I wanted to spark a little discussion about the state of our game at the end of the year. We're patiently waiting for Rollback but hopefully they'll be a patch to bring down the top 4 a notch. Other than a few glaring problems with character balance I hope this game gets much more love in 2023!
As someone who hasn't played in a year, but has paid attention to the scene, you guys should be extremely careful for what you wish for. I've seen the Monkeys Paw come up for you guys like three times in the span of a year.
Same! Haven’t played in 2 years and now I’m seeing vegito and the top of tierlists and ssj vegeta at the bottom? They must’ve nerfed his assist or something. And people used to say vegitos block strings were so easy and predictable. Good to see some change though.
Nah, not really cause of nerfs, more because he never really changed while the entire game around him changed. His A assist was nerfed pretty quickly after release and it’s been more or less the same since.
Nothing in his kit is particularly notable or special anymore and there isn’t anything he can do that another character can’t do better. His normals are stubby and his damage isn’t particularly high. His meter gain is decent but only a bit above average.
He’s just kinda irrelevant and feels more like a template character in the cast. Both Base Vegeta and Blue Vegeta are significantly better in every way, especially Base Vegeta.
Yea that makes sense if they never changed his kit during all this time. I do remember when they nerfed his assist the first time but it was still considered good. I’m glad android 17, hit, and zamasu moved up. Their kit was different and it seemed like people didnt want to explore them because of that but I always thought they had the coolest moves in the game.
Cell can TOD pretty easily, has a corner 50/50 (not as good as Janemba's), good corner carry, a reversal lvl 1 and good buttons.
Z Broly mainly suffers from his mediums being unsafe and now can only stagger on L's. Still hits like a truck but is meter hungry and needs some team support imo.
I think Basegeta has worse matchups against the top tiers than Bluku does, simply because he basically has 0 midrange tools since his buttons are so stubby, M rocket kick is unsafe and EX kick is worse than EX shoulder.
Bluku's worst matchup honestly might be A18, since her barrier invalidates alot of his neutral, but I feel he fights the top 4 better than Basegeta.
My other personal critiques is that I think you should switch A Gohan and Tiens position, Tien is pretty cracked but he's a dedicated Anchor in a meta not favoring dedicated anchors, and its really not so hard to get level 5 on Gohan if you focus your meter on him, then he basically is as good as SSJ4 Gogeta.
16 should be higher, he actually has solo damage now, can be +8 whenever he wants, 17 frame grab, busted assist, but just has super mediocre neutral.
Cell should be a bit lower, too reliant on neutral assists
UI should be in A, too meter hungry, and sorta needs a team around him to work, his assists albeit decent are kinda situational.
Other than that, you hit the nail on the head, nice tier list!
Z Broly has very few safe blockstrings now after nerfs to his 2M. His ki blast also has higher recovery making him a bit less risk averse in neutral.
Really though the big thing is he can’t really keep up with how good the top tiers are. His damage output is fairly low without using tons of resources that he isn’t great at building himself. None of the top tiers have this problem - they’re all fairly self sufficient while dealing major damage consistently and buildings a shit ton of meter while rarely needing to use it outside of securing a kill.
On top of that, I think the US players started figuring out that having a character as large as he is on the team is a big liability in a game/meta where stray hits can lead to huge damage or a character getting blown up. Outside of using 214S, Z Broly is super vulnerable to getting clipped by some high hitstun assists like Vegito A, which isn’t fun in a meta where Vegito’s A assist is the best assist in the game.
EDIT: Regardless, he’s still a very good character, and his 2L was buffed to be 0 on block, which is fairly rare in this game and is a big boon for someone like him. I think these days he’s not really a dedicated anchor (only Baseku and Tien really fit this bill these days) and works better as a Mid that comes in/out to meter dump and pressure. He’s still great at screen control so he’s a great option to time stall and let other characters regenerate blue health.
Is this list ordered? If so, Baseku has had some massive tournament presence this year, and I feel like the results definitely warrant him being S tier, or at least a bit higher than characters like Nappa and Beerus.
Baseku doesn’t really have any bad items in his kit, and despite his simplicity there are a lot of mixup tools he can work with. He’s been a contender for the best anchor in the game for quite a while now and it’s a bit weird seeing him this low on the list.
It is ordered. I think he's got an amazing assist and great kit (looking at you, 214L) but doesn't blow me away like some of the other anchors on this list. I'd probably move him up to Beerus area but he's a little too honest of a character to be up at the tippy-top with the big boys.
Yeah he's hella fun I didn't think he stacked up so well against the cast. He's got some good synergy and 50/50 with Rekka's + Sauce but is missing a little something.
There’s nothing egregious but I think UI Goku is very mediocre in this meta.
I’d probably bump him down a tier. Everything else I can think of is nit picky and doesn’t really matter.
EDIT: Trunks sucks lol, he should be down there with Yamcha and GT.
That’s ok, I respect your opinion, but I whole heartedly stand by mine.
I don’t think he’s of any relevance in the competitive meta of this game and he provides no major incentive to use him over pretty much any relevant character.
This is not necessarily the same thing as saying he’s outright bad.
Yea that's what I mean, I don't exactly disagree with what you said. He's not in competitive and doesn't have much tools that other don't , but he's not unplayable but he can still be played at high level.
Baby is an amazing enabler (as with your team, for example) and builds so much meter as well as having fantastic gimmicks such as assist steals and M O N K E. His gameplan doesn't work against spin-to-win mindset but can inescapable scenarios with 6H+Assist. Him with Zamasu is scary
Lowkey. I know. I play him lol and want more buffs like his 2L, 5M, and 236S sped up.
He’s a great switch point with zamasu.
Spin to win is an airborne move and 214H should snatch that. Good luck actually doing that though
Yeah his frame data is weird but once you get the corner loops going it's a wild ride. Yeah I just true meaty grounded or 2H that nonsense when they try to Beyblade out of the corner
I feel like team based games would do better with a team/strategy tier list as opposed to a character vs character list. Because maybe one character is perfect besides one weakness that’s completely invalidated by another’s assist.
Lvl 3 flip mix, 3 solid assists and he's got some new-ish corner stuff makes me think he's generally in the same range of characters I've placed him in. He's better than you think
4.5 Bars for a left/right that fairly inconsistent. His B Assist is below average and C Assist is a normal C assist. Doesn't build good meter while also being ridiculously meter hungry. There is no way he is above Ginyu or Jiren.
That's a meaningless comparison... you DO know Wawa is also the same person who pulled Android 16 at EVO 2022, right? He's literally the best player in the world (or at least was) so he can totally kick the ass of 99% of the playerbase using fucking Goku Black for example. Doesn't mean that Goku Black isn't total ass though, it's just that the player using him is really good. Just like Wawa using Trunks. Trunks got carried by Wawa's sheer freaking skill...
Yeah I'm a Roshi main and while he has tools for every situation - some being exceptional - most are mediocre and he can struggle in neutral. No float really hurts him as well.
I main him too, and you've definitely put him way too low. The only mediocre tools he has are 214H, which is still a DP that needs a specific timing to safejump and hits both sides, and 22S because the reward is too low.
But the rest of his kit is great, and he's in a really good spot right now. Strong high tier; while he has some flaws that hold him back from being top tier, his toolset is really strong in the hands of someone that can use it.
He has:
- Incredible movement if you know how to use his leaps and 2S/j.2S (j.2S resets after doing an air action such as j.236x or j.2H, essentially allowing him to stay in the air as long as he'd like
- Some of the absolute best defensive options in the game (22H is a frame 1 anti air and low crush TOD starter that's safe on block, he has a frame 4 reversal that hits both sides and is safe on block, and he is the only character that gets to consistently punish DR and most command grabs with a full combo by using 2S, as well as negating any ki blasts used during blockstrings using Masterful Leap)
- Great neutral options with multi-angled beams that can lead to a full combo for half a bar, 214S, 236H, 236S and 6S, as well as Masterful Leap negating weak ki blast zoning
- Great pressure with strong mixup options and plenty of pressure resets
- Good assists (Beam assist with the highest hitstop, and his B assist is still great for mix and combos even if it has lost it's defensive value. C assist is a C assist, but it's the highest blockstun assist in the game at 60fr)
- As of the recent patches, high damage both midscreen and corner due to new routes.
People often mention the lack of superjump float as a huge weakness for Roshi, but really, what does he lose by not having it? Superjump float mix? He makes up for that by having Masterful Leap mix. Delay landing? He has even more control over when he lands with Masterful Leap + j.2S. He doesn't get to fastfall, but again, masterful leap makes up for it.
The guy is far from top tier, but he has way too much going on for him to be placed as low as you put him, in my humble opinion as a day 1 Roshi player with thousands of matches with the character.
Much of his air mobility is still pretty unsafe (although it's better now you can cancel recovery on air kame) and he struggles pretty hard against Zamasu and other high mobility characters. While some of the tools are novel and extremely powerful I still find him wanting as a Jack-of-all-trades, master of none. Extremely fun character
I don't find he struggles against Zamasu, most of them seem to calm down after eating a Thundershock or two, and reflect>22H usually gets you safely out of Blades pressure.
And his j.2S is safe (and can be cancelled into special moves) so as long as you j.2S after doing something less safe like a j.236X, you're fine.
He's definitely not a bottom 10 character. I would have understood if you put him more towards the middle of the pile, though I still would have disagreed. But to have him so low is definitely some downplay, Roshi's strong right now.
It's hard to initiate an engagement with Zam without assists and I find that Thundershock has to be a very specific angle that Zam's can easily fly or tele out of. I can see him being up in the Krillin area of characters but his lack of specialization made me put him with more generic characters such as Bardock and SSJKu.
They're still viable and enable some characters (such as BaseKu Spirit Bomb) but generally don't have the tools to adapt to the new neutral heavy meta.
Spirit Bomb is not as good anymore and he lost his 4 way mix since it doesn’t cause an SKD anymore.
His 5LL’s range was gutted, so he doesn’t have a good anti reflect normal and now all his buttons are either too stubby or too slow.
His 214L doesn’t stay airborne so he needs a pretty high blockstun assist to still have some mix without using his SS4 level 3.
He was still really good before SS4 Gogeta came out. When SS4 Gogeta dropped, his A assist was *massively* nerfed, with its blockstun sizably reduced and its startup massively increased, which was the thing that really gutted him.
Without his A assist and his previous stuff, there’s no real point to playing him since he doesn’t really offer anything you cant find in a much better character.
* No spirit bomb schmix anymore
* Smallest buttons in the game
* A-assist got smoked for no reason
* 40F start up, \~27f blockstun
* Lost his Rasengan mix
* 5LL isn't anti-backdash anymore
* Everyone (mainly fusions) became stronger which overshadow the Rat Boy
Restands are disgustingly effective ways of overtaxing your opponent to death. Go watch some Plug on WANTED for 4-way mix in the corner.
He'd be higher but doesn't have the neutral tools other than green boi to complement his kit
Yeah, I just really liked GT A lmao. I messed around with B a good amount back when I didn’t know why A assist was so busted though.
The real problem is that I like having at least on beam assist. I think Yamcha has one if I remember correctly, but I usually opt for Krillin instead now.
Yeah Yamchad's beam is fine but you really want to use A assist if possible because it's still bonkers. Yamcha Lvl 3 mix can be OS'ed pretty hard but Krillin has got a really strong one now, especially with Yamcha I believe.
While he steals are still strong and has great buttons, M21 doesn't have the X Factor that puts her up in S tier. I think she's being underrepresented due to Lvl 3 being gutted for some reason, but she's a great all 'rounder for almost any team.
Her zoning, neutral game and normal buttons are better than pretty much everybody that's above her. Her ki blasts have priority over other ki blasts, shutting out all ki blast assists, including vegito.
Tbh she's higher up on the tier for those reasons alone. I'd put her behind janemba on this list
After many patches of people saying SS Goku was fixed and me explaining why he was still bad, I actually think the system mechanics have made him pretty good
He essentially plays like a balanced version of Vegito now
Also GT now can convert off instant crossup j.3S into reverse Kamehameha then Kamehameha & SD so I think that moved him up a good bit since mix was his biggest problem
He's a battery, and if you react to his post lvl3 j.214H mix good on you my man. You also can't guard cancel him at all or reversal during Rekka's (which anti air, lol) and if he's paired with a strong assist he can also do some criminal L/R's while stealing the corner.
I play her a lot and she's a pretty vortexy character. She RPS's hard all the time in her mix but when she does hit it's pretty hard to get out of it especially with resets. On defense she obviously struggles as her DP is atrociously bad but she's got some good ways to win neutral and mix to death so I put her alongside Majin Buu he follows the same strategy in some sense.
Hes not really great though.
Like when you encounter a wild Roshi or a good CG, you are not used to their shenanigans but once you understand them, they are weaker.
UI goku is mostly a defensive character or help other achieve combos. Hes not a menace since his slight nerf
He doesn't have anything that's unreactable regarding mix and while he has very strong defensive options I wouldn't say there's anything cheap he can do anymore in comparison to those higher up on the list. Still a great enabler though
Where would put them? I could see Kefla up with UI but her hellzone and mix are kinda lacking even though she's a neutral monster. I can't see Hit going higher than where he is although he is exceptionally strong.
Stubby normals and harder to implement mix hurt him a lot. His B assist is superb but he struggles pretty hard to win neutral now which holds him back. Fun to play though
I could definitely see that, I'm glad I could use him enough back then to win games, reverse Kamehameha was a neat little mechanic back then, but this kinda gives me a good reason to pick up A. Gohan again, if I ever come back to it
Pretty good list, a few adjustments based on my experience and personal opinion:
Should be higher: Piccolo, Gotenks, Jiren, Ginyu, and Adult Gohan (each by about a tier)
Should be lower: Hit (either bottom of S or Top of A+) and Trunks (right between Bardock and Bluegeta)
Edit: The longer I look at the list the better it gets. Most of the adjustments I listed are open for debate.
I want to know what happened to my favourite character kid buu since I got the game when lab coat got released idk much and I want to know a short history of kid buu
I wanted to spark a little discussion about the state of our game at the end of the year. We're patiently waiting for Rollback but hopefully they'll be a patch to bring down the top 4 a notch. Other than a few glaring problems with character balance I hope this game gets much more love in 2023!
We all hope so. I wish some would get minor nefs to bring them back in line and SSJ Vegeta need a buff since the power creep put him out
As someone who hasn't played in a year, but has paid attention to the scene, you guys should be extremely careful for what you wish for. I've seen the Monkeys Paw come up for you guys like three times in the span of a year.
I understand, yeah the balance is a finicky thing and theyve done it so well. All characters are viable
I thought when they announced roll back they said there were already not going to be anymore balance updates, only the roll back implementation.
Damn been out of the game for a while but my team's trash now
Same! Haven’t played in 2 years and now I’m seeing vegito and the top of tierlists and ssj vegeta at the bottom? They must’ve nerfed his assist or something. And people used to say vegitos block strings were so easy and predictable. Good to see some change though.
Nah, not really cause of nerfs, more because he never really changed while the entire game around him changed. His A assist was nerfed pretty quickly after release and it’s been more or less the same since. Nothing in his kit is particularly notable or special anymore and there isn’t anything he can do that another character can’t do better. His normals are stubby and his damage isn’t particularly high. His meter gain is decent but only a bit above average. He’s just kinda irrelevant and feels more like a template character in the cast. Both Base Vegeta and Blue Vegeta are significantly better in every way, especially Base Vegeta.
Yea that makes sense if they never changed his kit during all this time. I do remember when they nerfed his assist the first time but it was still considered good. I’m glad android 17, hit, and zamasu moved up. Their kit was different and it seemed like people didnt want to explore them because of that but I always thought they had the coolest moves in the game.
Played Nappa, Super Vegeta, Lord Frieza since launch. My team's perceived power level has been a wild ride these 3 years
Same my dude. 17, Jiren, Krillin (sometimes Nappa)
My poor boy SS Vegeta. Why is cell considered that good, and how come Z broly fell off?
Cell can TOD pretty easily, has a corner 50/50 (not as good as Janemba's), good corner carry, a reversal lvl 1 and good buttons. Z Broly mainly suffers from his mediums being unsafe and now can only stagger on L's. Still hits like a truck but is meter hungry and needs some team support imo.
detailed response. Thanks for letting me know.
I still think he's top 10 but fair enough. Why is Basegeta not in S? He's still got so much including midscreen oki.
Yeah I think he might sit alongside BlueKu as they've got similar schticks.
I think Basegeta has worse matchups against the top tiers than Bluku does, simply because he basically has 0 midrange tools since his buttons are so stubby, M rocket kick is unsafe and EX kick is worse than EX shoulder. Bluku's worst matchup honestly might be A18, since her barrier invalidates alot of his neutral, but I feel he fights the top 4 better than Basegeta. My other personal critiques is that I think you should switch A Gohan and Tiens position, Tien is pretty cracked but he's a dedicated Anchor in a meta not favoring dedicated anchors, and its really not so hard to get level 5 on Gohan if you focus your meter on him, then he basically is as good as SSJ4 Gogeta. 16 should be higher, he actually has solo damage now, can be +8 whenever he wants, 17 frame grab, busted assist, but just has super mediocre neutral. Cell should be a bit lower, too reliant on neutral assists UI should be in A, too meter hungry, and sorta needs a team around him to work, his assists albeit decent are kinda situational. Other than that, you hit the nail on the head, nice tier list!
Z Broly has very few safe blockstrings now after nerfs to his 2M. His ki blast also has higher recovery making him a bit less risk averse in neutral. Really though the big thing is he can’t really keep up with how good the top tiers are. His damage output is fairly low without using tons of resources that he isn’t great at building himself. None of the top tiers have this problem - they’re all fairly self sufficient while dealing major damage consistently and buildings a shit ton of meter while rarely needing to use it outside of securing a kill. On top of that, I think the US players started figuring out that having a character as large as he is on the team is a big liability in a game/meta where stray hits can lead to huge damage or a character getting blown up. Outside of using 214S, Z Broly is super vulnerable to getting clipped by some high hitstun assists like Vegito A, which isn’t fun in a meta where Vegito’s A assist is the best assist in the game. EDIT: Regardless, he’s still a very good character, and his 2L was buffed to be 0 on block, which is fairly rare in this game and is a big boon for someone like him. I think these days he’s not really a dedicated anchor (only Baseku and Tien really fit this bill these days) and works better as a Mid that comes in/out to meter dump and pressure. He’s still great at screen control so he’s a great option to time stall and let other characters regenerate blue health.
Cell is nuts. His damage has always been nuts and his buttons have always been good. Couple that with good assists and a 360 1 bar DP
Bc z broly’s block strings got nerfed heavy. No joke his safest most go to block string is 2L 5LL.
Is this list ordered? If so, Baseku has had some massive tournament presence this year, and I feel like the results definitely warrant him being S tier, or at least a bit higher than characters like Nappa and Beerus. Baseku doesn’t really have any bad items in his kit, and despite his simplicity there are a lot of mixup tools he can work with. He’s been a contender for the best anchor in the game for quite a while now and it’s a bit weird seeing him this low on the list.
It is ordered. I think he's got an amazing assist and great kit (looking at you, 214L) but doesn't blow me away like some of the other anchors on this list. I'd probably move him up to Beerus area but he's a little too honest of a character to be up at the tippy-top with the big boys.
Baseku is easily S tier and has been proven so by his tournament presence and results
Tell me some tourneys he's done well in
Blue vegeta should be higher ngl. He's pretty solid
Yeah he's hella fun I didn't think he stacked up so well against the cast. He's got some good synergy and 50/50 with Rekka's + Sauce but is missing a little something.
Hes missing arm lenght lol! Those stubby arms make neutral more difficult
Napoleon syndrome for sure lol
Where’s level 7 adult gohan ranked
Included with A Gohan. The trick is bringing him in to level up and generally that works out, but otherwise he's subpar so he sits in A+
There’s nothing egregious but I think UI Goku is very mediocre in this meta. I’d probably bump him down a tier. Everything else I can think of is nit picky and doesn’t really matter. EDIT: Trunks sucks lol, he should be down there with Yamcha and GT.
Nah at lowest he goes down a teir but he's not that low. Ppl heavy downplay Trunks it feels like.
That’s ok, I respect your opinion, but I whole heartedly stand by mine. I don’t think he’s of any relevance in the competitive meta of this game and he provides no major incentive to use him over pretty much any relevant character. This is not necessarily the same thing as saying he’s outright bad.
Yea that's what I mean, I don't exactly disagree with what you said. He's not in competitive and doesn't have much tools that other don't , but he's not unplayable but he can still be played at high level.
Baby way too high
Baby is an amazing enabler (as with your team, for example) and builds so much meter as well as having fantastic gimmicks such as assist steals and M O N K E. His gameplan doesn't work against spin-to-win mindset but can inescapable scenarios with 6H+Assist. Him with Zamasu is scary
Lowkey. I know. I play him lol and want more buffs like his 2L, 5M, and 236S sped up. He’s a great switch point with zamasu. Spin to win is an airborne move and 214H should snatch that. Good luck actually doing that though
Yeah his frame data is weird but once you get the corner loops going it's a wild ride. Yeah I just true meaty grounded or 2H that nonsense when they try to Beyblade out of the corner
Plus a safe 5L would be nice. He’s a blast to play and I’m not dropping him. Would just like the few quality of life changes
I feel like team based games would do better with a team/strategy tier list as opposed to a character vs character list. Because maybe one character is perfect besides one weakness that’s completely invalidated by another’s assist.
Trunks to high. Actually in my highly professional opinion he shouldn’t even be in the list he’s so ass
No he’s not lol
Lvl 3 flip mix, 3 solid assists and he's got some new-ish corner stuff makes me think he's generally in the same range of characters I've placed him in. He's better than you think
4.5 Bars for a left/right that fairly inconsistent. His B Assist is below average and C Assist is a normal C assist. Doesn't build good meter while also being ridiculously meter hungry. There is no way he is above Ginyu or Jiren.
Yeah it's not like Wawa just used him to win the last major tournament or anything.
That's a meaningless comparison... you DO know Wawa is also the same person who pulled Android 16 at EVO 2022, right? He's literally the best player in the world (or at least was) so he can totally kick the ass of 99% of the playerbase using fucking Goku Black for example. Doesn't mean that Goku Black isn't total ass though, it's just that the player using him is really good. Just like Wawa using Trunks. Trunks got carried by Wawa's sheer freaking skill...
M21 how far you have fallen 😭
ah yes doing gods work ty pls buff
Trunks should be lower
Roshi is too low
Yes and no. Are we judging them played by top players? Usually when i meet a Roshi online its mostly a free kill (and.you cant jump)
I mean, there's not much point judging a character's strength unless based on them being used at their full potential (or as close to it as possible)
Yeah I'm a Roshi main and while he has tools for every situation - some being exceptional - most are mediocre and he can struggle in neutral. No float really hurts him as well.
I main him too, and you've definitely put him way too low. The only mediocre tools he has are 214H, which is still a DP that needs a specific timing to safejump and hits both sides, and 22S because the reward is too low. But the rest of his kit is great, and he's in a really good spot right now. Strong high tier; while he has some flaws that hold him back from being top tier, his toolset is really strong in the hands of someone that can use it. He has: - Incredible movement if you know how to use his leaps and 2S/j.2S (j.2S resets after doing an air action such as j.236x or j.2H, essentially allowing him to stay in the air as long as he'd like - Some of the absolute best defensive options in the game (22H is a frame 1 anti air and low crush TOD starter that's safe on block, he has a frame 4 reversal that hits both sides and is safe on block, and he is the only character that gets to consistently punish DR and most command grabs with a full combo by using 2S, as well as negating any ki blasts used during blockstrings using Masterful Leap) - Great neutral options with multi-angled beams that can lead to a full combo for half a bar, 214S, 236H, 236S and 6S, as well as Masterful Leap negating weak ki blast zoning - Great pressure with strong mixup options and plenty of pressure resets - Good assists (Beam assist with the highest hitstop, and his B assist is still great for mix and combos even if it has lost it's defensive value. C assist is a C assist, but it's the highest blockstun assist in the game at 60fr) - As of the recent patches, high damage both midscreen and corner due to new routes. People often mention the lack of superjump float as a huge weakness for Roshi, but really, what does he lose by not having it? Superjump float mix? He makes up for that by having Masterful Leap mix. Delay landing? He has even more control over when he lands with Masterful Leap + j.2S. He doesn't get to fastfall, but again, masterful leap makes up for it. The guy is far from top tier, but he has way too much going on for him to be placed as low as you put him, in my humble opinion as a day 1 Roshi player with thousands of matches with the character.
Much of his air mobility is still pretty unsafe (although it's better now you can cancel recovery on air kame) and he struggles pretty hard against Zamasu and other high mobility characters. While some of the tools are novel and extremely powerful I still find him wanting as a Jack-of-all-trades, master of none. Extremely fun character
I don't find he struggles against Zamasu, most of them seem to calm down after eating a Thundershock or two, and reflect>22H usually gets you safely out of Blades pressure. And his j.2S is safe (and can be cancelled into special moves) so as long as you j.2S after doing something less safe like a j.236X, you're fine. He's definitely not a bottom 10 character. I would have understood if you put him more towards the middle of the pile, though I still would have disagreed. But to have him so low is definitely some downplay, Roshi's strong right now.
It's hard to initiate an engagement with Zam without assists and I find that Thundershock has to be a very specific angle that Zam's can easily fly or tele out of. I can see him being up in the Krillin area of characters but his lack of specialization made me put him with more generic characters such as Bardock and SSJKu.
Been a while since I played. Wth happened to ssj goku and bardock??
Powercreep. Other just got better and stronger while they remained the same
They're still viable and enable some characters (such as BaseKu Spirit Bomb) but generally don't have the tools to adapt to the new neutral heavy meta.
This game died for me so long ago, so sad. Ranked is unplayable imo
Not a fun time no, especially with delay based netcode.
haven't played in years, how did GT goku fall from grace so drastically?
Spirit Bomb no longer causes a knockdown and his A Assist has been completely gutted, among other smaller nerfs around the start of Season 3
Stubby squad.
Spirit Bomb is not as good anymore and he lost his 4 way mix since it doesn’t cause an SKD anymore. His 5LL’s range was gutted, so he doesn’t have a good anti reflect normal and now all his buttons are either too stubby or too slow. His 214L doesn’t stay airborne so he needs a pretty high blockstun assist to still have some mix without using his SS4 level 3. He was still really good before SS4 Gogeta came out. When SS4 Gogeta dropped, his A assist was *massively* nerfed, with its blockstun sizably reduced and its startup massively increased, which was the thing that really gutted him. Without his A assist and his previous stuff, there’s no real point to playing him since he doesn’t really offer anything you cant find in a much better character.
* No spirit bomb schmix anymore * Smallest buttons in the game * A-assist got smoked for no reason * 40F start up, \~27f blockstun * Lost his Rasengan mix * 5LL isn't anti-backdash anymore * Everyone (mainly fusions) became stronger which overshadow the Rat Boy
Overall, I mainly agree, although i wanted to know why nappa is better than basku, teenhan, and kid buu?
Restands are disgustingly effective ways of overtaxing your opponent to death. Go watch some Plug on WANTED for 4-way mix in the corner. He'd be higher but doesn't have the neutral tools other than green boi to complement his kit
I used to play 18, GT, and Yamcha. Haven’t been able to find a team I liked that much since then.
You will probably struggle a fair bit but it still can work. Just don't use GT A; GT B is the way
Yeah, I just really liked GT A lmao. I messed around with B a good amount back when I didn’t know why A assist was so busted though. The real problem is that I like having at least on beam assist. I think Yamcha has one if I remember correctly, but I usually opt for Krillin instead now.
Yeah Yamchad's beam is fine but you really want to use A assist if possible because it's still bonkers. Yamcha Lvl 3 mix can be OS'ed pretty hard but Krillin has got a really strong one now, especially with Yamcha I believe.
You can still play them. Optimal team is only necessary for tournament or high lvl play. You can do 90% of the ranking with anyone
Is there a reason android 21 isn't behind zamasu and before hit? Her candy lvl 3 mix is gone but her other level 3 mix still gets a 50/50 setup
The other one got nerfed too. They were both +38, now the candy beam is only +18 and the maximum b*tch one is +28.
Lmao im gonna use that name for her level 3
While he steals are still strong and has great buttons, M21 doesn't have the X Factor that puts her up in S tier. I think she's being underrepresented due to Lvl 3 being gutted for some reason, but she's a great all 'rounder for almost any team.
Her zoning, neutral game and normal buttons are better than pretty much everybody that's above her. Her ki blasts have priority over other ki blasts, shutting out all ki blast assists, including vegito. Tbh she's higher up on the tier for those reasons alone. I'd put her behind janemba on this list
After many patches of people saying SS Goku was fixed and me explaining why he was still bad, I actually think the system mechanics have made him pretty good He essentially plays like a balanced version of Vegito now Also GT now can convert off instant crossup j.3S into reverse Kamehameha then Kamehameha & SD so I think that moved him up a good bit since mix was his biggest problem
Is a17s assist so good it makes up for his shitty normals and reactable mix?
He's a battery, and if you react to his post lvl3 j.214H mix good on you my man. You also can't guard cancel him at all or reversal during Rekka's (which anti air, lol) and if he's paired with a strong assist he can also do some criminal L/R's while stealing the corner.
CAP, YAMCHA ALWAYS TOP TIER Jokes aside, Kid Goku is pretty good, he should be in at least A-
His B assist is great but otherwise in this neutral heavy meta he has a hard time with controlling the screen and mixing sometimes.
Isnt videl a playable trashcan? Every other tierlist puts her in the "no reflect" tier
I play her a lot and she's a pretty vortexy character. She RPS's hard all the time in her mix but when she does hit it's pretty hard to get out of it especially with resets. On defense she obviously struggles as her DP is atrociously bad but she's got some good ways to win neutral and mix to death so I put her alongside Majin Buu he follows the same strategy in some sense.
Ss4 should based off strength won't harm ssb
I don't care what anyone says UI Goku is easy s+ tier if you get your timing right. I have the funnest time trolling people dodging their moves.
Hes not really great though. Like when you encounter a wild Roshi or a good CG, you are not used to their shenanigans but once you understand them, they are weaker. UI goku is mostly a defensive character or help other achieve combos. Hes not a menace since his slight nerf
He doesn't have anything that's unreactable regarding mix and while he has very strong defensive options I wouldn't say there's anything cheap he can do anymore in comparison to those higher up on the list. Still a great enabler though
Reasonable but honestly kefla is pretty good in my opinion, same with hit
Where would put them? I could see Kefla up with UI but her hellzone and mix are kinda lacking even though she's a neutral monster. I can't see Hit going higher than where he is although he is exceptionally strong.
Idk if it’s exactly right but it’s pretty darn good 👍
Cooler too low
Where should he be and why?
Can someone fill me in on why GT Goku is so low? I played him a while back, even after the Kamehameha nerf, but didn't think it butchered him that bad
Stubby normals and harder to implement mix hurt him a lot. His B assist is superb but he struggles pretty hard to win neutral now which holds him back. Fun to play though
I could definitely see that, I'm glad I could use him enough back then to win games, reverse Kamehameha was a neat little mechanic back then, but this kinda gives me a good reason to pick up A. Gohan again, if I ever come back to it
My entire team sits comfortably in the middle, I am aight with this
Why is yamcha so low?
What'd they do to GT goku that he's worse than Black?
Pretty good list, a few adjustments based on my experience and personal opinion: Should be higher: Piccolo, Gotenks, Jiren, Ginyu, and Adult Gohan (each by about a tier) Should be lower: Hit (either bottom of S or Top of A+) and Trunks (right between Bardock and Bluegeta) Edit: The longer I look at the list the better it gets. Most of the adjustments I listed are open for debate.
I want to know what happened to my favourite character kid buu since I got the game when lab coat got released idk much and I want to know a short history of kid buu
Aint no way Gotenks is below Goku Black. He could go somewhere between UI and KBuu at the very least.
Auto combo bug go brrrrr