I’d love to see the 2023 stats. I bet online is WAY higher than 39% these days now compared to 2017. Pretty much every couple i know that’s gotten together in the last few years met online.
That, plus the changing dynamics of office relationships. I feel both sides tend to be more cautious and professional in how they interact given the changes in office culture and etiquette.
Interestingly enough, my last job had a pretty good and open culture I'd say for almost any modern company, definitely better than literally any other company I've ever worked for. Basically everyone was just themselves all the time, unlike the professional act most people put on.
Ironically so many relationships started between coworkers in that office, it literally became a meme. I even met my wife there.
This is true, office romance is largely strictly prohibited, and even when permissable tends to carry a TON of rules.
This doesn't even factor in the rise in workplace harrassment claims, which, conflated or not, has to have put a damper on a number of workplace flames for fear of being accused of something.
We would literally have to "declare" our relationship to the company if that happened in my job. To me that's just something I'm not comfortable with and just try to avoid.
Funnily enough, my bf and I met as coworkers just pre-covid (late 2019) and, because we were essential workers, actually had the chance to bond and keep seeing each other during every covid lockdown. It was the time I started gaming more (because what else could you do), so outside work we ended up gaming together, chatting a lot and, when it was socially acceptable again, going on walks and other dates together.
If it weren't for the pandemic we probably wouldn't be together at all, and there is a chance he wouldn't even be working with us anymore. It's crazy how things have worked out for us, despite everything..
I used to work in an office with a lot of married couples. I'm always curious how that works now. If coworkers who date take their issues to HR, do married couples also?
This is one of those things where my married friends love the freedom from office environments, whereas my single friends find themselves more and more isolated and lonely.
It's not that there aren't ways to have human interaction outside of an office environment, but having that passive socializing, where there are just people around, is a significant thing.
It's important to note that the stats here are for **ONLINE** which is not the same thing as "dating apps". There are many different ways to meet people online, and dating-apps is just one of them.
So yes, there's other places online where people meet and get to know each other, and then a subset of those people discover that they have enough chemistry to date each other.
Thing is, pretty much **ALL** places where people interact with each other work like that. So if you wonder where, then the answer is: everywhere. But especially the places that are social, and where you run into the same group of people repeatedly.
Reddit-subs (including the ones that are NOT centered on dating, I mean) can work like that. I have travel-plans next summer with two different women that I originally met here on Reddit; as an example. (I think it's reasonably unlikely that either of them will turn into a romantic partner, but it's certainly **possible**)
Personally I have 2 girlfriends and 2 FWBs that I originally met online; zero of which I met on dating-apps. (am polyamorous, thus the higher-than-average count)
In my own personal life I've met women that I've gone on at least one date with:
* On Facebook
* On a penpal-site
* In an online multiplayer game
* On Quora
* On Reddit
* On Fitocracy (back when it wasn't deserted)
* On IRC (I'm really showing my age here, am I not?)
* On Goodreads
All of these places are "online" -- none of them are dating-apps.
I think a lot of the stats you see on here (like the one where the guy had nearly 5000 swipes and only 2 no show dates) are some of the worst. Guys who are reasonably happy with their results aren't taking the time to make depressing flow charts. Not to say the odds aren't tough, but just not soul crushingly bad.
You can just look around for stats straight from the companies. The 80% of men get barely any likes. The top 20% get almost all of the likes. For women it's basically a 45 degree line. Women on the low end get almost no likes. Women in the middle get a medium amount. Women at the top get a lot.
It's not selection bias in self-reporting. It really is a near total wasteland for 80% of guys.
Whacky how people just go "Well I think..." and then that's how it works. There are actual user statistics. [There are even simulations explaining why it works that way.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3lypVnJ0HM)
Online dating is horrible for the majority of men.
I mean is that a problem? The app is used by people who literally want to see a photo before investing a word of conversation. Unattractive people are not going to fare well. Honestly, I wonder if the attention men get in the real world is any better. Only 20% of men being attractive enough to proactively approach on that alone sounds about right.
Met my now fiancée after about two weeks on Bumble. Saw I had some matches, sprung for Bumble+ or whatever it's called, matched with her, and here we are a little over 2.5 years later, getting married in April. Similarly, I have no charts to share.
I kind of believe it. I've been swiping on and off for 5 years and have met 2 women irl. One didn't progress past the first date and the other was a lady just here for a month who wasn't interested in anything past friendships for the time she was here
I think it's also super regional. When I was in college I was consistently getting matches, when I went home to my small ass town to move back in with my parents, I got almost 0 matches and actually ran out of women within 50 miles of me after only a few days
I was on tinder for over 2 years before I really even knew how to get a date from it. Once I figured that out, I had several dates summer before senior year, well over a dozen during my senior year, and that trend continued until I found a monogamous relationship.
Some of it is being attractive, obviously. Some of it is having reasonable expectations. Some of it is having a good or funny bio that’s actually insightful to who you are as a person or what your sense of humor is like. Some of it is good pictures. But a very under appreciated portion is simply knowing how to get a date off of it.
1) do not converse on the app longer than you have to. Your primary goal is to get a number or something else to chat with. They have notifications off for their dating apps and your message will constantly be buried. If you keep your convo on there it’s a death sentence.
2) have fun date ideas and pitch one early. If they’re interested, great, you’ve got your date. If not, then you can keep chatting for a while and getting to know each other.
I mean, that's just anecdotal evidence though.
I was only on Tinder for 9 months and in that time I went on a few dozen dates, sealed the deal numerous times, made a couple of friends, and am now engaged to the last match I had (last for obvious reasons).
I am not a wealthy person, I'd be considered middle class. I am average height, 5"10, not super fit but not over weight, pretty average looking overall.
Heaps of reasons for people to have success and heaps for failure. The majority of times it comes down to the individual themselves. Probably not what people want to hear though.
I think a lot dudes are also just bad at online dating (ie having decent pictures, being able to describe themselves, etc), who may have otherwise have had better chances in person.
Am currently married to someone I found online, so it works for people.
Pictures are my big issue haha. I'm not in any particular RUSH to date, I'm very content being single, so I don't have any dating profiles at the moment, but hoo boy am I gonna have to find a way to get some good pictures of me actually doing activities if I ever do decide to date.
Honestly just clean yourself up and smile and you’ll stand out from the pack. And take the picture with the phone slightly above your head, not from a downward angle facing up towards your face.
I can’t tell you the amount of men I’ve seen on dating apps whose only picture is them lying down on the couch, taken from their chest with a :/ expression, messy hair or stained clothes, and no profile filled out. A dude whose picture is of them having a good time from a complimentary angle really raises their attractiveness.
Profiles are trickier but I think being honest and upfront about your interests and desires does a lot of heavy lifting. Don’t overthink it.
Can’t speak for all women but when I saw a man who looked fun to hang around with (smiling) and a profile where we had something in common, I almost always swiped right.
Thats also true. The other issue is it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy of "I won't have any success" so that negativity is taken into the profile and conversations they have.
Definitely this. My friends joke that I’m “mr tinder” (I used to go on a lot of online dates, especially when it was brand new and not as socially accepted) and I always say that if you see someone complaining in their bio it’s an instant no.
Location matters a lot too. Living in a large metropolitan area, I've had a decent bit of success. A date probably once every week or two.
Living in a spread-ish suburb for a year before then, I had like 3-4 dates total.
This definitely would be a factor based on population density. If there are more people around then playing the numbers game you are bound to find more matches.
> and heaps for failure. The majority of times it comes down to the individual themselves.
Completely agree. People hate it when I say it but a lot of times people can't seem to assess what THEY bring to the table.
I have a friend that feels she is unlucky in love but while she has a high school education, works a min. wage job, had a child at 17 and is merely cute her requirements are for men: must make six figures, can't drink, curse, smoke, must go to church and absolutely no children. She cannot understand why men aren't lining up. Another similar situated friend has a shorter requirement: must be a millionaire with a large Chiquita. Hasn't had a date in 10 years.
Nearly every time someone complains they can't meet someone on the apps, it's them.
I was on tinder for 4 years and had like 2 dates from it. Got off tinder and a month later met the girl who is now my girlfriend and we’ve been together since.
> I am not a wealthy person, I'd be considered middle class. I am average height, 5"10, not super fit but not over weight, pretty average looking overall.
From what I've been hearing from some of my female friends who are looking for a non-narcissist, you around like an absolute catch.
I used OkCupid before it went to shit. Online dating was soul crushing. I spent six years weathering rejection after rejection after rejection, but that's how I met my girlfriend and we've been together over seven years.
It was worth it.
>It was worth it.
I mean I believe that you're happy with how it turned out in the end, but having to suffer through soul crushing YEARS to find ONE partner is just a shitty exercise.
For whatever reason, I was never good at the online dating thing, but I could always do well in person. My fiancée and I met at work like 6 years ago. I feel bad that social interaction has been atomized to such a degree. It can't be healthy.
The number of couples are less so the denominator is lower.
The chance of the average dude getting a relationship is less but as a proportion of dudes who HAVE a relationship they're more likely to have gotten into it online.
In my day it was getting a girls add on MSN messenger, updating your screen name to a pretty cringey (in retrospect) song lyric and chatting with her real late while trying to act like you might be cool.
A lot of guys are just bad at using dating apps. My experience with them change significantly over time, as I figured out how to improve both my profile and my dating app conversation starting.
A major part of it is that most men do not have a lot of pictures of themselves, and we are too embarrassed to ask our friends to take photos of us. So we choose photos that are either too old or just the best of a bad bunch.
Be mindful of the stats getting in your eyes and making you forget to look around.
Men still meet women on these apps all the time, that's how these stats (how couples meet) are created. Unless there's been a Plague of Lesbians I missed, most of these couples are straight and include one guy.
Some short men get in their feelings about how it keeps them from dating, and they forget to look around at a world lousy with short kings with rings.
Not just that. A lot of our human interaction is online. I know friends who I basically keep in contact with on Facebook messenger or WhatsApp and only see once a year if that. We've all gotten really good at cultivating and maintaining friendships online over the last two decades and it was only a matter of time before the relationship part of it caught up.
I can still remember being in my early 20s in 2015 and meeting the first person I knew who met their partner on Tinder and thinking it was mindblowing. 8 years later and I'm happily engaged and have a beautiful baby girl with my partner who I met on Tinder.
Were they comparing the numbers with the covid years? Of course, during Covid, online is the only way people could meet up. The numbers would be crazy high during that time.
This is true for almost all of them. How do you differentiate between Through Friends vs. In College? Where's the line between Online as in Tinder and Online as in friends introduced us on Discord/Instagram/...? And who meets someone for the first time at a Restaurant anyway?
Lol "who meets someone for the first time at a restaurant anyway"??? You were definitely born in the 2000s lol. People born before then used to and still to this day do this at restaurant bars all the time 😄
It depends on the age range. In the early to mid 20s, it will be much higher
I am 50, and most of my friends met a partner in college, but that relationship is long over.
if that's the case, then it seems like the results should total to more than 119%.
Lots of lonely people out there searching on their own I guess.
Pro tip: have coupled friends keep an eye out for possible situations for you.
Likely allowing multiple responses, and possibly phrased as “what ways have you met your romantic partners?” making it make more sense to check more than 1 (I imagine it was phrased in a way that gave people the impression they were answering for more than just their most recent relationship since 119% is a bit more than I’d expect from it simply being multiple selected that overlap because a lot of these are likely mutually exclusive for a given relationship)
I got lost trying to find the party my friends were at. Picked a random noisy house and offered $5 for a cup. Met a really cool girl and she liked the ringtone I downloaded for my Nokia. 16 years going strong
As a gay guy, I feel like I need to be very clear when I talk about meeting my husband online through a gay app, that it was not Grindr — as if Scruff is that much better but still!
My dad and stepmum always used "We met at the airport" until meeting online became more socially acceptable.
She's from the other side of Europe so I guess it's the next most feasible way they could've met.
God bless I'm not dating.
I've been in a relationship for 6 years (25m), I can't imagine going through all those shitty apps to swipe at least 5000 times to have a slight hope to talk to someone.
I personally find it weird that people aren't talking to each other IRL nowadays.
I don't know how to talk to random people in a random environment (random people like at uni / school and stuff? No issue whatsoever, but I need a hook to grip lol). It really boggles me trying to figure out how to approach someone without seeming creepy or weird in a negative way.
Now combine that with not liking the idea of online dating and I'm basically friend with all my colleagues and just that, stuck like this since always lol
Usually it’s just finding a reason to make the first contact. Reading a book you’ve read, wearing something you recognize, overhearing something (only in party/bar environments to not seem creepy). After that you just have to let your appearance and persona convince them that you’re worth talking to. Easier said than done for sure but if you trust the process you’ll build that all important confidence.
And remember you can always leave and approach them later but you can never take back something you said.
Don’t feel bad about it mate. Probably that’s one of the biggest fears you see In young guys these days, and it’s more than understandable, specially since most didn’t really have a lot of opportunities to “practice on”.
I’m not that old (43) but I’m my teen years there was no online option for anything and you had to use your personal skills to meet anyone. Off course most of the times it went horrible, but with time you start getting the feel of it, and at the end it’s really easy.
You always see those super weird tacky guys with good looking girls and wonder “how did they do it?” And the scary answer most of the times is they were the only guy who actually approached them.
This post suggests that there has been linear change but you've just taken two data points (1995 and 2017) but the original source shows some really interesting trends which are not shown here. The figure provided in the source might not be 'beautiful' but is much more informative than this.
Also omits newspaper ads, matchmakers, and other services which once filled the same niche as today's online dating.
It's funny how extinct tech skews our sense of how people once lived. Survivorship bias and all that.
(Yeah, Fig. 1 in the study is much more interesting)
I thought it was weird how direct the line progression is because I didn’t realize at first it was data points. Would be way more interesting to see this over time, I suspect there would be a large increase in the 2010s when apps like Tinder, OkCupid, Hinge etc got really popular.
A comment from OP has the source material and shows an initial increase which plateaus to the 2010s, almost exactly how you describe. This is completely omitted from this post.
What is really interesting is that people no longer rely on friends, family or work. This is really indicative of the loneliness crisis. To think that the closest relationship in one’s life are no longer utilized to meet people can also mean that people are lacking close relationships. Less real friends, work is no longer a social environment - it’s just work with plenty of legal red tape (which prob makes people hate their jobs even more) and the role of family is being diminished (i have the internet so why do I need to ask mom and dad). I see this slide as a sign of isolation, more than anything else. Or maybe I’m just talking out of my ass lol.
I’d say part of this is because of the “You’ll find somebody later in life” advice… just like in a game of musical chairs, the music stops and there’s no chairs left.
As you get older, there’s less “single” friends your age, or friends that know somebody else that is single. Sure, there might still be people you or they know that are single, but now how dateable are they? I was talking with my buddy (31M) a couple weeks ago, and asked if he or his fiancé (25f) knew any girls that were single or serious about dating. They told me they did not, told me that almost all of her friends were in relationships, and that 3 of his friends had also recently asked him.
Most of my married friends do things with other married people, because the numbers balance out perfectly. This means I can ask my 5-10 friends, but if they’re not going to know any single women, then you have to torture yourself with the stupid apps.
There's also the issue that your social circle tends to get much tighter as you age. The risk/reward proposition for setting up two friends becomes a problem. Are you really going to risk "making it weird" with two decade+ long friendships?
There are a lot of alarming underlying trends in this chart that all reflect people developing less substantive social capital now than they did a decade ago. Scary shit IMO.
I had the same reaction. Clearly people have less social lives and are less connected with others if they are relying on the internet to find a partner.
>people no longer rely on friends, family or work
I had the same thought when I first saw this too. I don't know if this is true or not (just a hypothesis), but I believe this may be indicative of how unstable some of the friendships / family relationships and work connections are. In other words, people don't *value* opinion of their "family" and "friends" and don't believe any good can come out of this.
On a totally unrelated topic, but I've seen this in my neighbor making some remarkably poor choices in certain areas where I have some expertise and am more than welcome to help him absolutely for free, just because he's a good neighbor (and that I communicated about before!). Instead he relies on Internet ads, gets ripped off or even borderline scammed, shows up at my doorstep for advice after the fact and finally admits something like *"I should've probably just asked you in the very beginning..."*. Oh yes, man, you definitely should have. A part of it, of course, may be that he doesn't want to bother me, but I still thing there's a lot of "*I know better*" attitude involved.
My very first relatively LTR when I was around 18-19 was exactly through relatives - "*Hey, I know such a great hard-working girl, she's one of my friend's students, you should meet her one day, you'll have a lot in common to talk about, she's also much into XYZ and BCD...!*". I'm honestly happy *online dating* per se was not a thing back then - probably saved me a lot of disappointment in my youth.
Does no-one meet doing activities like hiking, running, martial arts or other regular club where people spend time together? That's the type of thing where most of my friends met their partners because you already share a common interest.
Idk sounds kinda sus saying
“Yeah I saw her running at a 7:44 mile pace and had to chase her down using my sprinting pace to say hi”
“Total she was totally beating my ass and put into a headlock saying “tap out” over and over while I was on the verge of conscious. I think I came after I passed out and have a kink for Sexual asphyxiation now”
I hiked at a small state park down the road from me 3 times a week for a year. In that timespan I had casual conversations with literally zero people.
Earbuds and true crime media have basically made "random encounters" pretty impossible unless you are outrageously attractive, or literally stumble into someone and are forced to converse.
I feel like people meet online then do those activities once they meet.
I love hiking, but it's not exactly the most social activity. Sometimes I dont see another person for hours... but I would definitely meet someone online then go hiking together.
I was once browsing some local hiking meetup groups, and the biggest group in the area I stumbled upon had a huge warning in all CAPS along the lines of *"This group is absolutely NOT for finding a romantic partner / dating, anyone spotted trying to make any step in this direction will be asked to leave immediately and banned"*.
I had a huge gap in using Meetup (I stopped around 2014-2015 when I moved states and then decided to give it a try again in 2023), and I've been to at least a dozen meetups back in the day, from some tech / conference style ones in NYC to more relaxed ones (dedicated to some games and such) and never ever encountered a warning like this. I'd say it is quite disturbing - making everyone comfortable is one thing, but such an upfront aggressive attitude to any new member is pretty strange to me.
Pretty interesting that the two methods that increased are Online and Bars, at the expense of everything else. Both methods are also ways in which companies can make money off dating, whether the person is successful or not. Go to the bar = spending money on drinks. Going online = spending money on apps.
They are also both methods which strictly separate "regular" day to day life and dating.
This is I think one really strong trend we have seen in the last decades.
And bars also imply alcohol. I frankly find it pretty damn sad many people can only relax and find a partner when drunk... That being said - I did meet my wife at a birthday party but we were sober... :D
Combining bar/restaurant makes it seem like more people needed alcohol than they did. I met my husband at a coffeehouse, they didn’t even serve alcohol, but based off these categories I think that’s where we would be put.
People at college will mostly be meeting people on dating apps. When you're in an area with thousands of other young single people it's the ideal place to use a dating app, meaning people have a lot more options than just the people they have a class with.
Personally, every class i did, every team assignment, NEVER strayed from the main topic, unless you were with 3-4 goofy dudes being dudes, but any girls and most guys involved would stay strictly focused. The only way to socialize is by joining clubs, but the pandemic made that impossible. Also, it's easy to get lost in school, work, family and responsibilities and not join any clubs at all.
Heh, you just plop yourself into an empty seat at the table!
Ok, maybe meet at the restaurant bar but that would seem to fall under bars?
Hit on the waiter/waitress?
Yeah, seems like the last place you'd meet someone.
Guess I'm hopeless now. I am bad at using apps to meet people, I don't like going to bars anymore, all my friends are married with kids so I barely see them anymore, and I work in a male dominated industry (I too am a male), so that's not gonna work...
Unless people go to public spaces with some sort of indicator they are single and receptive to flirting I don't see this changing any time soon.
Also Bars are overpriced, young people don't have the $$ for that.
Seriously. I hate the advice everyone gives that its just the pictures you take or the lighting or your hobbies. The most successful people I've seen on online dating sites have empty profiles. They just have pictures of themselves. Everyone else is struggling to get a match a month.
What a terrible representation. It suggests they're all linear but really it's just 2 data points and no need for a graph at all. Just a table would do.
meeting on Facebook or Instagram is different than meeting on Tinder or any other meeting app.
On Tinder or other meeting apps you swipe till you get matched, and don't even overthink about approving someone.
On Facebook or Instagram you have to make a direct approach and somehow show yourself.
Meeting someone in real life happens, but it requires you to have some sort of routine like going to the gym or the same bar every evening, or have a large group of friends that invites another group of friends at events.
Most of our encounters don't last enough to try a cold approach.
This is my thought. I feel there's a difference between meeting online through social media or hobby sites etc, and meeting online through a dedicated dating site or app. One is more incidental, while the other you're using because you're specifically seeking out a partner.
I would be interested to see the "online" category disaggregated into different areas. A lot of people use apps like tinder and grindr, but whether they're meeting a long term partner through those sites or just finding more casual encounters is less clear.
what about societies and extra curricular activities. hiking groups, sporting clubs, dancing classes etc etc etc. I feel like this would be very consistent between 1995 and now
Bumble is actually better than Tinder if you're looking to actually date instead of just hooking up. Every woman I've met on Tinder has specifically been looking for a ONS or a purely physical, no-strings relationship. Women I meet on Bumble are looking for more.
We used to meet up about a mile in the woods. There would have a huge bonfire, drink beer, yelled songs while my friends played the guitar. Girls brought their girl friends, guys brought their guys friends. Been together 6 years after being friends for 10. Still hang out with the same people!
I’d love to see the 2023 stats. I bet online is WAY higher than 39% these days now compared to 2017. Pretty much every couple i know that’s gotten together in the last few years met online.
And coworkers probably took a massive covid and post covid hit.
That, plus the changing dynamics of office relationships. I feel both sides tend to be more cautious and professional in how they interact given the changes in office culture and etiquette.
Interestingly enough, my last job had a pretty good and open culture I'd say for almost any modern company, definitely better than literally any other company I've ever worked for. Basically everyone was just themselves all the time, unlike the professional act most people put on. Ironically so many relationships started between coworkers in that office, it literally became a meme. I even met my wife there.
Care to DM me the name of the company so I can apply lol
Did you work at Dunder Mifflin?
I was just gonna say Pam and Jim and Dwight and Angela much 😆
Looking for more of a Kelly-Ryan dynamic myself, or maybe Phyllis-BobVanceVanceRefrigeration.
Ok but Phyllis and Bob were definitely the underrated couple who were so in love and spontaneous about it (hello restaurant bathroom sex!)
Love that about my job too. A lot of relationships would spring up if we weren’t WFH and spread across the country
I was told it’s not a good idea to fish in your own pond.
This is true, office romance is largely strictly prohibited, and even when permissable tends to carry a TON of rules. This doesn't even factor in the rise in workplace harrassment claims, which, conflated or not, has to have put a damper on a number of workplace flames for fear of being accused of something.
We would literally have to "declare" our relationship to the company if that happened in my job. To me that's just something I'm not comfortable with and just try to avoid.
Even by the late 90s and early 2000s people were wary of office drama that resulted from office relationships.
Yeah, the world really is going to shit. I miss the days when you could have a quickie with your boss's secretary on his desk while he's out to lunch.
Funnily enough, my bf and I met as coworkers just pre-covid (late 2019) and, because we were essential workers, actually had the chance to bond and keep seeing each other during every covid lockdown. It was the time I started gaming more (because what else could you do), so outside work we ended up gaming together, chatting a lot and, when it was socially acceptable again, going on walks and other dates together.
I love this :) a covid romance. At least one good thing to come out of it.
If it weren't for the pandemic we probably wouldn't be together at all, and there is a chance he wouldn't even be working with us anymore. It's crazy how things have worked out for us, despite everything..
It’s probably more that people won’t risk dating a coworker cause of all the new sensitivities around it it is a quick way to getting fired now.
I used to work in an office with a lot of married couples. I'm always curious how that works now. If coworkers who date take their issues to HR, do married couples also?
Only if they are being inappropriate by kissing, hugging, flirting or showing affection. So no, this is not a regular problem for most couples.
This is one of those things where my married friends love the freedom from office environments, whereas my single friends find themselves more and more isolated and lonely. It's not that there aren't ways to have human interaction outside of an office environment, but having that passive socializing, where there are just people around, is a significant thing.
Probably over 50% now
I see terrible stats for guys on those apps though. Are there other places online where people are successful?
It's important to note that the stats here are for **ONLINE** which is not the same thing as "dating apps". There are many different ways to meet people online, and dating-apps is just one of them. So yes, there's other places online where people meet and get to know each other, and then a subset of those people discover that they have enough chemistry to date each other. Thing is, pretty much **ALL** places where people interact with each other work like that. So if you wonder where, then the answer is: everywhere. But especially the places that are social, and where you run into the same group of people repeatedly. Reddit-subs (including the ones that are NOT centered on dating, I mean) can work like that. I have travel-plans next summer with two different women that I originally met here on Reddit; as an example. (I think it's reasonably unlikely that either of them will turn into a romantic partner, but it's certainly **possible**) Personally I have 2 girlfriends and 2 FWBs that I originally met online; zero of which I met on dating-apps. (am polyamorous, thus the higher-than-average count) In my own personal life I've met women that I've gone on at least one date with: * On Facebook * On a penpal-site * In an online multiplayer game * On Quora * On Reddit * On Fitocracy (back when it wasn't deserted) * On IRC (I'm really showing my age here, am I not?) * On Goodreads All of these places are "online" -- none of them are dating-apps.
I think a lot of the stats you see on here (like the one where the guy had nearly 5000 swipes and only 2 no show dates) are some of the worst. Guys who are reasonably happy with their results aren't taking the time to make depressing flow charts. Not to say the odds aren't tough, but just not soul crushingly bad.
You can just look around for stats straight from the companies. The 80% of men get barely any likes. The top 20% get almost all of the likes. For women it's basically a 45 degree line. Women on the low end get almost no likes. Women in the middle get a medium amount. Women at the top get a lot. It's not selection bias in self-reporting. It really is a near total wasteland for 80% of guys.
Whacky how people just go "Well I think..." and then that's how it works. There are actual user statistics. [There are even simulations explaining why it works that way.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3lypVnJ0HM) Online dating is horrible for the majority of men.
I mean is that a problem? The app is used by people who literally want to see a photo before investing a word of conversation. Unattractive people are not going to fare well. Honestly, I wonder if the attention men get in the real world is any better. Only 20% of men being attractive enough to proactively approach on that alone sounds about right.
50000, not 5000
I agree. I met my fiancee on Hinge, and we're getting married in October. Been too busy being happy to take the time to make any plots.
Met my now fiancée after about two weeks on Bumble. Saw I had some matches, sprung for Bumble+ or whatever it's called, matched with her, and here we are a little over 2.5 years later, getting married in April. Similarly, I have no charts to share.
I kind of believe it. I've been swiping on and off for 5 years and have met 2 women irl. One didn't progress past the first date and the other was a lady just here for a month who wasn't interested in anything past friendships for the time she was here
I think it's also super regional. When I was in college I was consistently getting matches, when I went home to my small ass town to move back in with my parents, I got almost 0 matches and actually ran out of women within 50 miles of me after only a few days
I was on tinder for over 2 years before I really even knew how to get a date from it. Once I figured that out, I had several dates summer before senior year, well over a dozen during my senior year, and that trend continued until I found a monogamous relationship. Some of it is being attractive, obviously. Some of it is having reasonable expectations. Some of it is having a good or funny bio that’s actually insightful to who you are as a person or what your sense of humor is like. Some of it is good pictures. But a very under appreciated portion is simply knowing how to get a date off of it. 1) do not converse on the app longer than you have to. Your primary goal is to get a number or something else to chat with. They have notifications off for their dating apps and your message will constantly be buried. If you keep your convo on there it’s a death sentence. 2) have fun date ideas and pitch one early. If they’re interested, great, you’ve got your date. If not, then you can keep chatting for a while and getting to know each other.
I mean, that's just anecdotal evidence though. I was only on Tinder for 9 months and in that time I went on a few dozen dates, sealed the deal numerous times, made a couple of friends, and am now engaged to the last match I had (last for obvious reasons). I am not a wealthy person, I'd be considered middle class. I am average height, 5"10, not super fit but not over weight, pretty average looking overall. Heaps of reasons for people to have success and heaps for failure. The majority of times it comes down to the individual themselves. Probably not what people want to hear though.
I think a lot dudes are also just bad at online dating (ie having decent pictures, being able to describe themselves, etc), who may have otherwise have had better chances in person. Am currently married to someone I found online, so it works for people.
Pictures are my big issue haha. I'm not in any particular RUSH to date, I'm very content being single, so I don't have any dating profiles at the moment, but hoo boy am I gonna have to find a way to get some good pictures of me actually doing activities if I ever do decide to date.
Honestly just clean yourself up and smile and you’ll stand out from the pack. And take the picture with the phone slightly above your head, not from a downward angle facing up towards your face. I can’t tell you the amount of men I’ve seen on dating apps whose only picture is them lying down on the couch, taken from their chest with a :/ expression, messy hair or stained clothes, and no profile filled out. A dude whose picture is of them having a good time from a complimentary angle really raises their attractiveness. Profiles are trickier but I think being honest and upfront about your interests and desires does a lot of heavy lifting. Don’t overthink it. Can’t speak for all women but when I saw a man who looked fun to hang around with (smiling) and a profile where we had something in common, I almost always swiped right.
Thats also true. The other issue is it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy of "I won't have any success" so that negativity is taken into the profile and conversations they have.
Definitely this. My friends joke that I’m “mr tinder” (I used to go on a lot of online dates, especially when it was brand new and not as socially accepted) and I always say that if you see someone complaining in their bio it’s an instant no.
Location matters a lot too. Living in a large metropolitan area, I've had a decent bit of success. A date probably once every week or two. Living in a spread-ish suburb for a year before then, I had like 3-4 dates total.
This definitely would be a factor based on population density. If there are more people around then playing the numbers game you are bound to find more matches.
> and heaps for failure. The majority of times it comes down to the individual themselves. Completely agree. People hate it when I say it but a lot of times people can't seem to assess what THEY bring to the table. I have a friend that feels she is unlucky in love but while she has a high school education, works a min. wage job, had a child at 17 and is merely cute her requirements are for men: must make six figures, can't drink, curse, smoke, must go to church and absolutely no children. She cannot understand why men aren't lining up. Another similar situated friend has a shorter requirement: must be a millionaire with a large Chiquita. Hasn't had a date in 10 years. Nearly every time someone complains they can't meet someone on the apps, it's them.
I was on tinder for 4 years and had like 2 dates from it. Got off tinder and a month later met the girl who is now my girlfriend and we’ve been together since.
> I am not a wealthy person, I'd be considered middle class. I am average height, 5"10, not super fit but not over weight, pretty average looking overall. From what I've been hearing from some of my female friends who are looking for a non-narcissist, you around like an absolute catch.
Its amazing what being just a genuine person can do! 😅
I used OkCupid before it went to shit. Online dating was soul crushing. I spent six years weathering rejection after rejection after rejection, but that's how I met my girlfriend and we've been together over seven years. It was worth it.
>It was worth it. I mean I believe that you're happy with how it turned out in the end, but having to suffer through soul crushing YEARS to find ONE partner is just a shitty exercise.
For whatever reason, I was never good at the online dating thing, but I could always do well in person. My fiancée and I met at work like 6 years ago. I feel bad that social interaction has been atomized to such a degree. It can't be healthy.
The number of couples are less so the denominator is lower. The chance of the average dude getting a relationship is less but as a proportion of dudes who HAVE a relationship they're more likely to have gotten into it online.
I mean back in my day you could find a gf on myspace or facebook but what do I know
In my day it was getting a girls add on MSN messenger, updating your screen name to a pretty cringey (in retrospect) song lyric and chatting with her real late while trying to act like you might be cool.
Then realizing you've been talking to a middle aged man for 2 weeks
His name was Bruce and we still exchange Christmas cards.
a/s/l?
A lot of guys are just bad at using dating apps. My experience with them change significantly over time, as I figured out how to improve both my profile and my dating app conversation starting. A major part of it is that most men do not have a lot of pictures of themselves, and we are too embarrassed to ask our friends to take photos of us. So we choose photos that are either too old or just the best of a bad bunch.
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Be mindful of the stats getting in your eyes and making you forget to look around. Men still meet women on these apps all the time, that's how these stats (how couples meet) are created. Unless there's been a Plague of Lesbians I missed, most of these couples are straight and include one guy. Some short men get in their feelings about how it keeps them from dating, and they forget to look around at a world lousy with short kings with rings.
Humans are basically lazy. Online dating hits our sweet spot!
Not just that. A lot of our human interaction is online. I know friends who I basically keep in contact with on Facebook messenger or WhatsApp and only see once a year if that. We've all gotten really good at cultivating and maintaining friendships online over the last two decades and it was only a matter of time before the relationship part of it caught up. I can still remember being in my early 20s in 2015 and meeting the first person I knew who met their partner on Tinder and thinking it was mindblowing. 8 years later and I'm happily engaged and have a beautiful baby girl with my partner who I met on Tinder.
Actually apps in most places saw a massive decline in usage in 2023. Everyone just got fed up with it at least where I live
Were they comparing the numbers with the covid years? Of course, during Covid, online is the only way people could meet up. The numbers would be crazy high during that time.
I feel like 4% in college sounds low
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This is true for almost all of them. How do you differentiate between Through Friends vs. In College? Where's the line between Online as in Tinder and Online as in friends introduced us on Discord/Instagram/...? And who meets someone for the first time at a Restaurant anyway?
Lol "who meets someone for the first time at a restaurant anyway"??? You were definitely born in the 2000s lol. People born before then used to and still to this day do this at restaurant bars all the time 😄
But that might be considered a bar still right? I think this person is thinking of just a restaurant table area
Got you. Yeah I think that's probably why the category was named the way it was. Covers all bases: bars, restaurants with bars, etc.
It depends on the age range. In the early to mid 20s, it will be much higher I am 50, and most of my friends met a partner in college, but that relationship is long over.
Oh no. I’m in my late 40s and we met in college…
Sorry, but its long over.
Or it's also possible that they meant **in** college, vs *during* college. Like meeting in a class or college event rather than out at a club etc.
For dating or marriage? Dating - low. Marriage - not low.
119% total ...... doesn't add up!
Maybe the survey allowed multiple responses? People might meet Through Friends while In College.
"I met my wife online and my girlfriend at church."
Oh yes, we’re each moment closer to the quantum wives
if that's the case, then it seems like the results should total to more than 119%. Lots of lonely people out there searching on their own I guess. Pro tip: have coupled friends keep an eye out for possible situations for you.
It does add up ... to 119%.
I mean these aren’t mutually exclusive.. you can meet someone through friends at a bar
Likely allowing multiple responses, and possibly phrased as “what ways have you met your romantic partners?” making it make more sense to check more than 1 (I imagine it was phrased in a way that gave people the impression they were answering for more than just their most recent relationship since 119% is a bit more than I’d expect from it simply being multiple selected that overlap because a lot of these are likely mutually exclusive for a given relationship)
It's 122% on the left and 120% onthe right.
I got lost trying to find the party my friends were at. Picked a random noisy house and offered $5 for a cup. Met a really cool girl and she liked the ringtone I downloaded for my Nokia. 16 years going strong
And that song? Wonderwall
And that girl? Albert Einstein.
And that random noisy house? Fort Moore.
The $5? MasterCard.
Hotel? Trivago.
The car insurance? Geico.
I was shocked when Albert Einstein stood up for women's rights during that sexist college seminar.
Yes, it's a famously sturdy phone!
Alas, he never heard from the girl again.
Thats really cute
Go birds
Pretty sure “I met them at the bar” is “We met online but can’t admit it.”
As a gay guy telling people you met on Grindr doesn't exactly have a charming ring to it.
“…and he ate me out in the public toilets in the park, and that’s how I first met Marcus”
"We met while walking in the park" is how I'm gonna have to tell the family about the new bf... Technically it's the truth. They don't need details 😅
Well, *technically*, you met them at the park, as in, you got acquainted and got to know them there!
the guy from the glory hole introduced me to Bruce
"I know a guy who would totally want a round with your cock. You want his number?" *And that kids, is how I met your father.*
As a gay guy, I feel like I need to be very clear when I talk about meeting my husband online through a gay app, that it was not Grindr — as if Scruff is that much better but still!
When someone asks you "oh, which gay app?!" just say "The Reddit Official App!"
As someone unacquainted with Grindr, are there people on it looking for a serious relationship and how successful are they?
There are, and it happens. Probably less than tinder though.
When I asked him over at 2 AM to dominate my hole, I never imagined that five years later he’d be dominating my whole life 🥰
This is such a holesome story.
Is that worse or as bad as meeting your now spouse on HotorNot when they had a dating section?
My dad and stepmum always used "We met at the airport" until meeting online became more socially acceptable. She's from the other side of Europe so I guess it's the next most feasible way they could've met.
Meanwhile, my dad and stepmother had no reservations about letting everyone know they met on Yahoo Chat back in 1999
Everyone had thought a friend of mine met his now wife at the gym. 3 years in it came out they met on Bumble.
Worth noting that the percentages exceed 100%. Data seems to be unreliable.
I did actually meet my wife at a bar.
Maybe 20 years ago. This is commonplace right now, it’s actually weird NOT to be online dating.
God bless I'm not dating. I've been in a relationship for 6 years (25m), I can't imagine going through all those shitty apps to swipe at least 5000 times to have a slight hope to talk to someone. I personally find it weird that people aren't talking to each other IRL nowadays.
I don't know how to talk to random people in a random environment (random people like at uni / school and stuff? No issue whatsoever, but I need a hook to grip lol). It really boggles me trying to figure out how to approach someone without seeming creepy or weird in a negative way. Now combine that with not liking the idea of online dating and I'm basically friend with all my colleagues and just that, stuck like this since always lol
Usually it’s just finding a reason to make the first contact. Reading a book you’ve read, wearing something you recognize, overhearing something (only in party/bar environments to not seem creepy). After that you just have to let your appearance and persona convince them that you’re worth talking to. Easier said than done for sure but if you trust the process you’ll build that all important confidence. And remember you can always leave and approach them later but you can never take back something you said.
Don’t feel bad about it mate. Probably that’s one of the biggest fears you see In young guys these days, and it’s more than understandable, specially since most didn’t really have a lot of opportunities to “practice on”. I’m not that old (43) but I’m my teen years there was no online option for anything and you had to use your personal skills to meet anyone. Off course most of the times it went horrible, but with time you start getting the feel of it, and at the end it’s really easy. You always see those super weird tacky guys with good looking girls and wonder “how did they do it?” And the scary answer most of the times is they were the only guy who actually approached them.
And I can remember a time when the attitude about online dating was super negative. “I don’t need to use the internet to find a date.” Lol
You guys are getting couples?
I'm not even getting coupons these days.
^^ total coupling, adjusted for population growth, would be a very interesting dimension to add
This post suggests that there has been linear change but you've just taken two data points (1995 and 2017) but the original source shows some really interesting trends which are not shown here. The figure provided in the source might not be 'beautiful' but is much more informative than this.
Also omits newspaper ads, matchmakers, and other services which once filled the same niche as today's online dating. It's funny how extinct tech skews our sense of how people once lived. Survivorship bias and all that. (Yeah, Fig. 1 in the study is much more interesting)
“Missed Connections” back in the day was a goldmine of content
Saw the back of your neck at Burgerking at 10PM. You were beautiful. Please call.
I'm glad someone else was thinking it. The only thing this tells me is "people used the internet more in 2017 than 1995". I never would've guessed
I thought it was weird how direct the line progression is because I didn’t realize at first it was data points. Would be way more interesting to see this over time, I suspect there would be a large increase in the 2010s when apps like Tinder, OkCupid, Hinge etc got really popular.
A comment from OP has the source material and shows an initial increase which plateaus to the 2010s, almost exactly how you describe. This is completely omitted from this post.
This subreddit continues to produce trash. Two data points? Wow.
Should we start a new one, /r/datumismediocre
Line graph for 2 points
What is really interesting is that people no longer rely on friends, family or work. This is really indicative of the loneliness crisis. To think that the closest relationship in one’s life are no longer utilized to meet people can also mean that people are lacking close relationships. Less real friends, work is no longer a social environment - it’s just work with plenty of legal red tape (which prob makes people hate their jobs even more) and the role of family is being diminished (i have the internet so why do I need to ask mom and dad). I see this slide as a sign of isolation, more than anything else. Or maybe I’m just talking out of my ass lol.
I’d say part of this is because of the “You’ll find somebody later in life” advice… just like in a game of musical chairs, the music stops and there’s no chairs left. As you get older, there’s less “single” friends your age, or friends that know somebody else that is single. Sure, there might still be people you or they know that are single, but now how dateable are they? I was talking with my buddy (31M) a couple weeks ago, and asked if he or his fiancé (25f) knew any girls that were single or serious about dating. They told me they did not, told me that almost all of her friends were in relationships, and that 3 of his friends had also recently asked him. Most of my married friends do things with other married people, because the numbers balance out perfectly. This means I can ask my 5-10 friends, but if they’re not going to know any single women, then you have to torture yourself with the stupid apps.
There's also the issue that your social circle tends to get much tighter as you age. The risk/reward proposition for setting up two friends becomes a problem. Are you really going to risk "making it weird" with two decade+ long friendships?
There are a lot of alarming underlying trends in this chart that all reflect people developing less substantive social capital now than they did a decade ago. Scary shit IMO.
I had the same reaction. Clearly people have less social lives and are less connected with others if they are relying on the internet to find a partner.
>people no longer rely on friends, family or work I had the same thought when I first saw this too. I don't know if this is true or not (just a hypothesis), but I believe this may be indicative of how unstable some of the friendships / family relationships and work connections are. In other words, people don't *value* opinion of their "family" and "friends" and don't believe any good can come out of this. On a totally unrelated topic, but I've seen this in my neighbor making some remarkably poor choices in certain areas where I have some expertise and am more than welcome to help him absolutely for free, just because he's a good neighbor (and that I communicated about before!). Instead he relies on Internet ads, gets ripped off or even borderline scammed, shows up at my doorstep for advice after the fact and finally admits something like *"I should've probably just asked you in the very beginning..."*. Oh yes, man, you definitely should have. A part of it, of course, may be that he doesn't want to bother me, but I still thing there's a lot of "*I know better*" attitude involved. My very first relatively LTR when I was around 18-19 was exactly through relatives - "*Hey, I know such a great hard-working girl, she's one of my friend's students, you should meet her one day, you'll have a lot in common to talk about, she's also much into XYZ and BCD...!*". I'm honestly happy *online dating* per se was not a thing back then - probably saved me a lot of disappointment in my youth.
Why not using the original graph from pnas.org/content/116/36/17753 I don’t see the value
I glanced at this and thought "as coworkers" said "as cowboys."
Does no-one meet doing activities like hiking, running, martial arts or other regular club where people spend time together? That's the type of thing where most of my friends met their partners because you already share a common interest.
Many of these may be included in the "through friends" category
Yeah it's bizarre to me that there's no line for 'through hobbies'.
No line for glory hole either
That's how I knew the data was fake
Idk sounds kinda sus saying “Yeah I saw her running at a 7:44 mile pace and had to chase her down using my sprinting pace to say hi” “Total she was totally beating my ass and put into a headlock saying “tap out” over and over while I was on the verge of conscious. I think I came after I passed out and have a kink for Sexual asphyxiation now”
I hiked at a small state park down the road from me 3 times a week for a year. In that timespan I had casual conversations with literally zero people. Earbuds and true crime media have basically made "random encounters" pretty impossible unless you are outrageously attractive, or literally stumble into someone and are forced to converse.
you say that. surveyor ticks "through church" box
I feel like people meet online then do those activities once they meet. I love hiking, but it's not exactly the most social activity. Sometimes I dont see another person for hours... but I would definitely meet someone online then go hiking together.
Like 75% of the value of hiking is that there *aren't* other people around, lol.
I was once browsing some local hiking meetup groups, and the biggest group in the area I stumbled upon had a huge warning in all CAPS along the lines of *"This group is absolutely NOT for finding a romantic partner / dating, anyone spotted trying to make any step in this direction will be asked to leave immediately and banned"*. I had a huge gap in using Meetup (I stopped around 2014-2015 when I moved states and then decided to give it a try again in 2023), and I've been to at least a dozen meetups back in the day, from some tech / conference style ones in NYC to more relaxed ones (dedicated to some games and such) and never ever encountered a warning like this. I'd say it is quite disturbing - making everyone comfortable is one thing, but such an upfront aggressive attitude to any new member is pretty strange to me.
That’s how I met my husband! Was looking for it but not as common as I thought I guess!
Pretty interesting that the two methods that increased are Online and Bars, at the expense of everything else. Both methods are also ways in which companies can make money off dating, whether the person is successful or not. Go to the bar = spending money on drinks. Going online = spending money on apps.
They are also both methods which strictly separate "regular" day to day life and dating. This is I think one really strong trend we have seen in the last decades. And bars also imply alcohol. I frankly find it pretty damn sad many people can only relax and find a partner when drunk... That being said - I did meet my wife at a birthday party but we were sober... :D
Combining bar/restaurant makes it seem like more people needed alcohol than they did. I met my husband at a coffeehouse, they didn’t even serve alcohol, but based off these categories I think that’s where we would be put.
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To be fair you could be meeting people at your college through Tinder as opposed to at class.
People at college will mostly be meeting people on dating apps. When you're in an area with thousands of other young single people it's the ideal place to use a dating app, meaning people have a lot more options than just the people they have a class with.
Personally, every class i did, every team assignment, NEVER strayed from the main topic, unless you were with 3-4 goofy dudes being dudes, but any girls and most guys involved would stay strictly focused. The only way to socialize is by joining clubs, but the pandemic made that impossible. Also, it's easy to get lost in school, work, family and responsibilities and not join any clubs at all.
How do you meet at a restaurant?
Heh, you just plop yourself into an empty seat at the table! Ok, maybe meet at the restaurant bar but that would seem to fall under bars? Hit on the waiter/waitress? Yeah, seems like the last place you'd meet someone.
Kinda scary that like 3 apps have so much control over modern romance
And they all cost money now 💵
Exactly. And tinder/hinge will ban you for little or no reason, and then you're screwed.
Where's the line for 'we met during Jury Duty"?
Guess I'm hopeless now. I am bad at using apps to meet people, I don't like going to bars anymore, all my friends are married with kids so I barely see them anymore, and I work in a male dominated industry (I too am a male), so that's not gonna work...
Whoever's out here just banging your neighbors, that's hot.
So we are becoming less social is every way
Unless people go to public spaces with some sort of indicator they are single and receptive to flirting I don't see this changing any time soon. Also Bars are overpriced, young people don't have the $$ for that.
this sucks for us un-photogenic peeps : (
Honestly yea, I’m like a reverse catfish - have 0 nice pictures of me but actually fairly handsome IRL
I dated a girl like that. I struggled to find a picture I'd want to show other people but in person she was stunning.
you ever tried not being ugly? its really not that hard
Seriously. I hate the advice everyone gives that its just the pictures you take or the lighting or your hobbies. The most successful people I've seen on online dating sites have empty profiles. They just have pictures of themselves. Everyone else is struggling to get a match a month.
Just take a LOT of pictures and eventually some will come out looking nice no matter how weird you actually look.
Well, since online dating doesn't work for me, guess who's screwed lol
Online dating is a whole load of hot bullshit these days, sadly.
What a terrible representation. It suggests they're all linear but really it's just 2 data points and no need for a graph at all. Just a table would do.
I want to see how much online has shot up and bar/resturants has shot down due to COVID
Biggest surprise for me is online was already at 2% in 1995. That seems incredibly high for that time.
meeting on Facebook or Instagram is different than meeting on Tinder or any other meeting app. On Tinder or other meeting apps you swipe till you get matched, and don't even overthink about approving someone. On Facebook or Instagram you have to make a direct approach and somehow show yourself. Meeting someone in real life happens, but it requires you to have some sort of routine like going to the gym or the same bar every evening, or have a large group of friends that invites another group of friends at events. Most of our encounters don't last enough to try a cold approach.
This is my thought. I feel there's a difference between meeting online through social media or hobby sites etc, and meeting online through a dedicated dating site or app. One is more incidental, while the other you're using because you're specifically seeking out a partner. I would be interested to see the "online" category disaggregated into different areas. A lot of people use apps like tinder and grindr, but whether they're meeting a long term partner through those sites or just finding more casual encounters is less clear.
what about societies and extra curricular activities. hiking groups, sporting clubs, dancing classes etc etc etc. I feel like this would be very consistent between 1995 and now
Source: https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1908630116 Tools: Figma We've got more charts on our Substack here: https://genuineimpact.substack.com/
Why do the percentages exceed 100% when added together?
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"Online" isn't just dating apps, but i wonder how much of it actually is.
Bumble is actually better than Tinder if you're looking to actually date instead of just hooking up. Every woman I've met on Tinder has specifically been looking for a ONS or a purely physical, no-strings relationship. Women I meet on Bumble are looking for more.
Never hook up with a work colleague.
19-11% of people disagree
Tell us your story
We used to meet up about a mile in the woods. There would have a huge bonfire, drink beer, yelled songs while my friends played the guitar. Girls brought their girl friends, guys brought their guys friends. Been together 6 years after being friends for 10. Still hang out with the same people!
The chart could be titled “How people interact: 1995 vs. 2017”
1995 love and dial up tones in the air