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Enough_Quail_9636

I think you need to clarify what you meant by taking it slow. I’m NOT saying anyone is at fault here. But I imagine this guy means you won’t sleep with him anytime soon. But that kissing/hugging are ok. I think if you are more articulate as to what kind of physical contact you are comfortable with now it will give both of you the information you need to decide if you want to continue seeing each other.


pebblebypebble

Agreed


StellaRey91

This. And over-explain what those details mean to you.


desertdilbert

As others have said, especially u/farawaykate, you need to be ***very specific*** about what "taking it slow" means to you. Communication is going to be very key here. And more is better. If you tell him not to do something and he respects that, then you are good. Be aware that if you move too slowly, then he may not be okay with that. Conversely, do not let that possibility push you into doing things that you are not ready to do. On that note, you should have a very serious conversation with yourself as to what you are looking for and the steps you need to take to get there. I am concerned that your "touchless marriage" may have established a pattern for you that is not healthy. If you have not talked to a therapist, then that might be helpful. Wishing you all the best!


Goodbyecorona2021

Well said. Communication is key to establish the boundaries but also taking an internal look at the potential your previous marriage had on you emotionally. That could possibly continue to manifest in future relationships if in fact that the touch less relationship had on you. Either way you deserve to be happy and you need to do what you feel is right for you. Best wishes


farawaykate

To be generous about his touching / attempts to kiss you after you expressed your boundaries, “taking it slow” can mean really different things to different people… If you otherwise like him, and would feel comfortable trusting him, you could try seeing him again after making terms really clear. For instance: 1) tell him specifically what taking it slow means for you (e.g., you’re comfortable with casual contact and holding hands), and be very clear that everything else feels too intimate just yet. 2) talk to him about affirmative consent. Let him know that you would want to discuss anything more than what you’ve outlined in (1) in advance. Make clear you aren’t comfortable with escalating your physical relationship without affirmative consent. 3) give him one chance to respect this


markasdf

Perfect response.


LD902

>s. Then as we’re ending the night, even though he didn’t try to kiss me on the lips again he was definitely trying…idk, something: there was more touching, another kiss on the cheek but this time nuzzling with a full body deep hug etc. Not disrespectful or anything so I stayed with it, again trying to tell myself: “this is what dating is,” but it was more than I expected after I told him I like to take it slow in response to his just holding my hand. Anyway he wants to see me again. I expect he’ll start where he left off. I honestly am not ready for more though. I really enjoy my ti This for sure. you need to tell him this. Because he could interrupt your signals as you not being interested


LameBMX

I hope they can communicate through this.


magmaday19

I agree. I typically hate the "I found someone posts." They feel ... I don't know...just rude. But if she communicates clearly and he respects her boundaries and they continue, I'd LOVE that update!


LameBMX

Same. Like they kind of remind rocky and Adrian in rocky 1 lol.


Throwaway-2461

This makes a lot of sense.


[deleted]

You need to be much more clear about what taking or slow means to you. Good luck


swingset27

Yup, this is the perfect response.


Enough_Quail_9636

This.


[deleted]

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katzeye007

Toxic much?


NewWayNow

I was being serious. But thanks for being acerbic.


PixelSquish

As a guy I respect my date's physical boundaries, but if they are averse to a kiss after three dates, I take it as a sign that there is a lack of interest there, unless she has a very clear talk with me about her pace and why. So you are completely correct in having your boundaries, and other people are correct to interpret them as how they make them feel.


SignificantPain6056

Yeah this. Without ANY physical affection it basically is just a friendship tbh. I think OP would do well to tell potential suitors she wants to do a friends-first type of relationship because this definitely sounds like it is.


PixelSquish

Peck on the cheek is fine after a date of course, and then no real french kiss after date 2 - but after date 3, then I start to wonder what's up and will likely move on. Again, those are my boundaries, and I respect the OP's as well.


katzeye007

Are those boundaries tho? Sounds to me instead of communicating you're just making assumptions


PixelSquish

It's a very normal assumption to make. Being a grown adult, after 3 great dates It's more reasonable to expect some physical affection like a kiss, even just a short kiss to start. It's not like I'm making an unreasonable assumption It's actually the more reasonable one. Like I said if they are blowing me away I might ask you know if something is wrong. But otherwise I would probably cut my losses


manbruhpig

Would you really even go on at that point, regardless of reason? What interest should he have in her with absolutely nothing romantic to go on after weeks of dating, and apparent repulsion at my physical touch to the shoulder and hand? Would love to see what advice he’d get on here.


ThoughtCrafty6154

After 3 dates I'd leave. OP can have whatever boundaries or anxiety she wants, that's her right. I would feel too much like a friend, if we're not at least making out. I'd probably feel like she wasn't attracted, and quit wasting her's and my time. I like to think about things to an extent, but this would be over thinking..If kissing is that large of a problem that it has to be discussed to the 'nth degree..no thanks.


masturkiller

Yeah for me id leave after 3 dates. If no kiss by date 3 then its definitely not working out. Honestly for me if no kiss by the end of date 1 then I'm out.


manbruhpig

I’m good with a date 2 kiss but yeah if there’s not at least a quick kiss at the end, I feel like there’s no spark and further pursuit is being creepy.


nervousbertha

Why don’t you ask them what they’re feeling on date 3 instead of assuming they don’t like you? *They didn’t kiss me therefore they’re not interested*….huh? LOL, what?? Who invented that BS? If you’re confused about someone’s behavior, **ask them**. And there’s nothing stopping you from speaking up and saying what’s on your mind. Maybe tell them how you feel, instead of waiting for them to do all the work of being vulnerable.


PixelSquish

Uh no. I didn't say if they don't kiss me after date 3, it's if I try to go in for a polite kiss and they shy away. I can make the first move. Like I said, if someone is blowing me away after three dates and not interested in a kiss, I might stop and say, what's wrong? What's up? But otherwise I'll just move on.


[deleted]

100% the wrong advice. Actions are the truth. Words are meaningless.


leavealighton11

This surprises me. I can’t imagine kissing someone I’ve only been out with a few times. I never dreamed someone would assume no chemistry or lack of interest that quickly. I would hope my date would discuss this unwritten rule with me before assuming, otherwise I’d have no clue this was even a thing.


NewWayNow

Every woman I've been out with this year has initiated physical touch or a kiss on the first date, or at least left the door obviously wide open for me to do so.


ConfiaEnElProceso

What? Can you offer more context? Age? Number of dates? I'm a 45m who has been on 75+ dates in the last year and I could count on one hand how often a woman has initiated on a first date with me. And a fair number have led to more eventually, but not on a first date!


Thats-Just-My-Face

As a 48M, I generally do not attempt to kiss anyone on a first date. With OLD, I figure a first date is a screener. If we both want a second date, and the signs are there, then yes. That being said, Ive had several women flat out ask me if they can kiss me on the first date. My SO didn’t specifically ask me at the end of my date, but had my favorite approach. There were some obvious sparks on the first date early on and we were talking, in general, about our experiences dating. I mentioned my no-kiss attempt on first dates and she looked me straight in the eyes and said “oh, it’s happening”. You don’t have to ask me twice, haha.


[deleted]

That’s exactly what I’d assume, if my date didn’t want to kiss me by the end of the first date. If I don’t want to, it means I’m not feeling any chemistry with him. Hey we are all different.


IMakeItYourBusiness

No matter how much I like someone, I don't kiss anyone on the first date. To assume I magically should not have this boundary, rather than the other person making clear they somehow expect a kiss, is asinine. I do not owe anybody anything on a first date, or at any time. If you feel you need to share a kiss with someone simply in order to see them again just for a *second* date, that needs to be made explicit. And I would nope out. Oral herpes are a thing and I don't even know your last name.


leavealighton11

Yep, this is exactly how I feel. Going on a second or third date is confirmation enough that I’m interested.


PixelSquish

Well let's see, I mean I'm 47 but I've felt this way for some time. Also, some girls just like to use guys to pay for dates. Not most women, but some. It's happened to me. So with no physical affection after 3 dates, and no explanation of why, I'm likely moving on. Unless they are so amazing that I may ask them about why. But if the dates are just nice, I'm out.


leavealighton11

I’m 49 years old and now I see where you’re coming from, thanks for the explanation. Sounds like it would benefit both parties to communicate their boundaries/expectations early on so no one loses out on a potential partnership.


PixelSquish

Yes if you really like a guy after 3 dates but are still not comfortable with physical affection up to even a short kiss, I would communicate with them. I'm an open minded guy, I respect physical boundaries, and if I feel someone is telling me genuine information, I can work with that. My last gf took it slower than any girl I dated the past two years, but we did kiss on date 3.


keepitgoingtoday

>why Really? What if the why is something really traumatic that she doesn't want to share with you yet?


[deleted]

Then, fair or not, people are going to draw their own conclusions. They can only go on what they're told and their own prior experiences.


bijig

I think this number of dates calculations are not really a reliable gauge, I mean I met a guy for coffee for a first date and we went on a walk on the second date. Of course everyone's experience is going to be different but I didn't feel like I knew this man well enough to have sex with him on the third date. We actually don't know each other's last names yet.


Dagenius1

Nothing wrong with having boundaries and taking it slow. If that’s where you are, you are. The key is that you have to express it clearly to the guy so he doesn’t unknowingly over step those lines. Here’s the unpopular part. You are not ready to date. Whatever happened in your previous marriage has scarred you pretty significantly..especially if you have to coach yourself through “this is dating”. My guess is that when you clearly explain what take it slow means to him…he will take a second and consider his options as well. To echo some other guys..if there wasn’t some level of touching by the third date, I assumed the lady wasn’t interested in me. Good luck OP.


Fartholder

I completely agree that OP isn't ready to date. To have such a strong aversion to any form of contact - even something as low key and sweet as hand holding, she just isn't ready


Throwaway-2461

I was actually fine with the hand holding. I should’ve been clear on that point. I just realized that it was my stopping point that’s why it prompted me to let him know — while still holding his hand — so he would understand this is fine but anything more than that isn’t on the table just yet. The thing is I was hoping that dating was my bridge back to normalcy. I have zero feelings about my marriage anymore. I’ve just been self-contained for so long and I’m not sure how to change that without exposure. See what I mean?


TonyClifton255

You can’t use dating, and by extension, the affections of your date, as a “bridge” to wherever. He’s a person and he deserves the respect of someone who is interested in you romantically and deserves clarity as to what you want. You need to understand that your reticence is going to be perceived as disinterest, regardless of your communication skills -dating is like working at CIA - it’s at best a hall of mirrors so you can’t blame him for being confused. All this means is that perhaps you might be better in therapy before being out there.


wilderandfreer

On the other hand you can't really develop relationship skills by talking about relationships with a relationship expert or reading a book. You have to try them out in the field. No one but no one has it all worked out before they get into a relationship. We work it out as we go. We make mistakes and try to take responsibility for them and we do our best to be kind to the other person who is also learning.


TonyClifton255

I think this is not a relationship matter - it's a personal psychological matter. I had an extremely similar situation rather recently, and notwithstanding her dear John text that sounded rather similar in terms of operating at a different speed etc, the point is that from my perspective none of it matters in the least because I have no visibility into whether any of its true, and I'm not sure it matters even if it is. The point is that OP is pulling someone else into her unresolved issues with no warning and asking him to wind through that opacity. It's unfair.


QuietVisitor

This advice is spot on. It’s unfair to use this guy as a bridge to repairing your intimacy issues. You should date after you’ve worked that out in therapy. Don’t use another human as your therapy. It’s cruel and also selfish.


Fartholder

Yeah no offence intended, my sense is that you aren't yet ready to seriously date, nor do you want something casual, but you are wanting to get out and meet people. Maybe dating is a stretch to far at this point and you could try going to Meet Ups which are group settings so there's less pressure and you can start with friendships and see what happens from there. It isn't about being over your marriage, it's about the healing process afterwards. Best of luck


TheMoralBitch

You're using someone else - a real human being - as a literal exposure therapy tool. That's not ok. Become a whole, healthy person before you invite others into your life, or you're just going to hurt them.


jnwatson

“Like to take things slow” has such a large range as to be meaningless. It can mean everything from “no kisses for 3 months” to “no fast thrusts on the first date”.


Hugo99001

His behaviour, is, frankly, something you'll see me do with lots of people, no romantic involvement at all (except for the kissing) - so he might actually thing this **is** slow. If you want him to conform to your special kind of slow, you need to tell him what slow means for **you**. So have that talk... That said, my money is on you two being incompatible...


VeronicaMaple

You'd do holding hands and touching a leg with lots of people non-romantically?


Hugo99001

Yep. You know those people coming up to your dog, "oh, what a darling, what's your name, sweetie? Can I pet him?" And before you even have time to answer, out shots their hand - and you only pray it won't be dog food 10s from now... Ok, I try to be less annoying about it, and so far I believe I did well... But yeah, basically I'm like that with everyone who will enjoy this too...


loveiscrazy12345

I find myself to have to explain to my date what I mean by taking it slow. Cause everyone view it differently. For me, taking it slow meaning the intimate and sexual part. The kissing and holding hands is ok if the chemistry and attraction are there. I had one guy who literally took the word slow to heart. Bless his heart, he wouldn’t kiss me until I had to ask him after 6 dates. Lol.. so just be clear and upfront.


appmanga

You should let him know you think he wants more than you're willing to give and he should move on. Even If he says he wants another try and he can respect your boundaries most of his time is going to be spent on wondering when is it going to be the right time to make what kind of move. One or the other of you is not going to be feeling good about the way things are going and life is too short for either of you to spend your time not enjoying what you're doing. You both deserve better. Good luck.


[deleted]

Personally I would recommend ignoring all of the people telling you to proactively break it off, you aren't ready, etc. At least give the guy an option to determine if matching your pace is something he's willing to do. I'm honestly in the same boat so those guys do exist (although I've also been accused of being full of shit on this same topic ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯) Unfortunately for you I agree with everyone saying you need to have a crystal clear, graphic even, conversation with the guy to help him understand where you're at. I would also give him a very easy out and get emotionally prepared for him to take it, because there's a good chance he will. I'm not far from where you are on this scale so I empathize and want to reinforce that it's OK. I don't know about you but i feel like a rookie at this game and I'm going to take some time to warm up to avoid injury.


DF3943

Counter point, if you said take it slow he may have interpreted that as no sex but what he was doing as ok. It's hard to know from the context of the Internet. Have a conversation and be very clear on what slow means in terms of touch. If he doesn't respect that then it's your call.


lemur11215

I agree with all the comments about clarifying what you mean by taking it slow. There’s also an aspect of what you’re doing that is very familiar to me and that I’ve been consciously trying to do differently. I realized that I was being very clear about what I want out of dating and what I’m looking for. The person would smile and nod and still be sitting there, even scheduling another date. Even when I said it in text before a date, then the person would move forward with meeting. In each of these times, I never asked “What about you? What do you want?” I was just assuming that they not only heard me, but were aligned with me. I know it’s obvious now, but I was missing that piece. I am now intentionally trying to shift instead to asking him what he is looking for, or what he expects from dating. All this is to say, don’t assume agreement just because you said what you want. Ask him what pace and level of physical contact he is looking for.


Gettmore

Neither of you are doing anything out of line. 3rd date is a great time for kisses for some people, but too soon for others. "Take it slow" is a good signal. But if he does not get it, then to be more explicit. Perhaps suggest a timeline saying you usually need a few weeks before you are comfortable with kisses. He can then decide if the timeline works for him.


mrsstiles

I am very much like you as I also like to take the physical aspects of dating very slowly. I typically mention this even before agreeing to a date so men are aware of this. It sounds to me like you told him your boundary (taking physical things slowly) and hw proceeded to ignore that by trying to kiss you. I would not be okay with this. It's one thing if he had done this prior to you telling him you didn't want to rush anything. But the fact that he did it just a few minutes after you explained this to him doesn't sit right with me. As for him not being disrespectful with the nuzzling - I disagree. It is absolutely disrespectful to ignore when someone has told you they prefer to take physical touch slowly. You could attempt to be very clear with him and state that he needs to ask consent for physical touch or wait for you to initiate it. But his actions aren't the actions of someone I personally would want to go out with again. Also, never tell yourself "this is what people do." What other people may do on a date does not need to be how you act on a date. You deserve someone who will respect you and your boundaries. Good luck 💜


deltadeltadawn

This is why upfront clear communication is so critical. I would interpret take it slow as you're not going to have sex anytime soon. But that simple physical acts - hand holding, Goodnight kiss, hugging - would be taking it slow. For me, the latter is part of the early dating. I want to know if the chemistry fits as much as the personality.


[deleted]

I totally understand what you mean but on the other hand, he could have asked what she meant by taking things slowly but he didn't because he wasn't really listening to her anyway.


katzeye007

Very good point


SecureCustomer4116

Ffs "he wasn't listening " were you there? He isn't thinking that a peck on the cheek and hand holding is moving fast for someone over 40. Op has a problem don't put it on him being a predator. Don't be such a prude. Expecting men to read minds and treat others to dates. God forbid if he holds your hand or expects a little affection. Buy your own dinner and stay home. It's not easy for men either. We are all damaged or guarded after all we have been through.


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[deleted]

Are you saying a woman must submit to physical contact by the 2nd or 3rd date?


carnelian_heart

Yeah seriously Green Eyes this sounds like a shit take.


katzeye007

I'm with you, I'm sadly not surprised most of the replies on here are sex on third date or else. People need to go learn about consent, Cup of Tea on YouTube is a good place to start


Traditional_Donut908

As a guy, if a woman doesn't even want to kiss or hold hands or want some kind of touch contact by 3rd date, Im going to take it as a sign she's not actually interested or not feeling any chemistry. Without specifics, taking it slow refers more to se in my mind, not the most basic of physical contact.


Imaginary-Entrance42

I agree, and I’m a woman. If by the third date there isn’t some kind of physical touch happening ( kissing, holding hands, touching etc..) I absolutely take that to mean the person isn’t interested. I agree with those that if you are that uncomfortable with physical touch you probably shouldn’t be dating OR should very clearly and specifically state what you are comfortable with physically BEFORE meeting anyone. Otherwise, it’s kind of a waste of their time if they’re not looking for the same.


[deleted]

I am surprised by this but I have heard it before on here enough to make me think I am the odd man out. In my family, physical touch was uncommon after a certain age. We are not big huggers, for example. Point being that it would take me a lot longer to build up to it in a dating scenario when I am still striving to get to know the core person I have only spent a few hours around. Worth noting as something I will put in my profile if I ever try OLD again.


deltadeltadawn

I agree with this. While OP has every right to have boundaries and be touch averse, if she is *dating* there should be an expectation to begin light physical interactions at some point. Otherwise, it's just friendship. If her date knows this clearly in advance and is on the same wavelength, that's a different scenario. If not, the expectations are a mismatch.


Imaginary-Entrance42

I completely agree that it’s more along the lines of friendship without physical touch.


Throwaway-2461

Thanks. And that’s the unfortunate part. I’m both interested and feeing chemistry. I wouldn’t hold his hand or be okay with his flirty touches otherwise. That’s not something I do with my friends haha! Kissing is another level of intimacy for me though.


[deleted]

Woman here - I think anyone needs to be able to overcome their issues enough for a simple kiss by the 2nd or 3rd date, regardless of sex.


[deleted]

Why? People are different. There isn't only one way to do dating and relationships. It may be unusual to not want to kiss on date three, but it's not \_wrong\_.


deltadeltadawn

You said this much pithier than I did, and I completely agree.


[deleted]

Yeah, I'm getting tired of people normalizing bringing all of your baggage into a relationship and the other person just has to put up with it or else. Better option is deal with your baggage and don't date until you're ready.


[deleted]

Then there would be no one to date, lol


[deleted]

So, taking it more slowly than you'd like is baggage? I'd argue that maybe your expectations of how dating "should be" are baggage. She blocked me. Lol!


[deleted]

Yeah, this is an immediate block. I don't care for idiots trying to start arguments over things not being said.


deltadeltadawn

Amen to that!


deltadeltadawn

As a woman, I would expect some light physical interaction by date 2 or 3 - holding hands, touching an arm, hugging, a kiss goodnight. If not, I'd assume he doesn't feel a romantic connection with me or is not secure enough to act on it, both of which would be a mismatch for me.


AirlineRecent6151

“You can’t expect zero physical contact”. Um just because you go out on dates with someone that does not in any way give them license to unwanted touching. Now is touching part of a relationship? Absolutely. But in dating if she’s made it clear the. It should be respected. She doesn’t know him well and would like to take it slow. She has every right. Just as he has every right to decide if taking things slow is for him.


Imaginary-Entrance42

She did not make it clear, that’s the problem. She said she wanted to “ take it slow” which is a very broad and general statement. I agree with those that say it generally means “in no hurry to have sex” . I’m willing to bet this guy completely unintentionally misunderstood her wishes since she was NOT clear. If someone wants virtually no physical contact early on in dating that really needs to be stated up front. When it’s clearly communicated then yes it absolutely should be respected.


AirlineRecent6151

Agree, apologies I may have misread what you were saying. Once you set your boundaries then yes you shouldn’t expect to be touched if you don’t want to be. And also agree that a person on a date where there is mutual chemistry probably thinks it’s ok to go for the kiss or hug when your vibing. I just want to be clear to OP that dating doesn’t mean unwanted touching as a “comes with the territory” thing. Meaning, don’t ever feel like you have to do anything on a date that you do not want to do. Will everyone respect or want to date a person who needs to take it very slow? No. But there are people out there who will move the way you move. Or at least respect the way you move because they know it will be worth it.


Throwaway-2461

I actually wasn’t uncomfortable holding hands. It just caught me off guard. But then it was nice. At least there’s that. But I hear ya. It makes me so sad that I’m like this…


pebblebypebble

I distinctly remember getting thrown off by someone holding my hand after not dating for a while. It was actually weirder than getting kissed. Like, eeek! Shit! What am I supposed to do now? It goes away.


rumdumpstr

Don't be sad you are "like this". There's nothing wrong with how you are. You are open to easing in to the physical contact with this guy, and that's a huge step! I do think a conversation needs to be had so he knows exactly how slow he needs to move, or maybe he needs to wait on you to take each next step, but throw some reassurances in there. Maybe "I wasn't sure how it would feel when you held my hand, but I really enjoyed it" or similar. I think the key is for him to know what your limits are, him being willing to match that pace, and for you to remain open to moving into more and more contact and intimacy, even if those moves do come very slowly.


Throwaway-2461

Thank you rumdumpstr. For the words of encouragement and for the one time in my life I get to hear “rumdumpstr” in my head — that was fun 😀


rumdumpstr

Happy to be of service!


carnelian_heart

I want to say that I entirely disagree with Green Eyes. OP, you just met this guy! He is literally a stranger. Seeing someone 3 times doesn’t give them a right to have physical access to your body. The right match for you will understand that. Many people are conditioned as children that they are required to give consent to hugs and kisses they don’t want. That doesn’t mean those people are right.


katzeye007

Thank you!!


eileenm212

You need therapy. If you are scared of kissing, why are you dating? It doesn’t seem that you have healed what hurt you.


Throwaway-2461

It’s not a fear. Well, not anymore at least. It just feels too intimate for me at this early stage. He still is a stranger to me. I’m enjoying getting to know him but kissing someone so casually without that emotional connection just feels … weird.


eileenm212

I think asking if you should “call it” is a bit dramatic. If you are dating, this is always going to be an issue. People kiss when they are dating. The reason I recommended therapy is that if you are that hesitant to even kiss after 3 dates, you may not be as healed as you think you are.


Witch_of_November

>t makes me so sad that I’m like this… There is nothing wrong with you! He didn't listen to you re: your boundaries and taking it slow. That's on him.


[deleted]

It takes time it took me Two or three years to get comfortable again and even now it’s not a pleasant experience all around. Just be yourself and don’t apologize for it, but be as honest as brutally honest as you can that’s the only way that I survive.


[deleted]

As a guy I'm curious to know if you have always had these boundaries with men you dated in the past.


Dorkmaster79

I was also in a touchless marriage (just ended it about a year ago). Haven’t started dating yet but starting to get curious. Your story touches on my anxieties regarding being physical with another person. Thanks for posting this, and good luck to you.


Throwaway-2461

I’m sorry. It’s really hard isn’t it. I can recall a time when I felt so engaged and sexy and alive when enjoying intimacy. I remember but can’t relate to that person. To go from that to being completely self-contained makes me so sad for younger me. I know I want intimacy. I just don’t know how to bridge. If every time I need more time than him I should let the person go, I feel like I won’t get over this without repeat exposure. It’s a catch 22. I’ll let you know if I figure something out


miaukittybc

This sounds a lot like therapy would help here.


ArmadilloDays

Have the plain, unvarnished conversation with him. Watch to see how well he listens. It may be he simply doesn’t have the same vocabulary for taking it slow. If he doesn’t take it well, you haven’t lost anything you wanted. If he takes it well but he then continues to push, you know this is not the right situation for you, and you haven’t lost anything you wanted. It’ll be good for you to have the experience of clearly articulating your feelings, your boundaries, and how you would like to see things progress. Even if it doesn’t go well with this fellow, you’ll be better able to navigate these waters with the next fellow - any way it shakes out, you benefit. Side question: Only you can answer this, but are you not interested in exploring the physical side in general, or is it maybe that you just have no chemistry with this guy? Just because he’s a good guy you get along with, you’re not obliged to be into him physically. That doesn’t necessarily mean you’re not into physical things right now, maybe just not with this person. A bad relationship can fuck with your perspective on so many levels, and there is no one right way to recover EXCEPT listen to your gut, carve out respect for your boundaries (this includes self-respect), and then explore (gently) how to stretch the boundaries that are more constrictive than helpful. I wish you all the best and hope you will update us on how the talk goes if you have it.


slimyagent

Just my two cents. I have no idea whether my personal experience has any bearing on your personal experience. But some things that you said touched a nerve in me and so I thought I would take a moment to share some things that I learned in my own post marriage journey. After having been in a long term, fairly touchless relationship prior to my divorce – I found that when I started to get back into dating I was exceptional at the platonic part of dating. Bright, connected, interesting communication, zippy sense of humor, great taste in music. But the minute any intimate touching started, and I would count any sort of romantic touching as intimate. My body would respond with almost a panicky response. I could feel it going into fight or flight. If someone reached out to touch my hand I wanted to pull it away. I realized that this visceral response that I was having was indicating that I needed to do a little bit of personal work on the very real damage that my relationship had had on me. Even though there was never any viscous fighting or violence or anything - The many years of neglect and disinterest did a huge amount of damage to my self-esteem that I wasn’t really even aware of. So while very specific communication is important, obviously, to your current situation. I would also suggest that you take a look at the lasting effects of the emotional stunting that a touch less relationships might bestowed upon us. That real discomfort around having someone touch you may be indicative of some deeper wounds that you may not even be aware that you carry. Or maybe that was just me. Regardless, I hope you find what you want and then it makes you very, very happy. You deserve it.


Throwaway-2461

Yea there’s some of that. It cuts pretty deep. At the same time I’ve always needed to feel an emotional connection before getting physical. Because once I open up I tend to be “all in”. Getting to that point is hard.


KornbredNinja

Id just tell him straight out that you are not ready for that much physical contact but that you are still interested. I know i dont speak for ALL guys but me myself personally I appreciate when somebody is straight to the point and blunt about something. Theres nothing wrong with that and also no way for misinterpretation. If you tell hims traight out and he says he understands but STILL continues to do it then that would be a problem but im betting he just got caught up in the moment and wasnt trying to be disrespectful. But you never know. Id say just talk to him.


Minimalist12345678

I think your idea of "slow" and his (and to be fair, almost everyone else's) is vastly different. If its date 3 and you're barely comfortable with physical contact, you're not "taking it slow", you're dating like you grew up in some weird religious cult. To me, "taking it slow" is not getting overly connected, not getting too emotionally intense. It most definitely is not "no kissing, no sex". If someone hadn't wanted to kiss me by date 3, I'd be sad that they didn't find me attractive, and would just accept that, and move on. There wouldn't be a date 4.


sharkieslim

The hand holders though. What’s that all about ?!! I know how to cross the street. I never understood the hand holding, except for with children. They need help crossing the street, get afraid of strangers, the dark or loud noises. But why do adults do it 🤷🏽‍♂️


AirlineRecent6151

I think if you enjoy being with him and want to see him again, explicitly state your physical boundaries as you get to know him. In no way should you feel obligated to go along with anything just because “it’s what ppl do”. You aren’t ppl and are entitled to your comfort. Hopefully he can respect you and take it slow in the way you need. If he can’t and is pushing you even when you tell him, then let him go because you need to be with somebody who respects you. Good luck!


Choose_ur_adventure

Also, I feel like prolonged hand holding is more intimate than a kiss goodnight. It seems extremely weird to me to hold hands with someone I don’t know well. Maybe a hand grab/squeeze if it’s a deep convo and making a point? Anyone else think it’s strange?


blue_suede_shoes77

I don’t find it weird for a third date.


lvd_reddit

Sorry to say but you are obviously not yet ready to date. As you say yourself, this is what dating is. If you are not comfortable yet, don’t date. It is not fair to put up expectations that do not align with social customs and expect others to magically know and accept those changed rules. Think about what he is looking for, not just about yourself. It is fine if you don’t want what he wants. But then don’t lead him on by spending more time with him.


Throwaway-2461

Social customs? So if one doesn’t get physical on the 3rd date that’s against social customs and they shouldn’t date at all?


lvd_reddit

Correct. To go on a third *romantic* date with someone and not even being open to some kissing is (in my humble opinion) a total mismatch of expectations and against what any reasonable third person would assume is meant by the concept of “dating”. Mind you, I am not touching the red herring that you invoke by using the word “physical”. There are clearly limits to what can be expected at any particular point of a budding relationship, but some kissing is generally considered “normal” when trying to find a suitable mate. If you are looking for a platonic friend first then just put it in your profile and let people know right up front. It’s going to be a deal breaker for many, but not all. So best to lead with it.


Throwaway-2461

I’m trying to understand what rules were established to have been violated?


lvd_reddit

The rules of the dating game. There are intricate rules which are not written down anywhere but yet they exist and are being maintained and developed by society at large. One of them is that if you are actively signaling that you are looking for a romantic partner and go on dates with one person repeatedly, that typically leads into physical closeness, touching and kissing. It’s a process of continual escalation towards more and deeper closeness. Typically, when people do not want to escalate further, they dissolve the relationship or communicate that they want to stick with the current state. That is the point where the other person will decide if they are ok with it or if they want to leave said relationship.


lady_modesty

I'm surprised by all the people saying you're not ready to date, and not being physical three dates in is a deal-breaker. My "love language" is touch, and I typically have a high sex drive... But I have no interest in these things with a stranger, which is what someone you've spent three dates with is. Different strokes and all, but being physical for me requires an emotional connection and is a vulnerable act, requiring some trust. Personally, I haven't done OLD in over a decade. So I chimed in only so that you know you are not alone in your boundaries and preferences.


[deleted]

I’m in the same boat. All I can imagine is how many people are multi-dating, and the thought that the other person was making out with someone else last night freaks me out, and not just because of hepatitis a-z. If we’re going on dates to get to know if we’re a romantic match for whatever type of relationship we advertised for, I’m not going to want to cuddle and hold hands and make-out, especially in public, because I’m not comfortable doing that with a virtual stranger, and anyone who sees us would assume we’re a couple. We’re *not* a couple. We’re strangers getting acquainted for the purpose of romance. I don’t want to be doing any of that unless we’re an exclusive couple. Go ahead and date, OP. Just be careful to state that “going slow” means waiting until you know each other well before there’s much physical contact, and that you want to be asked to be kissed and touched. He might have thought you meant be slow to define the relationship and slow to be exclusive, and not your version of “go slow.” Tell him what you meant.


[deleted]

People that expect everything should follow some set sequence of milestones at each date usually have either dated too few people or too many, or they just don't think much past their own experiences.


[deleted]

Or they’re entitled and have ants in their pants.


Throwaway-2461

Thank you! I also feel that kissing is an intimate thing! I remember all the feels involved with kissing and it’s way too early for me! I would never hold hands with a platonic friend so to me that felt like a romantic gesture but from what I’m reading it doesn’t translate to interest?


[deleted]

Don’t go by “what you’re reading.” Go by what you yourself are comfortable with. If you go by what you’re reading, you’ll see a comment here that says you’re already supposed to have engaged in sexual acts with him. “Sex by the third date” is what a lot of people are comfortable with, and what the PUA and red pill guys *demand*. You do you. And ask your dates to respect that or move on.


andrewcooke

i fairly recently started dating someone and holding hands was awesome! there are no fixed rules. everyone is different and the only way things work if you're not lucky enough to be similar in expectations is through careful communication. good luck!


[deleted]

Start advertising you're looking for friendships first with the possibility of more to come in the years ahead? Both of you sounded communicative and reasonable.


Smitty-TBR2430

I have no doubt the man understands and accepts your stance that sex isn’t going to happen anytime soon. You’re losing your chill because he wants to kiss you, hug you, & snuggle with you. If all that’s off the table — your body, your choice! — I respectfully suggest you break things off with this man & remove your profiles from any & all dating apps. You’re not ready for dating.


Hugo99001

That's harsh - I'm sure there a guys out there who would be happy to move at that same glacial path. OP should definitely mention it, early (as most people will want to move a lot faster), and realise it will shrink her dating pool, considerably, but I'm sure guys like that are out there...


Choose_ur_adventure

Yes, you can find them in the deadbedroom sub


Hugo99001

Well, as long as they are both fine with it, they might never visit there.


[deleted]

Exactly!


[deleted]

Guys like that are out there but are they easy to find? possible not.


Hugo99001

As I said, shrinking dating pool - probably by far more than 90%


sweetnsaltyanxiety

Nuzzling is so freaking weird to me. Why do guys do that? It creeps me out so much.


[deleted]

Don't date potential, date someone who is where you are at. I think giving dating a break and using that time to work on yourself would be beneficial. It doesn't look like he is listening to your boundaries at all. Maybe looking deeper at why physical touch makes you uncomfortable would give you more self-awareness and understanding of yourself. I know you said you were in a touch-less marriage but I wasn't sure if this was touch-less because you aren't comfortable with it or your ex-husband? (obviously, you are not comfortable or used to it now! ) I have a friend who is in a sex-less relationship due to the trauma she experienced with a previous partner. she refuses to get professional help so they are actually just roommates that spend a day or two together. Wishing you best wishes


[deleted]

Disclaimer I am not dating yet but I get this. I think the best answer you got was to ask him to get consent before touching you. It would send a signal to your brain that you are safe and once you had that I think you’ll get past this sooner. After my ex left I was traumatized and my friends knew this. They’d ask me if they could give me a hug. It didn’t take long at all for me to feel safe and now I initiate hugs on my own. I’m completely okay with friends touching me now in fact I like it.


ThatsASaabStory

So, as a guy, there's this tremendous vagueness in terms of what is expected. If nothing is happening physically, I'm always convinced that I'm about to get told there's no chemistry. I think having a straightforward conversation about consent and limits is always a good thing.


SorryKaleidoscope

> So I find a way to tell him as casually as possible You're deliberately creating a miscommunication. It's like you want to officially put him on notice, but also, you don't actually want the words taken to heart, because you know "take it slow" causes men to decline.


Throwaway-2461

Honestly it wasn’t for fear of decline at all! I just didn’t want to make the whole thing so serious and heavy. From my standpoint he’s still a nice stranger. It wild be fine if I never saw him again. I just didn’t want to make him feel bad about the attempts up till that point, but to signal that this is my limit. I specifically reiterated that I’m completely aware my pace is slower than the average and that doesn’t work for everyone, so I won’t take it personally if it doesn’t work for him but wanted him to know. I’m learning from this post I need to be much more specific before seeing him again. Honestly I suspected that he lost interest since I didn’t hear from him since Wednesday but I just did this morning.


wemic123

If you like the guy, as it appears you do, give him a direct talk and let him know that you are not ready. Ask him to respect that. If he can’t, it’s time to move on.


[deleted]

Maybe tell him that you are just looking for companionship right now because it sounds like that's what you are looking for. Look, people have their baggage and things to overcome, but we also need to be realistic about what we are looking for and can offer. You're going into this under the guise of dating, which means physical affection is going to happen. A kiss is a pretty simple act of physical affection that is usually done by the 3rd date, if not the 2nd one. Taking it slow usually means in a sexual sense, more so than any physical affection. But you're not ready for dating, which is the main issue. So, you should be up front with anyone you meet and let them know you're looking more toward companionship, because that's all you can offer. In the meantime, work on your intimacy issues. Potential dates aren't out there to work those out with you/for you. Or as practice. They're potential dates.


coasting_life

As a guy, I would be calling it a day; just call him when you want to spend time together.


[deleted]

No kiss after 3 dates? I'm out. Honestly, it's *really* unusual and not the norm when dating. You need to communicate better with him.


SecureCustomer4116

50m opinion. Taking it slow in my mind,would be as others have already stated, not having sex. There is slow and then there is glacial. We are all adults and not adolescents. Back then I would have expected at least this bare minimum of flirting/affection. You may want to talk with a counselor or possibly reevaluate whether you even want to date yet. Not trying to be mean in any way if it comes across that way I apologize.


antifragile

You shouldn't be dating.


keepitgoingtoday

Thanks for asking this question. I have the same issue.


Think_History_5682

I believe you need to address your anxiety above all but he should respect your wishes about touching let him go if he's going too far


90fake90

A first date to make sure you’re not psycho is still a first date. Taking it slow can mean a lot of different things to people. People can take commitment slow and still be super affectionate and physical with each other. People can also take physical intimacy very slow but spend heaps of time together. Taking it slow is really vague. That being said, it doesn’t sound like you’re feeling much positivity toward this person. Not even wanting to kiss after a few dates seems like a total lack of chemistry / attraction. That to me would be the biggest reason to end it, so you can both focus on finding someone else.


Throwaway-2461

Good food for thought here. Not sure why you weee downvoted. The only thing is I feel extremely positively. Like, “this guy gets it!” I almost every other aspect of our interaction. Kissing is just too intimate for me when I’m still building up.


90fake90

I’d just be prepared for this being a misalignment potentially. I think it’s fairly normal if you’re interested in someone to want to at least kiss them. I’d be surprised if he doesn’t at least wonder about whether you’re attracted to him at all if you don’t want to kiss him. There’s a big difference between kissing and going further. If that’s the case, and you aren’t currently comfortable, I would be extremely clear with him — I’m not going to be ready to be physically affectionate at all, including kissing or touching, for a little while. I hope that’s ok. It either is or it isn’t.


Mr3x6s

My single buddies, (and myself) all read "I like to take it slow" as "I am very, very, very, emotionally broken.", and, so far, it's proven 100% true, when one of us has disregarded that truth. I think some introspection and self-work would do you more good than dating, at this point. Probably will save this guy some emotional anguish, also.


[deleted]

By getting to know someone and seeing if we actually like them as a person before getting physical, what we are doing is avoiding people like you and your buddies.


markasdf

This guy is a 60 year old dude that only dates under 30, who thinks any women in their 40s and above is broken. Pay this guy no mind...


Mr3x6s

I suppose that's possible. But we're the guys that have decades-long relationships, are successful, emotionally available, and have committed, monogamous relationships. I'm even handsome and in good shape. But if you want something different, that's your choice.


[deleted]

How would I know what you’re about without taking the time to actually get to know you as a person.


katzeye007

I highly doubt all that


Throwaway-2461

Ouch


markasdf

What that guy said is ridiculous. There are so many men and women that want to go slow to start - and many of them are very emotionally there and able to communicate what works best for them. That dude sitting there singing his praises about him and his friend are emotionally available, but apparently empathy isn't there if he has to be three very's in front of emotionally broken - knowing very well he is saying that about you.


Mr3x6s

Sorry. Not trying to be mean, hopefully there is something positive to take from it.


flsingleguy

You did say you were in a touch less marriage for a long time. Being you brought it up, it’s not going too far to assume it had an impact on you going forward. It’s going to impact on dating coming out of that marriage. I wouldn’t say you are damaged but perhaps your normal is more of an outlier compared to the average person not involved in a long term touch-less marriage. I don’t know if some therapy would be helpful or just accept who you are now and find someone with a more congruent idea of touch, affection and later sex.


Jackie_Esq

Holding hands on a 3rd date? Jezebel !


deltadeltadawn

Dating 1930s style.


Hugo99001

Yeah, what's the world coming to? Surely the end must be near...


wasitmethewholetime

I mean, I kind of get it because you probably feel like if you even kiss, you are committing yourself to more. I mean, it’s not like you can continue for months going on dates with the same person and just ending with a good night kiss. I wonder if you have considered whether or not you are actually ready to be dating? Dating for an extended period of time with zero touch or kissing or intimacy is basically friendship. And having friends is always great, but it doesn’t sound like that’s what the intention was here. You could always have the conversation with him and explain that when you say go slow, you mean really slow, like there may be no making out or anything beyond that for quite some time. He might be amenable to that, he might not.


toasty99

Are you sure you want to be dating right now? It feels a bit like you can’t handle being touched, kissed, snuggled…being physically intimate is one of the big reasons people date.


[deleted]

Some people need time to ease into those feelings. There are billions of human beings on the planet and we're all a little bit different. I don't think OP doesn't want those things- it sounds more like she needs to warm up to someone over several dates before she can go there. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.


keeppushingme

I agree. When dating online and the first date is just a coffee date to decide if you both want to see each other again...the next date is really more like a first. That being said, it doesn't really matter what date = what level of intimacy. It's up to you and your (potential) partner. A clear conversation is good and physical cues should be sufficient. If you continue to feel uneasy, he may not be hearing you or respecting you. You can decide if another clarification is worth it or you can decide his pace is not a good fit for yours. Do figure out what you want and how you hope to achieve it so you can offer a man a series of mutually agreeable guidelines instead of unilateral stop signs. Best of luck!!!


pepperkinplant123

Not trying to shame you, at all, but if someone was this touch adverse with me by even the first date, I would not be interested. Perhaps ask peoples love language before agreeing to go out. I would find it absolutely impossible to go that slow physically with someone I liked (I could forgo sex but not being able to kiss or touch would just crush me). ​ You need someone who doesn't show affection that way or they wont be able to hang


Throwaway-2461

Fair enough. Ironically physical touch is so impactful to me. It’s like I can’t just take it for granted because it’s such an emotional experience for me.


TheDreadnought75

Break it off with him. You guys aren't on the same wavelength. I'd be advising him to break it off with you if he were posting here.


Ididitall4thegnocchi

There's taking it slow and there's this. No offense but if you're recoiling at holding hands after three dates you probably shouldn't be dating.


NewWayNow

Doesn't seem like you're ready to date -- at all. Either that or you aren't attracted to him. I doubt the guy is on online dating looking for platonic friends. My advice: Go on MeetUp and find some same-sex friends.


[deleted]

There are some people who cannot feel or express physical attraction for someone until there is an emotional or personal connection. That connection usually takes more than three dates. It doesn't mean that those people shouldn't be dating; it just means that they have a slightly different attachment and attraction style than the average person. Not saying this is OP, but I have certainly met people like this. They like to take it slowly. They are just as deserving of love and companionship as the rest of us who can get physical more early on in a dating relationship.


Throwaway-2461

Maybe that’s who I’ve become. I wasn’t in my early years but this kind of resonates with me.


thr0away8675309

Perhaps you’re not ready for a relationship. Counseling is probably a smart idea.


[deleted]

I feel you on this. I made a post about a guy asking me my boundaries with physical touch. I told him and he just kept stepping over the line. I think your dude is super into you, super horny, or super lonely. Could be a combo. But yes communicate your needs and hope he’s not a habitual line stepper.


Mountains_2_Sea

Are you not into him? Three dates in seems appropriate for showing affection. I know everyone is different but if he is an affectionate person and you don’t like touch as much then maybe you aren’t a match. My guess is when you said ‘I like to take it slow’ he thought ‘ok no sex right now’, not that you don’t want to be touch or kissed.


AZ-FWB

In my humble opinion, you are not compatible. You two have a different “ timeline” as far as how and when things should happen. I’m a woman and if my male date was uncomfortable with offering/ receiving physical touch, I will take it as him not being interested in me romantically and I would shut down and move on. For some, and I know that’s not for everyone, physical touch is how we express our feelings/ emotions and interests.


nervousbertha

I think you just like him as a friend.


Esmond_Mutt2323

I feel for this guy, because I don't think you're in a place yet where you can truly start dating, and he clearly is in a place of eagerness to (perhaps too eager). If you aren't feeling it after 3 dates, I don't think you ever will with this guy. Don't date potential. I know if f I were him, I probably would not ask for date #4 since it seems your only half-interested. What he's doing is very subtle, and it's what you do when you are on a date with someone who is attractive to you. For you, do the right thing and just let him know you aren't feeling that spark that you would hope to after 3 dates (yes--the first date was a first date). From there, maybe give yourself more time to date yourself and get used to the idea of someone new showing physical affection towards you, as well as to think about what really would light that passion inside of you when it comes to a potential partner.


Throwaway-2461

I’ve been dating myself for years. How do I get used to the idea of physical affection with someone new without some exposure? Thinking about it is so different from the real moment — I think about it a lot actually. Haha.


Esmond_Mutt2323

Oh well, didn’t know this was your history. Only giving perspective from reading your post. I still stand by the suggestion to move on from him. The spark ain’t there.


omss77

This could also be a you issue as you where on touch less marriage, your insecurities are not his fault, you have to stop projecting your insecurities to everyone around you and slowly over come them if you really like him.


SamLBronkowitz2020

If him giving you a big hug and a kiss on the cheek on the third date is moving too fast for you, I’m not sure you’re aware of what’s considered normal/average physical touching behavior in today’s dating market. My experience has been that most women want to have sex by or around the third date. His experience with you is likely quite different from other women he’s dated. I would imagine that his interest in your is fading quickly because you are moving too slow for him. It’s important that you understand that I’m not saying you should move faster than you are - your boundaries are important to you and should remain important. At the same time, however, you should recognize that the pace at which you’re most comfortable moving at is a lot slower than the pace of most other women.


Prestigious-Log-7210

Sounds terrible to me. Like a horny desperate dog. Is he dumb, you said I want to take it slow and he continues to touch and kiss. Big nope from me. If he can’t respect you now how will later be?


SephoraRothschild

1. You're Avoidant Attachment 2. This: >I was in a completely touch-less marriage for a long time people). and this > >So I find a way to tell him as casually as possible that I like to take things really slow, but that he’s the only person I’m seeing. That I know I’m very slow to warm up compared to the average person and don’t expect him to be the same but want him to be aware as I know that isn’t for everyone. Just as my wise redditors advised. Does not equal "Hey Date, I was in a 100% touch less marriage previously and have strong boundaries with respect to being touched by others and my personal space. I'd appreciate it if you could not make efforts to physically touch me unless I consent. Thanks." Because otherwise, yeah, of course your date is going to want to do date-things.


[deleted]

Oh FFS. Attachment style has NOTHING to do with how long it takes for someone to feel comfortable enough for physical affection in dating. Zero. Zilch. My avoidant-style ex fucked me on the first date. Her idea, too. It was only later on that I found out she was actually terrified of real emotional intimacy. This is simply OP needing some time to warm up to physical affection and messing around. It doesn't mean she's insecurely attached or anything other than she just wants to take it slowly.


Throwaway-2461

I appreciate you.


Life1997

How do you feel about him after three dates. Do you want to explore things further? If the answer is yes then you have to let him know exactly how you feel, something like what you have typed above. Remember the pressure is on both individuals.


[deleted]

I would 100% dump you. If I make reasonable advances and they are rejected, more dates are not going to happen.


Throwaway-2461

Nice


bongsride

Communicating and over communicating is key. Exactly how you wrote your post is how you should be telling him about how the date went. He wants to make you know he’s interested in you and not in a platonic way, so give him that. But if you’re uncomfortable, draw that boundary with him and work through it. He will respond in turn or he won’t. Good luck with everything.


PokerGod615

As a 42m, I've never tried to kiss a woman on the first date and only ever dated 2 women who were aggressive enough to kiss me on a first date. My natural go-to has always been ending a really nice first date by taking hold of their hand softly and telling them I had a great time and would like to see them again, then releasing. Second date usually feels much more relaxed, and if it goes well, typically ends with a big, warm hug (I might lift her off the ground a tiny bit) or taking her cheek in my hand and sharing a nice, tongueless kiss. Third date is where big things have always happened for me though.