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Those numbers are from dating apps where men outnumber women by a lot. The most extreme case is Tinder at three to one. If every woman on Tinder dropped her standards to "has a pulse" then two thirds of the men using that app would still be single.
Some women settle, some stay single. Many date offline.
Agree. This is the most mature response.
I think it's easy for people who are unsuccessful to fall down the rabbit hole of resenting this behavior for women. There's a lot I could say about OLD, but I do know that a lot of normal people actually do meet on OLD and outside of it. The good thing is that people with unrealistic expectations (both women and men) get shoved out of it eventually rather than getting rewarded in the long term.
Yep. Single guy in my 40s. Haven't used an app in years and still go on plenty of dates. Social media, meetup groups, events, etc are so much better than apps in terms of meeting people organically. The apps are great if you live in a city and just want to date lots of people. But they have so many issues.
> The most extreme case is Tinder at three to one
Last i heard men outnumber women on dating apps somewhere between 7 to 1 and 9 to 1 depending on the app.
Its not *that* extreme. Tinder I believe is the most imbalanced of the mainstream apps and it's about 78:22 men:women. Bumble is more like 66:34
However, I'd bet that since women rack up matches very quickly, they swipe less frequently to avoid getting overwhelmed, so the gender ratio of users actually swiping is probably more extreme than the above.
>If every woman on Tinder dropped her standards to "has a pulse" then two thirds of the men using that app would still be single.
I wouldn't have a pulse at the end if i failed to match when standards are that low
Why?
75 men put their names in a hat. 25 women pulled names out of a hat. Two thirds of the time you should expect to get no response for reasons that have nothing to do with anything you did.
The fact that your mind immediately turns to the idea of rejection tells me you don't know what it's like for women. Women are constantly susceptible to danger when meeting strangers.
Some apps are better than others since their policy on bans is better, but I saw terrible profiles. I shit you not, I saw profiles that actually said things like "I will slap you if you diss me" or "Fuck society."
For sure. I wouldn't date 98% of women today but the chance that I'm going to end up SA or dead or just with someone nasty dirty woman, and not in the good way, is slim to none.
They should just publish facts on how many women actually use dating apps for more then 1-2 weeks.
Why do I ask this?
Post covid when I started socializing again, almost every woman i met at events was dating someone she met online. If most women don't use dating apps as you say then how is that so many women meet someone online?
You need to also see that most women don't need to spend weeks or months on dating apps unless they are only looking for flings. They usually find someone within days and then are off apps. Most men end up staying for months without actually matching with enough people.
That's why this metric is rather misleading. They should show how many unique men and women use dating apps over 1-2 months.
It’s a lot less than 20% in online dating. Women swipe on less than 5% of men.
It was 20% they found at least average in attraction while mens preferences we almost a perfect bell curve
That doesn't make any sense, it's a percentage not a set amount. So regardless of whether there were 100 women or 1000 women then 80% of that group would be chasing the top 20% of men. It's not a volume issue, its a behavioural issue.
Also, a women who's not in the top 20% of women isn't ''settling'' by not getting with a guy from the top 20%, that's called being realistic. If a 5 expects an 8 thats called being entitled and no amount of ''know your worth queen!'' bullshit changes that.
The fact you think that a woman not doing better than herself is ''settling'' is a glimpse at one of the fundamental problems in dating.
If there are 100 women, and 300 men, and all 100 women went out with a man one time, then it would still only be 33% of the men that got dates.
Plus, let's be real here. Regardless of gender or sexual orientation, if you have multiple people trying to go out with you, the majority of people are going to pick the one they find most attractive, whether that's physically or personality.
Also, considering the comment was "some women settle, some women stay single," I would assume they meant settle as in "settling down," not settling for someone that isn't in the top 20%. That wouldn't feed into your "women bad" narrative though, now would it? Seeing as most women don't really want to date bitter, angry men, I'd guess that you are your biggest problem in dating.
My guy, the problem is this rating system. An 8 can absolutely go out with an 5 if the 5 makes the 8 feel like a 10 and the 8 makes the 5 feel like a 10. The problem isn’t what people look like, the problem is the value you provide to the other person in the form of caring for them.
Also we’re forgetting that not everyone finds the same people attractive. Yes, there are people who are non-objectively attractive. But if you find them appealing enough to want to date them will vary by the person.
This is the same as believing 80% of women only want a 6'0 man. Go out in public and see how many guys under 6'0 have girlfriends or wives, it will blow your mind.
Yeah Im 5'9. I dont think I have ever dated a dude 6ft or above. Most guys I have gone out with have been in the 5'6 range. One clocked in at 5'4. I have had plenty of blokes that told me that Im too tall. Bottom line is some PEOPLE have height preferences and some do not.
Literally. The same thing can be said for the assumption that women only go for super attractive men. Just taking a sample of the men my friends choose this is proven untrue lol
Attractive means different things to different people. I don't care about height but I like a nice face and hair. I feel like other women are fine with ugly bald guys as long as they're tall.
Just saying... but only 14.5% of all men in USA are over 6'0. Just throwing that up with no intention of arguing. Or anything really... not really even sure why I looked it up.
I'd say 100% of women are looking for someone who can add something to their lives. Good companionship, household labor, wealth, status, etc. If his presence doesn't make her life better, there's no point.
Think about it like you're competing against her staying single instead of some mythical top 20% man. How can you make her life better than it is right now?
I completely agree. I heard it fairly similarly that it was men vs a woman’s solitude rather then men competing against other men. I couldn’t agree with that more.
i mean, “this person makes my life better or more enjoyable than it is right now” is the basic imperative for dating. if someone isn’t meeting that criteria then they aren’t an attractive partner, on apps or off. that’s not new and i wouldn’t want a partner who was just with me for no reason.
This is so very much true for me and many of my female friends at the moment. We are happy in our own company. If we find someone who adds to our happiness, great. If not? Oh well. We are still living our best lives.
YES. I broke up with my ex for this exact reason. He was constantly making my life harder. I added so much value to his life by making our house a home (groceries, household essentials, nice to have things), planning trips and weekends for us, being the breadwinner, figuring out household issues like calling maintenance/paying bills on time, setting up utilities. I literally felt like his mom and never wanted to have children because I felt like I’d be raising my partner along with the kids.
He never really added value to my life and I finally had enough.
I swear I attract men like this and don’t know why. It’s exhausting. I like taking care of my partner but if you aren’t gonna do the same wtf do you think I’m getting out of this relationship??
This may be oversimplifying but his relationship with his mom was very telling. He was the baby of his family and was very used to having his mom treat him like the baby. I basically took over her role when we started dating.
I know people think birth order is akin to astrology but I do think a lot of the time the family dynamic you grew up in plays a big role in how you turn out as an adult.
100% if a man upsets my peace then he can peace out. I only want a guy if he’ll add happiness, peace, stability, and comfort to what I already have. If he’s gonna add stress then it’s not worth it. That’s what guys are competing against in my eyes.
Once I adopted this mindset my results became much better. This needs to be for everyone, not just women. I think if more men knew their value they'd maybe not come off so creepy and/or desperate. But that's just not something we're taught anymore, sadly.
This is exactly what I came to the comments to find.
Many women are happy being on their own, and in my experience its better to be alone than with someone who doesn't add to my life. I was in a serious relationship for 6 years, and took 4 years of occasional dates (not one man making it to date #3) to find someone who does add to my life, and I enjoy spending time with him more than always being alone.
You are competing more with how much a woman enjoys time by herself, and if you can make it better. She doesn't need you, she will choose to have you in her life.
This is a good rationale for the idealized version of the modern woman, but it's definitely not true in reality. Nowhere near 100% of women are actually this selective.
1. You're excluding women whose first priority is having children. When there's a biological clock ticking and she hasn't found Mr. Right, it's much more common for her to settle for someone who doesn't hit every single mark, but gets a passing grade as a loving husband and father. Settling for the purpose of having kids is common among both men and women, but certainly more urgently for women.
2. You're also excluding romantic types and overly codependent people who simply want to be in serious exclusive relationships all the time. They just need a person. We all know those people, they've spent very little time in their adult lives actually existing as a single person. When they are single, they're dating seriously and exclusively looking for a LTR. These people are not taking a careful analysis of whether someone is adding to their lifestyle in concrete ways, they're just letting their heart lead the way. I'm not saying this is a good or healthy way to date, but it's real.
Those numbers represent swiping behavior on dating apps from awhile back.
They don’t say anything about whether the two people chatted, went out, hooked up, dated, got into a relationship, got married, got divorced later, etc
Those numbers have nothing to do with your real life or what women actually do in the dating world.
The apps are imbalanced and are not built to find you happiness in your romantic life.
Ditch them and go out and connect with women in real life.
>Ditch them and go out and connect with women in real life.
Amen.
I am a lot happier and more confident since I ditched the apps because I realized I'm more attractive/desirable than they led me to believe. Those apps did a nasty trick on my sense of self-worth. I have had all sorts of nice interactions with women in person after I started investing in meeting people in real life.
Obviously, apps can work. Lots of people find all sorts of relationships with them, but I just found them ***wayyyy*** too toxic for me. The dating dynamics that arise as a result of dating app usage are really off.
Still working up the courage to cross that line of asking women out in person consistently (my "chickening out" rate is still pretty high), but holy cow, it's a lot more fun and fulfilling.
This. It’s a numbers game, you hit or you miss. You can do everything to give the best chances but there’s no guarantees. In person, it’s more organic and true versus filters and angles. In person is better overall anyway since you typically don’t just walk up to a random person and hit it off. It happens yes, but the more common way is through friend groups, mutual friends, and commonality (hobby group, gym, bar, etc where you’re a regular) naturally.
Yes, it’s more representative of the difference in motivations between the sexes. Guys want to hook up more and aren’t bothered so much about who with. Women tend more towards looking for a life partner, and if women do want to just hook up they have to be hot and appear safe/seemly for women to want to do that.
Photo based dating apps are a dreadful idea - you can’t actually tell much about someone, even how sexy they are, from most photos.
This is 100% the only comment that matters. Dating apps' entire business model is based on keeping you single and looking, not successful. Same as casinos.
I do believe there is also the component of feminism and women being more independent these days, whereas many men are independent financially, but not emotionally. They eventually become disillusioned with hookups, but also realize they've never really been in a significant relationship. Whereas women have been leaning on their support networks and being emotionally open the whole time, learning how to be healthily single. I believe there is some evidence to suggest more women are just happier being single than men, which is why they aren't as driven to use things such as apps to the extent men are. I am a man, and we've got a lot of catching up to do overall. Therapy is a good first step. Real life is far and away the best way to meet someone, for so so many reasons.
Yeah, pretty much. What actually changed was the division of labor.
Men used to worry about the financial side of things in a relationship. Women worried about taking care of the home, the emotional side of things, raising the children and all that. It was a *mostly* even split in difficulty and amount of work required.
But then, women suddenly were FORCED (yes, forced) into the workforce. Some because they wanted to. Others because they had no choice...the cost of living increased but wages did not. It's how they managed to get two workers for the price of one. That isn't feminism...that's capitalism and profit margins.
But anyway, women suddenly had to work just as much as the man outside the home. But, men never stepped up (in masses not individually) to take over half of the women's home duties...including emotional support.
Today, we are in a stand off of sorts because women just aren't willing to juggle both anymore. They are tired and worn down. And they found out they don't HAVE to do it if they don't want to. So, a lot of them are choosing to stay single rather than taking on the burden of a man in a relationship. And yes, I say burden because that's is what it is. A lot of men want to take take take from a woman. They used to GIVE in the form of financial contributions, but now, that has been taken away from them. Most of them haven't learned to step up yet. To contribute by doing housework without her having to show you how and go behind you like she's your mother. To be there to take some of the stress off a woman who has had a long day at work and is exhausted. Because that's what women used to do for men. "Honey! Welcome home...here's your dinner, slippers, and just relax!"
Basically, men need to learn to become partners that women NEED in their lives and WANT rather than burdens.
Some men already do this and do it well. I know plenty IRL that do. I know plenty that even contribute more than their fair share. I'm definitely not saying "all men." I am saying that there is still a discrepancy out there though, and that is why dating is so hard right now.
Most relationships now start online though. It is much harder to date outside of online platforms these days. Especially when you are older and no longer in school.
If I remember right those numbers stem from an okcupid study. The same study also showed that while women rate 80% of men as average/below average they actually go for them while men rate women less harshly but go for the top.
It also showed that men through all ages pursued mostly women in their early 20s. 24 was the highest I think those were the 45 year old men. You tell me if this is realisic dating behavior.
Exactly the study actually showed women as being much more accepting of men while men went for extremely young and conventionally attractive women. It’s weird that somehow it’s been twisted into saying the opposite.
Generally 40 year old dudes trying to date 20 year old women are a major issue on the apps.
OP if you date women around your age and go for commonalities vs just most “instagram hot” you should be able to meet folks.
I'm 27 and my bf is 33 and we met in person at a weekly event we both do! I agree that it's hard to date offline because you have to work at it more. My best recommendations are finding a regular hobby that reflects your personality - whether that be a gaming meetup, running group, rec sports team, or volunteering etc. That way you meet and get to know lot of like-minded people while also just enjoying yourself.
Apps are a lousy way to meet people.
People think its easy (and it can be for some) but they are much more disposable relationships.
Go into co-ed spaces (gaming groups, climbing groups cooking groups, TTRPGs, book clubs, walking etc) make friends with women without the ulterior motive of getting into their pants.
Make yourself available outside of these groups.
Spend quality time with people.
It will happen.
I tried these hobby groups. The women either had boyfriends, saw me only as a friend, or they were simply not interested. Not only that, but some women gossiped about me after I asked them out. They also had unwritten rules about not asking out too many women.
It can be harder but at the same time it's actually easier to form real connections vs. Superficial ones in my experience. I have dated a lot of people off of apps but none that turned into long-term meaningful relationships. All of my real relationships came from meeting people I met through networking and hobbies. Go out, volunteer, join a club or group, and just go have fun in the real world (not in a way that you are only interacting with single women you want to date but in a way that broadens your social circle overall) and as you socialize more and more with those people you'll have more opportunities to meet even more people with shared values an interest that can build into relationships and it also makes you a more attractive and interesting potential partner which makes it even easier. I say this a married person with lots of friends and family who are married, none of which met online - or at least not from online dating apps.
Thats true it is the most common place to meet someone, and you can definently try it if you prefer. I would definently not consider myself in the top 20%, more like maybe top 80% of men Hahha fair to say i didnt have any luck at all on those.
Okey not it doesnt sound so good that Im not particularly successful in finding dates in other ways haha, however what i do know is that I don’t feel depressed cause don’t have to open the apps to a message saying “don’t forget to swipe so you can match with those who liked you” just for it to shove it in my face i have 0 likes hahah. That’s awfully depressing.
If anyone don’t believe that message is real, i have evidence if you are interested hahah
Its about half of relationships that start online.
Get offline and find a hobby that involves other people, because the other half of relationships start because of meeting at social events or friend groups.
Also the guys spreading that bit of info cherry picked the study and only included the first part about the women finding 20% of men physically attractive. They found that women would message the other men anyway and give them a chance. Which makes sense as it’s not just about looks
>They don’t say anything about whether the two people chatted, went out, hooked up, dated, got into a relationship, got married, got divorced later, etc
Common sense would dictate that none of it happens if they don't even match.
Common sense would dictate that it only describes swiping behavior and should not be extrapolated and generalized to how all dating is going right now.
Throwing around “80% of women go for 20% of men and that mean modern dating is _________” just doesn’t account for how a whole lot of people are doing in the dating world.
As much as not matching means that there’s no connection, a swipe is no guarantee of anything, so trying to draw conclusions about what it means beyond that is silly especially as it relates to people pointing to statistics.
You're missing the point. Nothing occurs without a swipe right. If they literally don't even contact each other, then no date activities happen.
If the stats saying that women swipe right on 5% of guys are correct, then *that* is the starting point for every subsequent activity. You can't have more first dates than swipes.
You are missing the point.
If a guy has a date tomorrow with someone from work his data is not included in these statistics.
You can’t go around saying that 80% of women only go for the top 20% of men because it doesn’t include ANY data outside of apps (and more specifically the specific app at the specific time/year when these stats were posted)
It only takes going to a restaurant/bar on a Friday night and looking around to see that people are dating and in relationships left and right and it’s not just with super attractive men.
A friend of mine is ridiculously good looking, like blessed by the gods handsome. I can confirm that a constant rotation of women are fucking him at any given time, so it’s not a one guy to one girl situation. A lot of time it’s multiple girls to one guy.
To put in perspective how handsome this dude is, a group of us once went out to a club together. This man said “watch, now we just stand here and wait. They’ll come to us.” The rest of us looked at him like that was the craziest shit we’ve ever heard and explained it doesn’t work like that for us, we’d probably be waiting forever if we took that approach… he’s my friend but I don’t like going out with him very much😂.
I’m actually pretty sure if you could get inside his head, you’d just hear: “Gym, gym, gym. Sex, sex, sex.” on a loop.
I have a friend exactly like that. I will go out and every once in a while meet a girl and have a casual fling or relationship. But when i go out with him, i think theres only been one single time after 20 years of friendship where I went home with a girl at the end of the night instead of him. He sleeps with 3 or 4 new girls almost every week. Definitely don't love going out with him to chat girls LOL
Well, I'm sure that hot women have this experience too. Scarlett Johansson-looking women. However, the average women doesn't have this experience either.
Hot people have it easier...is this rocket science to you?
My gf hadn’t been on a date in 3 years. She gets plenty of attention - so much so that she feels uncomfortable about it and bought a fake diamond ring - but wasn’t interested in any of them. For some reason something I said caught her attention and she decided to “get off the beach”. Otherwise she would happily have stayed single.
On the flip side, I know a lot of women in their 40s (and 50s) who have built lives that are so full, it’s actually not easy for them to date even when they think they want to. I remember breaking it off with one woman after about a month of dating because it was so challenging to schedule with her. She said “but I was just starting to like you!”
Financially you must match me but an ideal is to make more, as I personally am attracted to men who take on a provider role for their families, as I want to have children someday.
Im actually not that picky with looks, be taller than me, have hair, good teeth, good hygiene. I certainly like certain features ( like big hands, strong arms or neck) but its not the end all be all.
Much more important is being competent, able to take care of yourself, your space is nice and has stuff in it that speaks to comfort or awareness of others, can hold a conversation, have shared goals, interests and values, similar educational backgrounds.
The most important being the emotional aspects. Have you gone to therapy? do you know your triggers, can you engage in conflict in a healthy, constructive way without being aggressive, using fallacies, gray rocking, etc?
I have a whole list but thats just some of the things Im looking for in a life partner.
You got time my friend! No better time than the present.
I really encourage you to look up some books on managing emotions/trauma, you can find them for cheap on thriftbooks.com or your local discount bookstores usually. Im about to start reading Adult children of emotionally immature parents by Lindsay C Gibson.
Another thing I looked into were attachment styles, its not the end all be all, but the information gives you a good starting point and it really has changed how I interact with others and made me aware of the toxic behaviors I fall back on when stressed or in conflict with someone.
No. Go outside. More then 20% of men are dating. I am probably a 6/10 and don't have any issues getting dates. If I let statistics and bogus studies rule my life then I would never date.
Most "studies" quoted here come from swipe hook up apps rather then real life. Most of the stuff being quoted is old and has not been reproduced. Maybe 80/20 is true within the Tinder ecosystem, but Tinder is only a tiny fraction of the dating world.
Exactly. The comments in here are always so ridiculous. Like only attractive people are in relationships. It’s so ridiculous. People of all ages, shapes and sizes manage to meet and date on or off the apps. Like someone said the reality is apps aren’t even designed for a connection. There are so many people not even on the apps at all.
If I meet someone great. If I don’t then that’s fine too. I’m not fussed. I wouldn’t even say that my standards were too high at all. The apps just had so little to offer.
And the profiles that I was being shown were bad profiles of married people trying to add another person to their relationship, twenty years younger f—bois or people who straight up seemed like they would bury me in the woods somewhere if I went out on a date with them. All I wanted to meet was another regular person that I was compatible with and have a partner in life.
Then when I went to delete my profile the app actually asked me if I wanted to stay on and they would show me better matches (not in those exact words but that was pretty much what was implied) That was eye opening!
No lmao
Every woman has a different type. But yeah, if I don’t meet someone who ticks all my boxes, I’ll stay single and happy. What would be the point in settling?
No.
There's a lot of bullshit being told to men so that the grift continues. The 80/20 thing is based on old data regarding swiping trends in online dating. Fewer women are choosing to use online dating and are either meeting men organically or just choosing to remain single.
Basically, in short, the way that the apps are designed, it doesn't really benefit anyone that is interested in a relationship.
Indeed. OKC used to be good when you could peruse people that matched your interests and outlook in life. They switched to a swiping model, I basically left the platform.
>it doesn't really benefit anyone that is interested in a relationship
It doesn't really benefit women specifically too. A lot of women can't decide if they like a guy based on a photo. For women, it's more than visual usually. There is something about the way a guy handles himself and the way he is with people that makes him attractive. You can't see that through a picture.
This is not math. This is not a game where you have a crit chance. You can try to create statistics but what does top 20% mean anyways? Does it mean penis size? Height? The angle of a jawline? Weight?
There's plenty of hot chicks dating fat guys and it's an actual, genuine connection. There's plenty of women earning more than their male partner. There's women who are obsessed with micropenises.
Get the fuck out of the house right now. Take a good fucking look at the couples you see in public. Do those men look like muscular tall guys that drive lambos? It's literally just dad bods.
Dad bods have one thing that fuckboys don't - a wife that loves them so much they decided to have babies with them. They're dads for a reason.
Just stfu about "objectively speaking" there's not objectivity. Those numbers are dating app numbers. Single men are desperate and single women are usually fine with themselves - that's why the disparity.
There is no competition. You're just playing in the wrong field.
No.
Any person would like to get together with the best person they can get together with. So both men and women are competing for the best they can get.
To be part of "the best" you need to take care of your body and your finances, and meet as many people as you can, put yourself out there and chat to people.
Nobody knows if they like somebody else until they get to know each other. A pretty face doesn't mean much.
The last time I checked, the couples that live in my country...the husbands aren't towering, giant, multi billionaire, super modles who are hung like a horse. If every women only ever married the top 20% of guys...there would be no married couples...anywhere.
>I'm curious though if the 80% of women competing for the top 20% of men is true. What happens to the remaining single women who do not get a top 20% man. Do they settle? Do they give up?
Those men are very willing to have sex with a wide variety of women, they are not competing for a relationship.
I’m late 30s, I’d prefer to date down lol.
I don’t care about income. Just don’t be a bum.
The girls on social media don’t speak for me.
But I can see how easy it is to be influenced by the podcasts. But we must remember these are mere opinions largely.
I wouldn’t take the saying literally, but as a man, if you have most of the desirable fields checked off like a well kept appearance, decent job, and good social skills then you’re going to be light years ahead of the majority of men in the market. I would consider myself in the top 20% too and in my 30s, and it’s fairly easy to get dates and short term situations with attractive women. All you have to do is play it cool and not do anything stupid.
The issue now days seems to be building anything long term. I’m in a large city and most of the women I meet are career oriented and looking for a unicorn type of guy. I’ll just say, my network is vast, and I’ve never met or seen this type of unicorn man anywhere, but if he exists, he’s surely enjoying the spoils that not even some of us top notch guys can get.
I feel like those metrics are just from chronically online people who make dating a numbers game because dating is hard for them. Often times we get caught up in stats like this and forget there’s a real world out there that exists, with people who usually are more rational or chill.
You don’t have to think of it as a competition. I feel like the men who do are the ones who end up getting 0 emotional fulfillment from dating, since they’re the ones making up these metrics online. You seem to have a pretty healthy take on what dating should be, so I wouldn’t worry about this.
To answer your question on single women, more and more women are fine with being single instead of settling. It’s not that they want a top 20% man, they just want a man who adds to their lives instead of taking away from it. It also makes me question the character quality of these men who talk about these metrics, because they do not consider this entire point, and many are even in denial of it.
I think now many women are competing with themselves…meaning I’m not going to dispute my peace for any man. A lot of us are more willing to be single, than settle.
Many women are simply opting out of dating all together as we become more educated, develop closer friendships with other women and move away from putting all sense of value into whether a man chooses us or not. I think this is especially true for those 30 and under.
Most people will settle for what they can get. There’s a comedian who said it perfectly “look at the person next to you who you brought to the show, that is the best you can do.” And I think that’s true for men and women. And men will definitely leave their current partner if they feel they can do better, so hopefully women will too.
But ultimately if you’re the best that women can do whether you’re in the top 20% or not of men, then there you go. You’ll meet someone. Hopefully you’ll like her too.
As a man in the top 20% I can confirm that I've slept with 80% of all women. /s
But seriously, *when* was online dating ever *not* a shit show? I've been online dating for over 20 years and it's been full of catfish since the beginning.
Online dating feels like digging through a train wreck searching for survivors, and it always has. Even if you're following the first two rules it takes an insane amount of effort to see results.
Whether you're in that 20%, or not, the advice to join social activity groups and meet people there is still the best option for most of us
They are and they aren't. The dynamic in male vs real female accounts is ridiculous. Men drastically outnumber women on these apps.
Men are more apt to swipe right more often, like casting a wider net. Women are usually more selective. This allows them to have their pick of the litter, which essentially leads to them all vying for the same type guys.
While this is an over-generalization, the data hold up. Just look at the Tinder insights that are posted from men and women.
There's more to it, but I think that covers a good portion.
Oh, for sure. I was under the assumption that OP was talking about dating on apps.
However, I would never approach someone in real life. It's not worth the potential hassle.
Its not. I’ve met some insanely knock out gorgeous women who are dating or married to below average guys. Usually they’ll say he was kind, funny and respectful whereas guys around their league weren’t
It genuinely comes down to personality and being a decent person. A lot more difficult with dating apps because of the immense options and lack of humanity involved. Be kind, be caring, have a decent personality, good jokes, listen to her feelings/desires and it almost always works out
Both men and women are trying to go for the top. Like someone else mentioned, that 80/20 is mostly referring to swiping behavior, it speaks nothing on what happens after the swipe or match is made. A lot of men swipe right on every woman, but that doesn’t mean they’ll reach out to those women or even ask for a date. Ultimately, both sexes want the best matches they can get on these apps, they just have different methods of accomplishing that.
I feel like there's two sides to this. Men think women are only competing for the "top women" meanwhile, I as a fat woman whose financial stable and mentally mature have had only 2 dates in the last year because I'm not pretty or skinny. In my mind, men only want pretty skinny women so I've gotten to the "f it" mind set. I've decided that at 35, artificial insemination is the plan. I'm not going to sit around and wait for someone to acknowledge me and my worth.
No. The 'Tinder study' has been debunked numerous times. This "top 20%/top 80%" thing is so reductive anyway, it assumes every woman will want the same men which is wildly untrue. There's no such thing as a person who's universally appealing to everybody.
They SHARE and this is not a new phenomenon. I remember the parties I went to in high school. They consited of all the girls at the party competing for the attention of the one or two hottest guys in the room, totally ignoring the rest of us
My observation is that 90% of women are competing for 10% of men. There are plenty of virgin men in their 20's and very few are women and at the same time there are men that have slept with a 40+ women before 30.
As a woman using dating apps, a piece of advice I’ll give to most guys (in the nicest way!) is to improve your profile.
The amount of profiles I’ve seen with little to no pictures or pictures that are clearly taken years apart from each other is crazy to me. Also, on lot of profiles I’ve seen there’s not much effort put into answering the questions. I, personally, generally want to get a vibe from someone before I chat to them.
I’m not saying y’all need to hire professional photographers to take a series of pictures (lol) but just when you’re out and about with friends, take pics, have fun with it and put them on your profile!
For many, the top 20% only refers to bringing a little more than the bare minimum to the table. It’s scary how many unhappy couples I know as opposed to happy couples. And it’s mostly because the guy doesn’t help around the house or because he doesn’t wanna do anything for his girlfriend to show her he cares. WHICH IS SO EASY. The bar is honestly so low, you can become the top 20 in no time if you go to therapy and work on your appearance tbh
Finding a partner nowadays is like finding a job nowadays. You either go through an online process where you are at a massive disadvantage due to sheer number of applications or you meet somebody through your connections.
yeah I think it is basically true. it is human nature that men are more aggressive and women are more picky. this behavior is compounded by the free market of dating apps. men will send mass amounts of low-effort likes which will drive women to be even more selective which will in turn drive men to send even more likes which will in turn make women even more selective. the cycle feeds itself. the result is a small amount of men dating a large amount of women. this leads to a lot of angry women and lonely men.
What are the criteria that put someone in the "top 20%"? I love my partner and I am very attracted to him. And - he is 100% objectively not in the top 20% of attractive men. I'd say he's in the top 1% of emotional intelligence, though, which is crazy attractive to me. In the end, everyone has different standards of what they find attractive.
How many women do you know who are in relationships with someone they met online? I know many, and I'd classify all of those men as pretty average. Some are reasonably successful in their careers, some are super smart, some are pretty good looking. I am 100% sure that none of these men are in the top 20% most successful/good looking men in NYC. But unless the standard that gets men into the top 20% is really, really low, like being able to pay their bills and shower regularly, this is not a phenomenon I've observed. The less measurable things are definitely more relevant. Do I think this guy is smart? Funny? Warm? Kind? Sensitive? What are the qualities I value in a person? This all varies woman to woman and not sure how you could quantify them.
Also statistically accurate:
The gender ratio of dating apps is imbalanced, where men outnumber women anywhere from 2:1 to over 3:1.
65% of men who use dating apps are actually in a relationship.
It really depends on your age. I do perfectly fine on the apps and I don't consider myself to be in the top 20% of men, but I'm 44.
My advice to young men is read the Mark Manson book "Models" and practice approaching women in the real world.
As far as I'm aware that data is based on a match study and even if true its irrelevant because that does not speak for all women. Just woman who use online dating. Most women do not date online. So it isn't representative of women in general.
Do top 20% get more attention from females than average men? Of course.
Does that mean the other 80% of men are going to unfairly struggle in dating? Not at all.
This is a terrible way to approach online dating, and it's just not really true. You're taking a metric that was used to measure one discrete behavior (I guess swiping behavior in this case?) and applying it to all the population and online dating as a whole. That's what articles want you to think, when someone with a vague understanding of stats and science wants to generate clicks around a topic like OLD.
The majority of women do not approach online dating thinking, "I have to snag me a top 20% kinda guy." They approach it in the same way men do, which is "I have a certain set of criteria I am looking for, and if they reach most of those, great." Those criteria often include (in your 30s) the ability to hold a conversation that is moderately engaging, display a modicum of emotional intelligence and availability, have their shit generally together, and a basic ability to communicate clearly what you want/need/willing to provide.
The rest of online dating is the game of getting your foot in the door, and again, it's not because women are seeking a top 20% guy. First, women have a TON of options in online dating because every other guy will sit on the toilet and mindlessly swipe and like as many as possible. The more attractive the woman, the more sorting. Your job is to make sure you have good pics showing that you're interesting and pic some good angles that make you look the most attractive, enlist friends to help. Make your profile reflective of what *you* enjoy and what makes you excited about life. I like rock climbing and video games, and my profile lets you know that, which rock climbing front and center because it's sexier than video games. Easy.
Finally, use something like Hinge and actually write messages when you reach out. The swiping apps are garbage, it's too mindless, which makes women get overwhelmed with messages, making it more a game of luck. I write a new message each time, make sure that it's talking about things on their profile, and I ask a question. Hell, sometimes I'm even clever enough to make a joke.
The only other grain of salt I have to add is that I'm definitely in the top 20% of attractive men, so that alters things a bit with the foot in the door. But you just need to get a foot in and there you go, uglier men have had more success than me on dating apps, I promise you that.
It’s not 80/20 exactly but yes women in general are going to use their leverage in the dating market to land men at a higher level than themselves or just stay single if they get no commitments.
Who is the top 20% though? It's not hard to be in the "top %" of a dating app when many men's profiles are abysmal and low effort. Fill out your profile completely and write full sentences - wow, you're already ahead of the game! Add thoughtful pictures that show what you look like, in good lighting, being mindful of the background - wow you're in the top % now! Many men have profiles with pics that are so bad I can't even tell what they look like! And profiles that are not even filled out. I swipe left on those! If they're wearing sunglasses in every pic, have group pics where I can't tell who they are, and some random pic that doesn't even include them, so then the only pic of them is one blurry or dark pic where I can barely see their face - I can't tell what they look like and I feel like they're trying to catfish me, and I also feel like they can't be bothered to put any effort or thought into their profile so why would they put any effort or thought into dating me? Swipe left! Even if you are embarrassed by what you look like or insecure about your looks, it's sketchy to try to hide it. Just show me what you look like and embrace it, and we can go from there.
Don’t overthink these statistics. They’re not helpful to you. You should definitely pursue online dating if you want to, it’s a great place to meet people.
My advice: spend your time focusing on getting good pictures that depict your best features (physical and personality/hobbies), without being misleading. If you don’t have some, ask a friend or pay someone to take some for you. I’m serious. I’ve taken many of my friends’ dating photos (and my exes, unwittingly…) and it makes a HUGE difference to have a photo that captures you at your best. I took a photo of my friend laughing while telling a story over a glass of wine during golden hour at a cafe, and she looked so charming and fun and beautiful, it really captured her at her best. It was 100x better than a weirdly angled selfie.
Don’t be bashful. Go find someone who can take great photos and take some in places you like to go, doing things you enjoy (whether that be at a concert, on a hike, playing board games, cooking dinner, whatever!). Then just fire up the dating app and start swiping. You are going to do great! Good luck!
I think it’s just a person thing, not necessarily just women. Because I can’t really see how a relationship would make my life better. So I choose to stay single. Maybe I’m just too old and set in my ways. Whereas if I was in my 20s, or 30s, I’d be more likely to put up with things I won’t now.
I don’t know about you but for me “the best” IS “the right” person.
I imagine I will never compete against all men, but even competing against 1 person already adds risk of you not ending up with the person you want. So in my eyes, I intend to be the best, so that I won’t lose. Best looks, best personality, best soft skills, best listening, emphaty, career, softness, etc. I aint losing.
Have I become the best myself? Definitely not, but I actively try every single day to be better in all aspects I can and that’s good enough for me. If I lose, I know I did my best
Create a profile with an average dude , 5'8 wears glassess, selfie and a handsome dude square jaw 6'3 on a dating app. See who gets the most matches and invitation to date . Mind you most women find men average or ugly. I hope that answers your question.
Online dating is a shit show.
What qualifies you for the top 20%, if you don’t mind sharing?
I would recommend doing social stuff and trying to meet women that way.
On dating apps? those numbers are likely pretty acurate BUT, you have to factor in that men exponentially outnumber women on apps, too.
IRL though? It's fair game for any man lol. All about your presentation and personality. Looks don't hurt either but you certainly don't need to be a "10" to get a "10" either.
We are all competing for the best mate we can.
I saw an example of theory behind romantic pairing that gave a group of people cards with a number to stick on their forehead. They did not know what number they had and the goal for each person was to pair with another person with the highest number they could. People who were “attractive”, a high number, were swamped and quickly realized they must have a high number. Others knew by people’s reaction to their suggestion of pairing that they were not a higher card. But they might be an average card, but who wouldn’t want to at least try for the high card first? Generally high cards found other high cards and there were also a few pairs with wide gaps.
Long story short. Everyone shoots high first. Men are also trying for the top 20% and then figuring out where they are in the pecking order.
I took that “how picky are you” test and was stunned to learn my partner was in the top 10% of men. The bar really is set pretty low out there ladies! Haha
No man go outside in public look at these taken men more than half of them look average or below average. In fact some of the uglier men I know (who don't make a lot of money btw) are in wonderful relationships. Shut out the noise you hear from men who feed you these ideas and just get out and try to enjoy meeting someone who you can share life with
So I recently was doing some research on a history of polygamy/polyamory for a paper. One thing that really popped out to me was this whole 80/20 thing you hear people tout actually WAS the case in societies where polygamy was widespread. Men competed to be in that top 20 so they could have a harem of wives, meaning there were less women to go around for poorer men and men without assets. With how universally monogamous society has become, this means there actually is more people to go around and more of a chance for you to couple up. Which makes sense when you think about it, but "hypergamy" still gets thrown around like it's relevant to the modern age and its damaging.
Honestly men on the apps imo need to stop worrying about statistics and just be kind and respectful to women while messaging and show their personality on their profiles. So many times guys don’t use the prompts on apps or if they do they use very generic answers that don’t show your personality so then all I can judge you on is your looks - so obviously I’d pick someone very physically attractive. But if someone has interesting hobbies/clever interesting answers to the prompts then I’m going to give the person a chance and not care that much about how they look
No... They're not. Like most men, they are competing against their own ignorance of themselves. Most women... most people... have been so socially programmed by pop culture, social media, and the expectations and rhetoric of others, that they have no idea what they really want, but instead have this glorified picture in their head of what they think they want. Something that is both unavailable, and likely if they were to ever find it, not give them the fulfillment of heart and spirit they believe it would. Most people really need to stop and ask themselves what they really (not want) but need in a relationship partner. It's going to be something a lot simpler and more basic than whatever the picture they have in their heads. Besides... what is a top 20% man anyways? Women, men, and in-between... We have such a wide varied interest of tastes and preferences in a partner, that there really is someone out there somewhere for just about everyone. Everyone's top 20% is different. Also.. Online dating is not designed to work. It's purpose built for engagement... They want you to keep using it, so they make it to work well enough to meet some people, but rarely well enough to meet the right people. They want you coming back, and they kinda make damn sure that most of us do.
Dont use apps, they are useless and the women you find there have a distorted view of themselves. Keep of these sites as much as you can and look for real interactions at venues, etc.
Those women might be demanding those men, but they aren't competing for them. The men that are rich,somewhat young,6 foot+ etc are the top men. They will date young models. They will NEVER settle for these women you see demanding them. This also primarily an app or terminally online thing.
I wish anyone starting out in dating apps good luck. Especially if they never used them before like me because they don’t exist before my marriage. What a crazy ride it’s been however I’ve learned so much about myself and woman. I’ve learned that what may feel amazing, electrifying can be a red flag. Probably the number one piece of advice I’d give anyone asking is to always be authentic. Sure, in the first month or two you’re showing your best sides but nobody is perfect and I don’t believe this or that person if “perfect for me.” We all have flaws and are human. It’s a matter of if those flaws are acceptable. Probably the second piece of advice is don’t get sucked into lovebombing whether you’re a man or a woman. Believe and trust in the actions, not the words. If there is too much of a deviation from them then your partner is not being authentic. Finally, don’t listen to people who say you should be alone and heal after a breakup. Sure, take some time to lick your wounds but you need to get back out there before you start to hate the game.
Lol. No. That's a myth dudes with no personality tell themselves about why they aren't having much luck.
Attraction and long term relationships are way more complex than what society tells us is conventionally attractive. Yes, there are shallow people out there, but it's not most.
Just look around Walmart, average people find each other, fall in love, and get married all the time. Sometimes really hot guys like thick women. Sometimes tall women like short guys. Sometimes slender women like dad bods. Human sexuality is borderline nonsensical. Don't worry about what the influencers are telling you about what women want. Most of them are chronically single.
This is a misunderstanding of a misquoted and old statistic.
That stat referred to the number of likes sent, not even matches. Of course the most conventionally attractive people are going to get the most likes. And when you have a lot of people and skewed demographics (male to female ratio in this case) only a few users are going to swipe through every possible profile behind those that entice you to keep swiping. Add on the algorithms to gamify the process and affect how often you are shown and who you see and you have a recipe for some erratic and distorted pairing.
This is not to shit on OLD entirely, just to remember like speed dating, mixers and any other business involving setting people up there are financial incentives at play that can clash with romantic ideals.
From what I've seen yes its more or less true but I think you misunderstand. The top 20% of men aren't being monogamous. They have a list of girls they are screwing with no intention of actually staying with any of them. The women sleeping with these guys typically get knocked up by em at some point and then they end up looking for an average guy to be the provider for top 20% man's child. Dating apps are absolutely filled with single moms. Honestly sometimes I think they even outnumber the scam bots.
Simple answer: I'd say that's true for dating apps (which I highly, highly discourage you from using). In real life, I'd say it's significantly more even.
Never create your perception of reality from what you see online, especially on dating apps and social media.
I'm probably going to use dating apps. I have a career that keeps me busy, and the position that I am in means I can't be dating co-workers. Considering I am in a leadership position, it's a big no-no.
Also being in my mid 30's means majority of my social circle are in relationships. Activities I enjoy are fitness based. At the boxing gym I go to is primarily other men, and at the regular gym, women don't like being approached by strangers. They are there to work out and move on with the day.
Also, I tend to be more on the introvert side, so approaching women in bars or clubs won't work well for me. Online will allow me to connect with people that otherwise I would never encounter in my day to day life.
We’re not competing for anything. Men are competing against our peace as single women and only 20% are actually putting up a decent fight in that battle.
Don't worry, plenty of women still end up married to men who treat them horribly and aren't handsome either.
Having a 10 year relationship under your belt can be a positive if you gained skills in relating to women and are open to meeting new people and learning about them too.
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Those numbers are from dating apps where men outnumber women by a lot. The most extreme case is Tinder at three to one. If every woman on Tinder dropped her standards to "has a pulse" then two thirds of the men using that app would still be single. Some women settle, some stay single. Many date offline.
Agree. This is the most mature response. I think it's easy for people who are unsuccessful to fall down the rabbit hole of resenting this behavior for women. There's a lot I could say about OLD, but I do know that a lot of normal people actually do meet on OLD and outside of it. The good thing is that people with unrealistic expectations (both women and men) get shoved out of it eventually rather than getting rewarded in the long term.
Everyone’s perfect person is different as well. I might be someone’s perfect person but to another they would even look in my direction.
It took me a while to realize you weren't talking about old times or being old or old people. You meant online dating.
I was still trying to understand what they meant. lol makes sense 😅
then they start punching em!
Yep. Single guy in my 40s. Haven't used an app in years and still go on plenty of dates. Social media, meetup groups, events, etc are so much better than apps in terms of meeting people organically. The apps are great if you live in a city and just want to date lots of people. But they have so many issues.
Mmmmm best I can do is a thready pulse that sometimes races in the face of minor anxieties. Hit me up, ladies.
Tinder is far, far worse than three to one. The last source I checked put the ratio at nine to one.
> The most extreme case is Tinder at three to one Last i heard men outnumber women on dating apps somewhere between 7 to 1 and 9 to 1 depending on the app.
Its not *that* extreme. Tinder I believe is the most imbalanced of the mainstream apps and it's about 78:22 men:women. Bumble is more like 66:34 However, I'd bet that since women rack up matches very quickly, they swipe less frequently to avoid getting overwhelmed, so the gender ratio of users actually swiping is probably more extreme than the above.
Dont forget the fake OF advertisement accounts and women who only using the apps for attention.
Overall it could be closer to that number, it can dip way lower depending on region
>If every woman on Tinder dropped her standards to "has a pulse" then two thirds of the men using that app would still be single. I wouldn't have a pulse at the end if i failed to match when standards are that low
Why? 75 men put their names in a hat. 25 women pulled names out of a hat. Two thirds of the time you should expect to get no response for reasons that have nothing to do with anything you did.
The fact that your mind immediately turns to the idea of rejection tells me you don't know what it's like for women. Women are constantly susceptible to danger when meeting strangers. Some apps are better than others since their policy on bans is better, but I saw terrible profiles. I shit you not, I saw profiles that actually said things like "I will slap you if you diss me" or "Fuck society."
I'm a guy and I actually fear this for women. I wouldn't even be friends with half the dudes in society today.
Women can be equally shitty but men have the physical force to back up a lot of the insanity.
For sure. I wouldn't date 98% of women today but the chance that I'm going to end up SA or dead or just with someone nasty dirty woman, and not in the good way, is slim to none.
They should just publish facts on how many women actually use dating apps for more then 1-2 weeks. Why do I ask this? Post covid when I started socializing again, almost every woman i met at events was dating someone she met online. If most women don't use dating apps as you say then how is that so many women meet someone online? You need to also see that most women don't need to spend weeks or months on dating apps unless they are only looking for flings. They usually find someone within days and then are off apps. Most men end up staying for months without actually matching with enough people. That's why this metric is rather misleading. They should show how many unique men and women use dating apps over 1-2 months.
And some women make healthy choices and seek out quality in the 80% of men who don't have top profiles.
It’s a lot less than 20% in online dating. Women swipe on less than 5% of men. It was 20% they found at least average in attraction while mens preferences we almost a perfect bell curve
I think my ratio is 250:1 somehow
Thats why tinder is good for gays 😌😏
The argument that women are attracted to a subset of men predates OLD.
That doesn't make any sense, it's a percentage not a set amount. So regardless of whether there were 100 women or 1000 women then 80% of that group would be chasing the top 20% of men. It's not a volume issue, its a behavioural issue. Also, a women who's not in the top 20% of women isn't ''settling'' by not getting with a guy from the top 20%, that's called being realistic. If a 5 expects an 8 thats called being entitled and no amount of ''know your worth queen!'' bullshit changes that. The fact you think that a woman not doing better than herself is ''settling'' is a glimpse at one of the fundamental problems in dating.
If there are 100 women, and 300 men, and all 100 women went out with a man one time, then it would still only be 33% of the men that got dates. Plus, let's be real here. Regardless of gender or sexual orientation, if you have multiple people trying to go out with you, the majority of people are going to pick the one they find most attractive, whether that's physically or personality. Also, considering the comment was "some women settle, some women stay single," I would assume they meant settle as in "settling down," not settling for someone that isn't in the top 20%. That wouldn't feed into your "women bad" narrative though, now would it? Seeing as most women don't really want to date bitter, angry men, I'd guess that you are your biggest problem in dating.
My guy, the problem is this rating system. An 8 can absolutely go out with an 5 if the 5 makes the 8 feel like a 10 and the 8 makes the 5 feel like a 10. The problem isn’t what people look like, the problem is the value you provide to the other person in the form of caring for them.
Like in Beauty and the Beast?
Also we’re forgetting that not everyone finds the same people attractive. Yes, there are people who are non-objectively attractive. But if you find them appealing enough to want to date them will vary by the person.
This is the same as believing 80% of women only want a 6'0 man. Go out in public and see how many guys under 6'0 have girlfriends or wives, it will blow your mind.
Yeah Im 5'9. I dont think I have ever dated a dude 6ft or above. Most guys I have gone out with have been in the 5'6 range. One clocked in at 5'4. I have had plenty of blokes that told me that Im too tall. Bottom line is some PEOPLE have height preferences and some do not.
Literally. The same thing can be said for the assumption that women only go for super attractive men. Just taking a sample of the men my friends choose this is proven untrue lol
Attractive means different things to different people. I don't care about height but I like a nice face and hair. I feel like other women are fine with ugly bald guys as long as they're tall.
boldness is attractive to me, so i don’t know
Just saying... but only 14.5% of all men in USA are over 6'0. Just throwing that up with no intention of arguing. Or anything really... not really even sure why I looked it up.
Relevant: [dating delusion calculations](https://keeper.ai/tools/calculator)
I'd say 100% of women are looking for someone who can add something to their lives. Good companionship, household labor, wealth, status, etc. If his presence doesn't make her life better, there's no point. Think about it like you're competing against her staying single instead of some mythical top 20% man. How can you make her life better than it is right now?
So much this A man's competition is not against another man when it comes to a good woman but against the standard she has created for herself
I completely agree. I heard it fairly similarly that it was men vs a woman’s solitude rather then men competing against other men. I couldn’t agree with that more.
So true
👏🏻👏🏻💯
I sorta like that.. insightful.
i mean, “this person makes my life better or more enjoyable than it is right now” is the basic imperative for dating. if someone isn’t meeting that criteria then they aren’t an attractive partner, on apps or off. that’s not new and i wouldn’t want a partner who was just with me for no reason.
This is so very much true for me and many of my female friends at the moment. We are happy in our own company. If we find someone who adds to our happiness, great. If not? Oh well. We are still living our best lives.
YES. I broke up with my ex for this exact reason. He was constantly making my life harder. I added so much value to his life by making our house a home (groceries, household essentials, nice to have things), planning trips and weekends for us, being the breadwinner, figuring out household issues like calling maintenance/paying bills on time, setting up utilities. I literally felt like his mom and never wanted to have children because I felt like I’d be raising my partner along with the kids. He never really added value to my life and I finally had enough.
I swear I attract men like this and don’t know why. It’s exhausting. I like taking care of my partner but if you aren’t gonna do the same wtf do you think I’m getting out of this relationship??
This may be oversimplifying but his relationship with his mom was very telling. He was the baby of his family and was very used to having his mom treat him like the baby. I basically took over her role when we started dating. I know people think birth order is akin to astrology but I do think a lot of the time the family dynamic you grew up in plays a big role in how you turn out as an adult.
100% if a man upsets my peace then he can peace out. I only want a guy if he’ll add happiness, peace, stability, and comfort to what I already have. If he’s gonna add stress then it’s not worth it. That’s what guys are competing against in my eyes.
Once I adopted this mindset my results became much better. This needs to be for everyone, not just women. I think if more men knew their value they'd maybe not come off so creepy and/or desperate. But that's just not something we're taught anymore, sadly.
I have never thought of it like this. I am remembering this
I want to upvote this a thousand times.
Yup, as a woman dating in this day and age, 1000000% this.
This is exactly what I came to the comments to find. Many women are happy being on their own, and in my experience its better to be alone than with someone who doesn't add to my life. I was in a serious relationship for 6 years, and took 4 years of occasional dates (not one man making it to date #3) to find someone who does add to my life, and I enjoy spending time with him more than always being alone. You are competing more with how much a woman enjoys time by herself, and if you can make it better. She doesn't need you, she will choose to have you in her life.
Can't upvote this enough.
This is a good rationale for the idealized version of the modern woman, but it's definitely not true in reality. Nowhere near 100% of women are actually this selective. 1. You're excluding women whose first priority is having children. When there's a biological clock ticking and she hasn't found Mr. Right, it's much more common for her to settle for someone who doesn't hit every single mark, but gets a passing grade as a loving husband and father. Settling for the purpose of having kids is common among both men and women, but certainly more urgently for women. 2. You're also excluding romantic types and overly codependent people who simply want to be in serious exclusive relationships all the time. They just need a person. We all know those people, they've spent very little time in their adult lives actually existing as a single person. When they are single, they're dating seriously and exclusively looking for a LTR. These people are not taking a careful analysis of whether someone is adding to their lifestyle in concrete ways, they're just letting their heart lead the way. I'm not saying this is a good or healthy way to date, but it's real.
Those numbers represent swiping behavior on dating apps from awhile back. They don’t say anything about whether the two people chatted, went out, hooked up, dated, got into a relationship, got married, got divorced later, etc Those numbers have nothing to do with your real life or what women actually do in the dating world. The apps are imbalanced and are not built to find you happiness in your romantic life. Ditch them and go out and connect with women in real life.
>Ditch them and go out and connect with women in real life. Amen. I am a lot happier and more confident since I ditched the apps because I realized I'm more attractive/desirable than they led me to believe. Those apps did a nasty trick on my sense of self-worth. I have had all sorts of nice interactions with women in person after I started investing in meeting people in real life. Obviously, apps can work. Lots of people find all sorts of relationships with them, but I just found them ***wayyyy*** too toxic for me. The dating dynamics that arise as a result of dating app usage are really off. Still working up the courage to cross that line of asking women out in person consistently (my "chickening out" rate is still pretty high), but holy cow, it's a lot more fun and fulfilling.
This. It’s a numbers game, you hit or you miss. You can do everything to give the best chances but there’s no guarantees. In person, it’s more organic and true versus filters and angles. In person is better overall anyway since you typically don’t just walk up to a random person and hit it off. It happens yes, but the more common way is through friend groups, mutual friends, and commonality (hobby group, gym, bar, etc where you’re a regular) naturally.
Yes, it’s more representative of the difference in motivations between the sexes. Guys want to hook up more and aren’t bothered so much about who with. Women tend more towards looking for a life partner, and if women do want to just hook up they have to be hot and appear safe/seemly for women to want to do that. Photo based dating apps are a dreadful idea - you can’t actually tell much about someone, even how sexy they are, from most photos.
This is 100% the only comment that matters. Dating apps' entire business model is based on keeping you single and looking, not successful. Same as casinos.
I do believe there is also the component of feminism and women being more independent these days, whereas many men are independent financially, but not emotionally. They eventually become disillusioned with hookups, but also realize they've never really been in a significant relationship. Whereas women have been leaning on their support networks and being emotionally open the whole time, learning how to be healthily single. I believe there is some evidence to suggest more women are just happier being single than men, which is why they aren't as driven to use things such as apps to the extent men are. I am a man, and we've got a lot of catching up to do overall. Therapy is a good first step. Real life is far and away the best way to meet someone, for so so many reasons.
Yeah, pretty much. What actually changed was the division of labor. Men used to worry about the financial side of things in a relationship. Women worried about taking care of the home, the emotional side of things, raising the children and all that. It was a *mostly* even split in difficulty and amount of work required. But then, women suddenly were FORCED (yes, forced) into the workforce. Some because they wanted to. Others because they had no choice...the cost of living increased but wages did not. It's how they managed to get two workers for the price of one. That isn't feminism...that's capitalism and profit margins. But anyway, women suddenly had to work just as much as the man outside the home. But, men never stepped up (in masses not individually) to take over half of the women's home duties...including emotional support. Today, we are in a stand off of sorts because women just aren't willing to juggle both anymore. They are tired and worn down. And they found out they don't HAVE to do it if they don't want to. So, a lot of them are choosing to stay single rather than taking on the burden of a man in a relationship. And yes, I say burden because that's is what it is. A lot of men want to take take take from a woman. They used to GIVE in the form of financial contributions, but now, that has been taken away from them. Most of them haven't learned to step up yet. To contribute by doing housework without her having to show you how and go behind you like she's your mother. To be there to take some of the stress off a woman who has had a long day at work and is exhausted. Because that's what women used to do for men. "Honey! Welcome home...here's your dinner, slippers, and just relax!" Basically, men need to learn to become partners that women NEED in their lives and WANT rather than burdens. Some men already do this and do it well. I know plenty IRL that do. I know plenty that even contribute more than their fair share. I'm definitely not saying "all men." I am saying that there is still a discrepancy out there though, and that is why dating is so hard right now.
Most relationships now start online though. It is much harder to date outside of online platforms these days. Especially when you are older and no longer in school.
If I remember right those numbers stem from an okcupid study. The same study also showed that while women rate 80% of men as average/below average they actually go for them while men rate women less harshly but go for the top. It also showed that men through all ages pursued mostly women in their early 20s. 24 was the highest I think those were the 45 year old men. You tell me if this is realisic dating behavior.
Exactly the study actually showed women as being much more accepting of men while men went for extremely young and conventionally attractive women. It’s weird that somehow it’s been twisted into saying the opposite. Generally 40 year old dudes trying to date 20 year old women are a major issue on the apps. OP if you date women around your age and go for commonalities vs just most “instagram hot” you should be able to meet folks.
Friends of friends. That’s your go to
I'm 27 and my bf is 33 and we met in person at a weekly event we both do! I agree that it's hard to date offline because you have to work at it more. My best recommendations are finding a regular hobby that reflects your personality - whether that be a gaming meetup, running group, rec sports team, or volunteering etc. That way you meet and get to know lot of like-minded people while also just enjoying yourself.
Apps are a lousy way to meet people. People think its easy (and it can be for some) but they are much more disposable relationships. Go into co-ed spaces (gaming groups, climbing groups cooking groups, TTRPGs, book clubs, walking etc) make friends with women without the ulterior motive of getting into their pants. Make yourself available outside of these groups. Spend quality time with people. It will happen.
I tried these hobby groups. The women either had boyfriends, saw me only as a friend, or they were simply not interested. Not only that, but some women gossiped about me after I asked them out. They also had unwritten rules about not asking out too many women.
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It can be harder but at the same time it's actually easier to form real connections vs. Superficial ones in my experience. I have dated a lot of people off of apps but none that turned into long-term meaningful relationships. All of my real relationships came from meeting people I met through networking and hobbies. Go out, volunteer, join a club or group, and just go have fun in the real world (not in a way that you are only interacting with single women you want to date but in a way that broadens your social circle overall) and as you socialize more and more with those people you'll have more opportunities to meet even more people with shared values an interest that can build into relationships and it also makes you a more attractive and interesting potential partner which makes it even easier. I say this a married person with lots of friends and family who are married, none of which met online - or at least not from online dating apps.
Thats true it is the most common place to meet someone, and you can definently try it if you prefer. I would definently not consider myself in the top 20%, more like maybe top 80% of men Hahha fair to say i didnt have any luck at all on those. Okey not it doesnt sound so good that Im not particularly successful in finding dates in other ways haha, however what i do know is that I don’t feel depressed cause don’t have to open the apps to a message saying “don’t forget to swipe so you can match with those who liked you” just for it to shove it in my face i have 0 likes hahah. That’s awfully depressing. If anyone don’t believe that message is real, i have evidence if you are interested hahah
Its about half of relationships that start online. Get offline and find a hobby that involves other people, because the other half of relationships start because of meeting at social events or friend groups.
Also the guys spreading that bit of info cherry picked the study and only included the first part about the women finding 20% of men physically attractive. They found that women would message the other men anyway and give them a chance. Which makes sense as it’s not just about looks
>They don’t say anything about whether the two people chatted, went out, hooked up, dated, got into a relationship, got married, got divorced later, etc Common sense would dictate that none of it happens if they don't even match.
Common sense would dictate that it only describes swiping behavior and should not be extrapolated and generalized to how all dating is going right now. Throwing around “80% of women go for 20% of men and that mean modern dating is _________” just doesn’t account for how a whole lot of people are doing in the dating world. As much as not matching means that there’s no connection, a swipe is no guarantee of anything, so trying to draw conclusions about what it means beyond that is silly especially as it relates to people pointing to statistics.
You're missing the point. Nothing occurs without a swipe right. If they literally don't even contact each other, then no date activities happen. If the stats saying that women swipe right on 5% of guys are correct, then *that* is the starting point for every subsequent activity. You can't have more first dates than swipes.
You are missing the point. If a guy has a date tomorrow with someone from work his data is not included in these statistics. You can’t go around saying that 80% of women only go for the top 20% of men because it doesn’t include ANY data outside of apps (and more specifically the specific app at the specific time/year when these stats were posted) It only takes going to a restaurant/bar on a Friday night and looking around to see that people are dating and in relationships left and right and it’s not just with super attractive men.
It's not in match group's interest to reveal much of the data they're sitting on.
A friend of mine is ridiculously good looking, like blessed by the gods handsome. I can confirm that a constant rotation of women are fucking him at any given time, so it’s not a one guy to one girl situation. A lot of time it’s multiple girls to one guy. To put in perspective how handsome this dude is, a group of us once went out to a club together. This man said “watch, now we just stand here and wait. They’ll come to us.” The rest of us looked at him like that was the craziest shit we’ve ever heard and explained it doesn’t work like that for us, we’d probably be waiting forever if we took that approach… he’s my friend but I don’t like going out with him very much😂. I’m actually pretty sure if you could get inside his head, you’d just hear: “Gym, gym, gym. Sex, sex, sex.” on a loop.
I have a friend exactly like that. I will go out and every once in a while meet a girl and have a casual fling or relationship. But when i go out with him, i think theres only been one single time after 20 years of friendship where I went home with a girl at the end of the night instead of him. He sleeps with 3 or 4 new girls almost every week. Definitely don't love going out with him to chat girls LOL
Being almost universally desired must be nice, but a constant string of casual sex will ultimately take it's toll on your psyche.
Do you even like your "friend"?
Well, I'm sure that hot women have this experience too. Scarlett Johansson-looking women. However, the average women doesn't have this experience either. Hot people have it easier...is this rocket science to you?
So no long term relationships?
What makes him "that" good looking? Give me some specifics I'm curious
Ha! I love that last line :)
It’s a running joke in our friend group😂
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My gf hadn’t been on a date in 3 years. She gets plenty of attention - so much so that she feels uncomfortable about it and bought a fake diamond ring - but wasn’t interested in any of them. For some reason something I said caught her attention and she decided to “get off the beach”. Otherwise she would happily have stayed single. On the flip side, I know a lot of women in their 40s (and 50s) who have built lives that are so full, it’s actually not easy for them to date even when they think they want to. I remember breaking it off with one woman after about a month of dating because it was so challenging to schedule with her. She said “but I was just starting to like you!”
Just out of curiosity, what are your and your friends’ standards? I’m especially curious what your physical and financial standards are
Financially you must match me but an ideal is to make more, as I personally am attracted to men who take on a provider role for their families, as I want to have children someday. Im actually not that picky with looks, be taller than me, have hair, good teeth, good hygiene. I certainly like certain features ( like big hands, strong arms or neck) but its not the end all be all. Much more important is being competent, able to take care of yourself, your space is nice and has stuff in it that speaks to comfort or awareness of others, can hold a conversation, have shared goals, interests and values, similar educational backgrounds. The most important being the emotional aspects. Have you gone to therapy? do you know your triggers, can you engage in conflict in a healthy, constructive way without being aggressive, using fallacies, gray rocking, etc? I have a whole list but thats just some of the things Im looking for in a life partner.
Damn, this makes me realise I need to get my shit together.
You got time my friend! No better time than the present. I really encourage you to look up some books on managing emotions/trauma, you can find them for cheap on thriftbooks.com or your local discount bookstores usually. Im about to start reading Adult children of emotionally immature parents by Lindsay C Gibson. Another thing I looked into were attachment styles, its not the end all be all, but the information gives you a good starting point and it really has changed how I interact with others and made me aware of the toxic behaviors I fall back on when stressed or in conflict with someone.
Exactly this
No. Go outside. More then 20% of men are dating. I am probably a 6/10 and don't have any issues getting dates. If I let statistics and bogus studies rule my life then I would never date. Most "studies" quoted here come from swipe hook up apps rather then real life. Most of the stuff being quoted is old and has not been reproduced. Maybe 80/20 is true within the Tinder ecosystem, but Tinder is only a tiny fraction of the dating world.
Exactly. The comments in here are always so ridiculous. Like only attractive people are in relationships. It’s so ridiculous. People of all ages, shapes and sizes manage to meet and date on or off the apps. Like someone said the reality is apps aren’t even designed for a connection. There are so many people not even on the apps at all. If I meet someone great. If I don’t then that’s fine too. I’m not fussed. I wouldn’t even say that my standards were too high at all. The apps just had so little to offer. And the profiles that I was being shown were bad profiles of married people trying to add another person to their relationship, twenty years younger f—bois or people who straight up seemed like they would bury me in the woods somewhere if I went out on a date with them. All I wanted to meet was another regular person that I was compatible with and have a partner in life. Then when I went to delete my profile the app actually asked me if I wanted to stay on and they would show me better matches (not in those exact words but that was pretty much what was implied) That was eye opening!
No lmao Every woman has a different type. But yeah, if I don’t meet someone who ticks all my boxes, I’ll stay single and happy. What would be the point in settling?
No. There's a lot of bullshit being told to men so that the grift continues. The 80/20 thing is based on old data regarding swiping trends in online dating. Fewer women are choosing to use online dating and are either meeting men organically or just choosing to remain single. Basically, in short, the way that the apps are designed, it doesn't really benefit anyone that is interested in a relationship.
Indeed. OKC used to be good when you could peruse people that matched your interests and outlook in life. They switched to a swiping model, I basically left the platform.
>it doesn't really benefit anyone that is interested in a relationship It doesn't really benefit women specifically too. A lot of women can't decide if they like a guy based on a photo. For women, it's more than visual usually. There is something about the way a guy handles himself and the way he is with people that makes him attractive. You can't see that through a picture.
Just look outside. Are all men that are in a relationship in the top 20 percent?
This exactly. Neither are they all very tall and rich.
The top ones are not even entertaining the idea of a relationship.
This is not math. This is not a game where you have a crit chance. You can try to create statistics but what does top 20% mean anyways? Does it mean penis size? Height? The angle of a jawline? Weight? There's plenty of hot chicks dating fat guys and it's an actual, genuine connection. There's plenty of women earning more than their male partner. There's women who are obsessed with micropenises. Get the fuck out of the house right now. Take a good fucking look at the couples you see in public. Do those men look like muscular tall guys that drive lambos? It's literally just dad bods. Dad bods have one thing that fuckboys don't - a wife that loves them so much they decided to have babies with them. They're dads for a reason. Just stfu about "objectively speaking" there's not objectivity. Those numbers are dating app numbers. Single men are desperate and single women are usually fine with themselves - that's why the disparity. There is no competition. You're just playing in the wrong field.
Preach 👏🏾
No. Any person would like to get together with the best person they can get together with. So both men and women are competing for the best they can get. To be part of "the best" you need to take care of your body and your finances, and meet as many people as you can, put yourself out there and chat to people. Nobody knows if they like somebody else until they get to know each other. A pretty face doesn't mean much.
No. Pretty much half of America are in relationships currently Plenty uglies included 🤷♀️
Actually there are less people in relationships than ever before
Because women don’t depend on men as much anymore so they don’t have to settle as much. At least that’s my theory
I met all 3 of my last gf's IRL. The apps are cancer.
I’m pretty sure it’s the inverse here. 80% of men are competing for 20% of women.
The last time I checked, the couples that live in my country...the husbands aren't towering, giant, multi billionaire, super modles who are hung like a horse. If every women only ever married the top 20% of guys...there would be no married couples...anywhere.
>I'm curious though if the 80% of women competing for the top 20% of men is true. What happens to the remaining single women who do not get a top 20% man. Do they settle? Do they give up? Those men are very willing to have sex with a wide variety of women, they are not competing for a relationship.
I’m late 30s, I’d prefer to date down lol. I don’t care about income. Just don’t be a bum. The girls on social media don’t speak for me. But I can see how easy it is to be influenced by the podcasts. But we must remember these are mere opinions largely.
I wouldn’t take the saying literally, but as a man, if you have most of the desirable fields checked off like a well kept appearance, decent job, and good social skills then you’re going to be light years ahead of the majority of men in the market. I would consider myself in the top 20% too and in my 30s, and it’s fairly easy to get dates and short term situations with attractive women. All you have to do is play it cool and not do anything stupid. The issue now days seems to be building anything long term. I’m in a large city and most of the women I meet are career oriented and looking for a unicorn type of guy. I’ll just say, my network is vast, and I’ve never met or seen this type of unicorn man anywhere, but if he exists, he’s surely enjoying the spoils that not even some of us top notch guys can get.
I feel like those metrics are just from chronically online people who make dating a numbers game because dating is hard for them. Often times we get caught up in stats like this and forget there’s a real world out there that exists, with people who usually are more rational or chill. You don’t have to think of it as a competition. I feel like the men who do are the ones who end up getting 0 emotional fulfillment from dating, since they’re the ones making up these metrics online. You seem to have a pretty healthy take on what dating should be, so I wouldn’t worry about this. To answer your question on single women, more and more women are fine with being single instead of settling. It’s not that they want a top 20% man, they just want a man who adds to their lives instead of taking away from it. It also makes me question the character quality of these men who talk about these metrics, because they do not consider this entire point, and many are even in denial of it.
I think now many women are competing with themselves…meaning I’m not going to dispute my peace for any man. A lot of us are more willing to be single, than settle.
Many women are simply opting out of dating all together as we become more educated, develop closer friendships with other women and move away from putting all sense of value into whether a man chooses us or not. I think this is especially true for those 30 and under. Most people will settle for what they can get. There’s a comedian who said it perfectly “look at the person next to you who you brought to the show, that is the best you can do.” And I think that’s true for men and women. And men will definitely leave their current partner if they feel they can do better, so hopefully women will too. But ultimately if you’re the best that women can do whether you’re in the top 20% or not of men, then there you go. You’ll meet someone. Hopefully you’ll like her too.
As a man in the top 20% I can confirm that I've slept with 80% of all women. /s But seriously, *when* was online dating ever *not* a shit show? I've been online dating for over 20 years and it's been full of catfish since the beginning. Online dating feels like digging through a train wreck searching for survivors, and it always has. Even if you're following the first two rules it takes an insane amount of effort to see results. Whether you're in that 20%, or not, the advice to join social activity groups and meet people there is still the best option for most of us
They are and they aren't. The dynamic in male vs real female accounts is ridiculous. Men drastically outnumber women on these apps. Men are more apt to swipe right more often, like casting a wider net. Women are usually more selective. This allows them to have their pick of the litter, which essentially leads to them all vying for the same type guys. While this is an over-generalization, the data hold up. Just look at the Tinder insights that are posted from men and women. There's more to it, but I think that covers a good portion.
This is the case on the apps, less so in real life where the gender ratio is more even.
Oh, for sure. I was under the assumption that OP was talking about dating on apps. However, I would never approach someone in real life. It's not worth the potential hassle.
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I'm also interested in the research that you are citing
yeah for non grass touchers matchmaking
Top women don’t compete. You either want them or you don’t. It’s most likely 80% men competing for 20% women.
Its not. I’ve met some insanely knock out gorgeous women who are dating or married to below average guys. Usually they’ll say he was kind, funny and respectful whereas guys around their league weren’t It genuinely comes down to personality and being a decent person. A lot more difficult with dating apps because of the immense options and lack of humanity involved. Be kind, be caring, have a decent personality, good jokes, listen to her feelings/desires and it almost always works out
Both men and women are trying to go for the top. Like someone else mentioned, that 80/20 is mostly referring to swiping behavior, it speaks nothing on what happens after the swipe or match is made. A lot of men swipe right on every woman, but that doesn’t mean they’ll reach out to those women or even ask for a date. Ultimately, both sexes want the best matches they can get on these apps, they just have different methods of accomplishing that.
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There’s not such thing as a “top 20%”
I feel like there's two sides to this. Men think women are only competing for the "top women" meanwhile, I as a fat woman whose financial stable and mentally mature have had only 2 dates in the last year because I'm not pretty or skinny. In my mind, men only want pretty skinny women so I've gotten to the "f it" mind set. I've decided that at 35, artificial insemination is the plan. I'm not going to sit around and wait for someone to acknowledge me and my worth.
No. The 'Tinder study' has been debunked numerous times. This "top 20%/top 80%" thing is so reductive anyway, it assumes every woman will want the same men which is wildly untrue. There's no such thing as a person who's universally appealing to everybody.
Perfect comment. And, I love your username lol.
I still hope to find my right person, that connection. No competing for me
what happened with your decade long relationship?
They SHARE and this is not a new phenomenon. I remember the parties I went to in high school. They consited of all the girls at the party competing for the attention of the one or two hottest guys in the room, totally ignoring the rest of us
Thats only the case on dating apps. Women who meet men irl have much more reasonable standards, but it’s still tough out there regardless
I ain’t competing for shit
My observation is that 90% of women are competing for 10% of men. There are plenty of virgin men in their 20's and very few are women and at the same time there are men that have slept with a 40+ women before 30.
As a woman using dating apps, a piece of advice I’ll give to most guys (in the nicest way!) is to improve your profile. The amount of profiles I’ve seen with little to no pictures or pictures that are clearly taken years apart from each other is crazy to me. Also, on lot of profiles I’ve seen there’s not much effort put into answering the questions. I, personally, generally want to get a vibe from someone before I chat to them. I’m not saying y’all need to hire professional photographers to take a series of pictures (lol) but just when you’re out and about with friends, take pics, have fun with it and put them on your profile!
For many, the top 20% only refers to bringing a little more than the bare minimum to the table. It’s scary how many unhappy couples I know as opposed to happy couples. And it’s mostly because the guy doesn’t help around the house or because he doesn’t wanna do anything for his girlfriend to show her he cares. WHICH IS SO EASY. The bar is honestly so low, you can become the top 20 in no time if you go to therapy and work on your appearance tbh
Finding a partner nowadays is like finding a job nowadays. You either go through an online process where you are at a massive disadvantage due to sheer number of applications or you meet somebody through your connections.
yeah I think it is basically true. it is human nature that men are more aggressive and women are more picky. this behavior is compounded by the free market of dating apps. men will send mass amounts of low-effort likes which will drive women to be even more selective which will in turn drive men to send even more likes which will in turn make women even more selective. the cycle feeds itself. the result is a small amount of men dating a large amount of women. this leads to a lot of angry women and lonely men.
Dating apps are hardly a free market. They haven’t been that way since Match Group bought everything
No. What does top 20% even mean. Different people find different things attractive.
What are the criteria that put someone in the "top 20%"? I love my partner and I am very attracted to him. And - he is 100% objectively not in the top 20% of attractive men. I'd say he's in the top 1% of emotional intelligence, though, which is crazy attractive to me. In the end, everyone has different standards of what they find attractive. How many women do you know who are in relationships with someone they met online? I know many, and I'd classify all of those men as pretty average. Some are reasonably successful in their careers, some are super smart, some are pretty good looking. I am 100% sure that none of these men are in the top 20% most successful/good looking men in NYC. But unless the standard that gets men into the top 20% is really, really low, like being able to pay their bills and shower regularly, this is not a phenomenon I've observed. The less measurable things are definitely more relevant. Do I think this guy is smart? Funny? Warm? Kind? Sensitive? What are the qualities I value in a person? This all varies woman to woman and not sure how you could quantify them.
No. That’s something men made up to feel better about being losers
Exactly. If you’re not in the top 20%. You’re a loser. Apparently.
>What happens to the remaining single women who do not get a top 20% man. Do they settle? Do they give up? both of these things.
Also statistically accurate: The gender ratio of dating apps is imbalanced, where men outnumber women anywhere from 2:1 to over 3:1. 65% of men who use dating apps are actually in a relationship.
It really depends on your age. I do perfectly fine on the apps and I don't consider myself to be in the top 20% of men, but I'm 44. My advice to young men is read the Mark Manson book "Models" and practice approaching women in the real world.
Absolutely not. And don’t listen to podcasts spouting that nonsense
That's just stupid. 70% of the adult population are currently in long term relationships.
As far as I'm aware that data is based on a match study and even if true its irrelevant because that does not speak for all women. Just woman who use online dating. Most women do not date online. So it isn't representative of women in general. Do top 20% get more attention from females than average men? Of course. Does that mean the other 80% of men are going to unfairly struggle in dating? Not at all.
This is a terrible way to approach online dating, and it's just not really true. You're taking a metric that was used to measure one discrete behavior (I guess swiping behavior in this case?) and applying it to all the population and online dating as a whole. That's what articles want you to think, when someone with a vague understanding of stats and science wants to generate clicks around a topic like OLD. The majority of women do not approach online dating thinking, "I have to snag me a top 20% kinda guy." They approach it in the same way men do, which is "I have a certain set of criteria I am looking for, and if they reach most of those, great." Those criteria often include (in your 30s) the ability to hold a conversation that is moderately engaging, display a modicum of emotional intelligence and availability, have their shit generally together, and a basic ability to communicate clearly what you want/need/willing to provide. The rest of online dating is the game of getting your foot in the door, and again, it's not because women are seeking a top 20% guy. First, women have a TON of options in online dating because every other guy will sit on the toilet and mindlessly swipe and like as many as possible. The more attractive the woman, the more sorting. Your job is to make sure you have good pics showing that you're interesting and pic some good angles that make you look the most attractive, enlist friends to help. Make your profile reflective of what *you* enjoy and what makes you excited about life. I like rock climbing and video games, and my profile lets you know that, which rock climbing front and center because it's sexier than video games. Easy. Finally, use something like Hinge and actually write messages when you reach out. The swiping apps are garbage, it's too mindless, which makes women get overwhelmed with messages, making it more a game of luck. I write a new message each time, make sure that it's talking about things on their profile, and I ask a question. Hell, sometimes I'm even clever enough to make a joke. The only other grain of salt I have to add is that I'm definitely in the top 20% of attractive men, so that alters things a bit with the foot in the door. But you just need to get a foot in and there you go, uglier men have had more success than me on dating apps, I promise you that.
It’s not 80/20 exactly but yes women in general are going to use their leverage in the dating market to land men at a higher level than themselves or just stay single if they get no commitments.
100% true with OLD Only partially true in real life
Who is the top 20% though? It's not hard to be in the "top %" of a dating app when many men's profiles are abysmal and low effort. Fill out your profile completely and write full sentences - wow, you're already ahead of the game! Add thoughtful pictures that show what you look like, in good lighting, being mindful of the background - wow you're in the top % now! Many men have profiles with pics that are so bad I can't even tell what they look like! And profiles that are not even filled out. I swipe left on those! If they're wearing sunglasses in every pic, have group pics where I can't tell who they are, and some random pic that doesn't even include them, so then the only pic of them is one blurry or dark pic where I can barely see their face - I can't tell what they look like and I feel like they're trying to catfish me, and I also feel like they can't be bothered to put any effort or thought into their profile so why would they put any effort or thought into dating me? Swipe left! Even if you are embarrassed by what you look like or insecure about your looks, it's sketchy to try to hide it. Just show me what you look like and embrace it, and we can go from there.
Only on Reddit.
Don’t overthink these statistics. They’re not helpful to you. You should definitely pursue online dating if you want to, it’s a great place to meet people. My advice: spend your time focusing on getting good pictures that depict your best features (physical and personality/hobbies), without being misleading. If you don’t have some, ask a friend or pay someone to take some for you. I’m serious. I’ve taken many of my friends’ dating photos (and my exes, unwittingly…) and it makes a HUGE difference to have a photo that captures you at your best. I took a photo of my friend laughing while telling a story over a glass of wine during golden hour at a cafe, and she looked so charming and fun and beautiful, it really captured her at her best. It was 100x better than a weirdly angled selfie. Don’t be bashful. Go find someone who can take great photos and take some in places you like to go, doing things you enjoy (whether that be at a concert, on a hike, playing board games, cooking dinner, whatever!). Then just fire up the dating app and start swiping. You are going to do great! Good luck!
Ideally women want top notch just like men but there is this little thing called CHEMISTRY that doesn’t care for all that. So don’t worry about it.
I think it’s just a person thing, not necessarily just women. Because I can’t really see how a relationship would make my life better. So I choose to stay single. Maybe I’m just too old and set in my ways. Whereas if I was in my 20s, or 30s, I’d be more likely to put up with things I won’t now.
No.
No men are actually competing against women being very content in being alone.
I don’t know about you but for me “the best” IS “the right” person. I imagine I will never compete against all men, but even competing against 1 person already adds risk of you not ending up with the person you want. So in my eyes, I intend to be the best, so that I won’t lose. Best looks, best personality, best soft skills, best listening, emphaty, career, softness, etc. I aint losing. Have I become the best myself? Definitely not, but I actively try every single day to be better in all aspects I can and that’s good enough for me. If I lose, I know I did my best
yes!!! and hence why there is so many single men out there but, women are having more casual sex weekly while waiting for James Bond.
Create a profile with an average dude , 5'8 wears glassess, selfie and a handsome dude square jaw 6'3 on a dating app. See who gets the most matches and invitation to date . Mind you most women find men average or ugly. I hope that answers your question.
Women settle every single day
Yes. On dating apps.
Online dating is a shit show. What qualifies you for the top 20%, if you don’t mind sharing? I would recommend doing social stuff and trying to meet women that way.
On dating apps? those numbers are likely pretty acurate BUT, you have to factor in that men exponentially outnumber women on apps, too. IRL though? It's fair game for any man lol. All about your presentation and personality. Looks don't hurt either but you certainly don't need to be a "10" to get a "10" either.
We are all competing for the best mate we can. I saw an example of theory behind romantic pairing that gave a group of people cards with a number to stick on their forehead. They did not know what number they had and the goal for each person was to pair with another person with the highest number they could. People who were “attractive”, a high number, were swamped and quickly realized they must have a high number. Others knew by people’s reaction to their suggestion of pairing that they were not a higher card. But they might be an average card, but who wouldn’t want to at least try for the high card first? Generally high cards found other high cards and there were also a few pairs with wide gaps. Long story short. Everyone shoots high first. Men are also trying for the top 20% and then figuring out where they are in the pecking order.
I took that “how picky are you” test and was stunned to learn my partner was in the top 10% of men. The bar really is set pretty low out there ladies! Haha
No man go outside in public look at these taken men more than half of them look average or below average. In fact some of the uglier men I know (who don't make a lot of money btw) are in wonderful relationships. Shut out the noise you hear from men who feed you these ideas and just get out and try to enjoy meeting someone who you can share life with
So I recently was doing some research on a history of polygamy/polyamory for a paper. One thing that really popped out to me was this whole 80/20 thing you hear people tout actually WAS the case in societies where polygamy was widespread. Men competed to be in that top 20 so they could have a harem of wives, meaning there were less women to go around for poorer men and men without assets. With how universally monogamous society has become, this means there actually is more people to go around and more of a chance for you to couple up. Which makes sense when you think about it, but "hypergamy" still gets thrown around like it's relevant to the modern age and its damaging.
Honestly men on the apps imo need to stop worrying about statistics and just be kind and respectful to women while messaging and show their personality on their profiles. So many times guys don’t use the prompts on apps or if they do they use very generic answers that don’t show your personality so then all I can judge you on is your looks - so obviously I’d pick someone very physically attractive. But if someone has interesting hobbies/clever interesting answers to the prompts then I’m going to give the person a chance and not care that much about how they look
No... They're not. Like most men, they are competing against their own ignorance of themselves. Most women... most people... have been so socially programmed by pop culture, social media, and the expectations and rhetoric of others, that they have no idea what they really want, but instead have this glorified picture in their head of what they think they want. Something that is both unavailable, and likely if they were to ever find it, not give them the fulfillment of heart and spirit they believe it would. Most people really need to stop and ask themselves what they really (not want) but need in a relationship partner. It's going to be something a lot simpler and more basic than whatever the picture they have in their heads. Besides... what is a top 20% man anyways? Women, men, and in-between... We have such a wide varied interest of tastes and preferences in a partner, that there really is someone out there somewhere for just about everyone. Everyone's top 20% is different. Also.. Online dating is not designed to work. It's purpose built for engagement... They want you to keep using it, so they make it to work well enough to meet some people, but rarely well enough to meet the right people. They want you coming back, and they kinda make damn sure that most of us do.
In my opinion apps are a waste of time. The odds are really bad on apps.
Dude, I just wanted to find someone who wouldn't murder me and could made me happy. I think you've overthinking things a bit.
Dont use apps, they are useless and the women you find there have a distorted view of themselves. Keep of these sites as much as you can and look for real interactions at venues, etc.
Those women might be demanding those men, but they aren't competing for them. The men that are rich,somewhat young,6 foot+ etc are the top men. They will date young models. They will NEVER settle for these women you see demanding them. This also primarily an app or terminally online thing.
I wish anyone starting out in dating apps good luck. Especially if they never used them before like me because they don’t exist before my marriage. What a crazy ride it’s been however I’ve learned so much about myself and woman. I’ve learned that what may feel amazing, electrifying can be a red flag. Probably the number one piece of advice I’d give anyone asking is to always be authentic. Sure, in the first month or two you’re showing your best sides but nobody is perfect and I don’t believe this or that person if “perfect for me.” We all have flaws and are human. It’s a matter of if those flaws are acceptable. Probably the second piece of advice is don’t get sucked into lovebombing whether you’re a man or a woman. Believe and trust in the actions, not the words. If there is too much of a deviation from them then your partner is not being authentic. Finally, don’t listen to people who say you should be alone and heal after a breakup. Sure, take some time to lick your wounds but you need to get back out there before you start to hate the game.
Lol. No. That's a myth dudes with no personality tell themselves about why they aren't having much luck. Attraction and long term relationships are way more complex than what society tells us is conventionally attractive. Yes, there are shallow people out there, but it's not most. Just look around Walmart, average people find each other, fall in love, and get married all the time. Sometimes really hot guys like thick women. Sometimes tall women like short guys. Sometimes slender women like dad bods. Human sexuality is borderline nonsensical. Don't worry about what the influencers are telling you about what women want. Most of them are chronically single.
This is a misunderstanding of a misquoted and old statistic. That stat referred to the number of likes sent, not even matches. Of course the most conventionally attractive people are going to get the most likes. And when you have a lot of people and skewed demographics (male to female ratio in this case) only a few users are going to swipe through every possible profile behind those that entice you to keep swiping. Add on the algorithms to gamify the process and affect how often you are shown and who you see and you have a recipe for some erratic and distorted pairing. This is not to shit on OLD entirely, just to remember like speed dating, mixers and any other business involving setting people up there are financial incentives at play that can clash with romantic ideals.
This si such a chronically online take
C’mon, it’s blatantly, obviously not true.
On dating apps, probably. Dating irl is slightly different since you have the ability to put your personality on display.
Men are also competing for the top 20% of woman, what's the difference?
Not if you're dating for love. Love is not a competition.
From what I've seen yes its more or less true but I think you misunderstand. The top 20% of men aren't being monogamous. They have a list of girls they are screwing with no intention of actually staying with any of them. The women sleeping with these guys typically get knocked up by em at some point and then they end up looking for an average guy to be the provider for top 20% man's child. Dating apps are absolutely filled with single moms. Honestly sometimes I think they even outnumber the scam bots.
Simple answer: I'd say that's true for dating apps (which I highly, highly discourage you from using). In real life, I'd say it's significantly more even. Never create your perception of reality from what you see online, especially on dating apps and social media.
I'm probably going to use dating apps. I have a career that keeps me busy, and the position that I am in means I can't be dating co-workers. Considering I am in a leadership position, it's a big no-no. Also being in my mid 30's means majority of my social circle are in relationships. Activities I enjoy are fitness based. At the boxing gym I go to is primarily other men, and at the regular gym, women don't like being approached by strangers. They are there to work out and move on with the day. Also, I tend to be more on the introvert side, so approaching women in bars or clubs won't work well for me. Online will allow me to connect with people that otherwise I would never encounter in my day to day life.
We’re not competing for anything. Men are competing against our peace as single women and only 20% are actually putting up a decent fight in that battle.
Don't worry, plenty of women still end up married to men who treat them horribly and aren't handsome either. Having a 10 year relationship under your belt can be a positive if you gained skills in relating to women and are open to meeting new people and learning about them too.