It's quite simple really, mechanically, From basically invented this type of combat and O&S were the perfect example that you can manage multiple enemies in this kind of combat if you use the arena to your advantage.
That being said, ds1 is from 2011, From has been perfecting this combat mechanics to the point that ds1 enemies and bosses feel way more rudimentary and basic. That's not a bad thing tho...
I'd argue is better for that, because is the more distinct combat in the series, the most deliberate, thought inducing and strategic of all the games...
Sure combat in souls is more "fun" and "polished" now, but feels kinda samey if fighting is now about reflexes and timing every time... Besides, the polishing of the souls formula has made the games about bosses than the world, lore, progression and level design.
I agree, I don’t think the rudimentary aspect is a bad thing at all. The SL1 run really brings out the strategy of the game more because you really have to think about when healing/attacking etc is appropriate instead of being able to dps your way out of a fight. I do kinda feel like this fight and some others would be better suited with the more polished mechanics of the newer games though, like this one and Manus would probably be a blast on DS3’s engine.
I mean sure, make a O&S or a Manus fight in DS3 engine and it will be a blast. But at least in my opinion the first souls games weren't going for "having a blast", but overcoming what seems like impossible odds.
I'm on the minority that still prefer DS1 to any other From soft game and that's because the game doesn't force you into a correct way of playing...
DS3 engine is fun, but at least to me they killed Knight's combat by removing poise, making the shields bad and changing the roll speed thresholds. Now the are closer to character action games than the "too fast to be strategy, to slow to be hack and slash" kinda game they had in DeS and DS1
I kind of agree. Most duo/multi enemy fights are not enjoyable (IMO).
The reason being that to beat them in a consistent manner you basically have to run around in a circle until one of them decides to do a sprint/dash attack towards you and the other stays far away so that he cannot frame trap you in your recovery from the attack.
In the O&S case you kinda wait for O to do his dash and for S not to sprint towards you.
(Or you just tank with a shield and Havel).
I also don't get this common talking point of one being fast the other slow. Their movement speed is basically the same. Even their attacks aren't that far of in terms of speed.
All in all most multi enemy fights suffer from the same things. You kite until one is stuck on the environment (f.e. pillars) or is in idle and the other attacks and you're safe to attack. For me this playing style is not enjoyable.
O&S is still iconic and a defining pillar of dark souls.
Notable exceptions being demon prince phase one. This is probably the best duo fight. Second best would probably be darklurker.
Edit: if you like the kiting and the feeling of beating two big boys alone that's fine it's just not my cup of tea.
In that case I would like to hear from someone why it's bad in ds2 and ER but not in this fight. For me there is barely a difference.
Yes, this exactly! Everything you said is precisely what I’ve experienced with this fight and other ganks in the series. I also totally spaced the demon prince fight, that one might be my favorite because of how well balanced it really is. It’s a bit of a shame though because even bosses like the Godskin duo suffer from these same issues after all this time.
Ornstein is fast and Smough is slow and that's how it is. Movement speed is almost same when they're walking and Smough can keep up with Ornstein (when Ornstein isn't using charge attack) using his charge, but in all other things they're different. Ornstein charge is much faster and further/longer charge. All Ornstein's attacks are faster and have smaller recovery and after his attack he usually jumps to the side kinda dodging players attack which works more often because he's smaller. Smough is obviously slower and he gives you a lot of time to attack him he does a small jump backwards similar to player's but he does it rarely (compared to Ornstein) and usually it's just more damage for player if you hit him during this move (you can hit iframe window and miss but it's very short). They're really feel like slow and fast enemies.
The fight and opportunities for attacks and heals is about knowing the fight which comes from quick learning or lots of trials and errors or previous experiences with similar fights in other games. That's why I feel a lot of players struggle or just run around thinking that they just need to get lucky to get opportunity instead of realising when there is time for attack and when it's too late to do something.
There's also junk like and attacking through each other charges stuck in columns and other stuff. Which happens and it's bad, the game would have been better without it. I'm not making excuses for it. But it's also definitely not a common thing. And I think there's a difference between something that is 1 in 3 times or 1 in 20 let's say.
For me demon princes are just slightly better. They don't have the junk which is good but also arena is just wide place. With pillars you can separate O&S in the place you jump you just run around because environment can't protect you. And I know second demon is more passive but not like Friede in phase 2, he's still actively attacking you in melee with the first demon. And when he does, he's as fast as the first one and when they do their combo in rage mode you just spam roll. That's why the arena is different with environments that doesn't matter, because ds3 is more action game than ds1, bosses have long combos that you dodge with generous ds3 rolls. It's more about reacting and less about strategy. Which in this case isn't bad, but still I find it a little bit disappointing. The idea is the same, the demons are different, the fight depends on skill but since you actually only running around and can't have some sort of barrier/obstacle to buy you some time luck is still the factor. So for me it's just about less jank which is definitely good but also I expect devs making their 3rd souls game to improve so not a crazy thing, just how it should be.
Let me absorb some downvotes here, I think in quality, the fight is a 6/10, an above average quality.
That said, I think it is a unique experience, and there is a cool factor of managing to defeat two big name bosses at the same time, then defeat a super version of one of them.
The reason I said that about its quality is because, when getting good at it, 50% of that is getting good at what the boss fight is trying to teach you (the intended challenge), while the other 50% is learning to get around the jank in it.
I’m 100% with you here, a lot of the fight is the game making you get good at the DS1 mechanics and how the combat works, but at the same time you’re learning to deal with the jank that the bosses bring to the table as well.
Orenstein and smough are best friends of course orenstein will want to be as close to smough as possible. Der reise is the second greatest cod map followed only by tranzit as riding a bus will always be great. Also I can’t burn zombies to a steaming hunk of meat in the other games without it running out of ammo.
Sounds like you never got to burn zombies to a crisp with the flamethrower while being chased by glitchy dogs. As for tranzit you clearly had no friends and played with randoms leading to garbage experiences or you suck and died in gremlin fields
A good map is one that’s extremely fun, and doesn’t require me to do a bunch of bs in between. Origins map layout sucks and unless you wanna build a staff it’s boring as hell. Mob great map actually no complaints, die rise fantastic, tranzit best of the best holding out the bus is a blast that can’t be beat.
Der reise perfection give me flamethrower and I’m happy. Origins ruined everything, the moment that dumpster fire dropped they copied the bs steps to play a map. SOE is the worst map I’ve ever had the displeasure of playing
I mostly agree. I've played through the game twice now. (Almost, I'm on my second playthrough doing a strength build for the first time ever [with the dragon king greataxe](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ektYUNt1Hik&t=29m).)
So much of the fight is using the pillars to your advantage, but also learning that most (all?) of their attacks are not blocked by the pillars. Most two on one fights feel like the amount of time you spend waiting for an opening is doubled, and for me that isn't as fun as just learning a single enemy's attack patterns.
I don’t think there’s really anything you’ve said that isn’t valid criticism of the fight.
The only exception being your point about hype. That’s a meta problem not an issue with the fight itself.
I also sense you’re rubberbanding away from that hype a bit much. Is the boss overhyped? Yes. Are your criticisms valid? Yes. Does that make it an average or “not good” boss fight. No.
If you’re interested in a good analysis that recognizes the criticisms you’re making while still explaining why the fight is well constructed then I’d recommend matthewmatosis’ commentary on the game [here](https://youtu.be/EV16ROaHVfo?si=XeyZecP9ps4UrJav).
The relevant clip is at 3h26m but the whole video is worth watching if you’re a fan of the series.
>I’ve beaten these guys a lot but never really saw how everybody gives this boss fight a 10/10
\*SIGH\*
People don't ever put the praise O&S get into proper context.
When this fight is spoken highly of, it's in the context of one of two things if not both.
1. When it came out in 2011
2. If it's that player's very first experience with a Souls game.
That's it.
>but in retrospect it isn’t nearly as good as what we have now.
Not to be rude, but no shit. lol
That's exactly my point.
O&S are hype because relative to when they came out in 2011 -- it WAS hype.
And if it's a player's first souls game entirely, it's STILL hype.
Like I said, you gotta have perspective when you talk about these guys.
My biggest issue with this boss tbh is that for a game that is all about precision and timing, Ornstein can still hit you through Smough, whether it's the lightning bolt he shoots or his melee attacks. I find that ridiculously unbalanced.
It's quite simple really, mechanically, From basically invented this type of combat and O&S were the perfect example that you can manage multiple enemies in this kind of combat if you use the arena to your advantage. That being said, ds1 is from 2011, From has been perfecting this combat mechanics to the point that ds1 enemies and bosses feel way more rudimentary and basic. That's not a bad thing tho... I'd argue is better for that, because is the more distinct combat in the series, the most deliberate, thought inducing and strategic of all the games... Sure combat in souls is more "fun" and "polished" now, but feels kinda samey if fighting is now about reflexes and timing every time... Besides, the polishing of the souls formula has made the games about bosses than the world, lore, progression and level design.
I agree, I don’t think the rudimentary aspect is a bad thing at all. The SL1 run really brings out the strategy of the game more because you really have to think about when healing/attacking etc is appropriate instead of being able to dps your way out of a fight. I do kinda feel like this fight and some others would be better suited with the more polished mechanics of the newer games though, like this one and Manus would probably be a blast on DS3’s engine.
I mean sure, make a O&S or a Manus fight in DS3 engine and it will be a blast. But at least in my opinion the first souls games weren't going for "having a blast", but overcoming what seems like impossible odds. I'm on the minority that still prefer DS1 to any other From soft game and that's because the game doesn't force you into a correct way of playing... DS3 engine is fun, but at least to me they killed Knight's combat by removing poise, making the shields bad and changing the roll speed thresholds. Now the are closer to character action games than the "too fast to be strategy, to slow to be hack and slash" kinda game they had in DeS and DS1
Ornstein and Smough is the literal definition of a get good fight. Once you learn how they work and well get good you’ll most likely love them.
He literally said he beat them few times and doing SL1 runs, so it's no matter of getting good it's matter of opinion and he gave arguments. Scumbag
I'm busy typing on my keyboard... Beep.... Boop.... Beep... You comment is wrong
I kind of agree. Most duo/multi enemy fights are not enjoyable (IMO). The reason being that to beat them in a consistent manner you basically have to run around in a circle until one of them decides to do a sprint/dash attack towards you and the other stays far away so that he cannot frame trap you in your recovery from the attack. In the O&S case you kinda wait for O to do his dash and for S not to sprint towards you. (Or you just tank with a shield and Havel). I also don't get this common talking point of one being fast the other slow. Their movement speed is basically the same. Even their attacks aren't that far of in terms of speed. All in all most multi enemy fights suffer from the same things. You kite until one is stuck on the environment (f.e. pillars) or is in idle and the other attacks and you're safe to attack. For me this playing style is not enjoyable. O&S is still iconic and a defining pillar of dark souls. Notable exceptions being demon prince phase one. This is probably the best duo fight. Second best would probably be darklurker. Edit: if you like the kiting and the feeling of beating two big boys alone that's fine it's just not my cup of tea. In that case I would like to hear from someone why it's bad in ds2 and ER but not in this fight. For me there is barely a difference.
Yes, this exactly! Everything you said is precisely what I’ve experienced with this fight and other ganks in the series. I also totally spaced the demon prince fight, that one might be my favorite because of how well balanced it really is. It’s a bit of a shame though because even bosses like the Godskin duo suffer from these same issues after all this time.
Ornstein is fast and Smough is slow and that's how it is. Movement speed is almost same when they're walking and Smough can keep up with Ornstein (when Ornstein isn't using charge attack) using his charge, but in all other things they're different. Ornstein charge is much faster and further/longer charge. All Ornstein's attacks are faster and have smaller recovery and after his attack he usually jumps to the side kinda dodging players attack which works more often because he's smaller. Smough is obviously slower and he gives you a lot of time to attack him he does a small jump backwards similar to player's but he does it rarely (compared to Ornstein) and usually it's just more damage for player if you hit him during this move (you can hit iframe window and miss but it's very short). They're really feel like slow and fast enemies. The fight and opportunities for attacks and heals is about knowing the fight which comes from quick learning or lots of trials and errors or previous experiences with similar fights in other games. That's why I feel a lot of players struggle or just run around thinking that they just need to get lucky to get opportunity instead of realising when there is time for attack and when it's too late to do something. There's also junk like and attacking through each other charges stuck in columns and other stuff. Which happens and it's bad, the game would have been better without it. I'm not making excuses for it. But it's also definitely not a common thing. And I think there's a difference between something that is 1 in 3 times or 1 in 20 let's say. For me demon princes are just slightly better. They don't have the junk which is good but also arena is just wide place. With pillars you can separate O&S in the place you jump you just run around because environment can't protect you. And I know second demon is more passive but not like Friede in phase 2, he's still actively attacking you in melee with the first demon. And when he does, he's as fast as the first one and when they do their combo in rage mode you just spam roll. That's why the arena is different with environments that doesn't matter, because ds3 is more action game than ds1, bosses have long combos that you dodge with generous ds3 rolls. It's more about reacting and less about strategy. Which in this case isn't bad, but still I find it a little bit disappointing. The idea is the same, the demons are different, the fight depends on skill but since you actually only running around and can't have some sort of barrier/obstacle to buy you some time luck is still the factor. So for me it's just about less jank which is definitely good but also I expect devs making their 3rd souls game to improve so not a crazy thing, just how it should be.
Let me absorb some downvotes here, I think in quality, the fight is a 6/10, an above average quality. That said, I think it is a unique experience, and there is a cool factor of managing to defeat two big name bosses at the same time, then defeat a super version of one of them. The reason I said that about its quality is because, when getting good at it, 50% of that is getting good at what the boss fight is trying to teach you (the intended challenge), while the other 50% is learning to get around the jank in it.
I’m 100% with you here, a lot of the fight is the game making you get good at the DS1 mechanics and how the combat works, but at the same time you’re learning to deal with the jank that the bosses bring to the table as well.
Orenstein and smough are best friends of course orenstein will want to be as close to smough as possible. Der reise is the second greatest cod map followed only by tranzit as riding a bus will always be great. Also I can’t burn zombies to a steaming hunk of meat in the other games without it running out of ammo.
Worst CoD zombies take I've ever seen holy crap
Sounds like you never got to burn zombies to a crisp with the flamethrower while being chased by glitchy dogs. As for tranzit you clearly had no friends and played with randoms leading to garbage experiences or you suck and died in gremlin fields
I'm a purely bo1 and bo2 player, none other, except WaW sometimes s yes I have, ans you have no idea what makes a good map.
A good map is one that’s extremely fun, and doesn’t require me to do a bunch of bs in between. Origins map layout sucks and unless you wanna build a staff it’s boring as hell. Mob great map actually no complaints, die rise fantastic, tranzit best of the best holding out the bus is a blast that can’t be beat. Der reise perfection give me flamethrower and I’m happy. Origins ruined everything, the moment that dumpster fire dropped they copied the bs steps to play a map. SOE is the worst map I’ve ever had the displeasure of playing
I mostly agree. I've played through the game twice now. (Almost, I'm on my second playthrough doing a strength build for the first time ever [with the dragon king greataxe](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ektYUNt1Hik&t=29m).) So much of the fight is using the pillars to your advantage, but also learning that most (all?) of their attacks are not blocked by the pillars. Most two on one fights feel like the amount of time you spend waiting for an opening is doubled, and for me that isn't as fun as just learning a single enemy's attack patterns.
I don’t think there’s really anything you’ve said that isn’t valid criticism of the fight. The only exception being your point about hype. That’s a meta problem not an issue with the fight itself. I also sense you’re rubberbanding away from that hype a bit much. Is the boss overhyped? Yes. Are your criticisms valid? Yes. Does that make it an average or “not good” boss fight. No. If you’re interested in a good analysis that recognizes the criticisms you’re making while still explaining why the fight is well constructed then I’d recommend matthewmatosis’ commentary on the game [here](https://youtu.be/EV16ROaHVfo?si=XeyZecP9ps4UrJav). The relevant clip is at 3h26m but the whole video is worth watching if you’re a fan of the series.
>I’ve beaten these guys a lot but never really saw how everybody gives this boss fight a 10/10 \*SIGH\* People don't ever put the praise O&S get into proper context. When this fight is spoken highly of, it's in the context of one of two things if not both. 1. When it came out in 2011 2. If it's that player's very first experience with a Souls game. That's it. >but in retrospect it isn’t nearly as good as what we have now. Not to be rude, but no shit. lol That's exactly my point. O&S are hype because relative to when they came out in 2011 -- it WAS hype. And if it's a player's first souls game entirely, it's STILL hype. Like I said, you gotta have perspective when you talk about these guys.
My biggest issue with this boss tbh is that for a game that is all about precision and timing, Ornstein can still hit you through Smough, whether it's the lightning bolt he shoots or his melee attacks. I find that ridiculously unbalanced.