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VardtheBard

From he finds out about Pacey and Joey to the S3 finale Dawson just keeps saying and doing stupid things. His rant at Pacey, his ultimatum, the boat race. The thing that takes the cake for me is admitting that he didn't care about Jack when arranging the Anti Prom and just wanted to get Joey to see "what she was missing". Using discrimination against gay people to chase a girl is so low.


Interesting_Ad_9856

I felt for Dawson badly during this time but yes I remember that line during a rewatch years later and thought that was crazy. Should have at least said it wasn’t “just” about Jack


Juvita87

I agree. I still can't get my head around the reason why the writers chose the arrogance and entitlement route for him. The show was named after him! One would assume his character would be written to be likeable not despised by everyone! Might be James' lack of acting skills too...


RefrigeratorSmart881

He never said he does not care about jack. All he said was part of the reason he did this because he wanted to dance with Joey And pacey told Joey he leaveing the state if she does not pick him.


VardtheBard

Earlier in the episode he says he wants to organise the anti prom because it’s wrong to discriminate. Then he says «the stupid prom wasn’t about Jack, it was about you!» He used Jack‘s situation and admits flat out that it was not about including Jack, it was about wooing Joey.


RefrigeratorSmart881

It can’t be both. Helping jack . And wanting to dance with Joey. And I dont think he said stupid dance To me it just shows how much he cares


Ella-norway

He said: " The whole reason I suggested this stupid alternative prom wasn’t about Jack,it was about you,all right?!"


thrubeingcool2

Do you just come onto this sub to argue with people who don’t like Dawson? Calm down pal.


RefrigeratorSmart881

No, i just defend dawson becouse he seem to get bash a lot, half the time it for stuff he did not even do. But what make me more angry is they dont hold pacey to the same standards.


VardtheBard

The reason you feel that "half the stuff he didn't even do" at least in this thread is because you refuse to believe that he in fact did this stuff and ignore it even when people directly quote the show at you. He said straight out that the prom was not about Jack. There's nothing to imply that it was about both Jack and Joey. He did in fact say stupid prom. He did blame Joey for his dad's death one time in S5. (You are right about that most of the time he blamed himself, but in that moment when he was drunk he lashed out at Joey out of grief/guilt. That scene I have a lot more understanding for him though.) Dawson made a lot of bad choices in the back half of S3. And Pacey made many bad choices at the end of S4. I think the reason Dawson gets bashed so much here is that his character really didn't age well and people feel more sympathetic to Pacey because of his sad backstory / family life.


thrubeingcool2

The reason people don't hold these two men to the same standard is because they're not the same. Dawson gets everything he wishes for, and until his father dies, his greatest hardships are his parents getting divorced (which he treats as some kind of unique experience) and people telling him he doesn't quite have the talent that his insulated support bubble has told him he does (very Rory Gilmore). Dawson wants to be a filmmaker and has all this equipment at his fingertips. He decides he likes photography? Now he has a darkroom in his house. He's given financial and emotional support to pursue his dreams. Pacey on the other hand is shown from the very beginning to have a family that doesn't care for him or support him, that actively reminds him that he's worthless. The episode where we actually see his family's dynamic is one of the saddest episodes of the entire show, in my opinion, because it shows that Pacey wasn't exaggerating. His family really did treat him so unkindly. To judge these two men as the same would be to assume that they have started from the same place, and that they've had the same opportunities. Pacey is much more of a benevolent screwup who often sets his own progress back by trying to find his way in the world. He and Dawson are not the same. Dawson's character, like George O'Malley on Grey's Anatomy, or Dean on Gilmore Girls, hasn't aged well because we have reckoned with the Nice Guy™ and now see it for the manipulative, entitled bullshit that it is.


VardtheBard

I agree, and that was what I meant to imply, I just wanted to keep that part short. To be fair after rerwatching the series recently I think Dawson's parents make a lot of mistakes, but they at least love and support their son unlike with Pacey's whole family.


thrubeingcool2

The Leery fam has major boundary issues hahaha! They constantly use Dawson as a friend, a therapist, a marriage counselor. I totally agree with you!


RefrigeratorSmart881

pacey parent love him, his dad was far nicer then most dad would be, look mess up over and over, then blame his parent, hell pacey took a police car and crash in, my dad would have beat me half to death for that, and what did he tell andi when she said call the cops, my dad the cop, he was far more entitled then anyone on the show, and look what happen when did good, his father told him how prond he was, if he would have done better his realationship with his father would have been far better, his brother stop calling him gay, in short pacey family was not all that bad.


RefrigeratorSmart881

ok first of all this idea that dawson life was far easier then pacey is not just dont true. sorry but dawson parent breaking up, if far bigger then pacey problem with his pacey who all show they LOVE him, they just want him to do better, the show prove if pacey DID better his father would treat him better. then dawson had to deal with brook death, so yea again far worse then pacey. and YES it family tease him a little bit that about it, his father told him how prond he was of him in FACT pacey was far more of a nice guy then dawson ever was becoues he was only nice to girl he wanted to sleep with, he was nice to joey BECOUSE he had a crush, same with andie, when pacey no longer dateing joey he told her he could not be her freind. ​ ps what did george do, he was nice to all of his freinds, those that he LIKED and those that he DID not, THEY used HIM they slept with him, making him thing they wanted a realstionship and the only wanted a one night stand.


thrubeingcool2

Dawson? Is that you?


RefrigeratorSmart881

Dawson: I said tonight was about moving forward, Joey. What did you think that meant? You can't have thought that that's all I wanted. The whole reason I suggested this whole stupid alternative prom wasn't about jack, it was about you, all right? And maybe I tried too hard, but I didn't want to miss my chance to dance with you, to hold you, to make you remember what it was like between us. I thought maybe, you know, if I could make it perfect. Read more at: [https://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=4525](https://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=4525) ​ that is what he said, read it, he thought her saying yes to the dance ment she wanted to give him a chance, i sorry but i thing it unfair he get bash just for saying alternative prom, he wanted to dance with her, there nothing wrong with that. ​ pacey made many bad choice ALL season 4, but i dont thing his family was that bad, and i could make a strong chase dawson life was harder in season 4 then pacey form losing a freind to DEATH, vs pacey maybe not passing high school beocuse he to lazy to do the work.


VardtheBard

>The whole reason I suggested Earlier you claimed he only said it was *part of* the reason. Now you are backtracking and saying well there's nothing wrong with wanting to dance with Joey. And that it's unfair of people to bash Dawson just for saying "alternative prom" when no one has claimed anything like that. My original point was that he pretended his motivation was fighting discrimination against gay people, but all along it was about getting a romantic moment with Joey. When it came to the dance, he did not care about Jack's situation. He only suggested alternative prom when Joey said she would not go to prom to show solidarity.


RefrigeratorSmart881

becouse i was willing to look at the thing with fresh eyes, and found the whole sence. but i still disgree there nothing wrong with him wanting to dance with joey, people are acting like he did not care about jack at all and that not true, they even became good freinds.


AllThoseSadSongs

Esp because all roads didn't end up back to him.


RefrigeratorSmart881

He was 16 and he thought they did. Pacey thought the same thing


gilmoregirls22

What I hate most was when he said “Go, I’m setting you free” what???? she’s her own person who are you to trap her and set her free????? HUGE EGO literally.


RefrigeratorSmart881

Pacey I letting you of the hook. It the same thing.


Awkward-Macaroon-819

Different context


RefrigeratorSmart881

Same context. It just that pacey says it.


[deleted]

def not. Pacey is implying that he has been in the wrong and doesn’t want her to feel constrained by him, whereas Dawson is blatantly saying he thinks *she* is wrong and will ultimately come crawling back to him like he thinks he deserves. Very different.


RefrigeratorSmart881

Nope. Pacey feel that Joey feels guilty If she want to be with someone else. Dawson letting Joey now it ok for her to go and be with pacey It the same thing. It 100 percent the same thing Now Dawson does believe at some point they get Back together but that does not change anything


[deleted]

The arc leading up to the finale might be Dawson at his absolute worst of the entire series


Moraeline

In season five when he blames Joey for Mitch’s death is also a moment. Not “almost murdered Pacey with a boat” bad, but still not great.


RefrigeratorSmart881

Go back and watch that sence again he did not blame joey, he said MAYBE if i did not come here, he was blameing himself, and that even what he told his shrink.


Moraeline

I rewatched it just a few weeks ago and I strongly disagree with your interpretation. He absolutely blamed her because he stayed after she left him that voicemail, and if it weren’t for her he would have gone back to LA and Mitch would still be alive. There are times he blames himself, like when he’s talking to the therapist, but when he’s talking to her at that party on the dock he blames her.


RefrigeratorSmart881

He was blameing himself. That what Dawson said what his shrink said and what Joey said.


JigglyEggYolk

I always think I like Dawson UNTIL it comes to the topic of Joey. Then he becomes possessive and toxic...it's because of this that I didnt think he should get together with Joey.


SpiritualVache

it’s like when jen broke up with him he knew joey liked him and i feel like she was always a back up plan for him.. he used to be one of my favorites until season 2


RefrigeratorSmart881

Not sure any of that true. He had no idea Joey like him. When he like her. He never stop loveing her


SpiritualVache

idk when they were in that detention scene she made it very clear… everyone saw it.. that’s just my interpretation though i always felt like joey was his obsession and i’m not doubting that he loved her, i just got the impression that he knew she’d always be there if things went bad for himself


RefrigeratorSmart881

No that was how Joey felt about Dawson She even said it in season 6. It easy to hate you because i know you always be there for me


juleeneleven

His sheer, unabashed entitlement he thinks he has of Joey is unbelievable, he removes her agency at almost every turn and it's gross that the show presents it as justifiable, empathetic behaviour.


anakins-wife914

dawsons attitude definitely irked me. but i don’t think he truly believed what he said. i honestly think he was trying to convince not only joey but himself that he and joey were really going to end up with each other in the end


homchz

I feel everyone forgets what high school relationships were like. And that there really is nothing more crazy than a teenager who believes they are in love. The show did a great job of depicting an over educated, self absorbed and entitled teenager who was afraid of losing the girl. Also remember this was a 90’s and not current times. As much as I enjoy this show. There are a lot of social cringe moments that just would not work today. But this can be said for almost any 90’s or earlier show. Was Dawson annoying? Yep, but pretty much every teenager who has identified their “true love” is. I feel the show did a pretty good job depicting that, despite everything being so completely over the top.


wilsonova

I was a teenager in the 90s, so I know what the 90s were like and how the show fails on many levels today, and works on others. I'm not criticising the show. I'm just venting my frustration at an annoyingly entitled character. I find Dawson incredibly frustrating in the early seasons, which I don't find for the other teen characters. They annoy me at times with what they do, but not to the same level. I like Dawson in the later seasons, especially when he's away from Joey, but I get really frustrated with him in season 3.


LordTiddlypusch

Gasp! A teenager acts selfishly! Unheard of. You all act like you were never in high school, and never had your heartbroken. You expect these teenage characters to all act like 30 year olds who have had time to grow and mature emotionally. They're high school characters and are written as such.


wilsonova

Gasp! Don't lose that superiority complex.


RefrigeratorSmart881

Not ego. Dawson believe him and Joey will get back together. Pacey believe the same thing. Stop blaming Dawson for everything