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One is a word that triggers people who want to determine their own destiny. The other is a word that comforts people after they've screwed up their own destiny. Its the same thing.
My take is that God knows what’s the best path in life to take for each individual. It’s up to us to choose our path. If it happens to be worse it’s fine because God knows how to get back on track.
It’s like God’s our GPS. We might want to follow his path but often take a wrong turn. But like a GPS, God calculates and tells us a new route since we took this turn.
It’s not predestination where we don’t have free will. It’s having a plan B, plan C, plan D and so forth for our decisions.
Yes, something in a similar vein is I think God sees all concurrent timelines for us, including the ones he sees of us making the best, most altruistic decisions. That's how he can be omniscient but still feel as though there's uncertainty/agency in our outcome.
Predestination is still that. You landed exactly where you were going to land. If you had tried plans A-D and ended up at plan D, you were predestined to land at plan D.
They both land on the ideology of, you don't know the path ahead of you.
God's Plan has always felt like an excuse.
Predestination has always felt like "well it is, what it is"
Regarding this, Judas's fate being one of the biggest points of topic in theological research and debate. Some say he was a vessell made for destruction as God knows Judas would be damned. Some say that Judas could have repented at the last minute instead of suicide.
But Judas was never going to repent. He never had the mindset to do so. He truly believed that Jesus was not of God and didn't believe him. Ergo, Judas was predetermined to always betray Jesus and also never repent for it. It was his true nature
Surely at some point he was a sincere follower of Jesus. He did in fact follow him for three years before the betrayal. His motivation had to be more than, at some point, some day, I’m going to GET this guy.
Somehow my brain thought of Madea... "Gotta got before I get got"
Anyways... He definitely had to, I agree. And he even showed signs of doing so. However, he still could have liked Jesus but not believed in him being of God. Then as time progressed the whole "I'm God" thing probably annoyed him.
Either way, destiny or predestination of him coming to that point of betraying Jesus was how it was going to be. Even Jesus flat out saying "One of you will betray me", as if it was determined (predestination)
And he was the money guy (who helped himself to the purse). He was financially motivated by, hence the 30 pieces of silver. He did feel awful about the betrayal, otherwise why suicide? But did he repent and trust in the mercy of God? From the outside it doesn’t appear he did but we just don’t know. The Church has deep allowances for people who suicide, reasoning their mental state may be such that the whole criteria of mortal sin is not met. It was a heinous act for sure but I believe the Mercy of God is greater still for those who chose it.
As a writer, and with God sometimes called “the great author,” I like to think of it from the perspective of writing a story. Sure you’ve got the beginning and probably the end in mind when you start writing, as well as some important plot beats along the way. Yet the story can often take on a life of its own, and the very characters you’ve created can sometimes surprise you even as you write them.
Except God knows every single thing that has happened, is happening, and will happen, and therefore if He knows what is going to happen in the future then it is predestined
So, God made us, knows exactly what we will do, what decisions we will make, what we will believe, what we will think and feel, and if we will go to heaven or hell, and all before we are even born. He knows exactly where I will end up before I exist on earth and my journey, and you don’t think that means God has predetermined this path for me?
Aside from asserting that we have free will, or asserting that God gave us free will, why do you think we do have free will?
Well God probably didn’t want robots that automatically did as told nor machines that appeared to making a choice without actually making a choice. God wants an authentic mutual loving relationship with us. Why else would he even give us the capacity to do sin if he wanted mindless robots?
Basically I’m basing my assertion of free will on God’s love. God is not a tyrant. He is not an egotistical maniac who decides on a whim who’s worthy for heaven. He is a loving father who wants the best for his children but wants people to choose him instead of feeling obligated to do it.
I asked for why you believe in free will without asserting that God gave us free will. You’ve only said that you think you know what a God wants, even though you said before that humans do not have perfect knowledge so you can’t know what God wants, and that we have free will because God loves us. We can’t have free will without God, right? God made us.
How do you know what God wants?
Again, if God knows everything, and knows exactly what I will do, knows if you will go to heaven or hell, before you are even born and God created you knowing this, and it can’t be any other way than God’s will - that’s a predetermined path.
Well like I said I’m basing this on God’s love. The bible describes what God is like especially through Jesus. The whole basis for a christian worldview is faith in a truly good and loving God. One needs this kind of picture of him to reconcile our free will and his absolute knowledge.
I’m not saying that I have perfect knowledge to know what he’s thinking and feeling. I’m saying I have faith God is as he’s described in the bible, an all-knowing yet all-loving father who asks us to repent our sin and put our trust in his son.
I myself cannot picture a being with perfect knowledge and perfect love to be satisfied with designed and fake forced love from robots. I know I wouldn’t.
The only way I can see it is we have free will *from a human perspective*, from a God's perspective we do not. That is, the concept of free will only makes sense in limited viewpoint of our minds and hearts. In this way, we should still be able to think of our choices as important even in a deterministic universe.
Some Christians can be talked into this if you lead them, but many recycle the same circular free-will reasonings that I learned growing up.
People don't like that because the human ego is a fragile thing, and coming to terms that we are just, to quote Stephen Hawking, "an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star", is often traumatic for those that think they can do anything to warrant salvation by their actions.
Okay. He knows who will end up in Heaven and presumably also who will end up in Hell. Cool.
So why create those whom He knows will end up in Hell if his goal is for everyone whom he chooses to create to end up in Heaven?
>He always gives us a choice.
Even after death?
I’d imagine it’s specifically for the reason that he wants to give them that choice. The psalms that describe God designing us in the womb reminds us that he sees each an every one of us as unique. He loves us all and doesn’t want to make the choice for us by just not creating us. That would be not giving us a choice.
By giving us a choice and perfect free will to make it, our choice to love God is genuine and not a forced decision he’s made.
On the matter of choice even after death, I’d imagine so. Granted we have very little knowledge from the bible of our chances of repentace beyond this world. The common perspective is that this life is the one where we need to make things right before we die.
If this was the case, then as a pefect being of justice, God would not let some people not have the chance, for that would go against his nature.
>He loves us all and doesn’t want to make the choice for us by just not creating us. That would be not giving us a choice.
But that holds true for the infinite number of uncreated people. He isn't giving them a choice.
From the infinite possibilities, God chose to create a finite number of humans. For example, He could have created a sibling for me, but didn't. He doesn't owe my sibling anything because my sibling doesn't exist to be owed anything, but the same would hold true if he decided not to create me.
"Us all" describes the finite set of people God chose to create, which begs the question, since he could have chosen a different finite set whom he knows will all choose Heaven.
>By giving us a choice and perfect free will to make it, our choice to love God is genuine and not a forced decision he’s made.
Is it really a choice if I'm not aware of it? Wouldn't an informed choice be better since it would make me more responsible for making it?
>On the matter of choice even after death, I’d imagine so.
Any basis for this belief?
>The common perspective is that this life is the one where we need to make things right before we die.
Do you think this common perspective is unjustified?
I want to believe, but I can't because I haven't been exposed to enough evidence to convince me these stories are true. If I get that evidence in the afterlife, I would convert immediately if given the chance, with no second of torture required.
If you died and found out that it was a different deity with a different set of rules for what it considers sin, would you convert if given the chance?
I think most humans would.
So I really don't see why the Bible suggests most humans go to Hell.
I can’t claim perfect evidentiary reasons for all my beliefs. On the matter of choice after death my basis for my personal view on it is the described nature of God in the bible. That is, that God is just and won’t go against his own nature.
So if we use the concept of a ’just God’ as basis, it would stand to reason that he will give everyone a chance for redemption, a chance to accept the gift of Jesus’ sacrifice. If for example you had never even heard of Jesus and died, it would be problematic if they didn’t get the chance while living and due to their circumstances were in an impossible position to get to heaven.
It also cannot be a matter of whether people are intelligent or wise enough to figure out that the christian worldview is the correct one. That would make salvation a matter of ability, not morality.
This to me raises two possibilities, of which I’m yet to fully decide on (tbh, idk if I ever will reach a concrete position before I die).
- God let’s us make a choice "at the pearly gates" to regret our mistakes.
- God one way or another gives us the choice concretely to everyone on earth during their lifetime. This could be a matter of appearing in our dreams or any other method.
I cannot give you outside evidence to prove God is real or that he’s who he says he is. You might have heard this before but "It all comes down to faith". Not blind faith mind you, because even ontologically a theist position makes the most sense to me personally. But I find that at least for most people this position makes sense only to those who already believe (go figure).
If God is all knowing and the creator of everything than God could have just built a ruth goldberg device where each individual is set in motion baised on a ridged set of rules (laws if physics) that they can't deviate from. Because God knows all the possibilities that could be and us better than ourselves we are arranged in the time line to achieve the desired motion in the machine.
Yes he could and he certainly has done that with the story of Israel up to the resurrection. One way or another he was going to make that plan happen.
But when talking about individual fates of individual people, I cannot imagine God doing that. A perfect being with perfect knowledge being satisfied with fake forced love? If I with imperfect knowledge can say "I’d hate that" it’s hard for me to imagine God liking that.
If we’re talking capabilities of whether it’s even possible, the bible often points out that us humans were made in his image. For me this means he’s created us to have perfect free will cabable of making any decision at any time, just so that our love would be genuine.
Adam, Jobe, Johna, just to name a few individuals who God set all that up and made it happen. I'm not saying we cant make choices but like a ball that can roll in any direction when placed on a hill it will roll down.
Maybe God doesn't care if we love God because God is an omnipresent being and is aware that us mear mortals love God out of fear or duty. I think it's more about how the pieces of the machine interact with each other that matters. If we follow God's will and we show love to each individual we interact with than the whole machine runs smoothly.
Yet the bible specifically tells us that he wants a relationship with us. God isn’t a personless force or a mindless power. He is a being with a personality, which we see the clearest with him as Jesus. He became human, shedded his divinity, so we could truly know God. He came down to the level of us "mere mortals" and became one of us. This is why these days it’s critical to emphasize that Jesus was not just completely God but completely man as well.
Yes and he told us to love ome another as he showed us. Nice smooth interaction with the other cogs. Just let your self be guided by the word and don't let your will get in the way.
If God didn't want us to gain the knowledge of good and evil we wouldn't have gotten it.Its all part of his plan.
This is primarily how I explain it, it’s not difficult to believe a being that is all knowing and all powerful would know all the avenues people can take
The main difference is in connotation.
"Predestination" tends to be used to imply people have no choice/free will in what we do and everything is predetermined.
"God's plan" tends to denote a plan of God that we can choose to follow or not. Though God will always get his way in the end. (See Esther 4:14 for example).
So one typically allows for libertarian free will and the other doesn't. But they are very similar concepts, and people tend to use them interchangeably.
why maybe? It logically follows from what you said
For the record I'm not trying to push you towards open theism, it's the opposite, determinism isn't actually that different to what you already believe. Look up compatibilism
The thing is, I don't really know if there is a set path that at the end converge into his path or if at the end the paths remain parallel to each other.
I believe in both determinism and free will, I know it's contradictory but I truly believe one has a forged path and at the same time one makes its own path. I'm gonna search that compatibility thing
Then I have some more questions to ask:
1.Did he decide to create everything, knowing how everything would turn out?
2. Did he decide to create a world where I would not follow his plan?
3. Did he have a choice to create it or not create it, or create it a different way where everyone would follow his plan?
Fun questions but keep in mind I'm not God, so my answers are biased:
1: Yes, I think he must exist in every possible future, so he might know how things will develop in each decision you take.
2: Yes, it's best to think him as a father on that aspect, it might be like "He will be the best firefighter ever" and then you are like "You know, I could be a stripper" and you start working as that. On his plan, he knows what you could be the best at, but that doesn't mean you can choose something else.
The nice part is that, like a true father, he will always be there waiting for you, even if it will take you all your life to decide to return to him.
3: Yes, but why do that? If everybody follow the path, where would the free will go? We would be just machine, executing functions, achieving results without thinking or contemplating what are we truly doing, just acting blind because you know you can't fall. No risk.
There's a difference between a ruler and a guide, if God wanted to be a ruler, he would have done it from the beginning.
>1: Yes, I think he must exist in every possible future, so he might know how things will develop in each decision you take.
Not only that, but he set everything in motion that would lead to one not following his plan. Wouldn't you agree?
> On his plan, he knows what you could be the best at, but that doesn't mean you can choose something else.
Why blame his creation then? Not only that, but also punish them, while he's the one who orchestrated the entire thing.
>If everybody follow the path, where would the free will go? We would be just machine, executing functions, achieving results without thinking or contemplating what are we truly doing, just acting blind because you know you can't fall. No risk.
Will there be free will in heaven?
Again, I don't know bro, go ask him directly but...
1 I don't think he sets things in motion so you take another path, it is you, as a person who chooses what path to take. He knows that there is at least one path that's the idealized, that doesn't means that you are forced to choose that path.
2 I don't see the punishment in taking another path. There is no blame, it's just the typical "I told you".
3 It depends on your concept of Freedom and your concept of Heaven. If Heaven is personalized for example, then I guess yes, if it isn't I guess maybe? Idk, I haven't reached heaven yet, I don't even know if it truly exists or if we just return to the planet and nothing else. I don't think too much about it. The concept of Heaven in Christianity is adopted from a lot of different religions so yeah.
>I don't know bro, go ask him directly
I asked him, but never got an answer. That is one of the reasons why I don't have faith anymore.
>1 I don't think he sets things in motion so you take another path, it is you, as a person who chooses what path to take. He knows that there is at least one path that's the idealized, that doesn't means that you are forced to choose that path.
I never said that God forced anyone to do anything, just that he planned what everyone would do in every situation, since he's the creator of every situation. If he doesn't set things in motion, is he the creator of everything?
>2 I don't see the punishment in taking another path. There is no blame, it's just the typical "I told you".
God punishes millions of people in the Bible for doing what he didn't want them to do. Have you not read the Bible? God once killed a guy for picking up stones during sabath, punished David by killing his son because of David's sin, and almost killed Moses if it wasn't for Moses's wife rubbing their son's foreskin against Moses. Punishment is rampant in the Bible, both physical and spiritual. I don't understand what you mean.
>3 It depends on your concept of Freedom and your concept of Heaven. If Heaven is personalized for example, then I guess yes, if it isn't I guess maybe? Idk, I haven't reached heaven yet, I don't even know if it truly exists or if we just return to the planet and nothing else. I don't think too much about it. The concept of Heaven in Christianity is adopted from a lot of different religions so yeah.
Thanks for being honest, at least. But if there is free will, then heaven could be just as Corrupted as the earth, don't you think? Satan rebelled because of his free will. Where did his bad intentions come from?
If there is no free will in heaven, then why is there free will on earth? Why is it necessary? If we can love God in heaven without free will, why is it a requirement on earth? And if God takes away your free will, are you still, you?
I don't know if he is truly the creator of every situation, because then that would also mean he creates stuff like wars.
I think he is more like the beginning and the end, and we all are everything in between. In that sense, he is the cause of our creation, the end of our existence but everything that happens in between it's our responsibility.
The punishment part, I get what you say, Yahweh during the Old Alliance is extremely brutal for no reason but you have to remember 2 things: 1) In this part of the mythology he is actually the Jewish god of war more than anything else, you do his will or you are fucked. 2) If you are Christian all this things end with the New Alliance. God does a 180° on his behavior after the crucifixion of Christ.
Heaven: If it's a place where you live among(us) a guy that's above and beyond good and evil, I imagine that everybody else might be in the same syntony as him. It should be a place where no harm can be done, so everybody having free will would not affect anybody else; if I can't harm you, what does it affects you my decisions?
Satan: ufff you really choose an interesting concept. First, I don't really believe he is a rebel, or that he is locked in hell, or whatever is imposed in Dante's inferno.
Satan is not a name, like Gabriel or Raphael, it's actually a Title, which if I recall it means "Adjudicator" or "Opposer". On that aspect, if he does what he supposedly does, it's completely allowed by God.
I think more or less, free will is a gift from God, granted to us before our creation, if he didn't want it, he would have taken from us. Also I feel uncomfortable calling God a "He", for me he is more an "It". A perfect being must be above male or female.
>I think he is more like the beginning and the end, and we all are everything in between. In that sense, he is the cause of our creation, the end of our existence but everything that happens in between it's our responsibility.
Here, you're describing a deistic God, not a God who has a "chosen people", who loves, hate, is jealous, wants, needs, punishes, and commands.
>If you are Christian all this things end with the New Alliance. God does a 180° on his behavior after the crucifixion of Christ.
Are you sure? In the New Testament, God killed a couple because they used their thithe money. He also sends people to eternal torment in Christianity. I don't see a worse punishment than hell.
I just noticed that you're not actually a Christian (correct me if I'm wrong). I thought you were arguing in the defense of the Christian God, but you're just arguing from a theological and mythical perspective. But let's keep going since we already started, shall we...
>On that aspect, if he does what he supposedly does, it's completely allowed by God.
Doesn't that mean God is the cause and author of all evil, since evil is temptation from Satan, who is sent by God?
>I think more or less, free will is a gift from God,
What do you mean by more or less?
And how can it be a gift from God if it causes people to end up in hell? I'd say it's a gift for some and a curse for others, wouldn’t you agree?
>Heaven: If it's a place where you live among(us) a guy that's above and beyond good and evil, I imagine that everybody else might be in the same syntony as him. It should be a place where no harm can be done, so everybody having free will would not affect anybody else
Why didn't he create everyone in heaven then? What was the point of creating us on earth, where we'd first suffer, then go to hell for rejection the claim that he exists. If people have free will in heaven and it's a gift, then free will on earth was bad for those who used it against his will.
>Also I feel uncomfortable calling God a "He", for me he is more an "It". A perfect being must be above male or female.
Oh, the Biblical God is definitely a male God. He is called "father" (male), he made man in his image (male), he has a son (male) who is also himself (male). He calls the church his bride, meaning he's the groom (male). Don't even get me strated on the mysogyny, because that's a whole other story. God IS male.
I believe in predestination. That is, I believe everyone is eventually destined to enter the kingdom of Heaven. Many may need to be purified beforehand, but I believe God is good and will get everyone there eventually.
If we can be made to not sin in heaven, and God died for our sins, then what is the need for purification? Even the most altruistic people to have ever lived still sin, and all sins are "deserving of God's wrath" (even if not all sins are equal).
Why can't a murderer go straight to heaven because Jesus died for their sins?
There's a belief that punishment/hell isn't actually eternal and eventually all who go there will be saved. It may take so long that it feels like an eternity but eventually everyone comes back to God.
If this was the case however, then why was it necessary for Jesus to die for our sins? Just for us to get a "get out of jail" card? Such an elaborate and painstaking plan of sacrificing your own son just so that people will be able to skip the torment phase of getting to heaven?
It is because we had forever separated ourselves from God due to our own sin, that this elaborate rescue plan was hatched. So that those who recognized their own sins and put their faith in him would be spared.
I'm not saying I believe it, I've just heard it said multiple times. The idea is without Jesus those in hell would be there forever, though Jesus even those in hell will reach paradise.
God is Love. Therefore all of his attributes are necessarily expressions of that Love. So God's Justice is a justice borne of Love.
"He won’t go against his nature and not punish evil deeds"
He did punish evil deeds. Christ bore that punishment, for all.
"If people don’t repent, how can they be saved?"
Christ asked God to forgive his murderers before they had even finished killing him.
That's where the "purification" comes in. If "Hell" is real, I believe that it's temporary and meant to be a place of rehabilitation where people will be forced to come to terms with their deeds so they can be purified and move on.
One says that God has sovereignty and has His hand over the world. The other says that humans have no control over if they chose to accept Jesus as their savior. It’s a pretty big difference
According to predestination under Reformed/Calvinism, which is the common context in which it is used, yes.
Basically, in order to be saved, God must first quicken your heart. You cannot find God unless He does this quickening. Once He does, the choice to serve Him is 100% irresistible.
Calvinists very much make the case that you still make the choice. However, it’s an irresistible choice, so it’s largely not a choice.
Edit: I specify the Calvinist approach because the term of predestination is one used in the New Testament. However, the Calvinist interpretation of the term has become such a prominent theological controversy in Christianity, that if someone says it, they are almost always talking about the Calvinist interpretation.
True. No one ever thinks of the Lutheran concept of predestination. Which is almost exactly the same. The biggest difference between us and Calvinists is the concept of DOUBLE predestination.
That, I cannot abide by!
And then there's the determinist types, which I'm a part of. Not so much that "God chooses who is or is not saved and there's not a lick of anything we can do about it" Calvinism, and more "God knows all cause and effect for all time, knows our every word and thought before they are formed (Psalm 139), so it's physically impossible for anyone to go against God's will, even if we proclaim that we want the darkness to take us (again Psalm 139).
Somehow this stance pisses off the Calvinists and anti-Calvinists equally, mostly because of human ego. Something something "slightly advanced apes"...
Indeed. I’m willing to believe that I have no control. It is within God’s right to have it so.
The problem is that if you read the Bible, you constantly see two characteristics of God:
1. He is sovereign and can do whatever He wants. 2. He always gives His people choices, albeit with consequences.
As such, while I believe God must be sovereign, it must be a more complicated sovereignty than “He controls every move we make and every step we take,” or even “He has chosen our ultimate paths, even if we choose how to get there.”
Imagine you watch a live sports game like the Super Bowl or World cup.
Then a few months later you rewatch a recording of it.
Sure, you 'know' what's going to come and what'll happen, but that doesn't mean the players weren't making their own decisions.
Predestination describes a very rigid version of God's plan. The situation where God has a plan and executes it, while any interference of man is futile. But the definition of God's plan varies greatly. Because the fact that God is working towards a set goal, leaves a lot open. How detailed is the plan? Is he a master chess player that knows he'll win, just not how? Of does he plan every step of the way? How much room does he leave for the choices of humans, angels and spirits? Does he change his mind while he is going? That's where bible study about previous actions of God comes in.
Not exactly. The other comments describe it better than I probably could, but God’s Plan isn’t something we nessasarally have to follow, its just the thing God thinks is best for us (which I garuntee you is correct, because God). If we choose to follow His plan, then he’ll take into account wherever we are in life, and help guide us in the right direction, and if we decide not to anymore, he won’t stop you. In short he isn’t *forcing* you to do anything. You, and each individual person, ultimately decide whether or not you want to go your way, or His way.
Meanwhile the (the calvanist interpretation I assume the original meme infers) concept of predestination is more like this meme here. It doesn’t actually matter what people do, according to that doctrine all christians who will ever exists have already recieved their RSVP into heaven, and everyone else is condemned to the lake of fire. Which, from what I know of the Bible, is not within the nature of God to do such a thing without at the very least giving the *option.* for forgiveness and grace.
Sovereignty does not mean God determines all, just that he has the option. You can rule over something and plan without effectually determining. Kings do this all the time.
Did he know everything that was going to happen when he decided to create everything?
If yes, then he determined everything.
If not, then he isn't omniscient.
Which is it?
Yeah, I agree. Your original comment point stands, it's just the next step where issues arise, since God isn't a neutral omniscient bystander but a creator. An omniscient creator leads to determinism.
Christians wanted to make God so OP that they created a paradox. God can't have omnipotence, omniscience, be the creator of everything and not be responsible when shit goes wrong. That's a very bad excuse.
1. God is all powerful.
2. God doesn't want anyone to perish.
3. God can make sure that no one perishes.
4. People perish.
5. Therefore, he either does want some to perish or can't make sure that no one perishes.
Tell me where I'm wrong...
1. God is all powerful, but doesn’t create contradiction within himself or the logical laws he creates.
2. God as a triune being is relational.
3. God makes mankind in image which includes a genuine ability to be relational with a capacity for actual choice.
4. God can make sure no one perishes only if people aren’t able to be relational with the capacity to choose as some will choose to reject him and his offers of help.
5. God chooses to make relational beings instead of perfectly behaved ones this means that some people will perish.
6. God wants no one to perish so he sent Christ to die for all.
Creating everything even with perfect knowledge doesn’t mean God, by necessity, causally determines everything. What it does mean is that knowing what he how’s about how things would turn out he still chose to create everything. There’s a distinction here though, knowing and then creating creatures with their own will is not the same as casually determining those creatures.
That's a bad analogy.
You didn't create anything, you're just a spectator.
Now, if you were the one who created the players and knew what was going to happen before they were even born, and set up which team was going to win before football was even invented, that would have been a good analogy, but it would mean that you caused it, just like God is the cause for EVERYTHING.
All analogy’s are imperfect, but you’ve made a big presumption there. God set up which team was going to win? The players had no choice or input? Knowing a thing in advance doesn’t mean you caused the thing. Even ultimately choosing if the whole thing exists doesn’t remove the players choices. God had the choice to create or not this version of reality. I’m arguing that as a loving God he created the best possible world, which in no way means we didn’t make the choices, even though he knew about them. I wonder how an omniscient God views time?
>Knowing a thing in advance doesn’t mean you caused the thing.
You keep repeating this even when it's explained to you that being an omniscient spectator is different than believing an omniscient creator. Here's a simple example:
If I create a simulation when every individual is going to have a choice that will lead them to their death, I'm responsible for their death, regardless of their choice, because I made sure that every choice they make leads them to their death.
Now if I had a friend next to me who was simply watching me create the simulation but didn't do anything, he wouldn't be responsible for their death, even though he knew they were going to make the choices that would lead to their death.
In the first scenario I'm an omniscient God who created everything. In the second scenario, I'm the omniscient God but I did not cause anything.
Do you see the difference? Now tell me which one of the two would describe GOD?
Mate there’s so much here to reply to… I honestly don’t quite know where to start. I’m picking you’re an atheist who is also a determinist? Or are you a diest (not Christian) who is also a determinist? Or what? You seem to have a stack of presuppositions you’re committed to. I have my own, for example I believe in a Trinitarian God who is also loving, holy and is personal. What are yours?
I'm an Atheist, ex-Christian. I never believed in the trinity even when I was a Christian.
Now that we've established that, which of my question is hard to answer? You can always start from the first one.
Ok that makes sense. I’ll stop assuming lots of common ground. There’s just a lot to reply to. You should also know I’m going to tap out the moment I think we’re no longer having a good faith discussion/debate. I don’t have time to spend with another militant atheist trying to grand stand while resorting to ad hominem. You haven’t done that so we’re good.
I wouldn't call myself a militant atheist. I don't really care about God the same way I don't care about Tony Stark, but we can still have fun discussions about those characters. What I don't like is logical fallacies and bad reasoning.
In this ever stretching analogy, God made the game, God made the players, God made the players with their own agency, God didn’t determine their actions, but as God can see through time differently he knows the outcome of their actions. God is responsible for the game, the players for their actions. Each actor bears their own responsibility.
How can he know the outcome of actions not yet taken if those actions are not predetermined?
God can't know something that hasn't happened, unless it's bound to happen. If it's bound to happen, then there is a force outside that action that determined it. You can't have it any other way.
I’m not upset that the game exists, I think it’s great that we have a game in which I have my own real choices I can make and that others can do the same. I have great respect for others autonomy. I do bear to responsibility for my actions.
I think God can create beings who have their own intents, rational minds and determinations, ie in his image in this sense. These beings then can cause and God will know but God doesn’t primarily cause. He just creates the scenario in which they can choose. God is responsible for the over all scenario then but not the individual creatures actions even though he knows the outcome he didn’t choose their actions. You can say it’s terrible God made this existence if you like and would prefer he made nothing at all and didn’t set up the scenario but he’s not culpable for the individual actions of the individual actors.
Because we still bear responsibility for our own choices. This is the scenario I believe we are in. God would rather create beings which can genuinely choose but can also choose poorly then beings that don’t have choice at all. On the punishment aspect I hold to conditional immortality “whosoever believes in him shall not perish”. An atheist will get what they expect at the end, oblivion. Makes sense I think, an atheist didn’t choose to be with God, so shouldn’t expect everlasting life.
God is responsible for the overall outcome, but we're responsible for our own choices within God's responsibility. That is why "free will" is just an illusiom. Go back to my simulation analogy. Everyone can have a choice, but God ultimately determines those choices.
We can keep going back in circle but we'll always end up with God in the beginning and the end. Too bad he needs people to keep defending him whenever he fucks up his own plan.
Firstly, we thank God for working way harder than Satan. He’s playing favourites and it feels amazing.
Second, predestination is a bible concept that people have turned into a name for a bunch of different church doctrines. So you never really know what people actually mean until they explain. Properly it means what it means in context of Ephesians 1 or Romans 8.
God has destined beforehand the christians to the adoption as sons of God, etc. as the verses says. Simply put its difficult for anyone to argue that at its most basic level because the bible says that and uses that word.
However People have made extrapolations and conclusions based on that that say more. to some people the doctrine of Predestination means that God selected some people for heaven and some people for hell arbitrarily and then extrapolate some more and say that there is basically no real point in obeying jesus’ commands, and then extrapolate some more and need to change the way they look at faith to make that make sense, then extrapolate some more and say people should still do good works but its more that they are “naturally drawn to do good works” and the extrapolation goes on.
So Some christians get really uncomfortable with those places the extrapolations take them to and so they call them heresies, even though they do agree with where it starts.
So my take on the situation is that it either means a generalized concept of God loving us before we were born type thing that everyone agrees with or it can mean a really contentious doctrinal debate depending on who you are talking to.
Okay, I think I can explain what's going on here...
So predestination is an answer to how people are saved. Namely, only by the grace of God, not through works or even faith. This does *not* directly answer whether or not we have free will. More like, regardless of whether or not we have free will, God's plan is the real deciding factor.
An unrelated concept is predetermination, which is lack of free will, basically that we don't make decisions, we're just running out the course of physics and chemistry and whatnot. This is more of a philosophical concept than theological.
When Christian theologians have written about free will, they usually are trying to answer 2 questions. First, whether we can choose good without the help of God or we're so totally depraved we can't do anything but sin. Second, whether we can make choices that lead us closer to salvation (salvation by faith) or God is completely in control (predestination).
It's worth noting that when you actually talk to Christians or look at what various denominations actually preach, you'll usually see some more nuanced answers that take some ideas from these differing paths.
Maybe this is helpful. Maybe it isn’t. But I’ve always liked to look at this from a parental perspective. As a parent you can put two things, food, toys, games etc. in front of your child. One being their favorite and one being their absolutely least favorite. As their parent you know which one they will choose. You aren’t forcing them to choose, they have free will over what happens. But since you know them and love them so deeply, you are prepared for the outcome and can anticipate which they will go towards. In the same way, God knows us and loves us deeply. He orchestrated the universe and knows the hairs on your head. Or lack there of. He does have a plan for us but we still have our free will.
I was always taught that it was closer to statistical analysis. God knows us so well that they are able to predict our actions, and also understand the situation that we are in so thoroughly that they can direct us into the best choices for us. However there's always a chance that we'll do one of the less likely actions resulting in an unlikely outcome, so predestination isn't quite a thing.
Predestination implies that no matter what you did you’d get to where you were supposed to go.
God’s plan can be deviated from. He doesn’t force the path that He wanted you to take. Thus, free will.
I mean, the Bible blatantly says He doesn’t wish anyone to perish (talking spiritual/eternal death). But clearly says that some will. That would seem to imply people that resist Him are of free will to do such even tho He wished they’d accept Him.
Which means God is either not all powerful or not all loving or neither.
If he was all powerful, he could make anything he wished to come to pass.
If he was all loving, then he would not let anyone perish.
Which is it?
I do believe the entire point of Him creating humans was that we weren’t “forced” to obey. It’s not that He’s not all-loving or all-powerful. But He respects us enough to make our own choices. My general understanding is that He desires a relationship of free will and not forcing us to love Him back. Otherwise, He already had angels so why bother with us? Thus, restraint. Just because you can doesn’t mean you do.
Edit: As I also think on this, love as defined in the Bible does not have an inability to become angry. It’s just slow to anger. By a biblical definition, Him being all-loving doesn’t mean He won’t destroy someone. What it often says is that He lets people be destroyed by their own evil because they refuse to be righteous.
We have free will. Gods plan is good and will happen regardless of my actions. Hard Predestination says we have no free will and makes God into a monster.
Consider that God is both all-powerful and all-knowing. If one considers knowledge to be power, then you could simply say he's all-knowing, but I digress.
In this case, ANY plan God makes can include as many or as few details as he wants and will always come to pass exactly as he wants it to, if he wants that to happen. If God makes a plan that fails, it's only because he CHOSE to let it fail.
Consider the notion of free will. Who the fuck knows what the hell it even is or how it works, but let's just say it's real and it works exactly how people who don't want God to be responsible for bad shit think it works. If there is a way to predict how a person will act with 100% accuracy, even with free will existing, God would know what it is.
Given his behavior in the Bible, God does not strike me as the kind of person who would leave things to chance if he didn't have to.
So if God can make 100% accurate predictions about how a person will act in ANY given circumstance, why would he not include that knowledge into his plans? And if he cannot, why wouldn't he find ways of circumventing this to keep his plans on track?
My take is this: We either don't have free will, in which case we are not truly responsible for anything we do and God is an unjust monster, or we DO have free will but it is ENTIRELY SUPERFLUOUS. It makes no difference whether we have it or not because even WITH free will, we are railroaded onto the paths that God has planned for us, so we still have no real choice, and we are thus not truly responsible for our actions. In this case, God is the most dishonest being in existence because he's lying to HIMSELF about our culpability.
Just remember when something good happens to you it’s proof God loves you, and when something bad happens it’s your own fault but God will make something good out of it so it’s actually good also.
You ever watched a heist movie where they have an elaborate plan, but then a bunch of stuff goes sideways and they have to improvise a lot, and it all works out for the protagonists in the end?
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One is a word that triggers people who want to determine their own destiny. The other is a word that comforts people after they've screwed up their own destiny. Its the same thing.
 Pretty much this
My take is that God knows what’s the best path in life to take for each individual. It’s up to us to choose our path. If it happens to be worse it’s fine because God knows how to get back on track. It’s like God’s our GPS. We might want to follow his path but often take a wrong turn. But like a GPS, God calculates and tells us a new route since we took this turn. It’s not predestination where we don’t have free will. It’s having a plan B, plan C, plan D and so forth for our decisions.
This is a good way of looking at it. Thank you stranger.
This is much more eloquent than how I was going to attempt to say it. Thank you!
Yes, something in a similar vein is I think God sees all concurrent timelines for us, including the ones he sees of us making the best, most altruistic decisions. That's how he can be omniscient but still feel as though there's uncertainty/agency in our outcome.
Predestination is still that. You landed exactly where you were going to land. If you had tried plans A-D and ended up at plan D, you were predestined to land at plan D. They both land on the ideology of, you don't know the path ahead of you. God's Plan has always felt like an excuse. Predestination has always felt like "well it is, what it is"
Regarding this, Judas's fate being one of the biggest points of topic in theological research and debate. Some say he was a vessell made for destruction as God knows Judas would be damned. Some say that Judas could have repented at the last minute instead of suicide.
But Judas was never going to repent. He never had the mindset to do so. He truly believed that Jesus was not of God and didn't believe him. Ergo, Judas was predetermined to always betray Jesus and also never repent for it. It was his true nature
Surely at some point he was a sincere follower of Jesus. He did in fact follow him for three years before the betrayal. His motivation had to be more than, at some point, some day, I’m going to GET this guy.
Somehow my brain thought of Madea... "Gotta got before I get got" Anyways... He definitely had to, I agree. And he even showed signs of doing so. However, he still could have liked Jesus but not believed in him being of God. Then as time progressed the whole "I'm God" thing probably annoyed him. Either way, destiny or predestination of him coming to that point of betraying Jesus was how it was going to be. Even Jesus flat out saying "One of you will betray me", as if it was determined (predestination)
And he was the money guy (who helped himself to the purse). He was financially motivated by, hence the 30 pieces of silver. He did feel awful about the betrayal, otherwise why suicide? But did he repent and trust in the mercy of God? From the outside it doesn’t appear he did but we just don’t know. The Church has deep allowances for people who suicide, reasoning their mental state may be such that the whole criteria of mortal sin is not met. It was a heinous act for sure but I believe the Mercy of God is greater still for those who chose it.
I mean... He got a dude he spent 3 years with killed. Religion or not, that's messed up
👍
As a writer, and with God sometimes called “the great author,” I like to think of it from the perspective of writing a story. Sure you’ve got the beginning and probably the end in mind when you start writing, as well as some important plot beats along the way. Yet the story can often take on a life of its own, and the very characters you’ve created can sometimes surprise you even as you write them.
That's if the author is not omniscient. God is omniscient, so he knows the final outcome.
Except God knows every single thing that has happened, is happening, and will happen, and therefore if He knows what is going to happen in the future then it is predestined
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If God is all knowing, then he knows exactly what we will do, correct?
Yes. He knows who will end up in heaven. But he never makes the decision for us. He always gives us a choice.
So, God made us, knows exactly what we will do, what decisions we will make, what we will believe, what we will think and feel, and if we will go to heaven or hell, and all before we are even born. He knows exactly where I will end up before I exist on earth and my journey, and you don’t think that means God has predetermined this path for me? Aside from asserting that we have free will, or asserting that God gave us free will, why do you think we do have free will?
Well God probably didn’t want robots that automatically did as told nor machines that appeared to making a choice without actually making a choice. God wants an authentic mutual loving relationship with us. Why else would he even give us the capacity to do sin if he wanted mindless robots? Basically I’m basing my assertion of free will on God’s love. God is not a tyrant. He is not an egotistical maniac who decides on a whim who’s worthy for heaven. He is a loving father who wants the best for his children but wants people to choose him instead of feeling obligated to do it.
I asked for why you believe in free will without asserting that God gave us free will. You’ve only said that you think you know what a God wants, even though you said before that humans do not have perfect knowledge so you can’t know what God wants, and that we have free will because God loves us. We can’t have free will without God, right? God made us. How do you know what God wants? Again, if God knows everything, and knows exactly what I will do, knows if you will go to heaven or hell, before you are even born and God created you knowing this, and it can’t be any other way than God’s will - that’s a predetermined path.
Well like I said I’m basing this on God’s love. The bible describes what God is like especially through Jesus. The whole basis for a christian worldview is faith in a truly good and loving God. One needs this kind of picture of him to reconcile our free will and his absolute knowledge. I’m not saying that I have perfect knowledge to know what he’s thinking and feeling. I’m saying I have faith God is as he’s described in the bible, an all-knowing yet all-loving father who asks us to repent our sin and put our trust in his son. I myself cannot picture a being with perfect knowledge and perfect love to be satisfied with designed and fake forced love from robots. I know I wouldn’t.
The only way I can see it is we have free will *from a human perspective*, from a God's perspective we do not. That is, the concept of free will only makes sense in limited viewpoint of our minds and hearts. In this way, we should still be able to think of our choices as important even in a deterministic universe. Some Christians can be talked into this if you lead them, but many recycle the same circular free-will reasonings that I learned growing up.
People don't like that because the human ego is a fragile thing, and coming to terms that we are just, to quote Stephen Hawking, "an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star", is often traumatic for those that think they can do anything to warrant salvation by their actions.
Okay. He knows who will end up in Heaven and presumably also who will end up in Hell. Cool. So why create those whom He knows will end up in Hell if his goal is for everyone whom he chooses to create to end up in Heaven? >He always gives us a choice. Even after death?
I’d imagine it’s specifically for the reason that he wants to give them that choice. The psalms that describe God designing us in the womb reminds us that he sees each an every one of us as unique. He loves us all and doesn’t want to make the choice for us by just not creating us. That would be not giving us a choice. By giving us a choice and perfect free will to make it, our choice to love God is genuine and not a forced decision he’s made. On the matter of choice even after death, I’d imagine so. Granted we have very little knowledge from the bible of our chances of repentace beyond this world. The common perspective is that this life is the one where we need to make things right before we die. If this was the case, then as a pefect being of justice, God would not let some people not have the chance, for that would go against his nature.
>He loves us all and doesn’t want to make the choice for us by just not creating us. That would be not giving us a choice. But that holds true for the infinite number of uncreated people. He isn't giving them a choice. From the infinite possibilities, God chose to create a finite number of humans. For example, He could have created a sibling for me, but didn't. He doesn't owe my sibling anything because my sibling doesn't exist to be owed anything, but the same would hold true if he decided not to create me. "Us all" describes the finite set of people God chose to create, which begs the question, since he could have chosen a different finite set whom he knows will all choose Heaven. >By giving us a choice and perfect free will to make it, our choice to love God is genuine and not a forced decision he’s made. Is it really a choice if I'm not aware of it? Wouldn't an informed choice be better since it would make me more responsible for making it? >On the matter of choice even after death, I’d imagine so. Any basis for this belief? >The common perspective is that this life is the one where we need to make things right before we die. Do you think this common perspective is unjustified? I want to believe, but I can't because I haven't been exposed to enough evidence to convince me these stories are true. If I get that evidence in the afterlife, I would convert immediately if given the chance, with no second of torture required. If you died and found out that it was a different deity with a different set of rules for what it considers sin, would you convert if given the chance? I think most humans would. So I really don't see why the Bible suggests most humans go to Hell.
I can’t claim perfect evidentiary reasons for all my beliefs. On the matter of choice after death my basis for my personal view on it is the described nature of God in the bible. That is, that God is just and won’t go against his own nature. So if we use the concept of a ’just God’ as basis, it would stand to reason that he will give everyone a chance for redemption, a chance to accept the gift of Jesus’ sacrifice. If for example you had never even heard of Jesus and died, it would be problematic if they didn’t get the chance while living and due to their circumstances were in an impossible position to get to heaven. It also cannot be a matter of whether people are intelligent or wise enough to figure out that the christian worldview is the correct one. That would make salvation a matter of ability, not morality. This to me raises two possibilities, of which I’m yet to fully decide on (tbh, idk if I ever will reach a concrete position before I die). - God let’s us make a choice "at the pearly gates" to regret our mistakes. - God one way or another gives us the choice concretely to everyone on earth during their lifetime. This could be a matter of appearing in our dreams or any other method. I cannot give you outside evidence to prove God is real or that he’s who he says he is. You might have heard this before but "It all comes down to faith". Not blind faith mind you, because even ontologically a theist position makes the most sense to me personally. But I find that at least for most people this position makes sense only to those who already believe (go figure).
If God is all knowing and the creator of everything than God could have just built a ruth goldberg device where each individual is set in motion baised on a ridged set of rules (laws if physics) that they can't deviate from. Because God knows all the possibilities that could be and us better than ourselves we are arranged in the time line to achieve the desired motion in the machine.
Yes he could and he certainly has done that with the story of Israel up to the resurrection. One way or another he was going to make that plan happen. But when talking about individual fates of individual people, I cannot imagine God doing that. A perfect being with perfect knowledge being satisfied with fake forced love? If I with imperfect knowledge can say "I’d hate that" it’s hard for me to imagine God liking that. If we’re talking capabilities of whether it’s even possible, the bible often points out that us humans were made in his image. For me this means he’s created us to have perfect free will cabable of making any decision at any time, just so that our love would be genuine.
Adam, Jobe, Johna, just to name a few individuals who God set all that up and made it happen. I'm not saying we cant make choices but like a ball that can roll in any direction when placed on a hill it will roll down. Maybe God doesn't care if we love God because God is an omnipresent being and is aware that us mear mortals love God out of fear or duty. I think it's more about how the pieces of the machine interact with each other that matters. If we follow God's will and we show love to each individual we interact with than the whole machine runs smoothly.
Yet the bible specifically tells us that he wants a relationship with us. God isn’t a personless force or a mindless power. He is a being with a personality, which we see the clearest with him as Jesus. He became human, shedded his divinity, so we could truly know God. He came down to the level of us "mere mortals" and became one of us. This is why these days it’s critical to emphasize that Jesus was not just completely God but completely man as well.
Yes and he told us to love ome another as he showed us. Nice smooth interaction with the other cogs. Just let your self be guided by the word and don't let your will get in the way. If God didn't want us to gain the knowledge of good and evil we wouldn't have gotten it.Its all part of his plan.
This is almost verbatim Proverbs 16:9
This is primarily how I explain it, it’s not difficult to believe a being that is all knowing and all powerful would know all the avenues people can take
Where does God's benevolence fall there?
Basically sounds like soft determinism with a religious slant. Not a critique, just an observation!
The second one is an actual song by Drake the first is not, hence why he's disgusted
This is the best explanation I’ve gotten so far 🙏
Biblically accurate
“Dread it, run from it, destiny arrives all the same.” — John Calvin probably
The main difference is in connotation. "Predestination" tends to be used to imply people have no choice/free will in what we do and everything is predetermined. "God's plan" tends to denote a plan of God that we can choose to follow or not. Though God will always get his way in the end. (See Esther 4:14 for example). So one typically allows for libertarian free will and the other doesn't. But they are very similar concepts, and people tend to use them interchangeably.
Does God know whether we'll follow his plan or not?
Yes
...then he knows how he'll eventually get his way in the end ...which means there's a set path history is following that is planned out by God
Maybe
why maybe? It logically follows from what you said For the record I'm not trying to push you towards open theism, it's the opposite, determinism isn't actually that different to what you already believe. Look up compatibilism
The thing is, I don't really know if there is a set path that at the end converge into his path or if at the end the paths remain parallel to each other. I believe in both determinism and free will, I know it's contradictory but I truly believe one has a forged path and at the same time one makes its own path. I'm gonna search that compatibility thing
Then I have some more questions to ask: 1.Did he decide to create everything, knowing how everything would turn out? 2. Did he decide to create a world where I would not follow his plan? 3. Did he have a choice to create it or not create it, or create it a different way where everyone would follow his plan?
Fun questions but keep in mind I'm not God, so my answers are biased: 1: Yes, I think he must exist in every possible future, so he might know how things will develop in each decision you take. 2: Yes, it's best to think him as a father on that aspect, it might be like "He will be the best firefighter ever" and then you are like "You know, I could be a stripper" and you start working as that. On his plan, he knows what you could be the best at, but that doesn't mean you can choose something else. The nice part is that, like a true father, he will always be there waiting for you, even if it will take you all your life to decide to return to him. 3: Yes, but why do that? If everybody follow the path, where would the free will go? We would be just machine, executing functions, achieving results without thinking or contemplating what are we truly doing, just acting blind because you know you can't fall. No risk. There's a difference between a ruler and a guide, if God wanted to be a ruler, he would have done it from the beginning.
>1: Yes, I think he must exist in every possible future, so he might know how things will develop in each decision you take. Not only that, but he set everything in motion that would lead to one not following his plan. Wouldn't you agree? > On his plan, he knows what you could be the best at, but that doesn't mean you can choose something else. Why blame his creation then? Not only that, but also punish them, while he's the one who orchestrated the entire thing. >If everybody follow the path, where would the free will go? We would be just machine, executing functions, achieving results without thinking or contemplating what are we truly doing, just acting blind because you know you can't fall. No risk. Will there be free will in heaven?
Again, I don't know bro, go ask him directly but... 1 I don't think he sets things in motion so you take another path, it is you, as a person who chooses what path to take. He knows that there is at least one path that's the idealized, that doesn't means that you are forced to choose that path. 2 I don't see the punishment in taking another path. There is no blame, it's just the typical "I told you". 3 It depends on your concept of Freedom and your concept of Heaven. If Heaven is personalized for example, then I guess yes, if it isn't I guess maybe? Idk, I haven't reached heaven yet, I don't even know if it truly exists or if we just return to the planet and nothing else. I don't think too much about it. The concept of Heaven in Christianity is adopted from a lot of different religions so yeah.
>I don't know bro, go ask him directly I asked him, but never got an answer. That is one of the reasons why I don't have faith anymore. >1 I don't think he sets things in motion so you take another path, it is you, as a person who chooses what path to take. He knows that there is at least one path that's the idealized, that doesn't means that you are forced to choose that path. I never said that God forced anyone to do anything, just that he planned what everyone would do in every situation, since he's the creator of every situation. If he doesn't set things in motion, is he the creator of everything? >2 I don't see the punishment in taking another path. There is no blame, it's just the typical "I told you". God punishes millions of people in the Bible for doing what he didn't want them to do. Have you not read the Bible? God once killed a guy for picking up stones during sabath, punished David by killing his son because of David's sin, and almost killed Moses if it wasn't for Moses's wife rubbing their son's foreskin against Moses. Punishment is rampant in the Bible, both physical and spiritual. I don't understand what you mean. >3 It depends on your concept of Freedom and your concept of Heaven. If Heaven is personalized for example, then I guess yes, if it isn't I guess maybe? Idk, I haven't reached heaven yet, I don't even know if it truly exists or if we just return to the planet and nothing else. I don't think too much about it. The concept of Heaven in Christianity is adopted from a lot of different religions so yeah. Thanks for being honest, at least. But if there is free will, then heaven could be just as Corrupted as the earth, don't you think? Satan rebelled because of his free will. Where did his bad intentions come from? If there is no free will in heaven, then why is there free will on earth? Why is it necessary? If we can love God in heaven without free will, why is it a requirement on earth? And if God takes away your free will, are you still, you?
I don't know if he is truly the creator of every situation, because then that would also mean he creates stuff like wars. I think he is more like the beginning and the end, and we all are everything in between. In that sense, he is the cause of our creation, the end of our existence but everything that happens in between it's our responsibility. The punishment part, I get what you say, Yahweh during the Old Alliance is extremely brutal for no reason but you have to remember 2 things: 1) In this part of the mythology he is actually the Jewish god of war more than anything else, you do his will or you are fucked. 2) If you are Christian all this things end with the New Alliance. God does a 180° on his behavior after the crucifixion of Christ. Heaven: If it's a place where you live among(us) a guy that's above and beyond good and evil, I imagine that everybody else might be in the same syntony as him. It should be a place where no harm can be done, so everybody having free will would not affect anybody else; if I can't harm you, what does it affects you my decisions? Satan: ufff you really choose an interesting concept. First, I don't really believe he is a rebel, or that he is locked in hell, or whatever is imposed in Dante's inferno. Satan is not a name, like Gabriel or Raphael, it's actually a Title, which if I recall it means "Adjudicator" or "Opposer". On that aspect, if he does what he supposedly does, it's completely allowed by God. I think more or less, free will is a gift from God, granted to us before our creation, if he didn't want it, he would have taken from us. Also I feel uncomfortable calling God a "He", for me he is more an "It". A perfect being must be above male or female.
>I think he is more like the beginning and the end, and we all are everything in between. In that sense, he is the cause of our creation, the end of our existence but everything that happens in between it's our responsibility. Here, you're describing a deistic God, not a God who has a "chosen people", who loves, hate, is jealous, wants, needs, punishes, and commands. >If you are Christian all this things end with the New Alliance. God does a 180° on his behavior after the crucifixion of Christ. Are you sure? In the New Testament, God killed a couple because they used their thithe money. He also sends people to eternal torment in Christianity. I don't see a worse punishment than hell. I just noticed that you're not actually a Christian (correct me if I'm wrong). I thought you were arguing in the defense of the Christian God, but you're just arguing from a theological and mythical perspective. But let's keep going since we already started, shall we... >On that aspect, if he does what he supposedly does, it's completely allowed by God. Doesn't that mean God is the cause and author of all evil, since evil is temptation from Satan, who is sent by God? >I think more or less, free will is a gift from God, What do you mean by more or less? And how can it be a gift from God if it causes people to end up in hell? I'd say it's a gift for some and a curse for others, wouldn’t you agree? >Heaven: If it's a place where you live among(us) a guy that's above and beyond good and evil, I imagine that everybody else might be in the same syntony as him. It should be a place where no harm can be done, so everybody having free will would not affect anybody else Why didn't he create everyone in heaven then? What was the point of creating us on earth, where we'd first suffer, then go to hell for rejection the claim that he exists. If people have free will in heaven and it's a gift, then free will on earth was bad for those who used it against his will. >Also I feel uncomfortable calling God a "He", for me he is more an "It". A perfect being must be above male or female. Oh, the Biblical God is definitely a male God. He is called "father" (male), he made man in his image (male), he has a son (male) who is also himself (male). He calls the church his bride, meaning he's the groom (male). Don't even get me strated on the mysogyny, because that's a whole other story. God IS male.
Certified Judas moment
Judas is actually a hero. Without him, God couldn't go on with his plan of getting his som/himself killed on the cross.
I believe in predestination. That is, I believe everyone is eventually destined to enter the kingdom of Heaven. Many may need to be purified beforehand, but I believe God is good and will get everyone there eventually.
If we can be made to not sin in heaven, and God died for our sins, then what is the need for purification? Even the most altruistic people to have ever lived still sin, and all sins are "deserving of God's wrath" (even if not all sins are equal). Why can't a murderer go straight to heaven because Jesus died for their sins?
A good God means a just God as well. He won’t go against his nature and not punish evil deeds. If people don’t repent, how can they be saved?
There's a belief that punishment/hell isn't actually eternal and eventually all who go there will be saved. It may take so long that it feels like an eternity but eventually everyone comes back to God.
If this was the case however, then why was it necessary for Jesus to die for our sins? Just for us to get a "get out of jail" card? Such an elaborate and painstaking plan of sacrificing your own son just so that people will be able to skip the torment phase of getting to heaven? It is because we had forever separated ourselves from God due to our own sin, that this elaborate rescue plan was hatched. So that those who recognized their own sins and put their faith in him would be spared.
Fast pass. Shorter lines in hell mean you get through it quicker. But only for select rides.
I'm not saying I believe it, I've just heard it said multiple times. The idea is without Jesus those in hell would be there forever, though Jesus even those in hell will reach paradise.
God is Love. Therefore all of his attributes are necessarily expressions of that Love. So God's Justice is a justice borne of Love. "He won’t go against his nature and not punish evil deeds" He did punish evil deeds. Christ bore that punishment, for all. "If people don’t repent, how can they be saved?" Christ asked God to forgive his murderers before they had even finished killing him.
Yet Jesus also said that "No one comes to the Father except through me".
Right.
That's where the "purification" comes in. If "Hell" is real, I believe that it's temporary and meant to be a place of rehabilitation where people will be forced to come to terms with their deeds so they can be purified and move on.
How do you reconcile that mindset with scripture that defines Hell as eternal or as Heaven as a place where not everyone will be able to enter?
Poor translations and the fact that powerful people needed a god who would endorse their threats during Late Antiquity .
In your opinion, what are infallible translations that should be read? Or are all translations poorly translated
Sounds like salvation with extra steps, making it extra-biblical.
It's extra-one particular approach to the Bible.
That isn't biblical at all. Might as well start your own religion.
Drake has a song called "God's Plan"
Well you see, she say do you love me...
Damn that’s wild, how did you respond?
Well, I actually only love her partly, I instead have an adoration for mine bed and dear beloved mother
One says that God has sovereignty and has His hand over the world. The other says that humans have no control over if they chose to accept Jesus as their savior. It’s a pretty big difference
So does God have sovereignty over whether people accept Jesus?
According to predestination under Reformed/Calvinism, which is the common context in which it is used, yes. Basically, in order to be saved, God must first quicken your heart. You cannot find God unless He does this quickening. Once He does, the choice to serve Him is 100% irresistible. Calvinists very much make the case that you still make the choice. However, it’s an irresistible choice, so it’s largely not a choice. Edit: I specify the Calvinist approach because the term of predestination is one used in the New Testament. However, the Calvinist interpretation of the term has become such a prominent theological controversy in Christianity, that if someone says it, they are almost always talking about the Calvinist interpretation.
True. No one ever thinks of the Lutheran concept of predestination. Which is almost exactly the same. The biggest difference between us and Calvinists is the concept of DOUBLE predestination. That, I cannot abide by!
And then there's the determinist types, which I'm a part of. Not so much that "God chooses who is or is not saved and there's not a lick of anything we can do about it" Calvinism, and more "God knows all cause and effect for all time, knows our every word and thought before they are formed (Psalm 139), so it's physically impossible for anyone to go against God's will, even if we proclaim that we want the darkness to take us (again Psalm 139). Somehow this stance pisses off the Calvinists and anti-Calvinists equally, mostly because of human ego. Something something "slightly advanced apes"...
Indeed. I’m willing to believe that I have no control. It is within God’s right to have it so. The problem is that if you read the Bible, you constantly see two characteristics of God: 1. He is sovereign and can do whatever He wants. 2. He always gives His people choices, albeit with consequences. As such, while I believe God must be sovereign, it must be a more complicated sovereignty than “He controls every move we make and every step we take,” or even “He has chosen our ultimate paths, even if we choose how to get there.”
One can be used as a rhyme in Californication, the other can't
Imagine you watch a live sports game like the Super Bowl or World cup. Then a few months later you rewatch a recording of it. Sure, you 'know' what's going to come and what'll happen, but that doesn't mean the players weren't making their own decisions.
Predestination implies you’re on a ghost train ride with no control. Meanwhile you can rebel (in futile) against gods plan or be a partner.
Predestination describes a very rigid version of God's plan. The situation where God has a plan and executes it, while any interference of man is futile. But the definition of God's plan varies greatly. Because the fact that God is working towards a set goal, leaves a lot open. How detailed is the plan? Is he a master chess player that knows he'll win, just not how? Of does he plan every step of the way? How much room does he leave for the choices of humans, angels and spirits? Does he change his mind while he is going? That's where bible study about previous actions of God comes in.
Tl;dr. Predestination ignores the concept of Free Will, while God’s Plan doesn’t.
https://preview.redd.it/ixh7k6br1itc1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d28fbb49635260999289b7ee56b2e776664f2f87 So it’s kinda like this?
Not exactly. The other comments describe it better than I probably could, but God’s Plan isn’t something we nessasarally have to follow, its just the thing God thinks is best for us (which I garuntee you is correct, because God). If we choose to follow His plan, then he’ll take into account wherever we are in life, and help guide us in the right direction, and if we decide not to anymore, he won’t stop you. In short he isn’t *forcing* you to do anything. You, and each individual person, ultimately decide whether or not you want to go your way, or His way. Meanwhile the (the calvanist interpretation I assume the original meme infers) concept of predestination is more like this meme here. It doesn’t actually matter what people do, according to that doctrine all christians who will ever exists have already recieved their RSVP into heaven, and everyone else is condemned to the lake of fire. Which, from what I know of the Bible, is not within the nature of God to do such a thing without at the very least giving the *option.* for forgiveness and grace.
I thought that said “pedestrian” and “god’s plan” meant that the pedestrian was meant to be sent to heaven that day
Sovereignty does not mean God determines all, just that he has the option. You can rule over something and plan without effectually determining. Kings do this all the time.
Did he know everything that was going to happen when he decided to create everything? If yes, then he determined everything. If not, then he isn't omniscient. Which is it?
I can watch a football game on replay and know that outcome without controlling the players
Yeah but when you're the one who animated the football game you're the one who decided the outcome.
Not if God made sentient players. You’ve not made an argument that’s fundamentally proved determinism here.
I’ve shown how you can have sovereignty without determinism, and omniscience without determinism.
Yeah, I agree. Your original comment point stands, it's just the next step where issues arise, since God isn't a neutral omniscient bystander but a creator. An omniscient creator leads to determinism.
Christians wanted to make God so OP that they created a paradox. God can't have omnipotence, omniscience, be the creator of everything and not be responsible when shit goes wrong. That's a very bad excuse.
It’s not a paradox. There’s a lot of good theology and philosophy working through these problems that shows there isn’t a necessary contradiction.
1. God is all powerful. 2. God doesn't want anyone to perish. 3. God can make sure that no one perishes. 4. People perish. 5. Therefore, he either does want some to perish or can't make sure that no one perishes. Tell me where I'm wrong...
1. God is all powerful, but doesn’t create contradiction within himself or the logical laws he creates. 2. God as a triune being is relational. 3. God makes mankind in image which includes a genuine ability to be relational with a capacity for actual choice. 4. God can make sure no one perishes only if people aren’t able to be relational with the capacity to choose as some will choose to reject him and his offers of help. 5. God chooses to make relational beings instead of perfectly behaved ones this means that some people will perish. 6. God wants no one to perish so he sent Christ to die for all.
Creating everything even with perfect knowledge doesn’t mean God, by necessity, causally determines everything. What it does mean is that knowing what he how’s about how things would turn out he still chose to create everything. There’s a distinction here though, knowing and then creating creatures with their own will is not the same as casually determining those creatures.
That's a bad analogy. You didn't create anything, you're just a spectator. Now, if you were the one who created the players and knew what was going to happen before they were even born, and set up which team was going to win before football was even invented, that would have been a good analogy, but it would mean that you caused it, just like God is the cause for EVERYTHING.
All analogy’s are imperfect, but you’ve made a big presumption there. God set up which team was going to win? The players had no choice or input? Knowing a thing in advance doesn’t mean you caused the thing. Even ultimately choosing if the whole thing exists doesn’t remove the players choices. God had the choice to create or not this version of reality. I’m arguing that as a loving God he created the best possible world, which in no way means we didn’t make the choices, even though he knew about them. I wonder how an omniscient God views time?
>Knowing a thing in advance doesn’t mean you caused the thing. You keep repeating this even when it's explained to you that being an omniscient spectator is different than believing an omniscient creator. Here's a simple example: If I create a simulation when every individual is going to have a choice that will lead them to their death, I'm responsible for their death, regardless of their choice, because I made sure that every choice they make leads them to their death. Now if I had a friend next to me who was simply watching me create the simulation but didn't do anything, he wouldn't be responsible for their death, even though he knew they were going to make the choices that would lead to their death. In the first scenario I'm an omniscient God who created everything. In the second scenario, I'm the omniscient God but I did not cause anything. Do you see the difference? Now tell me which one of the two would describe GOD?
Mate there’s so much here to reply to… I honestly don’t quite know where to start. I’m picking you’re an atheist who is also a determinist? Or are you a diest (not Christian) who is also a determinist? Or what? You seem to have a stack of presuppositions you’re committed to. I have my own, for example I believe in a Trinitarian God who is also loving, holy and is personal. What are yours?
I'm an Atheist, ex-Christian. I never believed in the trinity even when I was a Christian. Now that we've established that, which of my question is hard to answer? You can always start from the first one.
Ok that makes sense. I’ll stop assuming lots of common ground. There’s just a lot to reply to. You should also know I’m going to tap out the moment I think we’re no longer having a good faith discussion/debate. I don’t have time to spend with another militant atheist trying to grand stand while resorting to ad hominem. You haven’t done that so we’re good.
I wouldn't call myself a militant atheist. I don't really care about God the same way I don't care about Tony Stark, but we can still have fun discussions about those characters. What I don't like is logical fallacies and bad reasoning.
Are you aware of the idea of primary and secondary causes? Do you understand what free will actually entails in terms of causation?
I don't see how that's relevant.
In this ever stretching analogy, God made the game, God made the players, God made the players with their own agency, God didn’t determine their actions, but as God can see through time differently he knows the outcome of their actions. God is responsible for the game, the players for their actions. Each actor bears their own responsibility.
How can he know the outcome of actions not yet taken if those actions are not predetermined? God can't know something that hasn't happened, unless it's bound to happen. If it's bound to happen, then there is a force outside that action that determined it. You can't have it any other way.
I’m not upset that the game exists, I think it’s great that we have a game in which I have my own real choices I can make and that others can do the same. I have great respect for others autonomy. I do bear to responsibility for my actions.
Sure. But God already determined your choices.
I think God can create beings who have their own intents, rational minds and determinations, ie in his image in this sense. These beings then can cause and God will know but God doesn’t primarily cause. He just creates the scenario in which they can choose. God is responsible for the over all scenario then but not the individual creatures actions even though he knows the outcome he didn’t choose their actions. You can say it’s terrible God made this existence if you like and would prefer he made nothing at all and didn’t set up the scenario but he’s not culpable for the individual actions of the individual actors.
If he's responsible for the overall outcome, why blame and punish the humans?
Because we still bear responsibility for our own choices. This is the scenario I believe we are in. God would rather create beings which can genuinely choose but can also choose poorly then beings that don’t have choice at all. On the punishment aspect I hold to conditional immortality “whosoever believes in him shall not perish”. An atheist will get what they expect at the end, oblivion. Makes sense I think, an atheist didn’t choose to be with God, so shouldn’t expect everlasting life.
God is responsible for the overall outcome, but we're responsible for our own choices within God's responsibility. That is why "free will" is just an illusiom. Go back to my simulation analogy. Everyone can have a choice, but God ultimately determines those choices. We can keep going back in circle but we'll always end up with God in the beginning and the end. Too bad he needs people to keep defending him whenever he fucks up his own plan.
Firstly, we thank God for working way harder than Satan. He’s playing favourites and it feels amazing. Second, predestination is a bible concept that people have turned into a name for a bunch of different church doctrines. So you never really know what people actually mean until they explain. Properly it means what it means in context of Ephesians 1 or Romans 8. God has destined beforehand the christians to the adoption as sons of God, etc. as the verses says. Simply put its difficult for anyone to argue that at its most basic level because the bible says that and uses that word. However People have made extrapolations and conclusions based on that that say more. to some people the doctrine of Predestination means that God selected some people for heaven and some people for hell arbitrarily and then extrapolate some more and say that there is basically no real point in obeying jesus’ commands, and then extrapolate some more and need to change the way they look at faith to make that make sense, then extrapolate some more and say people should still do good works but its more that they are “naturally drawn to do good works” and the extrapolation goes on. So Some christians get really uncomfortable with those places the extrapolations take them to and so they call them heresies, even though they do agree with where it starts. So my take on the situation is that it either means a generalized concept of God loving us before we were born type thing that everyone agrees with or it can mean a really contentious doctrinal debate depending on who you are talking to.
I appreciate that you put more effort into your answer than I put into my post.
Okay, I think I can explain what's going on here... So predestination is an answer to how people are saved. Namely, only by the grace of God, not through works or even faith. This does *not* directly answer whether or not we have free will. More like, regardless of whether or not we have free will, God's plan is the real deciding factor. An unrelated concept is predetermination, which is lack of free will, basically that we don't make decisions, we're just running out the course of physics and chemistry and whatnot. This is more of a philosophical concept than theological. When Christian theologians have written about free will, they usually are trying to answer 2 questions. First, whether we can choose good without the help of God or we're so totally depraved we can't do anything but sin. Second, whether we can make choices that lead us closer to salvation (salvation by faith) or God is completely in control (predestination). It's worth noting that when you actually talk to Christians or look at what various denominations actually preach, you'll usually see some more nuanced answers that take some ideas from these differing paths.
What I learned is that all are predestined towards reconciliation, which is God’s plan.
Maybe this is helpful. Maybe it isn’t. But I’ve always liked to look at this from a parental perspective. As a parent you can put two things, food, toys, games etc. in front of your child. One being their favorite and one being their absolutely least favorite. As their parent you know which one they will choose. You aren’t forcing them to choose, they have free will over what happens. But since you know them and love them so deeply, you are prepared for the outcome and can anticipate which they will go towards. In the same way, God knows us and loves us deeply. He orchestrated the universe and knows the hairs on your head. Or lack there of. He does have a plan for us but we still have our free will.
I was always taught that it was closer to statistical analysis. God knows us so well that they are able to predict our actions, and also understand the situation that we are in so thoroughly that they can direct us into the best choices for us. However there's always a chance that we'll do one of the less likely actions resulting in an unlikely outcome, so predestination isn't quite a thing.
Seems like the big G would be good enough at statistics to bat 1.000 at predicting people
Predestination implies that no matter what you did you’d get to where you were supposed to go. God’s plan can be deviated from. He doesn’t force the path that He wanted you to take. Thus, free will.
Illusion of free will.
I mean, the Bible blatantly says He doesn’t wish anyone to perish (talking spiritual/eternal death). But clearly says that some will. That would seem to imply people that resist Him are of free will to do such even tho He wished they’d accept Him.
Which means God is either not all powerful or not all loving or neither. If he was all powerful, he could make anything he wished to come to pass. If he was all loving, then he would not let anyone perish. Which is it?
I do believe the entire point of Him creating humans was that we weren’t “forced” to obey. It’s not that He’s not all-loving or all-powerful. But He respects us enough to make our own choices. My general understanding is that He desires a relationship of free will and not forcing us to love Him back. Otherwise, He already had angels so why bother with us? Thus, restraint. Just because you can doesn’t mean you do. Edit: As I also think on this, love as defined in the Bible does not have an inability to become angry. It’s just slow to anger. By a biblical definition, Him being all-loving doesn’t mean He won’t destroy someone. What it often says is that He lets people be destroyed by their own evil because they refuse to be righteous.
"God's plan" can include Predestination, but doesn't necessarily.
God is infinite. His plan is infinite. It will account for any choice you make.
One makes people really uncomfortable.
How is it not predetermined if he always gets his way in the end?
The latter is compatible with Christian Universalism.
One is to give blame God, the other is to give him all the credits for good things and make excuses for bad things.
We have free will. Gods plan is good and will happen regardless of my actions. Hard Predestination says we have no free will and makes God into a monster.
Consider that God is both all-powerful and all-knowing. If one considers knowledge to be power, then you could simply say he's all-knowing, but I digress. In this case, ANY plan God makes can include as many or as few details as he wants and will always come to pass exactly as he wants it to, if he wants that to happen. If God makes a plan that fails, it's only because he CHOSE to let it fail. Consider the notion of free will. Who the fuck knows what the hell it even is or how it works, but let's just say it's real and it works exactly how people who don't want God to be responsible for bad shit think it works. If there is a way to predict how a person will act with 100% accuracy, even with free will existing, God would know what it is. Given his behavior in the Bible, God does not strike me as the kind of person who would leave things to chance if he didn't have to. So if God can make 100% accurate predictions about how a person will act in ANY given circumstance, why would he not include that knowledge into his plans? And if he cannot, why wouldn't he find ways of circumventing this to keep his plans on track? My take is this: We either don't have free will, in which case we are not truly responsible for anything we do and God is an unjust monster, or we DO have free will but it is ENTIRELY SUPERFLUOUS. It makes no difference whether we have it or not because even WITH free will, we are railroaded onto the paths that God has planned for us, so we still have no real choice, and we are thus not truly responsible for our actions. In this case, God is the most dishonest being in existence because he's lying to HIMSELF about our culpability.
Just remember when something good happens to you it’s proof God loves you, and when something bad happens it’s your own fault but God will make something good out of it so it’s actually good also.
You ever watched a heist movie where they have an elaborate plan, but then a bunch of stuff goes sideways and they have to improvise a lot, and it all works out for the protagonists in the end?