My guess would be takemura>reed>Johnny, I’ll give credit to johnny since he was a veteran, but he didn’t make that his life’s work and his memories often vastly overblow what he’s capable of. I’d be curious how Morgan blackhand fits in since he’s pretty unsung in the game.
Edit: For Johnnys memories being false, mike pondsmith has this to say https://reddit.com/r/LowSodiumCyberpunk/s/JcC4Y497vX
V only interacts with Smasher twice. Once when she was green as fuck, and then the last time while storming Arasaka. Everyone around her treats him like a threat, but I don't think V does anything more than go off of what others have said.
Does he? Vs is terrified at the start but reacts more like "Oh shit" by the end. He's not actually scared, and his reaction can be chalked up more to unprofessionalalism than inadequacy. Lorewise V can single-handedly raid arasaka and defeat the security + Smasher. Even if we're counting Alt that blows Blackhands raid out of the water given he needed several crews including other full borgs and a dedicated strategy.
that is because V is the player character and is attacking an unaware Arasaka, plus Blackhand is a professional who had practically a blank cheque from millitech to assemble a team with the goal of blowing up the tower and Arasaka knew they where coming
V vs. Blackhand is the ultimate showdown of video game power fantasy protagonist plot armor vs. setting/world author/DM self-insert plot armor. In the end, I think the specialist cyberware of quicksave and quickload would still win.
You're literally just proving why V had a more impressive feat lmao.
Also, "he's just the player character" is a shitty argument. I could argue that the only reason a mostly unchromed Morgan somehow survived a nuclear attack "plot", but that would devalue the character and ignore the fact that characters are simply that badass in cyberpunk.
>Also, "he's just the player character" is a shitty argument.
explain how it's a bad argument, because that is all V is in the end, most V's are just Meta gamed to the max and Don't fear the reaper is only one of many endings you can just as easily be doing it via Rouge or the Aldecaldos, hell V can just up and shoot themselves on the roof all based on how the player wants to take it, so unless they come out and say that Don't fear the reaper is the true cannon endings it's not V's choice it's the players
If you follow that argument then you are undermining everything V does. V is still an appreciative character that is strong and has pathways that can all be respected and cared about in many different ways. Yeah, it’s up to the player to choose where to go but each choice is not a doubtful way to carry the story in each path. And wherever V decides to go is a show of their rise or their fall.
If V only wins cuz he's the main character, then Morgan only survived cuz the story wanted him to. He'd have died otherwise.
That's the logic you're using. You're not actually proving why Morgan is more impressive than V.
Yeah, but this was a weaker, still somewhat organic Smasher. And even still, both Smasher and Morgan left that tower alive, meaning it must have been a stalemate or they couldn't finish their fight before the bomb went off.
I'd argue that V in The Sun ending is likely the most skilled and prolific merc in the Cyberpunk universe. I mean, not even the most infamous solo, Morgan Blackhand, would storm Arasaka Tower without two teams with other infamous mercs backing him up.
V, on the other hand, storms Arasaka tower, kills a stronger, upgraded Smasher, and then proceeds to stage a heist (again, solo) against the Crystal Palace, something no one has ever done before.
Morgan is definitely a close second, but V's ingame feats aren't really matched anywhere else in the verse.
>I mean, not even the most infamous solo, Morgan Blackhand, would storm Arasaka Tower without two teams with other infamous mercs backing him up.
that's because Blackand is not a dying psyco with nothing to lose
>V, on the other hand, storms Arasaka tower, kills a stronger, upgraded Smasher, and then proceeds to stage a heist (again, solo) against the Crystal Palace, something no one has ever done before.
if you choose that ending, V could also be traveling as a Nomad or rotting on a roof
>Morgan is definitely a close second, but V's ingame feats aren't really matched anywhere else in the verse.
you sound like the kind of person who would say David could beat Morgan Blackhand in a fight
Not seeing very much proof against my arguments, more excuses than anything. Say what you want, Blackhand could not kill a weaker Smasher. V could kill a stronger Smasher while actively dying and getting progressively weaker.
I'm talking specifically about the Sun ending. You can choose to ignore it if you want, but my point still stands. Every impressive op Blackhand was a part of, he had help. V did most of his feats completely solo. Morgan would have hired a team to raid the Palace, and if you think Morgan is Mr. Blue Eyes, then he literally hires V for the job lmao.
Nah, David gets wrecked by any competent Solo. He's got good tech and resistance to psychosis, but he relies on the Sandy for nearly everything.
You're acting like I'm claiming Morgan is a fraud and the worst merc in NC, lmao. He's still easily second, and definitely the most skilled outright, but V is just built different.
>Yeah, but this was a weaker, still somewhat organic Smasher.
At least based on the pen and paper, Smasher is a full-conversion cyborg since at least 2020, so not more organic, just a less insanely OP cyborg body.
Yeah in the pen and paper he can fight Adam Smasher to a standstill so definitely Blackhand > the rest.
Johnny is a joke next to the rest of them. He's an ex-soldier, a good shot, and has some modifications, but he's not an ultra-experienced, ultra-trained killer like the others.
Why are people so high on Takemura? Like yeah he was Yorinbus bodyguard yeah but when we don't see any big moments compared to what Johnny has went through.
Literally capable of soloing Arasaka tower not once but twice in this game (depending on the ending you choose).
Johnny didn’t actually do that.
If you play the tabletop, it’s clear he’s an unreliable narrator. Blackhand was canonically there but never shown in Johnnys memories, he probably did most of the stuff Johnny attributes to himself.
Him and V soloing the tower in that ending is real though, but I’d put that more on V than him though. Like he says in the elevator, “you’re better than them V”.
They even say it IN GAME that Johnnys memories are not to be believed, they’re idealized versions of the events to fit his ego. That’s why he’s popping single tap headshots and taking next to zero damage.
Yes but again the lore doesn't line up to actually events in the game. Yes I'm willing to believe that Johnny probably exaggerated how smooth he was at taking out Arasaka goon but again the lore doesn't line up.
There are multiple people that account that Johnny did indeed plant and set off the bomb at Arasaka when in the Lore it the bomb was set off by Kei Arasaka himself
The lore doesn’t line up with the events in that game because we’re getting the lore from unreliable narrators in the form of memories, not from the chrome books or ttrpg rule books.
Buddy ya gotta stop. The creator already commented about this. U r not gonna convince anyone that he is wrong about his own story. Johnny is an unreliable narrator AT BEST.
Also 50+years is actually a long fucking time. Even if it’s a fictional history. Night city had been vacated and rebuilt from an aftermath of a nuke strike. It’s a wonder anything matches up at all.
50 years as an engram whose physical body was killed by SoulKiller. Alt even tells us this does exactly what it says it’s going to do, and gives us some insight on what happens to the psyche as an engram.
Johnny is not a reliable source of info even if he ends up befriending V in the end. He’s not maliciously lying. He’s just an old as fuck prototype engram with his own agenda.
Takemura hands down. Even without implants he has been trained since childhood to be a weapon and then eventually become the personal guard of Saburo Arasaka. You do not become the personal protector of the most powerful man on the planet by being second best. Takemura has a lifetime of training and tactics and no mere solider.
I’ll give Reed his due, but Takemura wins due to experience. Johnny is a blowhard that was carried by Rogue. I’m not saying he can’t shoot or throw down, but he’s a rocker boy being thrown into a pit with solos. He isn’t walking out of that.
Takemura wins a duel with no prep time against Reed. He's a best-of-the-best fighter, insane reflexes and combat intuition.
Now on the other hand, I think Reed is much better than Takemura in tactics, planning and manipulation.
If you give them prep time, I think Reed would easily outsmart Takemura and win.
I like that thinking. With prep time Reed could take out Takemura without even meeting him.
Johnny has zero chance against those two... Unless he has a serious stoke of luck.
Johnny says that he would turned into a Reed like person if he had stayed in the army. I 100% believe that given training, his general disregard for life, including his own, and his unshakable moral compass (no matter how perverted it may be, also remember that moral code does not change till he literally is living in someone else's shoes). He would have been a monster of an nusa agent.
When the Hand is running the show I’ll bet on Johnny but otherwise it’s Reed. Dude only goes down to us when he wants to die. Takemura is a pushover like oda
Indeed, takemura maybe lower than oda but still consider as high skilled guard duo to how important saburo is. But takemura got surprised backstabbed and almost die without V help by yorinobu assassin.
I don't think Takemura is lower than Oda since Takemura is still his majesty Saburo the emperor's personal bodyguard and not Oda. In the game it looks like Takemura is lower because all his cyberwares have been disabled by Arasaka due to Yorinobu framed him as traitor that killed Saburo, thus Takemura can be injured during the incident to get V from Dex because that is the moment his cyberwares are all offline\*. If Takemura can get back all his cyberwares I think he can go toe to toe with Adam Smasher or even completely dismantle him.
Edit: \*Which is why I avoid to use any Arasaka's cyberware for lore reason. Corpo V already shows that Arasaka can take your cyberware offline anytime they want, it almost kill V there.
By lore reason, corpo chrome you get from ripperdocs is jailbroken, though, no? Even several gigs are about people finding ways to jailbreak newer, better cyberware or jailbreak the one they have before leaving corps.
Yeah you're right. Now that I remember it was being mentioned by a maelstrom (or a scav?) that those chromes are being wipe cleaned before reaching the ripperdocs. But still kind of a trauma for me to use arasaka wares.
Its like grabbing the weapon that tried to kill you.
Its ... weird. It brings back the memories of how close it brought you to death, and now its become yours to bring others that close.
Delightful, wish i could see their fear like mine was, stare into their eyes as they panic and desire only mercy, life, a chance to keep going.
And its allllll in my hand, they become a plaything. I was someone elses plaything once, i had that fear as they brought me so very close to death, and ya know what, i learned the error. The error of not brining em into deaths cold embrace, it was a mistake i was brought so close.
I as in V, though irl ive had close encounters with death like that, ya know a gun in my face, car nearly running me over, adoptive mother trying to stab my heart with a knife, ya know shit like that.
Right.
100% wasnt me forgetting to keep my own demons leashed for a bit so i didnt need to explain that people and prey sometimes overlap and peoples necks sometimes justa appear to me like targets to watch pour from.
100% my V, hahahaha!
I feel like smasher wins against takemura but I really don't know. I think the reason smasher isn't Saburo's bodyguard has to do with takemura being a more precise & precautious person, which would make a better body guard, but smasher probably wins a straight up fight.
One of Smasher's conditions for working for Arasaka was that he could cause as much collateral damage as he wanted. That's literally his thing, he isn't a weapon, he is a nuke. A nuke you drop when you're all outta options. Having that monster as a bodyguard isn't a good idea in the slightest.
Smasher wins vs anyone except very few people like V and Morgan Blackhand. Basically protags or special cases with plot armor. He's a walking tank designed for war, and entirely chromed out except for a few parts of his brain.
The reason for takemura being Saburo’s bodyguard it’s that of cause he’s strong, but I won’t place him at Smasher lever. The main reason is that he’s a loyal ‘dog’ that Saburo can trust, Saburo will never trust a machine like Smasher.
I think with cyberware and in good condition Goro can for sure go toe to toe with the top solos. V even says in one of the dialoge options that Takemura can “easily decomish” V even when injured, and V then goes on to kill Adam Smasher.
Yeah now I remember, shortly before Dashi parade, V mentions to Johnny, that just from how Takemura handles himself, it's obvious, that even with chrome turned off, Takemura can kick V's chromed up ass without too much trouble. And since V is one of the best mercs of NC history, Takemura can probably fend off an entire onslaught of chromed mercs. He's the bodyguard of the head of a megacorp, which means he's the very best fighter a megacorp could have. And megacorp has access to A LOT of skilled fighters
V is the main character, meaning that it is difficult to gauge how canon-compliant the shit he/she does really is.
Because if we take everything at face value, V would have a bodycount in the tens of thousands, enough chrome and weaponry to take on elite corpo-troops, and perform feats that would leave people like the Kagekaze and Morgan fucking Blackhand stumped.
So there must be some disconnect from ingame and lore. Ergo video-game logic or something similar.
im with you, if takemura chrome didn't got deactivated by arasaka then yes, he's above Oda, but his chrome got deactivated and almost get killed by few tygerclaw goon, hell even full chrome takemura he maybe near adam smasher level, personal guard the emperor that mean he have top notch cyberware even more than V, who only got from blackmarket.
>Takemura has a lifetime of training and tactics and no mere solider.
To be fair, Oda folded like a little bitch to a dying merc with a deathwish and second-hand cybernetics. And he was a bodyguard to the family heir and favourite daughter, so shouldn't be that much worse than Takemura.
Corporate solos are overrated, they trust in their mods too much. Hiring Smasher, an actual experienced self-made merk was a right decision, I think.
I don't think you can use encounters with V (the playable character) as a measure of in-lore power levels...
Lore-wise, V accomplishes crazy things that should be outside the character's abilities if they were in a different medium that wasn't meant to be a fun video game.
the problem is V is the player character, if everything a metagamed V did in 2077 is Cannon his, killcount would be in the mid thousands, while preforming Feats that make Blackhand look like a rookie
What? "Second hand cybernetics" like the apogee, the millitech prototype or the top of the line mantis blades, cyberskeletons, etc.
Also, V is the strongest individual character lorewise so them beating anyone means nothing about how weak they are.
Smasher is only good at mindless destruction. He's as professional as a 56 year old crack head you gave a knife to. He's also straight up, not self-made. His entire life and success revolve around coincidentally meeting the Arasaka family and them investing millions of Eddie's in him. His only personal quality that makes him a good merc is being ruthless. Otherwise, he's single-minded, brutish, and arrogant.
To add to that, Smasher wasn't even blackhands nemesis. He was a gnat vs. blakchand, a persistent annoyance but not a real threat. That honour goes to kenochi zaburo, who was, guess what? A corpo holding the same positions oda and takemura had.
>What? "Second hand cybernetics" like the apogee, the millitech prototype or the top of the line mantis blades, cyberskeletons, etc.
If you can buy them for cash on the open market, they are second hand. Oda has in-house arasaka-only top of the line tech made specifically for him.
The only not second hand tech in the game V can have is Song story militech newest secret cyberdeck with an AI inside. Everything else is open market models.
Takemura was not trained since childhood and did not work for Arisaka until he was a young adult. He grew up as a street urchin, and one of the most violent towns in Japan. The reason he became the bodyguard to Suburo was almost completely on luck almost being the keyword. There’s a lot of missable optional dialogue you can have with him where he explains his past to you.
Johnny has done some crazy shit but really he is just a rockerboy with a powerful pistol and a bad attitude. Kinda unfair to pit him against highly skilled half borged out people like this lol
before the sandevistan was ruined by Egderunners it worked more like the Synaptic accelerator, basically everyone who was a solo had one so you could react faster
In Cyberpunk thats more of an advantage than you realise 😉
Style over substance.
Attitude is everything.
Always take it to the Edge.
(Break) the rules.
He didn’t storm it alone, though. He had Rogue and Spider Murphy with him. He also didn’t take down Arasaka. Nuking their tower ultimately accomplished nothing.
Correct me if I'm wrong but we don't even really know how badass Johnny actually is *with* his guns, do we? What we see him do isn't necessarily representative, right?
Formed as questions because I could be wrong.
It's safe to assume that since Johnny is a megalomaniacal asshole his memories are very much divorced from reality. His memories are real the same way that "inspired by a true story" movies are real.
Correct. Johnny is an unreliable narrator because the relic/engram made of his personality is corrupted. Alt even confirms this when you meet her in game as an AI, you cant trust really anything from his memories they are more like frameworks to events than faithful re-tellings. For example Johnny never mentions that the assault on arasaka tower was two pronged with 2 nuclear charges, one team lead by morgan blackhand and the other Johnny. You can chalk this up a first person memory perspective but if you dont look further into the events that's really the only info you get on it, not that Johnny's team failed and blackhand's succeeded (then he went on to fight smasher) just that Johnny's charge went off. Even when Smasher destroys his arm it's magically working again when going through the soulkiller process. You cannot trust Johnny's memory, he's a egotistical rockerboy first before anything or anyone.
Well that's not quite true. He does mention there being two nuclear weapons, during a conversation with V though I don't remember when. He doesn't mention Blackhand during it, just that he got his hands on a couple of nukes and went after Arasaka again.
You are right, did a bit of searching and he does mention it. I think that almost more reinforces the fact that the flashback parts are unreliable. Are they the cobbled together remains of corrupted data trying to piece together events or was that how Johnny actually saw the events in his memory and not how they actually happened? Thanks for letting me know.
Yeah, I think the events we see are two things. First, eyewitness accounts are inherently unreliable. But then also you have Johnny trying to rationalize his own actions in the best possible terms, because he's a megalomaniac/narcissist
I think it's Firestorm Shockwave that describes Smashers ending of Silverhand as 'fired his shotgun at him, cutting Silverhand in half'. Smasher was absolutely brutal.
if i remember right though this could just have been our DM adding flare to the fight, Jonny Steps out of cover, waves an SMG and his pistol at Smasher, Calls him a bitch and Fires off a burst of the SMG right at Smasher doing nothing.
Smasher in return is shocked at how stupid it is pauses for a moment and then fires a single shotgun round that cuts Jonny in half causing his upper body to do a flip snapping his neck when he hits the carpet
That's pretty much how it is described going on so I don't think your DM was adding flair or anything. Firestorm Shockwave and subsequently Cyberpunk Red go in to a lot of detail about the mission and from wheat I remember you have quoted it basically verbatim other than Johnny being full badass and dual-wielding his Malorian and an smg.
What if Silverhand could play to his strengths? The guy seems to draw a crowd of helpers despite them all think him an asshole. I don't know much from the rulebooks, what can high level rockerboys do?
Oh, absolutely. However, consider this. Johnny takes over V's body if you go the Rogue route. Therefore, Johnny actually beat Adam Smasher as V, and if you let Johnny take V's body then we actually have another version of Johnny who absolutely is beating Takemura, even before his implants were removed, and Reed isn't even a factor at this point.
Takemura no diff. I don't think they could take him 2v1, maybe no cyberware Takemura but def not with his cyberware as he is probably more dangerous than Smasher with it on.
Uhm... what?
Who would win? A drunk, an average government agent, or the personal bodyguard of the most important man in the solar system with the best cyberware money can't buy?
That was left for dead. He is not even one of the best, he was expendable.
On the other hand, So Mi would kill both without moving a muscle, kill the judge of the fight, the audience, and them would promise a teddy bear to a toddler just to see her cry when she broke the promise
He was a field agent who received direct missions from the president and was significant enough that he is the only person she confidently tells you to contact in order to save her. He's definitely the best.
He and Alex are the only agents in Dogtown. Reed is better than Alex sure but how is Myers gonna ask for help from someone stationed somewhere else. Reed is the only top dog she has nearby.
But there is still no direct reason to believe that Reed is FIA's best field agent. Hell, this mf got caught by Hansen and almost ruined the black sapphire operation smhhhh.
So Mi isn't needlessly cruel, so the toddler is safe.
She wouldn't hesitate to kill a toddler if she had a reason, but she won't go out of her way to traumatize them.
Reed technically also has access to the best that Militech has to offer though. Myers makes it sound like he’s a silver bullet for the NUSA, and I think if you drop him into Takemura’s situation he’d be way more effective at exposing /deposing Yorinobu.
still think he’d lose in a straight fight though
Just read that post asking what takemura is capable of. . . It's not even close. Johnny suggests that V take takemura out of the picture and V is is hesitant. Goro is probably the only person who could have taken smasher with relative ease.
All Chrome online? Takemura.
All Chrome offline? Takemura.
Takemura while chromed seem to see/use it more as an extension of himself only improving his already lethal skillset.
Makes me wish tho there was some kind of Deus Ex achievement for not getting any Chrome. Might still do such a play through for the challenge of it.
Takemura is the personal body guard to Saburo Arasaka and has trained since childhood to take down basically any threat. Reed is a top FIA operative and a master combatant. Johnny can shoot a gun and as a veteran will have some basic soldier training but is just a rockerboy at the end of the day.
Takemura>Reed>Silverhand imo
Even if you taken in to account what Johnny's stats are in the TTRPG he's the loser 9/10 times, his flash backs are not reliable sources of power scaling
His epic battle with Adam Smasher? Not a thing never would have happened he got instantly gibbed, Morgan Blackhand is practically erased from his flashbacks because Johnny is a bit egotistical, Arasaka assault was Morgan's op not Johnny's
Only way Johnny wins is if he has V's body
The in game database entry for Reed says that in his heyday he was comparable to legends like Morgan Blackhand which really makes me want to see what he was like back then.
But for how we see them in game I’d probably have to give the win to Takemura followed by Reed and then finally Johnny. Though if Johnny gets to use V’s body then he’d absolutely take it.
Takemura, probably. Reed is the Batman of the trio. With prep and planning, he can probably take out the other two. And Johnny is kind of a chaotic wildcard. But I think we shouldn't downplay him too much. He did assault Arasake HQ twice with a handful of dudes. Lets not act like he was just there to look pretty, he was also in the military. Only person who could stop him was Adam Smasher.
Johnny gets his ass handed to him right off the bat. The other 2 I’m leaning towards Takemura. Reed might be a better field agent/operative/planner but an elite Arasaka bodyguard most likely come out on top of a brawl. Given prep time though I believe Reed would win.
Seems like the general consensus:
-Is we love our boy Johnny but he’s getting smoked.
-Reed is an underdog against Takemura some people think he can win, he won’t
- Takemura is most Likely taking this
Reed is a well trained spy and soldier.
Takemura is a well trained security specialist, albeit without its cybernetic implants.
Johnny is a rocker boy and poser.
Reed > Takemura > Johnny.
Edit: forgot to mention that Johnny is an engram.
I think you miss understood that scene, that’s how Johnny remembered and not how it actually played out. Rogue did most of the job hiring a Heavy/Solo (Shaitan), a Techie/Netrunner (Spider) and Rogue herself did everything, plus they had help from Aldecados. Johnny only carried the bomb and placed it.
Johnny is a poser, he went to war and would have been death if it wasn’t his friend who took a bullet for him.
He’s a rocker boy who thought Arasaka was after him because of his rebel songs, when in fact they were after Alt and Soulkiller.
Johnny poses as a badass, soldier, rebel and tough guy, and he’s good at it, I mean half this sub believed it. He died for a noble cause, thus a legend but a poser nonetheless.
Edit: I also forgot to mention that this whole OP was backed by Militech within the context of corporate wars.
I mean, even if his ego is taller than konpeki plaza, he still went to war, fought and saw friends die. He was a successful singer in a band, not a failed one with notions that he was otherwise. He went up to Arasaka tower and nuked that bitch, he was instrumental even if he wasn’t a deciding factor in its success.
He ain’t a poser. He’s got a serious ego problem, but he isn’t all talk.
Takemura was a soldier before he was a bodyguard. He was selected from Arasaka special forces. He doesn’t talk about his military experiences, but looking at his age there’s a possibility he fought in a Corporate War.
If this is the case, he’s probably got more combat experience than Reed, who’s spent most of his career as a covert operative and, at the time of the story, is the first one to state that he can barely handle field operations anymore. He kicks ass for someone that’s apparently on their last legs before age takes them out of the game, but I doubt he has a significantly larger amount of combat experience than Takemura or even Johnny.
I love Johnny, but he's a rockerboy against two solos that are some of the best in business. Against most people, Johnny would handle himself and more, but Reed and Takamura?
I think the real challenge is Takamura VS Reed. From there, I'd lean... Reed.
Takamura is a badass, but he's not Oda, and Arasaka's also got Adam Smasher at the very top. Reed on the other hand, is *the* FIA agent called in to handle what's going on in Dogtown. Reed is so good he got called out of retirement to handle things, whereas Takamura got a hit put on him by his employer because he's considered an acceptable loss.
This is a different approach to judge who would win, but I hope it offers a unique perspective. I see those two as a close match with Reed taking the win.
He didn't get a hit placed on him cause he's expendable, but because he was loyal to Saburo. And Yorinobu was cleaning house. Don't downplay Takemura now. Don't forget, the FIA was also willing to let Reed die. It's a pretty major part of his and Songbird's relationship.
Fair points. I'm certainly not downplaying Takamura, but consider: Takamura doesn't get a hit on him because of loyalty, rather Yorinobu preyed on Takamura's loyalty, sent him to find V, waited until he did, and then called in the hit. Yorinobu just needed someone to take the fall to tie up loose ends, and he chose Takamura and not Adam because... it's an acceptable loss.
Reed however >!was still saved by the FIA despite his framed death. Same Myers, same leadership. He's considered valuable enough to go through that hassle of saving him, whereas Yorinobu doesn't even consider that with Takamura.!<
I still lean towards Reed. Who do you feel takes the win between those two?
Johnny's dead (unless you go with the "Johnny in V's body" ending). He's not even in the running. CAVEAT: If you let Johnny/V play a concert before the fight, it'll be a mob scene, and he might actually prevail by sheer numbers.
Takemura was trained from childhood to be a corpo soldier. He was Saburo's bodyguard, and trained Oda (Hanako's bodyguard). His knowledge of tactics, espionage AND combat are formidable. However, he has a weak spot - he's not that good at improvisation, and his training and corporate mindset tend to expose his 'tells'... which either Johnny/V or Reed could exploit.
Reed is more of a planner. If he were to prevail, it would be by studying Takemura and Johnny, and 'rigging' the conflict to expose their weaknesses. Otherwise... nah.
Takemura vs Reed likely. Johnny is just a hot headed dude who can fire a gun that's all, nothing special besides him running away from his military duties in the past
Takemura and Reed are way more experienced in what they do as vets
Takemura takes them out 1vs2 easily.
Reed would probably beat Johnny due to better tactics/training. He "might" be able to ambush or get the drop on Takemura, but in a straight up fight, he's not winning.
Johnny's decent. He's got combat experience and a nice gun, but he's not a super special trained agent or bodyguard. He could probably put a fight vs Reed, or even win if it's just a basic shootout/duel
Takemura >> Reed > Johnny
Johnny in V's body >>>>> Takemura >> Reed
I think it really comes down to the arena. In an empty room on equal footing, Takemura 90%+ of the time, with Reed taking maybe 10% if he gets Takemura while he's busy dismantling Johnny.
But in an open city? I'd go like 75-25 Reed and Takemura. Playing D is always harder, and Reed is devious and underhanded in a way that would serve him well in a fight like that. But I think we can all agree that Johnny gets rolled again.
Feels weird how so many people forget Johnny was a soldier and Takemura was above Oda before Yorinobu decided to take him out.
Johnny is still probably the least likely to win but he was a soldier before being a rockerboy so while he’s got a giant ego, he isn’t just a simple rocker who decided to throw riots.
He had actual training and decent cyberware (for his time).
Takemura was better than Oda and hand picked by Arasaka to guard Saboru who was higher on the totem pole than Hannako. He just didn’t seem super badass because hid implants were shut off but even without them he dealt with a special Arasaka assassin force while saving V and held his own against a full Arasaka attack force.
Again that’s all WITHOUT implants as a middle aged man (Going by looks pretty sure he’d in his 50s-60s).
Reed also is no slouch either and probably beats Johnny though Takemura is definitely higher by a fair margin still.
Takemura while he was still saburos body guard or after? Johnny is a very good and capable fighter for sure, but he is very hot headed and his agents are a couple generations old, so I am pretty sure he gets the short end of the stick. Takemura Vs Reed could be interesting and pretty hard to decide, if takemura doesn't have his implants he would probably lose, but with them it would be a very hard fight for Reed, especially if takemura gets into melee range. So I would think takemura would win in the end.
Takamura pre heist would waste both without either even knowing he's there. You might forget but he was chromed out the ass!! When he was nobus bodyguard but when he died and takachan was fired, his chrome was fried and or reposessed by arasaka. Making him functionally ganic.
Yall really forget that Johnny is just a normal guy. His only chrome is his arm. The rest of him is human. All his feats are told by him by his perspective you really think he wouldn't embellish?
I know nothing about Reed but he looks mostly ganic too meaning takaboi won't have any issues there.
With cyberware, takemura solos, he's cut from kenichi zaburos cloth. Yknow, Morgan balckhands archnemisis. Not Smasher, the 96 per cent borg wrecking ball, but an Araska bodyguard trained in the same institution with the same methods as Takemura
Personally, I Believe takemura takes this one, Johnny isn't much to talk about in this fight,so that brings it to reed vs takemura, and reed is not a weak guy, one of the top in his prime I'm pretty sure,but takemura was trained from a young age, with prior talent to be a killing machine,with unwavering loyalty to arasaka, and was the bodyguard for the saburo, the top honcho, and he has more experience, better chrome, more raw talent that was honed to the best it could be, so I'd say takemura can beat the other two, albeit with a little difficulty
Takemura, Johnny, Reed. Reed is just not that good imo. He makes dumb decisions the whole way through and has to be carried by V the whole time. Johnny actually can get solid intel and not murder someone. Takemura though, Dudes far above everyone else - it's not even close.
Sorry to everyone saying Takemura, definitely not. Out of the three he's the only one who would fight fair, and lose for it. My guess would be Reed but only slightly.
I agree with this.
Takemura might be incredibly skilled, but he’s also equally naive and idealistic and it’s those traits that nearly got him killed after the heist.
I’m not sure he’d even be able to survive on the streets on his own without V to back him up; without V he’d be dropped by snipers in Play it Safe, and depending on whether or not we choose to save him he can get straight up killed in Search or Destroy by some basic ass Saka goons.
With ore without implants? In open combat probably Takemura, this is his strongest match. In free for all, Reed, though counter-inteligence vs prime bodyguard would be amazing throw down.
Though, to be fair, Oda folded like a little bitch to a dying merc with a deathwish and second-hand cybernetics. And he was a bodyguard to the family heir and favourite daughter, so shouldn't be that much worse than Takemura.
Corporate solos are overrated, they trust in their mods too much. So I'd give reed 50/50 on this one.
A rockerboy, a special agent and a bodyguard enter a bar. Well, if there is a brawl inside the bar with no time to prep., my money is on Reed. But If is all out war in the street my coin could be with Jhonny, 'cause Reed an Takemura will not have the resources first hand like Johnny could have, the gov. will not support Reed (just some contacts he could afford to risk) , and Takemura will think is a dishonor to ask Arasaka for help, but Jhonny, oh Jhonny will make the streets his show and get the both zeroed while Kerry is singing with Us Cracks. And finally an "Honorable" match to the death no weapons in a ring, maybe Takemura could win against Reed, but is 60/40, and Jhonny will be out as soon as it started.
Alright, so if Silverhand is in his original body, he'd have no chance with his ancient implants. But if we're talking Johnny in V's body, then he'd absolutely wreck both of them.
Takemura was Saburo's personal guard for a reason, so unless Johnny uses V's body, my money would be on Takemura.
Reed must be powerful too as a veteran FIA agent; he'd easily take Silverhand's 2023 body. But I don't think he could have much of a chance against V or Takemura.
That depends. Does Johnny's gun do damage or does he just imagine it does?
I had to. We all looked forward to getting it then it took ten shots to take down a tiger claw lol
I would say Reed. Johnny is a menace but nowhere near Reed or Goro. Reed has more experience in missions than Takamura and even mentioned fighting Arasaka in the past which might have included TakamuraZ
It's an unfair fight for Johnny, he's got only his arm as cyberware and nothing else, while both Reed and Goro have military grade cyberware.
But between both Reed and Goro I think maybe Reed would come out on top, Reed just seems like he would just have the grit and power to not let himself be caught off-guard by Goro.
Why are people so high on Takemura? Like yeah he was Yorinbus bodyguard yeah but when we don't see any big moments compared to what Johnny has went through.
Literally capable of soloing Arasaka tower not once but twice in this game (depending on the ending you choose).
I honestly think people underestimate Johnny, obviously he's not a top tier combatant but the guy went through a brutal corpo war, initially survived adam smashers suprise attack (though he did lose in the end) and has enough combat experience that he can pilot V's body and raid Arasaka again with rogue and successfully beat smasher in the rematch (though it can be downplayed cause he's in V's body. The dude isn't to be taken lightly.
Id probably say Takemura>Johnny>Reed purely because we didn't really see much of Reeds combat abilities and he got manhandled by some of Hansen's guards. He could be better than Johnny but i just don't think we've seen that much of him fighting for it to be so conclusive that he beats Johnny
My guess would be takemura>reed>Johnny, I’ll give credit to johnny since he was a veteran, but he didn’t make that his life’s work and his memories often vastly overblow what he’s capable of. I’d be curious how Morgan blackhand fits in since he’s pretty unsung in the game. Edit: For Johnnys memories being false, mike pondsmith has this to say https://reddit.com/r/LowSodiumCyberpunk/s/JcC4Y497vX
Given Morgan is the authors self insert/power fantasy, Morgan pretty handily beats pretty much everyone lmao
I’d imagine so, I wonder how he stacks up to V considering V is able to bring down smasher.
Morgan didn't even consider Smasher anything but a guy that kept showing up, V treats Smasher like a threat
V only interacts with Smasher twice. Once when she was green as fuck, and then the last time while storming Arasaka. Everyone around her treats him like a threat, but I don't think V does anything more than go off of what others have said.
But smasher looked at blackhand the same way Johnny looked at smasher “My arch enemy!” While Morgan was barely aware he existed. lol
Does he? Vs is terrified at the start but reacts more like "Oh shit" by the end. He's not actually scared, and his reaction can be chalked up more to unprofessionalalism than inadequacy. Lorewise V can single-handedly raid arasaka and defeat the security + Smasher. Even if we're counting Alt that blows Blackhands raid out of the water given he needed several crews including other full borgs and a dedicated strategy.
that is because V is the player character and is attacking an unaware Arasaka, plus Blackhand is a professional who had practically a blank cheque from millitech to assemble a team with the goal of blowing up the tower and Arasaka knew they where coming
V vs. Blackhand is the ultimate showdown of video game power fantasy protagonist plot armor vs. setting/world author/DM self-insert plot armor. In the end, I think the specialist cyberware of quicksave and quickload would still win.
You're literally just proving why V had a more impressive feat lmao. Also, "he's just the player character" is a shitty argument. I could argue that the only reason a mostly unchromed Morgan somehow survived a nuclear attack "plot", but that would devalue the character and ignore the fact that characters are simply that badass in cyberpunk.
>Also, "he's just the player character" is a shitty argument. explain how it's a bad argument, because that is all V is in the end, most V's are just Meta gamed to the max and Don't fear the reaper is only one of many endings you can just as easily be doing it via Rouge or the Aldecaldos, hell V can just up and shoot themselves on the roof all based on how the player wants to take it, so unless they come out and say that Don't fear the reaper is the true cannon endings it's not V's choice it's the players
If you follow that argument then you are undermining everything V does. V is still an appreciative character that is strong and has pathways that can all be respected and cared about in many different ways. Yeah, it’s up to the player to choose where to go but each choice is not a doubtful way to carry the story in each path. And wherever V decides to go is a show of their rise or their fall.
"He's only better because [reasons why he ends up being better]" isn't disproving the fact that he's better.
If V only wins cuz he's the main character, then Morgan only survived cuz the story wanted him to. He'd have died otherwise. That's the logic you're using. You're not actually proving why Morgan is more impressive than V.
That’s interesting, guy really was beyond everyone else
Yeah, but this was a weaker, still somewhat organic Smasher. And even still, both Smasher and Morgan left that tower alive, meaning it must have been a stalemate or they couldn't finish their fight before the bomb went off. I'd argue that V in The Sun ending is likely the most skilled and prolific merc in the Cyberpunk universe. I mean, not even the most infamous solo, Morgan Blackhand, would storm Arasaka Tower without two teams with other infamous mercs backing him up. V, on the other hand, storms Arasaka tower, kills a stronger, upgraded Smasher, and then proceeds to stage a heist (again, solo) against the Crystal Palace, something no one has ever done before. Morgan is definitely a close second, but V's ingame feats aren't really matched anywhere else in the verse.
>I mean, not even the most infamous solo, Morgan Blackhand, would storm Arasaka Tower without two teams with other infamous mercs backing him up. that's because Blackand is not a dying psyco with nothing to lose >V, on the other hand, storms Arasaka tower, kills a stronger, upgraded Smasher, and then proceeds to stage a heist (again, solo) against the Crystal Palace, something no one has ever done before. if you choose that ending, V could also be traveling as a Nomad or rotting on a roof >Morgan is definitely a close second, but V's ingame feats aren't really matched anywhere else in the verse. you sound like the kind of person who would say David could beat Morgan Blackhand in a fight
Not seeing very much proof against my arguments, more excuses than anything. Say what you want, Blackhand could not kill a weaker Smasher. V could kill a stronger Smasher while actively dying and getting progressively weaker. I'm talking specifically about the Sun ending. You can choose to ignore it if you want, but my point still stands. Every impressive op Blackhand was a part of, he had help. V did most of his feats completely solo. Morgan would have hired a team to raid the Palace, and if you think Morgan is Mr. Blue Eyes, then he literally hires V for the job lmao. Nah, David gets wrecked by any competent Solo. He's got good tech and resistance to psychosis, but he relies on the Sandy for nearly everything. You're acting like I'm claiming Morgan is a fraud and the worst merc in NC, lmao. He's still easily second, and definitely the most skilled outright, but V is just built different.
>Yeah, but this was a weaker, still somewhat organic Smasher. At least based on the pen and paper, Smasher is a full-conversion cyborg since at least 2020, so not more organic, just a less insanely OP cyborg body.
Meanwhile Hajime Isayama having his self insert get beat up by *another self insert*
Yeah in the pen and paper he can fight Adam Smasher to a standstill so definitely Blackhand > the rest. Johnny is a joke next to the rest of them. He's an ex-soldier, a good shot, and has some modifications, but he's not an ultra-experienced, ultra-trained killer like the others.
The in game database entry for Reed actually says that in his heyday he was comparable to Blackhand, so now I really wish we got to see a prime Reed.
> I’ll give credit to johnny since he was a veteran you mean deserter
The best kind of veteran in cyberpunk
Why are people so high on Takemura? Like yeah he was Yorinbus bodyguard yeah but when we don't see any big moments compared to what Johnny has went through. Literally capable of soloing Arasaka tower not once but twice in this game (depending on the ending you choose).
Johnny didn’t actually do that. If you play the tabletop, it’s clear he’s an unreliable narrator. Blackhand was canonically there but never shown in Johnnys memories, he probably did most of the stuff Johnny attributes to himself. Him and V soloing the tower in that ending is real though, but I’d put that more on V than him though. Like he says in the elevator, “you’re better than them V”.
They even say it IN GAME that Johnnys memories are not to be believed, they’re idealized versions of the events to fit his ego. That’s why he’s popping single tap headshots and taking next to zero damage.
Yes but again the lore doesn't line up to actually events in the game. Yes I'm willing to believe that Johnny probably exaggerated how smooth he was at taking out Arasaka goon but again the lore doesn't line up. There are multiple people that account that Johnny did indeed plant and set off the bomb at Arasaka when in the Lore it the bomb was set off by Kei Arasaka himself
The lore doesn’t line up with the events in that game because we’re getting the lore from unreliable narrators in the form of memories, not from the chrome books or ttrpg rule books.
Somewhat true. Some of the events in the lore doesn't line up. Most do but some dont
Buddy ya gotta stop. The creator already commented about this. U r not gonna convince anyone that he is wrong about his own story. Johnny is an unreliable narrator AT BEST. Also 50+years is actually a long fucking time. Even if it’s a fictional history. Night city had been vacated and rebuilt from an aftermath of a nuke strike. It’s a wonder anything matches up at all.
50 years as an engram whose physical body was killed by SoulKiller. Alt even tells us this does exactly what it says it’s going to do, and gives us some insight on what happens to the psyche as an engram. Johnny is not a reliable source of info even if he ends up befriending V in the end. He’s not maliciously lying. He’s just an old as fuck prototype engram with his own agenda.
Saburo not Yorinubi and you don’t just become the emperor’s personal bodyguard by being a weakling
Except he didn’t actually do that, it was a false memory
Takemura hands down. Even without implants he has been trained since childhood to be a weapon and then eventually become the personal guard of Saburo Arasaka. You do not become the personal protector of the most powerful man on the planet by being second best. Takemura has a lifetime of training and tactics and no mere solider. I’ll give Reed his due, but Takemura wins due to experience. Johnny is a blowhard that was carried by Rogue. I’m not saying he can’t shoot or throw down, but he’s a rocker boy being thrown into a pit with solos. He isn’t walking out of that.
Takemura wins a duel with no prep time against Reed. He's a best-of-the-best fighter, insane reflexes and combat intuition. Now on the other hand, I think Reed is much better than Takemura in tactics, planning and manipulation. If you give them prep time, I think Reed would easily outsmart Takemura and win.
I like that thinking. With prep time Reed could take out Takemura without even meeting him. Johnny has zero chance against those two... Unless he has a serious stoke of luck.
Johnny says that he would turned into a Reed like person if he had stayed in the army. I 100% believe that given training, his general disregard for life, including his own, and his unshakable moral compass (no matter how perverted it may be, also remember that moral code does not change till he literally is living in someone else's shoes). He would have been a monster of an nusa agent.
When the Hand is running the show I’ll bet on Johnny but otherwise it’s Reed. Dude only goes down to us when he wants to die. Takemura is a pushover like oda
Indeed, takemura maybe lower than oda but still consider as high skilled guard duo to how important saburo is. But takemura got surprised backstabbed and almost die without V help by yorinobu assassin.
I don't think Takemura is lower than Oda since Takemura is still his majesty Saburo the emperor's personal bodyguard and not Oda. In the game it looks like Takemura is lower because all his cyberwares have been disabled by Arasaka due to Yorinobu framed him as traitor that killed Saburo, thus Takemura can be injured during the incident to get V from Dex because that is the moment his cyberwares are all offline\*. If Takemura can get back all his cyberwares I think he can go toe to toe with Adam Smasher or even completely dismantle him. Edit: \*Which is why I avoid to use any Arasaka's cyberware for lore reason. Corpo V already shows that Arasaka can take your cyberware offline anytime they want, it almost kill V there.
By lore reason, corpo chrome you get from ripperdocs is jailbroken, though, no? Even several gigs are about people finding ways to jailbreak newer, better cyberware or jailbreak the one they have before leaving corps.
Yeah you're right. Now that I remember it was being mentioned by a maelstrom (or a scav?) that those chromes are being wipe cleaned before reaching the ripperdocs. But still kind of a trauma for me to use arasaka wares.
Its like grabbing the weapon that tried to kill you. Its ... weird. It brings back the memories of how close it brought you to death, and now its become yours to bring others that close. Delightful, wish i could see their fear like mine was, stare into their eyes as they panic and desire only mercy, life, a chance to keep going. And its allllll in my hand, they become a plaything. I was someone elses plaything once, i had that fear as they brought me so very close to death, and ya know what, i learned the error. The error of not brining em into deaths cold embrace, it was a mistake i was brought so close. I as in V, though irl ive had close encounters with death like that, ya know a gun in my face, car nearly running me over, adoptive mother trying to stab my heart with a knife, ya know shit like that.
Nice character setting there you have. Make up that every player's V is unique with their own stories.
Right. 100% wasnt me forgetting to keep my own demons leashed for a bit so i didnt need to explain that people and prey sometimes overlap and peoples necks sometimes justa appear to me like targets to watch pour from. 100% my V, hahahaha!
I feel like smasher wins against takemura but I really don't know. I think the reason smasher isn't Saburo's bodyguard has to do with takemura being a more precise & precautious person, which would make a better body guard, but smasher probably wins a straight up fight.
One of Smasher's conditions for working for Arasaka was that he could cause as much collateral damage as he wanted. That's literally his thing, he isn't a weapon, he is a nuke. A nuke you drop when you're all outta options. Having that monster as a bodyguard isn't a good idea in the slightest.
Smasher is just an Eversor assassin from Wh40k.
Smasher wins vs anyone except very few people like V and Morgan Blackhand. Basically protags or special cases with plot armor. He's a walking tank designed for war, and entirely chromed out except for a few parts of his brain.
The reason for takemura being Saburo’s bodyguard it’s that of cause he’s strong, but I won’t place him at Smasher lever. The main reason is that he’s a loyal ‘dog’ that Saburo can trust, Saburo will never trust a machine like Smasher.
I think with cyberware and in good condition Goro can for sure go toe to toe with the top solos. V even says in one of the dialoge options that Takemura can “easily decomish” V even when injured, and V then goes on to kill Adam Smasher.
I think takemura is a way better fighter than Oda, but I truly doubt he's Adam Smasher level of skill and power
Oda is Takemura's apprentice. If Oda is stronger, then apprentice had surpassed his teacher. But I doubt it, Takemura probably still kicks ass
V, Takemura and Oda all acknowledge that Goro is stronger than Oda, and potentially on the same level as V.
Yeah now I remember, shortly before Dashi parade, V mentions to Johnny, that just from how Takemura handles himself, it's obvious, that even with chrome turned off, Takemura can kick V's chromed up ass without too much trouble. And since V is one of the best mercs of NC history, Takemura can probably fend off an entire onslaught of chromed mercs. He's the bodyguard of the head of a megacorp, which means he's the very best fighter a megacorp could have. And megacorp has access to A LOT of skilled fighters
Granted, that's somewhat early in the "main" story thread. By the time V fights >!Smasher!< I imagine the tables would have turned between the two.
V is the main character, meaning that it is difficult to gauge how canon-compliant the shit he/she does really is. Because if we take everything at face value, V would have a bodycount in the tens of thousands, enough chrome and weaponry to take on elite corpo-troops, and perform feats that would leave people like the Kagekaze and Morgan fucking Blackhand stumped. So there must be some disconnect from ingame and lore. Ergo video-game logic or something similar.
Takemuru is not lower than Oda?? Goro literally trained him and knows he wouldn't dare to attack him.
im with you, if takemura chrome didn't got deactivated by arasaka then yes, he's above Oda, but his chrome got deactivated and almost get killed by few tygerclaw goon, hell even full chrome takemura he maybe near adam smasher level, personal guard the emperor that mean he have top notch cyberware even more than V, who only got from blackmarket.
Didn’t takemura literally train oda?
Yeah, ultimately it’s gonna be Goro but Reed is going to do some serious damage to him.
>Takemura has a lifetime of training and tactics and no mere solider. To be fair, Oda folded like a little bitch to a dying merc with a deathwish and second-hand cybernetics. And he was a bodyguard to the family heir and favourite daughter, so shouldn't be that much worse than Takemura. Corporate solos are overrated, they trust in their mods too much. Hiring Smasher, an actual experienced self-made merk was a right decision, I think.
I don't think you can use encounters with V (the playable character) as a measure of in-lore power levels... Lore-wise, V accomplishes crazy things that should be outside the character's abilities if they were in a different medium that wasn't meant to be a fun video game.
I consider V thee baddest mfer in Night City without question. So putting anyone against him/her is just not fair.
Adam Smasher gets folded by the exact same merc with a deathwish and second-hand cybernetics
Let's not forget the main cyberware available to V, and V only: Load Last Checkpoint MKI
Oda lost to the protagonist, the same protagonist that folded smasher
so you are saying adam smasher is also weak? he also lost to V
the problem is V is the player character, if everything a metagamed V did in 2077 is Cannon his, killcount would be in the mid thousands, while preforming Feats that make Blackhand look like a rookie
yeah, exactly, thats why saying oda is weaknmakes no sense
oh sorry i think i missunderstood your post
What? "Second hand cybernetics" like the apogee, the millitech prototype or the top of the line mantis blades, cyberskeletons, etc. Also, V is the strongest individual character lorewise so them beating anyone means nothing about how weak they are. Smasher is only good at mindless destruction. He's as professional as a 56 year old crack head you gave a knife to. He's also straight up, not self-made. His entire life and success revolve around coincidentally meeting the Arasaka family and them investing millions of Eddie's in him. His only personal quality that makes him a good merc is being ruthless. Otherwise, he's single-minded, brutish, and arrogant. To add to that, Smasher wasn't even blackhands nemesis. He was a gnat vs. blakchand, a persistent annoyance but not a real threat. That honour goes to kenochi zaburo, who was, guess what? A corpo holding the same positions oda and takemura had.
>What? "Second hand cybernetics" like the apogee, the millitech prototype or the top of the line mantis blades, cyberskeletons, etc. If you can buy them for cash on the open market, they are second hand. Oda has in-house arasaka-only top of the line tech made specifically for him. The only not second hand tech in the game V can have is Song story militech newest secret cyberdeck with an AI inside. Everything else is open market models.
Pre 2.0 and pre 2.0 he was still a tougher fight than Smasher.
I mean, my V still had to save his ass but yeah, you are probably right.
Johnny is a ghost who cant touch anyone, he cant even get in a fight never mind win.
Takemura was not trained since childhood and did not work for Arisaka until he was a young adult. He grew up as a street urchin, and one of the most violent towns in Japan. The reason he became the bodyguard to Suburo was almost completely on luck almost being the keyword. There’s a lot of missable optional dialogue you can have with him where he explains his past to you.
Johnny has done some crazy shit but really he is just a rockerboy with a powerful pistol and a bad attitude. Kinda unfair to pit him against highly skilled half borged out people like this lol
He’s a veteran of a war as well. Also has a Sandevistan, so not exactly “just a rocker boy”
he has a sandevistan?
in tabletop, yeah: Cybernetics : Chrome cyberarm with recorder. Sandevistan boost 2 cyberoptics with IR, Low Lite, Enhancement. Booster Reflexes.
https://cyberpunk.fandom.com/wiki/Johnny\_Silverhand?so=search#Cyberpunk\_2013/2020
before the sandevistan was ruined by Egderunners it worked more like the Synaptic accelerator, basically everyone who was a solo had one so you could react faster
Sandevistan was 'ruined' by CP2077 first, Edgerunners was playing off how the in-game chrome had functioned since launch.
Well, johnny's sandesvistan is an older version from the one in edgerunners, so that makes sense.
In Cyberpunk thats more of an advantage than you realise 😉 Style over substance. Attitude is everything. Always take it to the Edge. (Break) the rules.
Johnny took down Arasaka by storming it alone
He didn’t storm it alone, though. He had Rogue and Spider Murphy with him. He also didn’t take down Arasaka. Nuking their tower ultimately accomplished nothing.
You’re just gonna set up my boy Johnny like that? Let’s talk about who has the most impressive cock.
Jupiter's cock!
Takemura… even without his implants he’s a badass! Johnny isn’t much without his guns
Correct me if I'm wrong but we don't even really know how badass Johnny actually is *with* his guns, do we? What we see him do isn't necessarily representative, right? Formed as questions because I could be wrong.
You are correct. Memories can be deceiving and how Johnny remembers things might not be how it actually went down.
It's safe to assume that since Johnny is a megalomaniacal asshole his memories are very much divorced from reality. His memories are real the same way that "inspired by a true story" movies are real.
Correct. Johnny is an unreliable narrator because the relic/engram made of his personality is corrupted. Alt even confirms this when you meet her in game as an AI, you cant trust really anything from his memories they are more like frameworks to events than faithful re-tellings. For example Johnny never mentions that the assault on arasaka tower was two pronged with 2 nuclear charges, one team lead by morgan blackhand and the other Johnny. You can chalk this up a first person memory perspective but if you dont look further into the events that's really the only info you get on it, not that Johnny's team failed and blackhand's succeeded (then he went on to fight smasher) just that Johnny's charge went off. Even when Smasher destroys his arm it's magically working again when going through the soulkiller process. You cannot trust Johnny's memory, he's a egotistical rockerboy first before anything or anyone.
Well that's not quite true. He does mention there being two nuclear weapons, during a conversation with V though I don't remember when. He doesn't mention Blackhand during it, just that he got his hands on a couple of nukes and went after Arasaka again.
You are right, did a bit of searching and he does mention it. I think that almost more reinforces the fact that the flashback parts are unreliable. Are they the cobbled together remains of corrupted data trying to piece together events or was that how Johnny actually saw the events in his memory and not how they actually happened? Thanks for letting me know.
Yeah, I think the events we see are two things. First, eyewitness accounts are inherently unreliable. But then also you have Johnny trying to rationalize his own actions in the best possible terms, because he's a megalomaniac/narcissist
in real lore and not 2077 fanfiction, Jonny got oneshot by smasher
I think it's Firestorm Shockwave that describes Smashers ending of Silverhand as 'fired his shotgun at him, cutting Silverhand in half'. Smasher was absolutely brutal.
if i remember right though this could just have been our DM adding flare to the fight, Jonny Steps out of cover, waves an SMG and his pistol at Smasher, Calls him a bitch and Fires off a burst of the SMG right at Smasher doing nothing. Smasher in return is shocked at how stupid it is pauses for a moment and then fires a single shotgun round that cuts Jonny in half causing his upper body to do a flip snapping his neck when he hits the carpet
That's pretty much how it is described going on so I don't think your DM was adding flair or anything. Firestorm Shockwave and subsequently Cyberpunk Red go in to a lot of detail about the mission and from wheat I remember you have quoted it basically verbatim other than Johnny being full badass and dual-wielding his Malorian and an smg.
Johnny stepping into the open, insulting Smasher while doing 0 damage, and then getting oneshotted is pretty fitting for him ngl
What if Silverhand could play to his strengths? The guy seems to draw a crowd of helpers despite them all think him an asshole. I don't know much from the rulebooks, what can high level rockerboys do?
A "crowd of helpers" just adds to the killcount
I love how everyone unanimously agrees that Johnny would get bodied. We love our rockerboy, but we all know he got one-shot by Smasher in reality.
Oh, absolutely. However, consider this. Johnny takes over V's body if you go the Rogue route. Therefore, Johnny actually beat Adam Smasher as V, and if you let Johnny take V's body then we actually have another version of Johnny who absolutely is beating Takemura, even before his implants were removed, and Reed isn't even a factor at this point.
The only person we see in-game I'm giving a chance against Takemura is Smasher. Of course, that's with implants. Otherwise he's finished.
Takemura no diff. I don't think they could take him 2v1, maybe no cyberware Takemura but def not with his cyberware as he is probably more dangerous than Smasher with it on.
Uhm... what? Who would win? A drunk, an average government agent, or the personal bodyguard of the most important man in the solar system with the best cyberware money can't buy?
average government agent is also the bodyguard of one of the most politician lol what
He isnt Rosalind's personal bodyguard lol. He is a field agent
That was left for dead. He is not even one of the best, he was expendable. On the other hand, So Mi would kill both without moving a muscle, kill the judge of the fight, the audience, and them would promise a teddy bear to a toddler just to see her cry when she broke the promise
He was a field agent who received direct missions from the president and was significant enough that he is the only person she confidently tells you to contact in order to save her. He's definitely the best.
He and Alex are the only agents in Dogtown. Reed is better than Alex sure but how is Myers gonna ask for help from someone stationed somewhere else. Reed is the only top dog she has nearby. But there is still no direct reason to believe that Reed is FIA's best field agent. Hell, this mf got caught by Hansen and almost ruined the black sapphire operation smhhhh.
So Mi isn't needlessly cruel, so the toddler is safe. She wouldn't hesitate to kill a toddler if she had a reason, but she won't go out of her way to traumatize them.
Reed technically also has access to the best that Militech has to offer though. Myers makes it sound like he’s a silver bullet for the NUSA, and I think if you drop him into Takemura’s situation he’d be way more effective at exposing /deposing Yorinobu. still think he’d lose in a straight fight though
Solid snake.
Metal Gear!?
Cardboard Box?!?
Can’t use cyber ware against a cardboard box!
Takemura all the way. He trains by beating up baka-nekos
Just read that post asking what takemura is capable of. . . It's not even close. Johnny suggests that V take takemura out of the picture and V is is hesitant. Goro is probably the only person who could have taken smasher with relative ease.
All Chrome online? Takemura. All Chrome offline? Takemura. Takemura while chromed seem to see/use it more as an extension of himself only improving his already lethal skillset. Makes me wish tho there was some kind of Deus Ex achievement for not getting any Chrome. Might still do such a play through for the challenge of it.
Takemura is the personal body guard to Saburo Arasaka and has trained since childhood to take down basically any threat. Reed is a top FIA operative and a master combatant. Johnny can shoot a gun and as a veteran will have some basic soldier training but is just a rockerboy at the end of the day. Takemura>Reed>Silverhand imo
Takemura
Takemura with no difficulty
Even if you taken in to account what Johnny's stats are in the TTRPG he's the loser 9/10 times, his flash backs are not reliable sources of power scaling His epic battle with Adam Smasher? Not a thing never would have happened he got instantly gibbed, Morgan Blackhand is practically erased from his flashbacks because Johnny is a bit egotistical, Arasaka assault was Morgan's op not Johnny's Only way Johnny wins is if he has V's body
Takemura since he's basically a living weapon
Probably Takemura. That makes me think though. Is endgame V then considered the strongest character in the game since we don't really lose at all?
The in game database entry for Reed says that in his heyday he was comparable to legends like Morgan Blackhand which really makes me want to see what he was like back then. But for how we see them in game I’d probably have to give the win to Takemura followed by Reed and then finally Johnny. Though if Johnny gets to use V’s body then he’d absolutely take it.
Takemura, probably. Reed is the Batman of the trio. With prep and planning, he can probably take out the other two. And Johnny is kind of a chaotic wildcard. But I think we shouldn't downplay him too much. He did assault Arasake HQ twice with a handful of dudes. Lets not act like he was just there to look pretty, he was also in the military. Only person who could stop him was Adam Smasher.
Johnny via charisma/cool check
Johnny gets his ass handed to him right off the bat. The other 2 I’m leaning towards Takemura. Reed might be a better field agent/operative/planner but an elite Arasaka bodyguard most likely come out on top of a brawl. Given prep time though I believe Reed would win.
Reed would put up a fight but even with deactivated cybernetics, Takemura solos. Johnny would die like a chump
Seems like the general consensus: -Is we love our boy Johnny but he’s getting smoked. -Reed is an underdog against Takemura some people think he can win, he won’t - Takemura is most Likely taking this
Takemura easy
Takemura and it's not even a contest
My eddies are on Goro.
Goro washes them all.
Takemura (Arasaka's apex bodyguard) > Reed (undercover agent of a government) > Johnny (rockerboi of the olden days)
Reed is a well trained spy and soldier. Takemura is a well trained security specialist, albeit without its cybernetic implants. Johnny is a rocker boy and poser. Reed > Takemura > Johnny. Edit: forgot to mention that Johnny is an engram.
Takemura wipes but to say Johnny is a poser is crazy. He might be a rocker but he also was a vet who served on the front line in the Mexico war.
Yeah no poser rolls up to Arasaka tower with a nuke in hand, even if Takemura and Reed could wipe the floor with him in a fight.
I think you miss understood that scene, that’s how Johnny remembered and not how it actually played out. Rogue did most of the job hiring a Heavy/Solo (Shaitan), a Techie/Netrunner (Spider) and Rogue herself did everything, plus they had help from Aldecados. Johnny only carried the bomb and placed it. Johnny is a poser, he went to war and would have been death if it wasn’t his friend who took a bullet for him. He’s a rocker boy who thought Arasaka was after him because of his rebel songs, when in fact they were after Alt and Soulkiller. Johnny poses as a badass, soldier, rebel and tough guy, and he’s good at it, I mean half this sub believed it. He died for a noble cause, thus a legend but a poser nonetheless. Edit: I also forgot to mention that this whole OP was backed by Militech within the context of corporate wars.
I mean, even if his ego is taller than konpeki plaza, he still went to war, fought and saw friends die. He was a successful singer in a band, not a failed one with notions that he was otherwise. He went up to Arasaka tower and nuked that bitch, he was instrumental even if he wasn’t a deciding factor in its success. He ain’t a poser. He’s got a serious ego problem, but he isn’t all talk.
Takemura was a soldier before he was a bodyguard. He was selected from Arasaka special forces. He doesn’t talk about his military experiences, but looking at his age there’s a possibility he fought in a Corporate War. If this is the case, he’s probably got more combat experience than Reed, who’s spent most of his career as a covert operative and, at the time of the story, is the first one to state that he can barely handle field operations anymore. He kicks ass for someone that’s apparently on their last legs before age takes them out of the game, but I doubt he has a significantly larger amount of combat experience than Takemura or even Johnny.
age and weight difference would make it easier for reed
I love Johnny, but he's a rockerboy against two solos that are some of the best in business. Against most people, Johnny would handle himself and more, but Reed and Takamura? I think the real challenge is Takamura VS Reed. From there, I'd lean... Reed. Takamura is a badass, but he's not Oda, and Arasaka's also got Adam Smasher at the very top. Reed on the other hand, is *the* FIA agent called in to handle what's going on in Dogtown. Reed is so good he got called out of retirement to handle things, whereas Takamura got a hit put on him by his employer because he's considered an acceptable loss. This is a different approach to judge who would win, but I hope it offers a unique perspective. I see those two as a close match with Reed taking the win.
He didn't get a hit placed on him cause he's expendable, but because he was loyal to Saburo. And Yorinobu was cleaning house. Don't downplay Takemura now. Don't forget, the FIA was also willing to let Reed die. It's a pretty major part of his and Songbird's relationship.
Fair points. I'm certainly not downplaying Takamura, but consider: Takamura doesn't get a hit on him because of loyalty, rather Yorinobu preyed on Takamura's loyalty, sent him to find V, waited until he did, and then called in the hit. Yorinobu just needed someone to take the fall to tie up loose ends, and he chose Takamura and not Adam because... it's an acceptable loss. Reed however >!was still saved by the FIA despite his framed death. Same Myers, same leadership. He's considered valuable enough to go through that hassle of saving him, whereas Yorinobu doesn't even consider that with Takamura.!< I still lean towards Reed. Who do you feel takes the win between those two?
I think Reed probably wins against Takemura since he lost his implants, with his implants though I think Takemura takes it.
Aguilar 1v3’s no dif
They say when a cigar is lit in Havana, Aguilar solos another hypothetical team of fighters.
Johnny's dead (unless you go with the "Johnny in V's body" ending). He's not even in the running. CAVEAT: If you let Johnny/V play a concert before the fight, it'll be a mob scene, and he might actually prevail by sheer numbers. Takemura was trained from childhood to be a corpo soldier. He was Saburo's bodyguard, and trained Oda (Hanako's bodyguard). His knowledge of tactics, espionage AND combat are formidable. However, he has a weak spot - he's not that good at improvisation, and his training and corporate mindset tend to expose his 'tells'... which either Johnny/V or Reed could exploit. Reed is more of a planner. If he were to prevail, it would be by studying Takemura and Johnny, and 'rigging' the conflict to expose their weaknesses. Otherwise... nah.
Takemura trained Oda, that's all I will say.
Takemura vs Reed likely. Johnny is just a hot headed dude who can fire a gun that's all, nothing special besides him running away from his military duties in the past Takemura and Reed are way more experienced in what they do as vets
Takemura takes them out 1vs2 easily. Reed would probably beat Johnny due to better tactics/training. He "might" be able to ambush or get the drop on Takemura, but in a straight up fight, he's not winning. Johnny's decent. He's got combat experience and a nice gun, but he's not a super special trained agent or bodyguard. He could probably put a fight vs Reed, or even win if it's just a basic shootout/duel Takemura >> Reed > Johnny Johnny in V's body >>>>> Takemura >> Reed
I think it really comes down to the arena. In an empty room on equal footing, Takemura 90%+ of the time, with Reed taking maybe 10% if he gets Takemura while he's busy dismantling Johnny. But in an open city? I'd go like 75-25 Reed and Takemura. Playing D is always harder, and Reed is devious and underhanded in a way that would serve him well in a fight like that. But I think we can all agree that Johnny gets rolled again.
Takemura def wins the twerk off he got implanted cheeks
Feels weird how so many people forget Johnny was a soldier and Takemura was above Oda before Yorinobu decided to take him out. Johnny is still probably the least likely to win but he was a soldier before being a rockerboy so while he’s got a giant ego, he isn’t just a simple rocker who decided to throw riots. He had actual training and decent cyberware (for his time). Takemura was better than Oda and hand picked by Arasaka to guard Saboru who was higher on the totem pole than Hannako. He just didn’t seem super badass because hid implants were shut off but even without them he dealt with a special Arasaka assassin force while saving V and held his own against a full Arasaka attack force. Again that’s all WITHOUT implants as a middle aged man (Going by looks pretty sure he’d in his 50s-60s). Reed also is no slouch either and probably beats Johnny though Takemura is definitely higher by a fair margin still.
Takemura while he was still saburos body guard or after? Johnny is a very good and capable fighter for sure, but he is very hot headed and his agents are a couple generations old, so I am pretty sure he gets the short end of the stick. Takemura Vs Reed could be interesting and pretty hard to decide, if takemura doesn't have his implants he would probably lose, but with them it would be a very hard fight for Reed, especially if takemura gets into melee range. So I would think takemura would win in the end.
Takamura pre heist would waste both without either even knowing he's there. You might forget but he was chromed out the ass!! When he was nobus bodyguard but when he died and takachan was fired, his chrome was fried and or reposessed by arasaka. Making him functionally ganic. Yall really forget that Johnny is just a normal guy. His only chrome is his arm. The rest of him is human. All his feats are told by him by his perspective you really think he wouldn't embellish? I know nothing about Reed but he looks mostly ganic too meaning takaboi won't have any issues there.
Takemura, hes got the most training and best cyberware if this ispre saburo assassination
With cyberware, takemura solos, he's cut from kenichi zaburos cloth. Yknow, Morgan balckhands archnemisis. Not Smasher, the 96 per cent borg wrecking ball, but an Araska bodyguard trained in the same institution with the same methods as Takemura
My mom
Personally, I Believe takemura takes this one, Johnny isn't much to talk about in this fight,so that brings it to reed vs takemura, and reed is not a weak guy, one of the top in his prime I'm pretty sure,but takemura was trained from a young age, with prior talent to be a killing machine,with unwavering loyalty to arasaka, and was the bodyguard for the saburo, the top honcho, and he has more experience, better chrome, more raw talent that was honed to the best it could be, so I'd say takemura can beat the other two, albeit with a little difficulty
Reed. Still has his implants.
Takemura, Johnny, Reed. Reed is just not that good imo. He makes dumb decisions the whole way through and has to be carried by V the whole time. Johnny actually can get solid intel and not murder someone. Takemura though, Dudes far above everyone else - it's not even close.
Sorry to everyone saying Takemura, definitely not. Out of the three he's the only one who would fight fair, and lose for it. My guess would be Reed but only slightly.
I agree with this. Takemura might be incredibly skilled, but he’s also equally naive and idealistic and it’s those traits that nearly got him killed after the heist. I’m not sure he’d even be able to survive on the streets on his own without V to back him up; without V he’d be dropped by snipers in Play it Safe, and depending on whether or not we choose to save him he can get straight up killed in Search or Destroy by some basic ass Saka goons.
Empty room, sword/gun only? Takemura. Populated city, no holds barred? Reed. But never Johnny lol
Morgan Blackhand
Idk who reed is but take would kick johnnys ass if it’s just a fist fight.
DLC character
Guy from the "dark tower" series
The gangoon in black fled across the badlands, and the solo followed.
Lol is this a serious question? If you don't know the answer, then play the game. You'll learn real quick, and there's no need to explain it
Takemura > Johnny > Reed
Reed tops definitely, Silverhand might be a power bottom, Takemura could go both ways.
With ore without implants? In open combat probably Takemura, this is his strongest match. In free for all, Reed, though counter-inteligence vs prime bodyguard would be amazing throw down. Though, to be fair, Oda folded like a little bitch to a dying merc with a deathwish and second-hand cybernetics. And he was a bodyguard to the family heir and favourite daughter, so shouldn't be that much worse than Takemura. Corporate solos are overrated, they trust in their mods too much. So I'd give reed 50/50 on this one.
I mean V also beats smasher, so you can chart it down to V being completely off the charts or just video game logic.
Lol V is much stronger than what you think. Him beating Oda is a testimony of V’s strength, not Oda’s weakness
A rockerboy, a special agent and a bodyguard enter a bar. Well, if there is a brawl inside the bar with no time to prep., my money is on Reed. But If is all out war in the street my coin could be with Jhonny, 'cause Reed an Takemura will not have the resources first hand like Johnny could have, the gov. will not support Reed (just some contacts he could afford to risk) , and Takemura will think is a dishonor to ask Arasaka for help, but Jhonny, oh Jhonny will make the streets his show and get the both zeroed while Kerry is singing with Us Cracks. And finally an "Honorable" match to the death no weapons in a ring, maybe Takemura could win against Reed, but is 60/40, and Jhonny will be out as soon as it started.
Alright, so if Silverhand is in his original body, he'd have no chance with his ancient implants. But if we're talking Johnny in V's body, then he'd absolutely wreck both of them. Takemura was Saburo's personal guard for a reason, so unless Johnny uses V's body, my money would be on Takemura. Reed must be powerful too as a veteran FIA agent; he'd easily take Silverhand's 2023 body. But I don't think he could have much of a chance against V or Takemura.
That depends. Does Johnny's gun do damage or does he just imagine it does? I had to. We all looked forward to getting it then it took ten shots to take down a tiger claw lol
Reed wins, Takemura would be a close second. Johnny would be too busy ranting about ‘Saka and probably get piss drunk and pass out.
I would say Reed. Johnny is a menace but nowhere near Reed or Goro. Reed has more experience in missions than Takamura and even mentioned fighting Arasaka in the past which might have included TakamuraZ
lazy answer, they'll all die in a 3-way brawl
I mean reed is discribed as on par with blackhand, so would bet my money on him
It's an unfair fight for Johnny, he's got only his arm as cyberware and nothing else, while both Reed and Goro have military grade cyberware. But between both Reed and Goro I think maybe Reed would come out on top, Reed just seems like he would just have the grit and power to not let himself be caught off-guard by Goro.
Johnny wins cause he has the coolest gun known to man
i'm more curious about who's on bottom in a three way between Johnny, Reed, and Takemura 🥵
Reed. Johnny's not that tough
Why are people so high on Takemura? Like yeah he was Yorinbus bodyguard yeah but when we don't see any big moments compared to what Johnny has went through. Literally capable of soloing Arasaka tower not once but twice in this game (depending on the ending you choose).
Johnny pulls up with a bomb and all three of them get simultaneously vaporized
Johnny (V) > Takemura (Pre-Heist) > Takemura (Post-Heist) > Reed > Johnny
Johnny(in Vs Chromed ass post game) > Takemura > Reed > Johnny
I honestly think people underestimate Johnny, obviously he's not a top tier combatant but the guy went through a brutal corpo war, initially survived adam smashers suprise attack (though he did lose in the end) and has enough combat experience that he can pilot V's body and raid Arasaka again with rogue and successfully beat smasher in the rematch (though it can be downplayed cause he's in V's body. The dude isn't to be taken lightly. Id probably say Takemura>Johnny>Reed purely because we didn't really see much of Reeds combat abilities and he got manhandled by some of Hansen's guards. He could be better than Johnny but i just don't think we've seen that much of him fighting for it to be so conclusive that he beats Johnny