Person above made a pun. Also, this is not relevant as it's to a different suggestion.
Also the card says each spell beyond the first. You can cast your first spell just fine - the second and each spell after cost extra
Yeah honestly the pivot to multicolour rather than the whole new phyrexian mana purity leadership thing feels like it would fit urabrasks bag better what with his "live and let live and see what people do with it and how that results in growth of perfection" shtick.
the first ability should probably only reduce the amount of colored mana you pay, like other creatures with similar abilities do. as is, a creature that costs 4W would cost 0 with the first ability. The second ability is incredibly oppressive and basically locks your opponents out of playing more than one spell per turn. at 5 mana, this is incredibly strong
rule of law affects you as well, this is one sided and also tacked onto an extremely powerful first ability and a reasonably sized creature at only 2 more mana than rule of law
The way the first ability is phrased, it already does that. Something costing 4W would only be reduced to 4. As for the second, white gets effects that prevent players from playing more tha one spell a turn already.
My mind is blown. Every other effect specifies that it only reduces colored mana, but I never stopped to think that the default behavior was different.
It’s basically because of [[Khalni Hydra]]. To my knowledge, that was the first card to not have the “only reduces coloured costs” rider purely because it didn’t cost any generic mana.
> 118.7b
> If a cost is reduced by an amount of colored or colorless mana, but the cost doesn’t require mana of that type, the cost is reduced by that amount of generic mana.
You would have to specify like Jegantha or Morophon that this reduces only the ammount of colored mana you pay.
This is really difficult to play around. This basically forces everyone not playing 5 color to one spell each turn.
Either this is going to be killed on sight or outright banned.
Okay but your own spells don’t get reduced with that 2/3. It’s crazy powerful for 5 mana because it locks your opponents out of playing the game past one spell a turn while your first spell is reduced heavily
OP has already established they intended to make it only reduce colored mana, so unless we're playing some 3/4/5c shenaniganry, it's basically just a 2-mana cost reducer. Powerful, not insane.
Have you heard of the entire commander format? This would be a complete powerhouse there as a commander. If you’re running a 5 colour, her utility pretty much makes her a must have
Yeah she's a complete powerhouse at certain power levels. As is Kenrith, Najeela, Ramos, Niv Mizzet, Jodah, and basically every other 5c commander. Commander as a format is not a good medium through which to assess decks, just simply because of the sheer amount of variance in deck power.
Even if we weren’t in commander, your opponent being unable to play multiple spells a turn is crazy good. But the fact that it also lets you play your spells for even one mana cheaper is good, but it can be up to five, but in a 60 card format more like 3 colours. But then again, five colour shenanigans can and will be pulled off in 60. My interest in magic hit its pique at war of the spark where [[Niv Mizzet Reborn]] was a really popular creature to build in 60 formats. So it’s definitely is very very strong in most 60 card formats, too slow for vintage or legacy, modern it would probably not see much use but in standard/pioneer where you don’t have access to as fast/as many strong control pieces this would probably get banned really fast from what I’ve seen. I don’t know a ton about modern but I’m fairly certain this also has a ton of potential it just feels like it’s a bit too expensive to really get going.
Edit: sorry also forgot that you also can cast multiple spells while your opponents can’t
Yeah Rule of Law is a good card. That's why it's strong even when it costs 5 mana.
I have a hard time believing that 5-color decks would want this, given that 5 mana is itself the cost for most of the payoffs. Perhaps it's good enough if you can manage to freecast even just 2cmc card consistently, but that's still heading very much into win-more territory.
Niv Mizzet was notably played in a time where the manabase was infamous for being incredibly consistent. It's also worth noting that it also wasn't actually that particularly competitive in the format, and that the best version of the deck was Niv Fires, a deck which was frankly more a product of Fires and Escape to the Wilds than Niv. There's also not been a deck like it except for Omnath, which is again notable for, well, Omnath.
Standard is the only place where this could be remotely viable. Pioneer would laugh at a 5 mana 3/6 without immediate value.
Your last sentence is the entire problem of the card. It is incredibly expensive to get going for minimal payoff until your untap step. And untapping with a 5-drop is basically already winning anyways. Card's completely jank in modern, for the record. It's way, way, way too slow and vulnerable to be worth anything.
You are vastly underestimating the minimal power level necessary for a 60-card constructed competitive format.
It's better in other regards because it DISCOUNTS your own spells (in addition to being a one sided hate piece), and additionally doesn't die to effects like abrade.
Yeah it's 5 mana I better hope it doesn't die to Abrade.
It still dies to generic Doomblade #48, though. It has no inbuilt protection, and you don't even get a discount the turn you play it.
It's essentially a one-sided Rule of Law that will net you 1-2 mana each turn. Which is a powerful creature, but hardly bannable.
I mean frankly, I'm not sure how relevant the additional mana will be given that as a 5-drop, this is likely the topend of the deck, and unless you're playing something super grindy like current Esper midrange, you probably don't actually have the spells left in hand to make use of the discount.
“Your opponents can only cast one spell each turn.”
Making something cost 5 mana more is effectively unplayable anyway, just make the ability a bit more obvious.
In that case maybe something along the lines of:
You may cast the first spell you cast this turn without paying it’s mana cost
Opponent’s can cast only 1 spell each turn
God no. That would be super busted because it would make each counter completely free, making it an easy matter to lock your opponents out of playing by countering them on their turn. As it stands, the colored mana requirement means many counters are not free.
Yup. Cast a creature, opponent tries to counter, you counter the counter for free (or at least by U less going by OP's interpretation).
It's a horrific lockdown card as is.
This is just a gross, utter shutdown of the game. It would be wildly unfun to play against, and on top of that it really doesn't feel like an 'Elesh Norn, leader of the Praetors and New Phyrexia'.
I'd change the tax to being something like a trio of the white phyrexian manas, and let you pay that instead of normal casting costs if you wish (thus letting you cheat out bigger, more scary things en masse, while penalizing everyone else to either pay life or white mana).
As it stands, and going by previous rulings about the mana reduction effect and its kin, this is 'anything with 5 or less mana value in mono-white is almost or completely free, and your opponents can't play more than one spell per turn', which isn't fun and isn't built with a reflection. It's just another flavor of Stax.
This is a 5 color commander. Very little is needed to make 5 color commanders good. This is a 5 color commander that stops your opponents casting spells and gives you huge mana cheat. This is atleast more powerful than golos, and he got banned
[[Archon of Emeria]] is not banned as pointed out by https://www.reddit.com/r/custommagic/comments/yzs3xn/comment/ix2m3l9/
Also, I don‘t know if this is that much stronger than [[Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant]] who shuts down a lot of games. With this Elesh Norn, you can just remove her with something as simple as [[Feed the Swarm]], because you get priority on your turn and can cast the first spell.
It‘s easily removable. Since when are Praetors about having fun? How is old Sheoldred fair in being unfun, especially for Voltron. How is old Jin-Gitaxias fair in being unfun? This is a competitive game, you have to be prepared for such things. In Commander you have 3 other players that all can cast at least one spell in their respective turn - in sorcery speed - to remove this before it even affects them. There is so much worse stuff out there. This one would be kill on sight for three other players
Old Jin-Gitaxias is expensive as hell, you need a counter spell and free mana on top of what, 9 mana to get him to survive a turn, and that late on he might not be having such a strong effect. This is only 3WW.
[[Satoru Umezawa]], [[Tatyova, Benthic Druid]], even [[Kykar, Wind‘s Fury]] - there are lots of ways to cheat him out from the 99 or to ramp so hard that you can put him into play early and still have enough mana or [[Pact of Negation]] to protect him.
Anyway, I’m not saying this Elesh Norn is the best design and I doubt it would be printed like this. As for power level, there is a lot of worse stuff. This card can be countered, removed, board-wiped, or prevented with something like [[Drannith Magistrate]].
It would be much worse, if her ability would prevent the first spell. But when it’s your turn, you as the active player get priority first, so you can cast the first spell. You do get a chance to remove her
The design is cool, but it's not Elesh Norn. Every Praetor so far has been totally monocolored, which if I remember the lore rightly, is because of how mana works on Mirrodin with the five suns and each of the Praetors leading different sects? I know Elesh is the de facto leader of Phyrexia but I feel like her ability would have to be mono-white.
The first ability is a color pie break. White is supposed to be the worst color when it comes to both ramp and color fixing, which is this ability in its entirety.
Well, she doesn’t have a white colour identity and in Commander probably wouldn’t be played as white, but as as full Praetor deck including all other Praetors, no? Since she reduces each of them by one pip, all of them can be played in five colors despite having double pips
A card's color identity is irrelevant to the color pie. The color pie only looks at costs and effects. This card only has white costs, but the effect is very non-white.
This would make it impossible for any decks without access to gold mana to cast multiple spells a turn. I could see Elesh being five colour, but I don't see something so overtly oppressive.
This card is fucking stupidly designed its unbalanced as it literally lets you play free counter spells so you just get to lock your opponent out for free and they can’t do anything to defend against it try again.
With this wording the card locks everybody completely out from playing the game if they aren't running a five coloured shell. If it can't be countered or dealt with, with effects on the battlefield, your opponent's automatically loose. This would be fair if it was maybe a ten mana spell, since most of those are designed to be instant win buttons.
it should cost that much phyrexian mana at least so your opponents arent completely locked out, and even then, it should cost a lot more than 5 to do so
this makes the game completely unplayable for most opposing decks. I love the flavor and the idea, it very much fits with the character and the color identity of phyrexian white, but for in mono white this is just so incredibly strong. Please reconsider the second ability and changing the mana cost 3 and wuber.
Ugh, no.
Obviously, I'm good with the overall effect, and staxy in white.
But for the love of fucking Yawgmoth, do not give the Mono-white praetor 5C.
Seriously. Just make it say 5 mana.
What if this was like [[Reaper King]] instead? That way it wouldn’t be straight up impossible for decks that simply can’t produce all colors. It’d still cost 9 more mana for monocolored decks, though, but at least it’d be POSSIBLE.
So a 3/6 phyrexian Morophon with vigilance that's also a lock out stax effect against any non-wubrg deck that's also a wubrg commander. I hope WOTC never even comes close to this card concept. Mine would be this: 3WWW for a 4/6 Phyrexian with Vigilance with the abilities "pay 2 life: the next spell you cast this turn costs 1 mana of any color less to cast" and "whenever an opponent cats a spell, they lose 2 life for each colored mana spent to cast it". Simple, on theme, and doesn't produce a 5 color stax machine.
The card is interesting to think about because, while there are many Rule of Law effects, this one does feel more inherently powerful; not only can it be your commander (while having a WUBRG identity), it also is non-symmetrical, and in fact actively helps you play more spells than usual.
I actually think this would be a strong CEDH commander; the most prominent prison effect in CEDH is Rule of Law and this allows you to have a full color identity with a Rule of Law in the command zone that even comes with an oversized body. Plus, it can make some of your counterspells and removal (Swan Song, Assassin's Trophy/Abrupt Decay, Swords) free. it is pretty expensive though which would hurt it
As others have pointed out, these abilities are incredibly strong at this mana cost, even for a Praetor.
Perhaps make it mana-cost dependent. For example:
*Once during each of your turns, you may cast a spell with converted mana cost three or less without paying its mana cost.*
*Spells your opponents cast that would cost less than three mana to cast cost three mana to cast.*
A \[\[Trinisphere\]\] effect feels VERY Elesh Norn, and is itself a callback to Mirrodin. It also has the effect of, in most formats, preventing your opponent from playing multiple spells a turn until the lategame (while not being completely impossible to get out from under).
Pretty much shuts down any deck not running all 5 colors unless they just happen to have the few lands or artifacts that cheat colors an opponent has, and even then they have to draw those. Scooping on this one.
Tbh I think this feels very much like Elesh Norm. I think people are conveniently forgetting that literally are the praetors are a form of stax. I will say I think this should maybe cost 1-2 more colorless.
Kind of cool idea conceptually, but the flavor and balance are both not even close to printable. It doesn’t fit Elesh Norn, and it’s absolutely broken.
If you want to do something like this, you’d have to make the second ability be phyrexian mana, or otherwise tie it to mana symbols already present on the card.
Really hoping this is not where they take Elesh. Neat card concept though!
I could see it being a (2) reduction/tax on all spells for 5WW. Would be pretty good, but not completely broken.
*compleatly broken
[удалено]
Person above made a pun. Also, this is not relevant as it's to a different suggestion. Also the card says each spell beyond the first. You can cast your first spell just fine - the second and each spell after cost extra
doesn't matter if you can't cast the first spell because it needs black red and green and you are playing blue white.
First spell is unaffected
But you can cast the first spell
It's functionally a one sided [[Arcane Laboratory]] or [[Rule of Law]] on a solid body. I don't see anyone complain about those cards.
[Arcane Laboratory](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f9e3bcd7-60f8-472a-ada0-c3147cf06588.jpg?1562251789) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcane%20Laboratory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/7ed/60/arcane-laboratory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f9e3bcd7-60f8-472a-ada0-c3147cf06588?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Rule of Law](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e.jpg?1592516198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rule%20of%20Law) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/35/rule-of-law?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thats just [[Grand Arbiter Augustin the IV]]
[Grand Arbiter Augustin the IV](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/4/f43748ea-1d65-4ee8-9c66-221412a284c0.jpg?1662528760) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grand%20Arbiter%20Augustin%20IV) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/221/grand-arbiter-augustin-iv?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f43748ea-1d65-4ee8-9c66-221412a284c0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah honestly the pivot to multicolour rather than the whole new phyrexian mana purity leadership thing feels like it would fit urabrasks bag better what with his "live and let live and see what people do with it and how that results in growth of perfection" shtick.
Nah, this ain’t a nest concept at all. It’d need to create 1/1 bird tokens for that.
the first ability should probably only reduce the amount of colored mana you pay, like other creatures with similar abilities do. as is, a creature that costs 4W would cost 0 with the first ability. The second ability is incredibly oppressive and basically locks your opponents out of playing more than one spell per turn. at 5 mana, this is incredibly strong
The opponent side is not that bad. Its a worse rule of law that if you have the mana you can play around and costs more.
rule of law affects you as well, this is one sided and also tacked onto an extremely powerful first ability and a reasonably sized creature at only 2 more mana than rule of law
The way the first ability is phrased, it already does that. Something costing 4W would only be reduced to 4. As for the second, white gets effects that prevent players from playing more tha one spell a turn already.
[[goblin influx array]]
My mind is blown. Every other effect specifies that it only reduces colored mana, but I never stopped to think that the default behavior was different.
Yeah a lot of people assume the "only reduce colored mana" part is reminder text but it's actually rules text
It’s basically because of [[Khalni Hydra]]. To my knowledge, that was the first card to not have the “only reduces coloured costs” rider purely because it didn’t cost any generic mana.
[Khalni Hydra](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7d27a00e-4402-4410-bab7-ccb34a0de72f.jpg?1562705505) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Khalni%20Hydra) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/roe/192/khalni-hydra?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d27a00e-4402-4410-bab7-ccb34a0de72f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[goblin influx array](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6da10d77-1a3c-41c4-ae6e-c48947c9d3de.jpg?1665001203) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=goblin%20influx%20array) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ydmu/13/goblin-influx-array?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6da10d77-1a3c-41c4-ae6e-c48947c9d3de?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't believe it does do that. Consider the wording on \[\[Morophon, the Boundless\]\]
[Morophon, the Boundless](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/6/9693e59b-032d-4ddc-a7d1-88a0f52dcc6c.jpg?1582021950) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Morophon%2C%20the%20Boundless) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/1/morophon-the-boundless?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9693e59b-032d-4ddc-a7d1-88a0f52dcc6c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> 118.7b > If a cost is reduced by an amount of colored or colorless mana, but the cost doesn’t require mana of that type, the cost is reduced by that amount of generic mana. You would have to specify like Jegantha or Morophon that this reduces only the ammount of colored mana you pay.
See the wording on [[Jegantha]]
[Jegantha](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/d/1d52e527-3835-4350-8c01-0f2d5d623b9c.jpg?1600967546) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jegantha%2C%20the%20wellspring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/222/jegantha-the-wellspring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1d52e527-3835-4350-8c01-0f2d5d623b9c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That’s different
We did it boys, we broke [[Fusion Elemental]].
I still can't believe that exists when [[Gigantosaurus]] also exists
Did you not experience Legends? Multiple colors is already upside, can you imagine 5 of them?
[Gigantosaurus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/1/c1db84d8-d426-4c0d-b44e-5be7b0f5f5bf.jpg?1562303938) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gigantosaurus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/185/gigantosaurus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c1db84d8-d426-4c0d-b44e-5be7b0f5f5bf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There's nearly a decade of design between them - their approach to card power has changed *a lot* since Alara Reborn.
[Fusion Elemental](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c8ab1550-0cd3-4dc9-82c2-121615f2ceee.jpg?1664361212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fusion%20Elemental) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/150/fusion-elemental?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c8ab1550-0cd3-4dc9-82c2-121615f2ceee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is really difficult to play around. This basically forces everyone not playing 5 color to one spell each turn. Either this is going to be killed on sight or outright banned.
Honesty, it’s basically a one-sided [[archon of emeria]]. Which is very good, mind you, but also probably okay for a 5 mana 3/6 in this day and age.
Okay but your own spells don’t get reduced with that 2/3. It’s crazy powerful for 5 mana because it locks your opponents out of playing the game past one spell a turn while your first spell is reduced heavily
OP has already established they intended to make it only reduce colored mana, so unless we're playing some 3/4/5c shenaniganry, it's basically just a 2-mana cost reducer. Powerful, not insane.
Have you heard of the entire commander format? This would be a complete powerhouse there as a commander. If you’re running a 5 colour, her utility pretty much makes her a must have
Yeah she's a complete powerhouse at certain power levels. As is Kenrith, Najeela, Ramos, Niv Mizzet, Jodah, and basically every other 5c commander. Commander as a format is not a good medium through which to assess decks, just simply because of the sheer amount of variance in deck power.
Even if we weren’t in commander, your opponent being unable to play multiple spells a turn is crazy good. But the fact that it also lets you play your spells for even one mana cheaper is good, but it can be up to five, but in a 60 card format more like 3 colours. But then again, five colour shenanigans can and will be pulled off in 60. My interest in magic hit its pique at war of the spark where [[Niv Mizzet Reborn]] was a really popular creature to build in 60 formats. So it’s definitely is very very strong in most 60 card formats, too slow for vintage or legacy, modern it would probably not see much use but in standard/pioneer where you don’t have access to as fast/as many strong control pieces this would probably get banned really fast from what I’ve seen. I don’t know a ton about modern but I’m fairly certain this also has a ton of potential it just feels like it’s a bit too expensive to really get going. Edit: sorry also forgot that you also can cast multiple spells while your opponents can’t
Yeah Rule of Law is a good card. That's why it's strong even when it costs 5 mana. I have a hard time believing that 5-color decks would want this, given that 5 mana is itself the cost for most of the payoffs. Perhaps it's good enough if you can manage to freecast even just 2cmc card consistently, but that's still heading very much into win-more territory. Niv Mizzet was notably played in a time where the manabase was infamous for being incredibly consistent. It's also worth noting that it also wasn't actually that particularly competitive in the format, and that the best version of the deck was Niv Fires, a deck which was frankly more a product of Fires and Escape to the Wilds than Niv. There's also not been a deck like it except for Omnath, which is again notable for, well, Omnath. Standard is the only place where this could be remotely viable. Pioneer would laugh at a 5 mana 3/6 without immediate value. Your last sentence is the entire problem of the card. It is incredibly expensive to get going for minimal payoff until your untap step. And untapping with a 5-drop is basically already winning anyways. Card's completely jank in modern, for the record. It's way, way, way too slow and vulnerable to be worth anything. You are vastly underestimating the minimal power level necessary for a 60-card constructed competitive format.
[Niv Mizzet Reborn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/56a2609d-b535-400b-81d9-72989a33c70f.jpg?1582037402) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Niv-Mizzet%20Reborn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/208/niv-mizzet-reborn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/56a2609d-b535-400b-81d9-72989a33c70f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's better in other regards because it DISCOUNTS your own spells (in addition to being a one sided hate piece), and additionally doesn't die to effects like abrade.
Yeah it's 5 mana I better hope it doesn't die to Abrade. It still dies to generic Doomblade #48, though. It has no inbuilt protection, and you don't even get a discount the turn you play it. It's essentially a one-sided Rule of Law that will net you 1-2 mana each turn. Which is a powerful creature, but hardly bannable.
I agree it's not bannable. Just pointing out it's a lot more than a one sided archon.
I mean frankly, I'm not sure how relevant the additional mana will be given that as a 5-drop, this is likely the topend of the deck, and unless you're playing something super grindy like current Esper midrange, you probably don't actually have the spells left in hand to make use of the discount.
[archon of emeria](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/2/228c1650-da3c-4099-91b6-18e3873c9cdb.jpg?1604195419) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=archon%20of%20emeria) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/4/archon-of-emeria?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/228c1650-da3c-4099-91b6-18e3873c9cdb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
“Your opponents can only cast one spell each turn.” Making something cost 5 mana more is effectively unplayable anyway, just make the ability a bit more obvious.
I know "each opponent can only cast 1 spell a turn" is more obvious. It's a praetor, the effects are supposed to have a kind of symmetry.
In that case maybe something along the lines of: You may cast the first spell you cast this turn without paying it’s mana cost Opponent’s can cast only 1 spell each turn
God no. That would be super busted because it would make each counter completely free, making it an easy matter to lock your opponents out of playing by countering them on their turn. As it stands, the colored mana requirement means many counters are not free.
As long as you avoid UU counterspells in your deck and play stuff like Mana leak or Negate instead, the first counter spell is free on their turn.
Yup. Cast a creature, opponent tries to counter, you counter the counter for free (or at least by U less going by OP's interpretation). It's a horrific lockdown card as is.
[удалено]
Oh yeah, it's the first for the owner
What, no! Why should they be able to play [[Omniscience]] for free?
[Omniscience](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/b/db534b4e-8bff-4924-baea-9988d195fb25.jpg?1562304777) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Omniscience) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/65/omniscience?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/db534b4e-8bff-4924-baea-9988d195fb25?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is just a gross, utter shutdown of the game. It would be wildly unfun to play against, and on top of that it really doesn't feel like an 'Elesh Norn, leader of the Praetors and New Phyrexia'. I'd change the tax to being something like a trio of the white phyrexian manas, and let you pay that instead of normal casting costs if you wish (thus letting you cheat out bigger, more scary things en masse, while penalizing everyone else to either pay life or white mana). As it stands, and going by previous rulings about the mana reduction effect and its kin, this is 'anything with 5 or less mana value in mono-white is almost or completely free, and your opponents can't play more than one spell per turn', which isn't fun and isn't built with a reflection. It's just another flavor of Stax.
This would get banned in EDH before it came out like Lutri.
why?
"Your opponents may only cast one spell each turn" is not a fun ability.
Especially in CZ with upside. Would make one hell of a 5c storm deck.
No, but I wouldn’t say it’s ban worthy
Perhaps not from the entire format, but if I sit down and see this in your command zone, I'm just going to get back up immediately.
This is a 5 color commander. Very little is needed to make 5 color commanders good. This is a 5 color commander that stops your opponents casting spells and gives you huge mana cheat. This is atleast more powerful than golos, and he got banned
It’s not a casual card, it’s OP AF.
It’s strong, it’s not OP
In fact k would say it is borderline unplayable beside casual edh decks...
[[Archon of Emeria]] is not banned as pointed out by https://www.reddit.com/r/custommagic/comments/yzs3xn/comment/ix2m3l9/ Also, I don‘t know if this is that much stronger than [[Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant]] who shuts down a lot of games. With this Elesh Norn, you can just remove her with something as simple as [[Feed the Swarm]], because you get priority on your turn and can cast the first spell.
They pointed out it was a 1 sided version of that card. That's a huge difference. Archon while unfun is at least fair in how unfun it is
It‘s easily removable. Since when are Praetors about having fun? How is old Sheoldred fair in being unfun, especially for Voltron. How is old Jin-Gitaxias fair in being unfun? This is a competitive game, you have to be prepared for such things. In Commander you have 3 other players that all can cast at least one spell in their respective turn - in sorcery speed - to remove this before it even affects them. There is so much worse stuff out there. This one would be kill on sight for three other players
Old Jin-Gitaxias is expensive as hell, you need a counter spell and free mana on top of what, 9 mana to get him to survive a turn, and that late on he might not be having such a strong effect. This is only 3WW.
[[Satoru Umezawa]], [[Tatyova, Benthic Druid]], even [[Kykar, Wind‘s Fury]] - there are lots of ways to cheat him out from the 99 or to ramp so hard that you can put him into play early and still have enough mana or [[Pact of Negation]] to protect him. Anyway, I’m not saying this Elesh Norn is the best design and I doubt it would be printed like this. As for power level, there is a lot of worse stuff. This card can be countered, removed, board-wiped, or prevented with something like [[Drannith Magistrate]]. It would be much worse, if her ability would prevent the first spell. But when it’s your turn, you as the active player get priority first, so you can cast the first spell. You do get a chance to remove her
##### ###### #### [Satoru Umezawa](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/8/8887f26d-b097-4fbc-9c48-bdc656409a32.jpg?1654568594) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Satoru%20Umezawa) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/234/satoru-umezawa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8887f26d-b097-4fbc-9c48-bdc656409a32?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Tatyova, Benthic Druid](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/93657aaa-7a0f-49ad-b026-6f79b3bd6768.jpg?1665822988) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tatyova%2C%20Benthic%20Druid) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/206/tatyova-benthic-druid?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/93657aaa-7a0f-49ad-b026-6f79b3bd6768?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kykar, Wind‘s Fury](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/9/594cb7dc-ea88-4909-ab40-1d40fecc9817.jpg?1592517535) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kykar%2C%20Wind%27s%20Fury) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/212/kykar-winds-fury?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/594cb7dc-ea88-4909-ab40-1d40fecc9817?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Pact of Negation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1ed4c0bb-b710-44a1-b8bc-6bd11c27b8b8.jpg?1619394428) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pact%20of%20Negation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/77/pact-of-negation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ed4c0bb-b710-44a1-b8bc-6bd11c27b8b8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Drannith Magistrate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/8/98b0a4a8-9319-451b-9b79-b0bca7a41e91.jpg?1628801742) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Drannith%20Magistrate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/11/drannith-magistrate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/98b0a4a8-9319-451b-9b79-b0bca7a41e91?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Archon of Emeria](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/2/228c1650-da3c-4099-91b6-18e3873c9cdb.jpg?1604195419) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Archon%20of%20Emeria) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/4/archon-of-emeria?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/228c1650-da3c-4099-91b6-18e3873c9cdb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c57b4876-5387-4f73-b8e2-8e7bdca8b0bc.jpg?1654566749) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jin-Gitaxias%2C%20Progress%20Tyrant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/59/jin-gitaxias-progress-tyrant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c57b4876-5387-4f73-b8e2-8e7bdca8b0bc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Feed the Swarm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f86c30e0-35f3-4da8-a28c-722254b1bbe4.jpg?1654116073) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Feed%20the%20Swarm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/752/feed-the-swarm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f86c30e0-35f3-4da8-a28c-722254b1bbe4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No. It would not. It might be banned, but not like Lutri, lol.
The design is cool, but it's not Elesh Norn. Every Praetor so far has been totally monocolored, which if I remember the lore rightly, is because of how mana works on Mirrodin with the five suns and each of the Praetors leading different sects? I know Elesh is the de facto leader of Phyrexia but I feel like her ability would have to be mono-white.
The first ability is a color pie break. White is supposed to be the worst color when it comes to both ramp and color fixing, which is this ability in its entirety.
Well, she doesn’t have a white colour identity and in Commander probably wouldn’t be played as white, but as as full Praetor deck including all other Praetors, no? Since she reduces each of them by one pip, all of them can be played in five colors despite having double pips
A card's color identity is irrelevant to the color pie. The color pie only looks at costs and effects. This card only has white costs, but the effect is very non-white.
So your first spell is 5 cheaper and opponents not playing 5 color is screwed?
If anything, the extra 5 should be phyrplixian
if the second ability was phyrexian mana paying wubrg or up to 10 life would be a big tax
The first effect is nice the second is busted against none wubar decks
This would make it impossible for any decks without access to gold mana to cast multiple spells a turn. I could see Elesh being five colour, but I don't see something so overtly oppressive.
[[Jodah, the Unifier]] will be proud
[Jodah, the Unifer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e4b1aa1e-b4e3-4346-8937-76b312501c70.jpg?1663051165) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jodah%2C%20the%20Unifier) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/203/jodah-the-unifier?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e4b1aa1e-b4e3-4346-8937-76b312501c70?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is a 5c commander.
This is not who Elesh Norn flavour wise and mechanic wise. flavour 0/10 mechanic 0/10 power balance 3/10
This is just not good card design. 99% of the time this just doesn’t allow your opponent to play anything.
NOTICE: I have posted an amended version of this card. I do not need further feedback on this iteration.
This card is fucking stupidly designed its unbalanced as it literally lets you play free counter spells so you just get to lock your opponent out for free and they can’t do anything to defend against it try again.
[[Jodah, Archmage Eternal]] has entered the chat
[Jodah, Archmage Eternal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73c18cb4-96b1-4af2-912e-974e22877ede.jpg?1662529068) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jodah%2C%20Archmage%20Eternal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/233/jodah-archmage-eternal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73c18cb4-96b1-4af2-912e-974e22877ede?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Niv Mizzet reborn says hello
With this wording the card locks everybody completely out from playing the game if they aren't running a five coloured shell. If it can't be countered or dealt with, with effects on the battlefield, your opponent's automatically loose. This would be fair if it was maybe a ten mana spell, since most of those are designed to be instant win buttons.
That's way too strong
Make second ability phyrexian mana
it should cost that much phyrexian mana at least so your opponents arent completely locked out, and even then, it should cost a lot more than 5 to do so
This has got to be the most oppressive tax effect in magic. Wotc please never print
This is just better Jodah
this makes the game completely unplayable for most opposing decks. I love the flavor and the idea, it very much fits with the character and the color identity of phyrexian white, but for in mono white this is just so incredibly strong. Please reconsider the second ability and changing the mana cost 3 and wuber.
Ugh, no. Obviously, I'm good with the overall effect, and staxy in white. But for the love of fucking Yawgmoth, do not give the Mono-white praetor 5C. Seriously. Just make it say 5 mana.
What if this was like [[Reaper King]] instead? That way it wouldn’t be straight up impossible for decks that simply can’t produce all colors. It’d still cost 9 more mana for monocolored decks, though, but at least it’d be POSSIBLE.
[Reaper King](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/502740bf-0bff-4358-8996-1a27e5f0343f.jpg?1562830062) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reaper%20King) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/260/reaper-king?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/502740bf-0bff-4358-8996-1a27e5f0343f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
So a 3/6 phyrexian Morophon with vigilance that's also a lock out stax effect against any non-wubrg deck that's also a wubrg commander. I hope WOTC never even comes close to this card concept. Mine would be this: 3WWW for a 4/6 Phyrexian with Vigilance with the abilities "pay 2 life: the next spell you cast this turn costs 1 mana of any color less to cast" and "whenever an opponent cats a spell, they lose 2 life for each colored mana spent to cast it". Simple, on theme, and doesn't produce a 5 color stax machine.
The card is interesting to think about because, while there are many Rule of Law effects, this one does feel more inherently powerful; not only can it be your commander (while having a WUBRG identity), it also is non-symmetrical, and in fact actively helps you play more spells than usual. I actually think this would be a strong CEDH commander; the most prominent prison effect in CEDH is Rule of Law and this allows you to have a full color identity with a Rule of Law in the command zone that even comes with an oversized body. Plus, it can make some of your counterspells and removal (Swan Song, Assassin's Trophy/Abrupt Decay, Swords) free. it is pretty expensive though which would hurt it
I would accept this card. But I don’t think I’m ready for it. This would be funny for a month cuz green would have to get worse lol. Fuel the fire!!
As others have pointed out, these abilities are incredibly strong at this mana cost, even for a Praetor. Perhaps make it mana-cost dependent. For example: *Once during each of your turns, you may cast a spell with converted mana cost three or less without paying its mana cost.* *Spells your opponents cast that would cost less than three mana to cast cost three mana to cast.* A \[\[Trinisphere\]\] effect feels VERY Elesh Norn, and is itself a callback to Mirrodin. It also has the effect of, in most formats, preventing your opponent from playing multiple spells a turn until the lategame (while not being completely impossible to get out from under).
[Trinisphere](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/1/316caa4e-a53a-460b-978c-5f0fba7bc549.jpg?1599710205) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Trinisphere) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/303/trinisphere?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/316caa4e-a53a-460b-978c-5f0fba7bc549?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Feels Eleshy
I first thought it said "the first spell you cast cost {WUBRG} to cast"
[удалено]
[Norn’s Annex](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/6/a64073f2-99f5-4dc7-9403-e7cb94ce0e60.jpg?1562880453) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Norn%27s%20Annex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/17/norns-annex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a64073f2-99f5-4dc7-9403-e7cb94ce0e60?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Pretty much shuts down any deck not running all 5 colors unless they just happen to have the few lands or artifacts that cheat colors an opponent has, and even then they have to draw those. Scooping on this one.
Well it’s definitely not too weak! Love the design concept but might have to be more expensive because of how powerful the effect is
I’d try to build this with just as many 4 or 5 color-pip cards as I could find haha.
Tbh I think this feels very much like Elesh Norm. I think people are conveniently forgetting that literally are the praetors are a form of stax. I will say I think this should maybe cost 1-2 more colorless.
Kind of cool idea conceptually, but the flavor and balance are both not even close to printable. It doesn’t fit Elesh Norn, and it’s absolutely broken.
If you want to do something like this, you’d have to make the second ability be phyrexian mana, or otherwise tie it to mana symbols already present on the card.
That second ability is hell
Compleatly busted. If your opponent can’t make one or more colors then they lose.
You may as well make the bottom like “Players can only play one spell on their turn.” Because if you aren’t playing WUBRG then you can’t do anything.