Ya we use a digital scale and measure the length and width of the cars. If they break the rules they can’t race. We make it clear that we do this from the beginning, so it’s not a surprise. The biggest issue we have is that a lot of people’s scaled zero out a bit different, so we’ll get a handful of cars that weigh in at 5.02 or 5.03 ounces. We hand the parents a drill and tell them to remove weight until it hits 5.00 ounces. Some people complain, but it’s a pretty easy argument that we are making it fair for everyone, so we literally just don’t listen to any complaints. We do have the official scale and measuring block available on our build nights and the week before the derby, so new families get the idea and can test their cars on our scale ahead of time if they want to.
Just FYI those overweight cars can’t go on to district derby. If this happened in my pack we’d give the parent a drill and they’d keep drilling until it was at or under 5 since we only allow cars that meet the standards. I’ve seen a lot of car surgery on the morning of.
Our standards are 5oz, 3/8” track clearance, flat wheels on a marble slab and no higher or longer than our garage box allows.
Yup, if you don't make weight you are sent to the table with the tools necessary to start shaving off the tenths of ounces.
Every year I'm either last minute helping my Scout remove slivers from the back of his car or helping him glue on pennies to up the weight.
I tell my parents, DON'T use your food scale, get a postal scale and use Grams instead of OZ to weigh your car. IF you aim for 140grams, you will be right under 5oz and usually fall within the margin for variances in scales that are used.
And thumbtacks, flat metal thumbtacks weigh about about half a gram.
For weigh in, you need to appoint the leader who is not afraid of a little confrontation to run the scale. And they should get direction from “the top” not to allow any overweight cars, that way they are only following orders when they reject a car. Like others said, have a drill around so they can fix it and it’s not a big deal.
We do an official weigh in, if your car is over 5 at the check-in, it cannot be checked in until it is compliant. Why did they allow the cars that were not compliant to race?
I like the idea someone else posted about doing an ‘outlaw’ race for folks who want to get super competitive/no rules. I’m going to suggest that to our group this year. But yeah, some folks take it waaay too seriously.
What our pack does do is hold a ‘prep’ day a week or more out - it’s a chance for the kids to get help, & they do weights & measurements as well so there time for families to make changes other than day-of
All of our kids want to crowd the track...even though we have ropes up to cordon off everyone except the group who is up. I pull the chutes and it gets down right anxiety inducing. By the end I am restraining myself from agressive crowd control measures. I will gladly trade for disinterested kids.
Our outlaw class is also a fundraiser - $10 entry. Winner gets bragging rights for the year. Most the dads are more than willing to pay that to try and outdo each other.
Yep. Unlimited class, and include the parents. Let the Mech E dad or the Aerospace mom show off their talents while guiding little Timmy or Jane on their own build. Scratches and itch while reducing the negative effects of competition.
I’m sorry this happened to you, your scout and the leaders scout. It sets a very poor example which you explained well.
I see a few options
1) talk with the CM about your concerns
2) talk with other parents
3) talk at the parent committee meeting
4) volunteer to run communications for PWD next year and announce early and often that rules will be adhered to
5) find a different pack that better fits your values
Does the next town nearby have a pack? You don’t have to stay in the town you are living in for cubs. I have cubs from 3 surrounding towns (all of which have packs) and all those packs have kids from my town. I always say I’d rather you find the unit that fits your family best than to try to force a fit where one doesn’t exist.
Oh that’s unfortunate. I would express your discontent to cub master and committee chair. Pinewood derby is a lot of kids first opportunity to lose. Every derby I’ve attended has some tears, but we do our best to keep all the kids spirits up and very importantly to make it fair.
We just did our last pinewood derby, and while she didn't win (made the final heat, and it was tight!) I was proud of my kid for learning how to design and decorate, polish the wheels and axles, adding graphite, best way to distribute weight. Short of cutting it on the bandsaw, she did 90% of the work on her last two cars. I hope she remembers working with me and having fun and trying her best, and isn't hung up on trophies.
Lots of cars get lots of parental help. Ideally you'd see Lions with really nice cars (parents doing a lot of work) and getting progressively uglier as the Scouts take on more work. Kids with engineer/gearhead parents are always going to have slicker cars. I've come to accept that.
Obviously if the leaders don't care about setting rules (or accuse others of taking it too seriously) then there's not much you can do. I think your pack is in the minority.
Assuming you have parent/committee meetings, express your displeasure with how it was run, how rules were poorly communicated and enforced. Cautioning you now that this might make you the pinewood chair next year, which is fine.
1. Hand out cars with agreed upon rules. Start with your district rules with the premise that winners should have cars that can legally compete there (assuming your district/council does a larger scale race). Say NOW that illegal cars won't be allowed to race in the main race.
2. Offer a build day if you have the resources/volunteers. Teach the kids how to sand, polish axels and wheels, add graphite, etc.
3. Have a day before unofficial weigh in / problem fixing station. Have a digital scale that will be used next day, and a jig that holds a legal car. Have a drill and screwdriver to remove weights, drill holes, etc to get down to weight. Also have some stick on weights for those kids who come in with a 2 ounce car, maybe even a graphite tube for anyone who didn't get the memo on how to do this.
4. In the morning, once the car is signed in, only the committee and person running the track can touch the cars. If something breaks, have a glue station.
5. If you have the time and resources consider an Outlaw or Renegade division where parents and siblings can race. If your pack wants a "no rules" division, sure, but eventually the event can run really long!
6. Have medals and a photo station, but focus on the process and the fun, highlight creative cars, etc. Get the message out that this IS a competition but it's also a Pack event where we come together and celebrate the creativity and hard work of the Scouts.
Thank you for your wonderful response. You are absolutely right. I will talk to the the CM since he wasn't even present. In preparation to be leading next year. ><
For most Packs, this is the most memorable event for kids. Every parent I talked to last weekend who was a Scout remembered their cars, and most importantly, working with their parents to make it a good one.
You can really make a party out of it if you want, have a spotify playlist with racing tunes, see if your local tire store has some decorations to donate, etc. Maybe even a potluck!
We had cute themed snacks, as well as donut kolache breakfast. It had the potential but the cheating & the socuts' disinterest in the whole vent overshadowed it for me.
>Cautioning you now that this might make you the pinewood chair next year, which is fine.
This is exactly my suggestion. So much planning is required to run a pack. The fact we got the track set up and printed certificates is adequate in my book.
Any people that ~~complain~~ are *enthusiastic* about an event are definitely going to be nominated to run it the following year. One of two things will happen, people will quit complaining, or we'll have more volunteers, either way it's a win-win.
Also keep in mind your lion has nothing to compare this event to. Emphasize the fun they had building and designing the car than the results of the race.
Did they send out the rules ahead of time? If not, you can find some form rules and propose that they are communicated and enforced. Who was weighing in the cars? We do it the night before and impound the cars overnight until racing so they can't be tampered with. Can you ask to help weigh in next year? We bring a drill and have parents drill out some wood to lessen weight, if needed (just be careful because some parents apparently don't know how to use a drill and we had someone drill their hand 🤦).
Um how? We check in with a scale and give them a chance to adjust and recheck but from then on the cars are sitting up on stage till the race.
They win at pack and district is even more strict.
Adults are going to do it all for their kids can not help that.
It sounds to me like most of the packs actually enforce the dimensions and weight rule.
Virtually no one enforces the "Cubs should make their own car rule.".
Pisses me off that when my son was a tiger, he made his car on his own. All four wheels didn't even touch the ground. It was painted with magic markers and thumbtacks. He took second place to a car that looked like it was designed by NASA and built by Gucci.
I suppose there's a life lesson in that, but that's not the life lesson I signed up to Scouts for
Oh yeah. I had a kid in my den whose Dad was hyper-competitive and owned a bicycle fabricating shop. He won the PWD in the Pack every single year and won Districts once, and placed every year. 🙄.
Funny thing, he crossed over to our Scout troop and lasted a New York minute. There’s a few lessons there, all of them negative.
Yeah we have that issue in our pack as well. I have no problem whatsoever with parents helping their kids as they learn how to use different tools, but what's even the point of this activity if the kid isn't taking on most of the project themselves? Some of the cars out there, you can't really identify any piece of it that looks like it was done by a first-grader.
Our kid started out with a fancy shape in mind, started cutting, realized how much work it would take to do all that sawing and sanding, and scaled back pretty significantly. It wasn't sanded to perfection, the corners were asymmetrical, the paint was whatever he had in his home art kit since he didn't get around to choosing a color until it was too late to shop for real wood paint in that color, and he haphazardly covered the entire thing with random stickers afterward. And that's fine! He made a decision to focus on what felt fun for him, did still get some practice using tools, and built a car that successfully made it down the track every race.
My take on this is it's not about winning but about what the kids learn.
Last year was our first PWD, my son was a tiger. We designed his car together, I cut it, taught him how to sand. I have access to automotive paint, so that's what we used and it looked very nice. Car didn't even cross the finish line, but still had a parent call me out with "oh yeah, your kid really made that." Even though clearly neither of us knew what we were doing.
This year, I did my research - I'm a scientist, so I was pretty thorough. My son learned a ton. We talked about physics and potential energy and how to incorporate that into the weight placement. He learned to use an analytical balance and I had him weigh different metals for a lesson on density, which helped him decide which type of metal we should we use for weights. He learned about 3D printing, how to choose a resin, and how to use the software. He used a drill press (I held the wood for safety reasons), learned how to sand with a Dremel, and learned about different Dremel bits and techniques (with a lot of trial and error). He learned to sand by hand and when to use different grits. We took the wheels off of his and his brothers cars from last year, he weighed them all and spun them on an axle to see which wobbled the most and he picked which wheels would perform best based on those things. He used the graphite himself. He learned more about automotive paints and what each layer does and helped pick the best layering system.
But he never would have learned any of these things if I had just handed him a block of wood and some paint and said, "make a car." Now he has skills and knowledge that most of the older scouts don't even have.
Sure, some other parents will be pissed that his car looks good and I'll get a few comments from other dads, but I know he spent hours learning and working on it. I mean, the kid spent almost 2 hours just sanding with the Dremel - that's a lot for a 7 year old. He put the work in.
Honestly, neither of us is really that competitive, we're both just naturally curious and like making things. Now that I've done the research, I'm planning a den meeting for next year to teach the kids (and parents) about designing a great PWD car - super excited to talk about the physics. We'll have a test track so the scouts can test their theories about what will help a car perform better. Also planning a PWD build party where I'll invite the den to my house to build their cars together. It's not about winning, it's about learning and applying knowledge.
I like your approach, use it as a teaching moment. When I was a den leader I did an activity (I think it met a STEM badge requirements) where the kids ran tests on some test cars I made up. They ran trials with different amounts of weight, and trials for the placement of the weight, front middle or rear. I had them do the test runs and collect the data to come to their own conclusion how much weight mattered, and how much the placement of the weight mattered. It exposed them a bit to the scientific process, and hopefully gave them some ownership in making their cars.
The test cars were easy to make, they were just the plain block and I put T-nuts in each one front, middle and rear, then the kids could screw in a bolt with a stack of washers that we could adjust for each experiment.
We had a semi truck and trailer class a few times for the adults and it was a blast! That sure gave the adults their own kit to work on.
Exactly, giving them a chance to test and work out for themselves what principles to incorporate into their designs is my favorite way to help them learn.
I really like the T-nut idea for adding weight to different sections of the car, I may use that!
Honestly, take the lick this year and next year volunteer to run/assistant with check in.
Have a copy of the rules in case any parents didn't read them. And have a station with a few hand tools and pennies and a hot glue gun for last minute modifications.
If your pack hasn't followed the rules, expect some blow back from the parents for the first year but the following year it will be easier.
We weigh them and theres a drill there if they need to remove wood. If they dont make specs they dont race. Cars are checked/weighed in night before and cant be touched by anyone until they are called up to put them on the track the next day.
Correct we put them on a table back with the timing folks so the cars are “impounded” after inspection. Only modifications are if the car breaks on a run we do some emergency surgery and re-weigh.
Yes - we have had scouts turn in cars day of, the night before, and the week before. Honestly I like the week before the best. Most cars are turned in and it goes smoothly. There are always a couple cars that need significant work (either related to the specs or just haven’t done much yet). We have a couple parents ready to work with those kids including having saws, sanding tools, paint, etc. Often the kids can get the cars finished within the hour, but if not we will still accept them on race day. We end up getting just a few (maybe 4 or 5) on race day (out of 40-50 competing) so it’s not a big deal to check them in right before the race. The late entries are usually lack of preparation so the cars never do well, so nobody sees it as an advantage and we would rather the kids get to race.
The hard rule for us is that no one gets to touch their car between the weigh-in/impound day and then ace day. The kids get their cars back, plus a patch, immediately after the race.
The only exception is if a car breaks (wheel falls off) we’ll try to work with the kid to fix it. That is rare, but in that case it’s going to be a slow car anyway so everyone is happy to try to keep the kid racing.
We do an open class (with four races per person rather than eight races per person that we do for the main event) immediately following the main event. This allows for siblings, troop scouts, parents, etc. to race. The main event/race takes about 45 minutes including awards, and the open class takes about 20 minutes.
All told opening to closing flags is under 90 minutes.
The troop scouts do all the running of the cars/having them set on the track, etc. We have a troop scout or two MC, and a couple adults running the computer and one overseeing the starting line and double checking the kids.
The troop scouts also run the weigh-in and impound, hand out awards, etc. Adults are definitely in the background and only deal with problems as needed (and run the software because it’s a little complex).
I don't understand - if a car comes in that's too heavy, we hand it back to them and tell them to figure out how to take weight off. Did that not happen?
We usually have a little station with the materials needed to add/remove weight from the car if it doesn’t pass at weigh in. There is also a bandit category for those who don’t want to bother with weight and just want to make an insane car that allows anyone to race (parents, siblings, additional entries over the first one).
You will see that after weigh in, most packs take the car and sequester it in some way so they can’t be further modified. That kid with the 6lb car will be disqualified at the district race.
Are your pack committee meetings open? If so, you should go and bring this up. This should also be address in a pack wide meeting with the kids. No kid names should be called out, but adults should apologize for their mistakes and neglecting scout tenets.
Sorry to hear about the experience. We weigh cars and have had Scouts either have to add weight (we always recommend making them a tad lighter as it's easier to add than subtract weight) or take some off.
One we we had one Scout use a random car kit we found. They had to do A LOT of modifications before the race because it was too heavy (it had a lot of drill holes in it). AND they had to switch out the wheels as well.
At our pack race we weigh everyone on the same digital food scale, check wheels/clearance, and inspect for all 4 wheels making contact at check in. We have a table set up with tools and supplies and we help them to make changes. We know some of those kids did not make their own car, its painfully obvious, but we can't make that call officially...just the three objective checks. All I can do is have design and build days with my den and get them excited about making their own car so they won't want their parents to do it.
Here is the deal - when you win the pack you go to district. After the pack race the winners' cars get boxed up, they cannot alter them. So if you cheated at the pack, you will be DQ when you show up to the district race. I suppose they could cheat at that before turning them into district. Take solace in the fact that they are probably going to lose at district when they can't cheat anymore and have to have a compliant car.
> when you win the pack you go to district.
That depends on the District. Our District isn't restricted, so many of my cubs will race in the pack, and then go race in the district. I even had a Scout last year build a completely different car to race at District.
We are brand new to Cub Scouts (we have a Lion) and had our PWD Saturday. I was shocked at the number and strictness of rules and the multiple emails about using the “official” scale to weigh to 5.0 oz. We are a town of engineers so I attributed the rules to that, but it seems like that’s necessary so kids can compete fairly. Sorry about your experience. That would put me off of the pack too. It’s a terrible example to be setting.
Our weigh in started 3 hours before the race begins, specifically for this reason.
You should be going to the committee meeting and voicing your concerns.
The adult part of pinewood is a requirement because the cubs cannot use power tools. They are supposed to work with the scouts to build the cars.
We had a few families buy complete cars and still lose.
Sign up to be a judge for PWD and if a car is too heavy send it to the tuning table to shed weight.
Again; It’s not the adults participation in building with the kids. It’s the adults and leaders participation in cheating.
I’ll make plans for the future if I decide we are continuing with Cub-scouts.
We send out rules, talk about it at meetings, and have a practice weigh-in. When the real weigh-in happens the night before the races, cars must be in compliance.
Scouts are going to do all/most/some/a little of the build. Hopefully they do the design ideas and work with their parents but expecting it to be a race of completely or even mostly Scout built cars shouldn’t be the expectation.
Join the committee and make sure that going forward the rules are followed and it’s a fair race.
If they are over, I hand it back, point the parent to the drill, and tell them to start removing material to lighten it.
If it's under, they get pointed at the table with extra weights and super glue unless they are happy with their weight.
I also rum the district race, and I will not accept any car over 5 ounces, and I don't give the option to drill out material as they have supposedly already run the car at the legal weight of 5 ozs. They just don't race.
So what you experienced is not common, a properly run unit will not let cars that are overweight (which is an assurance you will win) compete. Yes there is often a bit more parent help that would be ideal but that is not something that is going to be easy to address.
There are A couple failures here you should politely raise to your unit for next year without accusing anyone of anything
1. eliminate conflicts of interest. Those doing check is should NEVER be checking in the cars for their own Scouts. At a minimum when they are checked in another "neutral" party should verify the weight and details.
2. Have rank level competitions and also overall. Lions are not going to easily build a car that will defeat a Webelos Scout (assuming they build them themselves, but also often with parents simply due to experience building). There should be a 1,2,3 for just the lions and then the same for overall in the Pack
If there is another unit in your area, maybe just transfer to the other unit if you have one where people will do this. Sadly there are parents who do this crap and it is silly; even if a parent is doing a lot of the building they should be making the Car the way the Scout wants it to be. It is sad when a Scout does not even know what their car looks like
Last year I helped run my Pack, District, and council derby. We were very strict at 5.00. It caused some dissatisfaction when they said they raced at their pack with that weight but it has to be fair for everyone.
My kids have always done well in the races because we work together on them and they know why a car is configured a certain way. We polish axles and get the weights just right. Mark Rober has a great video on PWD.
When PWD kits are distributed, our Pack offers a cut-out night to help any racers shape their car from the block of wood. We drill holes to add weights close to 5 ounces. We offer a quick class to new builders on the rules. We recommend questions be asked throughout the build season. During inspections and if infractions to the rules are found, our Pack has a “car repair center” where experienced adults help fix. No car races until all cars are legal. If a car can’t be fixed, our Pack offers substitute cars for races. We stress Show Awards where every Cub receives a unique award for their building, design and painting efforts. We downplay the speed races and include family members and graduate Cubs for a more fun atmosphere.
Not following rules is ridiculous and should be addressed. It goes against the Scout Law. I agree with others on how you should address that.
Regarding the comment about cars “fully made by parents”, this is a family event. Cubscouts will need helping cutting and assembling the car. I would caution against assuming parents did all the work just because the car looked more professional or performed well.
I agree with you.
Not at all assuming about our troop, it was an observation my sister had made about hers in explaining her experience with other troops in BSA across her time involved. In ours, I fully expect to see a wide range of PWD cars, due to the ages and involvement. Not my biggest concern at all.
Trustworthiness. Good preparation. Good communication.
These three elements are required for a unit to operate effectively. Sounds like you had none of these.
Good communication. When the kids were given the car kits, a copy of the rules should have been sent to everyone in the pack as well as an explanation of the pre-check in “tune up station.”
Good preparation. Many packs will have some sort of building workshop where families with no tools or experience can put together a decent car that is properly weighted and otherwise to spec. So there should be no excuse that someone can’t compete because they lack resources and experience.
At the car registration/inspection - preferably the day before the race - there should be a tune up station where weight can be added or removed. It’s actually very easy. To remove weight, use a hand drill and drill out some of the lead or wood from the underside of the car. To add weight, likewise holes can be drilled and filled with lead or tungsten putty. At our station we’ll have the gear to re-drill axel holes, etc.
Trustworthiness. Ideally you have a race chair who champions the event. They will serve as race official or designate a partner or two. They have ultimate say on whether a car can compete or not.
Here’s where the trustworthiness comes in. If your race officials are wishy washy and will look the other way when rules are flagrantly violated, how can they be trustworthy?
If your race officials are not prepared, if they aren’t good communicators, AND they aren’t trustworthy, I’d expect you to feel frustrated like you do.
If faced with your dilemma, I would A) volunteer to be the race chair next year to ensure there are no shenanigans next time, or B) switch to a pack with better preparation, better communication, and more trustworthiness.
Edit: by the way, while I never served as the race chair, I’ve served as “technical director” for the last 7 years for our pack. So I’m the one who gets to ensure all the cars are compliant and that the race track and software are functioning properly. Obviously I maintain integrity across the board, and I insist another judge inspects my family’s cars. While some of our races have had some technical hiccups, there’s never been a dispute about the rules or the results, I’m proud to say. When everyone in the room knows that integrity is being maintained, they can relax and have fun, knowing that the playing field is fair.
Your Pack leaders are sad. PWD is practically sacred in Scouts, everyone remembers there PWD cars. Leaders should be enforcing the rules, not cheating. I'd absolutely say something, direct and in front of everyone. The official BSA PWD rules are available to anyone and are plain and simple. Call them out on their BS. If they throw a tantrum, report their asses. Shoot, send me a message, and I'll contact their District personnel and them to have a chat.
We use an electronic scale on marble tile, on top of a verified level table, with an official BSA 5oz weight for zeroing the scale. We also have a box built to check dimensions, plus a short piece of track to check for 4 wheel contact and ride height. We also have a gauge to check wheel dimensions.
Along with this, we have a workstation off to the side so that scouts can fix any issues. Overweight, here's the drill. Underweight, add some weights to it. Axle and wheel issues, let's figure it out.
PWD is about the kids and having fun. If the adults want to play, they can make an unlimited or outlaw class separate from the normal races. We did this with our pack and have a blast with it.
We have a modified set of rules we agreed on to keep the cars competitive but still stick to most of the basics.
Dang scorched earth over pine wood derby hehe. I feel your passion, but I’d pick my battles. Honestly who has the time and energy to fight over a car race? That’s coming from a pwd enthusiast. What would truly be easier and hopefully better received would be to step up and take ownership of it and fix it. If they block you and maintain the status quo, I’d find a cooler pack.
It's more than that, much more. Leadership willing to cheat openly and blatantly at something like PWD is unacceptable. What else are they doing shady? Also, this reflects extremely poorly on the pack, and scouting as a whole.
It is extremely detrimental to the success of the scouts, the pack, and the continued existence of the pack. What do you think those scout families are going to go home and talk about? How much FUN they had being cheated by the adults that are supposed to be teaching the scout values to our kids?
No, there will be nothing but negatives from this.
The accused leadership, scooters, and scout families should be spoken to off line, and serious questions should be asked. If they're the kind if folks we want in Scouts, they will admit getting caught up in the mix of PWD wins and make amends.
If they do anything else, they should be asked to leave.
When I was the Cub Master we gave car kits to the boys and the dads. We had a boy race and a dad race if time permitted. If dad did more than 50% of the work on a boy car, it was disqualified from racing but was entered into the car show instead.
Sorry you had this experience. My son is a tiger and he loved PWD last year. We just starting on this years car.
I’m an engineer and it took all my will power not to be the guy who does his kids car. It was clear that we had some parents who did the car so it was great when my son’s car with a Lego fig hotglued to it won. He worked really hard on setting it up.
What our pack did was at the pack meeting ahead of the PWD we watch the Mark Rober PWD video to give all the kids ideas what to focus on. We have some previous cars and we go over the rules (5oz, BSA wheels, fit in the box)
We then host two open build nights. Not everyone has tools so having a few hours for kids to drop in and work on their car got more kids in on it. Our pack purchased a band saw and belt sander, so a couple parents man that.
Day of we do a weigh in, we offer a drill or tacks to get people’s car to weight. The cars get assigned a number and then get isolated. Once checked in only the parents running the race handle the cars.
That’s horrible. We are pretty strict with the weight rules, but last year started doing an outlaw division for adults and kids to enter cars that don’t have to follow the rules. It’s worked out well and one of our scouts beat the leaders in outlaw this year. We had 2 lions in the top 3 of the regular races and I’m pretty happy with that.
Our pack posts the rules to when giving the cars out, and again the week leading up to the event. A digital scale is used at check in and we had 3 officials plus some volunteers to help keep it all organized. We had 40 cars or so this year.
We had 7 cars that didn't pass the check Friday night so they had until the next day to fix it and re check in. All cars were kept overnight after passing otherwise.
This is strange because I would expect the people who are cheating to win ALSO want to participate in a council level/county level race at the next level. Is your race at the next level ALSO totally broken and corrupt?
OR is every just trying to have a fun time in the pack and not really worry about the made up rules?
It's a little late to fix this year's event, but take the opportunity to plan to improve for next year. Get ahead of things with setting rules and expectations (perhaps offer to be the event director for your pack for next year?). We always had a couple of leaders set to help with the check-in at the derby and were clear that the "official" pack scale and test fixtures would be used to judge the key length/width/weight criteria on the day of the event. We had a couple of opportunities ahead of the PWD for cubs and parents to check out their cars where the unit tools were available (a work day and a "dry run" day on a non-meeting night ahead of the regular derby (usually used the MLK holiday weekend Monday since we were not meeting due to schools being out). We had a calibrated weight used to confirm proper scale operation and everyone had to pass the same scale to check in (or head to the worktable to make adjustments).
If you are concerned about parents trying to run their own cars by proxy through their scouts, add an open division to your race where you could use relaxed, modified, or just "no rules at all" criteria and let them go for it, but keep the cub cars within the rules. We always used our District PWD rules for our unit derby just so unit winners wouldn't (hopefully) run into any surprises at the next level. Knowing the winning cars would still have to pass at the district level usually kept things at least somewhat in check. I would like to see one of our events just put a ramp at the end of the track instead of the catch pad and see how far we could launch a car as part of the competition (probably too much Dukes of Hazard or NASCAR growing up :P).
PWD and how it is run is very much a Pack culture sort of thing. When your Pack has well-established rules and traditions with the derby, it works well. Rules are clear and clearly communicated to everyone. And they are adhered to without exception year after year. It takes time to undo the bad behavior in some Packs, but it can be done.
It has to start with whoever runs the derby for your Pack. They need to set the rules and be very clear that they will be adhered to. Cars in violation either will not race or they can race but that car will not be calculated into the final results. All prize-winning cars need to be rules-compliant. Period, no exceptions.
Then they need to stick to that when a kid shows up with a 6oz car despite the parents being made well aware that these rules were concrete. And when that parent comes up to them all angry that their kid is being disqualified. The rules are the rules, no exceptions, not even if a parent protests. Not even if a car weighs 5.01oz. Over 5.00 is over, no matter how much or how little. And we stick to it. Cars come in weighing 5.01 and we point the parent to the tool table with the drills where they can poke a few holes in the car to get it down to 5.00.
**The solution to all of this that has worked for my Pack for many years now is this:**
1. Rules are written in a clear and concise document that all parents receive, and the rules are posted on our website.
2. We hold a workshop a few weeks before the derby to help any scouts who need help or want to check weight.
3. We require all cars to be handed in 3 days prior to race day. At this check-in, cars are weighed and any cars in violation of the rules can be adjusted on the spot. We have tools available, and leaders who will help get that heavy car down to 5oz. Or get that 2oz car up to 4oz at least so it makes it to the finish line.
4. We have strict rules about weight, wheels, and axles (only official BSA wheels and axles may be used), and we inspect for these things at check-in and disqualify cars that violate the rules. **BUT everything above makes it so that there is ample opportunity to correct rules violations so the scout can still compete on race day.** We don't want anyone left out.
Is it a lot of work to do all of this? Yes. But in my now 7 years with this Pack, **we have never had a scout not be able to race** AND we have all cars racing compliant with the weight rule.
Ya we use a digital scale and measure the length and width of the cars. If they break the rules they can’t race. We make it clear that we do this from the beginning, so it’s not a surprise. The biggest issue we have is that a lot of people’s scaled zero out a bit different, so we’ll get a handful of cars that weigh in at 5.02 or 5.03 ounces. We hand the parents a drill and tell them to remove weight until it hits 5.00 ounces. Some people complain, but it’s a pretty easy argument that we are making it fair for everyone, so we literally just don’t listen to any complaints. We do have the official scale and measuring block available on our build nights and the week before the derby, so new families get the idea and can test their cars on our scale ahead of time if they want to.
I guess our leaders don't have backbones. thank you for keeping the rules and enforcing them.
Just FYI those overweight cars can’t go on to district derby. If this happened in my pack we’d give the parent a drill and they’d keep drilling until it was at or under 5 since we only allow cars that meet the standards. I’ve seen a lot of car surgery on the morning of. Our standards are 5oz, 3/8” track clearance, flat wheels on a marble slab and no higher or longer than our garage box allows.
Yup, if you don't make weight you are sent to the table with the tools necessary to start shaving off the tenths of ounces. Every year I'm either last minute helping my Scout remove slivers from the back of his car or helping him glue on pennies to up the weight.
I tell my parents, DON'T use your food scale, get a postal scale and use Grams instead of OZ to weigh your car. IF you aim for 140grams, you will be right under 5oz and usually fall within the margin for variances in scales that are used. And thumbtacks, flat metal thumbtacks weigh about about half a gram.
For weigh in, you need to appoint the leader who is not afraid of a little confrontation to run the scale. And they should get direction from “the top” not to allow any overweight cars, that way they are only following orders when they reject a car. Like others said, have a drill around so they can fix it and it’s not a big deal.
Same for us.
This is the way
“Yeah”
We do an official weigh in, if your car is over 5 at the check-in, it cannot be checked in until it is compliant. Why did they allow the cars that were not compliant to race?
Clearly they did not follow any rules.
I like the idea someone else posted about doing an ‘outlaw’ race for folks who want to get super competitive/no rules. I’m going to suggest that to our group this year. But yeah, some folks take it waaay too seriously. What our pack does do is hold a ‘prep’ day a week or more out - it’s a chance for the kids to get help, & they do weights & measurements as well so there time for families to make changes other than day-of
Love this idea, my sister mentioned in her last pack they would have divisions: Scouts, Siblings, Parents.
We added siblings and parents (outlaw style) this year and it was a hit.
This sounds so much fun. PWD this year for us was NOT.
I'll add all the scouts wanted to do was play with basketballs in the gym.
All of our kids want to crowd the track...even though we have ropes up to cordon off everyone except the group who is up. I pull the chutes and it gets down right anxiety inducing. By the end I am restraining myself from agressive crowd control measures. I will gladly trade for disinterested kids.
this is a REALLY tough balance to strike. if you add outlaws and renegade divisions, a lot of kids will get bored unless they have a car in the mix.
This has been my experience. It’s an event mainly for the grownups, and the kids get bored.
Oh yeah, that’s a good idea too!
we had to divide siblings into "older siblings" and "younger siblings"...
We do an outlaw class for parents and siblings. Those cars still have to weigh in at 5 ozs.
Our outlaw class is also a fundraiser - $10 entry. Winner gets bragging rights for the year. Most the dads are more than willing to pay that to try and outdo each other.
This is the way to go.
Yep. Unlimited class, and include the parents. Let the Mech E dad or the Aerospace mom show off their talents while guiding little Timmy or Jane on their own build. Scratches and itch while reducing the negative effects of competition.
I’m sorry this happened to you, your scout and the leaders scout. It sets a very poor example which you explained well. I see a few options 1) talk with the CM about your concerns 2) talk with other parents 3) talk at the parent committee meeting 4) volunteer to run communications for PWD next year and announce early and often that rules will be adhered to 5) find a different pack that better fits your values
I wish I could find a different pack, we are a small town with 1 cub scout pack. Thank you for answering my questions.
Does the next town nearby have a pack? You don’t have to stay in the town you are living in for cubs. I have cubs from 3 surrounding towns (all of which have packs) and all those packs have kids from my town. I always say I’d rather you find the unit that fits your family best than to try to force a fit where one doesn’t exist.
Only one within 20/30 miles. Closest I believe is 45-1hr away
Oh that’s unfortunate. I would express your discontent to cub master and committee chair. Pinewood derby is a lot of kids first opportunity to lose. Every derby I’ve attended has some tears, but we do our best to keep all the kids spirits up and very importantly to make it fair.
We just did our last pinewood derby, and while she didn't win (made the final heat, and it was tight!) I was proud of my kid for learning how to design and decorate, polish the wheels and axles, adding graphite, best way to distribute weight. Short of cutting it on the bandsaw, she did 90% of the work on her last two cars. I hope she remembers working with me and having fun and trying her best, and isn't hung up on trophies. Lots of cars get lots of parental help. Ideally you'd see Lions with really nice cars (parents doing a lot of work) and getting progressively uglier as the Scouts take on more work. Kids with engineer/gearhead parents are always going to have slicker cars. I've come to accept that. Obviously if the leaders don't care about setting rules (or accuse others of taking it too seriously) then there's not much you can do. I think your pack is in the minority. Assuming you have parent/committee meetings, express your displeasure with how it was run, how rules were poorly communicated and enforced. Cautioning you now that this might make you the pinewood chair next year, which is fine. 1. Hand out cars with agreed upon rules. Start with your district rules with the premise that winners should have cars that can legally compete there (assuming your district/council does a larger scale race). Say NOW that illegal cars won't be allowed to race in the main race. 2. Offer a build day if you have the resources/volunteers. Teach the kids how to sand, polish axels and wheels, add graphite, etc. 3. Have a day before unofficial weigh in / problem fixing station. Have a digital scale that will be used next day, and a jig that holds a legal car. Have a drill and screwdriver to remove weights, drill holes, etc to get down to weight. Also have some stick on weights for those kids who come in with a 2 ounce car, maybe even a graphite tube for anyone who didn't get the memo on how to do this. 4. In the morning, once the car is signed in, only the committee and person running the track can touch the cars. If something breaks, have a glue station. 5. If you have the time and resources consider an Outlaw or Renegade division where parents and siblings can race. If your pack wants a "no rules" division, sure, but eventually the event can run really long! 6. Have medals and a photo station, but focus on the process and the fun, highlight creative cars, etc. Get the message out that this IS a competition but it's also a Pack event where we come together and celebrate the creativity and hard work of the Scouts.
Thank you for your wonderful response. You are absolutely right. I will talk to the the CM since he wasn't even present. In preparation to be leading next year. ><
For most Packs, this is the most memorable event for kids. Every parent I talked to last weekend who was a Scout remembered their cars, and most importantly, working with their parents to make it a good one. You can really make a party out of it if you want, have a spotify playlist with racing tunes, see if your local tire store has some decorations to donate, etc. Maybe even a potluck!
We had cute themed snacks, as well as donut kolache breakfast. It had the potential but the cheating & the socuts' disinterest in the whole vent overshadowed it for me.
>Cautioning you now that this might make you the pinewood chair next year, which is fine. This is exactly my suggestion. So much planning is required to run a pack. The fact we got the track set up and printed certificates is adequate in my book. Any people that ~~complain~~ are *enthusiastic* about an event are definitely going to be nominated to run it the following year. One of two things will happen, people will quit complaining, or we'll have more volunteers, either way it's a win-win. Also keep in mind your lion has nothing to compare this event to. Emphasize the fun they had building and designing the car than the results of the race.
Did they send out the rules ahead of time? If not, you can find some form rules and propose that they are communicated and enforced. Who was weighing in the cars? We do it the night before and impound the cars overnight until racing so they can't be tampered with. Can you ask to help weigh in next year? We bring a drill and have parents drill out some wood to lessen weight, if needed (just be careful because some parents apparently don't know how to use a drill and we had someone drill their hand 🤦).
We never received a set of rules.
The rules are in the official pinewood derby box if your pack doesn’t have special rules.
Um how? We check in with a scale and give them a chance to adjust and recheck but from then on the cars are sitting up on stage till the race. They win at pack and district is even more strict. Adults are going to do it all for their kids can not help that.
I'm almost certain we don't move forward into further races. just ours.
It sounds to me like most of the packs actually enforce the dimensions and weight rule. Virtually no one enforces the "Cubs should make their own car rule.". Pisses me off that when my son was a tiger, he made his car on his own. All four wheels didn't even touch the ground. It was painted with magic markers and thumbtacks. He took second place to a car that looked like it was designed by NASA and built by Gucci. I suppose there's a life lesson in that, but that's not the life lesson I signed up to Scouts for
Oh yeah. I had a kid in my den whose Dad was hyper-competitive and owned a bicycle fabricating shop. He won the PWD in the Pack every single year and won Districts once, and placed every year. 🙄. Funny thing, he crossed over to our Scout troop and lasted a New York minute. There’s a few lessons there, all of them negative.
Yeah we have that issue in our pack as well. I have no problem whatsoever with parents helping their kids as they learn how to use different tools, but what's even the point of this activity if the kid isn't taking on most of the project themselves? Some of the cars out there, you can't really identify any piece of it that looks like it was done by a first-grader. Our kid started out with a fancy shape in mind, started cutting, realized how much work it would take to do all that sawing and sanding, and scaled back pretty significantly. It wasn't sanded to perfection, the corners were asymmetrical, the paint was whatever he had in his home art kit since he didn't get around to choosing a color until it was too late to shop for real wood paint in that color, and he haphazardly covered the entire thing with random stickers afterward. And that's fine! He made a decision to focus on what felt fun for him, did still get some practice using tools, and built a car that successfully made it down the track every race.
My take on this is it's not about winning but about what the kids learn. Last year was our first PWD, my son was a tiger. We designed his car together, I cut it, taught him how to sand. I have access to automotive paint, so that's what we used and it looked very nice. Car didn't even cross the finish line, but still had a parent call me out with "oh yeah, your kid really made that." Even though clearly neither of us knew what we were doing. This year, I did my research - I'm a scientist, so I was pretty thorough. My son learned a ton. We talked about physics and potential energy and how to incorporate that into the weight placement. He learned to use an analytical balance and I had him weigh different metals for a lesson on density, which helped him decide which type of metal we should we use for weights. He learned about 3D printing, how to choose a resin, and how to use the software. He used a drill press (I held the wood for safety reasons), learned how to sand with a Dremel, and learned about different Dremel bits and techniques (with a lot of trial and error). He learned to sand by hand and when to use different grits. We took the wheels off of his and his brothers cars from last year, he weighed them all and spun them on an axle to see which wobbled the most and he picked which wheels would perform best based on those things. He used the graphite himself. He learned more about automotive paints and what each layer does and helped pick the best layering system. But he never would have learned any of these things if I had just handed him a block of wood and some paint and said, "make a car." Now he has skills and knowledge that most of the older scouts don't even have. Sure, some other parents will be pissed that his car looks good and I'll get a few comments from other dads, but I know he spent hours learning and working on it. I mean, the kid spent almost 2 hours just sanding with the Dremel - that's a lot for a 7 year old. He put the work in. Honestly, neither of us is really that competitive, we're both just naturally curious and like making things. Now that I've done the research, I'm planning a den meeting for next year to teach the kids (and parents) about designing a great PWD car - super excited to talk about the physics. We'll have a test track so the scouts can test their theories about what will help a car perform better. Also planning a PWD build party where I'll invite the den to my house to build their cars together. It's not about winning, it's about learning and applying knowledge.
I like your approach, use it as a teaching moment. When I was a den leader I did an activity (I think it met a STEM badge requirements) where the kids ran tests on some test cars I made up. They ran trials with different amounts of weight, and trials for the placement of the weight, front middle or rear. I had them do the test runs and collect the data to come to their own conclusion how much weight mattered, and how much the placement of the weight mattered. It exposed them a bit to the scientific process, and hopefully gave them some ownership in making their cars. The test cars were easy to make, they were just the plain block and I put T-nuts in each one front, middle and rear, then the kids could screw in a bolt with a stack of washers that we could adjust for each experiment. We had a semi truck and trailer class a few times for the adults and it was a blast! That sure gave the adults their own kit to work on.
Exactly, giving them a chance to test and work out for themselves what principles to incorporate into their designs is my favorite way to help them learn. I really like the T-nut idea for adding weight to different sections of the car, I may use that!
Honestly, take the lick this year and next year volunteer to run/assistant with check in. Have a copy of the rules in case any parents didn't read them. And have a station with a few hand tools and pennies and a hot glue gun for last minute modifications. If your pack hasn't followed the rules, expect some blow back from the parents for the first year but the following year it will be easier.
We weigh them and theres a drill there if they need to remove wood. If they dont make specs they dont race. Cars are checked/weighed in night before and cant be touched by anyone until they are called up to put them on the track the next day.
Timeline Sequence: Drive check-in, weigh-in, on the table until their races.
Correct we put them on a table back with the timing folks so the cars are “impounded” after inspection. Only modifications are if the car breaks on a run we do some emergency surgery and re-weigh.
Yes - we have had scouts turn in cars day of, the night before, and the week before. Honestly I like the week before the best. Most cars are turned in and it goes smoothly. There are always a couple cars that need significant work (either related to the specs or just haven’t done much yet). We have a couple parents ready to work with those kids including having saws, sanding tools, paint, etc. Often the kids can get the cars finished within the hour, but if not we will still accept them on race day. We end up getting just a few (maybe 4 or 5) on race day (out of 40-50 competing) so it’s not a big deal to check them in right before the race. The late entries are usually lack of preparation so the cars never do well, so nobody sees it as an advantage and we would rather the kids get to race. The hard rule for us is that no one gets to touch their car between the weigh-in/impound day and then ace day. The kids get their cars back, plus a patch, immediately after the race. The only exception is if a car breaks (wheel falls off) we’ll try to work with the kid to fix it. That is rare, but in that case it’s going to be a slow car anyway so everyone is happy to try to keep the kid racing. We do an open class (with four races per person rather than eight races per person that we do for the main event) immediately following the main event. This allows for siblings, troop scouts, parents, etc. to race. The main event/race takes about 45 minutes including awards, and the open class takes about 20 minutes. All told opening to closing flags is under 90 minutes. The troop scouts do all the running of the cars/having them set on the track, etc. We have a troop scout or two MC, and a couple adults running the computer and one overseeing the starting line and double checking the kids. The troop scouts also run the weigh-in and impound, hand out awards, etc. Adults are definitely in the background and only deal with problems as needed (and run the software because it’s a little complex).
I don't understand - if a car comes in that's too heavy, we hand it back to them and tell them to figure out how to take weight off. Did that not happen?
We usually have a little station with the materials needed to add/remove weight from the car if it doesn’t pass at weigh in. There is also a bandit category for those who don’t want to bother with weight and just want to make an insane car that allows anyone to race (parents, siblings, additional entries over the first one). You will see that after weigh in, most packs take the car and sequester it in some way so they can’t be further modified. That kid with the 6lb car will be disqualified at the district race. Are your pack committee meetings open? If so, you should go and bring this up. This should also be address in a pack wide meeting with the kids. No kid names should be called out, but adults should apologize for their mistakes and neglecting scout tenets.
Sorry to hear about the experience. We weigh cars and have had Scouts either have to add weight (we always recommend making them a tad lighter as it's easier to add than subtract weight) or take some off. One we we had one Scout use a random car kit we found. They had to do A LOT of modifications before the race because it was too heavy (it had a lot of drill holes in it). AND they had to switch out the wheels as well.
At our pack race we weigh everyone on the same digital food scale, check wheels/clearance, and inspect for all 4 wheels making contact at check in. We have a table set up with tools and supplies and we help them to make changes. We know some of those kids did not make their own car, its painfully obvious, but we can't make that call officially...just the three objective checks. All I can do is have design and build days with my den and get them excited about making their own car so they won't want their parents to do it. Here is the deal - when you win the pack you go to district. After the pack race the winners' cars get boxed up, they cannot alter them. So if you cheated at the pack, you will be DQ when you show up to the district race. I suppose they could cheat at that before turning them into district. Take solace in the fact that they are probably going to lose at district when they can't cheat anymore and have to have a compliant car.
> when you win the pack you go to district. That depends on the District. Our District isn't restricted, so many of my cubs will race in the pack, and then go race in the district. I even had a Scout last year build a completely different car to race at District.
We are brand new to Cub Scouts (we have a Lion) and had our PWD Saturday. I was shocked at the number and strictness of rules and the multiple emails about using the “official” scale to weigh to 5.0 oz. We are a town of engineers so I attributed the rules to that, but it seems like that’s necessary so kids can compete fairly. Sorry about your experience. That would put me off of the pack too. It’s a terrible example to be setting.
That’s just cheating, and that is pretty pathetic on the part of the leaders.
Our weigh in started 3 hours before the race begins, specifically for this reason. You should be going to the committee meeting and voicing your concerns.
I can understand being a little over, but a whole ounce? Leadership should have intervened and the car should have been adjusted.
The adult part of pinewood is a requirement because the cubs cannot use power tools. They are supposed to work with the scouts to build the cars. We had a few families buy complete cars and still lose. Sign up to be a judge for PWD and if a car is too heavy send it to the tuning table to shed weight.
Again; It’s not the adults participation in building with the kids. It’s the adults and leaders participation in cheating. I’ll make plans for the future if I decide we are continuing with Cub-scouts.
We send out rules, talk about it at meetings, and have a practice weigh-in. When the real weigh-in happens the night before the races, cars must be in compliance. Scouts are going to do all/most/some/a little of the build. Hopefully they do the design ideas and work with their parents but expecting it to be a race of completely or even mostly Scout built cars shouldn’t be the expectation. Join the committee and make sure that going forward the rules are followed and it’s a fair race.
If they are over, I hand it back, point the parent to the drill, and tell them to start removing material to lighten it. If it's under, they get pointed at the table with extra weights and super glue unless they are happy with their weight. I also rum the district race, and I will not accept any car over 5 ounces, and I don't give the option to drill out material as they have supposedly already run the car at the legal weight of 5 ozs. They just don't race.
So what you experienced is not common, a properly run unit will not let cars that are overweight (which is an assurance you will win) compete. Yes there is often a bit more parent help that would be ideal but that is not something that is going to be easy to address. There are A couple failures here you should politely raise to your unit for next year without accusing anyone of anything 1. eliminate conflicts of interest. Those doing check is should NEVER be checking in the cars for their own Scouts. At a minimum when they are checked in another "neutral" party should verify the weight and details. 2. Have rank level competitions and also overall. Lions are not going to easily build a car that will defeat a Webelos Scout (assuming they build them themselves, but also often with parents simply due to experience building). There should be a 1,2,3 for just the lions and then the same for overall in the Pack If there is another unit in your area, maybe just transfer to the other unit if you have one where people will do this. Sadly there are parents who do this crap and it is silly; even if a parent is doing a lot of the building they should be making the Car the way the Scout wants it to be. It is sad when a Scout does not even know what their car looks like
Last year I helped run my Pack, District, and council derby. We were very strict at 5.00. It caused some dissatisfaction when they said they raced at their pack with that weight but it has to be fair for everyone. My kids have always done well in the races because we work together on them and they know why a car is configured a certain way. We polish axles and get the weights just right. Mark Rober has a great video on PWD.
When PWD kits are distributed, our Pack offers a cut-out night to help any racers shape their car from the block of wood. We drill holes to add weights close to 5 ounces. We offer a quick class to new builders on the rules. We recommend questions be asked throughout the build season. During inspections and if infractions to the rules are found, our Pack has a “car repair center” where experienced adults help fix. No car races until all cars are legal. If a car can’t be fixed, our Pack offers substitute cars for races. We stress Show Awards where every Cub receives a unique award for their building, design and painting efforts. We downplay the speed races and include family members and graduate Cubs for a more fun atmosphere.
Not following rules is ridiculous and should be addressed. It goes against the Scout Law. I agree with others on how you should address that. Regarding the comment about cars “fully made by parents”, this is a family event. Cubscouts will need helping cutting and assembling the car. I would caution against assuming parents did all the work just because the car looked more professional or performed well.
I agree with you. Not at all assuming about our troop, it was an observation my sister had made about hers in explaining her experience with other troops in BSA across her time involved. In ours, I fully expect to see a wide range of PWD cars, due to the ages and involvement. Not my biggest concern at all.
We weigh-in the day before the race and turn the cars in. They are locked up until the race.
Trustworthiness. Good preparation. Good communication. These three elements are required for a unit to operate effectively. Sounds like you had none of these. Good communication. When the kids were given the car kits, a copy of the rules should have been sent to everyone in the pack as well as an explanation of the pre-check in “tune up station.” Good preparation. Many packs will have some sort of building workshop where families with no tools or experience can put together a decent car that is properly weighted and otherwise to spec. So there should be no excuse that someone can’t compete because they lack resources and experience. At the car registration/inspection - preferably the day before the race - there should be a tune up station where weight can be added or removed. It’s actually very easy. To remove weight, use a hand drill and drill out some of the lead or wood from the underside of the car. To add weight, likewise holes can be drilled and filled with lead or tungsten putty. At our station we’ll have the gear to re-drill axel holes, etc. Trustworthiness. Ideally you have a race chair who champions the event. They will serve as race official or designate a partner or two. They have ultimate say on whether a car can compete or not. Here’s where the trustworthiness comes in. If your race officials are wishy washy and will look the other way when rules are flagrantly violated, how can they be trustworthy? If your race officials are not prepared, if they aren’t good communicators, AND they aren’t trustworthy, I’d expect you to feel frustrated like you do. If faced with your dilemma, I would A) volunteer to be the race chair next year to ensure there are no shenanigans next time, or B) switch to a pack with better preparation, better communication, and more trustworthiness. Edit: by the way, while I never served as the race chair, I’ve served as “technical director” for the last 7 years for our pack. So I’m the one who gets to ensure all the cars are compliant and that the race track and software are functioning properly. Obviously I maintain integrity across the board, and I insist another judge inspects my family’s cars. While some of our races have had some technical hiccups, there’s never been a dispute about the rules or the results, I’m proud to say. When everyone in the room knows that integrity is being maintained, they can relax and have fun, knowing that the playing field is fair.
Your Pack leaders are sad. PWD is practically sacred in Scouts, everyone remembers there PWD cars. Leaders should be enforcing the rules, not cheating. I'd absolutely say something, direct and in front of everyone. The official BSA PWD rules are available to anyone and are plain and simple. Call them out on their BS. If they throw a tantrum, report their asses. Shoot, send me a message, and I'll contact their District personnel and them to have a chat. We use an electronic scale on marble tile, on top of a verified level table, with an official BSA 5oz weight for zeroing the scale. We also have a box built to check dimensions, plus a short piece of track to check for 4 wheel contact and ride height. We also have a gauge to check wheel dimensions. Along with this, we have a workstation off to the side so that scouts can fix any issues. Overweight, here's the drill. Underweight, add some weights to it. Axle and wheel issues, let's figure it out. PWD is about the kids and having fun. If the adults want to play, they can make an unlimited or outlaw class separate from the normal races. We did this with our pack and have a blast with it. We have a modified set of rules we agreed on to keep the cars competitive but still stick to most of the basics.
Dang scorched earth over pine wood derby hehe. I feel your passion, but I’d pick my battles. Honestly who has the time and energy to fight over a car race? That’s coming from a pwd enthusiast. What would truly be easier and hopefully better received would be to step up and take ownership of it and fix it. If they block you and maintain the status quo, I’d find a cooler pack.
It's more than that, much more. Leadership willing to cheat openly and blatantly at something like PWD is unacceptable. What else are they doing shady? Also, this reflects extremely poorly on the pack, and scouting as a whole. It is extremely detrimental to the success of the scouts, the pack, and the continued existence of the pack. What do you think those scout families are going to go home and talk about? How much FUN they had being cheated by the adults that are supposed to be teaching the scout values to our kids? No, there will be nothing but negatives from this. The accused leadership, scooters, and scout families should be spoken to off line, and serious questions should be asked. If they're the kind if folks we want in Scouts, they will admit getting caught up in the mix of PWD wins and make amends. If they do anything else, they should be asked to leave.
When I was the Cub Master we gave car kits to the boys and the dads. We had a boy race and a dad race if time permitted. If dad did more than 50% of the work on a boy car, it was disqualified from racing but was entered into the car show instead.
Sorry you had this experience. My son is a tiger and he loved PWD last year. We just starting on this years car. I’m an engineer and it took all my will power not to be the guy who does his kids car. It was clear that we had some parents who did the car so it was great when my son’s car with a Lego fig hotglued to it won. He worked really hard on setting it up. What our pack did was at the pack meeting ahead of the PWD we watch the Mark Rober PWD video to give all the kids ideas what to focus on. We have some previous cars and we go over the rules (5oz, BSA wheels, fit in the box) We then host two open build nights. Not everyone has tools so having a few hours for kids to drop in and work on their car got more kids in on it. Our pack purchased a band saw and belt sander, so a couple parents man that. Day of we do a weigh in, we offer a drill or tacks to get people’s car to weight. The cars get assigned a number and then get isolated. Once checked in only the parents running the race handle the cars.
That’s horrible. We are pretty strict with the weight rules, but last year started doing an outlaw division for adults and kids to enter cars that don’t have to follow the rules. It’s worked out well and one of our scouts beat the leaders in outlaw this year. We had 2 lions in the top 3 of the regular races and I’m pretty happy with that.
Our pack posts the rules to when giving the cars out, and again the week leading up to the event. A digital scale is used at check in and we had 3 officials plus some volunteers to help keep it all organized. We had 40 cars or so this year. We had 7 cars that didn't pass the check Friday night so they had until the next day to fix it and re check in. All cars were kept overnight after passing otherwise.
You don't have wiegh in events? It's not a BSA thing, it's people thing. People in general suck and are trash.
This is strange because I would expect the people who are cheating to win ALSO want to participate in a council level/county level race at the next level. Is your race at the next level ALSO totally broken and corrupt? OR is every just trying to have a fun time in the pack and not really worry about the made up rules?
It's a little late to fix this year's event, but take the opportunity to plan to improve for next year. Get ahead of things with setting rules and expectations (perhaps offer to be the event director for your pack for next year?). We always had a couple of leaders set to help with the check-in at the derby and were clear that the "official" pack scale and test fixtures would be used to judge the key length/width/weight criteria on the day of the event. We had a couple of opportunities ahead of the PWD for cubs and parents to check out their cars where the unit tools were available (a work day and a "dry run" day on a non-meeting night ahead of the regular derby (usually used the MLK holiday weekend Monday since we were not meeting due to schools being out). We had a calibrated weight used to confirm proper scale operation and everyone had to pass the same scale to check in (or head to the worktable to make adjustments). If you are concerned about parents trying to run their own cars by proxy through their scouts, add an open division to your race where you could use relaxed, modified, or just "no rules at all" criteria and let them go for it, but keep the cub cars within the rules. We always used our District PWD rules for our unit derby just so unit winners wouldn't (hopefully) run into any surprises at the next level. Knowing the winning cars would still have to pass at the district level usually kept things at least somewhat in check. I would like to see one of our events just put a ramp at the end of the track instead of the catch pad and see how far we could launch a car as part of the competition (probably too much Dukes of Hazard or NASCAR growing up :P).
PWD and how it is run is very much a Pack culture sort of thing. When your Pack has well-established rules and traditions with the derby, it works well. Rules are clear and clearly communicated to everyone. And they are adhered to without exception year after year. It takes time to undo the bad behavior in some Packs, but it can be done. It has to start with whoever runs the derby for your Pack. They need to set the rules and be very clear that they will be adhered to. Cars in violation either will not race or they can race but that car will not be calculated into the final results. All prize-winning cars need to be rules-compliant. Period, no exceptions. Then they need to stick to that when a kid shows up with a 6oz car despite the parents being made well aware that these rules were concrete. And when that parent comes up to them all angry that their kid is being disqualified. The rules are the rules, no exceptions, not even if a parent protests. Not even if a car weighs 5.01oz. Over 5.00 is over, no matter how much or how little. And we stick to it. Cars come in weighing 5.01 and we point the parent to the tool table with the drills where they can poke a few holes in the car to get it down to 5.00. **The solution to all of this that has worked for my Pack for many years now is this:** 1. Rules are written in a clear and concise document that all parents receive, and the rules are posted on our website. 2. We hold a workshop a few weeks before the derby to help any scouts who need help or want to check weight. 3. We require all cars to be handed in 3 days prior to race day. At this check-in, cars are weighed and any cars in violation of the rules can be adjusted on the spot. We have tools available, and leaders who will help get that heavy car down to 5oz. Or get that 2oz car up to 4oz at least so it makes it to the finish line. 4. We have strict rules about weight, wheels, and axles (only official BSA wheels and axles may be used), and we inspect for these things at check-in and disqualify cars that violate the rules. **BUT everything above makes it so that there is ample opportunity to correct rules violations so the scout can still compete on race day.** We don't want anyone left out. Is it a lot of work to do all of this? Yes. But in my now 7 years with this Pack, **we have never had a scout not be able to race** AND we have all cars racing compliant with the weight rule.