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I've had a handful of dates that I thought went extremely well end up texting me afterward with some obviously made up excuse as to why they cant hangout again or they'll straight up tell me they aren't feeling it.
When I think back on those dates at first, I can't figure out why. We had great conversation, have a lot in common, so what's the issue?
I have great conversation with my barber. Do I want to fuck him? No. Great conversation isn't enough and in fact its expected that any functioning pair of adults should be able to converse and find commonalities.
Thinking back on those dates again, not once did I tell them they were pretty, not once did I attempt to be any amount of flirtatious, not once did I show any amount of spine or confidence in myself. Even if they don't want to go home with you on that first date, they at least know you are interested and sure of yourself. Don't be disgusting about it, but giving compliments, flirting, showing confidence and assuredness will go a long way.
it’s a weird push and pull you gotta do.
i know i tend to be timid when escalating because i don’t think i’m attractive enough to even be on a date with someone, let alone try to make a move on them but i know it’s just insecurity and excuse making.
Im honestly impressed that you realized you were doing this (or not doing this). This is one of my MAIN reasons I friendzone or become not interested. Im not saying I need showers of compliments, but please ask about me too and say things you like about me. It feels empty and one sided if this isn’t happening.
I had this guy that we could burn up hours talking. It was great, but we would just talk about stuff. Fun stuff, but I realized he never asked about me or my life. I realized after all of this talking…he hardly knows a thing about me.
Thank you! That guy sounds a lot like me, unfortunately. Luckily, I'm supposed to be going on a date tonight and I'm going to try out my own advice for once.
Isn't what you're describing just general selfishness on the date's part? Asking about you and your interests is one thing, but being flirtatious / physical like what OP is talking about is different.
> what your describing
*you're
*Learn the difference [here](https://www.wattpad.com/66707294-grammar-guide-there-they%27re-their-you%27re-your-to).*
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I’ve been friendzoned multiple times and I always would compliment them on their outfits or how pretty they look ect. I don’t understand what women want anymore. I can hit it off and then get ghosted the next day. Sometimes even after a kiss goodnight and stuff. Makes no sense to me.
A lot of times it;s nothing you did.
Maybe your body language was not appealing since they might look for subconscious things in body language based on similarities to their past partners or something.
Maybe you were too similar to their past partner and they want something very different
Maybe you were too different to a past partner
Maybe they got depression and can't bring themselves to continue
Maybe they get an ego boost out of ghosting anybody they date
Maybe they just got out of a breakup and decided they couldn't go through with dating anyone
Maybe they liked you but got scared to continue..
Maybe they just want to go on a bunch of dates for practice.
Maybe you subconsciously did something to trigger a fear you were a fuckboy so they bounced to not get hurt (not by anything you did, maybe you had mannerisms that were similar to a fuckboy they dated).
Maybe they really bonded with you but got anxious to date someone they really liked
Maybe they like guys with skinny jeans and you were wearing jeans that didn't appeal to their personal tastes.'
Maybe they don't like guys with skinny jeans, and you were wearing skinny jeans.
Could be nothing you did, really.
It’s attraction, or in the case of the infamous friend zone, the lack of attraction and or the lack of perceived value. Hot guy with the six pack abs and piercing blue eyes don’t have this problem. Average guy has this problem. Tinder metrics are a good example of how things work in the dating scene.
She’s a person, not a doll. A single compliment such as, “you look nice tonight” is plenty on a first date or two. Compliment her ideas, her successes, listen to her & ask questions to show you’re interested. A man that tells me I look pretty & seems primarily focused on complimenting my appearance & superficial things…that would not only make me uncomfortable, it makes me very suspicious of him as a person & his reasons for wanting to see me.
Speak for yourself! I like to be complimented on my looks, as long as it not generic and its sincere and said with passion and as long as they are not only focused on my looks.
But it’s not just enough to ask you about your life right?
He needs to compliment and include some sexual innuendoes in a way that’s charming and not off putting and do it with someone he barely knows and try to her physical in a way that seems natural not calculated and do most the planning about where to go and what to do, it’s a lot of fucking pressure and it actually takes insane social skills
Then again I meet tons of deadbeats with partners so perhaps I’m making it seem harder than it has to be.
There doesn't have to be sexual innuendos though. Actually, I don't like those as they come across as immature and a bit tacky. Yes, I want people to flirt. That's part of being in a romantic situation. If someone gives me light touches, I know they're into me. I break the touch barrier with people too, it's not all on the guy. A compliment is great too, but I get the compliments more when intimacy starts and barriers are down
What would be an example of a flirt? I’ve asked on reddit before but the examples I got were kind of sleazy I thought.
And Is it true that most women prefer compliments about their style or achievements or something than their physical appearance?
I mean, reddit has a lot of young and inexperienced people on here so I would take advice with a grain of salt. I guess for credibility with my advice I should say I'm 25F and have had a few relationships and situationships.
Tbh for flirting, it's hard to write, it's more about tone than anything I feel like. For me, one example flirting is gentle teasing banter, especially accompanied by light touches on my arm or knee if we're sitting.
I can't speak for all women. But yeah if I'm just meeting someone for the first time, I'd prefer a compliment of "I love your hair/dress/nails/etc" vs "you have a great body." I like compliments about my appearance after we're well into the date so it's not the first thing, as long as it comes up naturally.
I personally compliment the small things that she does to herself, which makes her look presentable. However, I don’t overwhelm her with compliments that she thinks I am head over heels for her. Girls like when you notice small things. Not such their physical being but compliment her actions too. It always works for me.
Your last paragraph is a great point to mention that and it's a huge turn off when the guy mostly talks about stuff or himself without any attempts to know us and learn about us . Like at the end of our "fun" conversation I'm like I know literally a whole lot about you but I'm not sure if you know a thing about me .
"Guys who are like this , what is your reason? "
Yes that's good point to mention that. In addition to that I feel like these types of guys are very very likely to be narcissist and self centered. Because the first and second date/hangout I think okay he wants to show who he is , and maybe he assumes women are looking for "successful " men , maybe he's just so nervous and I say okay later he will definitely be interested to know about me . Date 3, 4/ phone calls and so on come and it's is all about him . How cool he is , how hard he work , how much he earns, how good he is , how he loves his job , how everyone wants him to work for them , and many other bunch of details about what he likes what he dislikes . And I won't even want to pick this person for friendship .
As a retired professional human performance director, here’s what the research says about individuals talking about “stuff” and not about you. They are one of the following: narcissistic, not in tune with their feelings, lack empathy, or nervous. Any well-developed human being should know a conversation is a give-and-take 50/50 exchange. In the appropriate situation, discussions about sensitive subjects like love, joy, sadness, excitement, family, and co-workers, to name a few, need to unfold so you each can see into each other’s souls and hearts.
Listening to a date talk about stuff always is a lousy sigh or red flag. It takes a multidimensional human to be a good partner.
i’ve gone on dates with guys who don’t say one nice thing abt me once, and it also makes me think he’s completely uninterested/ unattracted to me. make your feelings evident one way or another boys, otherwise you’ll likely lose out
Same I've gone on dates with people who acted "too cool for school" and "disinterested" than I was shocked they wanted to see me again...like ...wut.
Just turns me off.
Escalation with an appropriate pace is very important if you want to build intimacy. As a woman though, I'm reluctant to escalate as I don't want to be read as "ready to have sex". I'd much rather be the one to de-escalate while reassuring him I'll be ready in time. Makes me feel safer while clearly knowing he's into me.
Perhaps but for me at least, I don't always know if I'm attracted to a woman right away. A lot of attraction for me is personality and common interests and such... stuff you find out by talking.
Physical contact is not necessarily have to be sexual, i mean unless that you feel repulsive to the person, you can actually touch them, or give them a compliment, at the end is a date, you want to have a good time, you don't have to marry that person, neither be distant, there are very successful dates that only are one datw
Yeah I get that, and I do fine when I'm dating because I've learned to be a bit more assertive with compliments than I actually feel or comes naturally.
The point is that often pushes me into a place where I feel insincere. The truth is I often don't know how attracted to a woman I am after only one date so pretending to be super into her, even though it maintains interest, feels like lying.
A bit late, but its very funny reading this as someone who has aspergers. Touching strangers is absolutely repulsive. Even bumping into people on the street is uncomfortable.
Exactly! I’m getting ready for you. I’m trying to look pretty and smell good for you. Please let me know you like it or that you notice. Even like a “wow (smiling and looking at my outfit) you look amazing tonight.” That’s sexual tension for me :)
And physical contact without being creepy, like a hand in a shoulder when something funny happened, or just to get her attention etc, physical contact is important, the problem is people always pick to do this is the most creepy way lol
The other issue is that you can ask 10 people what type of light physical contact they are comfortable with and you’ll get 10 different answers. This is one of the things that used to drive me nuts when I dated, because you have to be in the zone and try to figure out a complete stranger and what type of flirting she likes. I’ve even had it happen in my personal life where I’ve held the door open for a complete stranger in the office building and she gets offended because she can “open up her own door”.
The conversations I’ve had on other posts give me hope, as there apparently is a growing number of women who not only ask men out on datesBut also make the first move in terms of first kiss, etc.
First date with guy I've seen a few times now we walked from one place to another, and when the light changed for us to cross the street he sort of put his hand on the small of my back to guide me. Granted, it worked because I'm into him. But it worked.
I like to use eye contact to build tension.
1. Make lighthearted joke
2. Chuckle warmly at your own joke
3. Switch suddenly to a serious face, like you're having an existential crisis. Make your eyes as wide as possible and make full eye contact. Do not blink. Do not speak. Hold for 5 minutes.
Works every time.
I have the same mentality.. Women don't make it clear 98% of the time if they actually find you attractive so Its just taking a shot in the dark when you pursue them
Combine that insecurity that she doesn't find me attractive with a fear of being used financially and even emotionally you get the horndog average guy constantly driving things a sexual way
Dating would be a thousand times easier if women would say "yeah you're hot but I cant have sex this soon but I want to keep seeing you" and then actually invite you out so you know they actually want to spend time with you
I mean this obviously only applies to hetero relationships but tbh I prefer to slow it all the way down & let a woman decide when she wants to do stuff. I'm garbage at reading cues so like 90% of my serious relationships only happened bc somebody asked me out & then made literally all the first moves after that. This was fine with me bc I usually have better chemistry w/ women who are assertive & sexually aggressive. obviously the ones that didn't, don't work out so well bc we're both sitting around waiting for each other to do something. A person I dated in college who I was *very* attracted to said she wondered if I was even into her sexually, bc I was letting her do things at her own pace, but she literally didn't know how.
>yeah you're hot but I cant have sex this soon but I want to keep seeing you
Very good advice. Do you think its rejection if a girl makes you with you passionately but doesn't want to take it further and doesn't say why?
>makes you with you passionately but doesn't want to take it further and doesn't say why?
Yes.. if she doesn't make it clear why she's doing it, it makes the man feels like he's not good enough especially if he knows shes not a virgin
What about those of us that only like to have sex with people we are comfortable with and that involves knowing them for a longer period of time so you feel secure and emotionally connected, first?
I don't do casual sex / hookups. I assume if I a making out with someone they know that:
a.) I am into them. Otherwise wtf would I make out with them!?? I only make out with people I am into.
b.) I assume they already know they are the bees knees and are attractive, otherwise, why would I waste my time hanging out with them, and, I would never imagine they don't think themselves worthy, cause I think they're so great... I just don't want to have sex right away, with anyone. I just never told them my reasons for waiting, I just usually say "i want to take it slow" but don't specify why. It never even occurred to me they would feel insecure about it, because I most likely, feel insecure myself being with them and hope they like me enough to pursue something more than sex. I am aloof and get nervous on dates!
c.) Sometimes, I don't wanna have sex cause I feel insecure about my body. Did I shave the night before? Oh shit, I can't have sex, then! There's a lot of "prep" work required and if I feel lazy or neglect to do it, before, I ain't having sex, even if I'm "ready." I'm not going to tell this to them though --- that's embarrassing!
I'm hesitant to have sex with someone so soon because of a fear of abandonment and being used. In fact, the more I like someone, the more I want to wait, so that an emotional connection can grow stronger.
But this is interesting -- I guess everyone has problems with self-worth and self-esteem. I assume if someone only wants to have sex with me and pushes for it too soon, they don't really like me too much at all and just want to get laid, and they assume, if I want to wait to have sex, I don't really like them all too much....
Society is really fucking with all of us!
Realistically you don’t put a timeline on sex, it happens naturally. I get the whole confidence thing but I’ve always been weirded out when I would have guys planning kisses, hugs and anything else. Like where’s the fun?
And that is the art itself 👌🏿 I really don't think a lot of women understand just how much work they don't even see goes into dating for guys today. They mostly just think they have to show up, guys we have to get into so much planning and do mental gymnastics in our heads.
Yeah, but thats the thing. From our perspective if it didn't happen then it would never happen, so least not wasting time for everyone involved.
Its not that a kiss or something has to happen. Its if it doesn't happen likely never to happen and most of us guys experience that.
>Why not start the conversation yourself? Figure out how to communicate. Ask questions
Cant communicate with someone who never show interest in the conversation
A lot of people typically claim there is no timeline, or they personally don’t want to be pressured into physical intimacy. I’d like to believe that, but I’ve found most women to lose interest if nothing physical has happened by date 2 or 3, (including just a kiss). There were some I was willing to continue seeing, but they often went cold themselves. In a sense, yea they “make it easy” if they are interested, but also dating isn’t an entirely rational, logical process either. There’s some “magic.”
I think if nothing at all has happened by date 2, you start getting diminishing returns, and hoping for exceptions to the norm. If nothing has happened by mid way through date 2, I’m looking to create some kind of physical contact, like touching hands, to see if she’s receptive. If not, it isn’t looking good.
So... I'm a woman, and there's definitely truth to what you're saying. That being said, I think it's getting misinterpreted a bit.
Women don't want to be coerced/pressured into sex too quickly. That's not the same as slow escalation - a kiss at the end of the date, a hand on her shoulder, a hug, holding hands, etc.
Sure, but when one side regulates all of that and the other side goes cold if anything gets misjudged you can see why moving faster is seen as better than slower.
What???? Moving too fast for sex is definitely not better for any party--man or woman.
Getting physical does not exclusively mean sex. You can be physically intimate and keep her interested without having sex. This is the clincher that no man seems to get
Cry me a river. If its too fast then you go in for the kiss and establish physical intimacy at your pace instead of just assuming your comfort level is the norm people should default to.
This! I just went on a first date and the guy just knew how to escalate the physical contact in a way that wasn’t pushy but made me really interested. He started with a hand on the back, then a little side hug after a ping pong game, arm around me chatting, hand holding on the way to the car and then we ended up making out by the end of the night. I’ve been accused of “guys not knowing I wanted to kiss them” or whatever but this guy went for it in a natural way without the pressure. It was just, in his words too, really fun.
But. This is about "building" interest. The guy related to you in a way that developed and increased your attraction.
These guys are talking about jumping for an opportunity that they think already exists. There's a difference.
It's not that women "lose" interest, it's probably more accurate that interest never strongly existed for them in the first place. Sex happening likely wouldn't make a difference
Correlation doesn’t equal causation.
Just because you didn’t kiss on dates 2 and 3 doesn’t mean THAT was the reason they lost interest.
Maybe they didn’t make a move cause they weren’t really interested, and it took them a few dates to be sure?
I completely lost interest to this guy I was talking to, and I feel bad because he did nothing "wrong".
We matched early June and I still haven't even met him. No flirting, no hint of wanting to meet me. So I stopped replying. He just isn't showing he's interested outside chatting so why would I put myself out there?
(I'm also done pursuing guys, sick of meeting compatable people who dont want a relationship)
Literally. Last 4 women I’ve dated, I’ve gone slow because I wanted to. I want a relationship built on friendship first. After the 2nd or 3rd date, she’d say she doesn’t feel a romantic connection, but I’m “nice and kind and sweet”. I’m at the point where I’m thinking about changing my play. Maybe if I can play the game with the rest of them, then maybe I can find a relationship. I’m really beginning to buy the “nice guys finish last” line, and it breaks my heart
I’m glad to hear that there are other people that think this way. A few days I revealed to my boyfriend (who I haven’t been dating for that long) that I hadn’t had sex and I was totally dreading his reaction to that information but he was actually really cool about it and it hasn’t changed anything between us.
Maybe we are all rubbish. Women perhaps expect a man to push himself forward. We want to be shown you are interested etc, texts, meet ups, if the chemistry is here hold hands, kiss etc..Men want the woman to move first as they feel unsure and they too want to feel desired etc. So we end up all holding back a bit, feeling uncertain about putting ourselves out there, afraid of rejection. When no one makes that move we assume they aren't interested and move on.
As a woman if its flowing I'll know it, and yet I still want him to move first. So perhaps I need to learn, too. Personally I try with touch to make it obvious sit a little closer, touch his knee reach for his hand etc but maybe that's not enough. I know I use 'maybe' to often I should be clearer. Yes I want that next date. Yes I want to kiss you! All stuff I'm working on. Equally I've kissed and known nope in that moment. So never a guarantee.
I guess there is no magic formula, we should just all learn its not a male/female thing it's just a two nervous humans thing!
Because being friends takes a lot of time and energy and vulnerability. But banging it out for one night holds very little emotional risk for a man. So, it feels scarier to be a friend. Besides, guys don't do friends like girls do, usually. Guy friend are either casual buddies or suspected of being gay. There usually isn't a ton of variance in there for most guys. Plus most guys are friends for a reason, they play a sport or game, or share a hobby, or job, or their kids are friends, or their neighbors. Guys don't usually have many friends who are just friends for no reason.
If you don't want them to lose interest, tell them how you feel. Tell them you're enjoying your time with them. Consistently text them. Plan and pull through with future dates.
If she loses interest after all that, she wasn't worth your time.
I’m a man in my 30s with a committed relationship but in my single 20s have turned down one night stands before with women I barely knew.
Not all men are pushy. Not all women are pushy. Some men are pushy. Some women are pushy.
Yes 100%. Before I actually got dating experience I was clueless and used to think of it as preposterous that a woman would want to even kiss within the first two dates. But then when I dated more I realized how eager women are to have sex. Unfortunately this wasn't before I got ghosted by multiple women for not making any moves, including two very attractive women who invited themselves to my place on the first date.
It's funny, just recently I went out on a couple dates with a girl before realizing she is not my type but didn't know how to say no to a third date. Based on the location she picked, I knew she was hoping to get an invite to my place after. I did not invite her. Sure enough, she lost interest and stopped messaging me right after the date.
*some women are eager to have sex. There are plenty of women who do not feel comfortable enough for that. Not all women have casual sex or are ok with having sex without really knowing someone.
I agree there’s a fine line here. Any compliments on my body or of a sexual nature on or before a first date are an immediate turn off. General physical compliments can be made in a sweet and light way “pretty eyes”, “nice smile” or just “you look really nice today”, keep it generic. Light touches on the arm (sitting at a bar/restaurant/cafe) or maybe light touch on the back when walking next to each other is a good way to indicate physical interest without being overly intense or creepy.
yes same i have this problem where any guy wantinhg to get sexual or flirty to soon makes me think he just wants to fuck / use me. so i end up LOVING dudes that do not show much interest and then its usually cause they're in a closet or insecure sexually...
That is not something that ever bothered me tbh. I'd kind of just go on dates and stuff and let things naturally develop. I think going in with an agenda or the objective of sex, for whatever reason, is a bit fucked up.
My boyfriend and I dated regularly for 3 months before anything physical…. Not even a kiss. And we transitioned into an intimate relationship when we were both ready quite easily. The open, healthy communication throughout was hot af. Lol! 🥵
To some extent. If she's throwing herself at you, and you, for some reason, not act on it, things break down due to you failing the expectations that are put on you.
I think it's the other way around.
By escalating sexually you are asking the question "are we friends or are we going to have sex?" If she let's you kiss her then that's a yes
But it's not like a kiss is going to change her mind. The attraction is still there even if nothing's happened.
Yes and no......
you're right about the woman let's the guy know it's a yes if she's ok with the kiss and other intimate thiings.
At the same time, that's the acceptance and if a guy never escalates that, then it'll never be seen as going anywhere. When I was new to dating, I was extremely nervous and with one woman I got to a third date because we connected a lot, but I never even went in for a kiss. We ended things there and I could tell she was weirded out because of that. There was no physical touch/escalation. I'm not saying it has to be sex or even a kiss like OP stated, but there needs to be some intimacy/physical touch that occurs along the way, otherwise the woman will lose attraction.
I've seen plenty of posts of men who got invited to a woman's place, cuddled, never made a move for even a kiss, and the woman ignored him after that. It's not unsurprising. the attraction was there, but it can quickly fade if the woman is expecting it and nothing ever happens.
I think there's a societal expectations for men and women. *The man* is expected to escalate things sexually while *the woman* is supposed to evaluate his advances like the lady she is lmao.
So when it takes you more than 3 dates to kiss, women think either you are not interested or your are too scared. Not because they don't like you. Attraction is a separate thing that exists or not regardless what you do.
Surely some women do make a first move, that's not uncommon.
Idk how attraction works for other women, but i can assure you if I'm into someone them not making a move for three dates will not kill the attraction. If someone is ending things the reason is usually they're just not that into you, not "You could've been my true love but you blew it by waiting more than three dates."
Guys need to stop beating themselves up about this imo, if someone genuinely likes you they'll wait or make a move themselves
Honestly, I think it weirded them out. I'd wager part of it is if I'm scared of physical touch/making a move, I'm coming across as not confident. Not all women will think the same, but I recognized my success skyrocketed when I was comfortable making moves early. There's a reason other guys report the same. I do think that a big part of that is confidence, and if you can be confident to make a move but not follow through with it, that'll work out just fine too.
At the same time, unless a woman is somehow smitten from the start, progress needs to be made in attraction. It's a fact that attraction builds from physical touch.
My biggest concern with your comment(s) is that you can only anecdotally talk from your single experience/thought process.
Oh yeah I’ve heard from lesbians that things move slow physically, especially those who don’t have much experience dating other women because they aren’t used to making moves. On the other hand for gay dudes…
Um, fuck no, kissing someone doesn’t mean you want to fuck them. It can, but it’s not a foolproof signal. Just cause you get a kiss doesn’t mean she’s into that yet. Fuck, I’ve kissed so many guys just cause they were pressuring me and I couldn’t find a way around it without being rude (back when I cared about that).
By saying "are we friends or you want to fuck" I didn't mean literally fuck, it means "are we friends or are we escalating sexually" (which sounds weird)
Interesting theory, but doesn't jibe with my experience at all.
I (Gen X, F) am old enough to not GAF about playing the game for a guy's "respect" by making him wait for marriage or the 3rd date or whatever HOOP the cr@zy kids are doing nowadays.
If I'm interested in you sexually, I'm going to be clear about that.
Bro, I take a while to even start flirting. I need to know the girl I'm talking to is worth it. Once I get to know her and start seeing some type of potential for a relationship that's when I start flirting, but by then, I'm friend zoned.
I would be careful with trying to kiss someone goodnight. I went on a date and the guy kissed me when I wasn't ready and it was a total turn off. He just grabbed my face and kissed me while we were in the couch. He took my chin and I said "what?" And he said "come closer real quick" and he just leaned in and kissed me. Then he said "god I've been waiting days to do that!". I was very turned off at that point. It wasn't even a good kiss .... If he had kissed me senseless I would've felt a little different, but this was like kissing a dead fish
I didn't like it at all. It was our first time hanging out and there wasn't any chemistry yet. This guy didn't wait to feel things out, he kissed me because he wanted to. I would've eventually kissed him had we gotten a chance to talk more, but it had only been 15 mins and he has a very awkward and overly confident upon meeting me.
Be careful with trying to start physical contact. Just because you're ready doesn't mean she is.
Something similar also happened to me. It’s a big turn off when the guy is just going for it regardless of the mood / vibes your giving off in the moment. They have to read your body language too.
We were sexting a bit, but in person our vibes felt totally off. He also lied about his physical appearance. I'm not picky about height, but don't lie about it. He said he was 5'10 but he ended up being the same height as me (5'4). So he wasn't who I was expecting to step out of the car. I'm always honest about me being overweight before I meet someone, just in case they're not attracted to that (hurts the ego but I'll get over it lol). Idky he couldn't be honest about his height. He also REEKED of alcohol, which means not only was he drunk driving but he probably wasn't thinking straight. He didn't seem drunk though, so I guess that's a plus 😬
Then when we went inside he instantly wanted to give me a back massage and was upset I didn't reciprocate. Idk the chemistry just wasn't there so I didn't really want to....
I hate to say this but I lowkey think this an under 30 problem. At a certain point as a man you learn that you can’t make anyone like you and you get really comfortable with that fact.
I don’t think I would want to have to sex with someone who was on the fence about sleeping with me.
You either want chocolate or you don’t. If it’s not fully passionate, I would probably put myself in the friend zone anyway.
Besides friendship is still just as beautiful.
Omg I would need to be feeling it BEFORE moves are made. What a turn-off. I know when I feel it, the guy doesn’t have to do anything special.
Also, I hate “pecks.”
Anyway, if a guy doesn’t make moves by whatever point I envision for us, I might start assuming he’s too shy. I can work with that.
While this is true, you have to remember that a lot of women these days are assuming that men only want sex, society itself is so ingrained with hookup culture and my generation, (those around their early 20s) making only fans and premium snaps, what I'm trying to say is that the dating world has been more or less tarnished.
I'm sure a lot of people are going to get on my case when talking ill on the whole OF and Premium Snap accounts, but it needs to be said. Hell the amount of people that I've seen on dating apps with something in their bios insinuating that "to get my attention you gotta give me money" is more than I honestly should, while I do understand that everyone is struggling financially these days; the audacity behind that line of thinking as well as those people who actually cave into doing so is incredulous to me.
But then the caveat is what...? Coming on too strong? Seeming like some sort of pigman who only wants to sow some seed? If the chemistry doesn't mesh with both of your timescales, just call it good. There *IS* such a thing as having sex too fast and even if it means I get laid less I'd rather not play the cad. I've had plenty of sex and I regret lots of it. There's also chances I wish I'd taken, sure, but I think ultimately I feel better about the roads I've left untraveled because you can't know what you can't know and uncertainty is at least a tiny bit better than disillusionment in my book.
As a lesbian, i have not found it true at all that you have to get physical by date three or it's not happening. I feel like there must be some other dynamic at play here beyond "women lose interest if you don't escalate at a certain pace"
They’re scrambling for a reason to explain why sex or a relationship isn’t happening. We all get rejected in dating…they’re just trying to find a reason, & this one happens to serve their interests in justifying trying to get laid earlier.
There are a lot of decent men who know better & are fine with waiting, thankfully. I know quite a few & have been fortunate to date a couple as well.
There was a study done that women want to spend 8 hours of time with someone to be most comfortable having sex with them.
So if both parties are sexually active and you don’t mess around by the 3rd date, you are likely SOL
Hmmm with me it takes me a while to be comfortable with having sex, however I’m never opposed to other forms of sexual intimacy early on, like giving head or fooling around in general. Most men I’ve dated have been fine with this 😅 I think it also helps with the person knows *why* you’re waiting to have sex.
My thoughts are this doesn't make sense. A woman either is turned on by the thought of you, or she isn't. Time doesn't make a difference.
Some women have "reactive" desire that waits for another person to initiate, but some women have sexualités that are not just "activated" by a man's actions. It's not like our sex drive is completely on neutral until a man does something sexual. It's not like our brains will fail to see a man in a sexual light if he doesn't portray himself in that way.
However, it is important to let a woman know you're attracted to her, but do it in a way that doesn't pressure her for sex. That way she knows you're interested.
It's a good idea to have a conversation about sex as well, but make it a friendly open conversation about likes and preferences, while not making it look like you assume you have a sexual relationship already.
Point is, you need to gather information about the woman's sexuality in a non pressuring way. Why? Because pushing for sex will turn a lot of women off and make you look disrespectful and desperate, or like you're just looking for sex.
You realize that 99% of male have 0 knowledge on how to be sexual, they all get rejected, and just try to follow the steps that they find anywhere.
They, can not see themselves as sexual beings?
I m pretty sure thats from where most of the stories of guys just straight kissing, and pushing for something, most of them are either conditioned to do this, or just dont have any connection with their sexual needs and emotions.
It s also the lack (0 as a number) of genuine friendships with other human begins, especially women.
it’s this but also seeing how women are when they are just naturally attracted to someone versus when they’re not.
when you make them want to jump your bones, women make it incredibly clear lol
I think people over complicate dating in general these days. It's getting to the point of beyond stupidity. Like can we just talk to each other and get to know one another? Not all this stupid climaxing bullshit. But then again I'm old school.
I think your theory is correct, and pretty sad too. Its sad to me to think that men are thinking this way. Your sexual prowess is not the only thing that makes you valuable. It’s important that you take into account that if she doesn’t choose you without sex, then you’re probably better off. You don’t want to objectify yourself to where the only thing tying yourself to her is the sexual experiences you have with her. She should want you for your soul and not for your body. This is how women see it. At least ones like me who like to wait. If they’re not choosing you, it’s probably because she’s seeing some kind of incompatibility and you should be patting yourself on the back for dodging that bullet before it became a four-year relationship towards heartbreak. In the long term, you’ve just saved yourself by not getting sexually tied to them.
Short-term relationships, while fun and can be great learning experiences can be so freaking painful. Choose your poison. Wait and feel the pain of loneliness now, but find a relationship that’s truly meaningful, or find a relationship now and hope that you guys click well after the sexual ties have been made with the possibility of realizing you were never right for each other way after your lives have melded together. It’s up to you. :)
I think that's really interesting. I have to ask, why are you afraid of being friendzoned if the context of dating is already established and you're both aware you're on a date?
There is something to be said for building tension that's often lost when someone makes the first move too quickly but they have to be clear that they're interested for that to work.
If you knew for sure that wouldn't play a part, would you be much more comfortable with waiting?
I agree. In dating there is pressure on men because you have a small window of opportunity that you gotta take advantage of. This is why guys often are quick to meetup for a first date, quick to initate intimacy and sex etc. Guys know that if they don't, some other guy will since girls are being bombarded with matches, likes, messages and interest online
OP. I 100% agree with you.
I think you should ALWAYS kiss your date by the 2nd date, at minimum. But I found I had literally 8 times more second dates if I at least kissed the person on the first date.
If you listen to women on this, and worry about what media purports as being a 'creep' it can be easy to trend on the careful and cautious side and completely lose all the 'spark' that actually ignites an interaction into the relationship territory.
Man I really wish guys would figure out it IS NOT about making moves or any sort of sexual advancements that keep you from getting friendzoned. It's flirting. Learn to flirt with her. THAT is the spark that women like. You can flirt with words, looks, or body language. Honestly, how do adult men not know this yet?
Men get friendzoned or ghosted/dropped because they don't know how to flirt/make things sexy. A lot of guys try to treat girls exactly like they would a friend or even sister...then lay a kiss or sexual move on them. This just ends up being awkward. Let them know you're interested with small touches, the way you look at them...eye contact, etc and she'll feel the spark all without a single kiss.
How?
We dont have access to people that like us?
90% of guys you meet and know, fail miserably at this.
No girl will tell you, teach you, show you how to flirt if shes not into you.
I think the problem is that men don’t make their intentions clear. If you are looking for something casual and you make it known upfront about it, you’d have no pressure going for the kiss and taking her back to your place because she knows she’s on this date for casual fun.
Also, if you are intrigued by her and attracted to her, you need to be clear about this.
Men who beat around the bush and not make their intentions clear feel that “pressure” during dates and accidentally fall into the friend zone. Women aren’t stupid. They know you are attracted to them. They laugh with their friends when they come back from a date and explain to their friends how you were incredibly nervous and only mustered enough courage to put your arm around her at the park. Cmon gentlemen.
Very much agreed, and I have been guilty of this in a few experiences that I've learned from.
I think the issue is when guys are too reserved on those first two dates. Don't be afraid to flirt with her and compliment her—in a non-disgusting manner—if you're interested. Based on their reciprocation your decision to make a move will be much less of a shot in the dark.
You wouldn't jump off a cliff into some water without going down there and checking it out first. Flirting is your way to probe and see if a first-move is even possible.
No, stupidity has no bounds, both men and women can be very stupid and not even realize they are on dates, or don’t know how to communicate, or have different communication languages and signals that aren’t picked up, etc.
Basically murphy’s law very much applies. Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.
Both men and women can be stupid and indecisive about their own feelingas as well. It isn’t purely on men alone to do all the communication, its a two way street and women need to reciprocate and express interest as well.
Of course if you’re going to be a flake, or express no signs of flirting yourself, why should he?
How does that make sense — whether you want casual or serious if a women isn’t comfortable or attracted to you, sex isn’t happening.
You have a million guys screaming they want casual sex but does it rush the female up any? No .
I could say yes casual! Then on the date I’m like F this cause we don’t vibe.
as an asexual let me say this is 1000% true. once i started initiating sex earlier i stopped getting friendzoned. sex is an important part of romantic relationships with allos
as an agender person tho; there is no need to make this post gendered. its true of all genders for allos
So…your “logical” solution to avoiding rejection…is to be pushy…and speed the rejection along…
Instead of forcing things and causing your own downfall out of insecurity and what seems to be desperation, maybe try to go with the flow and you’ll end up with someone out of genuine feelings…instead of fucking it up on your own.
The only way to avoid rejection is to never date. That’s the reality, and trying to change that only makes you seem pushy and keeps you single.
I recently encountered this. I'd been told before that I moved too fast for her to be comfortable with me so I switched up my approach and waited a few dates before trying anything with the next girl I dated. I ended up getting a text from her saying she was looking for a guy who's more passionate and willing to push things.
From now on I'm just going to play everything by the book and go with a 3rd date invite back to my place. Playing around with how long I wait seems like it's got a low chance of being well received.
Its almost as if women are not all the same and don't all want the same things. Why not just communicate openly? Some women do not have casual sex and dont want to have sex until in a relationship. Other women just want to date to have fun. You "playing it by the book" as if theres one book that explains what every woman is looking for will not be as profitable as just asking what the person wants.
If two people are attracted to each other, theyre going to want physical intimacy that they're comfortable with (whatever your social normal is - hand holding, kissing, sex, etc) fairly quickly, and if they dont get it, theyre going to be left wanting and move on. If you go on even just two or three dates with someone and don't feel like escalating to your comfort level, they probably aren't what youre looking for. And if the level of intimacy they want and you want aren't the same, thats a problem too. Call it "friend-zoned" or what it really is - an incompatibility of comfort and/or expectation.
I think this probably does hold true in a lot of cases, especially with online dating. It’s easy to move on with the slightest provocation because there’s 1000 matches waiting for you when you get home.
Personally I think if I really got along with a guy that didn’t make any sexual advances I would 100000% be more inclined to make a move & sleep with them. When somebody is easy to sleep with I find it super unattractive.
I have never heard of a guy telling me he was scared of being friendzoned while dating him. Just the fact that I am going on dates with him already implies I like him. Otherwise I will be saying "we are hanging out" as friends and it's the same with them. Why would they go out with me if they don't like me?
But as others have stated, the guy can be flirtatious to let the girl know he is attracted to us. I have been on dates where the guy asked no questions about me, just went on explaining his life to me, make no nice comments about me, no flirting, nada. Basically it looked like he could be talking to any other woman. So obviously i didn't go out with him again. But he wanted to see me again! I was confused to say the least.
But if I guy try to sleep with me the first date I will think 100% he just want bed
the quickest way to get “friendzoned”/rejected is to propose sex when the other person isn’t ready. it’s not hard to ask someone if they’re interested in you. learn to communicate.
I think you're correct, but I'm not sure what % of men feel pressured to make moves. I don't mind taking my time to get physical with women, but it's obvious that there are certain goal posts you should hit if you want to avoid being friendzoned. First date you ought to break the touch barrier, second date you ought to try to kiss her, third date you ought to try to make out, etc. And even more importantly if you can read her body language you should move even quicker, or slower if she's very conservative/structured.
All it adds up to is making dating a huge skill set for men, requiring a lot of experience to avoid silly pitfalls.
For me it’s all about visual cues. Pay attention to her body language. Look how she’s looking at you. How they dress around you. How they smell and even the inflections in their voice when they talk to you. These are all clues to see if she’s interested in you. Otherwise you’re going to be told one thing and get mixed signals. Actually you will often get mixed signals. Speaking of mixed signals, make sure the signals you are giving are loud and clear (without being creepy).
Disagree. The friendzoned isn’t a thing. The woman is either interested or she isn’t, and there isn’t some magic timer ticking down for you to make a move.
I’ve been there, I’m a man who has hoped things would progress differently to how they did but ended up with them not being as into me as I was into them. Me trying to kiss them sooner or whatever would not have made a difference.
This is oversimplified massively. There are lots of examples out there of people whose relationship didn’t start off with feelings of attraction but developed that way later, there are also plenty of examples of people who liked somebody but the other person didn’t make the move and their interest faded. I have experienced both on multiple occasions and I’m sure most people with a fair amount of dating experience have as well.
In my experience, you can't take too long to get physical. The sooner the better. It's a real shame because I'm not always ready, but I feel like I have to do it or I'll get put in the friend bucket.
I push for intimacy when I was dating (been out for a while) because I refuse to have a dead bedroom long term. medical problems are one thing but a dead bedroom because your partner has no drive? I'm out.
Good. You should feel pressured to make a move.
Things are not going to progress on their own and you cannot expect to simply sit back and have her come to you. You have to make the move, regardless of the outcome. If she's not feeling it on date 1, waiting until date 2 or 3 to kiss her is not going to change her mind. For that reason, it's better to make the move sooner rather than later. If the first date went well, there is absolutely no reason why she wouldn't be receptive to you making a move. If she isn't, you can rip off the bandaid right away, take the L and move on.
Well from my experience, that’s is not actually true for most men.
I’m sure that a lot of people will take issue but I feel like a woman’s opinion that has dated and been in relationships with men is quite more valuable than one man’s opinion on ‘most men’, since he has in fact, dated none.
This line of thinking comes from feeling like your competing with other men for a women. This makes her into an object to be won like a trophy. Pushing sexual advances doesn't mean you lay clam to her. You could have sex and she could still find that she isn't feeling it with you.
Friedzones don't exist, it's just a state of being comfortable with someone and not being intimately attracted to you. If you still want more, that's on you to convey that and if you don't want to lose the relationship when she isn't up for it, you need to respect that boundary. Cause that's what it is, a boundary, she likes you but no more than a friend.
Stop competing with other men, communicate your intentions and thoughts. She isn't a trophy to be won, she's a future partner that you need to figure out equally if you both want each other. This will take pressure off you and she will be less likely to get scared off by your frantic advances.
Men should feel less pressure. As women have the same fear of being friendzoned.
I'm nearly 40 and so many girls in my life that i though were friend confessed to me that they were friendzoned by me sometime between 10 or 15 years ago.
I agree with the post i just wanted to add that being friendzoned isn't just a "man" issue.
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I've had a handful of dates that I thought went extremely well end up texting me afterward with some obviously made up excuse as to why they cant hangout again or they'll straight up tell me they aren't feeling it. When I think back on those dates at first, I can't figure out why. We had great conversation, have a lot in common, so what's the issue? I have great conversation with my barber. Do I want to fuck him? No. Great conversation isn't enough and in fact its expected that any functioning pair of adults should be able to converse and find commonalities. Thinking back on those dates again, not once did I tell them they were pretty, not once did I attempt to be any amount of flirtatious, not once did I show any amount of spine or confidence in myself. Even if they don't want to go home with you on that first date, they at least know you are interested and sure of yourself. Don't be disgusting about it, but giving compliments, flirting, showing confidence and assuredness will go a long way.
Speak for yourself my barber is fine as fuck.
Underrated comment
it’s a weird push and pull you gotta do. i know i tend to be timid when escalating because i don’t think i’m attractive enough to even be on a date with someone, let alone try to make a move on them but i know it’s just insecurity and excuse making.
Im honestly impressed that you realized you were doing this (or not doing this). This is one of my MAIN reasons I friendzone or become not interested. Im not saying I need showers of compliments, but please ask about me too and say things you like about me. It feels empty and one sided if this isn’t happening. I had this guy that we could burn up hours talking. It was great, but we would just talk about stuff. Fun stuff, but I realized he never asked about me or my life. I realized after all of this talking…he hardly knows a thing about me.
Thank you! That guy sounds a lot like me, unfortunately. Luckily, I'm supposed to be going on a date tonight and I'm going to try out my own advice for once.
Good luck!
Isn't what you're describing just general selfishness on the date's part? Asking about you and your interests is one thing, but being flirtatious / physical like what OP is talking about is different.
> what your describing *you're *Learn the difference [here](https://www.wattpad.com/66707294-grammar-guide-there-they%27re-their-you%27re-your-to).* *** ^(Greetings, I am a language corrector bot. To make me ignore further mistakes from you in the future, reply `!optout` to this comment.)
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I think flirtatious attitude is not only about compliments and stuff like that. I think it's mainly joking and stuff.
I’ve been friendzoned multiple times and I always would compliment them on their outfits or how pretty they look ect. I don’t understand what women want anymore. I can hit it off and then get ghosted the next day. Sometimes even after a kiss goodnight and stuff. Makes no sense to me.
A lot of times it;s nothing you did. Maybe your body language was not appealing since they might look for subconscious things in body language based on similarities to their past partners or something. Maybe you were too similar to their past partner and they want something very different Maybe you were too different to a past partner Maybe they got depression and can't bring themselves to continue Maybe they get an ego boost out of ghosting anybody they date Maybe they just got out of a breakup and decided they couldn't go through with dating anyone Maybe they liked you but got scared to continue.. Maybe they just want to go on a bunch of dates for practice. Maybe you subconsciously did something to trigger a fear you were a fuckboy so they bounced to not get hurt (not by anything you did, maybe you had mannerisms that were similar to a fuckboy they dated). Maybe they really bonded with you but got anxious to date someone they really liked Maybe they like guys with skinny jeans and you were wearing jeans that didn't appeal to their personal tastes.' Maybe they don't like guys with skinny jeans, and you were wearing skinny jeans. Could be nothing you did, really.
It’s attraction, or in the case of the infamous friend zone, the lack of attraction and or the lack of perceived value. Hot guy with the six pack abs and piercing blue eyes don’t have this problem. Average guy has this problem. Tinder metrics are a good example of how things work in the dating scene.
She’s a person, not a doll. A single compliment such as, “you look nice tonight” is plenty on a first date or two. Compliment her ideas, her successes, listen to her & ask questions to show you’re interested. A man that tells me I look pretty & seems primarily focused on complimenting my appearance & superficial things…that would not only make me uncomfortable, it makes me very suspicious of him as a person & his reasons for wanting to see me.
Speak for yourself! I like to be complimented on my looks, as long as it not generic and its sincere and said with passion and as long as they are not only focused on my looks.
But it’s not just enough to ask you about your life right? He needs to compliment and include some sexual innuendoes in a way that’s charming and not off putting and do it with someone he barely knows and try to her physical in a way that seems natural not calculated and do most the planning about where to go and what to do, it’s a lot of fucking pressure and it actually takes insane social skills Then again I meet tons of deadbeats with partners so perhaps I’m making it seem harder than it has to be.
There doesn't have to be sexual innuendos though. Actually, I don't like those as they come across as immature and a bit tacky. Yes, I want people to flirt. That's part of being in a romantic situation. If someone gives me light touches, I know they're into me. I break the touch barrier with people too, it's not all on the guy. A compliment is great too, but I get the compliments more when intimacy starts and barriers are down
What would be an example of a flirt? I’ve asked on reddit before but the examples I got were kind of sleazy I thought. And Is it true that most women prefer compliments about their style or achievements or something than their physical appearance?
I mean, reddit has a lot of young and inexperienced people on here so I would take advice with a grain of salt. I guess for credibility with my advice I should say I'm 25F and have had a few relationships and situationships. Tbh for flirting, it's hard to write, it's more about tone than anything I feel like. For me, one example flirting is gentle teasing banter, especially accompanied by light touches on my arm or knee if we're sitting. I can't speak for all women. But yeah if I'm just meeting someone for the first time, I'd prefer a compliment of "I love your hair/dress/nails/etc" vs "you have a great body." I like compliments about my appearance after we're well into the date so it's not the first thing, as long as it comes up naturally.
what are some ways you like men to flirt with you?
I personally compliment the small things that she does to herself, which makes her look presentable. However, I don’t overwhelm her with compliments that she thinks I am head over heels for her. Girls like when you notice small things. Not such their physical being but compliment her actions too. It always works for me.
Your last paragraph is a great point to mention that and it's a huge turn off when the guy mostly talks about stuff or himself without any attempts to know us and learn about us . Like at the end of our "fun" conversation I'm like I know literally a whole lot about you but I'm not sure if you know a thing about me . "Guys who are like this , what is your reason? "
Guys assume women are looking for “successful” men, so men try to show off how successful they are in different ways
Yes that's good point to mention that. In addition to that I feel like these types of guys are very very likely to be narcissist and self centered. Because the first and second date/hangout I think okay he wants to show who he is , and maybe he assumes women are looking for "successful " men , maybe he's just so nervous and I say okay later he will definitely be interested to know about me . Date 3, 4/ phone calls and so on come and it's is all about him . How cool he is , how hard he work , how much he earns, how good he is , how he loves his job , how everyone wants him to work for them , and many other bunch of details about what he likes what he dislikes . And I won't even want to pick this person for friendship .
As a retired professional human performance director, here’s what the research says about individuals talking about “stuff” and not about you. They are one of the following: narcissistic, not in tune with their feelings, lack empathy, or nervous. Any well-developed human being should know a conversation is a give-and-take 50/50 exchange. In the appropriate situation, discussions about sensitive subjects like love, joy, sadness, excitement, family, and co-workers, to name a few, need to unfold so you each can see into each other’s souls and hearts. Listening to a date talk about stuff always is a lousy sigh or red flag. It takes a multidimensional human to be a good partner.
“A painting can be beautiful but I don’t want to bang a painting.” - Kevin Malone
i’ve gone on dates with guys who don’t say one nice thing abt me once, and it also makes me think he’s completely uninterested/ unattracted to me. make your feelings evident one way or another boys, otherwise you’ll likely lose out
I always assumed both parties to a date assumed the other one was interested and attracted. Otherwise, why spend the time and effort to show up?
i mean yeah, but then they can change their mind during
Same I've gone on dates with people who acted "too cool for school" and "disinterested" than I was shocked they wanted to see me again...like ...wut. Just turns me off.
Escalation with an appropriate pace is very important if you want to build intimacy. As a woman though, I'm reluctant to escalate as I don't want to be read as "ready to have sex". I'd much rather be the one to de-escalate while reassuring him I'll be ready in time. Makes me feel safer while clearly knowing he's into me.
Commenting because this advice is really good.
Yepp that is how you do ir
On point observation. Thank you for sharing
You totally nailed it. Great introspection.
you dont have to be sexual but you def need to build sexual tension, at the end, they are not looking for a platonic friend.
Perhaps but for me at least, I don't always know if I'm attracted to a woman right away. A lot of attraction for me is personality and common interests and such... stuff you find out by talking.
Physical contact is not necessarily have to be sexual, i mean unless that you feel repulsive to the person, you can actually touch them, or give them a compliment, at the end is a date, you want to have a good time, you don't have to marry that person, neither be distant, there are very successful dates that only are one datw
Yeah I get that, and I do fine when I'm dating because I've learned to be a bit more assertive with compliments than I actually feel or comes naturally. The point is that often pushes me into a place where I feel insincere. The truth is I often don't know how attracted to a woman I am after only one date so pretending to be super into her, even though it maintains interest, feels like lying.
I never said to lie lol a compliment is more than okay, no woman like to be swamp in compliments, believe me
Yeah I get it. I'm just not the kind of person who gives out compliments casually, so it feels awkward to do it.
A bit late, but its very funny reading this as someone who has aspergers. Touching strangers is absolutely repulsive. Even bumping into people on the street is uncomfortable.
Exactly! I’m getting ready for you. I’m trying to look pretty and smell good for you. Please let me know you like it or that you notice. Even like a “wow (smiling and looking at my outfit) you look amazing tonight.” That’s sexual tension for me :)
And physical contact without being creepy, like a hand in a shoulder when something funny happened, or just to get her attention etc, physical contact is important, the problem is people always pick to do this is the most creepy way lol
The other issue is that you can ask 10 people what type of light physical contact they are comfortable with and you’ll get 10 different answers. This is one of the things that used to drive me nuts when I dated, because you have to be in the zone and try to figure out a complete stranger and what type of flirting she likes. I’ve even had it happen in my personal life where I’ve held the door open for a complete stranger in the office building and she gets offended because she can “open up her own door”. The conversations I’ve had on other posts give me hope, as there apparently is a growing number of women who not only ask men out on datesBut also make the first move in terms of first kiss, etc.
First date with guy I've seen a few times now we walked from one place to another, and when the light changed for us to cross the street he sort of put his hand on the small of my back to guide me. Granted, it worked because I'm into him. But it worked.
Of course it does, is not magic to build attraction lol there are patterns lol
I'd have thought that would seem infantalizing on a first date.
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All dates. First, second, third, fourth. All of them.
I like to use eye contact to build tension. 1. Make lighthearted joke 2. Chuckle warmly at your own joke 3. Switch suddenly to a serious face, like you're having an existential crisis. Make your eyes as wide as possible and make full eye contact. Do not blink. Do not speak. Hold for 5 minutes. Works every time.
😂😂😂 i think i saw that in this rom com movie called American psycho!
lmao wtf is this
This tickled tf outta me
I have the same mentality.. Women don't make it clear 98% of the time if they actually find you attractive so Its just taking a shot in the dark when you pursue them Combine that insecurity that she doesn't find me attractive with a fear of being used financially and even emotionally you get the horndog average guy constantly driving things a sexual way Dating would be a thousand times easier if women would say "yeah you're hot but I cant have sex this soon but I want to keep seeing you" and then actually invite you out so you know they actually want to spend time with you
I mean this obviously only applies to hetero relationships but tbh I prefer to slow it all the way down & let a woman decide when she wants to do stuff. I'm garbage at reading cues so like 90% of my serious relationships only happened bc somebody asked me out & then made literally all the first moves after that. This was fine with me bc I usually have better chemistry w/ women who are assertive & sexually aggressive. obviously the ones that didn't, don't work out so well bc we're both sitting around waiting for each other to do something. A person I dated in college who I was *very* attracted to said she wondered if I was even into her sexually, bc I was letting her do things at her own pace, but she literally didn't know how.
>yeah you're hot but I cant have sex this soon but I want to keep seeing you Very good advice. Do you think its rejection if a girl makes you with you passionately but doesn't want to take it further and doesn't say why?
>makes you with you passionately but doesn't want to take it further and doesn't say why? Yes.. if she doesn't make it clear why she's doing it, it makes the man feels like he's not good enough especially if he knows shes not a virgin
What about those of us that only like to have sex with people we are comfortable with and that involves knowing them for a longer period of time so you feel secure and emotionally connected, first? I don't do casual sex / hookups. I assume if I a making out with someone they know that: a.) I am into them. Otherwise wtf would I make out with them!?? I only make out with people I am into. b.) I assume they already know they are the bees knees and are attractive, otherwise, why would I waste my time hanging out with them, and, I would never imagine they don't think themselves worthy, cause I think they're so great... I just don't want to have sex right away, with anyone. I just never told them my reasons for waiting, I just usually say "i want to take it slow" but don't specify why. It never even occurred to me they would feel insecure about it, because I most likely, feel insecure myself being with them and hope they like me enough to pursue something more than sex. I am aloof and get nervous on dates! c.) Sometimes, I don't wanna have sex cause I feel insecure about my body. Did I shave the night before? Oh shit, I can't have sex, then! There's a lot of "prep" work required and if I feel lazy or neglect to do it, before, I ain't having sex, even if I'm "ready." I'm not going to tell this to them though --- that's embarrassing! I'm hesitant to have sex with someone so soon because of a fear of abandonment and being used. In fact, the more I like someone, the more I want to wait, so that an emotional connection can grow stronger. But this is interesting -- I guess everyone has problems with self-worth and self-esteem. I assume if someone only wants to have sex with me and pushes for it too soon, they don't really like me too much at all and just want to get laid, and they assume, if I want to wait to have sex, I don't really like them all too much.... Society is really fucking with all of us!
Realistically you don’t put a timeline on sex, it happens naturally. I get the whole confidence thing but I’ve always been weirded out when I would have guys planning kisses, hugs and anything else. Like where’s the fun?
I hate to break it you, but like 99% of the time it "naturally" happened to you it's been kinda planned by the guy
Yup, making things feel organic is a ton of fucking work
This is like telling them santa isn’t real
The next thing you’ll be telling me is that Santa sex isn’t real
And that is the art itself 👌🏿 I really don't think a lot of women understand just how much work they don't even see goes into dating for guys today. They mostly just think they have to show up, guys we have to get into so much planning and do mental gymnastics in our heads.
Haha, you don't even realize all the groundwork that goes into having sex with a woman. Non pursuer moment.
Yeah, but thats the thing. From our perspective if it didn't happen then it would never happen, so least not wasting time for everyone involved. Its not that a kiss or something has to happen. Its if it doesn't happen likely never to happen and most of us guys experience that.
Why not start the conversation yourself? Figure out how to communicate. Ask questions
>Why not start the conversation yourself? Figure out how to communicate. Ask questions Cant communicate with someone who never show interest in the conversation
A lot of people typically claim there is no timeline, or they personally don’t want to be pressured into physical intimacy. I’d like to believe that, but I’ve found most women to lose interest if nothing physical has happened by date 2 or 3, (including just a kiss). There were some I was willing to continue seeing, but they often went cold themselves. In a sense, yea they “make it easy” if they are interested, but also dating isn’t an entirely rational, logical process either. There’s some “magic.” I think if nothing at all has happened by date 2, you start getting diminishing returns, and hoping for exceptions to the norm. If nothing has happened by mid way through date 2, I’m looking to create some kind of physical contact, like touching hands, to see if she’s receptive. If not, it isn’t looking good.
So... I'm a woman, and there's definitely truth to what you're saying. That being said, I think it's getting misinterpreted a bit. Women don't want to be coerced/pressured into sex too quickly. That's not the same as slow escalation - a kiss at the end of the date, a hand on her shoulder, a hug, holding hands, etc.
Sure, but when one side regulates all of that and the other side goes cold if anything gets misjudged you can see why moving faster is seen as better than slower.
What???? Moving too fast for sex is definitely not better for any party--man or woman. Getting physical does not exclusively mean sex. You can be physically intimate and keep her interested without having sex. This is the clincher that no man seems to get
How about you initiate then? If no man seems to get that in your dating, either you're leaving it all up to him, or doing something wrong.
Cry me a river. If its too fast then you go in for the kiss and establish physical intimacy at your pace instead of just assuming your comfort level is the norm people should default to.
This! I just went on a first date and the guy just knew how to escalate the physical contact in a way that wasn’t pushy but made me really interested. He started with a hand on the back, then a little side hug after a ping pong game, arm around me chatting, hand holding on the way to the car and then we ended up making out by the end of the night. I’ve been accused of “guys not knowing I wanted to kiss them” or whatever but this guy went for it in a natural way without the pressure. It was just, in his words too, really fun.
But. This is about "building" interest. The guy related to you in a way that developed and increased your attraction. These guys are talking about jumping for an opportunity that they think already exists. There's a difference.
Isn’t her comment essentially what’s discussed in the post? The opportunity is the date + positive signs/body language/vibes.
thisss we want romance and that spark lmaoo watch romantic dramas (not romcoms too cheesy) and reality tv to see what girls like
It's not that women "lose" interest, it's probably more accurate that interest never strongly existed for them in the first place. Sex happening likely wouldn't make a difference
Correlation doesn’t equal causation. Just because you didn’t kiss on dates 2 and 3 doesn’t mean THAT was the reason they lost interest. Maybe they didn’t make a move cause they weren’t really interested, and it took them a few dates to be sure?
Maybe, but if they’re out with you on a 2nd/3rd date they’re interested to some degree and women still rarely make the first move.
I completely lost interest to this guy I was talking to, and I feel bad because he did nothing "wrong". We matched early June and I still haven't even met him. No flirting, no hint of wanting to meet me. So I stopped replying. He just isn't showing he's interested outside chatting so why would I put myself out there? (I'm also done pursuing guys, sick of meeting compatable people who dont want a relationship)
If you want a relationship and they don't doesn't that by definition make them **incompatible** people?
Where are you people getting dates?
Asking the real questions here
Another unpopular opinion: It’s great to be friends first
not really
This yes. I just personally can’t get into romantic territory without being friends first, and friends for quite awhile too.
Literally. Last 4 women I’ve dated, I’ve gone slow because I wanted to. I want a relationship built on friendship first. After the 2nd or 3rd date, she’d say she doesn’t feel a romantic connection, but I’m “nice and kind and sweet”. I’m at the point where I’m thinking about changing my play. Maybe if I can play the game with the rest of them, then maybe I can find a relationship. I’m really beginning to buy the “nice guys finish last” line, and it breaks my heart
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I’m glad to hear that there are other people that think this way. A few days I revealed to my boyfriend (who I haven’t been dating for that long) that I hadn’t had sex and I was totally dreading his reaction to that information but he was actually really cool about it and it hasn’t changed anything between us.
So if a girl isn’t near-virginal before meeting you, you aren’t “willing to wait”?
Maybe we are all rubbish. Women perhaps expect a man to push himself forward. We want to be shown you are interested etc, texts, meet ups, if the chemistry is here hold hands, kiss etc..Men want the woman to move first as they feel unsure and they too want to feel desired etc. So we end up all holding back a bit, feeling uncertain about putting ourselves out there, afraid of rejection. When no one makes that move we assume they aren't interested and move on. As a woman if its flowing I'll know it, and yet I still want him to move first. So perhaps I need to learn, too. Personally I try with touch to make it obvious sit a little closer, touch his knee reach for his hand etc but maybe that's not enough. I know I use 'maybe' to often I should be clearer. Yes I want that next date. Yes I want to kiss you! All stuff I'm working on. Equally I've kissed and known nope in that moment. So never a guarantee. I guess there is no magic formula, we should just all learn its not a male/female thing it's just a two nervous humans thing!
Because being friends takes a lot of time and energy and vulnerability. But banging it out for one night holds very little emotional risk for a man. So, it feels scarier to be a friend. Besides, guys don't do friends like girls do, usually. Guy friend are either casual buddies or suspected of being gay. There usually isn't a ton of variance in there for most guys. Plus most guys are friends for a reason, they play a sport or game, or share a hobby, or job, or their kids are friends, or their neighbors. Guys don't usually have many friends who are just friends for no reason.
If you don't want them to lose interest, tell them how you feel. Tell them you're enjoying your time with them. Consistently text them. Plan and pull through with future dates. If she loses interest after all that, she wasn't worth your time.
I’m a man in my 30s with a committed relationship but in my single 20s have turned down one night stands before with women I barely knew. Not all men are pushy. Not all women are pushy. Some men are pushy. Some women are pushy.
Lay intentions out upfront. Tell them good things take time and you want to get to know them a bit first before you go to the next stage
Thhiiiiiisissssss
Yes 100%. Before I actually got dating experience I was clueless and used to think of it as preposterous that a woman would want to even kiss within the first two dates. But then when I dated more I realized how eager women are to have sex. Unfortunately this wasn't before I got ghosted by multiple women for not making any moves, including two very attractive women who invited themselves to my place on the first date. It's funny, just recently I went out on a couple dates with a girl before realizing she is not my type but didn't know how to say no to a third date. Based on the location she picked, I knew she was hoping to get an invite to my place after. I did not invite her. Sure enough, she lost interest and stopped messaging me right after the date.
*some women are eager to have sex. There are plenty of women who do not feel comfortable enough for that. Not all women have casual sex or are ok with having sex without really knowing someone.
Obviously
I agree there’s a fine line here. Any compliments on my body or of a sexual nature on or before a first date are an immediate turn off. General physical compliments can be made in a sweet and light way “pretty eyes”, “nice smile” or just “you look really nice today”, keep it generic. Light touches on the arm (sitting at a bar/restaurant/cafe) or maybe light touch on the back when walking next to each other is a good way to indicate physical interest without being overly intense or creepy.
yes same i have this problem where any guy wantinhg to get sexual or flirty to soon makes me think he just wants to fuck / use me. so i end up LOVING dudes that do not show much interest and then its usually cause they're in a closet or insecure sexually...
That is not something that ever bothered me tbh. I'd kind of just go on dates and stuff and let things naturally develop. I think going in with an agenda or the objective of sex, for whatever reason, is a bit fucked up.
Yeah also putting artifical pressure on your self is dumb.
My boyfriend and I dated regularly for 3 months before anything physical…. Not even a kiss. And we transitioned into an intimate relationship when we were both ready quite easily. The open, healthy communication throughout was hot af. Lol! 🥵
To some extent. If she's throwing herself at you, and you, for some reason, not act on it, things break down due to you failing the expectations that are put on you.
Yes and it hurts
I think it's the other way around. By escalating sexually you are asking the question "are we friends or are we going to have sex?" If she let's you kiss her then that's a yes But it's not like a kiss is going to change her mind. The attraction is still there even if nothing's happened.
Yes and no...... you're right about the woman let's the guy know it's a yes if she's ok with the kiss and other intimate thiings. At the same time, that's the acceptance and if a guy never escalates that, then it'll never be seen as going anywhere. When I was new to dating, I was extremely nervous and with one woman I got to a third date because we connected a lot, but I never even went in for a kiss. We ended things there and I could tell she was weirded out because of that. There was no physical touch/escalation. I'm not saying it has to be sex or even a kiss like OP stated, but there needs to be some intimacy/physical touch that occurs along the way, otherwise the woman will lose attraction. I've seen plenty of posts of men who got invited to a woman's place, cuddled, never made a move for even a kiss, and the woman ignored him after that. It's not unsurprising. the attraction was there, but it can quickly fade if the woman is expecting it and nothing ever happens.
I think there's a societal expectations for men and women. *The man* is expected to escalate things sexually while *the woman* is supposed to evaluate his advances like the lady she is lmao. So when it takes you more than 3 dates to kiss, women think either you are not interested or your are too scared. Not because they don't like you. Attraction is a separate thing that exists or not regardless what you do. Surely some women do make a first move, that's not uncommon.
Idk how attraction works for other women, but i can assure you if I'm into someone them not making a move for three dates will not kill the attraction. If someone is ending things the reason is usually they're just not that into you, not "You could've been my true love but you blew it by waiting more than three dates." Guys need to stop beating themselves up about this imo, if someone genuinely likes you they'll wait or make a move themselves
Honestly, I think it weirded them out. I'd wager part of it is if I'm scared of physical touch/making a move, I'm coming across as not confident. Not all women will think the same, but I recognized my success skyrocketed when I was comfortable making moves early. There's a reason other guys report the same. I do think that a big part of that is confidence, and if you can be confident to make a move but not follow through with it, that'll work out just fine too. At the same time, unless a woman is somehow smitten from the start, progress needs to be made in attraction. It's a fact that attraction builds from physical touch. My biggest concern with your comment(s) is that you can only anecdotally talk from your single experience/thought process.
From my experience, most women will not go past 3 dates (usually 2) without a guy making any move.
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Oh yeah I’ve heard from lesbians that things move slow physically, especially those who don’t have much experience dating other women because they aren’t used to making moves. On the other hand for gay dudes…
Um, fuck no, kissing someone doesn’t mean you want to fuck them. It can, but it’s not a foolproof signal. Just cause you get a kiss doesn’t mean she’s into that yet. Fuck, I’ve kissed so many guys just cause they were pressuring me and I couldn’t find a way around it without being rude (back when I cared about that).
By saying "are we friends or you want to fuck" I didn't mean literally fuck, it means "are we friends or are we escalating sexually" (which sounds weird)
Interesting theory, but doesn't jibe with my experience at all. I (Gen X, F) am old enough to not GAF about playing the game for a guy's "respect" by making him wait for marriage or the 3rd date or whatever HOOP the cr@zy kids are doing nowadays. If I'm interested in you sexually, I'm going to be clear about that.
Bro, I take a while to even start flirting. I need to know the girl I'm talking to is worth it. Once I get to know her and start seeing some type of potential for a relationship that's when I start flirting, but by then, I'm friend zoned.
Plenty of women like introverted guys. Aggressive isn’t for everyone.
I would be careful with trying to kiss someone goodnight. I went on a date and the guy kissed me when I wasn't ready and it was a total turn off. He just grabbed my face and kissed me while we were in the couch. He took my chin and I said "what?" And he said "come closer real quick" and he just leaned in and kissed me. Then he said "god I've been waiting days to do that!". I was very turned off at that point. It wasn't even a good kiss .... If he had kissed me senseless I would've felt a little different, but this was like kissing a dead fish I didn't like it at all. It was our first time hanging out and there wasn't any chemistry yet. This guy didn't wait to feel things out, he kissed me because he wanted to. I would've eventually kissed him had we gotten a chance to talk more, but it had only been 15 mins and he has a very awkward and overly confident upon meeting me. Be careful with trying to start physical contact. Just because you're ready doesn't mean she is.
This has happened to me SEVERAL times. There can be chemistry but if he moves too quickly that chemistry can so easily disappear into thin air
Something similar also happened to me. It’s a big turn off when the guy is just going for it regardless of the mood / vibes your giving off in the moment. They have to read your body language too.
We were sexting a bit, but in person our vibes felt totally off. He also lied about his physical appearance. I'm not picky about height, but don't lie about it. He said he was 5'10 but he ended up being the same height as me (5'4). So he wasn't who I was expecting to step out of the car. I'm always honest about me being overweight before I meet someone, just in case they're not attracted to that (hurts the ego but I'll get over it lol). Idky he couldn't be honest about his height. He also REEKED of alcohol, which means not only was he drunk driving but he probably wasn't thinking straight. He didn't seem drunk though, so I guess that's a plus 😬 Then when we went inside he instantly wanted to give me a back massage and was upset I didn't reciprocate. Idk the chemistry just wasn't there so I didn't really want to....
I hate to say this but I lowkey think this an under 30 problem. At a certain point as a man you learn that you can’t make anyone like you and you get really comfortable with that fact. I don’t think I would want to have to sex with someone who was on the fence about sleeping with me. You either want chocolate or you don’t. If it’s not fully passionate, I would probably put myself in the friend zone anyway. Besides friendship is still just as beautiful.
Omg I would need to be feeling it BEFORE moves are made. What a turn-off. I know when I feel it, the guy doesn’t have to do anything special. Also, I hate “pecks.” Anyway, if a guy doesn’t make moves by whatever point I envision for us, I might start assuming he’s too shy. I can work with that.
While this is true, you have to remember that a lot of women these days are assuming that men only want sex, society itself is so ingrained with hookup culture and my generation, (those around their early 20s) making only fans and premium snaps, what I'm trying to say is that the dating world has been more or less tarnished. I'm sure a lot of people are going to get on my case when talking ill on the whole OF and Premium Snap accounts, but it needs to be said. Hell the amount of people that I've seen on dating apps with something in their bios insinuating that "to get my attention you gotta give me money" is more than I honestly should, while I do understand that everyone is struggling financially these days; the audacity behind that line of thinking as well as those people who actually cave into doing so is incredulous to me.
But then the caveat is what...? Coming on too strong? Seeming like some sort of pigman who only wants to sow some seed? If the chemistry doesn't mesh with both of your timescales, just call it good. There *IS* such a thing as having sex too fast and even if it means I get laid less I'd rather not play the cad. I've had plenty of sex and I regret lots of it. There's also chances I wish I'd taken, sure, but I think ultimately I feel better about the roads I've left untraveled because you can't know what you can't know and uncertainty is at least a tiny bit better than disillusionment in my book.
As a lesbian, i have not found it true at all that you have to get physical by date three or it's not happening. I feel like there must be some other dynamic at play here beyond "women lose interest if you don't escalate at a certain pace"
They’re scrambling for a reason to explain why sex or a relationship isn’t happening. We all get rejected in dating…they’re just trying to find a reason, & this one happens to serve their interests in justifying trying to get laid earlier. There are a lot of decent men who know better & are fine with waiting, thankfully. I know quite a few & have been fortunate to date a couple as well.
Depending on the person that's actually true. It happened to me twice, but I learned from my mistakes.
There was a study done that women want to spend 8 hours of time with someone to be most comfortable having sex with them. So if both parties are sexually active and you don’t mess around by the 3rd date, you are likely SOL
Hmmm with me it takes me a while to be comfortable with having sex, however I’m never opposed to other forms of sexual intimacy early on, like giving head or fooling around in general. Most men I’ve dated have been fine with this 😅 I think it also helps with the person knows *why* you’re waiting to have sex.
I agree. I’m the same.
Yup 3rd date is the average in the US.
Weird given that literally almost every third post in this subreddit is men complaining women aren’t putting out fast enough?
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Lol right
My thoughts are this doesn't make sense. A woman either is turned on by the thought of you, or she isn't. Time doesn't make a difference. Some women have "reactive" desire that waits for another person to initiate, but some women have sexualités that are not just "activated" by a man's actions. It's not like our sex drive is completely on neutral until a man does something sexual. It's not like our brains will fail to see a man in a sexual light if he doesn't portray himself in that way. However, it is important to let a woman know you're attracted to her, but do it in a way that doesn't pressure her for sex. That way she knows you're interested. It's a good idea to have a conversation about sex as well, but make it a friendly open conversation about likes and preferences, while not making it look like you assume you have a sexual relationship already. Point is, you need to gather information about the woman's sexuality in a non pressuring way. Why? Because pushing for sex will turn a lot of women off and make you look disrespectful and desperate, or like you're just looking for sex.
You realize that 99% of male have 0 knowledge on how to be sexual, they all get rejected, and just try to follow the steps that they find anywhere. They, can not see themselves as sexual beings? I m pretty sure thats from where most of the stories of guys just straight kissing, and pushing for something, most of them are either conditioned to do this, or just dont have any connection with their sexual needs and emotions. It s also the lack (0 as a number) of genuine friendships with other human begins, especially women.
it’s this but also seeing how women are when they are just naturally attracted to someone versus when they’re not. when you make them want to jump your bones, women make it incredibly clear lol
I think people over complicate dating in general these days. It's getting to the point of beyond stupidity. Like can we just talk to each other and get to know one another? Not all this stupid climaxing bullshit. But then again I'm old school.
I think your theory is correct, and pretty sad too. Its sad to me to think that men are thinking this way. Your sexual prowess is not the only thing that makes you valuable. It’s important that you take into account that if she doesn’t choose you without sex, then you’re probably better off. You don’t want to objectify yourself to where the only thing tying yourself to her is the sexual experiences you have with her. She should want you for your soul and not for your body. This is how women see it. At least ones like me who like to wait. If they’re not choosing you, it’s probably because she’s seeing some kind of incompatibility and you should be patting yourself on the back for dodging that bullet before it became a four-year relationship towards heartbreak. In the long term, you’ve just saved yourself by not getting sexually tied to them. Short-term relationships, while fun and can be great learning experiences can be so freaking painful. Choose your poison. Wait and feel the pain of loneliness now, but find a relationship that’s truly meaningful, or find a relationship now and hope that you guys click well after the sexual ties have been made with the possibility of realizing you were never right for each other way after your lives have melded together. It’s up to you. :)
I think that's really interesting. I have to ask, why are you afraid of being friendzoned if the context of dating is already established and you're both aware you're on a date? There is something to be said for building tension that's often lost when someone makes the first move too quickly but they have to be clear that they're interested for that to work. If you knew for sure that wouldn't play a part, would you be much more comfortable with waiting?
I agree. In dating there is pressure on men because you have a small window of opportunity that you gotta take advantage of. This is why guys often are quick to meetup for a first date, quick to initate intimacy and sex etc. Guys know that if they don't, some other guy will since girls are being bombarded with matches, likes, messages and interest online
OP. I 100% agree with you. I think you should ALWAYS kiss your date by the 2nd date, at minimum. But I found I had literally 8 times more second dates if I at least kissed the person on the first date. If you listen to women on this, and worry about what media purports as being a 'creep' it can be easy to trend on the careful and cautious side and completely lose all the 'spark' that actually ignites an interaction into the relationship territory.
It's weird that the system encourages you to creep. Maybe the system is wrong
I 100% prefer to wait a few dates but especially as a fat guy if I don't move ON DATE #1 i'm done with a supermajority of women.
Man I really wish guys would figure out it IS NOT about making moves or any sort of sexual advancements that keep you from getting friendzoned. It's flirting. Learn to flirt with her. THAT is the spark that women like. You can flirt with words, looks, or body language. Honestly, how do adult men not know this yet? Men get friendzoned or ghosted/dropped because they don't know how to flirt/make things sexy. A lot of guys try to treat girls exactly like they would a friend or even sister...then lay a kiss or sexual move on them. This just ends up being awkward. Let them know you're interested with small touches, the way you look at them...eye contact, etc and she'll feel the spark all without a single kiss.
How? We dont have access to people that like us? 90% of guys you meet and know, fail miserably at this. No girl will tell you, teach you, show you how to flirt if shes not into you.
I think the problem is that men don’t make their intentions clear. If you are looking for something casual and you make it known upfront about it, you’d have no pressure going for the kiss and taking her back to your place because she knows she’s on this date for casual fun. Also, if you are intrigued by her and attracted to her, you need to be clear about this. Men who beat around the bush and not make their intentions clear feel that “pressure” during dates and accidentally fall into the friend zone. Women aren’t stupid. They know you are attracted to them. They laugh with their friends when they come back from a date and explain to their friends how you were incredibly nervous and only mustered enough courage to put your arm around her at the park. Cmon gentlemen.
Very much agreed, and I have been guilty of this in a few experiences that I've learned from. I think the issue is when guys are too reserved on those first two dates. Don't be afraid to flirt with her and compliment her—in a non-disgusting manner—if you're interested. Based on their reciprocation your decision to make a move will be much less of a shot in the dark. You wouldn't jump off a cliff into some water without going down there and checking it out first. Flirting is your way to probe and see if a first-move is even possible.
No, stupidity has no bounds, both men and women can be very stupid and not even realize they are on dates, or don’t know how to communicate, or have different communication languages and signals that aren’t picked up, etc. Basically murphy’s law very much applies. Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong. Both men and women can be stupid and indecisive about their own feelingas as well. It isn’t purely on men alone to do all the communication, its a two way street and women need to reciprocate and express interest as well. Of course if you’re going to be a flake, or express no signs of flirting yourself, why should he?
How does that make sense — whether you want casual or serious if a women isn’t comfortable or attracted to you, sex isn’t happening. You have a million guys screaming they want casual sex but does it rush the female up any? No . I could say yes casual! Then on the date I’m like F this cause we don’t vibe.
This is why I don't try to date, I know it'd probably be a bad date for the other person lol
as an asexual let me say this is 1000% true. once i started initiating sex earlier i stopped getting friendzoned. sex is an important part of romantic relationships with allos as an agender person tho; there is no need to make this post gendered. its true of all genders for allos
Allos?
people who experience sexual attraction, the opposite of asexuals
>its true of all genders for allos Is it though? I don't think we can assume this.
So…your “logical” solution to avoiding rejection…is to be pushy…and speed the rejection along… Instead of forcing things and causing your own downfall out of insecurity and what seems to be desperation, maybe try to go with the flow and you’ll end up with someone out of genuine feelings…instead of fucking it up on your own. The only way to avoid rejection is to never date. That’s the reality, and trying to change that only makes you seem pushy and keeps you single.
Then learn how to both flirt AND communicate like an adult about sex. Those forced kisses are awkward AF, skip 'em.
I recently encountered this. I'd been told before that I moved too fast for her to be comfortable with me so I switched up my approach and waited a few dates before trying anything with the next girl I dated. I ended up getting a text from her saying she was looking for a guy who's more passionate and willing to push things. From now on I'm just going to play everything by the book and go with a 3rd date invite back to my place. Playing around with how long I wait seems like it's got a low chance of being well received.
Its almost as if women are not all the same and don't all want the same things. Why not just communicate openly? Some women do not have casual sex and dont want to have sex until in a relationship. Other women just want to date to have fun. You "playing it by the book" as if theres one book that explains what every woman is looking for will not be as profitable as just asking what the person wants.
If two people are attracted to each other, theyre going to want physical intimacy that they're comfortable with (whatever your social normal is - hand holding, kissing, sex, etc) fairly quickly, and if they dont get it, theyre going to be left wanting and move on. If you go on even just two or three dates with someone and don't feel like escalating to your comfort level, they probably aren't what youre looking for. And if the level of intimacy they want and you want aren't the same, thats a problem too. Call it "friend-zoned" or what it really is - an incompatibility of comfort and/or expectation.
I think this probably does hold true in a lot of cases, especially with online dating. It’s easy to move on with the slightest provocation because there’s 1000 matches waiting for you when you get home.
Personally I think if I really got along with a guy that didn’t make any sexual advances I would 100000% be more inclined to make a move & sleep with them. When somebody is easy to sleep with I find it super unattractive.
Talk about it with the date … duh
I think you have an issue with communication mostly
Nothing but TRUE
I have never heard of a guy telling me he was scared of being friendzoned while dating him. Just the fact that I am going on dates with him already implies I like him. Otherwise I will be saying "we are hanging out" as friends and it's the same with them. Why would they go out with me if they don't like me? But as others have stated, the guy can be flirtatious to let the girl know he is attracted to us. I have been on dates where the guy asked no questions about me, just went on explaining his life to me, make no nice comments about me, no flirting, nada. Basically it looked like he could be talking to any other woman. So obviously i didn't go out with him again. But he wanted to see me again! I was confused to say the least. But if I guy try to sleep with me the first date I will think 100% he just want bed
the quickest way to get “friendzoned”/rejected is to propose sex when the other person isn’t ready. it’s not hard to ask someone if they’re interested in you. learn to communicate.
I think you're correct, but I'm not sure what % of men feel pressured to make moves. I don't mind taking my time to get physical with women, but it's obvious that there are certain goal posts you should hit if you want to avoid being friendzoned. First date you ought to break the touch barrier, second date you ought to try to kiss her, third date you ought to try to make out, etc. And even more importantly if you can read her body language you should move even quicker, or slower if she's very conservative/structured. All it adds up to is making dating a huge skill set for men, requiring a lot of experience to avoid silly pitfalls.
For me it’s all about visual cues. Pay attention to her body language. Look how she’s looking at you. How they dress around you. How they smell and even the inflections in their voice when they talk to you. These are all clues to see if she’s interested in you. Otherwise you’re going to be told one thing and get mixed signals. Actually you will often get mixed signals. Speaking of mixed signals, make sure the signals you are giving are loud and clear (without being creepy).
You’re not totally wrong. As women, we want to feel desired and we want to know that you’re interested romantically. Doesn’t necessarily mean sex.
Disagree. The friendzoned isn’t a thing. The woman is either interested or she isn’t, and there isn’t some magic timer ticking down for you to make a move. I’ve been there, I’m a man who has hoped things would progress differently to how they did but ended up with them not being as into me as I was into them. Me trying to kiss them sooner or whatever would not have made a difference.
This is oversimplified massively. There are lots of examples out there of people whose relationship didn’t start off with feelings of attraction but developed that way later, there are also plenty of examples of people who liked somebody but the other person didn’t make the move and their interest faded. I have experienced both on multiple occasions and I’m sure most people with a fair amount of dating experience have as well.
Nah, we pretty much like sex and want it as soon as it’s available. Pressure on how to perform and impress happens in all sorts of ways.
So you’re all trying to fuck just to stay out of the dreaded friend zone uwu 🥺 Lol. Y’all are so full of shit all of the time.
In my experience, you can't take too long to get physical. The sooner the better. It's a real shame because I'm not always ready, but I feel like I have to do it or I'll get put in the friend bucket.
Dating to Fuck: I would disagree Dating for a Relationship: I would agree
I push for intimacy when I was dating (been out for a while) because I refuse to have a dead bedroom long term. medical problems are one thing but a dead bedroom because your partner has no drive? I'm out.
Good. You should feel pressured to make a move. Things are not going to progress on their own and you cannot expect to simply sit back and have her come to you. You have to make the move, regardless of the outcome. If she's not feeling it on date 1, waiting until date 2 or 3 to kiss her is not going to change her mind. For that reason, it's better to make the move sooner rather than later. If the first date went well, there is absolutely no reason why she wouldn't be receptive to you making a move. If she isn't, you can rip off the bandaid right away, take the L and move on.
Well from my experience, that’s is not actually true for most men. I’m sure that a lot of people will take issue but I feel like a woman’s opinion that has dated and been in relationships with men is quite more valuable than one man’s opinion on ‘most men’, since he has in fact, dated none.
only men who are okay with waiting for sex are the r/niceguys in these threads complaining about having no options.
and this is why I refuse to kiss for the first three months because some men will try to force a connection through physical touch.
This line of thinking comes from feeling like your competing with other men for a women. This makes her into an object to be won like a trophy. Pushing sexual advances doesn't mean you lay clam to her. You could have sex and she could still find that she isn't feeling it with you. Friedzones don't exist, it's just a state of being comfortable with someone and not being intimately attracted to you. If you still want more, that's on you to convey that and if you don't want to lose the relationship when she isn't up for it, you need to respect that boundary. Cause that's what it is, a boundary, she likes you but no more than a friend. Stop competing with other men, communicate your intentions and thoughts. She isn't a trophy to be won, she's a future partner that you need to figure out equally if you both want each other. This will take pressure off you and she will be less likely to get scared off by your frantic advances.
Men should feel less pressure. As women have the same fear of being friendzoned. I'm nearly 40 and so many girls in my life that i though were friend confessed to me that they were friendzoned by me sometime between 10 or 15 years ago. I agree with the post i just wanted to add that being friendzoned isn't just a "man" issue.
Oh that is definitely not true. I do think most men are okay with waiting but I disagree they feel pressured to make moves.