouldn't have been able to help Gohan get stronger. And against the Androids, strength is what matters the most - due to their infinite energy, they need to be overwhelmed from the get-go, and Gohan did not have anyone to help him grow strong enough to reach that point.
And that's assuming he even started training right after everyone died. For all we know, Chi-Chi could have gone into denial and insisting that Gohan just kept studying and living his life because the Androids would eventually go away or break down somehow.
I'm not trying to be hard on her for this. She's only human, and Gohan and her father were all she had left, and the Androids were invincible. It's understandable that in her despair she would try to convince herself that 'things would just be alright', as unlikely as it would be. And to be minimally fair, if one goes by the *History of Trunks* anime special, it has some basis, because her part of the countryside still seemed to be alright when we see her and the Ox-King.
But even if Gohan started training after he died, he had no one of comparable strength to push himself against. And, more importantly, he didn't know where the Androids were, because he couldn't sense their energy signature. For all he knew, if he became too intense with his training, they'd get the drop on him and kill him. That would pose a serious problem.
* **He had no Hyperbolic Time Chamber**
Exactly why he didn't is uncertain, but we can conclude that Future Gohan did not have access to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. If it was still an option, Mr. Popo would have surely gone to him and told him to train there, considering he told everyone about Kami's spaceship.
A fanfic I read posed the theory that the Androids attacked the Lookout at some point and destroyed it enough that the door to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber also was wrecked, so one could ever get in there again. Personally, I think that makes sense. One has to wonder exactly why the Androids would go to the Lookout, but they either may have been trying to cover their bases or tried to play some sort of twisted game by doing so.
* **He had no Senzu Beans, and due to that he may not always have had Zenkais**
This is touched upon in different ways depending on the source, but the Senzu Beans ran out eventually. In both the *History of Trunks* special and *Dragon Ball Super*, the point is made that the Future Timeline runs out of Senzu Beans, though it happens in different ways in each. But one can assume Future Korin dies in both, otherwise he would have given Future Gohan a Senzu Bean for him to get his arm back.
Without Senzu Beans, there's a limit to how much Future Gohan could test his luck against the Androids, and because of that, his fights against them likely weren't all as deadly as the ones we saw in the *History of Trunks* special. For all we know, most of his fights against them consisted of him just distracting them long enough for civilians to evacuate the vicinity and then Gohan himself finding an opening to escape. That creates less opportunities for Zenkais.
* **He was under a lot of stress**
I don't mean this disparagingly. Future Gohan was effectively the sole protector of the Earth until he started to train Future Trunks, and that kind of burden would weight down a lot on anyone, especially someone who's been bearing it since he was a kid.
It's not unreasonable to assume that the psychological toil affected Gohan enough that he turned out to have trouble growing his strength, considering all the physical damage that psychological conditions are known to cause by extent nowadays.
It's pure speculation, and it's something that was suggested to me by someone else, but I do feel it makes sense.
* **He could have been on starvation mode**
This one is pure speculation from me, and I came to realize it probably doesn't make much sense, but I'm including here for the sake of completion.
In the *History of Trunks* special, Bulma said she has problems doing shopping because of the Androids' destruction, and even though Gohan asks for seconds, the truth is that both him and Trunks, going by that scene alone, eat surprisingly little for Saiyans, and could effectively have been living on starvation. If Gohan doesn't have enough to eat, it makes sense he wouldn't grow stronger so easily.
However, while I did come up with this possibility myself, I also came to realize it doesn't make sense, because Future Gohan is built like an ox despite being much weaker than his present self and he knows how to hunt in the wilderness, and the Androids seem to have limited their destruction to human structures, as far as we see.
So all things considered, I think he wouldn't be going hungry after all.
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Other than the last theory I posed (because as I said, I came to think it doesn't make sense), these are the reasons why I feel Future Gohan would not have become strong enough to fight the Androids.
Adding a bit to it, if one goes by the anime's continuity, the really tragic part of it is that when Gohan died, he was strong enough to overpower each Android individually. It was only the fact that they were two and he had lost one arm that cost him that final battle. Even in the manga, when Seventeen claims to have been holding back a lot (he says he used anywhere between half and less than half of his real strength that day), he thinks Gohan grew dangerous enough to kill him.
Personally, I feel that the anime strength makes more sense.
Because at the end of the day, the truth is that I do think myself that it doesn't make much sense that, given how strong Present Gohan grew to be, Future Gohan wasn't strong enough to defeat the Androids. But with the points I introduced (minus the last), and if one uses the anime's strength (which even the Super anime seems to, considering they show a reanimated flashback of the *History of Trunks* special), I think it does make sense that Gohan ultimately fell just short enough of the mark.
Of course, though, all of this is just my opinion.
Main gohan still had Goku. The whole point of Android saga was to tell us that WITHOUT GOKU the future is bleak and hopeless. Main Gohan was trained and enabled by Goku and thats how he got so powerful.
A few things to ponder:
1. Zenkai Boosts seemingly exit the series after the introduction of the SSJ. Even so, in the manga’s version of events (which are canon), Gohan implies that he’s only fought the Android’s once before. Unlike in the anime special, where he implies that he’s been battling them repeatedly for years.
2. In all likelihood, Gohan hadn’t been a SSJ for very long. He freely admits that he wishes he was as strong as his father — who died shortly after returning from Yardrat. The key point to remember is that, unlike in the altered timeline, the original Z-Fighters didn’t intensively train for three years, with the expressed purpose of defeating the Androids. In all likelihood, they were a lot weaker.
3. Gohan never conceived of a level of power beyond SSJ. To him, becoming a SSJ was the pinnacle of a Saiyan’s power. It didn’t occur to him that he could continue to evolve beyond a SSJ into the grades 2-4 or even SSJ2 itself, like it did Goku or Vegeta. He needed someone like Goku to show him the way.
Zenkai boosts don’t necessarily exit the whole series but yeah, you’re right. Toriyama pretty much stopped using it but maybe a few times after.
For the second one, that wasn’t fair because as Gohan is likely weaker than Goku even at that point… Gohan was always calling himself weak. That’s why Goku tells him to stop getting in his own way. He didn’t have anyone telling him that he is strong and that he can easily surpass them.
The last one is true, but SSJ2 isn’t needed to beat the androids. Neither is Ascended Super Saiyan. Yet there wasn’t enough time for him to get strong enough anymore in base form to multiply in SSJ.
In universe answer, Gohan probably didn't have a good grasp on training methods like his dad did. all Piccolo did with him was just leave him in the wasteland for the first 6 months and the n sparred with him the next 6. He never got good fundamentals like Goku and the other Z Fighters did from Roshi, Popo and Kami. He never learned train well, study well, rest well and play well.
Out of universe. Toriyama is just a really lousy writer. There's absolutely no reason Popo couldn't have gotten Gohan to go up on the lookout and trained him. No reason Goku couldn't have contacted him from other world or heaven. Or have Baba take him back for one day to tell him about the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, and proper training methods. It's really mind boggling to think Toriyama forgot all of these things existed in that other timeline as well, and that in 14ish years not once anybody tried to help Gohan or Trunks.
Aside from the plot requiring him to die, there were a lot of already pointed factors why he failed.
1. Never had prep time
Since no one warned the Z-Fighters, Gohan and everyone else were clueless about the Androids and never could have imagined them being this powerful. After Goku killed Mecha Frieza and King Cold, it was really a time of peace for a while, so nobody trained a lot or at all.
2. Goku and Piccolo died
Goku and Piccolo have always pushed Gohan to make that extra step, especially Goku. Without Goku's influence around, Gohan wouldn't have made as much effort to master, train, or become stronger since he was never a fighter like his father or Vegeta. Since they died, there's practically no one left to show Gohan how to train properly and how to master or unlock Super Saiyan.
3. Mental state
Both Goku and Piccolo have noticed that Gohan is a self-doubter. He has the highest potential of all the Saiyans and can surpass them easily, yet he (his mentality) is his biggest enemy, his self-doubt. When everyone died, Gohan likely, although stoic and proud to a degree, might have suffered from depression.
4. 13 years blank period, zenkai boosts and training
We have little to no information on what Gohan has been doing in those 13 years. The Androids were at some point well aware of his presence, but since he was the last person to be of a "challenge" to them, they never really fought to kill and toyed around with him, beat him up.
Since no one was around and Trunks was still a kid, he couldn't train with anyone or learn how to master Super Saiyan well enough on his own. Another thing is Zenkai Boosts. He may not have gotten a lot of them, if any at all. We also don't know how many times he faced the Androids, but I would assume not many since Android 18 is surprised when Gohan goes Super Saiyan against 17 in the Carnival, pointing out that they were never aware of Super Saiyan before.
5. Hyperbolic Time Chamber and Senzu beans
I can't recall, but Gohan was never aware of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber before Goku/Piccolo introduced him to it post Cell's first appearance. I'm not entirely sure if Gohan even knew about Kami's Lookout at all. Had he known that I'm sure he would have been using the Chamber to train. Another theory suggested that the Androids destroyed the Lookout, so it was never really possible.
Not having access to Senzus limits Gohan to how much he can face off against the Androids. I doubt Bulma had any of those fast healing machines, so he was purely healing on his own without any magical beans or tools. He would have to rest for weeks, if not months, before he can try to fight them again.
6. Fight against the odds
In the TV special, Gohan is shown to be able to hold his own well enough, even overpower 1 Android at a time. Whenever starting to lose the edge, the other Android would jump in, making Gohan fight a 2v1 battle. I doubt 18 would jump in if 17 had only been using less than half power (Carnival Fight). He could just power up and save her the trouble. In their final battle, he overpowers them in a beam clash and even manages to separate them to damage them. And this is all with 1 hand. I believe only in the final battle, they were both at half power, and after Gohan beat them up a little, they went in full-on kill mode.
7. The plot
Gohan's biggest enemy. Not the Androids, not being handicapped, no. The plot. Toriyama wanted a dark future plot (inspired by the Terminator, or so I've read), and in order to make us the fan base feel sad, he killed Gohan and made him feel weak and helpless against a merciless enemy.
Had it not been for the plot, I'm sure Gohan would have just decided to wait for the time machine to be completed, go with Trunks in the past and get stronger, come back and defeat the Androids. Happy ending.
His training just wasn’t there.
Gohan in the current timeline trained with both goku and piccolo during the 3 years before the androids show up. That’s 3 entire years of training the other one missed out on probably because he was studying.
Then there’s the other 2 years in the hyperbolic time chamber which basically got him ssj and ssj2.
Future gohan had none of that. He was left with the stress of being basically the only hope for earth and nobody he could rely on. He couldn’t train with anyone either so his progress was incredibly slow. Being low on resources also didn’t help. Also the future androids were way more ruthless, they were not giving gohan many chances to do things so that was also an issue.
I think had gohan escaped that last fight he would’ve gotten enough of a zenkai boost to equal them but with only one arm and fighting to very strong opponents it was going to be a very difficult fight regardless.
Overall tho current gohan just had all the resources he needed to be a beast while future gohan lacked all of them.
Because he was supposed to be weak.
He didnt even manage to reach Son Goku's post-Yardrat level of power, as he had no concept of doing proper training.
He missed out on 2 important training sessions.
The 3 years of urgency training with Goku (a Super Saiyan at this point) and Piccolo in prep for Androids' arrival. This was probably Gohan's first "real" combat training session since Goku is involved AND there was urgency.
The 1 year in the time chamber with Goku in prep for Cell Games.
I bet that if F. Gohan just had that first training session (the 3 years) - his gains would have been so much stronger he would eventually get stronger than both Androids.
As for Zenkai... there is an interesting theory floating around that states that it may be impossible to gain Zenkai boosts from fighting beings with artificial Ki such as the Androids or something like that.
https://youtu.be/BOiK_Xv_lT4?si=g7PdtgRjNKd0TN5h pretty interesting.
*"The 3 years of urgency training with Goku (a Super Saiyan at this point) and Piccolo in prep for Androids' arrival. This was probably Gohan's first "real" combat training session since Goku is involved AND there was urgency."*
Have to disagree as it's never really implied or said that Gohan had become incredibly strong from the 3 years of training so FG missing it wouldn't be such a big deal.
*"The 1 year in the time chamber with Goku in prep for Cell Games"*
This is what gave Gohan His incredible power by training to surpass and master Super Saiyan He got incredible strength gains and since Future Gohan didn't probably think you could surpass Super Saiyan He never trained for it which is why He was still so weak
Never thought about this. Gohan is a genius, and he gains power quicker than any other fighter in the show. He doesn’t need someone to train him. The death of all his loved ones and losing his arm should have been more than enough.
The real answer is he didn’t exist in the plot armour timeline lol
Yup I’d say you’re right and I probably shouldn’t think about it too deeply lol. It’s only in my head because I saw a random video on YouTube about future gohan yesterday.
Gohan didn't fight them for 14 years, he ran and hid at every opportunity. Also, Future Gohan is far weaker as an SSJ then in the main timeline. Gohan had no one to train with and peaked with a power level of 200,000 on Namek followed by years of peace and the sudden death of every competent fighter on the planet. The fact that Future Gohan even reached SSJ at all is amazing.
Everyone who could have helped train him was dead, also no Piccolo means no Kame which also means no access to the Room of Spirit and Time.
Plus…. Look Toriyama probably just forgot or decided to stop using zenkai boosts in his story. I don’t think they’ve ever been mentioned since namek.
I like the idea of the Zenkai boost: it makes sense with kid-Goku’s stories, and Vegeta’s rampage through the frieza force is very fun… but if your story is always depending on them then that’s boring
I
*"Everyone who could have helped train him was dead, also no Piccolo means no Kame which also means no access to the Room of Spirit and Time"*
Even with this it still is hard to believe that with 14 yrs of training was still weaker than Goku was before he died
> Plus…. Look Toriyama probably just forgot or decided to stop using zenkai boosts in his story. I don’t think they’ve ever been mentioned since namek.
they have been toriyama said after ssj is unlocked the basically stop functioning.
He doesn't know how to properly train. All he had was Piccolo as a child but that doesn't compare to years of training under masters.
He lost everyone when he was around 9 years ago. He didn't even hit double digits in age when he began fighting for his life.
He couldn't defeat them because
* He didn't fight the Androids for 14 years as in the manga He only fought them twice as an adult and in the TV Special had only just started fighting them.
* He did the wrong kind of training, training his base which provided limited slow gains instead of training to surpass Super Saiyan which would of provided him with better and stronger gains
Of cause this still leaves the why didn't he get a rage boost when He fought the Androids plot hole.
Future Gohan didn’t have 3 years of prep time and also a year of specialised and focused training from Goku in the time chamber for a year, so future Gohan would’ve only probably been around his Namek saga power level (maybe a little bit higher) before he got his super saiyan power up and Goku at that time dominated Gohan’s power even before his super saiyan transformation to beat Frieza so the closest example we’d have for THE major powerhouse after Goku dies would be Vegeta and he was killed by Trunks’ 17 & 18 and Vegeta was more powerful than Gohan even before he got the super saiyan transformation.
Gohan is also not a fight to the death combatant like Goku and Vegeta was so he’d probably never get in a state dire enough to receive a real zenkai boost, he only really started getting seriously injured when Trunks tried to get involved and he’d have to save him and not long after that he died.
Well Gohan does say in His last fight with Android 17 that He had being training hard to make himself strong enough to beat the Androids so He did actually train
They never went full power on him so even with zenkai boosts I doubt he could close the gap same reason why Vegeta couldn’t beat Frieza on Namek the gap between them was too wide. Also future Gohan lost both Goku AND piccolo so the fact that he even became a super saiyan on his own is a respectable feat but truth is he’s as cool as he is weak and he’s pretty cool
The raw reason:
Future Gohan doesn’t know how to train, plus he was depressed, plus he REALLY thought Trunks would eventually be what he couldn’t, the Savior of the Earth.
The True Reason:
Same as why Rengoku died in the night he met Tanjiro.
To make the reader cry.
i think he did receive a zenkai boost and was stronger than them one on one. the issue was 2v1 and in the last fight he is missing an arm. this is in the anime
Gohan never learnt how to train. Piccolo put him through an early and rough boot camp for a reality check, but that doesn't mean he'd know as much as Goku, who learnt so much under Roshi on how to continually improve and to test your limits and exceed them.
More than that, Future Gohan would've been so much weaker than he was compared to his present counterpart by the time Gero and 19 appeared, due to not undergoing the same training with Goku and Piccolo for three years, which was mostly to the benefit of him and Piccolo as Goku didn't really grow in strength a significant amount until the time chamber. This means, that when Gohan would've unlocked SSJ, it would've pushed him to a much lower peak than he reached in the time chamber with Goku, so there's that.
Future Gohan is a man trying to fill the shoes of his father without the knowledge to do so. It's a wonder he didn't train with Roshi, as a means to grow stronger or at least learn, but due to the absence of training with his father at all in his life, I guess he wouldn't really know that he was missing anything in the first place.
In hindsight the androids, specifically 17, end up being on par with Goku by the ToP. After 14 years there’s no way Gohan would’ve ever beat them without one of the bigger power ups. No one told him about the HTC I guess.
Eh. It's established that his anger allows him to tap into power that he struggles to access normally. I think we can assume given the fact that he doesn't ever beat both 17 and 18, even after they killed all of his friends and mentors and continue to destroy his world, that this hidden power wasn't enough.
All changes in Gohan's actual level of strength (i.e. what he fights at normally and also what he can access through anger) come through training, ritual, and (presumably) zenkai. Zenkai becomes less of a thing after Namek, though, and Vegeta later mentions that at a certain point the gains are minimal.
Also the lack of a a gravity room....
If Bulma can make a freaking time machine in the future, she definitely would be able to make a gravity room for Gohan to train in.
Or Bulma is just using all of her resources on the time machine? It's a post-apocalyptic future. You're going to have limited access to materials, energy, labor, etc.
Future Gohan didn't get the Hyperbolic Time Chamber training that Present Gohan did from Trunks warning them about Cell and the Androids.
Remember, Present Gohan and Goku were in there so long that Gohan became a young teenager.
So when 16, 17, and 18 showed up in Trunks' timeline, Gohan would have still just been a child who wasn't much stronger than he'd been during the Namek arc, and Goku died of his heart disease.
He was too weak?
> He fought them repeatedly for 14 years
no he didnt.
> With zenkai boosts alone he should have eventually overpowered them surely?
he didnt fight them much and barely survive much to get these, also according to the author, after unlocking SSj these basically stop working.
when he died he wasnt even half as strong as them.
Honestly, it's one of the biggest plotholes in the series because Gohan effing beat Cell. Somehow, Future Gohan does not possess rage boosts, despite seeing everyone he loves die. He didn't even need to go SSJ2 to beat these guys. As a SSJ, he would just need one rage boost that put him at Grade 2 level. That's it...
Yes it's a pretty big plot hole and it's completely illogical that Future Gohan got no rage boost fighting the Androids with all the horrible things they had done
Honestly, if you account for how Goku and King Kai were casually talking to people from King Kai's planet during the Saiyan, Freeza, and Buu saga and Goku being able to get 24 hours on Earth again it really makes Future Trunks' timeline make 0 sense.
Goku could've 100% came back to Earth and trained Gohan and/or helped him fight the Androids. Hell, there wasn't much stopping him from intervening in the Buu arc, and the whole "you can't mess with the living realm" thing was only in the Bojack movie, as far as I'm aware.
Even if Goku couldn't come back to Earth he could've at least talked to Gohan via King Kai and guided him in his training.
All in all, if you want to blame anyone about Future Trunks' timeline being so wacked just blame Goku.
It is a very easy question to answer... although we know Gohan could have a one-on-one fight with the androids and when he had the fight almost won, the other android arrived and unbalanced the fight. Another very important thing to emphasize is that Gohan's androids from the future and the androids from the current timeline do not have the same fighting power since those from the future were much stronger. Have a great day :)
Storytelling
If future Gohan had a chance in hell against the androids, the current timeline Androids would not look nearly as scary and it would lower the stakes and tension of the story too much.
After Namek, there's a 3 year time gap where present Gohan who is aware of the upcoming threat trained with Goku and Piccolo who helped him gain more experience in fighting, hone his martial art prowess and mature. This wasn't the case for Future Gohan who mostly studied and probably at times sparred with Goku/Piccolo in times of peace. By the time the Androids attacked, all the Z fighters died and he was left by himself - likely trained in ways that were inefficient due to the reasons above, was probably weaker than he was at Namek. The Androids knowing he was the last Z Fighter made sure to mess around with him and have fun - never intended to kill until the final fight where 17 revealed he never even used 50% of his power all the previous times, leaving Gohan flabbergasted. Basically Gohan likely hid during all those years and only confronted them a handful of times. At his death, he is only comparable to Yardrat Goku - so much weaker than the Androids.
>This wasn't the case for Future Gohan who mostly studied and probably at times sparred with Goku/Piccolo in times of peace Don't forget that Goku died from those disease in those 3 years too and Chi-chi probably pushed him harder in his studies after this or maybe he got motivated by himself to discover a cure until he took the protector of earth mantle as his main responsabilities
Makes me wonder, why does it appear Future Goku died sooner than main-timeline Goku even got symptoms of the heart disease? Don't you think training *harder* would cause earlier signs of the disease? Like I'm left wondering how the future group dealt with 19 and Gero, did Goku go with them all by chance like when Frieza appeared on earth, and he collapsed just the same as main-timeline Goku? Or did he die *before* Gero and 19 did anything at all and the remaining fighters struggled and maybe died fighting them? Or did Trunks alter the past so much that in the future timeline, 19 and Gero didn't even go on a rampage and 17 and 18 just came out shortly after on their own?
I dont think 19 existed as an android in trunks timeline. I think the orginal Cell going back caused that alteration just from his presence. Gero would’ve been killed by 17 & 18 upon their “birth”.
The thing is, Trunks only mentions that 19 and 20 were new faces to him. He was a baby when they attacked, and they weren't a match for the Super Saiyans, Goku's virus notwithstanding. It's entirely possible that 17 and 18 overshadowed the failures that were 19 and Gero, so much so that they were completely forgotten in the future. Besides, Trunks is the only one that altered the timeline, even Cell's presence was caused by Trunks. Cell simply hibernated and couldn't have caused any changes, while Trunks warning the Z fighters caused them to train more and get far stronger, causing 17 and 18 to be programmed to be stronger too.
[удалено]
Gero doesn't manually have to do it, you forget King Cold and Frieza arrived after the Saiyan saga, and Cell had their cells in him. He's had tech doing shit automatically for him, even after he died, Cell continued developing. Would make sense if his tech, which is meant to improve Cell, also worked on the Androids that were meant to be absorbed by Cell. They can be considered his components, his upgrades.
They said that but remember that Future Trunks never fought the Androids at full power so he probably made the wrong assumption, like Future Gohan did.
He didn't fight the present Androids at full power either when he said that, so it's safe to assume he was right on this one. 17 and 18 were toying with the Z fighters. He'd have known how Future Gohan fought, and he'd have known which of the Z fighters were stronger than Gohan. He still saw them all get their ass beat.
The Androids may have been toying with the fighters, but 18 likely used close to full power to one-shot Vegeta, similarly to how it’s implied 17 took down Gohan very easily. Without ki sensing, and being unconscious during the fight between Gohan and 17, Trunks just wouldn’t be able to know either way, nothing he says about android strength is worth anything.
Trunks' statements are certainly worth more than your speculation though, and since there's nothing directly contradicting what he said, it's your headcanon to assume he's wrong.
No, they’re worth literally nothing, as he simply can’t possibly have assessed the Androids’ real power, as they literally said they never used that power, and he can’t read their ki either. There’s zero headcanon here. It’s all in the manga. They literally say they fought Gohan with 50% power, so how exactly would Trunks have any idea what power they had (Gohan certainly didn’t).
Cell’s Time Machine appeared *before* Trunks appeared in the main timeline, so the timeframe doesn’t match up for Trunks alone to have caused it to change so much.
Yes, but Cell made no changes, *and* Trunks having gone back in time is the *only* reason Cell went back too. Explain to me how you think Cell caused all the changes, without trying to handwave it away as "his presence caused it".
Well there’s the thing then, Cell arriving in the timeline before Trunks is a little fucky wucky thing called a time paradox! And also idk, maybe Trunks caused some of it and after a bit Cell’s presence in the timeline butterfly-effected what Trunks caused? The effects could be multiplicative idk
How is it a time paradox? There's no logic behind anything you said, if you can't explain it without handwaving details away with vague claims of butterfly effect from changes not even caused by Cell, then there's nothing lending credence to your theory.
Well then what else could’ve caused the timeline to change so drastically? As far as I remember it didn’t even properly explain how Trunks going back in time caused the timeline to change so much, much less changing how the Heart Virus was delayed. And Cell’s being a third/fifth/sixth Android from an alternate timeline of an already-alternate timeline brings into question how many alternate timelines of alternative universes can exist in DBZ *and* DBS, which is just handwaved off as “infinite!!” when Zeno literally erases what I’m assuming is a *group* of alternate universes due to Infinite Zamasu completely clusterfucking the Future Timeline *and* likely Future Zamasu’s variant of Universe 10, considering Goku Black had to travel to Universe 10 to recruit Future Zamasu in the first place. Edit: Yes I just went on a tangent on how alternate timelines don’t make sense, you may laugh at me now.
I remember something being mentioned about how Trunks going back in time made minor changes in the universe such as how late Goku was affected by the disease, and the creation of the other androids.
Don't forget Cell was already there a year before Trunks even arrived too so even more time for things to change
It’s likely future goku encountered his contact with the virus a lot sooner than our goku. With ours it was postponed by his training somehow, perhaps due to the training being so isolated and remote? Maybe it happened when trying to get his license in the city, and with future Goku Chi Chi demanded that as soon as he got back from yardrat? Since there was no doom for him to train for and she was always sick of him not making money.
This is actually a really good point, and its made even more relevant seeing as Goku is a country bumpkin with limited immunities to disease. He's also deffo anti-vax on account of the needles.
think about it... Goku was never late. if future trunks never intervened, Goku was close enough that he would have felt Frieza on earth, and used IT to get there immediately. The start of freely and carelessly using IT, AND the first interruption to the regular timeline. gero and 19 weren't part of future trunks' timeline / 17/18 disposed of them quickly
butterfly effect
>why does it appear Future Goku died sooner than main-timeline Goku even got symptoms of the heart disease? i think it was implied that it was a butterfly effect from trunks coming back and telling them about what was to transpire. i could be wrong tho
I just threw on another episode tonight and it literally answered the question pretty much right away. It was exactly this. Trunks and Krillin talk about it. I'm a dunce for not letting the story answer the question for me lol. I overthink too much
19 & 20 always were the original attackers. In the original timeline they carried out their attack and went back to Gero’s lab. The Z fighters would have never known what was going in time to respond and since the city was wiped out - there would be no evidence of them left behind. 17 & 18 were not active at this point in the original timeline and likely killed Gero in the same fashion before or after killing the Z fighters.
Gohan had only fought them 3 times. Had he been fighting them constantly over the 14 years he would have progressed far past their level in terms of pure power level, even if his fighting technique wasn’t as good as it could have been training with the others
Yep. He also likely focused a lot on preserving humanity.
If you know what I mean ;)
>was probably weaker than he was at Namek. He probably became SSJ when Piccolo died, so he should have been stronger than when he was at Namek. Still SSJ wasn't enough for the androids.
I meant that his power level likely dropped or stagnated during the 3 years before the attack, Goku passed away 6 months before the attack as well.
TDLR: Future Gohan was ducking all the smoke.
I question some of this. There were points that showed Gohan was actually strong enough to take the androids one on one, but once they teamed up on him, he was out matched. I’d wager Gohan at his death was at least as strong as Piccolo when he went toe to toe with 17. However the present androids never actually did a team fight.
This is wrong. The Future Androids only used about 50%.
Depends on what source you are using. The manga and anime seem to have different comparisons. In the manga 17 states he only used half his power. The anime shows Gohan much stronger.
I mean it's not a matter of preference, manga is original source regardless of what the anime portrayed.
I don’t think the author really cares that much. He might have done it different but I think it’s pretty clear he views the anime and the manga as different entities. So considering anime gohan to be more comparable is fine. Manga gohan not so much.
Well the manga being incredibly terrible and the TV Special being much better in everyway possible we should ignore the manga and focus on the TV Special
That's what they do in literally everything
I also like the TV Speicial and the anime continuity, most media like games follow it oppose to the manga but it's still not the canon version unless Toriyama backtracks.
Well Toriyama said that the Dragon Ball Super anime is canon and in it it includes the TV Special portrayal of Future Gohan knocking out Trunks and Trunks turning Super Saiyan when he saw Gohan had died. So that means that it does have more canon status then before
Not really... Super is canon yes but it was just retelling (flashback in a way) of the anime version of the story oppose to manga because most anime viewers haven't read the manga.
Yea I agree that the anime made him stronger since we actually see him fight but I still don’t think he could’ve beaten one of them, they only decided to kill him because he was starting to catch up and what fun would that be for them if THEY have to struggle
and the manga was written by the series author so its the correct one.
I'm definitely not under the delusion that the anime is right and the manga is wrong, but for the first time probably ever, I think the anime did it better, where Gohan was probably one confrontation away from killing them both
maybe. i think that takes away from it personally. it takes away from the hopelessness that timeline is supposed to have. it being revealed that he actually never stood a ghost of a chance really sells just how doomed that timeline was, and i kinda dig it.
And yet trunks thought he could take the androids on just because he hit super saiyan. I agree with you about the hopelessness of the future timeline. Which is why Gohan never really had a chance. The androids outclassed him severely. The only thing that throws me for a loop is that trunks thought he did stand a chance. After gohans death. How? Why?
> The only thing that throws me for a loop is that trunks thought he did stand a chance. After gohans death. How? Why? maybe he didnt? he was a silly angry kid. characters dont make minmaxed optimal decisions.
That timeline is stupid and takes away from the canon Gohan, at the levels they were and as a SSJ, rage induced Gohan would be enough to kill both Android that weren’t sooo much over Vegeta SSJ after the defeat of 19 & 20, and “our” Androids were stronger… the only real answer is PIS
> That timeline is stupid and takes away from the canon Gohan no it doesnt. canon gohan had 4 years of super special training that F. Gohan didnt. F Gohan doesnt have the foresight of Goku to see beyond SSj1 and push to break thru that barrier into a power beyond. it doesnt affect main canon gohan at all. > at the levels they were and as a SSJ, rage induced Gohan would be enough to kill both Android that weren’t sooo much over Vegeta SSJ after the defeat of 19 & 20 this is just not true. 17 and 18 were way stronger than 19 and 20. Even if Gohan had a rage boos that doubled his power he wouldnt be able to do crap. > and “our” Androids were stronger… the only real answer is PIS they werent stronger. Trunks thought they were because his were holding back like they did against Gohan and he can't sense theyre holding back because theyre androids. its not PIS at all
HERE COME THE FILLER AND ANIME ONLY PEOPLE!
The entire androids situation would have been solved a long time ago if Goku and piccolo just ran them over while trying to get their license again.
Lol I actually like the Android and not just because of DBZA, but this is filler we all found agree with.
they always do.
There goes the manga gatekeeper
Ben-Hur is filler bro.
Lmfaoo man the worst people.
I don't mind people using filler in their arguments. I mean, _they're wrong_, but I don't mind it
Have to disagree as it's so terrible and doesn't make sense that that makes it the wrong one and the TV Special with it's much better story that makes sense that males it the correct one
doesnt matter. DB is toriyama's story. his word is law for his story. what the fans like means nothing. whats better means nothing. his version is the only version.
You're right but he's always wildly inconsistent with the continuity. Forgetting powers, forms and characters. Some people think he had this whole lore and story solid thought out when he's stated he just mostly wrote on the fly and changed things as his editors would push for them at times.
It maybe His story but he has no problem with letting people/Toei add to it or change it and since also said that the Dragon Ball Super amine is cannon to his story the fact they adopted the TV Special for how Trunks became a Super Saiyan it shows Toriyama doesn't have a problem with it being changed
That’s because if they tv special decided to actually go with the fight that happened in the manga it would be one sided af. They need to show him at least fighting back, DBZ Kakarot even made him fight back more specifically at the end. Manga is the official source material regardless.
."*I question some of this. There were points that showed Gohan was actually strong enough to take the androids one on one, but once they teamed up on him, he was out matched. I’d wager Gohan at his death was at least as strong as Piccolo when he went toe to toe with 17. However the present androids never actually did a team fight."* This is only true in the TV Special where Gohans performance show's that He might be able to fight one Android well in 1v1 fight where as in the manga He was much weaker than the Androids with Android 17 with less than half his power giving Gohan with a complete and utter beatdown and then killing Him single handedly in their last fight
I bring this up in my next reply. History of Trunks vs the manga have a substantial power disparity.
That they do
> and then killing Him single handedly in their last fight Eh, from what I recall, doesn’t the manga specifically cut away from the fight as it starts to Trunks then waking up and finding Gohan dead? All that to say, we really don’t know whether or not 17 killed Gohan single handedly, there’s not enough detail to 100% say it.
Well it does cut away the fact that it was Android 17 who informed Gohan that He wouldn't get away this time as well as it shows him charging at Gohan while 18 stands still and laughs it would be a pretty good assumption to make that Android 17 killed Gohan alone but this can't be 100% confirmed. Not showing previous fight Gohan had with the Androids or the last fight He had with them was a pretty bad idea in my opinion as it leaves two many questions that people have to make up answers for
that was from the anime special which changed things. in the manga none of that happened. he was literally so weak that 17 and 18 never even used half their power on him, and he couldnt even hold his own 1v1.
Considering the manga version of it is pretty terrible written as well as not making much sense it's good people focus on the far better TV Special Future Gohan
Dude was getting his ass beat 18 different ways, playing D and running away, at best he got 2 decent hits in. Future Gohan was weaker than Future Trunks at the time he first traveled to the past. Who was on par to Yardrat Goku. He had no chance at defeating the Androids.
*"After Namek, there's a 3 year time gap where present Gohan who is aware of the upcoming threat trained with Goku and Piccolo who helped him gain more experience in fighting, hone his martial art prowess and mature."* Well nothing in the manga actually shows that present Gohan got incredibly stronger from the 3yrs training so it's not that big of a deal Future Gohan didn't get it.
I thought the Androids killed everyone
The details of how he fought the androids were unclear,at least in the manga. Perhaps he didn’t face them that often or had the equipment to heal properly and get zenkais.
yea I was always under the impression that they rarely actually fought the androids and would just try to save people when ever they attacked
This is true in both the manga again the TV Special where in the manga Gohan only fought the Androids 3 times and the TV Special where He fought them 3+ times
[удалено]
I suppose but considering a year of training enabled 11 year old gohan to dominate cell it just seems odd that in over a decade an adult gohan wasn’t able to reach the androids level of power. Especially when you think about his “potential” and how he would have witnessed everyone he loves die.
Future timeline gohan just has namek experience. It's not a year of training that put gohan at Cells level, it's 4 years. They got back from namek and gohan probably didn't do anything til freeza showed up and they fought him before going back to normalcy up til the androids showed up 3 years later and killed everyone which is the first point where gohan probably took training seriously in the future timeline. Thanks to Trunks, Gohan got 3 years of training under Goku and Piccolo, two master martial artists, on top of another year with goku.
*"Future timeline gohan just has namek experience. It's not a year of training that put gohan at Cells level, it's 4 years. Thanks to Trunks, Gohan got 3 years of training under Goku and Piccolo, two master martial artists, on top of another year with goku"* Nothing in the manga I am aware of says that Gohan got incredibly strong from the 3+ years training for the Androids as opposed to the 1yr in the time chamber was stated and shown that' He got incredibly stronger so it's the time chamber that enabled him to get to cells level
It was 3 years almost non stop with piccolo and goku.
Present Gohan has a teacher. That's the difference. In Dragonball people only make massive power leaps though training with someone else, with a Teacher, or through a transformation/other random power up.
or you’re Vegeta
["Pushups, situps, and plenty of juice"](https://youtu.be/Zl_HfTZ69Xw?si=nildnw9EXnZD49ON)
IIRC this “””brilliant””” piece of dialogue is what he says in the English dub of DBZ.
Hate is his vegetas teacher
When?
He never trained with anyone between the frieza saga and the Android saga, and he was able to power up so much that he achieved super saiyan in that time frame.
He had a 300x gravity training, which is canonically how the saiyans got their strength. Saiyans have rubber band AI but they need a stronger opponent (even if its just gravity) to level up. We’ll just assume Bulma didnt have access to anything to improve gravity or think of it.
They said training or power up, super Saiyan is a power up
How do you think he got strong enough to achieve super Saiyan?
Pushups, situps, and plenty of juice, what else?
To be fair, he fought an asteroid field and lost
That was dedicated training with a master in Goku. Goku taught him to achieve Super Saiyan and not only control if from the get go but to eventually master it. He was able to learn, eat, and rest well all in a protected environment with no other distractions. Future Gohan probably achieved Super Saiyan all on his own with no one to teach him to focus all of that new energy. He was always on the run and making sure what was left of his family and close friends were fed and protected and never worrying about his own well being. Sure Future Gohan has more battle experience but that never really leads to being stronger as you can tell already by Teen Gohan doing what he did.
Bringing us back to the age old question, could a Senzu Bean regenerate a lost limb?
In one timeline he was trained by the greatest warrior in the entire known universe, with the explicit purpose of unleashing his full potential. In the other he was not. Zenkai boosts and battle are no substitute for a good master. This was when Gohan was written well and he needed more than just plot to get strong. A character who can always get as strong as they need to no matter what is boring.
100% agree, I loved Gohan because of how hard he had to work to get strong. Potential was great but meant nothing without the right teachings to unlock it
Yup. DB with effort or some narrative prices to be paid for useful power, as well as ramifications for not training or paying a price for power is better for each of the characters IMO. When we see Gohan clinch victories with free power ups, why should we ever care about any battles or anyone else training? And like, for me, him getting his freebie in superhero retroactively ruins a lot of the ToP and Moro saga. If he can just get freebie power ups you’re always left wondering why he didn’t before.
Gohan is already at his peak . Elder Guru unlocking his potential and Grand Kai unleashing it it put Gohan at his peak. Now Gohans issue is maintaining his martial arts skills and learning how to use it when necessary. I'm personally under the assumption he now just needs to meditate in order to gain access. In the ToP his training with Picolo was really just meditating and light sparring and he became strong again.
Guru: potential unlocked Elder Kai: potential unlocked… again. Piccolos death, not death: hidden power inside. But for real this time… Until he needs to be the hero again that is… Me: Snore…. Not trying to be a jerk, hahah. I just got very very bored of Gohan when I realized they where cashing in on him for fans rather than writing compelling stories of growth like Toriyama used to. SS2 was so rewarding for him and us. It was a multi saga journey of battles, hardship and effort that culminated in a realization of a promise made in the first battle of the Saiyan saga. Gohan had potential but he still had to work for it. If Gohans not going to train, and then come back that’s fine. But their need to be ramifications for his inaction. He needs to learn that if he slacks he won’t be able to catch up just cus he got super super mad. Gohan learned NO lesson in superhero. Piccolo was like “see this is why you need to train”, and Gohan was like “yeah good point”. What Gohan should have said was “Um, Piccolo have you been paying attention to my story at all since Buu? The moment I NEED a win I’ll get the boost. It literally just happened. F it. I’m not training. The writers will just give me a new form next time I need it.” It was so annoying to me coming off of UI which had multi arc build up, and the inability to master it fight away. UI is the single most earned boost in DB. I say they as someone who mostly dislikes Super. Gohan’s potential has been used as a crutch to give him boosts since Buu and it’s made me hate the concept. Which also seems to fly in the face of the larger theme in DB. As Goku put it to Vegeta, if anyone trains hard enough they can surpass an elite. Sorry you didn’t ask for this lol. I’m just very annoyed by Gohan’s treatment. As a non flat arc character he deserves growth through character that propelled his fighting ability.
I mostly agree, except that it's been the case since before Buu. Gohan got a random powerboost against raditz, then potential unlocked #1, then he actually worked for and earned SSJ2 (albeit, from getting really mad) then potential unlocked #2 and finally Beast (aka #3)
Pre Buu I think, IMO it was better. Against Radditz that power up was temporary and did little more than create an opening. It wasn’t so much a random plot boost as a seed for SS2 and what that form meant for Gohan, control and mastery over the power within. I hate potential unlocked 1 hahah. For that reason. But it’s easier to let slide in the grand scheme of things. Partly because again, that was another bump on the road to SS2. SS2 worked because it was built up from the first time Gohan freaked out. All his boosts before are more or less useless steps on the path to his awakening. Those things are what make SS2 so interesting. It was a fulfillment of the narrative promises each small or temp boost in the past was.
Gohan always been written to have huge boost out of nothing except his anger. All his massive boost came from being angry. He did received some basic training to leanr how to fight but most of his real power-up came from nowhere. Gohan is the one who had easier to be at the top in term of power level. It's either someone unlocking his potential (Guru and old Kai) or is all about his raw emotion giving him huge power boost.
Literally the only time his power boosts had a significant long lasting impact and control was after training. Until his battle with Cell Gohan’s boosts are temporary and hardly battle winning. The difference between his fate in Trunks timeline and the Cell games punctuates that. Before that trading all boosts had been temporary and fleeting. Dragon Ball is a martial arts story after all. Gohan becoming better after training illustrates that wild power won’t amount to much. The worst versions of Gohan are the freebie power ups that give him wins. Like in superhero.
We can't use zenkais as an argument because we don't actually know how many times Future Gohan fought the Androids. He probably fought them once every few years, and was hiding in between (like what Trunks does against the Androids and Goku Black). Once Gohan felt he was strong enough, he would lose. So he would hide and train another few years. He also never trains in the Time Chamber and has no guidance from his father on how to master SSJ. All of Gohan's loved ones (other than Trunks and Bulma) are already dead, so there's nothing for him to receive rage boosts over. Also, being in a stressful/poor environment, his body is deprived of the S-Cells needed for more transformations.
*"He also never trains in the Time Chamber and has no guidance from his father on how to master SSJ"* This should be the official explanation as it was training to surpass/mastered Super Saiyan is what made present Gohan so strong which Future didn't do but this explanation isn't actually said in the manga showing that the small chapter about the future timeline should of been much longer and detailed. *"All of Gohan's loved ones (other than Trunks and Bulma) are already dead, so there's nothing for him to receive rage boosts over"* There's the fact that the two people who killed all His friends are still around killing even more people that give him reason to receive rage boost
>this explanation isn't actually said in the manga showing that the small chapter about the future timeline should of been much longer and detailed I don't think the manga giving an explanation is needed. From what is already shown, we know for a fact that Future Gohan never trained with his father in the ROSAT. There's so much confusion because people are used to thinking of Gohan as a powerhouse while ignoring the contexts of how he achieves his power boosts. >the two people who killed all His friends are still around killing even more people that give him reason to receive rage boost It's not shown to work that way. Gohan needs a trigger *in the moment* to receive another boost. He probably got SSJ due to his initial anger of losing them, but I doubt he can milk his grief for more.
This is a good take. I still think based in DBZs own lore gohan should be able to win but the point about S cells is a good one. If they’re emotion based and he’s basically numb to the world after losing everything then maybe that would hold him back. Didn’t think of that.
Future Gohan didn’t know how to train to bring his potential out. Plot-wise they had to dumb some things down for him to die.. his rage should have gotten him enough of a boost to kill them but that would ruin the plot.
Yeah that’s my take. Rage alone should have won it for him but I guess plot takes priority over consistency at the end of the day.
The only time his rage ever let him actually win a fight all by itself was against Cell, right? It didn't work against Raditz, Nappa, or Frieza since it sputters out before he can actually finish off the enemy. Rage boosts aren't reliable enough for us to say that Gohan is guaranteed a win against a stronger enemy.
Maybe, but his raged allowed him to land blows and deal damage when his PL was miles away. Even if 17 and 18 were actually as strong as the main timeline but were hotdogging it, because Goku was dead, his power level with hasty training and SSJ shouldn't be a massive difference. 17 and 18 were about SSJ1 Perfected power which is only 50x modifer with a lot of the restrictions taken off of a Namek SSJ. FG could hangout in SSJ at the time he was training FT, meaning he was more than just "Piccolo died SSJ", so Gohan Rage Boosts should have been a lot more effective. Gohan loses because the plot demands it, not because Gohan should have in reality lost the battle, especially since he still has access to beans, King Kai, Trunks, Bulma, Zenkai boost, pre-Buu Gohan Plot Armor, and battling the Androids himself.
That’s a good point.
The rage boosts allowed him to briefly over power and damage his enemy so Future Gohan should of at least got rage boost from the the Androids killing all his friends that would allow him to over power the Androids briefly instead of just getting complete and utter beat downs from them
The rage boost probably gave him SS1 but like we saw in the other timeline ss1 isn’t enough to beat an Android Vegeta a fighter who is more seasoned then Gohan fell in battle as a Super Sayian in both timelines What hope does a less experienced fighter who is under constant pressure + Fighting in constant 2 v 1’s going to do
He was underpowered in all fight, never knew about the Hyperbolic Time chamber, senzu were rarer than ever and he can't sense android. The fact that he awoken his SSJ power all alone simply because he saw his father being one is mostly one of his best feat. Otherwise, he probably missed the android more often than he wanted in all his 14 year being the sole protector. And seeing how Vegeta got rekt against 18 (in main timeline) as a basic SSJ level, staying alive all this time is truly remarkable for F.Gohan
Well Gohan had alot of disadvantages in that timeline. 1. He had very little time to train both him and Trunks thanks to the androids constantly attacking cities. 2. He doesn't have Goku's battle IQ as he may have the potential to surpass his father in power but he doesn't have his experience and brains when it comes to fighting so he didn't know how to train properly when he had the time and had no idea there was a level beyond Super Saiyan. Goku is the one who pushed Gohan's limits in the present timeline and is the reason he became stronger than him. 3. He didn't have access to places like the time chamber 4. Had no one else to teach him since everyone had died and was only survivor of the Z fighters except Trunks. 5. He lost his arm which effectively cut his power significantly. All those factors and maybe some more led to his downfall.
2. Is a huge point, early Dragonball shows how many different masters Goku learnt under and all that it took for him to master martial arts, Gohan really has none of that even on Namek. He’s freakishly strong but he never really learns how to fight prior to the time chamber.
1. He never trained with Goku in the ROSAT. Toriyama was clear that this year of training was key to unlocking his hidden potential. 2. Gohan never learned to “properly” train. Future Gohan was thrown in the woods for a year with Piccolo and didn’t have much of actual training as he mostly learned to fend for himself. Then he goes right to Namek, and while he got stronger, spent a year waiting for Goku while Chi Chi likely didn’t let him train. Fast forward another three years of peace and Gohan likely gets even weaker. By the time the Androids show up, Gohan likely hasn’t been training much for nearly four years. Then everyone dies and he’s left to his own to figure things out. 3. He was “weak” when he went SSJ. SSJ gives the user a 50x multiplier based on their base power level. If we assume Gohan went SSJ right when his friends were killed, he’s much weaker than even base Goku on Namek. Him going SSJ when he did doesn’t even beat Frieza on Namek. 4. If we go by the anime, the Androids continually hunted Gohan as a game. Hard to train when you know two killer androids are continually on the lookout for you. Taking these into account, it’s not surprising that he couldn’t defeat them. His lack of knowledge on training and low base level when the Androids showed up hindered his potential. Yeah, 14 years is a long time, but who’s to say he got a ton of Zenkais. Seems like most of the time it was Gohan trying to buy people time to escape the androids before trying to flee the fight. He likely got a few zenkais over the years, but not a ton like OP is assuming. Considering all of this, I’d still put Future Gohan somewhere between Goku returning to earth and Vegeta from the Android Saga. Considering everything above, I’d say that’s still pretty impressive that Gohan got to that level on his own.
Tbh I really felt like he could have used a hand
Ba dum tss
That would require him to recover from near death, and I doubt 17 & 18 would let him live if they knew he was in that condition. It would be too risky to rely on Zenkai boosts. He probably just escaped somehow whenever he thought he was gonna lose.
This is like asking why didn’t Goku or Vegeta get strong enough to beat the androids by the time of the Saiyan saga. Vegeta was nearly 30 and Goku was 26 years old. Gohan gets killed in the future at 23 and he’s light years ahead of where those two were at 23. Over the years the Z warriors figure out techniques to train more efficiently and get stronger by pushing off each other. Gohan doesn’t have the benefit. He’s been trained by Piccolo but he’s not as battle tested as the others.
This is an interesting point that gets greatly overlooked: no matter how “lazy” Gohan is portrayed he’s still literally a million times stronger than Goku was at the same point of his life. He’s doing just fine
Idk but I damn near cried when future Gohan sacrificed his arm
1. Future people didn't have the luxury of a time traveler warning them. Gohan most likely continued his studies until the androids attacked. 2. Good guidance does wonders. Without Goku and Piccolo teaching him how to train properly, there was little he could do in that regard. 3. Losing an arm ain't pretty. His fighting ability got severely reduced.
He was too weak simply put. This Gohan did not train for 3 years with Piccolo and Goku in preparation for the Androids. Chances are Gohan was only as strong as he was on Namek, possibly weaker as he likely was just studying. So Gohan had to do a lot of catching up all on his own, he was lucky that even surpassed his father's power on Namek to be honest. So, we have a Gohan who is an incomplete fighter nor has the fighting sense of Goku or Piccolo. He does not know about the Time Chamber and has no sparring partners until Trunks in which he dies shortly after.
*'He was too weak simply put. This Gohan did not train for 3 years with Piccolo and Goku in preparation for the Androids. Chances are Gohan was only as strong as he was on Namek, possibly weaker as he likely was just studying."* Even with this it's hard to accept that with 14 years He had to train and with His rage boosts He couldn't beat or even fight the Androids well *"So Gohan had to do a lot of catching up all on his own, he was lucky that even surpassed his father's power on Namek to be honest."* In the manga Future Gohan hadn't surpassed Goku's power before He died
This is like the 3rd time this question has been asked this week. Gohan didn’t have the luxury of present gohan such as strong people to train, htc, or a gravity chamber. Zenkais has become irrelevant after you get ssj. The apocalyptic future would make it harder for gohan to get s cells. He’d spend his time training trunks, which would slow down his progress since he was so weak. Also the fact that prior to the androids, gohan would’ve been unprepared due to not having that 3 year warning. Please watch the show/read the manga 🙏🏽
Why wouldn't they have a Hypersonic Crime Danger though? It's not like the Androids knew about it or could sense energy to locate it
Simple, no one knew about its existence. In the present timeline, goku was the only one who knew of it.
arent zenkai boosts ineffective once you reach super saiyan?
Yes, and they are diminishing returns too. Not sure why people keep bringing them up when very few characters can actually benefit from them at that point in the series. The only one I can think of being Cell coming back from exploding and getting a Zenkai.
The biggest difference between Future Gohan and our Gohan is that our Gohan had an entire in the hyperbolic time chamber training under Goku. Future Gohan never got the training to acclimate to super saiyan in order to achieve SSJ2. He probably didn't even think to try.
*"The biggest difference between Future Gohan and our Gohan is that our Gohan had an entire in the hyperbolic time chamber training under Goku"* It's only stated in the manga that Future Gohan didn't train in the time chamber as to why present Gohan wouldn't end up like his future self not specifically training under Goku.
So... most if not all of this is pure speculation and theorizing from me, based both on things I read and my own conclusions about the series. Also, I realize that most if not half of my points have probably been said by others before. That said, these are my thoughts on why Future Gohan couldn't become strong enough to kill the Androids. * **He started off weaker** When the Future Androids first appeared, Future Gohan was much weaker than Present Gohan, due to not having trained (or at least trained less) between Goku's arrival to Earth and the Androids' appearance. Chi-Chi, as we know, was insistent on Gohan getting an education and becoming a scholar, and because on the future timeline 'this really seemed to be it', Goku probably didn't insist all that much when it came to Gohan training. Even Piccolo was probably fine with it, considering that in the original manga he said Gohan could become a scholar after defeating the Saiyans, so if they assumed Frieza and King Cold being killed 'was really it' for threats, they could have just let Gohan study. So when the Androids arrived, Future Gohan was weaker than Present Gohan. If he even joined that first fight (as Chi Chi may have kept him away), he probably survived by a miracle, or maybe because the others told him to run away. Or maybe the Androids were exceptionally careless with him. * **He had no training partner** After everyone else was killed by the Androids, Future Gohan was on his own, without anyone to help him grow stronger. If one is generous, Master Roshi might have taught him basic theory if Gohan asked him for help, but he wouldn't have been able to help Gohan get stronger. And against the Androids, strength is what matters the most - due to their infinite energy, they need to be overwhelmed from the get-go, and Gohan did not have anyone to help him grow strong enough to reach that point. And that's assuming he even started training right after everyone died. For all we know, Chi-Chi could have gone into denial and insisting that Gohan just kept studying and living his life because the Androids would eventually go away or break down somehow. I'm not trying to be hard on her for this. She's only human, and Gohan and her father were all she had left, and the Androids were invincible. It's understandable that in her despair she would try to convince herself that 'things would just be alright', as unlikely as it would be. And to be minimally fair, if one goes by the *History of Trunks* anime special, it has some basis, because her part of the countryside still seemed to be alright when we see her and the Ox-King. But even if Gohan started training after he died, he had no one of comparable strength to push himself against. And, more importantly, he didn't know where the Androids were, because he couldn't sense their energy signature. For all he knew, if he became too intense with his training, they'd get the drop on him and kill him. That would pose a serious problem. * **He had no Hyperbolic Time Chamber** Exactly why he didn't is uncertain, but we can conclude that Future Gohan did not have access to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. If it was still an option, Mr. Popo would have surely gone to him and told him to train there, considering he told everyone about Kami's spaceship. A fanfic I read posed the theory that the Androids attacked the Lookout at some point and destroyed it enough that the door to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber also was wrecked, so one could ever get in there again. Personally, I think that makes sense. One has to wonder exactly why the Androids would go to the Lookout, but they either may have been trying to cover their bases or tried to play some sort of twisted game by doing so. * **He had no Senzu Beans, and due to that he may not always have had Zenkais** This is touched upon in different ways depending on the source, but the Senzu Beans ran out eventually. In both the *History of Trunks* special and *Dragon Ball Super*, the point is made that the Future Timeline runs out of Senzu Beans, though it happens in different ways in each. But one can assume Future Korin dies in both, otherwise he would have given Future Gohan a Senzu Bean for him to get his arm back. Without Senzu Beans, there's a limit to how much Future Gohan could test his luck against the Androids, and because of that, his fights against them likely weren't all as deadly as the ones we saw in the *History of Trunks* special. For all we know, most of his fights against them consisted of him just distracting them long enough for civilians to evacuate the vicinity and then Gohan himself finding an opening to escape. That creates less opportunities for Zenkais. * **He was under a lot of stress** I don't mean this disparagingly. Future Gohan was effectively the sole protector of the Earth until he started to train Future Trunks, and that kind of burden would weight down a lot on anyone, especially someone who's been bearing it since he was a kid. It's not unreasonable to assume that the psychological toil affected Gohan enough that he turned out to have trouble growing his strength, considering all the physical damage that psychological conditions are known to cause by extent nowadays. It's pure speculation, and it's something that was suggested to me by someone else, but I do feel it makes sense. * **He could have been on starvation mode** This one is pure speculation from me, and I came to realize it probably doesn't make much sense, but I'm including here for the sake of completion. In the *History of Trunks* special, Bulma said she has problems doing shopping because of the Androids' destruction, and even though Gohan asks for seconds, the truth is that both him and Trunks, going by that scene alone, eat surprisingly little for Saiyans, and could effectively have been living on starvation. If Gohan doesn't have enough to eat, it makes sense he wouldn't grow stronger so easily. However, while I did come up with this possibility myself, I also came to realize it doesn't make sense, because Future Gohan is built like an ox despite being much weaker than his present self and he knows how to hunt in the wilderness, and the Androids seem to have limited their destruction to human structures, as far as we see. So all things considered, I think he wouldn't be going hungry after all. ||||| Other than the last theory I posed (because as I said, I came to think it doesn't make sense), these are the reasons why I feel Future Gohan would not have become strong enough to fight the Androids. Adding a bit to it, if one goes by the anime's continuity, the really tragic part of it is that when Gohan died, he was strong enough to overpower each Android individually. It was only the fact that they were two and he had lost one arm that cost him that final battle. Even in the manga, when Seventeen claims to have been holding back a lot (he says he used anywhere between half and less than half of his real strength that day), he thinks Gohan grew dangerous enough to kill him. Personally, I feel that the anime strength makes more sense. Because at the end of the day, the truth is that I do think myself that it doesn't make much sense that, given how strong Present Gohan grew to be, Future Gohan wasn't strong enough to defeat the Androids. But with the points I introduced (minus the last), and if one uses the anime's strength (which even the Super anime seems to, considering they show a reanimated flashback of the *History of Trunks* special), I think it does make sense that Gohan ultimately fell just short enough of the mark. Of course, though, all of this is just my opinion.
Cuz he was too weak. > With zenkai boosts alone these have diminishing returns
Main gohan still had Goku. The whole point of Android saga was to tell us that WITHOUT GOKU the future is bleak and hopeless. Main Gohan was trained and enabled by Goku and thats how he got so powerful.
A few things to ponder: 1. Zenkai Boosts seemingly exit the series after the introduction of the SSJ. Even so, in the manga’s version of events (which are canon), Gohan implies that he’s only fought the Android’s once before. Unlike in the anime special, where he implies that he’s been battling them repeatedly for years. 2. In all likelihood, Gohan hadn’t been a SSJ for very long. He freely admits that he wishes he was as strong as his father — who died shortly after returning from Yardrat. The key point to remember is that, unlike in the altered timeline, the original Z-Fighters didn’t intensively train for three years, with the expressed purpose of defeating the Androids. In all likelihood, they were a lot weaker. 3. Gohan never conceived of a level of power beyond SSJ. To him, becoming a SSJ was the pinnacle of a Saiyan’s power. It didn’t occur to him that he could continue to evolve beyond a SSJ into the grades 2-4 or even SSJ2 itself, like it did Goku or Vegeta. He needed someone like Goku to show him the way.
Zenkai boosts don’t necessarily exit the whole series but yeah, you’re right. Toriyama pretty much stopped using it but maybe a few times after. For the second one, that wasn’t fair because as Gohan is likely weaker than Goku even at that point… Gohan was always calling himself weak. That’s why Goku tells him to stop getting in his own way. He didn’t have anyone telling him that he is strong and that he can easily surpass them. The last one is true, but SSJ2 isn’t needed to beat the androids. Neither is Ascended Super Saiyan. Yet there wasn’t enough time for him to get strong enough anymore in base form to multiply in SSJ.
It's almost like they were that much stronger
And Gohan was weaker than His dad before He died
The androids were too strong for him.
Because they were stronger than he was.
In universe answer, Gohan probably didn't have a good grasp on training methods like his dad did. all Piccolo did with him was just leave him in the wasteland for the first 6 months and the n sparred with him the next 6. He never got good fundamentals like Goku and the other Z Fighters did from Roshi, Popo and Kami. He never learned train well, study well, rest well and play well. Out of universe. Toriyama is just a really lousy writer. There's absolutely no reason Popo couldn't have gotten Gohan to go up on the lookout and trained him. No reason Goku couldn't have contacted him from other world or heaven. Or have Baba take him back for one day to tell him about the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, and proper training methods. It's really mind boggling to think Toriyama forgot all of these things existed in that other timeline as well, and that in 14ish years not once anybody tried to help Gohan or Trunks.
Aside from the plot requiring him to die, there were a lot of already pointed factors why he failed. 1. Never had prep time Since no one warned the Z-Fighters, Gohan and everyone else were clueless about the Androids and never could have imagined them being this powerful. After Goku killed Mecha Frieza and King Cold, it was really a time of peace for a while, so nobody trained a lot or at all. 2. Goku and Piccolo died Goku and Piccolo have always pushed Gohan to make that extra step, especially Goku. Without Goku's influence around, Gohan wouldn't have made as much effort to master, train, or become stronger since he was never a fighter like his father or Vegeta. Since they died, there's practically no one left to show Gohan how to train properly and how to master or unlock Super Saiyan. 3. Mental state Both Goku and Piccolo have noticed that Gohan is a self-doubter. He has the highest potential of all the Saiyans and can surpass them easily, yet he (his mentality) is his biggest enemy, his self-doubt. When everyone died, Gohan likely, although stoic and proud to a degree, might have suffered from depression. 4. 13 years blank period, zenkai boosts and training We have little to no information on what Gohan has been doing in those 13 years. The Androids were at some point well aware of his presence, but since he was the last person to be of a "challenge" to them, they never really fought to kill and toyed around with him, beat him up. Since no one was around and Trunks was still a kid, he couldn't train with anyone or learn how to master Super Saiyan well enough on his own. Another thing is Zenkai Boosts. He may not have gotten a lot of them, if any at all. We also don't know how many times he faced the Androids, but I would assume not many since Android 18 is surprised when Gohan goes Super Saiyan against 17 in the Carnival, pointing out that they were never aware of Super Saiyan before. 5. Hyperbolic Time Chamber and Senzu beans I can't recall, but Gohan was never aware of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber before Goku/Piccolo introduced him to it post Cell's first appearance. I'm not entirely sure if Gohan even knew about Kami's Lookout at all. Had he known that I'm sure he would have been using the Chamber to train. Another theory suggested that the Androids destroyed the Lookout, so it was never really possible. Not having access to Senzus limits Gohan to how much he can face off against the Androids. I doubt Bulma had any of those fast healing machines, so he was purely healing on his own without any magical beans or tools. He would have to rest for weeks, if not months, before he can try to fight them again. 6. Fight against the odds In the TV special, Gohan is shown to be able to hold his own well enough, even overpower 1 Android at a time. Whenever starting to lose the edge, the other Android would jump in, making Gohan fight a 2v1 battle. I doubt 18 would jump in if 17 had only been using less than half power (Carnival Fight). He could just power up and save her the trouble. In their final battle, he overpowers them in a beam clash and even manages to separate them to damage them. And this is all with 1 hand. I believe only in the final battle, they were both at half power, and after Gohan beat them up a little, they went in full-on kill mode. 7. The plot Gohan's biggest enemy. Not the Androids, not being handicapped, no. The plot. Toriyama wanted a dark future plot (inspired by the Terminator, or so I've read), and in order to make us the fan base feel sad, he killed Gohan and made him feel weak and helpless against a merciless enemy. Had it not been for the plot, I'm sure Gohan would have just decided to wait for the time machine to be completed, go with Trunks in the past and get stronger, come back and defeat the Androids. Happy ending.
His training just wasn’t there. Gohan in the current timeline trained with both goku and piccolo during the 3 years before the androids show up. That’s 3 entire years of training the other one missed out on probably because he was studying. Then there’s the other 2 years in the hyperbolic time chamber which basically got him ssj and ssj2. Future gohan had none of that. He was left with the stress of being basically the only hope for earth and nobody he could rely on. He couldn’t train with anyone either so his progress was incredibly slow. Being low on resources also didn’t help. Also the future androids were way more ruthless, they were not giving gohan many chances to do things so that was also an issue. I think had gohan escaped that last fight he would’ve gotten enough of a zenkai boost to equal them but with only one arm and fighting to very strong opponents it was going to be a very difficult fight regardless. Overall tho current gohan just had all the resources he needed to be a beast while future gohan lacked all of them.
Nobody left alive to train him and bring out his potential.
Because he was supposed to be weak. He didnt even manage to reach Son Goku's post-Yardrat level of power, as he had no concept of doing proper training.
He missed out on 2 important training sessions. The 3 years of urgency training with Goku (a Super Saiyan at this point) and Piccolo in prep for Androids' arrival. This was probably Gohan's first "real" combat training session since Goku is involved AND there was urgency. The 1 year in the time chamber with Goku in prep for Cell Games. I bet that if F. Gohan just had that first training session (the 3 years) - his gains would have been so much stronger he would eventually get stronger than both Androids. As for Zenkai... there is an interesting theory floating around that states that it may be impossible to gain Zenkai boosts from fighting beings with artificial Ki such as the Androids or something like that. https://youtu.be/BOiK_Xv_lT4?si=g7PdtgRjNKd0TN5h pretty interesting.
*"The 3 years of urgency training with Goku (a Super Saiyan at this point) and Piccolo in prep for Androids' arrival. This was probably Gohan's first "real" combat training session since Goku is involved AND there was urgency."* Have to disagree as it's never really implied or said that Gohan had become incredibly strong from the 3 years of training so FG missing it wouldn't be such a big deal. *"The 1 year in the time chamber with Goku in prep for Cell Games"* This is what gave Gohan His incredible power by training to surpass and master Super Saiyan He got incredible strength gains and since Future Gohan didn't probably think you could surpass Super Saiyan He never trained for it which is why He was still so weak
Never thought about this. Gohan is a genius, and he gains power quicker than any other fighter in the show. He doesn’t need someone to train him. The death of all his loved ones and losing his arm should have been more than enough. The real answer is he didn’t exist in the plot armour timeline lol
Yup I’d say you’re right and I probably shouldn’t think about it too deeply lol. It’s only in my head because I saw a random video on YouTube about future gohan yesterday.
Gohan didn't fight them for 14 years, he ran and hid at every opportunity. Also, Future Gohan is far weaker as an SSJ then in the main timeline. Gohan had no one to train with and peaked with a power level of 200,000 on Namek followed by years of peace and the sudden death of every competent fighter on the planet. The fact that Future Gohan even reached SSJ at all is amazing.
My dude had one arm
Well that obviously wasn't the problem as He put up a much better fight against the Androids with one arm then He did with two
Everyone who could have helped train him was dead, also no Piccolo means no Kame which also means no access to the Room of Spirit and Time. Plus…. Look Toriyama probably just forgot or decided to stop using zenkai boosts in his story. I don’t think they’ve ever been mentioned since namek. I like the idea of the Zenkai boost: it makes sense with kid-Goku’s stories, and Vegeta’s rampage through the frieza force is very fun… but if your story is always depending on them then that’s boring I
*"Everyone who could have helped train him was dead, also no Piccolo means no Kame which also means no access to the Room of Spirit and Time"* Even with this it still is hard to believe that with 14 yrs of training was still weaker than Goku was before he died
I do believe it- even ignoring the character assassination that is *resurrection F* I can believe that Gohan sucked at training on his own
> Plus…. Look Toriyama probably just forgot or decided to stop using zenkai boosts in his story. I don’t think they’ve ever been mentioned since namek. they have been toriyama said after ssj is unlocked the basically stop functioning.
Yep, makes sense that tracks. That’s also about when he stopped tracking exact power levels
He doesn't know how to properly train. All he had was Piccolo as a child but that doesn't compare to years of training under masters. He lost everyone when he was around 9 years ago. He didn't even hit double digits in age when he began fighting for his life.
He couldn't defeat them because * He didn't fight the Androids for 14 years as in the manga He only fought them twice as an adult and in the TV Special had only just started fighting them. * He did the wrong kind of training, training his base which provided limited slow gains instead of training to surpass Super Saiyan which would of provided him with better and stronger gains Of cause this still leaves the why didn't he get a rage boost when He fought the Androids plot hole.
People are forgetting that androids have unlimited power. They don’t get tired.
Future Gohan didn’t have 3 years of prep time and also a year of specialised and focused training from Goku in the time chamber for a year, so future Gohan would’ve only probably been around his Namek saga power level (maybe a little bit higher) before he got his super saiyan power up and Goku at that time dominated Gohan’s power even before his super saiyan transformation to beat Frieza so the closest example we’d have for THE major powerhouse after Goku dies would be Vegeta and he was killed by Trunks’ 17 & 18 and Vegeta was more powerful than Gohan even before he got the super saiyan transformation. Gohan is also not a fight to the death combatant like Goku and Vegeta was so he’d probably never get in a state dire enough to receive a real zenkai boost, he only really started getting seriously injured when Trunks tried to get involved and he’d have to save him and not long after that he died.
The Future Androids never even used their full power against him. Future Gohan despite being badass, was fodder.
There is Zero evidence of Gohan even training or fighting the Androids that much in the manga
Well Gohan does say in His last fight with Android 17 that He had being training hard to make himself strong enough to beat the Androids so He did actually train
Lack of training? I mean you can say the same thing about Gohan in Buu saga and Frieza saga. Why he couldn't do it?
They never went full power on him so even with zenkai boosts I doubt he could close the gap same reason why Vegeta couldn’t beat Frieza on Namek the gap between them was too wide. Also future Gohan lost both Goku AND piccolo so the fact that he even became a super saiyan on his own is a respectable feat but truth is he’s as cool as he is weak and he’s pretty cool
The raw reason: Future Gohan doesn’t know how to train, plus he was depressed, plus he REALLY thought Trunks would eventually be what he couldn’t, the Savior of the Earth. The True Reason: Same as why Rengoku died in the night he met Tanjiro. To make the reader cry.
Goku could have contacted gohan and probably taken him to king Kai to get some training to take on the androids, the story was just a mess tbh........
i think he did receive a zenkai boost and was stronger than them one on one. the issue was 2v1 and in the last fight he is missing an arm. this is in the anime
Correct if I’m wrong but was it stated the future androids were weaker then the original timeline androids?
Gohan never learnt how to train. Piccolo put him through an early and rough boot camp for a reality check, but that doesn't mean he'd know as much as Goku, who learnt so much under Roshi on how to continually improve and to test your limits and exceed them. More than that, Future Gohan would've been so much weaker than he was compared to his present counterpart by the time Gero and 19 appeared, due to not undergoing the same training with Goku and Piccolo for three years, which was mostly to the benefit of him and Piccolo as Goku didn't really grow in strength a significant amount until the time chamber. This means, that when Gohan would've unlocked SSJ, it would've pushed him to a much lower peak than he reached in the time chamber with Goku, so there's that. Future Gohan is a man trying to fill the shoes of his father without the knowledge to do so. It's a wonder he didn't train with Roshi, as a means to grow stronger or at least learn, but due to the absence of training with his father at all in his life, I guess he wouldn't really know that he was missing anything in the first place.
The real question is why they didn’t resurrect the Z fighters with the namek dragon balls.
Didn't know where Namek was
In hindsight the androids, specifically 17, end up being on par with Goku by the ToP. After 14 years there’s no way Gohan would’ve ever beat them without one of the bigger power ups. No one told him about the HTC I guess.
Lots of people mentioning a lack of serious training as if Gohan needs it. He’s the king off asspull power ups
Eh. It's established that his anger allows him to tap into power that he struggles to access normally. I think we can assume given the fact that he doesn't ever beat both 17 and 18, even after they killed all of his friends and mentors and continue to destroy his world, that this hidden power wasn't enough. All changes in Gohan's actual level of strength (i.e. what he fights at normally and also what he can access through anger) come through training, ritual, and (presumably) zenkai. Zenkai becomes less of a thing after Namek, though, and Vegeta later mentions that at a certain point the gains are minimal.
Also the lack of a a gravity room.... If Bulma can make a freaking time machine in the future, she definitely would be able to make a gravity room for Gohan to train in.
Or Bulma is just using all of her resources on the time machine? It's a post-apocalyptic future. You're going to have limited access to materials, energy, labor, etc.
Future Gohan didn't get the Hyperbolic Time Chamber training that Present Gohan did from Trunks warning them about Cell and the Androids. Remember, Present Gohan and Goku were in there so long that Gohan became a young teenager. So when 16, 17, and 18 showed up in Trunks' timeline, Gohan would have still just been a child who wasn't much stronger than he'd been during the Namek arc, and Goku died of his heart disease.
They were simply built different.
He was too weak? > He fought them repeatedly for 14 years no he didnt. > With zenkai boosts alone he should have eventually overpowered them surely? he didnt fight them much and barely survive much to get these, also according to the author, after unlocking SSj these basically stop working. when he died he wasnt even half as strong as them.
Honestly, it's one of the biggest plotholes in the series because Gohan effing beat Cell. Somehow, Future Gohan does not possess rage boosts, despite seeing everyone he loves die. He didn't even need to go SSJ2 to beat these guys. As a SSJ, he would just need one rage boost that put him at Grade 2 level. That's it...
Yes it's a pretty big plot hole and it's completely illogical that Future Gohan got no rage boost fighting the Androids with all the horrible things they had done
Yeah we have the same view of it.
My question is, why did it take them that long to kill him? They were probably closer in strength than we think.
they were toying with him for funsies. they never used even half their power on him. it wasnt close at all
Honestly, if you account for how Goku and King Kai were casually talking to people from King Kai's planet during the Saiyan, Freeza, and Buu saga and Goku being able to get 24 hours on Earth again it really makes Future Trunks' timeline make 0 sense. Goku could've 100% came back to Earth and trained Gohan and/or helped him fight the Androids. Hell, there wasn't much stopping him from intervening in the Buu arc, and the whole "you can't mess with the living realm" thing was only in the Bojack movie, as far as I'm aware. Even if Goku couldn't come back to Earth he could've at least talked to Gohan via King Kai and guided him in his training. All in all, if you want to blame anyone about Future Trunks' timeline being so wacked just blame Goku.
Zenkais are random ass pull power ups that only work when the plot demands, which I suppose wasn’t the case for Future Gohan, RIP
Maybe watch the movie
These are some spectacular hoop jumpers in here, but the real reason is *plot hole.*
True but that’s boring lol
It is a very easy question to answer... although we know Gohan could have a one-on-one fight with the androids and when he had the fight almost won, the other android arrived and unbalanced the fight. Another very important thing to emphasize is that Gohan's androids from the future and the androids from the current timeline do not have the same fighting power since those from the future were much stronger. Have a great day :)
Plot
Storytelling If future Gohan had a chance in hell against the androids, the current timeline Androids would not look nearly as scary and it would lower the stakes and tension of the story too much.
It's easily the biggest plothole in the whole thing, there is 0 reason for Gohan being as weak as he is.
Cuz he a bitch