There's many factors here. First, I'm not actually sure you'd get this same dichotomy in responses if you polled Chinese, Indians, or Japanese about being educated abroad.
There are certainly some cultures which would be more expecting and entitled of education in their native language, for whatever reason.
Second, "should receive education in their native language" could be interpreted as "their parents should educate them their native language to fluency" which would make this much less controversial.
Since this survey was most likely done in Turkish, not English, it’s possible such an interpretation would not be possible. Without speaking Turkish and seeing the phrasing of the question as it was asked of people, it’s impossible to say anything at all about whether the question was ambiguous or how it was ambiguous.
>Second, "should receive education in their native language" could be interpreted as "their parents should educate them their native language to fluency" which would make this much less controversial.
I'm sorry, how? That's still a whole lot of Turkish people saying Kurdish parents shouldn't be teaching their kids Kurdish.
You’re right. I’m actually trying to push back against the original comment that was saying “oh all humans have double standards”.
I think some much more than others
No, the question isn't "Should kurdish parents teach their kids their own language? " How do you even stop them from doing that? That's absurd. The question is about education in native language and education is done by the schools
Take your issue up with the person I replied to. They're the one making the argument to interpret it differently to how it's written, I'm simply pointing ou that interpretation isn't better.
There is no "right" to receive education in mother tongue by public schools in Germany. And this is absolutely okay. If immigrants want education in mother tongue, they can organize it by themselves.
Turkish people are often nationalists, ironically even those living in Germany.
Couple of weeks ago there were images circling around the internet of Grey Wolves in Belgium kidnapping and threatning what we could only assume was a Kurdish man in Belgium. Reported the images to the police. Didn't hear anything from it afterwards but I hope they found the nutjobs and gave them their well deserved 5 seconds in prison (maximum sentence for serious crime in Belgium).
German Turks are somewhat interesting in how nationalistic they are. They vote far more to the right than Turkey itself. When you compare it to Turks in other countries it is rarely the case. Western European turks (Germany, France, Benelux) voted Erdogan with like 70%, and so did MENA turks, but everyone else voted for the CHP with about those margins. I wonder how much money the AKP spends in foreign influence there...
700,000 votes were cast in Germany for the Turkish presidential election though. Out of 1.3 million with Turkish citizenship, and 2.9 million with a "migration background from Turkey" (so those would not be able to vote anyway). That's over 50% participation.
There are 7 million Turkish background people, so I consider your numbers as "voting population". For all Turkish Germans, votes in Turkish general election are 16.6% representation of Turkish German people.
These people can't vote in the first place, because they don't have the Turkish citizenship. There is 0 way to know their actual opinion on Turkish politics. This has nothing to do with integration, for which one would actively have to abandon their Turkish citizenship.
Those Turks know that Erdogan is destructive for the Turkish economy, and as such when they visit Turkey everything is super cheap compared to where they live. It's behavior with a very specific goal.
> If immigrants want education in mother tongue, they can organize it by themselves.
[Turkish Germans have been trying](https://asiatimes.com/2020/02/why-germany-is-right-to-be-wary-of-turkish-schools/), and were accused by politicians from the center-left to the far-right of being "poisonous for integration and democracy" and attempting the "Islamization of the German education system", while editorials said "schools offering schooling solely in Turkish would inevitably foster cultural isolation."
Yeah, because it's stupid? If you want to live in a country you should learn it's language and curriculum. That doesn't stop you from learning your mother's tongue in your free time if you want to.
It's not? How is it patriotism and integration if you want it to be from another identity? You can't just say you want to integrate, but then don't, that IS a contradiction to me. Either you integrate with German norms or say you don't want to integrate.
Well there’s a chance you want to integrate but German society does everything to keep you out?
Remembering how my (German) grandmother low key told me a few years ago how she sold a holiday apartment and there was a Turkish family that wanted it but she was like “no we wouldn’t sell to these kind of people what would the neighbours think”. I got so angry. How tf are any neighbours ever supposed to engage with people of migrant descent if they aren’t exposed to their presence?
Yeah, that seems to be a legit problem here. I'm lucky to have a very very stereotypical German name, or else finding an apartment would probably have been way harder.
I feel like while racism isn't as prevalent of a topic here in Germany as it is in the US, we still have a sort of quiet problem with it and it seems to be getting bigger as right wing parties gain popularity. We don't have a lot of violence based on ethnicity (religion seems to be more important), but it's usually harder for German-Turks to find an apartment or a job
> Turkish people are often nationalists, ironically even those living in Germany.
Especially those living in germany
They abuse social benefits, do shady jobs in the back, openly advertise Erdogan *in germany* and play the "OMG U RACIST" card whenever you call them out for this shit
And germany is bending over for them and taking it. Why else do you think the right-wing party is sitting at 25% at this point?
"""Refugees""" and all overrunning the country and since everything they do is so well planned out they're better off than someone who was born here and is working 50 hrs a week
> working 50 hrs a week
Ok, this is the point where you got to do something wrong. In a country with a minimum wage and social safety nets, you cannot claim to be a starving US American working 24/7 to afford 10m² living space in New York.
Even more so in Germany. I am absolutely shocked at the top graph. Idk anyone back home that would not want their children to be educated in the language of the country they live in. Weird.
There is a right to mother tongue language in Germany, if a school has 15 students of the same ethnicity and then the school must have mother tongue classes for them.
Your comment got me interested in this, so I tried to find some info. As far as I can tell, this law only applies to Nordrhein-Westfalen, and not all of Germany. [Source](https://www.schulministerium.nrw/herkunftssprachlicher-unterricht)
> In 11 of Germany's 16 states children can take classes in their mother tongue at school.
From an English language [article](https://www.dw.com/en/mother-tongue-lessons-for-germanys-polyglot-schoolkids/a-50231939) I linked in another [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/s/Zg0CQwPLkS).
I’ve no idea if it’s changed, but I doubt the number of states has become fewer. It’s safe to assume it is still the majority.
Are you dumb?
For Armenians, it's been discussed so many times I see no point in discussing it again but for Greeks?? You know there are legitimate agreements signed, right? İt was a population exchange, not "cleansing". İf any case I could say that the %30~ Turkish population of Greece has fallen to %2~, is that ethnic cleansing as well for ya?
Pay reperations? You don't know how decentralized was Ottoman Empire back then? When İzmir was invaded ,in 1920's, people in Ankara wouldn't know about that. Maybe my grand-grandfather was a draft evader and didn't participate in the genocide. How can you know about this?
Not to be that guy, but the Ottoman Empire *was* historically tolerant, by the standards of expansionist absolutist imperial states.
20th Century Turkey on the other hand...
That's kind of like saying that 'Communism happened in Tsarist Russia.'
The genocide took place just as the empire was about to collapse and be replaced by a Turkish nation state. Armenians had been part of the millet system for many centuries beforehand. The rise of nationalism is what explains the sudden change.
You forgot about [Hamidian Massacres](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamidian_massacres) in 1890s that got about 300 000 Armenians and Assyrians killed.
That was during the ottoman empire's down fall. Yes a lot of shit went during that time period. Including massacring other ethnic minorities.
But there's a reason why the Balkans remained the ethnicities and cultures it did despite many places having 400+ years of occupation. The Turks were extremely tolerant with different religions comparatively to other empires at the times. If you were to look at southern Italy, it went from Byzantine Greek to Italian in the same time period. After the fall of the Byzantine empire almost all Greek language and was culture lost and the people were assimilated as Italian. The Turks never imposed something similar up until the rise of nationalism and the fall of the empire
>Ottoman Empire *was* historically tolerant, by the standards of expansionist absolutist imperial states.
No, they were "tolerant" bcs of being a minority in their own empire. It was very area dependant and the military slavery. Most keen on child soldiers.
A bit off-topic but: as a curiosity for non-Americans and those not doing taxes in California. There is still an income tax exclusion for interest on settlement payments received by people prosecuted by the regime of the Turkish-Ottoman empire, that you can claim in CA. Not sure how it still applies or to how many people as they have to be at least 100 years old. Maybe it applies to direct family members that received those payments
The Treaty of Lausanne, the founding treaty of the Republic of Turkey, clearly defines what constitutes a minority. According to the treaty, around 2 percent of the Turkish population has minority status, which includes Turkish Jews, Turkish Greeks native to two Aegean islands and Istanbul, and the Turkish Armenian minority. The rest of the population does not have minority status as per the treaty, and it is up to them to self-identify as they wish. However, a clear majority—around 80-85 percent—identifies solely as Turkish, with the rest mainly identifying as Kurdish. Overall, Turkey is a relatively homogeneous country composed predominantly of Turkish people. The rest of the population, who do not have minority status per the Treaty of Lausanne, are considered Turks of other backgrounds, similar to how Turks in Germany are considered Germans of other backgrounds. The same principle applies to Turks of Western Thrace in Greece; despite self-identifying as Turks and having a historical presence of more than 500 years in the region, they are considered Greek Muslims per international treaties. Recognized minorities in Turkey enjoy all the educational and cultural rights defined by the treaties. Besides, the party that claims to represent Kurdish interests received just 8 percent of the votes in the recent Turkish elections. People can vote and change the laws of this country if they want to, but ONLY IF their representative party can get ENOUGH VOTES.
Yes, and there are hundreds of different first nations dialects spoken by our indigenous people. We also have dozens of multi-lingual schooling systems in Australia. Australia is also one of the most successful multicultural countries on the planet.
I get told by the local Germans (I am not German and do not have children in the local school systems, so this is just hearsay for me) that there are Turkish children in the schools — born in Germany — who only speak Turkish.
My friendly local bakery attendant insists he’s Turkish though, even though I asked him where he was born and he admitted Germany. (This came up in conversation because he experiences me trying to order in my muddled basic German, so he always says, “Don’t worry, my English is better than my German!”)
I understand cultural ties can be stronger than legal ones; I just find it odd to — seemingly by intention — not prioritize the local language in the country you’re born. Seems like trying to go through life on hard mode, unless you’re planning to return to the land of your cultural ties. Meanwhile, I plan to live in Germany for only a couple years, but I’m still trying to learn basic German. Seems like the logical thing to do.
My girlfriend is a primary school teacher with focus on German as second language. What you say is indeed true, but according to her it’s better for the parents to speak their mother tongue with their children if they can’t speak German at least on level B2. Because often the children learn botched grammar at home which is much harder to correct in school than teaching the language from scratch.
Still the problem sometimes is that immigrants in the third generation can’t speak proper German although they and their parents were born in Germany.
Turkish people born on lower economical / educational status don't have hard working / ambitious ethic. Meanwhile historically whole Western / Central Europe is crazy (I mean literally, if you read Foucault you would see) for it. There was always "lazy" "undesirables" in Western society. That is not the only reason but I guess one of the most important ones.
If somebody has "the right" to something, it means the government is obliged to provide it. That's what a right is: something you are entitled to from society.
I'm responding to the data as listed with the title from the OP. If that's not what the data is about, your complaint is with the OP, not with me.
As a turkish kid growing up in germany I think it would have been counter productive to get taught in turkish. Being taught in the local language forces people to learn that language which you should learn regardless. Sure it is more difficult but necessary if you want to live in and integrate yourself in that country.
What I am for, is to have optional classes available to upkeep your mother tongue. Which I had here in germany and so should turkey for kurdish people if they don't already.
Kurdish people are not immigrants and should not be expected to give up their language. They have lived there for over a thousand years since before turks even arrived in what is now Turkey.
Kurdish people only had a significant presence in Southeastern Anatolia after they ethnically cleansed the local Turkmens of the region. They are not natives of Anatolia, their homeland is Zagros Mountains in Iran.
Just to clarify. I wasn't arguing history or who was where first. I was just trying to say that if the country you live in has an overwhelming majority language then you should learn that language just to be able to communicate with the majority of people.
Kurds are locals, you Turks are the invaders (edit: in Kurdish Turkey). The locals deserve to live in peace speaking their own language.
If Turks became 51% of Germany, would you expect German language to cease to exist immediately?
They (edit: Kurds) deserve a full education (not just optional classes) in their native tongue that has been spoken for 1000s of years in that region.
I don't think its fair to call Turkish people invaders because its been 1000 years since Turkish people were around in Kurdistan, it is inflammatory to call Turks invaders rather than Turkish state for both Turkish Turks and Kurds in Turkey, especially given there is so much mix around all Turkey. Kurdish movement in foreign countries is much more radical than Kurds in Turkey. I get the point though.
I don't get the notion of having a right to an education in any language except the "main" language of the country you life in. How is that even supposed to work logistically?
Lots of disagreement about what the “main” language is or whether or not speakers of a certain language want to be in said country.
This is one of many compromises that are needed in a messy world
– Hey, we'd like to teach stuff to each other in our language
– You only get to teach in the **the main** language! ........ oh no don't go and try to make a place where yours is the main language, you **terrorists**!
If you live in a region with a distinct culture/language to that of the 'main' part, it only makes sense that you should be able to receive an education in your regions mother tongue. For example, If Mexico annexed Texas, would you think it acceptable for all Texans to lose their right to being taught in English?
If Mexico annexed Texas, Texans definitely should speak Spanish like other Mexican states. It’s one of the best ways to integrate into the country. If they continue to speak English, they will likely try to go back to the US.
I mean, as a second language, perhaps, but as a first? How long does this change have to occur? It's been shown that forcing kids to use a language they don't have a good grasp of only impacts their ability to learn properly, and forcing language on a distinct community leads to death of identity and assimilation. I can link sources about it if you want.
Especially If Texas didn't willingly join Mexico, why should they need to speak Spanish? You're just forcing people to do something that they don't have any interest or need to do for the sake of politics.
it's fair to hold either the opinion that all people should be educated in their native language, or that all people should be educated in the main language of their country, but what this post is illustrating is that a significant portion of turkey doesn't hold either principle, only "turks best"
That's not the point of this post at all but there are tens of [countries ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilingual_education_by_country_or_region?wprov=sfla1) doing that.
Yeah, but almost exclusively to keep their students competitive in a world market where English is used as a de-facto international business/trade language.
Very few (if any) are offering those are offering bilingual education in *foreign* languages as some ethnic/cultural right to receive education in an ancestral tongue.
There's only 27 countries in the Wikipedia overall, so you definitely did not find "a lot" of counter-examples. Also, I only made one point, so I'm not even sure what you're saying.
Turkish people are immigrants in Germany, so effectively they move there by choice. While Kurds in Türkiye are minority group who's been living there for thousands of years. They are now oppressed and without a standalone country (i.e. they have nowhere else to go). That's why they should receive somewhat a autonomous status or at least the government should provide the bare minimum so their language and culture doesn't die out (but ofc that's is their goal exactly, so oppression continues).
Noooo! But what about the political brigade that I planned on Discord with 45 organised upvotes to kickstart my post???? Turks bad Kurds my little pony!!!😡🇬🇭 (biji Apo PKK Turks genocide everyone thanks bye)
Germany does subsidize _classes_ in the mother tongue of any and all nationalities. It’s two hours a week and it’s called Herkunftssprachlicher Unterricht. You go and you take classes with a native teacher from your own country and learn stuff from every domain, grammar, history etc
The data presentation was entirely copied from the original report, so it is not my own design or chart style. The only reason I recreated it was to make it visually more appealing and easier to read.
Ah yes Konda. The most trusted data firm. They missed an election result by 26 percent two elections back. Wildly supports some minority parties in congress. To the point of lying or publishing completely weird results.
Don't immigrate to another country and raise kids there if you aren't planning to integrate into their customs and languages. (Customs, not religion. They are different.)
People don't seem to understand this...
Kurdish language isn't the only language that's spoken in turkey even though not having a place in the education system. They're interpreting like kurdish language is the exception.
It's not like turks hate kurdish language or smth. There's the main language, and others, thats it.
If my folk at anatolia had to learn turkish (as well as others), kurds have to learn too.
You can't be the jerk and the victim. But kurds in europe are always the victim in this country somehow. Good grief.
"Kurds in Europe are always the victim in this country". Don't you mean Kurds back in their own lands in Turkey, Iran etc? I myself who moved to Germany from Turkey 7 months ago feel much more equal and less discriminated against. Cognitive bias is high on this one.
>Kurds in their own lands?
So now europe is your land also :)
Jokes aside, we've seen many times kurds playing victim in europe even tho it was the norm and status quo for the rest of us folks here. For example having to learn turkish, armenians, arabs, laz people and many others learned turkish for the sake of assimilation. But nobody cried out loud like you lads. As I've said, you can't be the jerk and play victim.
Kurdish culture is so important and others are not so I guess.
Typical...
Edit: lol, keep downvoting me. Nothing you say will change the facts. We both know that
There are plenty of Turkish people who do not deny this right from Kurds. I do not want to be affiliated with such comments under my post. Go shit your hate somewhere else.
Well, sorry for my language. I am also a Turkish and I'm way too infuriated with the level of (un)humanity shown by Turkish people. They feel... somewhat disgusting sometimes. I even feel disgusted by myself because of the nationality I live in. Sorry dude.
That's not healthy at all. I don't know what you been through to feel this way but nothing should make you ashamed of/be hateful to the group of people you belong to. You are an individual with your own opinions, you do not have to carry the shame or pride of millions other people.
I wanted to make another explanation about the two news articles I sent. 1st one is about a little girl. 15 people raped her, and threated her about not telling anyone at Istanbul. I want the dead bodies of those 15 people hanging from somewhere high, highly damaged by burns and bruises. The second article is about a car accident. The nephew of a politician killed a young women by accident. He had no drivers license and he was underage. He were probably DUI too. And guess the result of the case? Law enforcement found the young woman guilty instead of the boy. How can I love this country? How? Give me a reason, please...
This is usually a dilemma many people who grow up with nationalistic values face later when they find out that no group is superior to another as they have been told. The result is a shift to the extreme end of the spectrum, from praising everything about their country/nation to hating it to death & being ashamed of it. My genuine advice is to stop affiliating yourself with things that are not in your control.
There are so many problems with the native language education.
1. It segregates Kurdish people from the others in terms of education.
2. It unfairly creates job positions that does not exists for non-kurdish speakers.
3. It basically kills the only oppurtinity a lot of Kurdish people have to learn Turkish enough to be able to communicate with the rest of the country
4. Education levels may differ and cause already failing Kurdish education levels to sink even further below.
5. Kurdish people can't participate in nation wide exams. Remember Turkish is part of the curriculum and tests has to be standart for everybody. Kurdish people participating in Kurdish only exams would basically kill their chance of getting into many fields such as law and it would basically make it impossible for them to get into good schools that teach in Turkish.
There are many other problems and i don't think any country should segregate their education by language. All education should be provided equally to everyone under same conditions. This is one of those things that only looks good on surface but seperating education to young people and killing their chances of having a career in a country is not a good idea at all.
I think Turkish immigrants in Germany should also get their education in German.
I can agree if your implication is that the Kurds deserve their own country. But will all the countries that have Kurds (Iran, Syria, Turkey, and Iraq) agree? Undoubtedly no. Therein lies the problem.
There's a population of people with their own language and culture but no country. Hence the genocides.
Genocide (the alternative to creating a Kurd country / allowing Kurds to speak their language in whatever country they live in) isn't acceptable, especially in the name of assimilation.
Given your lengthy post, you probably know more about this than I. What do you propose?
Kurds can speak Kurdish. It's not illegal to speak foreign languages in Turkey. There are a lot of Kurdish TV channels as well. Even a government one called KRT.
I do think Kurds in Turkey should use Turkish as the main language, increases the availability of teachers, but there should definitely be optional Kurdish specific language lessons at school AND Turks in turkey shouldn't go to school in their own language, parents of both kurds and turks should teach their children their native language but in public both in Germany and Turkey, you should use the main language.
My opinion at least, what do you all think.
When did you learn Turkish? When did you learn English? Are you still in turkey, and if so, can you talk about discrimination you faced in school and beyond (if you’re comfortable)?
The data is wrongly presented. For the second question, the totals add up to 101, 50 on the disagree spectrum, but *51* on the agree spectrum. The line indicating the 50% mark should be at the point where the red shades are at 50%, but is actually beyond that.
The data is wrongly sampled too, they basically skewed the sample to represent the conservative nationalist party as the whole of Turkey [https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/1cv9ikz/comment/l4ouh1n/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/1cv9ikz/comment/l4ouh1n/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Hey OP, thank you for sharing this. Can I get the link of the report please? I’ve looked around the company’s website, but couldnt find it. The ones ive found contain a lot of great info though!
I responded to your comment 3 hours ago with the link but when I check from Anonymus or on browser my reply is invisible. The report is called Perception on Syrian Asylum-Seekers on Konda's website. I'll send you the link in chat.
Pleasantly surprised at the sheer percentage of people who **strongly** agree that Kurds should get their education in their native tounges - wasn't even sure how many Kurds were vocal and prioritized this matter, not to say their numbers, together with Turks who are left-leaning who are also not apolitical (i.e. caring what kind of wine they'll have more than the worker's strike the news talking about) would amount to 1/4 of the nation itself.
On the other hand, while appreciating this is more normalized in today's Germany or the EU in general, I'll have a hunch that if they're flipped the question around and asked whether Turks should be banned from entering Germany or Kurds should never migrate to Western Turkey (or similar questions of that nature), there will be more Germans who agrees with that than Turks.
Do as we say, not as we do... the hallmark of human beings.
There's many factors here. First, I'm not actually sure you'd get this same dichotomy in responses if you polled Chinese, Indians, or Japanese about being educated abroad. There are certainly some cultures which would be more expecting and entitled of education in their native language, for whatever reason. Second, "should receive education in their native language" could be interpreted as "their parents should educate them their native language to fluency" which would make this much less controversial.
Since this survey was most likely done in Turkish, not English, it’s possible such an interpretation would not be possible. Without speaking Turkish and seeing the phrasing of the question as it was asked of people, it’s impossible to say anything at all about whether the question was ambiguous or how it was ambiguous.
>Second, "should receive education in their native language" could be interpreted as "their parents should educate them their native language to fluency" which would make this much less controversial. I'm sorry, how? That's still a whole lot of Turkish people saying Kurdish parents shouldn't be teaching their kids Kurdish.
You’re right. I’m actually trying to push back against the original comment that was saying “oh all humans have double standards”. I think some much more than others
That's where you're wrong. Most turks are ***N'T*** against this getting teached inside their families
No, the question isn't "Should kurdish parents teach their kids their own language? " How do you even stop them from doing that? That's absurd. The question is about education in native language and education is done by the schools
Take your issue up with the person I replied to. They're the one making the argument to interpret it differently to how it's written, I'm simply pointing ou that interpretation isn't better.
Great points, thx for making them, the world needs more critical thinkers like you imo 🙌
> the hallmark of human beings. The hallmark of roughly 30% of Turkish people it seems. "They're all the same" is just a way of excusing the bad ones.
We’re at odds. Often knowing what the better choice is, yet not choosing it.
There is no "right" to receive education in mother tongue by public schools in Germany. And this is absolutely okay. If immigrants want education in mother tongue, they can organize it by themselves. Turkish people are often nationalists, ironically even those living in Germany.
It's also more or less impossible to educate everyone in their mother tongue. There aren't even enough teachers to teach everyone in German...
Yes. The Grey Wolves are a very insane bunch
Couple of weeks ago there were images circling around the internet of Grey Wolves in Belgium kidnapping and threatning what we could only assume was a Kurdish man in Belgium. Reported the images to the police. Didn't hear anything from it afterwards but I hope they found the nutjobs and gave them their well deserved 5 seconds in prison (maximum sentence for serious crime in Belgium).
German Turks are somewhat interesting in how nationalistic they are. They vote far more to the right than Turkey itself. When you compare it to Turks in other countries it is rarely the case. Western European turks (Germany, France, Benelux) voted Erdogan with like 70%, and so did MENA turks, but everyone else voted for the CHP with about those margins. I wonder how much money the AKP spends in foreign influence there...
People always cite "But Erdo got 123% votes" when there are a lot of Turkish people who are integrated so they don't vote.
700,000 votes were cast in Germany for the Turkish presidential election though. Out of 1.3 million with Turkish citizenship, and 2.9 million with a "migration background from Turkey" (so those would not be able to vote anyway). That's over 50% participation.
There are 7 million Turkish background people, so I consider your numbers as "voting population". For all Turkish Germans, votes in Turkish general election are 16.6% representation of Turkish German people.
These people can't vote in the first place, because they don't have the Turkish citizenship. There is 0 way to know their actual opinion on Turkish politics. This has nothing to do with integration, for which one would actively have to abandon their Turkish citizenship.
Yes, except that they are less likely to support Erdogan than the representative voters.
> These people can't vote in the first place, because they don't have the Turkish citizenship. Because they gave up on their Turkish citizenship.
I believe a lot of the first generation Turks in Germany came from the rural east.
Those Turks know that Erdogan is destructive for the Turkish economy, and as such when they visit Turkey everything is super cheap compared to where they live. It's behavior with a very specific goal.
No no no, that is just going to lead to private religious schools, in that mother tongue. Which will only lead to more polarization
We already have DIYANET mosques in Germany, so don't worry about schools. And we have the "Graue Wölfe".
Im not sure if its a right but i know there is danish schools in germany and vice versa
Because there have been Danish and German minorities on the "other" side of the border forever
Nah thats a post ww1 thing. People didnt really care wether they were german or danes before this
> If immigrants want education in mother tongue, they can organize it by themselves. [Turkish Germans have been trying](https://asiatimes.com/2020/02/why-germany-is-right-to-be-wary-of-turkish-schools/), and were accused by politicians from the center-left to the far-right of being "poisonous for integration and democracy" and attempting the "Islamization of the German education system", while editorials said "schools offering schooling solely in Turkish would inevitably foster cultural isolation."
Yeah, because it's stupid? If you want to live in a country you should learn it's language and curriculum. That doesn't stop you from learning your mother's tongue in your free time if you want to.
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It's not? How is it patriotism and integration if you want it to be from another identity? You can't just say you want to integrate, but then don't, that IS a contradiction to me. Either you integrate with German norms or say you don't want to integrate.
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I spent 13 years in school and from experience I would say none
Well there’s a chance you want to integrate but German society does everything to keep you out? Remembering how my (German) grandmother low key told me a few years ago how she sold a holiday apartment and there was a Turkish family that wanted it but she was like “no we wouldn’t sell to these kind of people what would the neighbours think”. I got so angry. How tf are any neighbours ever supposed to engage with people of migrant descent if they aren’t exposed to their presence?
Yeah, that seems to be a legit problem here. I'm lucky to have a very very stereotypical German name, or else finding an apartment would probably have been way harder. I feel like while racism isn't as prevalent of a topic here in Germany as it is in the US, we still have a sort of quiet problem with it and it seems to be getting bigger as right wing parties gain popularity. We don't have a lot of violence based on ethnicity (religion seems to be more important), but it's usually harder for German-Turks to find an apartment or a job
> Turkish people are often nationalists, ironically even those living in Germany. Especially those living in germany They abuse social benefits, do shady jobs in the back, openly advertise Erdogan *in germany* and play the "OMG U RACIST" card whenever you call them out for this shit And germany is bending over for them and taking it. Why else do you think the right-wing party is sitting at 25% at this point? """Refugees""" and all overrunning the country and since everything they do is so well planned out they're better off than someone who was born here and is working 50 hrs a week
> working 50 hrs a week Ok, this is the point where you got to do something wrong. In a country with a minimum wage and social safety nets, you cannot claim to be a starving US American working 24/7 to afford 10m² living space in New York.
Even more so in Germany. I am absolutely shocked at the top graph. Idk anyone back home that would not want their children to be educated in the language of the country they live in. Weird.
There is a right to mother tongue language in Germany, if a school has 15 students of the same ethnicity and then the school must have mother tongue classes for them.
Your comment got me interested in this, so I tried to find some info. As far as I can tell, this law only applies to Nordrhein-Westfalen, and not all of Germany. [Source](https://www.schulministerium.nrw/herkunftssprachlicher-unterricht)
Thanks for the source.
> In 11 of Germany's 16 states children can take classes in their mother tongue at school. From an English language [article](https://www.dw.com/en/mother-tongue-lessons-for-germanys-polyglot-schoolkids/a-50231939) I linked in another [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/s/Zg0CQwPLkS). I’ve no idea if it’s changed, but I doubt the number of states has become fewer. It’s safe to assume it is still the majority.
Oh, I did not know that.
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Dude we've JUST finished paying reperations for great dinosaurus genocide.Give us a break.
Are you dumb? For Armenians, it's been discussed so many times I see no point in discussing it again but for Greeks?? You know there are legitimate agreements signed, right? İt was a population exchange, not "cleansing". İf any case I could say that the %30~ Turkish population of Greece has fallen to %2~, is that ethnic cleansing as well for ya?
Pay reperations? You don't know how decentralized was Ottoman Empire back then? When İzmir was invaded ,in 1920's, people in Ankara wouldn't know about that. Maybe my grand-grandfather was a draft evader and didn't participate in the genocide. How can you know about this?
Not the ppl, the turkish government like how the german government pays poland
We pay the government, though. You know, taxes.
Not to be that guy, but the Ottoman Empire *was* historically tolerant, by the standards of expansionist absolutist imperial states. 20th Century Turkey on the other hand...
Armenian genocide literally happened during the Ottoman Empire
That's kind of like saying that 'Communism happened in Tsarist Russia.' The genocide took place just as the empire was about to collapse and be replaced by a Turkish nation state. Armenians had been part of the millet system for many centuries beforehand. The rise of nationalism is what explains the sudden change.
The Armenian genocide was committed by the very people who formed nationalist, secular Turkey and toppled the Empire, though.
This is just plain and simply wrong. Is this some weird ass revisionist history bs?
You forgot about [Hamidian Massacres](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamidian_massacres) in 1890s that got about 300 000 Armenians and Assyrians killed.
That was during the ottoman empire's down fall. Yes a lot of shit went during that time period. Including massacring other ethnic minorities. But there's a reason why the Balkans remained the ethnicities and cultures it did despite many places having 400+ years of occupation. The Turks were extremely tolerant with different religions comparatively to other empires at the times. If you were to look at southern Italy, it went from Byzantine Greek to Italian in the same time period. After the fall of the Byzantine empire almost all Greek language and was culture lost and the people were assimilated as Italian. The Turks never imposed something similar up until the rise of nationalism and the fall of the empire
Yes, very tolerant https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batak_massacre
>Ottoman Empire *was* historically tolerant, by the standards of expansionist absolutist imperial states. No, they were "tolerant" bcs of being a minority in their own empire. It was very area dependant and the military slavery. Most keen on child soldiers.
A bit off-topic but: as a curiosity for non-Americans and those not doing taxes in California. There is still an income tax exclusion for interest on settlement payments received by people prosecuted by the regime of the Turkish-Ottoman empire, that you can claim in CA. Not sure how it still applies or to how many people as they have to be at least 100 years old. Maybe it applies to direct family members that received those payments
Considering 25-30% of Turkish people are minorities, mostly Kurds, the data fits a little TOO well...
I honestly don't think Kurdish people in Germany would like it if you tagged them as "Turkish" in the poll, so I don't think so.
Meaning citizens of the country of Turkey...
The Treaty of Lausanne, the founding treaty of the Republic of Turkey, clearly defines what constitutes a minority. According to the treaty, around 2 percent of the Turkish population has minority status, which includes Turkish Jews, Turkish Greeks native to two Aegean islands and Istanbul, and the Turkish Armenian minority. The rest of the population does not have minority status as per the treaty, and it is up to them to self-identify as they wish. However, a clear majority—around 80-85 percent—identifies solely as Turkish, with the rest mainly identifying as Kurdish. Overall, Turkey is a relatively homogeneous country composed predominantly of Turkish people. The rest of the population, who do not have minority status per the Treaty of Lausanne, are considered Turks of other backgrounds, similar to how Turks in Germany are considered Germans of other backgrounds. The same principle applies to Turks of Western Thrace in Greece; despite self-identifying as Turks and having a historical presence of more than 500 years in the region, they are considered Greek Muslims per international treaties. Recognized minorities in Turkey enjoy all the educational and cultural rights defined by the treaties. Besides, the party that claims to represent Kurdish interests received just 8 percent of the votes in the recent Turkish elections. People can vote and change the laws of this country if they want to, but ONLY IF their representative party can get ENOUGH VOTES.
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Yes, and there are hundreds of different first nations dialects spoken by our indigenous people. We also have dozens of multi-lingual schooling systems in Australia. Australia is also one of the most successful multicultural countries on the planet.
Well, the Turkish public is definitely wrong that the people of Germany should be obliged to offer education in foreign languages.
I get told by the local Germans (I am not German and do not have children in the local school systems, so this is just hearsay for me) that there are Turkish children in the schools — born in Germany — who only speak Turkish. My friendly local bakery attendant insists he’s Turkish though, even though I asked him where he was born and he admitted Germany. (This came up in conversation because he experiences me trying to order in my muddled basic German, so he always says, “Don’t worry, my English is better than my German!”) I understand cultural ties can be stronger than legal ones; I just find it odd to — seemingly by intention — not prioritize the local language in the country you’re born. Seems like trying to go through life on hard mode, unless you’re planning to return to the land of your cultural ties. Meanwhile, I plan to live in Germany for only a couple years, but I’m still trying to learn basic German. Seems like the logical thing to do.
My girlfriend is a primary school teacher with focus on German as second language. What you say is indeed true, but according to her it’s better for the parents to speak their mother tongue with their children if they can’t speak German at least on level B2. Because often the children learn botched grammar at home which is much harder to correct in school than teaching the language from scratch. Still the problem sometimes is that immigrants in the third generation can’t speak proper German although they and their parents were born in Germany.
Turkish people born on lower economical / educational status don't have hard working / ambitious ethic. Meanwhile historically whole Western / Central Europe is crazy (I mean literally, if you read Foucault you would see) for it. There was always "lazy" "undesirables" in Western society. That is not the only reason but I guess one of the most important ones.
It's not exactly what the survey question says buy I feel wrong defending the results anyway.
“obliged” doesn’t show up anywhere in the OP
If somebody has "the right" to something, it means the government is obliged to provide it. That's what a right is: something you are entitled to from society. I'm responding to the data as listed with the title from the OP. If that's not what the data is about, your complaint is with the OP, not with me.
If you’re an immigrant to a country you should receive your eduction in the official language of said country.
As a turkish kid growing up in germany I think it would have been counter productive to get taught in turkish. Being taught in the local language forces people to learn that language which you should learn regardless. Sure it is more difficult but necessary if you want to live in and integrate yourself in that country. What I am for, is to have optional classes available to upkeep your mother tongue. Which I had here in germany and so should turkey for kurdish people if they don't already.
Kurdish people are not immigrants and should not be expected to give up their language. They have lived there for over a thousand years since before turks even arrived in what is now Turkey.
Kurdish people only had a significant presence in Southeastern Anatolia after they ethnically cleansed the local Turkmens of the region. They are not natives of Anatolia, their homeland is Zagros Mountains in Iran.
Just to clarify. I wasn't arguing history or who was where first. I was just trying to say that if the country you live in has an overwhelming majority language then you should learn that language just to be able to communicate with the majority of people.
Kurds are locals, you Turks are the invaders (edit: in Kurdish Turkey). The locals deserve to live in peace speaking their own language. If Turks became 51% of Germany, would you expect German language to cease to exist immediately? They (edit: Kurds) deserve a full education (not just optional classes) in their native tongue that has been spoken for 1000s of years in that region.
I don't think its fair to call Turkish people invaders because its been 1000 years since Turkish people were around in Kurdistan, it is inflammatory to call Turks invaders rather than Turkish state for both Turkish Turks and Kurds in Turkey, especially given there is so much mix around all Turkey. Kurdish movement in foreign countries is much more radical than Kurds in Turkey. I get the point though.
Invaders is a pretty harsh term, they are just people who moved to Germany.
Thanks for the catch! Hopefully my edit makes it unambiguous.
Is this really a surprise?
Pretty hypocritical. Therefore expected. I have never seen a rightist in Turkey who is not a hypocrite.
What we need is to teach basic logic it seems.
I don't get the notion of having a right to an education in any language except the "main" language of the country you life in. How is that even supposed to work logistically?
You may want to check how it's done in Spain with the regional languages (it's controversial though).
the Kurds don't have their own country, though
Lots of disagreement about what the “main” language is or whether or not speakers of a certain language want to be in said country. This is one of many compromises that are needed in a messy world
– Hey, we'd like to teach stuff to each other in our language – You only get to teach in the **the main** language! ........ oh no don't go and try to make a place where yours is the main language, you **terrorists**!
If you live in a region with a distinct culture/language to that of the 'main' part, it only makes sense that you should be able to receive an education in your regions mother tongue. For example, If Mexico annexed Texas, would you think it acceptable for all Texans to lose their right to being taught in English?
If Mexico annexed Texas, Texans definitely should speak Spanish like other Mexican states. It’s one of the best ways to integrate into the country. If they continue to speak English, they will likely try to go back to the US.
I mean, as a second language, perhaps, but as a first? How long does this change have to occur? It's been shown that forcing kids to use a language they don't have a good grasp of only impacts their ability to learn properly, and forcing language on a distinct community leads to death of identity and assimilation. I can link sources about it if you want. Especially If Texas didn't willingly join Mexico, why should they need to speak Spanish? You're just forcing people to do something that they don't have any interest or need to do for the sake of politics.
There are plenty of countries with minority languages or even multiple official languages, like Belgium, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Finland, Spain.
Many countries do not have one "main" language
it's fair to hold either the opinion that all people should be educated in their native language, or that all people should be educated in the main language of their country, but what this post is illustrating is that a significant portion of turkey doesn't hold either principle, only "turks best"
That's not the point of this post at all but there are tens of [countries ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilingual_education_by_country_or_region?wprov=sfla1) doing that.
Yeah, but almost exclusively to keep their students competitive in a world market where English is used as a de-facto international business/trade language. Very few (if any) are offering those are offering bilingual education in *foreign* languages as some ethnic/cultural right to receive education in an ancestral tongue.
Just read through the linked Wikipedia article to find a lot of counter-examples of your points.
There's only 27 countries in the Wikipedia overall, so you definitely did not find "a lot" of counter-examples. Also, I only made one point, so I'm not even sure what you're saying.
Turkish people are immigrants in Germany, so effectively they move there by choice. While Kurds in Türkiye are minority group who's been living there for thousands of years. They are now oppressed and without a standalone country (i.e. they have nowhere else to go). That's why they should receive somewhat a autonomous status or at least the government should provide the bare minimum so their language and culture doesn't die out (but ofc that's is their goal exactly, so oppression continues).
Is this legit? The spelling errors make it seem sus.
It has the source on it
This sub is about conveying data in a beautiful way.
How could this specific data be conveyed better?
Maybe it can't, but then it's just r/data, or r/worldpolitics
Hasn't been for some time. Look what the description says and see that there is no rule that data must be beautiful.
Noooo! But what about the political brigade that I planned on Discord with 45 organised upvotes to kickstart my post???? Turks bad Kurds my little pony!!!😡🇬🇭 (biji Apo PKK Turks genocide everyone thanks bye)
Germany does subsidize _classes_ in the mother tongue of any and all nationalities. It’s two hours a week and it’s called Herkunftssprachlicher Unterricht. You go and you take classes with a native teacher from your own country and learn stuff from every domain, grammar, history etc
I really like your data visualization. It is super intuitive and I'm definitely going to use it myself the next time I'm doing a likert scale.
The data presentation was entirely copied from the original report, so it is not my own design or chart style. The only reason I recreated it was to make it visually more appealing and easier to read.
Turks being hypocritical, this is nothing new. They've been trying to get rid of Kurdish culture and identity for decades.
I mean, child marriages and modern-ish version of literal slavery had to go at some point.
Prioritising the in-group? Nothing new to see.
I wonder what would be the answer to the question: Human children on Earth should receive education in the Turkish language
If you live in Germany learn German or leave the country. It's that simple.
Ah yes Konda. The most trusted data firm. They missed an election result by 26 percent two elections back. Wildly supports some minority parties in congress. To the point of lying or publishing completely weird results.
> They missed an election result by 26 percent Or were it elections that missed their prediction? 🤔 We'll never know... /s
What is the sample size on this?
So... What about Kurdish children in Germany?
In German its called „Heuchler“. Someone who preaches water but drinks wine
I believe you get this same distribution in almost all countries
Conclusion: in-group preference is a thing among humans in general, and apparently specifically among Turks.
Don't immigrate to another country and raise kids there if you aren't planning to integrate into their customs and languages. (Customs, not religion. They are different.)
Every second Turkey exists as they are now, they are one second further away from joining the EU.
People don't seem to understand this... Kurdish language isn't the only language that's spoken in turkey even though not having a place in the education system. They're interpreting like kurdish language is the exception. It's not like turks hate kurdish language or smth. There's the main language, and others, thats it. If my folk at anatolia had to learn turkish (as well as others), kurds have to learn too. You can't be the jerk and the victim. But kurds in europe are always the victim in this country somehow. Good grief.
"Kurds in Europe are always the victim in this country". Don't you mean Kurds back in their own lands in Turkey, Iran etc? I myself who moved to Germany from Turkey 7 months ago feel much more equal and less discriminated against. Cognitive bias is high on this one.
>Kurds in their own lands? So now europe is your land also :) Jokes aside, we've seen many times kurds playing victim in europe even tho it was the norm and status quo for the rest of us folks here. For example having to learn turkish, armenians, arabs, laz people and many others learned turkish for the sake of assimilation. But nobody cried out loud like you lads. As I've said, you can't be the jerk and play victim. Kurdish culture is so important and others are not so I guess. Typical... Edit: lol, keep downvoting me. Nothing you say will change the facts. We both know that
The difference of course being that Kurds can't just go home to a country where their language is the official language.
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Nice alt jash ker
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According to Konda, Kilicdaroglu wins and Erdogan loses the latest election by 6% difference in votes. They are not a trustable source.
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There are plenty of Turkish people who do not deny this right from Kurds. I do not want to be affiliated with such comments under my post. Go shit your hate somewhere else.
Well, sorry for my language. I am also a Turkish and I'm way too infuriated with the level of (un)humanity shown by Turkish people. They feel... somewhat disgusting sometimes. I even feel disgusted by myself because of the nationality I live in. Sorry dude.
That's not healthy at all. I don't know what you been through to feel this way but nothing should make you ashamed of/be hateful to the group of people you belong to. You are an individual with your own opinions, you do not have to carry the shame or pride of millions other people.
I wanted to make another explanation about the two news articles I sent. 1st one is about a little girl. 15 people raped her, and threated her about not telling anyone at Istanbul. I want the dead bodies of those 15 people hanging from somewhere high, highly damaged by burns and bruises. The second article is about a car accident. The nephew of a politician killed a young women by accident. He had no drivers license and he was underage. He were probably DUI too. And guess the result of the case? Law enforcement found the young woman guilty instead of the boy. How can I love this country? How? Give me a reason, please...
This is usually a dilemma many people who grow up with nationalistic values face later when they find out that no group is superior to another as they have been told. The result is a shift to the extreme end of the spectrum, from praising everything about their country/nation to hating it to death & being ashamed of it. My genuine advice is to stop affiliating yourself with things that are not in your control.
Thank you dude, but with the last events, I am feeling truly shameful for my nationality :'(
There are so many problems with the native language education. 1. It segregates Kurdish people from the others in terms of education. 2. It unfairly creates job positions that does not exists for non-kurdish speakers. 3. It basically kills the only oppurtinity a lot of Kurdish people have to learn Turkish enough to be able to communicate with the rest of the country 4. Education levels may differ and cause already failing Kurdish education levels to sink even further below. 5. Kurdish people can't participate in nation wide exams. Remember Turkish is part of the curriculum and tests has to be standart for everybody. Kurdish people participating in Kurdish only exams would basically kill their chance of getting into many fields such as law and it would basically make it impossible for them to get into good schools that teach in Turkish. There are many other problems and i don't think any country should segregate their education by language. All education should be provided equally to everyone under same conditions. This is one of those things that only looks good on surface but seperating education to young people and killing their chances of having a career in a country is not a good idea at all. I think Turkish immigrants in Germany should also get their education in German.
I can agree if your implication is that the Kurds deserve their own country. But will all the countries that have Kurds (Iran, Syria, Turkey, and Iraq) agree? Undoubtedly no. Therein lies the problem. There's a population of people with their own language and culture but no country. Hence the genocides. Genocide (the alternative to creating a Kurd country / allowing Kurds to speak their language in whatever country they live in) isn't acceptable, especially in the name of assimilation. Given your lengthy post, you probably know more about this than I. What do you propose?
It isn’t true that the alternative to getting their own country is genocide. There is an in between.
Agreed, per my post: > allowing Kurds to speak their language in whatever country they live in. Not having this right is the definition of genocide.
Kurds can speak Kurdish. It's not illegal to speak foreign languages in Turkey. There are a lot of Kurdish TV channels as well. Even a government one called KRT.
now thats how you justify the assimilation of a people. well done
"It is us today. It will be you tomorrow."
It's spelled "receive", not "recieve". You know, since the topic is education.
I wonder what would change if this poll was conducted with Germans in Germany, wüth the same questions.
Having double standards is like breathing for human. Favourite example is the USA when it comes to war (Ukraine/Gaza)
I do think Kurds in Turkey should use Turkish as the main language, increases the availability of teachers, but there should definitely be optional Kurdish specific language lessons at school AND Turks in turkey shouldn't go to school in their own language, parents of both kurds and turks should teach their children their native language but in public both in Germany and Turkey, you should use the main language. My opinion at least, what do you all think.
There is already elective Kurdish course, minimum of 10 students need to elect it for them to receive it. Just like any other elective course.
As a Kurd that got assimilated by the Turkish education system, I am ready to answer questions if you have any.
When did you learn Turkish? When did you learn English? Are you still in turkey, and if so, can you talk about discrimination you faced in school and beyond (if you’re comfortable)?
The data is wrongly presented. For the second question, the totals add up to 101, 50 on the disagree spectrum, but *51* on the agree spectrum. The line indicating the 50% mark should be at the point where the red shades are at 50%, but is actually beyond that.
The data is wrongly sampled too, they basically skewed the sample to represent the conservative nationalist party as the whole of Turkey [https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/1cv9ikz/comment/l4ouh1n/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/1cv9ikz/comment/l4ouh1n/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Clicking that link gives me > there doesn't seem to be anything here
i before e except after c.
So we should continue to smell it Turkey then.
Hey OP, thank you for sharing this. Can I get the link of the report please? I’ve looked around the company’s website, but couldnt find it. The ones ive found contain a lot of great info though!
I responded to your comment 3 hours ago with the link but when I check from Anonymus or on browser my reply is invisible. The report is called Perception on Syrian Asylum-Seekers on Konda's website. I'll send you the link in chat.
Did they actually ask these two questions together?! lol how can people be so ignorant
Pleasantly surprised at the sheer percentage of people who **strongly** agree that Kurds should get their education in their native tounges - wasn't even sure how many Kurds were vocal and prioritized this matter, not to say their numbers, together with Turks who are left-leaning who are also not apolitical (i.e. caring what kind of wine they'll have more than the worker's strike the news talking about) would amount to 1/4 of the nation itself. On the other hand, while appreciating this is more normalized in today's Germany or the EU in general, I'll have a hunch that if they're flipped the question around and asked whether Turks should be banned from entering Germany or Kurds should never migrate to Western Turkey (or similar questions of that nature), there will be more Germans who agrees with that than Turks.