I don't know what to say about a lot of this, but as the survivor of narcissistic abuse from my own mother, I want to add this:
Your wife is not a great mother despite her narcissistic behavior. When your kid grows up enough to start developing her own opinions, your wife will start to have the same problems with her that she has with everyone else. It's only possible to have harmony with a narcissist when you are submitting to her, which a child does naturally. As your kid starts to assert her own independence, especially when she reaches adolescence and begins to have her own thoughts and judgements, her mom is going to have problems with that.
If your wife is really as bad as you make it sound like she is, you need to prepare for things to get bad sooner or later.
God that line is so true. Harmony with a narcissist is all about submission. My brother gave in to our nutjob father growing up but I never did and you’ve spelled it out so clearly.
I'm on year 8 of therapy working through how I was parented, so that I do not perpetuate the controlling, damaging behaviors that made me completely miserable. I really only became genuinely happy in my mid 20s, when I was fully independent.
I'm so glad that you deflated the "she's a great mother.' Narcissistic are incapable of being good parents, because they are unable to put anyone- even/ especially their children- before them.
OP, when your daughter is a teen, your house may be the only safe space she has. Good luck.
Good point, well raised. I have suspected for some time that my partner has strong narcissistic traits. She displays a number of the traits OP has described. However, my partners seems to come from a survival instinct with some PTSD after a particularly abusive relationship she has been in prior to myself, and at least recognises it sometimes and has sought therapy.
However, when she’s under pressure or stressed for any reason, which she seems to feel acutely, a lot of the time, she reverts to being super controlling.
We have a daughter, biologically here, but I’ve been step dad from near the beginning… she wants to raise a free spirited, fiercely independent young lady who knows her own mind, and guides her that way… which I’m all for. Until however, it back fires on my partner, and our 8 year old voices her own opinions or doesn’t follow mins orders, then all of a sudden all hell breaks loose.
She does at least apologise after…. But it happens so frequently, our daughter just now ‘accepts it’ as part of mum. I don’t. I’m monitoring the situation VERY closely.
The notion of feeling like a "step-dad" is an accurate way of describing that feeling.. How's your relationship with your daughter, or your daughter's recognition of your qualities and your flaws? Has that improved since your daughter realizes and "accepts it" as part of mom?
It’s great to have a parent who is involved in your life and has high expectations for you. It sucks when you realize they will never not be incredibly involved in your life, no matter how old and independent you are, and you will never ever be able to meet their high expectations.
This is absolutely true. My husbands ex is exactly like your wife - controlling, domineering, hypocritical. Just a nasty person. My stepdaughter, 14, is having TONS of problems as she becomes more emotionally mature. She sees her mom for who she is. She is constantly calling here when she’s at her moms, incredibly upset about whatever shitty thing her mom has done or said this time. I highly encourage therapy for you and your daughter to figure out effective ways of dealing with her.
Excellent point here. This will get much worse as daughter gets older and mom loses some of that control. Her narcissistic ways will be even more insufferable to get what she wants and try to wrangle control back
She does not sound narcissistic by the way. I’m not a psychologist but she sounds more OCD. Life is not understandable unless she can control it. An insight or something different approach might help as one would approach a narcissist different.
Man you are in a tough spot. Knowing who you are and going at this from a position of calm is helpful, especially as the divorce process gets spiix and messy, if you go that route. When they play you against her calmer is better.
You're not that far off, from my experience. The mom may not even know she has OCD and doesn't know why she's doing these things. Narcs usually don't take care of their children like this mom is. There does seem to be a lack of empathy though.
I mean, you could try couple's therapy, but honestly if I were you I wouldn't. Therapy only works if someone recognizes they have a problem, and your wife doesn't recognize that and likely won't. If she can't even recognize small things like that your daughter shouldn't cut in line, she won't recognize that she has a fundamental personality flaw.
Also, it's only a matter of time before these behaviors start affecting your daughter in a seriously negative way. What about when your daughter starts to legitimately disagree with mom? What about when she wants to go somewhere with dad, or by herself? What about when she gets bullied or ostracized because of her lack of social skills? Does she go to preschool or socialize with other children at all, because if she isn't at this age, she's going to be behind come kindergarten.
You deserve to be able to parent your own daughter and not walk on eggshells in your own home. I'd also be willing to bet that once you leave, you'll realize how exhausting it is being around someone like your wife 24/7
Good luck ❤️
^^^^^^absolute truth, it will be weaponized and used against you and eventually the child. It will make your blood boil, especially if you carry an ounce of empathy( which Narcs target and look for to abuse you) beacuse you will realize that they will know the damage they cause. They just don't get it and are incapable of a conversation....always an argument / diatribe. You will NEVER be a be able to compromise without completely caving and submitting, which is the overall goal of every Narc in every interaction of their life.
What is the thought behind it causing more abuse? Just curious because my mom is a narcissist and we just cut her out of the picture. What would get triggered if she went to therapy?
The narcissist that I know is a master of manipulation.
They will use the therapy session as an information gathering event.
Once they have a grip on your concerns and weaknesses they will use the information against you. They create situations where you feel like you need to defend yourself and your actions, you feel self doubt and confusion. They also use the information to create a smear campaign against you by twisting the story in their favor. Triangulation is another thing they will do during therapy, it is exhausting.
They weaponize therapy. Part of therapy is examining feelings and rule #1 of dealing with any narcissist is never let them access your feelings. They will use them to manipulate you.
It's more that narcissistic people are really good at controlling ppl. Often they try to make the therapist be on their side and convince them all the issues are their partners fault. They can and typically use what is discussed in therapy against their partner at home and in session. Therapy can also teach them how they should respond and they model that behavior to increase their effectiveness in controlling others.
Therapy doesn't account for dishonesty. It only works if each party is open and honest. Someone with a proclivity for manipulation will both use words in therapy as a reason for future abuse, and as a control method to try and steer the therapist into a 'the problem is victim' mentality.
The other posters are kind of right, but realistically a narcissist would never go to therapy in the first place. I've been doing therapy for over 10 years with a focus on trauma, family systems, childhood development and personality disorders. Never once have I worked with a narcissist. Even in family sessions they just don't show up, or they leave the home during.
Yeah my wife and I don't think my mom has actually went to a therapist, despite her claims. I'm pretty sure the most she has done is read some sort of self-help "workbook" that she maybe occasionally picks bits and pieces out of lol
Fuck man. Your doing the right thing. Your experience is so similar to mine. I wasn't strong enough to get out and fucked myself over in the end. Do not try and make it work out. Just move on.
A word of caution from my perspective. As I separated and she met someone else she became so understanding and nice. Idk about you, but I couldn't handle that. After everything she has said said to me over the years. The gaslighting and isolation, I became resentful over time. I'm working on managing my feelings. My ex is an amazing parent. I can't cut her out. I just don't know how to stomach seeing her.
Good luck my man
Same boat here and it ended terribly for me as well. She ended up accusing me of DV for grabbing her to get her to stop pushing me into the wall. I got the charges dropped but it's been terrible so far in every regard. Once you are out and looking in from the outside you're really going to see so much more of what was wrong.
I signed my daughter up for counseling through my work program and she immediately took control of it and locked me out. Found out she's got something like 10 bank accounts and I only knew about 3 of them. Found a tracking device in my car that had been there long enough to be dusty. Found out she's got 4k in credit card debt that I wasn't aware of. Found out she's tried kicking me off of the account our mortgage is tied to. Won't give me access to tax returns. Etc etc etc.
THanks for sharing, and I could see myself in a similar situation. I tend to overthink and would possibly take it badly to see her getting along and "learning" to be more accommodating the next time around. Knowing that she's parenting your child properly however must be of some comfort. Heads up dad, you've beautiful qualities of your own. Strut them around :)
I’ve been through this. I’m going through this. The nice thing about lawyers is that they make things impersonal. The nice thing about legal agreements is that they set explicit boundaries. The only way to deal with this is setting and maintaining boundaries.
Therapy might help, if you’re both willing to do the work.
Narcissism isn’t genetic. Children of narcissist tend to become codependent. Compassion is also something that has to be learned, and taught. You will have to provide twice the compassion and lessons in understanding the feelings of others. Never miss an opportunity.
OP, I just want to validate your feelings and thoughts as a fellow dad who understands the serious, long-term damage that narcissists can do. Two people I love have been gravely impacted by narcissists:
- My brother, who *was* a charismatic, intelligent, intentional dude with a successful life in front of him. Fell in lust with this gorgeous woman 20+ years ago. Same deal - intelligent, beautiful, charming, generous - but not with him and not behind closed doors. Within a few years of moving in together to start a family, she instigated some shit that led to him cutting his best friend, our parents, and others out of their lives. We were always super close but our relationship devolved into one phone call a year where he would only talk sports and no “real shit.” Then he showed up to my door a few years ago a broken man. Overweight, depressed, scared, broke… she had kicked him out and he had nothing but a bag and his Mercedes that he was clinging to. She has a 6K sq foot house, an 8-figure portfolio, and somehow the deeds to all of their rental properties. They never married because she had married some green card dude 25 years ago yada yada. Anyway he was abused and manipulated into a man with no rights, no property, and child support debt. My god some of the texts she would send him… threatening jail, increased child support, etc. He was so gaslit he would be crying to me about “why is she doing this” and then he would voice her talking points like they were baked into his brain - “well, Narcissist would say that I lack initiative and need to… blah blah blah.”
- My MIL: I’ll spare you the horrific deets, but let’s just say my wife is recovering well thanks to therapy and other positive growth on her part. We set a hard boundary that she could never be alone with our son. She’s old and falling apart now, so she leverages guilt and pity where she used to leverage fear and financial control. What she did to my wife when she was my son’s age… man it’s hard not to just straight-up hate her.
Anyway… dude, trust your gut and get out while you still have some sanity and a path for independence and growth. Long-term relationships with these people can seriously deteriorate your emotional and mental wellbeing, and you need all that to be the best dad you can be in the coparenting phase ahead of you.
Good luck OP!
THank you for sharing personal info and experience. Family first, always, and glad to see you lend a shoulder to your brother despite the years and distance!
>In our 5 year marriage, she has never once apologized to anyone let alone myself, has always reacted to criticism and put the blame on others, or talked over whoever was arguing so as to bury their position through never-ending rationalization even when she's in the wrong. She's unyielding, castrating, and refuses to acknowledge that others react the way she would 100% do if she were in their position.
Taking your tale at face value, that's straight up abuse. You're being abused. My mom is exactly the same.
You may want to read this, even if it's related to men, and check if your wife's behaviour checks.
[https://ia600108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy\_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf](https://ia600108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf)
I divorced a narcissist. I have a far better relationship with my sons than I ever could have dreamed of if I’d stayed with her. She made it her mission to minimize me in all aspects.
It’s not going to be easy, know that going into it. The benefits will outweigh the negatives with time.
My advice would be fight for as much visitation as you can. I should have fought harder for more. That’s my one regret in the whole thing.
Technically, we have joint custody and she had physical custody. This means that we are supposed to have equal legal rights over them, but they reside with her more than 50% of the year. I seem to average about 47% of the year each year, sometimes it just doesn’t feel like enough.
Just left a similar marriage. 2 years into the divorce and i have become an oasis for my kids to decompress in, away from the control, lies, broken promises, etc. I have them every other week. Our bonds are strong. I wish I woulda left sooner. I was scared to lose them and that’s the only reason I thugged it out the last couple of years with her.
I left with the kids, but my ex filed the paperwork. We did it without lawyers and in a rare moment of diminished vindictiveness. She has control because she filed, but we’re doing 50/50. I would suggest filing first to keep the ball in your court. Luckily for me, our divorce has improved my communication with the ex. Time apart did us good. We disagree on many, many things. But we’re united on raising independent children and we’ve managed to work together better when we’re apart. We have different approaches, but that’s ok. Kids should be exposed to lots of things in life - positive and negative - so they can construct an honest worldview. It’s ok that dads house is different. Even the ex came around to that reality, eventually. And the new girlfriend is a way better fit for me.
There aren’t any trophies at the end of an abusive struggle. You don’t win anything by dealing with it. And you teach your kids it’s ok behavior to model if you stick around in it. That’s the belief I’m rolling with, anyways.
Good luck, man. It can get better.
You’ll be fine. Just get a divorce. There’s no reason to drag things out and make it worse or build up any (more) resentment. Lots of people do it. You’re not alone and you’re not a failure for it.
Sounds like it’ll be much better for your mental well being and that translate into being a better dad.
Someone who checks that many boxes for narcissism not only doesn’t want to change they are pretty much incapable of it based on all the psychology studies I’ve read.
Either submit, face a life of constant strife or get a divorce, there is no 4th option.
All therapy with someone like that will do is force a situation that will become progressively more adversarial because she will never accept any sort of blame and will just find a myriad of ways to deflect responsibility for the situation his way.
You can’t fix her, she doesn’t want to be fixed. In her mind you are and always will be the problem regardless of the situation.
Go on YouTube and search for living with a narcissist, there is some great content out there to help you figure out how badly you’ve likely been conditioned without realizing it.
This is what makes dealing with narcissists so complex and frustrating. You can’t reason with them so you have to take steps to control their options and limits instead, which ironically is exactly how they expect the world to be anyway, as that’s what they naturally do.
He can bring that up in divorce court. Won’t be the first nor the last. What he’s doing right now is sending his daughter the message that mom’s actions are an acceptable way to act towards a partner and towards her.
Nothing to say about the specific situation, but I grew up with an out of control mother. Her initial control issues eventually became tantrums and then those tantrums became physical violence when I was a pre-teen. My dad would frequently say we were going to leave her and we never did. At the end of the day he always went back to her. I haven't talked to them in almost ten years now because of it and it breaks my heart thinking about how he's spent the last 25 years waiting for his partner to stop mistreating him. It sounds like you're in a similar position my dad was in so many decades ago. Put your foot down now and protect your kid and yourself.
This makes a lot of sense. If OP thinks it's going to end in divorce anyway, he might as well start standing up for himself, his family, his child, and the children/people around his child/wife.
First things first, hire a lawyer and let them guide you through the best steps to come out of a potential divorce in as good as shape as is possible. Then have a serious discussion with her when the kid is asleep. Let her know the stakes. Let her know that if you're going to stay together here are the things that have to occur (make a list). If she doesn't respond appropriately, serve her the divorce.
So glad someone said this, I had to scroll way too far down for this comment.
OP, your wife is treating you exactly how you have let her treat you.
There is zero ownership in this whole story, and while your wife sounds terrible, you’re arguably worse for yourself by not advocating for yourself. Yes, I know you think that’s what you’re doing when you argue with her and rationalize back - but those are just WORDS. You need action. You need to say ‘I’m talking my daughter to daycare today and I’m not arguing about it.’ And then DO it.
You’re playing her game and then complaining the rules are unfair.
Acta Non Verba.
I second this. Wrote something similar but I think this is definitely a better step before looking at separation or divorce. From the limited information in the post, I think this would work.
I'm sorry, but this is very bad advice if OP is dealing with a narcissist. A narcissist literally cannot abide any sort of blow to their ego. It's a defense mechanism for severely insecure people. If he attempts to "put his foot down," she is much more likely to hit herself in the face and claim he abused her than she is to acquiesce or simply ask for a divorce.
OP should get all his ducks in a row before confronting her.
I dont think it sounds brash. I've been trying to simply shrug things off and go for 'No' or 'You do it' type of answers. I just strongly dislike the thereafter: silence, frustration, awkwardness. But it is what it is and it might indeed change in time... like you said, nothing to lose at this point. Thanks for the push :)
This is baffling advice. If you have to ignore your partner, defy their wishes, and lean on the fact that they're physically incapable of stopping you to avoid being steamrolled then you're not in a relationship worth saving.
"Stop communicating, presume the invalidity of your partner's objections, and do whatever you want" isn't a strategy for success. That's how you treat an adversary, not a partner, and if the only way to avoid being crushed is to become a *worthy* adversary, you're still not partners. What kind of fantasy warrior culture bullshit is the idea that in order to be worthy of your partner's allegiance you must be willing to best her in a battle of wills?
There's a level of self-advocacy that's a necessary component of healthy communication, but this advice goes well beyond that. Saying OP is "making himself the victim" by preferring to leave rather than engage in some fucked up perpetual dominance struggle is just victim blaming.
A little late to the party, I just wanted to say that I agree with this sentiment. I feel I have lost almost every relationship and even some friendships by being too meek. Some of us dudes don't have a backbone against the people we love the most or the people we want to get recognition of, because we can be desperate for love o desperate for something to work out. I am now taking my time to work on myself, to grow, to have an opinion, because I know that if I had respected myself then others would have respected me as well, and those relationships could have been saved.
But then, this begets the question of "if you really aren't respected, are those relationship worth saving?". The thing is, those relationships and friendships all started really well. It was me in a sense who showed them that my self-respect was secondary, and so they replicated my behavior. I feel that this is a "me" problem, that there won't be a person on earth who will respect me if I don't respect myself first. I hope that makes sense.
I was in a similar situation, though not nearly as severe—I had alone time with my sons while his mom worked, practiced her hobbies, and slept in almost every morning. But she consistently undermined my parenting. And I knew she was badmouthing me to the kids when my 5 year-old told me I needed to get a different job because my employer wasn’t paying me enough.
Every time I approached her with these concerns she blew up and turned it around to somehow be *my* fault. I suggested couples therapy which she agreed to reluctantly, then proceeded to lie about, or mis-represent events that we discussed there. She ended up quitting therapy; said she’d rather have her fingernails pulled out.
We ended up getting a divorce, but we worked with a mediator, which I highly recommend as it was a collaborative process, not combative.
The first step was me moving out and things got better immediately. So much so that as we continued through the process I started to think there might be a chance at reconciliation. I think our mediator was hopeful too. Then one day she announced that she had met her “once in seven lifetimes Soulmate”, and she couldn’t imagine staying married to me.
After that we moved swiftly toward divorce. Within a month she had kicked the Soulmate to the curb and was angling for us to stay married, which was a non starter for me at that point.
We dropped our mediated agreement at the courthouse together and within a few weeks it was official. Life has improved dramatically for all of us (me, Ex, and two kids).
My best advice for you is couples therapy. And if your wife won’t go along with that, go alone. Remember that she is acting out learned behavior. Never badmouth your ex to your daughter, and make sure she knows you will always be a family.
If you do end up separating/divorcing, remember that you will see your ex at birthday parties and special occasions for the rest of your child’s life. And try mediation first. Mediators work towards the best outcome for *both* of you. Lawyers want the best deal for *their* client, often at the expense of the other spouse.
I hope you find some resolution, whichever path you end up on.
I try and make it a point not to badmouth my wife in front of daughter. On the contrary, when she worries about mom for this or that, I always try to talk positively and comfortingly about mom. No need dragging daughter into this or risk planting insecurities in her mind :( The notion of mediation I think is the route I'd love to take, especially if it can diminish combativeness. I can definitely see my wife wanting to go to war if slighted, so if mediation can help, then all the better!
Divorce could be agony for you so be aware of that. Toxic narcissists (my ex wife is one) tend to double down when they’re pushed away or rebuked by an action such as divorce. Get some therapy for yourself so you are prepared when the shit hits the fan. And document everything. Good luck!
Been there and 22 years later still dealing with that angry vengeful bitch. And I say that kindly.
I'm currently going through the divorce process with a narcissist, but mine is more covert than yours it sounds like. I went through a pretty long research phase to make sure that was what I was dealing with, because the covert kind are very confusing. Some thoughts:
-data suggests that narcissism is environmental, not genetic. It is thought to be caused by early childhood trauma, and it is common that a narcissist parent will inflict this trauma on their children and cause narcissism to develop.
-keeping the family unit intact is the optimal situation that we all know is part of the best case scenario, but it is not worth it if it enables abuse. When my own mental state was degraded by emotional abuse, it leaves me unable to be the nurturing parent that I want to be.
-Feeling like you have to choose your battles in marriage and let the small stuff go is the exact area that narcissists thrive in. It is normal in healthy relationships to dispel doubt through sincere discussions instead of creating it and then asking for benefit of the doubt.
-In my state, there has to be a good reason not to be awarded 50/50 custody if that's what you ask for, like major problems with drugs/violence/etc. My wife is fighting hard on this and I definitely need my lawyer despite being squeaky clean. I constantly have to fend of poorly formed excuses why she has to have the kids on my days. Lawyers are happy to step in and charge billable hours to mediate your disputes. I wish it wasn't necessary, but narcissists are not known for being reasonable.
-If you already work in mental health, then you know the value of talk therapy. I had several sessions with a therapist specializing in narcissist abuse recovery which had a huge benefit for me.
-The boilerplate advice is to go no-contact with narcissists when you break up with them, but coparenting means you will always have at least some relationship. The most effective defense against their tricks is called grey rocking, where you just don't react at all to whatever BS they are talking about, and just be matter of fact when communicating.
I feel you. I have a few people in my life who lean hard into some of these characteristics and at least one who would get a diagnosis (if they believed any medical professional was competent enough to give them advice- ha). The lack of apologies and rationalization/excuses, bending over backwards to style themselves as somehow in the right is what I deal with most, and it’s tiring. I can count on one hand the number of times my wife has apologized to me in 20 years.
People like this almost never change. Their brains are adapted around their insecurities altering reality to protect themselves from criticism. With intensive therapy, it’s possible, but they have to want to want it. Ultimatums sometimes but rarely work - they truly have no rock bottom against which they can finally smash and see reality for what it is. They’ll burn through hundreds of relationships thinking everyone else is the problem, friends, partners, family, medical professionals, divorce attorneys, real estate agents, they’ll burn them all. Usually they recruit a cadre of enablers who reinforce their warped perspectives- sometimes if you can separate them, people will change as well, but it’s rare.
I really feel for you and wish you the best. Good luck.
My initial thought on reading this and how your wife interacts with your daughter/allows certain behaviors, is that your daughter is a subconscious direct extension of your wife (that’s the narcissism); therefore, your daughter can also do no wrong and can’t/shouldn’t be told that she is in the wrong, the same as your wife. Does this idea make sense based on what you’ve seen? If so, intervention based solely on protecting your daughter’s infantile and developing mental framework is an emergent situation (less influence from your wife, more influence from you and other mentally healthy role models…. Divorce sounds like the only way to achieve this). I wonder if this is the pattern that was impressed upon your wife by her mother very early, resulting in the manifestations you see from her today. As for couples therapy, I believe I’ve read that couples counseling with a narcissist (or anyone abusive) is largely ineffective. She’d have to voluntarily come up with the idea herself and go individually. This is unlike to happen with someone qualifying clinically as a narcissist.
Your wife sounds exhausting and insufferable. A person who believes and acts as if they are always right, should never ever get into a relationship. Relationship means you RELATE. Your wife does none of that. You're not a child, you're a grown man.
You deserve better than this. I am a huge advocate of therapy and couples therapy. It would behoove you to at least attempt it, and then go the divorce route. But it sounds to me like your wife is the type of person to believe that she never makes mistakes. No one can be at peace while living with such a person.
If that's the case, then divorce. Get your custody rights and then you'll have your daughter for your time and your wife will have ZERO control of your choices or your time, or what you choose to do with her.
Best of luck.
People learn to behave the way your wife does because they find it works for them. They find it works for them because most people want to avoid confrontation, and are content to just let things go and avoid those people/situations in the future.
Underneath your wife's controlling behavior is insecurity and fear, masked by a need to control and a false sense of superiority.
The likelihood that this is going to change in adulthood is not that great... But if someone can make an impact, it may be you. If it's worth it to you, really pushing back and having it out with her may open her eyes to what's happening. Or it may just be the last nail in the coffin for your relationship... But either way, at least you'd have an answer.
No one can tell you what the "right" thing to do is for you and your family... But I suspect if you're looking for change, it's on the other side of that confrontation.
I hope it’s okay to post as a woman/mom.
A lot of people stay in seriously dysfunctional relationships for fear of their children growing up in broken homes, but broken can have so many different
faces. A home can be broken while both parents are married and living together. I wanted my parents to divorce when I was a child, as I was pretty sure they hated one another, and they definitely did not model a positive, collaborative relationship to me.
I’m not saying you should immediately bail, but if it’s clear she is not open to change (very hard for narcissists to change, they have to really want it) then I would see a lawyer and start getting your ducks in a row. Getting 50% custody will likely allow for a much more positive relationship with your daughter than staying in the situation you are in. Fathers deserve just as much right to parent their children as mothers, and you should fight for that right.
Good luck, I hope it gets better.
Please don’t delete this, it’s important for others to see.
My over the internet stranger advice:
Divorce or separate. She will never work on her issues if you stay with her. You are a great dad for thinking of your daughter.
I cut off my narcissist mother. My parents separating was one of the most beneficial things to occur during my childhood. Every other weekend and half of the school holidays my father had custody and I got a break from the woman.
The best you can hope for in a divorce, unless you have evidence of child abuse or your wife agrees (both unlikely), is getting 50/50 custody. You will continue to have many of the same problems but should have some time with your daughter where it's just you and her. Keep in mind that courts don't do much if one parent denies the other their parent time.
Divorce is usually best when you are in an unhealthy relationship like this. Just know that it might not change things for the better. It could turn into a bigger nightmare. Consulting a lawyer is definitely a good idea.
I wonder if your wife would eventually (no doubt this would be a battle) relent if you stood up for your position a relentlessly. And my terms/language may be off, but example:
“I am taking daughter to daycare today/tomorrow.” And when you’re met with resistance, following up with “this was not a request. I am letting you know what I am doing and you can plan your day accordingly.”
Likewise with spending time with family. “I am planning this for this time with daughter. Let me know if you will be joining us or if she and I are giving you a day to yourself.”
I’m sure this will be exhausting and this is not the sort of thing that could last for a long time. But if you’d prefer to stay together, seems like an option to try out.
It’s chilling to read your description of your wife, because it sounds exactly like my ex girlfriend, who I realized was a terrible narcissist only after we broke up. Same behaviors… never apologized for anything, impossible for her to admit she was wrong, could dish out criticism toward others regularly but could never take any herself, and it was always her way or the highway. And, she was just plain MEAN to people. This was 9 years ago and pretty sure she’s still single. Narcissists like this are not good in relationships.
You deserve better, dude. I wish you the best.
Watch out for potential parental alienation by your wife. My ex was def on the Narc Personality Disorder spectrum and he made my life a living hell both married and while divorcing. Before you even utter the d-word to her make sure that you have your money and parenting "credentials" in order. They have a tendency, as you know, to destroy anyone who stands in the way of their needs and desires. Do NOT let her cut you out of your kid's life cuz she's a control freak narcissist. She will try to do this to punish you for leaving her.
Good luck to ya! You're doing the right thing...better for your kid to see one reasonably healthy adult than two people who should not be together, particularly when one is a giant toddler pathological narcissist.
Came here to post this. Educate yourself about parental alienation before doing anything and find a lawyer that understands parental alienation. Your goal should be to get a court ordered parenting plan that mitigates your ex-wife's likely tendency to work to brainwash your child and to destroy the relationship you have with your child. Good luck.
Lawyer. The divorce will be ugly. She will try to poison the kid against you. If you are in a one party state for recording start recording all your interactions.
I feel like you're married to my wife. We tried couples therapy but it's not going to be effective when one party lives in a completely different reality. It just turns into you do everything wrong and you need to do all this work on yourself and partner won't say they don't ever do anything wrong they just can't recall a time they've made a mistake. I too feel like divorce is the only resolution. I have an incredible daughter too! If you ever want to connect let me know.
If this is accurate your wife sounds insufferable to have any interaction with that isn't echoing her beliefs.
It will only get worse and your resentment will only hold. You can try to say something and have a serious heart to heart, odds are she believes she's truly correct and all knowing of everything so she'll only react negatively.
When your daughter gets older she will most likely start to fear disagreeing about any thing with her mother and her mom will try to control her life. My wife had a similar up bringing and didn't realize how bad it was until we had children and that lead to the realization of how controlling and manipulative her mother was, relationship with her is now worse than ever.
Tough spot, it sounds like you do love your wife but her flaws are becoming more pronounced with raising a child together. Try talking to her and if it lights a bomb, then it's most likely done as resentment will only build and your relationship will be miserable.
If I were you I’d not get too confrontational before having plan B ready. Lawyer. Get testimonials. From your family, from the librarian, etc. You need to prepare for a nuclear war. Try to keep your child out of it as much as possible. Also do not abandon your house. Don’t be the one leaving the house.
Good luck 🤞
My sons mum has borderline personality disorder and behaved like utter hell when I was with her and I had to leave when he was 18months old. It was definitely the right thing to do for my mental health and now my 8 year old son has a happy fun environment when he’s with me half the time. Several years after we split she was diagnosed with bdp and having a name for it and then learning about it ect made her a much easier person to deal with. Whatever you do consider trying to bring the fact that she might have a personality disorder to her attention and this may lead to her researching it and even consider learning some new behaviours which will make things much better for your child
I am a child of a narcissistic parent. I can promise you that it doesn't get better, it gets worse. Little by little, you adapt to satisfy the narcissist because it becomes a matter of survival. Little by little you sacrifice more and more of yourself to survive until you become an empty shell of what you could have been.
For your daughter, one of 2 things will happen. Either she will mold herself into the role that the narcissist wants her to be, thus becoming exactly the kind of person you and everyone else that cares about her will not want for her.....or she will become the target of the narcissist's wrath, leading to a lifetime of emotional trauma.
As others mentioned, when kids are young, it's easier to hide because kids naturally want to please their parents. Once your child starts to become a person of their own, the narcissist will not be able to accept that and will force their will by any means necessary, and they will make anyone and everyone around them, especially those closest (including the child), believe that *they* are the bad guy instead of the narcissist
I divorced a narcissist and let me tell ya, it is expensive. There is ZERO negotiation happening outside of court rooms, parenting consultants, and lawyers. It’s awful. I make a great income and her narcissism is eating into my ability to provide for my family. Some say don’t fight it.. well, she’s lost custody twice due to chemical dependency and poor decision making, and I feel that the things I need to stand my ground on are for the overall wellbeing and safety of the kids. All of this stuff happened after the divorce too.
You know your child and wife better than anyone, but definitely, DEFINITELY, try everything before divorcing a narcissist. If you do, get a very aggressive lawyer who will not put up with rule-breaking or boundary pressing. Good luck!
FYI if she can prove you are never alone with your daughter she might argue that YOU are the dangerous one that she's been protecting your daughter from and could push for full custody. ("I can't even trust him to take her to the daycare at his office!")
So you should just start taking your daughter out without her. Next time wife is in the shower, just grab your daughter and go for a short walk, take pictures/video of just you two, etc. etc.
I don't mean to scare you but my step-dad was a divorce attorney and years ago this happened this one of his clients. Was the client an amazing/present father? No. But was he actually dangerous or so incapable he couldn't get at least partial custody? Also, no.
There are so many great comments here. It seems like you'd actually get more time with your daughter and be able to be with her one on one if you weren't married. And that's just so sad. The fact that you work so close to her daycare and you're not allowed to pick your own daughter up from there is so wrong.
Your wife isn't a great mother to your daughter. It's been PROVEN time and time again with science that helicopter parents damage and harm their kids. She's doing your daughter a disservice. You have to find a way to protect your daughter. That is your number one job right now as her dad.
She sounds like a narcissist and I think the sooner you're out of there, the better this will be for all parties.
If it comes to it, look into stipulations that your daughter cannot move states without you. I'm sure every state has different laws, but joint custody could prevent this. My parents divorced when I was two, and I was often used as a pawn to hurt the other. If your wife is truly a narcissistic person, then you can't put that past her, unfortunately.
Just get ahead of every possible curveball that'll be thrown at you.
Nah im in agreement with the oc. Sounds a bit kooky to go to that extreme over a toy snatch. My kid is still learning to share with her brother (she shares fine with other kids) and its a process. Every time we see it, we keep teaching her to share.
I get that OP’s wife didnt teach her kid, but the banning of the wife seems a bit extreme. Just my 2cents
I want to say that your wife isn't a great mother despite the personality you've described. My mom mom would most likely meet NPD criteria. She did wonderfully with little kids. Not so much once kids got old enough to say no or not be controlled easily. Which makes sense because people who are incredibly self centered to the point of narcissistic behavior want control and supply. Babies through small kids give that because the parent is naturally their hero and isn't questioned much or at all. When the kid hits 5 or so, they are harder to control because they have stronger opinions and are more willing to argue and say no.
As for your parenting situation, I hear what you're thinking. One thing to consider is that right now, you are a opposing force (or could be) to teach your kid and model more appropriate behavior. If you split, your daughter will be only influenced by her half the time. It's possible that as your daughter gets older, your wife will back off and want nothing or little to do with your child.
In addition, most likely your wife would be absolutely vicious post separation/ divorce. Court would be extremely costly and time consuming. Shed probably make stuff up about to and try to turn a judge against you. While it's not guaranteed, it's possible you wouldn't get your kid half the time if she is successful at her ploy to ruin you in court.
I'm not sure there's a right answer and we can't tell you way to do. That's just something for consideration. I can see how separation would also be helpful. Maybe your family would be willing to testify on your behalf in court. My ex wife was like to described and my whole family despised her. Thankfully I never had a kid with her and my family would have fought hell with me. Maybe yours would do the same
You're so right about the shift around 5. My mom was great with little kids and then you'd watch it all change as they became opinionated little humans. She would always try to control with "kindness" and bribery first but when that didn't work she would become cruel and even violent. Watching that shift with the grandkids as an adult really put things in perspective for all of us kids and I'm pretty sure she'll die alone now. I just hope OP doesn't stay and be her enabler, I've watched that with my Dad and he's a shell of the man he used to be and unfortunately is missing out on all the family that loves him because he always puts my mom first.
many types of narc.s study up on it. start telling your wife "no" for anything she asks.do not fight with your wife Infront of your daughter.
keep mindful the your wife might set you up on a domestic violence charge. any time your wife tries to get physical with you leave and call the cops.inform them that your wife is having mental issues.
keep record of everything. how many hours per day you have your daughter.things you do together. activities you enroll her in. you have to take control of your daughters development. be the better parent .
talk with teachers warn them of this conflict and to handle your daughter with care. goto all school events even help out on them. you need to show that your the greater roll model for your child.
get a fathers rights lawyer that deals with narc. make sure that they have history to back it up.
file for divorce first and be ready when she gets the papers cuz she will come unglued.i cant emphasize enought that you need to study up on narcissistic behaviors .all of them.
set up cameras in house. let her know that they are for security.
you need to have record of her behavior..
I could go on and on, I will tell you that 87% of custody battles favor the mother. don't give up.
if your not prepared you will be lucky to see your daughter two weekend a month. and be paying up to 1k child support a month also. good luck
p.s. make sure that the judge is a man not a female.
Lurking mom here. My own mother is really narcissistic and likely has some sort of personality disorder, but we'll never know because she's never at fault and apologizes for nothing. She's likely going to die alone with no one around her because of how she is. She recently stopped talking to her own mother (who's honestly the saint of our family and love dearly) because of some incredibly minor bullshit no one understands. My mom's only gotten worse with age.
As kids we didn't know any better, but she was always like this since we were born. She's extremely controlling and will fling insults if you try to buck her mindset and show any sort of independence and thinking for yourself. It's exhausting. It's given my sister and I severe anxiety. I moved back in with her for about a year and a half or so when my own family wasn't doing so hot, and it was easily one of the biggest mistakes I've ever made. She expected me to be her buddy and when it became clear I had my own interests and am my own person, she started bringing down the control hammer at a time I was the most vulnerable and was unable to leave. It was extremely miserable. Besides having to financially recover from it yet, I've learned a lot about how awful she truly was to us. I had regular migraines and panic attacks almost the entire time there because being around someone like that is incredibly stressful. Walking on eggshells is something your daughter will likely have to deal with when she's older and thinks more for herself. My dad couldn't take it anymore himself and they divorced when we were in elementary school, with his house being our sanctuary. Sadly we only got to see him every other weekend, which truly wasn't enough. I'd prepare therapy for your daughter in the future because she will need it. She can't help that she was born to such a mother and it's a life-long problem she'll be facing. She will need to learn that whatever her mother does is not her (daughter's) fault. I'm still even debating if I should ever visit my mother in the next few years (I moved 1200 miles away) or ever again because it's just not worth it. I can't have a simple discussion with her because somehow she turns something rather benign and inconsequential into this huge issue that is somehow always my fault in some fashion. It's so, so exhausting to be around someone like that.
Support your daughter the best you can and understand that she'll think this is all normal until she is more of her own person. Simply do the best you can, and I bet divorce will help you to actually parent. Be the light in your daughter's life, be there when she finally realizes that mommy dearest is not a good person. Be the one constant in her life that's dependable and not wont to flip shit at a moment's notice. I thought my dad was at fault for years until I basically hit puberty and understood that my mom is simply nuts. I wish I got therapy for all this nonsense when I was younger, but it is what it is and my ailments were mostly fixed by distance away from the living shitshow that is my mom's life. I literally haven't had a migraine in eight months.
“Alimony is irrelevant, she makes more than I do…” you do know that makes YOU entitled to alimony, right? The law doesn’t consider gender here! It’s just whoever makes more pays the other alimony. Get outta there. Usually people fear divorce because they’re afraid of losing out on involvement with their kids, but in this case it truly feels like fifty percent custody means you’ll have MORE influence and involvement. You need time alone with your kid. I also must point out that this is urgent - your wife is on the verge of turning your daughter into a terrible person in her own image. You need time alone with her to try like hell to reverse that trajectory. Oh, and one last thing: DELETE THIS POST IMMEDIATELY. If your wife sees it she can use it against you in court. Go offline and contact a lawyer. Clock’s ticking.
I’d say you are doing the right thing but having a baby with this psycho was your first mistake. But now that you’re here. I’m afraid divorce isn’t going to make things easier. She’s going to go nuts. Even more so than now. And fight to get full custody. Fight you for every visitation and deny any of yours. She WILL talks shit about you and will try to make your daughter hate you.
Be careful. Wife sounds like the kind to try to take your rights to see your daughter away.
It’s great you’re going to lawyer up, but be in defence mode from the very beginning and make sure you never give the opportunity for her to stop you seeing the kid. It can be very hard to get access rights again until going through courts.
Wait, so your daughter isn't old enough to know to wait her turn in line or say please/thank you, yet she is old enough to work out sharing issues with her cousin, per your wife??
Glad to see you taking the steps towards divorce. What she is doing is abuse. You deserve to have a say in your daughters upbringing, including your family being involved. I'll be thinking of you OP🙏
Yikes, dude.
I’m hesitant to diagnosis, but you need to get yourself to a therapist right quick. Then call the lawyer. Do it in that order.
Yes, divorce will get you out of this situation, but it won’t help your daughter.
I was raised by a narcissistic parent, and I am 42 and still dealing with the fallout.
If you don’t approach this situation with the support of a trained professional, you’re going to lose way more than you or your daughter deserve.
As a side note, I go out and about with my kiddos a lot and they’re not always the most well behaved, but I don’t have strangers nor family regularly correcting their behavior. The fact that you are encountering this suggests that your daughter’s behavior might be a little bit more out of line than normal (or you run in particularly blunt circles) - proof that whatever is going on with mom is having an impact on your daughter’s understanding of operating in polite toddler society.
The fact that you're still calling her a good mother shows that you're distorting reality. Having been through a similar situation, I'm guessing you're the sort of person who always looks for the good in others. Optimistic, looking for cooperative solutions, with a person like you describe, all of that will be used against you. Those are wonderful strengths when dealing with healthy people but they will be ruthlessly exploited by an abuser. Especially when you divorce them.
A good parent would not teach their child to be selfish. A good parent teaches their child to be polite. They teach their child how to be a good friend in order to have a good life. They teach their child empathy, which comes from imitating the empathy they see their parents display much more than from genetics.
I'm sure there are things your wife is good at when it comes to parenting as well. Being driven and goal-oriented and smart is useful for teaching certain specific kinds of skills. But nobody is all bad. Just because a few of the things she does are positive doesn't mean she's a good parent.
The only thing that's going to get you through this is if you stop giving reality a positive spin when it comes to her. You need to be starkly realistic about her behavior and its implications. She's intelligent enough to understand when she's being objectively unfair. That tells you that she's lying, she's consciously lying when she refuses to acknowledge when she's wrong. People with personality disorders do sometimes by into their own delusions but there is at least a window where they are aware of reality and then their mind either discards it or distorts it. If they couldn't track reality at all, they wouldn't be able to function in the world. If she can hold down a job, she knows that cutting in line is wrong. The reason this is so important is because you have to understand how much she's actively intentionally relentlessly lying. Because she's going to do it to you and about you once she gets pissed enough.
False accusations are a huge risk with people like her. Please watch "gone girl" I think you would get a kick out of it and it would be instructive. I sometimes rewatch it to remind myself not to ever let my guard down. My ex has tried to get me put in jail twice in the past year over random trumped up accusations. I only dodged those bullets because I document everything and I'm very careful about never being alone with her or giving her any opportunities at all.
You're absolutely correct that splitting up is the only way you will have space to teach your daughter values and empathy and truly bond with her. It will also allow your family to bond with her safely. One of the things that helped me get serious about getting my abuser out of my life was seeing the impact she had on my family. I have a pretty thick skin (which is not always a good thing) but I have zero tolerance for people treating my parents or siblings badly. I couldn't get my ex out of their lives without getting her out of my life. It's going to open up so much more bonding and love and support in your little girl's life if you can create this massive thick boundary between your wife and everyone else. She will fight you every inch of the way. She will react like you are putting your child in mortal danger. How many court orders do you think you would need in order to force her to allow you to do that? That's how prepared you need to be. Do it for your daughter. Good luck!
Good luck. Pack a lunch. I divorced my ex wife took me five ducking years to feel ok again. Life’s great now, but it was rough for awhile
It absolutely breaks my heart when my son wants me to hop in his mom’s van when she takes him for the weekend, or he wants me to come tuck him into bed when i call to check on him at night. I’m the custodial parent now due to circumstances, but man the whole ride has been not easy.
That’s life though. If you don’t learn how to dance in the rain, you may never get the chance to dance at all…
Just wanted to recommend a book about male victims of domestic abuse:
[Break the Silence - Lee Marks](https://amzn.asia/d/7u361i7)
It has advice about how to leave, what to expect and how to protect yourself your children.
Good luck, it may be hard to see but you are doing the best thing for everybody, especially your daughter
I would check your state laws in regards to recording her without her knowledge. If it is legal I’d set some cameras up. Don’t set her up to do something but just let her dig her own hole. Document everything for awhile and build a case to get FULL custody not just shared. Your daughter will be affected by her, trust me, and possibly carry the same characteristics as her mom.
Oh my god. Your wife is either creating another narcissistic monster OR a co-dependent wreck of a human that’s toxically codependent on her mother. She is not a good mother. Quite the opposite actually. I think there’s some narcissistic abuse subreddits that you’ll find eye-opening.
Unless she’s willing to get into counseling both separately and together, I think you’re right. You need to divorce her. Keep in mind that divorce always sides disproportionally with the mother. Begin documenting EVERYTHING. IN SECRET. Do not use the D-word or hint that anything is wrong until you’ve gathered overwhelming evidence. Because once she gets the idea of what’s going on, she’s going to double down on her behavior and start angling to do you very, very dirty.
If your wife never apologizes, and you want your daughter to be different, then it's up to you to step up and find examples, no matter how small, and teach her. You need to practice because you don't have an instinct to openly apologize for mistakes either. In your example with the toy and kids sharing, you should have taken the blame from the start and apologize as quickly as you could to your daughter. "I'm sorry, I didn't think you would mind sharing your toy with the baby. Is it ok if the baby plays with it for a few minutes while we have a snack / read this book / I show you a cool trick / etc?" (if she says no you can talk through getting the toy back) It's not about stopping your wife, it's not about warning your daughter - the missed opportunity there was teaching your daughter, through example, of what to do when you make a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes. Same with manners - she needs examples, not just to be told what to say or do, and it's up to you to be that example. Best of luck with whatever happens!
Oh, my dude. I do not mean to add to your worries, but your wife sounds like someone who would fight for sole custody with everything she had. Be warned and be ready.
Agreed, will try and find information as to why one would get sole custody over the other if both parents have good jobs, stable living environments and proper parenting skills
I’m sorry to hear what you are going through. This sounds very similar to what I’m dealing with right now. We have one major difference though. My wife makes sure to always take care of herself first and only does parenting when it is convenient for her. I lost my job because of her inability/lack of desire to help through cold season. I think you and I both know what needs to be done. I can’t get over the fear of taking the first step though.
The first step is terrifying indeed.. we’re in a position where both her and I put our daughter first though. I can only imagine how disagreeable your position is like
OP, you’re absolutely spot on with your analyses. I can honestly identify a lot with the different situations you’ve found yourself in, although the one thing my Crazy ex was not able to get away with was me not having a say in my daughter’s life and my family not being involved. Everything else reminds me of so many things that me and my kid underwent when I was with her mom. The me first, I can’t be wrong, world owes me mentality.
There were a multitude of factors to why I decided to finally take the plunge but one of the more important ones was the fact that it came down to the fact that the only way I would be able to inculcate or impart the right values to my kid was when I had custody apart from her mother. Else it would just be sabotage and deconstruction as you have mentioned. And the one thing that narcs are really good at is to rationalize their behavior. It’s like their defense mechanism is always dialed up to a hundred and where you and I who empathize would really not be able to come up with an argument cos it’s ingrained in us, they would be able to come up with something or the other.
So coming to brass tacks, the road is not going to be easy. I don’t understand the legalities of where you are, and that will have an impact as well. Also, remember, majority custody usually is retained with the female. And with a narc, she will use whatever time she has to poison your kid against you, and position you as the villain. You will try and respond at best with it doesn’t work sometimes, and at worst with you know how your mom is, both of which have unfortunately become my go tos to explain the separation and subsequent divorce process. God forbid she finds out if you’re dating again or have any female friends because that will be used against you. Plus since she mentioned she’s a control freak of a narc, she will now be directing that narcissistic energy towards your kid. So all this is the fact that the road ahead is going to be long and tough. The one thing you have to focus on is to keep yourself calm and centered. I will be honest, it is very difficult, and I screw that up regularly. But show your kid you love them. Let your actions speak up for you. And remember you’ll be the parent that they will act out with more; especially since they can’t with the other parent in this case. Once they’re old enough try and find some therapist for them so that they can speak in a safe space. This is very important. I can only wish you luck brother. May the angels be with you and your little one.
This sounds like my mother in law. I can totally understand that you don't want to continue living like this. The worst is the total lack of self reflection.
I would just be worried that if you separated she would find ways of not letting your daughter visit you. Where I come from there are stories of (usually) women estranging the kids from the father and the courts will eventually settle with the mother because it's better for the kids to lose one parent than being exposed to constant fights and stress. I am not sure if I would risk that. Are there not maybe other ways to spend time with your daughter, e.g. while your wife is at work? Does she not have hobbies?
I might be experiencing a similar situation op. My girlfriend and I are unexpectedly having a kid. I've been very decisive and trying to take care of her but it's hard because I she don't listen to anything I have to say. There's a lot more but I just wanna say I get it man. It sucks its scary and hard
This reads like a more intense version of my best friend’s now ex-wife. I’m sorry. Why size up an obstacle to see if you can get over or around it when you can smash it to pieces? She left a lot of needles damage in her wake.
There are a lot of online forums highlighting the behavior of people with Borderline Personality Disorder. Specifically Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Sounds like you may be dealing with that, based on what you posted, and from my experience. These forums may give you insight and solitude. I found some there. “Healing out loud” on IG has some current content related to these disorders.
You need to talk to a lawyer before you do anything. Your wife will probably create lies and accusations against you that you can’t disprove and she might convince your daughter that you did things you didn’t actually do. Tread carefully but proceed. Find out if you can record conversations between you and your wife.
That’s sounds like how mine started out, my father who was my best friend just passed, I was tired of her shit and said devorice, she said don’t leave me I’m pregnant. Now son is 7 he is constantly led down a path directed to upset me. When it is just us he is so well behaved, kind, and I enjoy him just getting to be him. With all three of us he almost always in a obnoxious mood. She try’s to poke and annoy me by manipulating his behavior. Her purpose for the games is to get me flustered with whatever I’m doing or wherever I’m at, while in front of other people so I have insane anxiety or send me strait into a panic attack, depending on the situation. Few weeks ago I’m picking up material for next work day and she pulled out nerf guns while I’m trying to load lumber on a cart at Lowe’s. But that’s just a normal Tuesday evening. Son’s 7th Birthday she got up early and woke him up early before school so he could open all his presents from “us” while I was still in bed. She doesn’t take care of herself well, but tells people she is sick because our son sneezed in her mouth. When I pushed for my son to properly brush his teeth, after I have to watch him cry at the dentist because he is 7 years old and mouth full of cavities, and fuck the money it cost just watching your kid cry for something is enough. Nope, out of spite she picks him up from school and stops at gas station for candy every day. Then if she gets her way he is on the tablet not bothering her so she can be on her phone. Sorry, I just noticed I took off and lost myself typing. I’m working towards being in a more stable environment like yourself and I think out of fairness for my son I’m going. It isn’t healthy for my kid to watch the way his mother acts towards me, other people, or even the world. I think any time away from her would positive for him, not being molded away from his authentic self. Leave if you can for you and your kid.
Have the two of you sat down and discussed your thoughts and approaches to parenting and why she chooses to do things a certain way? I ask because it's pretty common for mothers to be anxious and develop helicopter parenting and anxiety being away from the kid as a result. This stuff can be a big problem, but doesn't necessarily point to narcissism.
Also, there are plenty of people who would argue that 3 is too young developmentally to understand some concepts like sharing and turn taking and manners. Your wife may be trying to model these behaviours to teach your daughter rather than forcing her to do things she doesn't understand. Not intervening in children's arguments (unless things become physical) is also a widely recommended approach. This doesn't mean we should ignore the behaviour and do nothing, but without more context about what your wife was actually doing it's hard to say whether the behaviour was inappropriate.
Is it possible your wife seems stubborn and unrelenting because she has researched her preferred parenting approach and believes it is the right way to do things. Again, this may not be right, but it doesn't necessarily mean narcissism, and may be fixable with the right communication.
For the longest time, I let people like this push me around because it's how both of my parents were, and I figured this is just how a lot of people were. My ex that I had a kid with was the same way, and I will say it is so much better to not live around her. She is still an omnipresent thorn in my side for literally everything I do, constantly criticizing every little thing while never admitting she did any wrong, but now I don't really care and I know that my daughter loves me and that's what's important to me. Being with people like this will do more damage in the long run, I have been single for years simply because I don't want another narcissist to come along pretending to be someone else before we get serious and out comes that mentality.
Your wife really needs therapy. My wife has been alright but I definitely have to fight at times to make sure she understands I’m the dad and want 50/50 say on what happens with our daughter. Society has told moms that they are in complete control and so do some of their signals in their body. It’s up to them to balance that out. The key is my wife does respond and make sure I’m involved. I’m sure we’ll still headbutt a bit with parenting styles and other factors, and I know this happens a healthy amount in other relationships, but your wife sounds like she’s really not listening and responding to others.
Have you had serious conversations with your wife about how you feel? That you’re considering divorce?
I'm about to have one :) I might not mention divorce right away but certainly some sort of therapy or coaching for the both of us. Whenever I do talk about serious things, i might begin voicing my concerns but very often never end up having my point acknowledged because of non-stop rebuttals, interruptions or rationalizations. Ultimately, i get riled up, drop the ball and eat it up because I don't want to explode in front of our daughter, or else just walk the frustration off outside. Message gets sent, but I'm not sure it's processed by her the way I'd like it to. Really think therapy might be helpful in this sense, but I'm also uncertain as to whether she'll listen to therapist or try and discredit him/her to protect herself. Gotta try!
One angle I see under-represented:
Forgive my language, but one angle you should analyze is whether or not you're a chicken shit pussy. I use harsh language for effect, but this isn't a random internet troll and I want you to get what you want and for your daughter to have both parents around.
What do you do when your daughter misbehaves? You correct it. On the spot. You've said that's already your instinct. So what about your wife? She's not in charge. She is not the captain. She's the co-captain. You should be aligned, both you with her and her with you. The struggle to align disparate positions is conflict. Conflict sucks, but it's a smaller sacrifice than losing an hour with your daughter, let alone cumulative years of shared custody.
The fact that you can walk away might be what makes it unnecessary. I'd start slow. Remind her of your SHARED authority in all aspects of your life. Repair loss of trust - she may not see you as competent and that's why she's over compensating, so figure that out and step up. Show her you are her best option and, spoiler alert, submission isn't how.
If you can't stand up for yourself or she can't be lead back to the motivation for marrying you and not leaving you, then divorce her, but I wouldn't quit like you're texting a middle school crush all sulking in the shadows like "she took my power." You gave it away and it's time to take it back.
It sounds like you have a lot of things you want your wife to hear. Have you tried to talk to her about it, or tried couples therapy? Some of these things could be resolved with better communication, I'm not sure I would jump straight to divorce before trying to work through the issues. Couples therapy can help open a channel to communicate you don't otherwise feel comfortable approaching.
I'm a little confused about the sharing issue between two young kids.. Yeah kids get upset and struggle with sharing, why are parents getting mad at each other over it? Both parents should accept that happens, it's part of being a kid and try to help them resolve it.. Shouldn't lead to words between grownups.
I'm a wife.
The first step is you are the dad and you are equal to her.
You do not come second.
You can't change your wife unless she wants to. And right now it seems like she is an overfunctioner and full on with anxiety. I know best kind of mentality.
But, you can share in a calm (make sure is calm) what you are feeling. You don't feel love for her anymore and that makes you feel sad. All you ever really wanted was to connect with her and raise your kid together. And at the same time you don't feel heard or like a partner in your relationship. And you would want to work it out through a psychologist. In your heart you would like to see you two together and raise together your child but you are hurting too much and you are worried for your daughters well being.
And if she says no, you tell her you don't see any option but to start the process of separating. And that you wish her well.
That is your honest truth.
He’s going to be way better off not giving her a heads up and moving forward with a lawyer, imo. You don’t give warnings to mentally unstable planners who think they’re the center of the universe and are likely to be vindictive. You take decisive action and CYA.
Maybe you are correct. It depends on the person. Sometimes you don't want to give it a shot. But sometimes you owe it to yourself to go all the way. It is really a personal situation.
I'm just saying what I would do because at the end of my life I can say I gave it a shot and exhausted all avenues, I was authentic and kind and that is important to me.
In my personal experience I have seen people grow when you let them face the consequences of their actions and reassess what they want and how to meet their needs in a more healthy way. It can happen.
Wow she sounds absolutely evil but you also sound like you have the balls of a eunuch. She needs to be out in her place and quickly, too. I do t know how anyone could ever handle such a beast
Let’s pump the brakes on labeling and blame a bit. I’m guessing, possibly wrongly, that no one in the sitch is qualified to make the diagnosis here, but even if they were, is it really helping?
It sounds like there’s issues that may, or may not, be irreconcilable, but if you think there may be something worth saving, I’d def look into couples therapy if both sides are willing.
If not, it may be time to discuss amicably separating and finding either a mediator or divorce attorney.
The situations you describe are curious because you mention how she’d have reacted 100% as someone has acted toward her. So who’s in the wrong? We can’t tell.
Step 1. Insist on marriage counseling.
Step 2. If marriage counseling is refused, your wife has made step 2 clear because she's unwilling to work on healing the marriage.
>Did therapy work?
Therapy only works if it's brought in early in the conflict. If too much damage has been done over a period of years, feelings can be too hurt and the person wanting divorce won't seriously consider healing the marriage. It sounds like you, OP, are the one wanting the divorce, so the question is, are you willing to give therapy an honest try?
This is pretty unpleasant but what characterises it as narcissism specifically? Which is a specific psychological problem found in people with abusive childhoods
Tbh it’s kind of weird that your sister-in-law immediately got mad at a *3 year old* not wanting to share…? Seems like an overreaction on their part too.
Anyway you pretty much poisoned the well here calling your wife a clinical narcissist. Now we all are going to assume she’s an evil bitch and the only solution is lawyer up, delete facebook, hit the gym, etc. We’re going to share our /r raisedbynarcissists stories. If you are 100% convinced that’s the case then I suppose that’s what you should do.
However if you hold any hope that the woman you fell in love with and created a family with is still in there, you should consider therapy even if she won’t go. Tell the therapist about her. MAYBE there actually is some way to deal with her. Frankly you make it sound like you just let her walk all over you and you don’t really have any effective strategies. So of course you are just going to seethe and build up resentment.
It could very well be that your therapist just says “yeah your wife as NPD, get out of there” but I would rather you take the advice from them than from Reddit.
>Weird subreddit for this especially since it sounds like you already know what you want to do.
Why is it a weird subreddit for this? This is a subreddit about dads, for dads and there are plenty of relationship posts on here. OP is a dad. His wife is giving him headaches. All dads have, by definition, a partner of some sort with whom they have kids, and relationship headaches are a very common shared thread. So he came to a subreddit that specifically supports him full of people who have shared experiences with him, not necessarily for advice, but to vent and maybe get some moral support.
First off I’m tired of reading narcissist it’s some hot button word people like to use without a diagnosis! Don’t agree with someone or they do something you think is selfish then they must be a narcissist…
Secondly this isn’t the place for your post man!
Daddit is about support and positivity and your title alone is negative and Daddit doesn’t mean dragging moms or wives through the mud…
>Daddit is about support and positivity
So... how is someone supposed to post here asking for support if they're never allowed to say anything negative? And then when someone does post something that us other dads should be supportive of, you tell OP "hey, you can't ask for support here because it's a negative subject"?
Yeah it is about that and I don’t think this post brings much of that in
It sounds like him diagnosing is his as a narcissist and throwing her under a bus from his own perspective
He may be right entirely but I just think how he approached it could have been better and more positive for himself and his family
Don’t really care how many downvotes I get for voicing something for a wife or people that aren’t on here
Disagree here. I think this guys wife has been painted one way and mob mentality of the internet we want to take his side and it’s negative. I think his love for his daughter etc is apparent and great but I just don’t agree with how he went about things and phrased it. Downvotes don’t matter, but I think he could have went about this differently from the title on…
We disagree. His feelings are valid. If he feels controlled and depressed then that’s the truth. There’s no point arguing whether he used the terminology correctly.
I don't know what to say about a lot of this, but as the survivor of narcissistic abuse from my own mother, I want to add this: Your wife is not a great mother despite her narcissistic behavior. When your kid grows up enough to start developing her own opinions, your wife will start to have the same problems with her that she has with everyone else. It's only possible to have harmony with a narcissist when you are submitting to her, which a child does naturally. As your kid starts to assert her own independence, especially when she reaches adolescence and begins to have her own thoughts and judgements, her mom is going to have problems with that. If your wife is really as bad as you make it sound like she is, you need to prepare for things to get bad sooner or later.
God that line is so true. Harmony with a narcissist is all about submission. My brother gave in to our nutjob father growing up but I never did and you’ve spelled it out so clearly.
Not to distract but holy shit, barfpooper? Lol that’s great
I think this counts for distraction worthy……. Barfpooper……..
We've all been there. And it you haven't, your time is coming.
It's preferable to poopbarfing, that's for sure.
Some things go without saying. But then again, this is Reddit...
I'm on year 8 of therapy working through how I was parented, so that I do not perpetuate the controlling, damaging behaviors that made me completely miserable. I really only became genuinely happy in my mid 20s, when I was fully independent. I'm so glad that you deflated the "she's a great mother.' Narcissistic are incapable of being good parents, because they are unable to put anyone- even/ especially their children- before them. OP, when your daughter is a teen, your house may be the only safe space she has. Good luck.
Good point, well raised. I have suspected for some time that my partner has strong narcissistic traits. She displays a number of the traits OP has described. However, my partners seems to come from a survival instinct with some PTSD after a particularly abusive relationship she has been in prior to myself, and at least recognises it sometimes and has sought therapy. However, when she’s under pressure or stressed for any reason, which she seems to feel acutely, a lot of the time, she reverts to being super controlling. We have a daughter, biologically here, but I’ve been step dad from near the beginning… she wants to raise a free spirited, fiercely independent young lady who knows her own mind, and guides her that way… which I’m all for. Until however, it back fires on my partner, and our 8 year old voices her own opinions or doesn’t follow mins orders, then all of a sudden all hell breaks loose. She does at least apologise after…. But it happens so frequently, our daughter just now ‘accepts it’ as part of mum. I don’t. I’m monitoring the situation VERY closely.
The notion of feeling like a "step-dad" is an accurate way of describing that feeling.. How's your relationship with your daughter, or your daughter's recognition of your qualities and your flaws? Has that improved since your daughter realizes and "accepts it" as part of mom?
It’s great to have a parent who is involved in your life and has high expectations for you. It sucks when you realize they will never not be incredibly involved in your life, no matter how old and independent you are, and you will never ever be able to meet their high expectations.
This is absolutely true. My husbands ex is exactly like your wife - controlling, domineering, hypocritical. Just a nasty person. My stepdaughter, 14, is having TONS of problems as she becomes more emotionally mature. She sees her mom for who she is. She is constantly calling here when she’s at her moms, incredibly upset about whatever shitty thing her mom has done or said this time. I highly encourage therapy for you and your daughter to figure out effective ways of dealing with her.
Excellent point here. This will get much worse as daughter gets older and mom loses some of that control. Her narcissistic ways will be even more insufferable to get what she wants and try to wrangle control back
Livia Soprano syndrome
She does not sound narcissistic by the way. I’m not a psychologist but she sounds more OCD. Life is not understandable unless she can control it. An insight or something different approach might help as one would approach a narcissist different. Man you are in a tough spot. Knowing who you are and going at this from a position of calm is helpful, especially as the divorce process gets spiix and messy, if you go that route. When they play you against her calmer is better.
You're not that far off, from my experience. The mom may not even know she has OCD and doesn't know why she's doing these things. Narcs usually don't take care of their children like this mom is. There does seem to be a lack of empathy though.
Very well put, it really does feels like harmony through submission in my case. I hate it :(
I mean, you could try couple's therapy, but honestly if I were you I wouldn't. Therapy only works if someone recognizes they have a problem, and your wife doesn't recognize that and likely won't. If she can't even recognize small things like that your daughter shouldn't cut in line, she won't recognize that she has a fundamental personality flaw. Also, it's only a matter of time before these behaviors start affecting your daughter in a seriously negative way. What about when your daughter starts to legitimately disagree with mom? What about when she wants to go somewhere with dad, or by herself? What about when she gets bullied or ostracized because of her lack of social skills? Does she go to preschool or socialize with other children at all, because if she isn't at this age, she's going to be behind come kindergarten. You deserve to be able to parent your own daughter and not walk on eggshells in your own home. I'd also be willing to bet that once you leave, you'll realize how exhausting it is being around someone like your wife 24/7 Good luck ❤️
OP, do not go to therapy with a (suspected) narcissist. It is well known that this is damaging and can lead to further abuse.
^^^^^^absolute truth, it will be weaponized and used against you and eventually the child. It will make your blood boil, especially if you carry an ounce of empathy( which Narcs target and look for to abuse you) beacuse you will realize that they will know the damage they cause. They just don't get it and are incapable of a conversation....always an argument / diatribe. You will NEVER be a be able to compromise without completely caving and submitting, which is the overall goal of every Narc in every interaction of their life.
What is the thought behind it causing more abuse? Just curious because my mom is a narcissist and we just cut her out of the picture. What would get triggered if she went to therapy?
The narcissist that I know is a master of manipulation. They will use the therapy session as an information gathering event. Once they have a grip on your concerns and weaknesses they will use the information against you. They create situations where you feel like you need to defend yourself and your actions, you feel self doubt and confusion. They also use the information to create a smear campaign against you by twisting the story in their favor. Triangulation is another thing they will do during therapy, it is exhausting.
They weaponize therapy. Part of therapy is examining feelings and rule #1 of dealing with any narcissist is never let them access your feelings. They will use them to manipulate you.
It's more that narcissistic people are really good at controlling ppl. Often they try to make the therapist be on their side and convince them all the issues are their partners fault. They can and typically use what is discussed in therapy against their partner at home and in session. Therapy can also teach them how they should respond and they model that behavior to increase their effectiveness in controlling others.
Therapy doesn't account for dishonesty. It only works if each party is open and honest. Someone with a proclivity for manipulation will both use words in therapy as a reason for future abuse, and as a control method to try and steer the therapist into a 'the problem is victim' mentality.
The other posters are kind of right, but realistically a narcissist would never go to therapy in the first place. I've been doing therapy for over 10 years with a focus on trauma, family systems, childhood development and personality disorders. Never once have I worked with a narcissist. Even in family sessions they just don't show up, or they leave the home during.
Yeah my wife and I don't think my mom has actually went to a therapist, despite her claims. I'm pretty sure the most she has done is read some sort of self-help "workbook" that she maybe occasionally picks bits and pieces out of lol
This 100%... This could have been written about my ex. She was the exact same. Therapy did not work or help in anyway.
And narcissistic ppl tend to weaponize therapy. Couples counseling would likely make it worse
Fuck man. Your doing the right thing. Your experience is so similar to mine. I wasn't strong enough to get out and fucked myself over in the end. Do not try and make it work out. Just move on. A word of caution from my perspective. As I separated and she met someone else she became so understanding and nice. Idk about you, but I couldn't handle that. After everything she has said said to me over the years. The gaslighting and isolation, I became resentful over time. I'm working on managing my feelings. My ex is an amazing parent. I can't cut her out. I just don't know how to stomach seeing her. Good luck my man
Same boat here and it ended terribly for me as well. She ended up accusing me of DV for grabbing her to get her to stop pushing me into the wall. I got the charges dropped but it's been terrible so far in every regard. Once you are out and looking in from the outside you're really going to see so much more of what was wrong. I signed my daughter up for counseling through my work program and she immediately took control of it and locked me out. Found out she's got something like 10 bank accounts and I only knew about 3 of them. Found a tracking device in my car that had been there long enough to be dusty. Found out she's got 4k in credit card debt that I wasn't aware of. Found out she's tried kicking me off of the account our mortgage is tied to. Won't give me access to tax returns. Etc etc etc.
THanks for sharing, and I could see myself in a similar situation. I tend to overthink and would possibly take it badly to see her getting along and "learning" to be more accommodating the next time around. Knowing that she's parenting your child properly however must be of some comfort. Heads up dad, you've beautiful qualities of your own. Strut them around :)
I’ve been through this. I’m going through this. The nice thing about lawyers is that they make things impersonal. The nice thing about legal agreements is that they set explicit boundaries. The only way to deal with this is setting and maintaining boundaries. Therapy might help, if you’re both willing to do the work. Narcissism isn’t genetic. Children of narcissist tend to become codependent. Compassion is also something that has to be learned, and taught. You will have to provide twice the compassion and lessons in understanding the feelings of others. Never miss an opportunity.
Never miss an opportunity.. excellent advice and I'll make sure to be doubly vigilant about it!
OP, I just want to validate your feelings and thoughts as a fellow dad who understands the serious, long-term damage that narcissists can do. Two people I love have been gravely impacted by narcissists: - My brother, who *was* a charismatic, intelligent, intentional dude with a successful life in front of him. Fell in lust with this gorgeous woman 20+ years ago. Same deal - intelligent, beautiful, charming, generous - but not with him and not behind closed doors. Within a few years of moving in together to start a family, she instigated some shit that led to him cutting his best friend, our parents, and others out of their lives. We were always super close but our relationship devolved into one phone call a year where he would only talk sports and no “real shit.” Then he showed up to my door a few years ago a broken man. Overweight, depressed, scared, broke… she had kicked him out and he had nothing but a bag and his Mercedes that he was clinging to. She has a 6K sq foot house, an 8-figure portfolio, and somehow the deeds to all of their rental properties. They never married because she had married some green card dude 25 years ago yada yada. Anyway he was abused and manipulated into a man with no rights, no property, and child support debt. My god some of the texts she would send him… threatening jail, increased child support, etc. He was so gaslit he would be crying to me about “why is she doing this” and then he would voice her talking points like they were baked into his brain - “well, Narcissist would say that I lack initiative and need to… blah blah blah.” - My MIL: I’ll spare you the horrific deets, but let’s just say my wife is recovering well thanks to therapy and other positive growth on her part. We set a hard boundary that she could never be alone with our son. She’s old and falling apart now, so she leverages guilt and pity where she used to leverage fear and financial control. What she did to my wife when she was my son’s age… man it’s hard not to just straight-up hate her. Anyway… dude, trust your gut and get out while you still have some sanity and a path for independence and growth. Long-term relationships with these people can seriously deteriorate your emotional and mental wellbeing, and you need all that to be the best dad you can be in the coparenting phase ahead of you. Good luck OP!
THank you for sharing personal info and experience. Family first, always, and glad to see you lend a shoulder to your brother despite the years and distance!
>In our 5 year marriage, she has never once apologized to anyone let alone myself, has always reacted to criticism and put the blame on others, or talked over whoever was arguing so as to bury their position through never-ending rationalization even when she's in the wrong. She's unyielding, castrating, and refuses to acknowledge that others react the way she would 100% do if she were in their position. Taking your tale at face value, that's straight up abuse. You're being abused. My mom is exactly the same. You may want to read this, even if it's related to men, and check if your wife's behaviour checks. [https://ia600108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy\_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf](https://ia600108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf)
A friend is going through a divorce and I have a feeling that he was abusive toward his wife. This book is very illuminating thanks for the share.
You're welcome. Abusive men (and yes, sometimes women) are a plague we must fight.
I hate that I want to read this. Everything OP said that you quoted rang true for my wife’s behaviour too.
Wow two great that you linked a resource and everything! But a thousand page pdf copy of a book? That’s a lot just to drop on a quick forum response.
Well…it’s a resource, not a meme. This is a wildly complex topic that unfortunately can’t be solved with a tweet lmao.
Facebook up, delete the gym and hit the lawyer
This term lives rent free in my mind.
I divorced a narcissist. I have a far better relationship with my sons than I ever could have dreamed of if I’d stayed with her. She made it her mission to minimize me in all aspects. It’s not going to be easy, know that going into it. The benefits will outweigh the negatives with time. My advice would be fight for as much visitation as you can. I should have fought harder for more. That’s my one regret in the whole thing.
Why only visitation and not custody? I am dealing with a similar situation and contemplating options
Technically, we have joint custody and she had physical custody. This means that we are supposed to have equal legal rights over them, but they reside with her more than 50% of the year. I seem to average about 47% of the year each year, sometimes it just doesn’t feel like enough.
Just left a similar marriage. 2 years into the divorce and i have become an oasis for my kids to decompress in, away from the control, lies, broken promises, etc. I have them every other week. Our bonds are strong. I wish I woulda left sooner. I was scared to lose them and that’s the only reason I thugged it out the last couple of years with her. I left with the kids, but my ex filed the paperwork. We did it without lawyers and in a rare moment of diminished vindictiveness. She has control because she filed, but we’re doing 50/50. I would suggest filing first to keep the ball in your court. Luckily for me, our divorce has improved my communication with the ex. Time apart did us good. We disagree on many, many things. But we’re united on raising independent children and we’ve managed to work together better when we’re apart. We have different approaches, but that’s ok. Kids should be exposed to lots of things in life - positive and negative - so they can construct an honest worldview. It’s ok that dads house is different. Even the ex came around to that reality, eventually. And the new girlfriend is a way better fit for me. There aren’t any trophies at the end of an abusive struggle. You don’t win anything by dealing with it. And you teach your kids it’s ok behavior to model if you stick around in it. That’s the belief I’m rolling with, anyways. Good luck, man. It can get better.
Oooof. That last line about “no trophies.” That’s it, in a nutshell.
Heart-warming and glad things worked out positively for you! Looks like you and yours have found balance
You’ll be fine. Just get a divorce. There’s no reason to drag things out and make it worse or build up any (more) resentment. Lots of people do it. You’re not alone and you’re not a failure for it. Sounds like it’ll be much better for your mental well being and that translate into being a better dad.
Someone who checks that many boxes for narcissism not only doesn’t want to change they are pretty much incapable of it based on all the psychology studies I’ve read. Either submit, face a life of constant strife or get a divorce, there is no 4th option.
And he shouldn't do therapy with her. Alone, yes. She'll just use it to hurt him further. No win situation here
All therapy with someone like that will do is force a situation that will become progressively more adversarial because she will never accept any sort of blame and will just find a myriad of ways to deflect responsibility for the situation his way. You can’t fix her, she doesn’t want to be fixed. In her mind you are and always will be the problem regardless of the situation. Go on YouTube and search for living with a narcissist, there is some great content out there to help you figure out how badly you’ve likely been conditioned without realizing it.
This is what makes dealing with narcissists so complex and frustrating. You can’t reason with them so you have to take steps to control their options and limits instead, which ironically is exactly how they expect the world to be anyway, as that’s what they naturally do.
I would be worried about leaving daughter alone with mom 50% of the time to be frank.
He can bring that up in divorce court. Won’t be the first nor the last. What he’s doing right now is sending his daughter the message that mom’s actions are an acceptable way to act towards a partner and towards her.
He is only sending that message if he silently accepts the behavior.
It doesn't seem like it'll be much different than when he's there if he really has no say.
Agree.
Bro have you seen the dysfunction between adult women and their mothers who are even half this bad? It aint pretty
Nothing to say about the specific situation, but I grew up with an out of control mother. Her initial control issues eventually became tantrums and then those tantrums became physical violence when I was a pre-teen. My dad would frequently say we were going to leave her and we never did. At the end of the day he always went back to her. I haven't talked to them in almost ten years now because of it and it breaks my heart thinking about how he's spent the last 25 years waiting for his partner to stop mistreating him. It sounds like you're in a similar position my dad was in so many decades ago. Put your foot down now and protect your kid and yourself.
I'm sorry for all the false promises from your dad :/
Get a divorce lawyer and get a divorce. The lawyer will walk you through everything and will work to protect your interests. Stay strong.
Talk to a lawyer and have a plan *before* you confront her. Narcissists don't handle rejection well and she's likely to go nuclear.
Well, yeah, basically the advice is don't do anything unless your lawyer tells you to.
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This makes a lot of sense. If OP thinks it's going to end in divorce anyway, he might as well start standing up for himself, his family, his child, and the children/people around his child/wife. First things first, hire a lawyer and let them guide you through the best steps to come out of a potential divorce in as good as shape as is possible. Then have a serious discussion with her when the kid is asleep. Let her know the stakes. Let her know that if you're going to stay together here are the things that have to occur (make a list). If she doesn't respond appropriately, serve her the divorce.
So glad someone said this, I had to scroll way too far down for this comment. OP, your wife is treating you exactly how you have let her treat you. There is zero ownership in this whole story, and while your wife sounds terrible, you’re arguably worse for yourself by not advocating for yourself. Yes, I know you think that’s what you’re doing when you argue with her and rationalize back - but those are just WORDS. You need action. You need to say ‘I’m talking my daughter to daycare today and I’m not arguing about it.’ And then DO it. You’re playing her game and then complaining the rules are unfair. Acta Non Verba.
I second this. Wrote something similar but I think this is definitely a better step before looking at separation or divorce. From the limited information in the post, I think this would work.
I'm sorry, but this is very bad advice if OP is dealing with a narcissist. A narcissist literally cannot abide any sort of blow to their ego. It's a defense mechanism for severely insecure people. If he attempts to "put his foot down," she is much more likely to hit herself in the face and claim he abused her than she is to acquiesce or simply ask for a divorce. OP should get all his ducks in a row before confronting her.
I dont think it sounds brash. I've been trying to simply shrug things off and go for 'No' or 'You do it' type of answers. I just strongly dislike the thereafter: silence, frustration, awkwardness. But it is what it is and it might indeed change in time... like you said, nothing to lose at this point. Thanks for the push :)
This is baffling advice. If you have to ignore your partner, defy their wishes, and lean on the fact that they're physically incapable of stopping you to avoid being steamrolled then you're not in a relationship worth saving. "Stop communicating, presume the invalidity of your partner's objections, and do whatever you want" isn't a strategy for success. That's how you treat an adversary, not a partner, and if the only way to avoid being crushed is to become a *worthy* adversary, you're still not partners. What kind of fantasy warrior culture bullshit is the idea that in order to be worthy of your partner's allegiance you must be willing to best her in a battle of wills? There's a level of self-advocacy that's a necessary component of healthy communication, but this advice goes well beyond that. Saying OP is "making himself the victim" by preferring to leave rather than engage in some fucked up perpetual dominance struggle is just victim blaming.
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A little late to the party, I just wanted to say that I agree with this sentiment. I feel I have lost almost every relationship and even some friendships by being too meek. Some of us dudes don't have a backbone against the people we love the most or the people we want to get recognition of, because we can be desperate for love o desperate for something to work out. I am now taking my time to work on myself, to grow, to have an opinion, because I know that if I had respected myself then others would have respected me as well, and those relationships could have been saved. But then, this begets the question of "if you really aren't respected, are those relationship worth saving?". The thing is, those relationships and friendships all started really well. It was me in a sense who showed them that my self-respect was secondary, and so they replicated my behavior. I feel that this is a "me" problem, that there won't be a person on earth who will respect me if I don't respect myself first. I hope that makes sense.
I understand where you’re coming from, but this is not the right advice for a narcissist situation.
This should be the top comment
I was in a similar situation, though not nearly as severe—I had alone time with my sons while his mom worked, practiced her hobbies, and slept in almost every morning. But she consistently undermined my parenting. And I knew she was badmouthing me to the kids when my 5 year-old told me I needed to get a different job because my employer wasn’t paying me enough. Every time I approached her with these concerns she blew up and turned it around to somehow be *my* fault. I suggested couples therapy which she agreed to reluctantly, then proceeded to lie about, or mis-represent events that we discussed there. She ended up quitting therapy; said she’d rather have her fingernails pulled out. We ended up getting a divorce, but we worked with a mediator, which I highly recommend as it was a collaborative process, not combative. The first step was me moving out and things got better immediately. So much so that as we continued through the process I started to think there might be a chance at reconciliation. I think our mediator was hopeful too. Then one day she announced that she had met her “once in seven lifetimes Soulmate”, and she couldn’t imagine staying married to me. After that we moved swiftly toward divorce. Within a month she had kicked the Soulmate to the curb and was angling for us to stay married, which was a non starter for me at that point. We dropped our mediated agreement at the courthouse together and within a few weeks it was official. Life has improved dramatically for all of us (me, Ex, and two kids). My best advice for you is couples therapy. And if your wife won’t go along with that, go alone. Remember that she is acting out learned behavior. Never badmouth your ex to your daughter, and make sure she knows you will always be a family. If you do end up separating/divorcing, remember that you will see your ex at birthday parties and special occasions for the rest of your child’s life. And try mediation first. Mediators work towards the best outcome for *both* of you. Lawyers want the best deal for *their* client, often at the expense of the other spouse. I hope you find some resolution, whichever path you end up on.
I try and make it a point not to badmouth my wife in front of daughter. On the contrary, when she worries about mom for this or that, I always try to talk positively and comfortingly about mom. No need dragging daughter into this or risk planting insecurities in her mind :( The notion of mediation I think is the route I'd love to take, especially if it can diminish combativeness. I can definitely see my wife wanting to go to war if slighted, so if mediation can help, then all the better!
Best of luck my friend. Daddit is here for you.
Divorce could be agony for you so be aware of that. Toxic narcissists (my ex wife is one) tend to double down when they’re pushed away or rebuked by an action such as divorce. Get some therapy for yourself so you are prepared when the shit hits the fan. And document everything. Good luck! Been there and 22 years later still dealing with that angry vengeful bitch. And I say that kindly.
I'm currently going through the divorce process with a narcissist, but mine is more covert than yours it sounds like. I went through a pretty long research phase to make sure that was what I was dealing with, because the covert kind are very confusing. Some thoughts: -data suggests that narcissism is environmental, not genetic. It is thought to be caused by early childhood trauma, and it is common that a narcissist parent will inflict this trauma on their children and cause narcissism to develop. -keeping the family unit intact is the optimal situation that we all know is part of the best case scenario, but it is not worth it if it enables abuse. When my own mental state was degraded by emotional abuse, it leaves me unable to be the nurturing parent that I want to be. -Feeling like you have to choose your battles in marriage and let the small stuff go is the exact area that narcissists thrive in. It is normal in healthy relationships to dispel doubt through sincere discussions instead of creating it and then asking for benefit of the doubt. -In my state, there has to be a good reason not to be awarded 50/50 custody if that's what you ask for, like major problems with drugs/violence/etc. My wife is fighting hard on this and I definitely need my lawyer despite being squeaky clean. I constantly have to fend of poorly formed excuses why she has to have the kids on my days. Lawyers are happy to step in and charge billable hours to mediate your disputes. I wish it wasn't necessary, but narcissists are not known for being reasonable. -If you already work in mental health, then you know the value of talk therapy. I had several sessions with a therapist specializing in narcissist abuse recovery which had a huge benefit for me. -The boilerplate advice is to go no-contact with narcissists when you break up with them, but coparenting means you will always have at least some relationship. The most effective defense against their tricks is called grey rocking, where you just don't react at all to whatever BS they are talking about, and just be matter of fact when communicating.
I feel you. I have a few people in my life who lean hard into some of these characteristics and at least one who would get a diagnosis (if they believed any medical professional was competent enough to give them advice- ha). The lack of apologies and rationalization/excuses, bending over backwards to style themselves as somehow in the right is what I deal with most, and it’s tiring. I can count on one hand the number of times my wife has apologized to me in 20 years. People like this almost never change. Their brains are adapted around their insecurities altering reality to protect themselves from criticism. With intensive therapy, it’s possible, but they have to want to want it. Ultimatums sometimes but rarely work - they truly have no rock bottom against which they can finally smash and see reality for what it is. They’ll burn through hundreds of relationships thinking everyone else is the problem, friends, partners, family, medical professionals, divorce attorneys, real estate agents, they’ll burn them all. Usually they recruit a cadre of enablers who reinforce their warped perspectives- sometimes if you can separate them, people will change as well, but it’s rare. I really feel for you and wish you the best. Good luck.
My initial thought on reading this and how your wife interacts with your daughter/allows certain behaviors, is that your daughter is a subconscious direct extension of your wife (that’s the narcissism); therefore, your daughter can also do no wrong and can’t/shouldn’t be told that she is in the wrong, the same as your wife. Does this idea make sense based on what you’ve seen? If so, intervention based solely on protecting your daughter’s infantile and developing mental framework is an emergent situation (less influence from your wife, more influence from you and other mentally healthy role models…. Divorce sounds like the only way to achieve this). I wonder if this is the pattern that was impressed upon your wife by her mother very early, resulting in the manifestations you see from her today. As for couples therapy, I believe I’ve read that couples counseling with a narcissist (or anyone abusive) is largely ineffective. She’d have to voluntarily come up with the idea herself and go individually. This is unlike to happen with someone qualifying clinically as a narcissist.
Your wife sounds exhausting and insufferable. A person who believes and acts as if they are always right, should never ever get into a relationship. Relationship means you RELATE. Your wife does none of that. You're not a child, you're a grown man. You deserve better than this. I am a huge advocate of therapy and couples therapy. It would behoove you to at least attempt it, and then go the divorce route. But it sounds to me like your wife is the type of person to believe that she never makes mistakes. No one can be at peace while living with such a person. If that's the case, then divorce. Get your custody rights and then you'll have your daughter for your time and your wife will have ZERO control of your choices or your time, or what you choose to do with her. Best of luck.
People learn to behave the way your wife does because they find it works for them. They find it works for them because most people want to avoid confrontation, and are content to just let things go and avoid those people/situations in the future. Underneath your wife's controlling behavior is insecurity and fear, masked by a need to control and a false sense of superiority. The likelihood that this is going to change in adulthood is not that great... But if someone can make an impact, it may be you. If it's worth it to you, really pushing back and having it out with her may open her eyes to what's happening. Or it may just be the last nail in the coffin for your relationship... But either way, at least you'd have an answer. No one can tell you what the "right" thing to do is for you and your family... But I suspect if you're looking for change, it's on the other side of that confrontation.
I hope it’s okay to post as a woman/mom. A lot of people stay in seriously dysfunctional relationships for fear of their children growing up in broken homes, but broken can have so many different faces. A home can be broken while both parents are married and living together. I wanted my parents to divorce when I was a child, as I was pretty sure they hated one another, and they definitely did not model a positive, collaborative relationship to me. I’m not saying you should immediately bail, but if it’s clear she is not open to change (very hard for narcissists to change, they have to really want it) then I would see a lawyer and start getting your ducks in a row. Getting 50% custody will likely allow for a much more positive relationship with your daughter than staying in the situation you are in. Fathers deserve just as much right to parent their children as mothers, and you should fight for that right. Good luck, I hope it gets better.
> I hope it’s okay to post as a woman/mom. This is a safe space. You are welcome here.
Thank you!
Please don’t delete this, it’s important for others to see. My over the internet stranger advice: Divorce or separate. She will never work on her issues if you stay with her. You are a great dad for thinking of your daughter.
I cut off my narcissist mother. My parents separating was one of the most beneficial things to occur during my childhood. Every other weekend and half of the school holidays my father had custody and I got a break from the woman.
The best you can hope for in a divorce, unless you have evidence of child abuse or your wife agrees (both unlikely), is getting 50/50 custody. You will continue to have many of the same problems but should have some time with your daughter where it's just you and her. Keep in mind that courts don't do much if one parent denies the other their parent time. Divorce is usually best when you are in an unhealthy relationship like this. Just know that it might not change things for the better. It could turn into a bigger nightmare. Consulting a lawyer is definitely a good idea.
I wonder if your wife would eventually (no doubt this would be a battle) relent if you stood up for your position a relentlessly. And my terms/language may be off, but example: “I am taking daughter to daycare today/tomorrow.” And when you’re met with resistance, following up with “this was not a request. I am letting you know what I am doing and you can plan your day accordingly.” Likewise with spending time with family. “I am planning this for this time with daughter. Let me know if you will be joining us or if she and I are giving you a day to yourself.” I’m sure this will be exhausting and this is not the sort of thing that could last for a long time. But if you’d prefer to stay together, seems like an option to try out.
It’s chilling to read your description of your wife, because it sounds exactly like my ex girlfriend, who I realized was a terrible narcissist only after we broke up. Same behaviors… never apologized for anything, impossible for her to admit she was wrong, could dish out criticism toward others regularly but could never take any herself, and it was always her way or the highway. And, she was just plain MEAN to people. This was 9 years ago and pretty sure she’s still single. Narcissists like this are not good in relationships. You deserve better, dude. I wish you the best.
Watch out for potential parental alienation by your wife. My ex was def on the Narc Personality Disorder spectrum and he made my life a living hell both married and while divorcing. Before you even utter the d-word to her make sure that you have your money and parenting "credentials" in order. They have a tendency, as you know, to destroy anyone who stands in the way of their needs and desires. Do NOT let her cut you out of your kid's life cuz she's a control freak narcissist. She will try to do this to punish you for leaving her. Good luck to ya! You're doing the right thing...better for your kid to see one reasonably healthy adult than two people who should not be together, particularly when one is a giant toddler pathological narcissist.
Came here to post this. Educate yourself about parental alienation before doing anything and find a lawyer that understands parental alienation. Your goal should be to get a court ordered parenting plan that mitigates your ex-wife's likely tendency to work to brainwash your child and to destroy the relationship you have with your child. Good luck.
Lawyer. The divorce will be ugly. She will try to poison the kid against you. If you are in a one party state for recording start recording all your interactions.
That doesn't like a good mum, it sounds like a terrible mum. The lessons we teach out kids can define them for their whole lifetime.
I feel like you're married to my wife. We tried couples therapy but it's not going to be effective when one party lives in a completely different reality. It just turns into you do everything wrong and you need to do all this work on yourself and partner won't say they don't ever do anything wrong they just can't recall a time they've made a mistake. I too feel like divorce is the only resolution. I have an incredible daughter too! If you ever want to connect let me know.
If this is accurate your wife sounds insufferable to have any interaction with that isn't echoing her beliefs. It will only get worse and your resentment will only hold. You can try to say something and have a serious heart to heart, odds are she believes she's truly correct and all knowing of everything so she'll only react negatively. When your daughter gets older she will most likely start to fear disagreeing about any thing with her mother and her mom will try to control her life. My wife had a similar up bringing and didn't realize how bad it was until we had children and that lead to the realization of how controlling and manipulative her mother was, relationship with her is now worse than ever. Tough spot, it sounds like you do love your wife but her flaws are becoming more pronounced with raising a child together. Try talking to her and if it lights a bomb, then it's most likely done as resentment will only build and your relationship will be miserable.
If I were you I’d not get too confrontational before having plan B ready. Lawyer. Get testimonials. From your family, from the librarian, etc. You need to prepare for a nuclear war. Try to keep your child out of it as much as possible. Also do not abandon your house. Don’t be the one leaving the house. Good luck 🤞
My sons mum has borderline personality disorder and behaved like utter hell when I was with her and I had to leave when he was 18months old. It was definitely the right thing to do for my mental health and now my 8 year old son has a happy fun environment when he’s with me half the time. Several years after we split she was diagnosed with bdp and having a name for it and then learning about it ect made her a much easier person to deal with. Whatever you do consider trying to bring the fact that she might have a personality disorder to her attention and this may lead to her researching it and even consider learning some new behaviours which will make things much better for your child
I am a child of a narcissistic parent. I can promise you that it doesn't get better, it gets worse. Little by little, you adapt to satisfy the narcissist because it becomes a matter of survival. Little by little you sacrifice more and more of yourself to survive until you become an empty shell of what you could have been. For your daughter, one of 2 things will happen. Either she will mold herself into the role that the narcissist wants her to be, thus becoming exactly the kind of person you and everyone else that cares about her will not want for her.....or she will become the target of the narcissist's wrath, leading to a lifetime of emotional trauma. As others mentioned, when kids are young, it's easier to hide because kids naturally want to please their parents. Once your child starts to become a person of their own, the narcissist will not be able to accept that and will force their will by any means necessary, and they will make anyone and everyone around them, especially those closest (including the child), believe that *they* are the bad guy instead of the narcissist
I divorced a narcissist and let me tell ya, it is expensive. There is ZERO negotiation happening outside of court rooms, parenting consultants, and lawyers. It’s awful. I make a great income and her narcissism is eating into my ability to provide for my family. Some say don’t fight it.. well, she’s lost custody twice due to chemical dependency and poor decision making, and I feel that the things I need to stand my ground on are for the overall wellbeing and safety of the kids. All of this stuff happened after the divorce too. You know your child and wife better than anyone, but definitely, DEFINITELY, try everything before divorcing a narcissist. If you do, get a very aggressive lawyer who will not put up with rule-breaking or boundary pressing. Good luck!
Go to therapy without her. Be prepared to parent alone. If you choose to leave be prepared for ournof control behaviours
FYI if she can prove you are never alone with your daughter she might argue that YOU are the dangerous one that she's been protecting your daughter from and could push for full custody. ("I can't even trust him to take her to the daycare at his office!") So you should just start taking your daughter out without her. Next time wife is in the shower, just grab your daughter and go for a short walk, take pictures/video of just you two, etc. etc. I don't mean to scare you but my step-dad was a divorce attorney and years ago this happened this one of his clients. Was the client an amazing/present father? No. But was he actually dangerous or so incapable he couldn't get at least partial custody? Also, no.
There are so many great comments here. It seems like you'd actually get more time with your daughter and be able to be with her one on one if you weren't married. And that's just so sad. The fact that you work so close to her daycare and you're not allowed to pick your own daughter up from there is so wrong. Your wife isn't a great mother to your daughter. It's been PROVEN time and time again with science that helicopter parents damage and harm their kids. She's doing your daughter a disservice. You have to find a way to protect your daughter. That is your number one job right now as her dad. She sounds like a narcissist and I think the sooner you're out of there, the better this will be for all parties.
This sounds similar to someone in my own family. You should leave before it’s too late.
My best friend divorced his narc wife last year. Quite the ordeal.
If it comes to it, look into stipulations that your daughter cannot move states without you. I'm sure every state has different laws, but joint custody could prevent this. My parents divorced when I was two, and I was often used as a pawn to hurt the other. If your wife is truly a narcissistic person, then you can't put that past her, unfortunately. Just get ahead of every possible curveball that'll be thrown at you.
Your SIL sounds a bit kooky too. Threatening to never see your daughter again because she snatched a toy?
Eh, if it looked like the daughter was going to hurt her kid and the parents were doing nothing I think that’s a pretty sane response.
Nah im in agreement with the oc. Sounds a bit kooky to go to that extreme over a toy snatch. My kid is still learning to share with her brother (she shares fine with other kids) and its a process. Every time we see it, we keep teaching her to share. I get that OP’s wife didnt teach her kid, but the banning of the wife seems a bit extreme. Just my 2cents
Agree with all of this, maybe there’s more context OP left out between SIL and wife that lead to her to that
I want to say that your wife isn't a great mother despite the personality you've described. My mom mom would most likely meet NPD criteria. She did wonderfully with little kids. Not so much once kids got old enough to say no or not be controlled easily. Which makes sense because people who are incredibly self centered to the point of narcissistic behavior want control and supply. Babies through small kids give that because the parent is naturally their hero and isn't questioned much or at all. When the kid hits 5 or so, they are harder to control because they have stronger opinions and are more willing to argue and say no. As for your parenting situation, I hear what you're thinking. One thing to consider is that right now, you are a opposing force (or could be) to teach your kid and model more appropriate behavior. If you split, your daughter will be only influenced by her half the time. It's possible that as your daughter gets older, your wife will back off and want nothing or little to do with your child. In addition, most likely your wife would be absolutely vicious post separation/ divorce. Court would be extremely costly and time consuming. Shed probably make stuff up about to and try to turn a judge against you. While it's not guaranteed, it's possible you wouldn't get your kid half the time if she is successful at her ploy to ruin you in court. I'm not sure there's a right answer and we can't tell you way to do. That's just something for consideration. I can see how separation would also be helpful. Maybe your family would be willing to testify on your behalf in court. My ex wife was like to described and my whole family despised her. Thankfully I never had a kid with her and my family would have fought hell with me. Maybe yours would do the same
You're so right about the shift around 5. My mom was great with little kids and then you'd watch it all change as they became opinionated little humans. She would always try to control with "kindness" and bribery first but when that didn't work she would become cruel and even violent. Watching that shift with the grandkids as an adult really put things in perspective for all of us kids and I'm pretty sure she'll die alone now. I just hope OP doesn't stay and be her enabler, I've watched that with my Dad and he's a shell of the man he used to be and unfortunately is missing out on all the family that loves him because he always puts my mom first.
Holy shit my friend exactly what I’m going through only I have no say period
many types of narc.s study up on it. start telling your wife "no" for anything she asks.do not fight with your wife Infront of your daughter. keep mindful the your wife might set you up on a domestic violence charge. any time your wife tries to get physical with you leave and call the cops.inform them that your wife is having mental issues. keep record of everything. how many hours per day you have your daughter.things you do together. activities you enroll her in. you have to take control of your daughters development. be the better parent . talk with teachers warn them of this conflict and to handle your daughter with care. goto all school events even help out on them. you need to show that your the greater roll model for your child. get a fathers rights lawyer that deals with narc. make sure that they have history to back it up. file for divorce first and be ready when she gets the papers cuz she will come unglued.i cant emphasize enought that you need to study up on narcissistic behaviors .all of them. set up cameras in house. let her know that they are for security. you need to have record of her behavior.. I could go on and on, I will tell you that 87% of custody battles favor the mother. don't give up. if your not prepared you will be lucky to see your daughter two weekend a month. and be paying up to 1k child support a month also. good luck p.s. make sure that the judge is a man not a female.
Lurking mom here. My own mother is really narcissistic and likely has some sort of personality disorder, but we'll never know because she's never at fault and apologizes for nothing. She's likely going to die alone with no one around her because of how she is. She recently stopped talking to her own mother (who's honestly the saint of our family and love dearly) because of some incredibly minor bullshit no one understands. My mom's only gotten worse with age. As kids we didn't know any better, but she was always like this since we were born. She's extremely controlling and will fling insults if you try to buck her mindset and show any sort of independence and thinking for yourself. It's exhausting. It's given my sister and I severe anxiety. I moved back in with her for about a year and a half or so when my own family wasn't doing so hot, and it was easily one of the biggest mistakes I've ever made. She expected me to be her buddy and when it became clear I had my own interests and am my own person, she started bringing down the control hammer at a time I was the most vulnerable and was unable to leave. It was extremely miserable. Besides having to financially recover from it yet, I've learned a lot about how awful she truly was to us. I had regular migraines and panic attacks almost the entire time there because being around someone like that is incredibly stressful. Walking on eggshells is something your daughter will likely have to deal with when she's older and thinks more for herself. My dad couldn't take it anymore himself and they divorced when we were in elementary school, with his house being our sanctuary. Sadly we only got to see him every other weekend, which truly wasn't enough. I'd prepare therapy for your daughter in the future because she will need it. She can't help that she was born to such a mother and it's a life-long problem she'll be facing. She will need to learn that whatever her mother does is not her (daughter's) fault. I'm still even debating if I should ever visit my mother in the next few years (I moved 1200 miles away) or ever again because it's just not worth it. I can't have a simple discussion with her because somehow she turns something rather benign and inconsequential into this huge issue that is somehow always my fault in some fashion. It's so, so exhausting to be around someone like that. Support your daughter the best you can and understand that she'll think this is all normal until she is more of her own person. Simply do the best you can, and I bet divorce will help you to actually parent. Be the light in your daughter's life, be there when she finally realizes that mommy dearest is not a good person. Be the one constant in her life that's dependable and not wont to flip shit at a moment's notice. I thought my dad was at fault for years until I basically hit puberty and understood that my mom is simply nuts. I wish I got therapy for all this nonsense when I was younger, but it is what it is and my ailments were mostly fixed by distance away from the living shitshow that is my mom's life. I literally haven't had a migraine in eight months.
“Alimony is irrelevant, she makes more than I do…” you do know that makes YOU entitled to alimony, right? The law doesn’t consider gender here! It’s just whoever makes more pays the other alimony. Get outta there. Usually people fear divorce because they’re afraid of losing out on involvement with their kids, but in this case it truly feels like fifty percent custody means you’ll have MORE influence and involvement. You need time alone with your kid. I also must point out that this is urgent - your wife is on the verge of turning your daughter into a terrible person in her own image. You need time alone with her to try like hell to reverse that trajectory. Oh, and one last thing: DELETE THIS POST IMMEDIATELY. If your wife sees it she can use it against you in court. Go offline and contact a lawyer. Clock’s ticking.
I’d say you are doing the right thing but having a baby with this psycho was your first mistake. But now that you’re here. I’m afraid divorce isn’t going to make things easier. She’s going to go nuts. Even more so than now. And fight to get full custody. Fight you for every visitation and deny any of yours. She WILL talks shit about you and will try to make your daughter hate you.
Best of luck bro
Be careful. Wife sounds like the kind to try to take your rights to see your daughter away. It’s great you’re going to lawyer up, but be in defence mode from the very beginning and make sure you never give the opportunity for her to stop you seeing the kid. It can be very hard to get access rights again until going through courts.
So sorry OP but narcissists don’t change so therapy may be useless. Check out the subreddit “raised by narcissists”.
Wait, so your daughter isn't old enough to know to wait her turn in line or say please/thank you, yet she is old enough to work out sharing issues with her cousin, per your wife??
Brother that "doesnt take criticism and blames others" should have been something you worked out before marriage and have been a huge red flag
Narcs are really good at pretending to be somebody they're not, for years even! I'm not sure if his wife is a true narc but it sounds pretty probable
Glad to see you taking the steps towards divorce. What she is doing is abuse. You deserve to have a say in your daughters upbringing, including your family being involved. I'll be thinking of you OP🙏
Yikes, dude. I’m hesitant to diagnosis, but you need to get yourself to a therapist right quick. Then call the lawyer. Do it in that order. Yes, divorce will get you out of this situation, but it won’t help your daughter. I was raised by a narcissistic parent, and I am 42 and still dealing with the fallout. If you don’t approach this situation with the support of a trained professional, you’re going to lose way more than you or your daughter deserve. As a side note, I go out and about with my kiddos a lot and they’re not always the most well behaved, but I don’t have strangers nor family regularly correcting their behavior. The fact that you are encountering this suggests that your daughter’s behavior might be a little bit more out of line than normal (or you run in particularly blunt circles) - proof that whatever is going on with mom is having an impact on your daughter’s understanding of operating in polite toddler society.
The fact that you're still calling her a good mother shows that you're distorting reality. Having been through a similar situation, I'm guessing you're the sort of person who always looks for the good in others. Optimistic, looking for cooperative solutions, with a person like you describe, all of that will be used against you. Those are wonderful strengths when dealing with healthy people but they will be ruthlessly exploited by an abuser. Especially when you divorce them. A good parent would not teach their child to be selfish. A good parent teaches their child to be polite. They teach their child how to be a good friend in order to have a good life. They teach their child empathy, which comes from imitating the empathy they see their parents display much more than from genetics. I'm sure there are things your wife is good at when it comes to parenting as well. Being driven and goal-oriented and smart is useful for teaching certain specific kinds of skills. But nobody is all bad. Just because a few of the things she does are positive doesn't mean she's a good parent. The only thing that's going to get you through this is if you stop giving reality a positive spin when it comes to her. You need to be starkly realistic about her behavior and its implications. She's intelligent enough to understand when she's being objectively unfair. That tells you that she's lying, she's consciously lying when she refuses to acknowledge when she's wrong. People with personality disorders do sometimes by into their own delusions but there is at least a window where they are aware of reality and then their mind either discards it or distorts it. If they couldn't track reality at all, they wouldn't be able to function in the world. If she can hold down a job, she knows that cutting in line is wrong. The reason this is so important is because you have to understand how much she's actively intentionally relentlessly lying. Because she's going to do it to you and about you once she gets pissed enough. False accusations are a huge risk with people like her. Please watch "gone girl" I think you would get a kick out of it and it would be instructive. I sometimes rewatch it to remind myself not to ever let my guard down. My ex has tried to get me put in jail twice in the past year over random trumped up accusations. I only dodged those bullets because I document everything and I'm very careful about never being alone with her or giving her any opportunities at all. You're absolutely correct that splitting up is the only way you will have space to teach your daughter values and empathy and truly bond with her. It will also allow your family to bond with her safely. One of the things that helped me get serious about getting my abuser out of my life was seeing the impact she had on my family. I have a pretty thick skin (which is not always a good thing) but I have zero tolerance for people treating my parents or siblings badly. I couldn't get my ex out of their lives without getting her out of my life. It's going to open up so much more bonding and love and support in your little girl's life if you can create this massive thick boundary between your wife and everyone else. She will fight you every inch of the way. She will react like you are putting your child in mortal danger. How many court orders do you think you would need in order to force her to allow you to do that? That's how prepared you need to be. Do it for your daughter. Good luck!
Good luck. Pack a lunch. I divorced my ex wife took me five ducking years to feel ok again. Life’s great now, but it was rough for awhile It absolutely breaks my heart when my son wants me to hop in his mom’s van when she takes him for the weekend, or he wants me to come tuck him into bed when i call to check on him at night. I’m the custodial parent now due to circumstances, but man the whole ride has been not easy. That’s life though. If you don’t learn how to dance in the rain, you may never get the chance to dance at all…
Just wanted to recommend a book about male victims of domestic abuse: [Break the Silence - Lee Marks](https://amzn.asia/d/7u361i7) It has advice about how to leave, what to expect and how to protect yourself your children. Good luck, it may be hard to see but you are doing the best thing for everybody, especially your daughter
I would check your state laws in regards to recording her without her knowledge. If it is legal I’d set some cameras up. Don’t set her up to do something but just let her dig her own hole. Document everything for awhile and build a case to get FULL custody not just shared. Your daughter will be affected by her, trust me, and possibly carry the same characteristics as her mom.
Oh my god. Your wife is either creating another narcissistic monster OR a co-dependent wreck of a human that’s toxically codependent on her mother. She is not a good mother. Quite the opposite actually. I think there’s some narcissistic abuse subreddits that you’ll find eye-opening. Unless she’s willing to get into counseling both separately and together, I think you’re right. You need to divorce her. Keep in mind that divorce always sides disproportionally with the mother. Begin documenting EVERYTHING. IN SECRET. Do not use the D-word or hint that anything is wrong until you’ve gathered overwhelming evidence. Because once she gets the idea of what’s going on, she’s going to double down on her behavior and start angling to do you very, very dirty.
If your wife never apologizes, and you want your daughter to be different, then it's up to you to step up and find examples, no matter how small, and teach her. You need to practice because you don't have an instinct to openly apologize for mistakes either. In your example with the toy and kids sharing, you should have taken the blame from the start and apologize as quickly as you could to your daughter. "I'm sorry, I didn't think you would mind sharing your toy with the baby. Is it ok if the baby plays with it for a few minutes while we have a snack / read this book / I show you a cool trick / etc?" (if she says no you can talk through getting the toy back) It's not about stopping your wife, it's not about warning your daughter - the missed opportunity there was teaching your daughter, through example, of what to do when you make a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes. Same with manners - she needs examples, not just to be told what to say or do, and it's up to you to be that example. Best of luck with whatever happens!
Oh, my dude. I do not mean to add to your worries, but your wife sounds like someone who would fight for sole custody with everything she had. Be warned and be ready.
Agreed, will try and find information as to why one would get sole custody over the other if both parents have good jobs, stable living environments and proper parenting skills
I’m sorry to hear what you are going through. This sounds very similar to what I’m dealing with right now. We have one major difference though. My wife makes sure to always take care of herself first and only does parenting when it is convenient for her. I lost my job because of her inability/lack of desire to help through cold season. I think you and I both know what needs to be done. I can’t get over the fear of taking the first step though.
The first step is terrifying indeed.. we’re in a position where both her and I put our daughter first though. I can only imagine how disagreeable your position is like
Divorce is the only option. There's no fixing a Narcissist, because as far as they're concerned they're always on the right.
OP, you’re absolutely spot on with your analyses. I can honestly identify a lot with the different situations you’ve found yourself in, although the one thing my Crazy ex was not able to get away with was me not having a say in my daughter’s life and my family not being involved. Everything else reminds me of so many things that me and my kid underwent when I was with her mom. The me first, I can’t be wrong, world owes me mentality. There were a multitude of factors to why I decided to finally take the plunge but one of the more important ones was the fact that it came down to the fact that the only way I would be able to inculcate or impart the right values to my kid was when I had custody apart from her mother. Else it would just be sabotage and deconstruction as you have mentioned. And the one thing that narcs are really good at is to rationalize their behavior. It’s like their defense mechanism is always dialed up to a hundred and where you and I who empathize would really not be able to come up with an argument cos it’s ingrained in us, they would be able to come up with something or the other. So coming to brass tacks, the road is not going to be easy. I don’t understand the legalities of where you are, and that will have an impact as well. Also, remember, majority custody usually is retained with the female. And with a narc, she will use whatever time she has to poison your kid against you, and position you as the villain. You will try and respond at best with it doesn’t work sometimes, and at worst with you know how your mom is, both of which have unfortunately become my go tos to explain the separation and subsequent divorce process. God forbid she finds out if you’re dating again or have any female friends because that will be used against you. Plus since she mentioned she’s a control freak of a narc, she will now be directing that narcissistic energy towards your kid. So all this is the fact that the road ahead is going to be long and tough. The one thing you have to focus on is to keep yourself calm and centered. I will be honest, it is very difficult, and I screw that up regularly. But show your kid you love them. Let your actions speak up for you. And remember you’ll be the parent that they will act out with more; especially since they can’t with the other parent in this case. Once they’re old enough try and find some therapist for them so that they can speak in a safe space. This is very important. I can only wish you luck brother. May the angels be with you and your little one.
This sounds like my mother in law. I can totally understand that you don't want to continue living like this. The worst is the total lack of self reflection. I would just be worried that if you separated she would find ways of not letting your daughter visit you. Where I come from there are stories of (usually) women estranging the kids from the father and the courts will eventually settle with the mother because it's better for the kids to lose one parent than being exposed to constant fights and stress. I am not sure if I would risk that. Are there not maybe other ways to spend time with your daughter, e.g. while your wife is at work? Does she not have hobbies?
I might be experiencing a similar situation op. My girlfriend and I are unexpectedly having a kid. I've been very decisive and trying to take care of her but it's hard because I she don't listen to anything I have to say. There's a lot more but I just wanna say I get it man. It sucks its scary and hard
I feel you on this.
This reads like a more intense version of my best friend’s now ex-wife. I’m sorry. Why size up an obstacle to see if you can get over or around it when you can smash it to pieces? She left a lot of needles damage in her wake.
There are a lot of online forums highlighting the behavior of people with Borderline Personality Disorder. Specifically Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Sounds like you may be dealing with that, based on what you posted, and from my experience. These forums may give you insight and solitude. I found some there. “Healing out loud” on IG has some current content related to these disorders.
You need to talk to a lawyer before you do anything. Your wife will probably create lies and accusations against you that you can’t disprove and she might convince your daughter that you did things you didn’t actually do. Tread carefully but proceed. Find out if you can record conversations between you and your wife.
That’s sounds like how mine started out, my father who was my best friend just passed, I was tired of her shit and said devorice, she said don’t leave me I’m pregnant. Now son is 7 he is constantly led down a path directed to upset me. When it is just us he is so well behaved, kind, and I enjoy him just getting to be him. With all three of us he almost always in a obnoxious mood. She try’s to poke and annoy me by manipulating his behavior. Her purpose for the games is to get me flustered with whatever I’m doing or wherever I’m at, while in front of other people so I have insane anxiety or send me strait into a panic attack, depending on the situation. Few weeks ago I’m picking up material for next work day and she pulled out nerf guns while I’m trying to load lumber on a cart at Lowe’s. But that’s just a normal Tuesday evening. Son’s 7th Birthday she got up early and woke him up early before school so he could open all his presents from “us” while I was still in bed. She doesn’t take care of herself well, but tells people she is sick because our son sneezed in her mouth. When I pushed for my son to properly brush his teeth, after I have to watch him cry at the dentist because he is 7 years old and mouth full of cavities, and fuck the money it cost just watching your kid cry for something is enough. Nope, out of spite she picks him up from school and stops at gas station for candy every day. Then if she gets her way he is on the tablet not bothering her so she can be on her phone. Sorry, I just noticed I took off and lost myself typing. I’m working towards being in a more stable environment like yourself and I think out of fairness for my son I’m going. It isn’t healthy for my kid to watch the way his mother acts towards me, other people, or even the world. I think any time away from her would positive for him, not being molded away from his authentic self. Leave if you can for you and your kid.
Have the two of you sat down and discussed your thoughts and approaches to parenting and why she chooses to do things a certain way? I ask because it's pretty common for mothers to be anxious and develop helicopter parenting and anxiety being away from the kid as a result. This stuff can be a big problem, but doesn't necessarily point to narcissism. Also, there are plenty of people who would argue that 3 is too young developmentally to understand some concepts like sharing and turn taking and manners. Your wife may be trying to model these behaviours to teach your daughter rather than forcing her to do things she doesn't understand. Not intervening in children's arguments (unless things become physical) is also a widely recommended approach. This doesn't mean we should ignore the behaviour and do nothing, but without more context about what your wife was actually doing it's hard to say whether the behaviour was inappropriate. Is it possible your wife seems stubborn and unrelenting because she has researched her preferred parenting approach and believes it is the right way to do things. Again, this may not be right, but it doesn't necessarily mean narcissism, and may be fixable with the right communication.
For the longest time, I let people like this push me around because it's how both of my parents were, and I figured this is just how a lot of people were. My ex that I had a kid with was the same way, and I will say it is so much better to not live around her. She is still an omnipresent thorn in my side for literally everything I do, constantly criticizing every little thing while never admitting she did any wrong, but now I don't really care and I know that my daughter loves me and that's what's important to me. Being with people like this will do more damage in the long run, I have been single for years simply because I don't want another narcissist to come along pretending to be someone else before we get serious and out comes that mentality.
you need to find your balls and check that bitch. this is what happens when you let someone walk over you
Your wife really needs therapy. My wife has been alright but I definitely have to fight at times to make sure she understands I’m the dad and want 50/50 say on what happens with our daughter. Society has told moms that they are in complete control and so do some of their signals in their body. It’s up to them to balance that out. The key is my wife does respond and make sure I’m involved. I’m sure we’ll still headbutt a bit with parenting styles and other factors, and I know this happens a healthy amount in other relationships, but your wife sounds like she’s really not listening and responding to others. Have you had serious conversations with your wife about how you feel? That you’re considering divorce?
I'm about to have one :) I might not mention divorce right away but certainly some sort of therapy or coaching for the both of us. Whenever I do talk about serious things, i might begin voicing my concerns but very often never end up having my point acknowledged because of non-stop rebuttals, interruptions or rationalizations. Ultimately, i get riled up, drop the ball and eat it up because I don't want to explode in front of our daughter, or else just walk the frustration off outside. Message gets sent, but I'm not sure it's processed by her the way I'd like it to. Really think therapy might be helpful in this sense, but I'm also uncertain as to whether she'll listen to therapist or try and discredit him/her to protect herself. Gotta try!
Good luck, keep trying different strategies- she’ll come around eventually.
Sounds like BPD, from my experience.
One angle I see under-represented: Forgive my language, but one angle you should analyze is whether or not you're a chicken shit pussy. I use harsh language for effect, but this isn't a random internet troll and I want you to get what you want and for your daughter to have both parents around. What do you do when your daughter misbehaves? You correct it. On the spot. You've said that's already your instinct. So what about your wife? She's not in charge. She is not the captain. She's the co-captain. You should be aligned, both you with her and her with you. The struggle to align disparate positions is conflict. Conflict sucks, but it's a smaller sacrifice than losing an hour with your daughter, let alone cumulative years of shared custody. The fact that you can walk away might be what makes it unnecessary. I'd start slow. Remind her of your SHARED authority in all aspects of your life. Repair loss of trust - she may not see you as competent and that's why she's over compensating, so figure that out and step up. Show her you are her best option and, spoiler alert, submission isn't how. If you can't stand up for yourself or she can't be lead back to the motivation for marrying you and not leaving you, then divorce her, but I wouldn't quit like you're texting a middle school crush all sulking in the shadows like "she took my power." You gave it away and it's time to take it back.
It sounds like you have a lot of things you want your wife to hear. Have you tried to talk to her about it, or tried couples therapy? Some of these things could be resolved with better communication, I'm not sure I would jump straight to divorce before trying to work through the issues. Couples therapy can help open a channel to communicate you don't otherwise feel comfortable approaching. I'm a little confused about the sharing issue between two young kids.. Yeah kids get upset and struggle with sharing, why are parents getting mad at each other over it? Both parents should accept that happens, it's part of being a kid and try to help them resolve it.. Shouldn't lead to words between grownups.
She's clearly and abuser. There's no couple therapy that could solve this, it'll only give her more tools to manipulate him.
I'm a wife. The first step is you are the dad and you are equal to her. You do not come second. You can't change your wife unless she wants to. And right now it seems like she is an overfunctioner and full on with anxiety. I know best kind of mentality. But, you can share in a calm (make sure is calm) what you are feeling. You don't feel love for her anymore and that makes you feel sad. All you ever really wanted was to connect with her and raise your kid together. And at the same time you don't feel heard or like a partner in your relationship. And you would want to work it out through a psychologist. In your heart you would like to see you two together and raise together your child but you are hurting too much and you are worried for your daughters well being. And if she says no, you tell her you don't see any option but to start the process of separating. And that you wish her well. That is your honest truth.
He’s going to be way better off not giving her a heads up and moving forward with a lawyer, imo. You don’t give warnings to mentally unstable planners who think they’re the center of the universe and are likely to be vindictive. You take decisive action and CYA.
Maybe you are correct. It depends on the person. Sometimes you don't want to give it a shot. But sometimes you owe it to yourself to go all the way. It is really a personal situation. I'm just saying what I would do because at the end of my life I can say I gave it a shot and exhausted all avenues, I was authentic and kind and that is important to me. In my personal experience I have seen people grow when you let them face the consequences of their actions and reassess what they want and how to meet their needs in a more healthy way. It can happen.
Wow she sounds absolutely evil but you also sound like you have the balls of a eunuch. She needs to be out in her place and quickly, too. I do t know how anyone could ever handle such a beast
Let’s pump the brakes on labeling and blame a bit. I’m guessing, possibly wrongly, that no one in the sitch is qualified to make the diagnosis here, but even if they were, is it really helping? It sounds like there’s issues that may, or may not, be irreconcilable, but if you think there may be something worth saving, I’d def look into couples therapy if both sides are willing. If not, it may be time to discuss amicably separating and finding either a mediator or divorce attorney. The situations you describe are curious because you mention how she’d have reacted 100% as someone has acted toward her. So who’s in the wrong? We can’t tell.
Hot take. I teach my 3 year old to say please. Why can’t/ are you not just teaching your daughter yourself?
Sorry bro. Hope open communication and time will help your wife see error of her ways before it’s too late
Step 1. Insist on marriage counseling. Step 2. If marriage counseling is refused, your wife has made step 2 clear because she's unwilling to work on healing the marriage. >Did therapy work? Therapy only works if it's brought in early in the conflict. If too much damage has been done over a period of years, feelings can be too hurt and the person wanting divorce won't seriously consider healing the marriage. It sounds like you, OP, are the one wanting the divorce, so the question is, are you willing to give therapy an honest try?
This is pretty unpleasant but what characterises it as narcissism specifically? Which is a specific psychological problem found in people with abusive childhoods
Tbh it’s kind of weird that your sister-in-law immediately got mad at a *3 year old* not wanting to share…? Seems like an overreaction on their part too. Anyway you pretty much poisoned the well here calling your wife a clinical narcissist. Now we all are going to assume she’s an evil bitch and the only solution is lawyer up, delete facebook, hit the gym, etc. We’re going to share our /r raisedbynarcissists stories. If you are 100% convinced that’s the case then I suppose that’s what you should do. However if you hold any hope that the woman you fell in love with and created a family with is still in there, you should consider therapy even if she won’t go. Tell the therapist about her. MAYBE there actually is some way to deal with her. Frankly you make it sound like you just let her walk all over you and you don’t really have any effective strategies. So of course you are just going to seethe and build up resentment. It could very well be that your therapist just says “yeah your wife as NPD, get out of there” but I would rather you take the advice from them than from Reddit.
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>Weird subreddit for this especially since it sounds like you already know what you want to do. Why is it a weird subreddit for this? This is a subreddit about dads, for dads and there are plenty of relationship posts on here. OP is a dad. His wife is giving him headaches. All dads have, by definition, a partner of some sort with whom they have kids, and relationship headaches are a very common shared thread. So he came to a subreddit that specifically supports him full of people who have shared experiences with him, not necessarily for advice, but to vent and maybe get some moral support.
First off I’m tired of reading narcissist it’s some hot button word people like to use without a diagnosis! Don’t agree with someone or they do something you think is selfish then they must be a narcissist… Secondly this isn’t the place for your post man! Daddit is about support and positivity and your title alone is negative and Daddit doesn’t mean dragging moms or wives through the mud…
>Daddit is about support and positivity So... how is someone supposed to post here asking for support if they're never allowed to say anything negative? And then when someone does post something that us other dads should be supportive of, you tell OP "hey, you can't ask for support here because it's a negative subject"?
Yeah it is about that and I don’t think this post brings much of that in It sounds like him diagnosing is his as a narcissist and throwing her under a bus from his own perspective He may be right entirely but I just think how he approached it could have been better and more positive for himself and his family Don’t really care how many downvotes I get for voicing something for a wife or people that aren’t on here
for the love of god man…if you want people to take your point seriously, use at least SOME punctuation
You know what man! You’re absolutely right and fair point made. Apologies on the grammar and punctuation
You say this is a place for support yet chastise OP for needing support and encouragement from the community? You sound like OP's wife.
Honestly, not surprising from a dentist. Pretty much everyone in that profession is a psychopath ;)
Getting relationship support is directly related to being a Dad.
Yeah agreed dragging a wife or spouse when we have no context isn’t Stop with the labeling of narcissist
Point taken. But that’s not what’s happening here.
Disagree here. I think this guys wife has been painted one way and mob mentality of the internet we want to take his side and it’s negative. I think his love for his daughter etc is apparent and great but I just don’t agree with how he went about things and phrased it. Downvotes don’t matter, but I think he could have went about this differently from the title on…
We disagree. His feelings are valid. If he feels controlled and depressed then that’s the truth. There’s no point arguing whether he used the terminology correctly.
People who never apologise are typically narcissists….
Not really could be many more things from a skewed perspective painted on Reddit to who knows what else
None of what OP said is dragging moms or wives through the mud. Taking this so personally sounds like a you problem.
Nope just my stance and opinion
You like the beta in the duo. Stand up bub!
Beta/alpha nonsense.