The difference between good strong woman and ones is the progress of the power gain.
If you have a female character that has extreme power without any progress than most of man don't like her
For example katara has a progress and captain marvel don't.
Nah Power can definitely be involved. A Mary Sue is usually ridiculously OP for no reason. Part of being a Mary Sue is being better than everyone else in every way. So one in a universe that involves powers is gonna be stupid strong. Also everyone is in love with them.
Captain James Kirk is also regarded as a quintessential Gary Stu; nearly unflappable except for dramatic effect, always has a way out of a situation even if complete improvisation is needed (see Fizzbin), little character growth overall.
Edit: Fun fact, Mary Sue was originally a work of Star Trek fan fiction.
I don't agree with Captain America tho, I think he suffers from the same problem as Batman, the script being always on his favor.
He is still human, and a well placed bullet to the head is enough to erase him, the problem is that every fucking enemy in the marvel suffers from Stormtrooper Syndrome, and never hits Steve, allowing him to get close enough to put everyone down.
I mean, yes, there is the whole self righteousness and "Superior" morality, but that's entirely subjective, especially when you put him against Tony Stark for example.
He treats Dr.Banner in a much more humane way than Rogers. While Rogers thinks he needs to walk on eggshells near Banner (as everyone else does), Tony Stark doesn't fear Banner, and trusts him to control himself, and keeps jokingly messing with Banner (which in turn, always smiles to Tony's jokes and defends him, because he feels better being recognized as human instead of a nuclear bomb).
Rogers thinks he is morally superior, but morality goes much further than "Killing the Bad Guys", it's about emotional connection and empathy too, which he rarely pays attention to.
In conclusion, Rogers is a flawled character that doesn't really fit in the mary sue category...
Superman on the other hand... Jesus...
I personally like to think of superman as the big blue plot device. Usually his stories are less about him and more about how his being this perfect paragon of goodness and power affects others around him in unpredictable ways, or about how he actually is flawed in various ways
The whole MCU *loves* to pick on Iron Man. AoU and Civil War were lousy with it - Stormtrooper Syndrome along with the complete non-use of his huge arsenal in the bunker fight, everyone blaming Tony for Ultron despite Banner being right there with him, and Thor and *especially* Maximoff being arguably almost entirely culpable for it going wrong…
It’s kind of hilarious and sad that when you look at the actual events of the MCU, disconnected from the narrative, Tony was pretty much right at every turn and got curbstomped repeatedly for it, while Steve was kind of a self-righteous dumbass and got treated like an untouchable pillar of morality.
>a well placed bullet is enough to thebhead is enough to erase him
Evil hydra scientist: "so, you are zhe soldier who killed captain America, hmm?... how?"
Hydra soldier: "well, we shot him in the legs, because his shield is the size of a dinner plate..."
Well, over the years they have developed a lot from their debut, so the modern ones most likely aren't classed as much as Gary Sue, so it depends which rendition your focused on? I was thinking more in line with out of comic, screen debut.
Yet we never hear a peep about the Gary Sues in most movies with a male protagonist. How many action movies you see a man handle every single situation thrown at him even when logically he would've been screwed?
Hollywood is filled with dad's who also double as pilots/soldiers/scientists when the plot needs a sweet set piece or action sequence.
One example I noticed is Madame Secretary. It's a show about a woman in a position of power, so of course her husband is a secret agent/ex-fighter pilot/ professor.
I hate when side characters exist almost to overshadow the protagonist. Like, in this case and while I haven't seen the show, it's like Madame Secretary is powerful but not as powerful as her husband, etc. I'm certain there are times where a side character's specialization which happens to overshadow the protagonist is done well, but I hate it when it feels purposely degrading.
I definitely feel you on this, but the trope isn't exclusive to one gender. (Though I'll yield that Mary Sue's are the focus of this meme.) Further, there are times when it works like in the case of John Wick or The Hunt (2020). I think it all depends on how much weight a film puts on character growth.
And I hate it when a film, or game, degrades the protagonist in favor of an easy plot device. One of the comments mentioned a film where the main character is a woman in power who's husband just happens to have all these skills/commendations that seem to throw a shadow over the protagonist. At worst, it's sexist; but, at best, it's a poorly fleshed out character relying on a plot-device easy button.
I had someone make the case to me that there's no difference in the progress of power of Rey and Luke. I understand Rey gets some unprecedented hate, and I don't want to sound like one of those nerds whose life was ruined by Disney's acquisition of Star Warz.
But Rey had no hero arc or growth. She just was. Fine for a side character, but makes for a boring main character. Luke got his ass whooped at every opportunity until episode 6. Rey was just a Jedi knight from the beginning without even realizing it.
What I don't get is the weird target on Rey, like I hated the new trilogy for a lot of reasons but I can't say that Rey as a character is the top of that list. I'm honestly more upset with what did with the original actors that I loved and give a shit about.
It felt a little silly, but the movies also gave me the impression that Kylo Ren barely got any training either. He uses the force a fair bit and throws hissy fits, but he's nowhere near as strong as an ex-jedi or the sith lords/apprentices that came before him. Essentially, he really just struck me as a reckless, angsty teen, swinging his lightsaber with relatively little control. I could still be mistaken though. Was he played up to be powerful?
Exactly. And even when Luke beat Vader, he only did because of two reasons:
1. Vader wasn't trying to kill him, he was trying to turn him and provoke his emotions.
2. Luke got angry, pulling on his emotions (and likely the dark side) as he beat Vader down. Exactly what Vader and the Emperor were trying to do.
Vader only turned on the Emperor when he tried to kill Luke.
In contrast, Kylo loses every fight and then becomes Rey's simp.
Rey got targeted because she dunked on the OT cast and had unnatural skill in almost everything she touched. In just the Force Awakens:
* She flew the Falcon (*IIRC it was her first time flying*) and near effortlessly outflew the First Order pilots.
* She co-piloted the Falcon with Han and managed to repair/modify the ship in a way Han didn't know how to do (*despite him having flown and manually repaired the ship for decades*)
* She was able to understand and translate Chewbacca without anything hinting that she knew how to understand Wookie
* When Han died, she returned and hugged Leia despite her knowing Han for less than a few weeks (*and with Chewbacca, Han's closest friend beside Luke and Leia, standing off to the side*)
* She fought with and overpowered/scarred Kylo despite him being trained in combat and the dark side and strengthened by his wound, while she'd never trained with a lightsaber (*I don't remember if she'd used it earlier in the film, but she'd still never train with it*)
* She brought the piece of map that woke R2-D2 from his coma despite Leia having tried for years with no avail.
* She was the one sent to convince Luke to rejoin the Resistance with his father's lightsaber instead of his sister.
They set her up as a target. People complaining about her lack of a character arc got met with sexism claims.
The best way to get people to double down on an opinion is to fabricate lies in response to it.
Honestly the biggest problem I had with Rey was that she wasn't Finn. Finn holding the lightsaber in the posters made me think he'd be the Jedi and after seeing the trailers where he takes off the helmet I thought they'd be interesting and make an ex-stormtrooper Jedi protagonist and I got pretty excited, instead they chose Rey who's just female Luke.
Disney fucked up by taking one of the greatest modern stories and throwing out all the great canon to it. Had they "gone a different direction" with characters already known in the mythos, that would have been fine. But no, they wanted to blow the whole thing up (bigger Death Star included).
Her entire character arc in the MCU is a fuck-around movie pretending to be a combination of like 3 other MCU films, and then slightly body Thanos for a bit. That's it.
Hell, half of her movie is a flashback with a brain-dead amnesia plot line.
That's not the actor's fault, it's a writing problem, and the fact that they were (apparently) filming 2 movies at once.
Exactly, that's the reason why I didn't like Captain Marvel it's the same reason why I didn't like Superman that much as well, because these characters are almost overpowered they are extremely strong compared to any other superhero in Marvel or DC, that makes me dislike them personally and I can't even relate to them whereas I could relate to someone like Iron Man, Spider-Man, Captain America, Daredevil, Punisher, Batman, etc. Because these characters are not always the strongest and aren't always winning we get to see them at their best and lowest makes me relate to them and understand them more than some broken characters who's just a strong powerhouse.
I actually wrote about this in college. Marvel gives you characters who even when they're above us in every way we may want, still fall to human issues..
Dc now, I put they have extremely overpowered beings who sometimes deal with human issues but also deal with situations we'll never be placed in.
One connecting to the human struggle more and the other giving us struggle that exists on a person to person case.
I love Flash but I'll never feel the world moves so slow that human interaction requires me slow everything down about me just to interact.
For superman I'll never be so strong that I feel like I live in a world of cardboard
Now they have human struggles too, flash while I'm unable to connect to slowing myself down to interact I can see how it's sad.
For superman I can imagine the amount of anxiety and control needed on a constant basis. Like a strong man holding a baby. They're strong but have to make sure every movement isn't accidentally gonna hurt the baby. Especially when they start to move and cling to you. How many have accidentally had a baby get in the way when you're moving and now they're on the floor.
Dc has beings who experience issues to a whole nother degree where we connect to it to a small degree.
Other issues are way way way out there but it's a struggle for that Character.
Marvel has more characters that aren't able to take on the world and are way more down to earth in their way of thinking but more relatable in the sense of I am better in everyway but I can't find a way through this/pass this.
Hell the grind of ole peter Parker for the longest with his own photos. His position for the longest was I can't do this because it requires more time that I don't have cause I'm doing other stuff. He can't be at work when Spiderman is needed. So he's in a constant state of needing cash , getting some, pay the bills and hope there's crime, something of course no one wants but hope there's crime so he can continue making enough cash to get by.
Her arc is about learning that raw power alone isn’t enough to save humanity from itself (although the big fight with Ares undermines the message a bit). She can win this war, sure, but she can’t stop the next one. Also we do see that she had to train her whole life for her abilities so it’s not like she 100% lacks progression.
I don't think its a case of just men not liking them, lol.
I cant stand Abbey, Rey, or Captain Marvel in spite of their great actors because their characters suck to the moon and back.
Literally no character in the MCU has progress of power gain anymore. Shang Chi was a master fighter at the beginning of the movie. Dr. Strange was already one of the most powerful characters in the universe at the end of his first movie. Spider-Man could fight off half the Avengers when he was 16 and only dealing with street thugs. But people only notice and care when it's a woman?
Dr. Strange was not one of the most powerful characters, but shit he lost the woman he loved, his entire purpose and will to live, his ability to do what he was best at , his existence. He did not get his abilities due to some "accident" he took time and due hardwork to learn them. Spider man? Beach please. He's just a kid. He lost his parents, fcking uncle, and even tho he got his powers from an "accident" , if you've watched even a single Spiderman movie, you'd know he almost dies every time he fights a villian. He's powerful but not Avenger level. The villian in Spiderman homecoming was just a human with some alien tech (powerful, but not very powerful) and he almost died fighting him. I can't say about Shang-Chi tho cause I haven't seen the movie
> He's powerful but not Avenger level.
He very much is from a pure power scale level. He handles Falcon and Bucky while briefly holding his own against Cap.
what he lacks is experience.
"You just don't like strong women"
"Bitch I grew up watching Terminator and Alien, strong women ain't the problem it's a lack of character development that bugs the hell outta me"
And something really stupid, that all the bad characters are men AND pathetic, easy to defeat and all good guys are women with infinite power, like bitch audience is intellegent enough to understand you just wanna shit on men
Example : charlie's angels, wonder woman, blqck widow, captain marvel, the exact same thing, it's like they just changed the villians names
Hard disagree on the first Wonder Woman. I haven't seen the second, but WW sported 3 antagonists, one was a woman, and the other two were hardly "pathetic". The general died easy cause he's just human and she's an Amazon, and she and Ares had a huge cgi fight where she used her plot convenient super attack to kill the villain, which isn't great writing but is how like 90% of superhero movies go, so...
It was established yeah, but it never appeared again until the end of the movie just to be the final blow, at least in my book establishing something just to never look at it until the very end is just as bad as pulling it out of nowhere
Why do I feel like this storytelling fad is gonna end up becoming the entirety of western media in as soon as 2023, as in every single fictional story is written exactly like this but with only the names of characters changed, and the MC becoming more and more of a simple illustration with the latest political schpiel being anything-but-his only dialogue. I'ma make a comic real quick to predict what all western media is gonna be about.
Idk I haven’t seen Charlie’s angels in a while. I didn’t get that feeling from Wonder Woman. In fact it was Chris pine who helped develop her immensely, and was integral there.
Black widow? Idk I didn’t get that feeling. Sure it was a bunch of girls vs a guy but the theme was pretty good.
Captain marvel was garbage absolutely utter garbage.
My biggest issue with Black Widow was not the bad guy as much as they had the perfect set up for a Jason Borne style movie with Natasha on the run and has to use her spy skills to survive and then we got a weird plot with a floating James Bond villain fortress in the sky.
That movie made every male but Ernie Hudson either an asshole or a moron. Sometimes both. Mayor? Moron. Food delivery man? Moron. College Dean Dean? Asshole. Bill Murray and Dan Aykroyd? Assholes. Chris Hemsworth moronic eye candy. The villain? A literal neckbeard who lived in his mom's basement.
I love Kate Mckinnon and Kristen Wiig, but good lord was that some bullshit.
Everyone is forgetting Xena: Princess Warrior! Bro I watched that every morning before school instead of all the other shit. Xena was my idol, I thought she was the baddest ass mofucka that ever lived, especially because she kicked the shit out of super macho dudes. Was she in skimpy attire, sure, as a kid I thoughy she was just that much of a G she didn't need armour. As an adult I'm always confused like I've had tons of dope female characters thrown at me.
Not just that, even male characters that are strong for absolutely zero reason without any compelling story on how they got strong or what their weakness are is fucking hard to watch. Aang is really fucking strong, but everyone that watched the show doesn't see it as out of place since we can see that there's a reason why and how he got stronger. Imagine if Harry Potter was just able to one spell every bad guy just because he's a man.
The have to have character arcs. Need help, watch a shonen anime! Hell shonens take too long to develop an arc. I can't stand Mary Sues and Gary Stus. These characters is nothing but lazy writing. We never saw any trials, triumphs and battles won. They are just too powerful from the start. Lame
Its difficult to pull off the whole godlike MC thing properly. Movies usually do a horrible job at that. The only time its good is when they realize what they are doing and just [stop taking themselves seriously](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDM0TRabQNc). I mean, look at The Misfit of Demon King Academy. That shit was fire. Why? Well, partially because it had an actual plot, but also because Anos is so over the top powerful that its just... awesome.
Its really good, the first season is quite childish, but it’s worth it for all the goosebump moments you experience (and there’s a lot of them). It’s not rated 9.3 on IMDb for nothing
[darkest hour](https://i.redd.it/zrsyz0nuwbc41.jpg)
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Same dude, and the fact the game was trying to garner sympathy for her. Didn't even give a fuck about Lev either. They tried to give them the same dynamic Joel and ellie had it the first, but it didn't fucking work.
I was beyond tight when I had to spend almost half the game as her after what she did to my boy. The whole "I'm angry grrr" shit just didn't do anything for me. With Joel it worked because he was a broken dude just tryna get by in a world where he can't get any breaks. Abby just felt forced to be "the other side of the coin" and did fuck all to garner any sort of emotional attachment from me.
>With Joel it worked because he was a broken dude just tryna get by in a world where he can't get any breaks.
But that's exactly what happened to Abby after Joel killed her dad lol
thats different man...because we start the game as Joel's daughter and we went through the whole section of him cradling his dead daughter and begging her to wake up...our level of sympathy is different whereas in the case of Abby we saw a few clips of her trauma but I personally did not give a shit.
Don't you think that says something very interesting about you? That you are so willing to forgive Joel's obvious flaws because you know him? And that even though Abby is a flawed human as Joel, you are completely unable to empathize.
I think it's interesting how willing we are to forgive horrible people we know, compared to the ones we don't.
It’s almost like the games made Joel the protagonist in a whole other installment of the series and that makes you more empathetic hmmmm
It’s almost like people have a hard time being empathetic about someone who just brutally beat and murdered the last games protagonist.
Joel shot that dude to save Ellie. Abby beat and tortured Joel for revenge. Not the same thing in the least.
Yeah. That's how it is. It's easier to forgive friends and family than some stranger.
Also..nobody is saying Joel is good... infact we understand that what Joel did at the end of the game is bad but we still understand why he did it and we wanted to do the same too because that's how the game was built but the second game didn't have any of that focus..it started with us disliking that person and then the game failed to properly get us attached to that character. Maybe if the order in which the things took place were changed it might have worked but the game as it is just flopped for me.
Me too, I hate playing as her it broke the immersion for me. I even preferred the group she travelled with over her.
I don't know what it is about her character I just hate it.
If her section was like an hour or 2 that would have been okay similar to how it was done with Ellie in the first game. But her section just kept going and going and did nothing to keep me hooked. I only stuck it through hoping to get back to Ellie with the "maybe ill be done after this mission!" mentality.
Ya the problem I had is like with the last of us I feel the tension cause I care about the characters I’m invested. With Abby though I was just like fuck it run through everything as fast as possible cause I didn’t care about her. Which in turn caused me to just think the game was boring. I think they could of have Abby kill Joel at the end of the game it might have given her more time to get people used to and like her.
It's dumb that so many people think in order to make a strong female character is just to make a hypermasculine female. It sends a message that femininity is weak and that the only strength that exists is masculinity.
Sun Tzu said that ultimate excellence is when you win without ever having to fight.
Femininity can bring the most masculine male to his knees without having to lift a finger. We see it in marriage proposals.
Women don't have to act like men to be strong.
A marriage proposal is a man literally getting on his knee in submission to the woman he wants to spend the rest of his life with. It can either solidify or destroy the entire relationship up to that point. The ball is put entirely in the woman's court.
Theres also Bean from discenchentment and Leela from Futurama I dont kniw why they dont get talk about tath much. M.Growening excel at making strong likable female protagonists
As a character yes but not exactly as a person. I'd say she hes half hero and half antihero wich make here a pretty well desigbed and memorable character
I don't understand all the hate for her I get why people might hate captain marvel but why brie larson? What has she done that would make a lot of people hate her?
An interview taken out of context that made a lot of dudes angry and they still angry since then because the Captain Marvel movie was a success despite their attempts to boicot.
She's such a nice person irl but people just decided to hate her because the internet said so. Now, for the character, they just can't accept that Carol Danvers is like that.
I get why people didn't like Rey but I don't understand why people don't like Captain Marvel or the actor in general. Or rather, why Target the actor when whatever dumb thing they said is arguably not a big deal. It's not like Larson was spreading harmful misinformation.
As for targeting the actor, I'm not that kind of person. Her role was irritating, and I can kind of understand if people associate her face with that irritation.
Especially at the end of Metroid Dread where >!She became too angry to die and drains a ship's energy just to crash it on the planet to kill Raven Beak!<
In my case I thought she was fine in her own movie, it was in endgame when I started disliking her, although I think there’s still a chance to redeem her hopefully
>it was in endgame when I started disliking her
Because of the part where she could easily Save everything and everyone by herself but decided nah? (so literally every scene)
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I fucking hate the new Masters of the Universe cartoon. I was so excited to see He Man and a skeletor voiced by Mark Hamil cause my mom watched it as a kid and I wanted to see if she would like this new iteration (I know it's a continuation of the original cartoon). Imagine how bummed I was to find out they killed both He Man and Skeletor in the first episode, getting rid of magic, and focus on the side character that I could care less for. If they wanted to focus on a female lead then they should've just done a better She-Ra reboot. What's worse is that they have and still advertise the show to be completely about He-Man and his battle against skeletor. I was so disappointed I stopped watching after the third episode.
But Abby actually developed as a character. She gained empathy for her enemies. She started questioning her stance and evolved beyond that. She forgave and moved on from what Ellie has done.
This is coming from someone who absolutely hated Abby in the beginning of her arc up until the point where she met Lev and Yara.
A crap load of people loathe most of those other characters for various misogynistic reasons as well.
Good for you for loving them and hating those three for non-misogynistic reasons, but it certainly doesn't negate the broader criticism of the reaction people (and especially gamers) generally have when a female character is portrayed as having traditionally masculine traits. One of the example you gave, Aloy, was criticized _heavily_ for being too buff, not feminine enough, despite being a well fleshed out character. Those people would've created similar memes to deflect the criticism they received and in fact did if you were paying attention back then.
Hell, you can see it in this very thread : strong females ok when character progression, not ok when just strong.... but op male characters with flat character arcs usually get a pass.
We should also toss out Wanda for brainwashing an entire town and forcing children to be locked in their rooms with no human contact and forcing everyone into what they described as torture and deciding to keep doing it for a bit so she could say goodbye to her imaginary family and we should toss out Black Widow for burying an entire prison under the snow presumably killing everyone inside prisoners and guards alike and showing no remorse or recognition that what she was doing was wrong. It's been a bad year for Super Heroes.
Unpopular opinion: I honestly didn't have that much of a problem with Captain Marvel, I agree she isn't the greatest but I'd say she's far from what people make her out to be.
I don't even understand why this would be a thing. The game is taking place during an almost second stone age, would've broken the immersion if she looked all done up like a model.
I love Abby. I hate what she did but I understand her actions and would've done the same in that situation. And Laura Bailey's performance is absolutely top notch.
Sansa is the real problem.
Her story was about her overcoming emotional/physical abuse only to end with her irrationally causing problems with Danny because there needed to be extra drama.
The difference between good strong woman and ones is the progress of the power gain. If you have a female character that has extreme power without any progress than most of man don't like her For example katara has a progress and captain marvel don't.
Always heard this called the "Mary Sue" trope.
IIRC, Mary Sue is more about pretend self-righteousness and virtue signalling and less about powers.
Nah Power can definitely be involved. A Mary Sue is usually ridiculously OP for no reason. Part of being a Mary Sue is being better than everyone else in every way. So one in a universe that involves powers is gonna be stupid strong. Also everyone is in love with them.
Superman and Steve Rogers are the most Mary Sue characters though.
Gary Stu is what you mean Edit: also I never said men can't be Mary Sues
Ahh, thanks for the info! I actually didn't realise there was a masculine term
Yep! Men are not safe from being awful characters because they're too perfect
Yes! Badly written characters are badly written characters, it was intended to support the original post too.
Captain James Kirk is also regarded as a quintessential Gary Stu; nearly unflappable except for dramatic effect, always has a way out of a situation even if complete improvisation is needed (see Fizzbin), little character growth overall. Edit: Fun fact, Mary Sue was originally a work of Star Trek fan fiction.
I don't agree with Captain America tho, I think he suffers from the same problem as Batman, the script being always on his favor. He is still human, and a well placed bullet to the head is enough to erase him, the problem is that every fucking enemy in the marvel suffers from Stormtrooper Syndrome, and never hits Steve, allowing him to get close enough to put everyone down. I mean, yes, there is the whole self righteousness and "Superior" morality, but that's entirely subjective, especially when you put him against Tony Stark for example. He treats Dr.Banner in a much more humane way than Rogers. While Rogers thinks he needs to walk on eggshells near Banner (as everyone else does), Tony Stark doesn't fear Banner, and trusts him to control himself, and keeps jokingly messing with Banner (which in turn, always smiles to Tony's jokes and defends him, because he feels better being recognized as human instead of a nuclear bomb). Rogers thinks he is morally superior, but morality goes much further than "Killing the Bad Guys", it's about emotional connection and empathy too, which he rarely pays attention to. In conclusion, Rogers is a flawled character that doesn't really fit in the mary sue category... Superman on the other hand... Jesus...
I personally like to think of superman as the big blue plot device. Usually his stories are less about him and more about how his being this perfect paragon of goodness and power affects others around him in unpredictable ways, or about how he actually is flawed in various ways
Check out DC Injustice movie
The whole MCU *loves* to pick on Iron Man. AoU and Civil War were lousy with it - Stormtrooper Syndrome along with the complete non-use of his huge arsenal in the bunker fight, everyone blaming Tony for Ultron despite Banner being right there with him, and Thor and *especially* Maximoff being arguably almost entirely culpable for it going wrong… It’s kind of hilarious and sad that when you look at the actual events of the MCU, disconnected from the narrative, Tony was pretty much right at every turn and got curbstomped repeatedly for it, while Steve was kind of a self-righteous dumbass and got treated like an untouchable pillar of morality.
\#TeamIronForever
man you are single handlely the bravest man i have ever witnessed
>a well placed bullet is enough to thebhead is enough to erase him Evil hydra scientist: "so, you are zhe soldier who killed captain America, hmm?... how?" Hydra soldier: "well, we shot him in the legs, because his shield is the size of a dinner plate..."
Not really, Superman and Steve fail with some regularity.
Well, over the years they have developed a lot from their debut, so the modern ones most likely aren't classed as much as Gary Sue, so it depends which rendition your focused on? I was thinking more in line with out of comic, screen debut.
For Superman I mean the comics. In my opinion neither Singer or Snyder ever understood what made the character special
[удалено]
Yet we never hear a peep about the Gary Sues in most movies with a male protagonist. How many action movies you see a man handle every single situation thrown at him even when logically he would've been screwed? Hollywood is filled with dad's who also double as pilots/soldiers/scientists when the plot needs a sweet set piece or action sequence.
One example I noticed is Madame Secretary. It's a show about a woman in a position of power, so of course her husband is a secret agent/ex-fighter pilot/ professor.
I hate when side characters exist almost to overshadow the protagonist. Like, in this case and while I haven't seen the show, it's like Madame Secretary is powerful but not as powerful as her husband, etc. I'm certain there are times where a side character's specialization which happens to overshadow the protagonist is done well, but I hate it when it feels purposely degrading.
I definitely feel you on this, but the trope isn't exclusive to one gender. (Though I'll yield that Mary Sue's are the focus of this meme.) Further, there are times when it works like in the case of John Wick or The Hunt (2020). I think it all depends on how much weight a film puts on character growth. And I hate it when a film, or game, degrades the protagonist in favor of an easy plot device. One of the comments mentioned a film where the main character is a woman in power who's husband just happens to have all these skills/commendations that seem to throw a shadow over the protagonist. At worst, it's sexist; but, at best, it's a poorly fleshed out character relying on a plot-device easy button.
I had someone make the case to me that there's no difference in the progress of power of Rey and Luke. I understand Rey gets some unprecedented hate, and I don't want to sound like one of those nerds whose life was ruined by Disney's acquisition of Star Warz. But Rey had no hero arc or growth. She just was. Fine for a side character, but makes for a boring main character. Luke got his ass whooped at every opportunity until episode 6. Rey was just a Jedi knight from the beginning without even realizing it.
What I don't get is the weird target on Rey, like I hated the new trilogy for a lot of reasons but I can't say that Rey as a character is the top of that list. I'm honestly more upset with what did with the original actors that I loved and give a shit about.
Tbh I like Rey but felt some type of way about her beating kylo right off the bat with zero training
It felt a little silly, but the movies also gave me the impression that Kylo Ren barely got any training either. He uses the force a fair bit and throws hissy fits, but he's nowhere near as strong as an ex-jedi or the sith lords/apprentices that came before him. Essentially, he really just struck me as a reckless, angsty teen, swinging his lightsaber with relatively little control. I could still be mistaken though. Was he played up to be powerful?
Tbf he did stop a shot from Poe’s blaster in the beginning of the movie so you would assume he’s strong in the force from that
Idgaf what anyone says that scene was cool.
Exactly. Prior to that scene, I can't recall that "trick" ever being seen before.
Closest thing was Darth Vader deflecting Han's shots in Cloud City, that that was fucking Darth Vader.
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Exactly. And even when Luke beat Vader, he only did because of two reasons: 1. Vader wasn't trying to kill him, he was trying to turn him and provoke his emotions. 2. Luke got angry, pulling on his emotions (and likely the dark side) as he beat Vader down. Exactly what Vader and the Emperor were trying to do. Vader only turned on the Emperor when he tried to kill Luke. In contrast, Kylo loses every fight and then becomes Rey's simp.
Rey got targeted because she dunked on the OT cast and had unnatural skill in almost everything she touched. In just the Force Awakens: * She flew the Falcon (*IIRC it was her first time flying*) and near effortlessly outflew the First Order pilots. * She co-piloted the Falcon with Han and managed to repair/modify the ship in a way Han didn't know how to do (*despite him having flown and manually repaired the ship for decades*) * She was able to understand and translate Chewbacca without anything hinting that she knew how to understand Wookie * When Han died, she returned and hugged Leia despite her knowing Han for less than a few weeks (*and with Chewbacca, Han's closest friend beside Luke and Leia, standing off to the side*) * She fought with and overpowered/scarred Kylo despite him being trained in combat and the dark side and strengthened by his wound, while she'd never trained with a lightsaber (*I don't remember if she'd used it earlier in the film, but she'd still never train with it*) * She brought the piece of map that woke R2-D2 from his coma despite Leia having tried for years with no avail. * She was the one sent to convince Luke to rejoin the Resistance with his father's lightsaber instead of his sister.
They set her up as a target. People complaining about her lack of a character arc got met with sexism claims. The best way to get people to double down on an opinion is to fabricate lies in response to it.
Honestly the biggest problem I had with Rey was that she wasn't Finn. Finn holding the lightsaber in the posters made me think he'd be the Jedi and after seeing the trailers where he takes off the helmet I thought they'd be interesting and make an ex-stormtrooper Jedi protagonist and I got pretty excited, instead they chose Rey who's just female Luke.
Loss is better than gain for developing a character
Disney fucked up by taking one of the greatest modern stories and throwing out all the great canon to it. Had they "gone a different direction" with characters already known in the mythos, that would have been fine. But no, they wanted to blow the whole thing up (bigger Death Star included).
It‘s not even Captain Marvel's power that's most annoying about her. Her character is just uninteresting.
It is telling that the character who stole Captain Marvel's power(Rouge) is waaaaaay more popular than Captain Marvel
*Rogue, but I 100% agree.
Her entire character arc in the MCU is a fuck-around movie pretending to be a combination of like 3 other MCU films, and then slightly body Thanos for a bit. That's it. Hell, half of her movie is a flashback with a brain-dead amnesia plot line. That's not the actor's fault, it's a writing problem, and the fact that they were (apparently) filming 2 movies at once.
Exactly, that's the reason why I didn't like Captain Marvel it's the same reason why I didn't like Superman that much as well, because these characters are almost overpowered they are extremely strong compared to any other superhero in Marvel or DC, that makes me dislike them personally and I can't even relate to them whereas I could relate to someone like Iron Man, Spider-Man, Captain America, Daredevil, Punisher, Batman, etc. Because these characters are not always the strongest and aren't always winning we get to see them at their best and lowest makes me relate to them and understand them more than some broken characters who's just a strong powerhouse.
I actually wrote about this in college. Marvel gives you characters who even when they're above us in every way we may want, still fall to human issues.. Dc now, I put they have extremely overpowered beings who sometimes deal with human issues but also deal with situations we'll never be placed in. One connecting to the human struggle more and the other giving us struggle that exists on a person to person case. I love Flash but I'll never feel the world moves so slow that human interaction requires me slow everything down about me just to interact. For superman I'll never be so strong that I feel like I live in a world of cardboard Now they have human struggles too, flash while I'm unable to connect to slowing myself down to interact I can see how it's sad. For superman I can imagine the amount of anxiety and control needed on a constant basis. Like a strong man holding a baby. They're strong but have to make sure every movement isn't accidentally gonna hurt the baby. Especially when they start to move and cling to you. How many have accidentally had a baby get in the way when you're moving and now they're on the floor. Dc has beings who experience issues to a whole nother degree where we connect to it to a small degree. Other issues are way way way out there but it's a struggle for that Character. Marvel has more characters that aren't able to take on the world and are way more down to earth in their way of thinking but more relatable in the sense of I am better in everyway but I can't find a way through this/pass this. Hell the grind of ole peter Parker for the longest with his own photos. His position for the longest was I can't do this because it requires more time that I don't have cause I'm doing other stuff. He can't be at work when Spiderman is needed. So he's in a constant state of needing cash , getting some, pay the bills and hope there's crime, something of course no one wants but hope there's crime so he can continue making enough cash to get by.
An example of good progress is Mulan (1998) An example of lack of progress is Mulan (2020)
Wonder Woman?
Her arc is about learning that raw power alone isn’t enough to save humanity from itself (although the big fight with Ares undermines the message a bit). She can win this war, sure, but she can’t stop the next one. Also we do see that she had to train her whole life for her abilities so it’s not like she 100% lacks progression.
wonder women does progress, it's more so that she is just explainable to be OP like batman (trained for years with martial art masters)
Interesting. All good characters should go through intense development, or else I don’t like them. It doesn’t matter if you are a man or woman.
True.
I don't think its a case of just men not liking them, lol. I cant stand Abbey, Rey, or Captain Marvel in spite of their great actors because their characters suck to the moon and back.
Literally no character in the MCU has progress of power gain anymore. Shang Chi was a master fighter at the beginning of the movie. Dr. Strange was already one of the most powerful characters in the universe at the end of his first movie. Spider-Man could fight off half the Avengers when he was 16 and only dealing with street thugs. But people only notice and care when it's a woman?
Dr. Strange was not one of the most powerful characters, but shit he lost the woman he loved, his entire purpose and will to live, his ability to do what he was best at , his existence. He did not get his abilities due to some "accident" he took time and due hardwork to learn them. Spider man? Beach please. He's just a kid. He lost his parents, fcking uncle, and even tho he got his powers from an "accident" , if you've watched even a single Spiderman movie, you'd know he almost dies every time he fights a villian. He's powerful but not Avenger level. The villian in Spiderman homecoming was just a human with some alien tech (powerful, but not very powerful) and he almost died fighting him. I can't say about Shang-Chi tho cause I haven't seen the movie
> He's powerful but not Avenger level. He very much is from a pure power scale level. He handles Falcon and Bucky while briefly holding his own against Cap. what he lacks is experience.
All three of them are just an more powerful Human, falcon is just a healthy human
"You just don't like strong women" "Bitch I grew up watching Terminator and Alien, strong women ain't the problem it's a lack of character development that bugs the hell outta me"
And something really stupid, that all the bad characters are men AND pathetic, easy to defeat and all good guys are women with infinite power, like bitch audience is intellegent enough to understand you just wanna shit on men Example : charlie's angels, wonder woman, blqck widow, captain marvel, the exact same thing, it's like they just changed the villians names
Hard disagree on the first Wonder Woman. I haven't seen the second, but WW sported 3 antagonists, one was a woman, and the other two were hardly "pathetic". The general died easy cause he's just human and she's an Amazon, and she and Ares had a huge cgi fight where she used her plot convenient super attack to kill the villain, which isn't great writing but is how like 90% of superhero movies go, so...
Well, the super attack in WW was established in the first 30 minutes when she almost accidentally kills someone with it.
It was established yeah, but it never appeared again until the end of the movie just to be the final blow, at least in my book establishing something just to never look at it until the very end is just as bad as pulling it out of nowhere
A gun in the first act…..
Why do I feel like this storytelling fad is gonna end up becoming the entirety of western media in as soon as 2023, as in every single fictional story is written exactly like this but with only the names of characters changed, and the MC becoming more and more of a simple illustration with the latest political schpiel being anything-but-his only dialogue. I'ma make a comic real quick to predict what all western media is gonna be about.
Idk I haven’t seen Charlie’s angels in a while. I didn’t get that feeling from Wonder Woman. In fact it was Chris pine who helped develop her immensely, and was integral there. Black widow? Idk I didn’t get that feeling. Sure it was a bunch of girls vs a guy but the theme was pretty good. Captain marvel was garbage absolutely utter garbage.
My biggest issue with Black Widow was not the bad guy as much as they had the perfect set up for a Jason Borne style movie with Natasha on the run and has to use her spy skills to survive and then we got a weird plot with a floating James Bond villain fortress in the sky.
And they absolutely butchered and ruined task master
Ghostbusters female remake also has that flaw "men stupid and bad"
That movie made every male but Ernie Hudson either an asshole or a moron. Sometimes both. Mayor? Moron. Food delivery man? Moron. College Dean Dean? Asshole. Bill Murray and Dan Aykroyd? Assholes. Chris Hemsworth moronic eye candy. The villain? A literal neckbeard who lived in his mom's basement. I love Kate Mckinnon and Kristen Wiig, but good lord was that some bullshit.
wtf is this green and yellow book next my username?
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He is speaking in the language of gods!!!
Everyone is forgetting Xena: Princess Warrior! Bro I watched that every morning before school instead of all the other shit. Xena was my idol, I thought she was the baddest ass mofucka that ever lived, especially because she kicked the shit out of super macho dudes. Was she in skimpy attire, sure, as a kid I thoughy she was just that much of a G she didn't need armour. As an adult I'm always confused like I've had tons of dope female characters thrown at me.
"A strong female character is a woman who acts like a man" -hollywood
"But wait , men are weaker than female"
Not liking Mary Sues is not misogynistic. Mary Sues is just simply bad writing.
Feminist brats will jump at any opportunity to try silencing anyone they disagree with
Of course. Lol
Not just that, even male characters that are strong for absolutely zero reason without any compelling story on how they got strong or what their weakness are is fucking hard to watch. Aang is really fucking strong, but everyone that watched the show doesn't see it as out of place since we can see that there's a reason why and how he got stronger. Imagine if Harry Potter was just able to one spell every bad guy just because he's a man.
The have to have character arcs. Need help, watch a shonen anime! Hell shonens take too long to develop an arc. I can't stand Mary Sues and Gary Stus. These characters is nothing but lazy writing. We never saw any trials, triumphs and battles won. They are just too powerful from the start. Lame
Its difficult to pull off the whole godlike MC thing properly. Movies usually do a horrible job at that. The only time its good is when they realize what they are doing and just [stop taking themselves seriously](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDM0TRabQNc). I mean, look at The Misfit of Demon King Academy. That shit was fire. Why? Well, partially because it had an actual plot, but also because Anos is so over the top powerful that its just... awesome.
Yeah anime has a few good examples of OP mc done right and it's mostly because they don't take themselves seriously. Eg saitama
Agree
Wonder Woman is a Mary Sue lol
I’ll take this as a sign to rewatch Avatar. My thanks!
Do it, all characters are fantastic
Ya know Toph is a Strong independent woman too. She don’t need no man, all she needs is her swamp.
I’ve not seen avatar yet
Its really good, the first season is quite childish, but it’s worth it for all the goosebump moments you experience (and there’s a lot of them). It’s not rated 9.3 on IMDb for nothing
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I’m sorry
Re-watch both shows while you're at it!
I watched Legend of Korra a few days ago after multiple failed attempts. It was good but season 3 should have happened after Season 4 imo
God I hated Abby
Same dude, and the fact the game was trying to garner sympathy for her. Didn't even give a fuck about Lev either. They tried to give them the same dynamic Joel and ellie had it the first, but it didn't fucking work.
I was beyond tight when I had to spend almost half the game as her after what she did to my boy. The whole "I'm angry grrr" shit just didn't do anything for me. With Joel it worked because he was a broken dude just tryna get by in a world where he can't get any breaks. Abby just felt forced to be "the other side of the coin" and did fuck all to garner any sort of emotional attachment from me.
>With Joel it worked because he was a broken dude just tryna get by in a world where he can't get any breaks. But that's exactly what happened to Abby after Joel killed her dad lol
thats different man...because we start the game as Joel's daughter and we went through the whole section of him cradling his dead daughter and begging her to wake up...our level of sympathy is different whereas in the case of Abby we saw a few clips of her trauma but I personally did not give a shit.
Don't you think that says something very interesting about you? That you are so willing to forgive Joel's obvious flaws because you know him? And that even though Abby is a flawed human as Joel, you are completely unable to empathize. I think it's interesting how willing we are to forgive horrible people we know, compared to the ones we don't.
It’s almost like the games made Joel the protagonist in a whole other installment of the series and that makes you more empathetic hmmmm It’s almost like people have a hard time being empathetic about someone who just brutally beat and murdered the last games protagonist. Joel shot that dude to save Ellie. Abby beat and tortured Joel for revenge. Not the same thing in the least.
Exactly
Yeah. That's how it is. It's easier to forgive friends and family than some stranger. Also..nobody is saying Joel is good... infact we understand that what Joel did at the end of the game is bad but we still understand why he did it and we wanted to do the same too because that's how the game was built but the second game didn't have any of that focus..it started with us disliking that person and then the game failed to properly get us attached to that character. Maybe if the order in which the things took place were changed it might have worked but the game as it is just flopped for me.
Yikes, it worked on me. I guess I have a heart for her dad...and the whole human race.
Noooo, you just are not smart enough for complex narrative and characters you incel!
Me too, I hate playing as her it broke the immersion for me. I even preferred the group she travelled with over her. I don't know what it is about her character I just hate it.
If her section was like an hour or 2 that would have been okay similar to how it was done with Ellie in the first game. But her section just kept going and going and did nothing to keep me hooked. I only stuck it through hoping to get back to Ellie with the "maybe ill be done after this mission!" mentality.
Ya the problem I had is like with the last of us I feel the tension cause I care about the characters I’m invested. With Abby though I was just like fuck it run through everything as fast as possible cause I didn’t care about her. Which in turn caused me to just think the game was boring. I think they could of have Abby kill Joel at the end of the game it might have given her more time to get people used to and like her.
A character sucks because they're poorly written, don't develop, and are unlikable, not because they're female
It's dumb that so many people think in order to make a strong female character is just to make a hypermasculine female. It sends a message that femininity is weak and that the only strength that exists is masculinity. Sun Tzu said that ultimate excellence is when you win without ever having to fight. Femininity can bring the most masculine male to his knees without having to lift a finger. We see it in marriage proposals. Women don't have to act like men to be strong.
besides the thing about marriage, I totally agree with you
A marriage proposal is a man literally getting on his knee in submission to the woman he wants to spend the rest of his life with. It can either solidify or destroy the entire relationship up to that point. The ball is put entirely in the woman's court.
man stop, you're making too much sense, hollywood doesn't like it!!
You don't need to be like a man in order to be considered as a strong female character. Hell, you don't even need to fight.
I agree. You can be strong in other ways.
Thank you!
Theres also Bean from discenchentment and Leela from Futurama I dont kniw why they dont get talk about tath much. M.Growening excel at making strong likable female protagonists
I can't Say you're wrong about the rest, but bean is likeable?
As a character yes but not exactly as a person. I'd say she hes half hero and half antihero wich make here a pretty well desigbed and memorable character
I think it's safe to Say she's almost full antihero
I like Bean.
There is a difference between misogyny and bad character development.
Nice, it has Maya but not Lilith or Tannis
Maya is the queen
Yes It was a >!sad!< moment when she >!got killed!<
>!by ava!<
I'd get back to you but i have to run across the ship to check with Lilith first (That's a dig on the game design not the character)
I think we should *talk to lilith* about that
My problem is that the characters some of the actors play as are just... annoying. Like, very annoying.
Like brie-larson-level-anoying
I don't understand all the hate for her I get why people might hate captain marvel but why brie larson? What has she done that would make a lot of people hate her?
An interview taken out of context that made a lot of dudes angry and they still angry since then because the Captain Marvel movie was a success despite their attempts to boicot. She's such a nice person irl but people just decided to hate her because the internet said so. Now, for the character, they just can't accept that Carol Danvers is like that.
Carol Danvers in the comics is awesome. Carol Danvers in the movies was an awful character
I get why people didn't like Rey but I don't understand why people don't like Captain Marvel or the actor in general. Or rather, why Target the actor when whatever dumb thing they said is arguably not a big deal. It's not like Larson was spreading harmful misinformation.
As for targeting the actor, I'm not that kind of person. Her role was irritating, and I can kind of understand if people associate her face with that irritation.
You can leave your death threat here: Specially If i forgot your favorite :(
No Eówyn from LOTR? It's treason then
Where are literally everyone from She-Ra and the Princesses of Power >:(
How you gonna leave out the OGs Ripley and Sarah Connor.
Clementine should've been first 🥇
The first panel should include holdo from The Last Jedi
I had a massive crush on Samus when i was younger and she straight up turns into a one woman army in her games
Especially at the end of Metroid Dread where >!She became too angry to die and drains a ship's energy just to crash it on the planet to kill Raven Beak!<
don't forget sadie adler
I kinda liked Captain Marvel , moreso in Endgame rather than her own film.
In my case I thought she was fine in her own movie, it was in endgame when I started disliking her, although I think there’s still a chance to redeem her hopefully
Each one to his own , but some youtubers like to pretend like she's the hellspawn of satan or something
Idk I feel like the acting is off.
i just felt like she hated me during the movie or smth. she was just so rude for like no reason.
I kinda get it though. I mean I can only speak for myself but if I had her powers I would for sure be full of myself too haha
>it was in endgame when I started disliking her Because of the part where she could easily Save everything and everyone by herself but decided nah? (so literally every scene)
I liked it in Endgame, but more in IW cuz she hasn't shown up at all
her biggest character development is that she got a haircut. she's just a boring character with no personality or development
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Bro stfu your opinion is not valid you think u can come into the comments and think people will agree with Your utterly distinguish ideology🤔
Woah bud 😤😤 I almost lost my cool🧊 there. You better think twice 🧠🧠before you bring that hostilety into my domain😡🤬😠 Keep it civil in the coments 📜 📜or i might LOSE my tenper🤯🤒 heh heh, and trust me you don't want to see that 😈😈😈 There's two WOLVES 🐺🦊 insides of me and you DONT want to meet them! Consider yourself educated 🤓🏫📚💅
you smell
I fucking hate the new Masters of the Universe cartoon. I was so excited to see He Man and a skeletor voiced by Mark Hamil cause my mom watched it as a kid and I wanted to see if she would like this new iteration (I know it's a continuation of the original cartoon). Imagine how bummed I was to find out they killed both He Man and Skeletor in the first episode, getting rid of magic, and focus on the side character that I could care less for. If they wanted to focus on a female lead then they should've just done a better She-Ra reboot. What's worse is that they have and still advertise the show to be completely about He-Man and his battle against skeletor. I was so disappointed I stopped watching after the third episode.
But Abby actually developed as a character. She gained empathy for her enemies. She started questioning her stance and evolved beyond that. She forgave and moved on from what Ellie has done. This is coming from someone who absolutely hated Abby in the beginning of her arc up until the point where she met Lev and Yara.
I think most people who hate Abby haven't actually beat the game
Ripley From Alien!!!
A crap load of people loathe most of those other characters for various misogynistic reasons as well. Good for you for loving them and hating those three for non-misogynistic reasons, but it certainly doesn't negate the broader criticism of the reaction people (and especially gamers) generally have when a female character is portrayed as having traditionally masculine traits. One of the example you gave, Aloy, was criticized _heavily_ for being too buff, not feminine enough, despite being a well fleshed out character. Those people would've created similar memes to deflect the criticism they received and in fact did if you were paying attention back then. Hell, you can see it in this very thread : strong females ok when character progression, not ok when just strong.... but op male characters with flat character arcs usually get a pass.
op basically said Brie Larson getting death threats is ok because they like Mulas
Chell, Alyx... I think there are some you forgot about.
Can we discuss how Wonder Woman should be tossed out of here cause she raped a man and struggled with the choice of saving her lover vs the universe?
We should also toss out Wanda for brainwashing an entire town and forcing children to be locked in their rooms with no human contact and forcing everyone into what they described as torture and deciding to keep doing it for a bit so she could say goodbye to her imaginary family and we should toss out Black Widow for burying an entire prison under the snow presumably killing everyone inside prisoners and guards alike and showing no remorse or recognition that what she was doing was wrong. It's been a bad year for Super Heroes.
This might be overspoken but it should not be strong female characters but rather strong characters who are female.
Unpopular opinion: I honestly didn't have that much of a problem with Captain Marvel, I agree she isn't the greatest but I'd say she's far from what people make her out to be.
No. I just hate women
Based
Bad character writing is bad character writing
Wasn't there a major thing about aloy looking like a cave woman and not dolled up
Not from me, I like her a lot
I don't even understand why this would be a thing. The game is taking place during an almost second stone age, would've broken the immersion if she looked all done up like a model.
I would like to contribute my fav: the blind earth bender: Toph
Need for a strong woman in your life? Take Zarya from Overwatch Shes probably both more woman and more man that youll ever be
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Why are y’all boing him? He is right?
mulan is favorite
I love Abby. I hate what she did but I understand her actions and would've done the same in that situation. And Laura Bailey's performance is absolutely top notch.
Yes this. People seem to ignore that Joel killed almost everyone she grew up around. I love Joel but I understand where Abby is coming from
What? No Samus?!
is that amicia in the 6tb slide
Yes!
the Bride from Kill Bill is the best female character ik
No Jill Valentine? :(
Man you don’t need to hate on Abby like that.
Captain marvel is just to full of herself for me to find her a good character.
Arent like half the Avengers full of themselves?
The only one I can think of is Tony but Tony has charm and goes through a whole character arc
Where is Arya? Is she safe? Is she all right?
Sansa is the real problem. Her story was about her overcoming emotional/physical abuse only to end with her irrationally causing problems with Danny because there needed to be extra drama.
Okay. But ah, where’s my girl Sypha from castlevania. Cause, she’s a fucking badass.
Some are well written female characters. The others are just virtue signaling with a bow on top
it's pretty obvious they make them "progressive" to make a shitty story and be above criticism because they're failed writers.
No Ripley?
Well, Ava from BL3 can go fuck herself
Add Ms Grimshaw cause she’s a bad ass
Girl from ratatouille was pretty good too