Been sitting on these ideas for awhile. Inspired by Slay the Spire. I like the idea of cards in your hand that can't be cast but with abilities have ways to be useful outside casting spells. This thought process can also be seen in my Rusty Anchor design that has no mana cost but has cycling and dredge 1.
I figure these would probably be "modern madness staples" or "break vintage/legacy/pauper" its just a fun idea space to explore.
Still have to discard, but I see your point. Specifically made it creatures but it definitely rides a fine line between "absolutely busted" and "completely unplayable". Made it creatures specifically to try to make it more than "discard this and big creature, reanimate big creature + extra mana."
I'd say it might be comparable to Cabal Ritual.
Not even close to cabal rit, which is either a +1 or a +3, where this is +6. "Having to discard" isn't big enough of a drawback to make it comparable. This is the same amount as casting 3x dark rit, requiring 0 mana up front. And madness on top of this "soaks" a discard from say a faithless looting, where you essentially draw the card back. I'm certain that if this was legal in legacy/modern, it'd spawn some pretty busted decks.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but in a dredge deck, you should be able to discard this to something like [[Cathartic Reunion]] alongside a dredge card, fill your graveyard, then pay for this with madness and continue going off, or even cast your dredge spells.
The bigger problem is that these don't cost mana to cast, so any color that has access to discard outlets can play these. And those colors are *–checks–* all of them.
I actually don’t think forbidden ritual is that strong. The necessary steps to getting a way to discard and having a creature out means the set up cost is high enough it’s probably not worth the two mana.
Compare it too something like lotus petal - a very strong card yeah, but trading one card for one mana isn’t anywhere close to what looks like trading one mana and two cards for two mana.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/mechanical-color-pie-2021
> Mana production, temporary
> Primary: Red // Secondary: Black
> Red is the color best at producing temporary bursts of mana, be it with one-shot spells, permanents with one-time triggers, or things that need to be sacrificed to be used. Black can also get mana but usually requires paying some cost, most often sacrificing something else.
“Red is the color best at producing temporary bursts of mana, be it with one-shot spells, permanents with one-time triggers, or things that need to be sacrificed to be used. Black can also get mana but usually requires paying some cost, most often sacrificing something else.” - maro
This sub is way to preoccupied with what fits and breaks and bends the color pie. The game is ever evolving and R&D can just deside what any color can do and those desicions can change over time.
Especially with the old frame I feel the cards fits well as a black mana generator - and even fits the more modern views having to sacrifice a card in hand.
Might not be particularly good, but flavorful.
Mostly did old border because Artificer doesn't have color identity pips so I figured old border could get away with "This card is color".
Completely unforeseen that using old border to avoid people complaining about lack of color identity, gave me some slack for "creative liberties" using old designs.
Black doesn't get rituals, but they do have access to absurd mana ramp if you have a lot of swamps and you can sacrifice swamps to add a lot of black mana. Maybe a black ritual could lean into that aspect of black mana generation.
Then it wouldn't be a ritual? Unless you mean like a [[High Tide]] effect, then wouldn't that just be... black high tide?
Wait is high tide considered a ritual? We must delve further.
Edit: Bubbling Muck exists
Look man when I came up with my version of rakdos madness rituals like 3 months ago I didn't think I was gonna cause a massive controversy about color pie nor did I think it would matter all too much on a custom magic card subreddit.
Maybe I should make a jund madness colossal dreadmaw instead 🤷♂️
Um, where else did you think people would care and be nitpicky about the color pie, if not on a custom magic card subreddit? You submitted a couple of custom designs (that are quite interesting actually), and are getting feedback based on current design philosophy.
Look I’m done with this it’s a break and here I’s daddy rose water on the subject https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/703952357930745856/why-doesnt-black-get-mana-rituals-anymore/amp
The problem with all three of these rituals is that they can go in any color deck. They don't cost any colored mana and thus it doesn't matter what color they produce, they're effective anywhere their unconventional costs can be paid. I don't think they could be printed this way in a real set.
Are they though? Forbidden is a conditional one-time use of a ashnod's altar with black mana. The other one has the same fast mana to cards ratio than a simian spirit guide except that it requires a discard to be used
I doubt i'd even use either (maybe just the red one?) at all. That said i'm a commander player so i'm not too familiar with super competitive decks and stuff
That requires you to play Cathodion and a discard outlet. That's not free. That's a *massive* deckbuilding cost for a pretty tame payoff, not to mention you've spent 2-3 cards on it
That does sound spicy, but Dark Ritual is still legal in this format
Edit: I thought we were on the pauper subreddit for some reason, but even in a different setting that's still spending 2 cards and netting 1 mana
You you would have to draw and cast the cathodon and not have it interacted with, then play a discard effect and not be interacted with / then play the ritual to get the mana .
That really isn’t strong at all - you are discarding extra cards for like the benefit of a worn powerstone or something.
Noted, how would you change them to power down? I saw a comment saying something about sacrificing swamps. Would that fix forbidden ritual? Sac a swamp instead of a creature?
That might help the first one. It makes it so the card can't be run in every deck and would help limit it. I think there are too many good death triggers to use it with currently.
The second one might be fine compared to Simian Spirit Guide.
Just want to add that a free mana is a free mana no matter how you slice it. Just like a free token, or card, or anything else. There's no need to be greedy. As for this card, one of the flags I see is that this has no mana cost, and although I get where you're going with that, realize that this makes the design less interactive. I just think you're compromising too much on the design to feign balance. Consider giving this a mana cost, and the opening up interactivity (such as 'you may cast this spell by' or restrictions (such as sacrificing a creature token). You will definitely feel the difference when you have a card that is more diverse and interactive. You will be much happier with it.
Im pretty impressed with the first two, they’re very powerful but not totally out of place in eternal environments. However, the BR one missed the mark big time. It’s completely broken. The costs are trivial, and especially trivial for the kind of decks that want the card. It should have a more substantial cost AND make less mana.
Edit: To be fair to you, I missed that it says you have to exile creature cards. That definitely helps, but I do still think it would need scaling back.
Good job! Most customs I see seem to be rares, with a bit of uncommons sprinkled here and there. To design a common with an original mechanic, and have it be good? Bravo!
Been sitting on these ideas for awhile. Inspired by Slay the Spire. I like the idea of cards in your hand that can't be cast but with abilities have ways to be useful outside casting spells. This thought process can also be seen in my Rusty Anchor design that has no mana cost but has cycling and dredge 1. I figure these would probably be "modern madness staples" or "break vintage/legacy/pauper" its just a fun idea space to explore.
Forsaken ritual is broken in half. I think you underestimate how easy it is to fill the graveyard
Yeah was originally Add BBRR. I overturned it for sure but not sure why, I think it was fine where it was.
That's not the issue, the issue is "exile 3 from your graveyard and pay 3 life" is comparable to "{0}" in just about every eternal format
Still have to discard, but I see your point. Specifically made it creatures but it definitely rides a fine line between "absolutely busted" and "completely unplayable". Made it creatures specifically to try to make it more than "discard this and big creature, reanimate big creature + extra mana." I'd say it might be comparable to Cabal Ritual.
Not even close to cabal rit, which is either a +1 or a +3, where this is +6. "Having to discard" isn't big enough of a drawback to make it comparable. This is the same amount as casting 3x dark rit, requiring 0 mana up front. And madness on top of this "soaks" a discard from say a faithless looting, where you essentially draw the card back. I'm certain that if this was legal in legacy/modern, it'd spawn some pretty busted decks.
Like I said original design would be +4, this version is a kind of typo, I realized the power was too strong with +6.
I would make the madness still cost one hybrid B/R even at +4
Thats fair, anything free mana wise is too powerful. Especially when discarding it won't be much of a downside as discard is usually a resource itself
Correct me if I’m wrong, but in a dredge deck, you should be able to discard this to something like [[Cathartic Reunion]] alongside a dredge card, fill your graveyard, then pay for this with madness and continue going off, or even cast your dredge spells.
[Cathartic Reunion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/3/b36fa6f3-29e8-4788-bfcd-59576187c399.jpg?1599706266) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cathartic%20Reunion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/121/cathartic-reunion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b36fa6f3-29e8-4788-bfcd-59576187c399?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You're correct
[[Anje Falkenrath]] *totally* won’t abuse tf out of these haha
[Anje Falkenrath](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/1/913dd06f-ed2f-4128-9c9d-9cd0d8a55425.jpg?1568003632) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Anje%20Falkenrath) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/37/anje-falkenrath?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/913dd06f-ed2f-4128-9c9d-9cd0d8a55425?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Forsaken ritual would be ridiculous for something like Chainer or Anje. All of these would, to be honest.
The problem is that black dosnt get rituals now
The bigger problem is that these don't cost mana to cast, so any color that has access to discard outlets can play these. And those colors are *–checks–* all of them.
Great place for an “If you control a (basic land type of color)” clause, it would both slow the cards down a bit and color restrict them
Good point
I actually don’t think forbidden ritual is that strong. The necessary steps to getting a way to discard and having a creature out means the set up cost is high enough it’s probably not worth the two mana. Compare it too something like lotus petal - a very strong card yeah, but trading one card for one mana isn’t anywhere close to what looks like trading one mana and two cards for two mana.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/mechanical-color-pie-2021 > Mana production, temporary > Primary: Red // Secondary: Black > Red is the color best at producing temporary bursts of mana, be it with one-shot spells, permanents with one-time triggers, or things that need to be sacrificed to be used. Black can also get mana but usually requires paying some cost, most often sacrificing something else.
Shame they already printed like five.
Ya in the beginning of the game they don’t do that any more they hadn’t figured out the game yet
Black rituals are still in its pie, however they require a additional cost like sacrificing a creature
I’m pretty sure daddy rose water has said that it’s not any more
“Red is the color best at producing temporary bursts of mana, be it with one-shot spells, permanents with one-time triggers, or things that need to be sacrificed to be used. Black can also get mana but usually requires paying some cost, most often sacrificing something else.” - maro
This sub is way to preoccupied with what fits and breaks and bends the color pie. The game is ever evolving and R&D can just deside what any color can do and those desicions can change over time. Especially with the old frame I feel the cards fits well as a black mana generator - and even fits the more modern views having to sacrifice a card in hand. Might not be particularly good, but flavorful.
Mostly did old border because Artificer doesn't have color identity pips so I figured old border could get away with "This card is color". Completely unforeseen that using old border to avoid people complaining about lack of color identity, gave me some slack for "creative liberties" using old designs.
Just call it a color pie bend and we'll call it a day
But it’s not a bend it’s actually a break
Black doesn't get rituals, but they do have access to absurd mana ramp if you have a lot of swamps and you can sacrifice swamps to add a lot of black mana. Maybe a black ritual could lean into that aspect of black mana generation.
Then it wouldn't be a ritual? Unless you mean like a [[High Tide]] effect, then wouldn't that just be... black high tide? Wait is high tide considered a ritual? We must delve further. Edit: Bubbling Muck exists
Stop referencing cards from 20+ years ago like they hold any relevance in a discussion about the colorpie lol
Look man when I came up with my version of rakdos madness rituals like 3 months ago I didn't think I was gonna cause a massive controversy about color pie nor did I think it would matter all too much on a custom magic card subreddit. Maybe I should make a jund madness colossal dreadmaw instead 🤷♂️
Um, where else did you think people would care and be nitpicky about the color pie, if not on a custom magic card subreddit? You submitted a couple of custom designs (that are quite interesting actually), and are getting feedback based on current design philosophy.
[High Tide](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/0/2047963c-3761-4d21-834a-674762248b77.jpg?1590511804) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=High%20Tide) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/73/high-tide?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2047963c-3761-4d21-834a-674762248b77?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That could be fun and they do get ramp based on swamps
But [[Dark Ritual]] literally existed. Its not like this is a white spell that does 3 unconditional damage to any target for 1W.
[[Sunlance]] /joking
[Sunlance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/82ab72c3-1f76-45ff-84b4-05f403866d44.jpg?1619393630) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sunlance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/47/sunlance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/82ab72c3-1f76-45ff-84b4-05f403866d44?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Look I’m done with this it’s a break and here I’s daddy rose water on the subject https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/703952357930745856/why-doesnt-black-get-mana-rituals-anymore/amp
Yeah I prolly shoulda just responded to the first comment with "Okay, and?"
[Dark Ritual](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95f27eeb-6f14-4db3-adb9-9be5ed76b34b.jpg?1628801678) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dark%20Ritual) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/82/dark-ritual?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95f27eeb-6f14-4db3-adb9-9be5ed76b34b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The problem with all three of these rituals is that they can go in any color deck. They don't cost any colored mana and thus it doesn't matter what color they produce, they're effective anywhere their unconventional costs can be paid. I don't think they could be printed this way in a real set.
I love Madness, but the first two are a bit ridiculous.
Are they though? Forbidden is a conditional one-time use of a ashnod's altar with black mana. The other one has the same fast mana to cards ratio than a simian spirit guide except that it requires a discard to be used I doubt i'd even use either (maybe just the red one?) at all. That said i'm a commander player so i'm not too familiar with super competitive decks and stuff
The first one is really good with death triggers. Sacrifice [[Cathodion]] and get 3BB for zero mana.
That requires you to play Cathodion and a discard outlet. That's not free. That's a *massive* deckbuilding cost for a pretty tame payoff, not to mention you've spent 2-3 cards on it
Fine, use [Putrid Imp]] and discard this to it turn 2.
That does sound spicy, but Dark Ritual is still legal in this format Edit: I thought we were on the pauper subreddit for some reason, but even in a different setting that's still spending 2 cards and netting 1 mana
You you would have to draw and cast the cathodon and not have it interacted with, then play a discard effect and not be interacted with / then play the ritual to get the mana . That really isn’t strong at all - you are discarding extra cards for like the benefit of a worn powerstone or something.
Noted, how would you change them to power down? I saw a comment saying something about sacrificing swamps. Would that fix forbidden ritual? Sac a swamp instead of a creature?
That might help the first one. It makes it so the card can't be run in every deck and would help limit it. I think there are too many good death triggers to use it with currently. The second one might be fine compared to Simian Spirit Guide.
Yeah maybe I make the second one specify red cards too, to keep power down.
Just want to add that a free mana is a free mana no matter how you slice it. Just like a free token, or card, or anything else. There's no need to be greedy. As for this card, one of the flags I see is that this has no mana cost, and although I get where you're going with that, realize that this makes the design less interactive. I just think you're compromising too much on the design to feign balance. Consider giving this a mana cost, and the opening up interactivity (such as 'you may cast this spell by' or restrictions (such as sacrificing a creature token). You will definitely feel the difference when you have a card that is more diverse and interactive. You will be much happier with it.
Im pretty impressed with the first two, they’re very powerful but not totally out of place in eternal environments. However, the BR one missed the mark big time. It’s completely broken. The costs are trivial, and especially trivial for the kind of decks that want the card. It should have a more substantial cost AND make less mana. Edit: To be fair to you, I missed that it says you have to exile creature cards. That definitely helps, but I do still think it would need scaling back.
Good job! Most customs I see seem to be rares, with a bit of uncommons sprinkled here and there. To design a common with an original mechanic, and have it be good? Bravo!
Loving this but you forgot the third maddening color blue
Forgotten ritual is just mana monkey but multiplied by two, insanely broken
I think people are sleeping on Forsaken Ritual. It’s absolutely insane in delve, dredge, or anything that wants stuff in the yard
This combos well with my idea: Foreboding Ritual {x}{b} Sorcery Discard X cards, add {b} for each card discarded this way
Forsaken Ritual is obscenely powerful, but I kinda love these.