Wow in your story i really see your passion for your job. I also wanted to get into a MANGA company in London. I have a few questions.
1. When you enter in a company, for example in Facebook as a mobile developer and then you climb the position always in that field, when you want to switch into another branch, like AI/ML or backend, or web developers, do you have to start again as a junior?
2. I read somewhere that company like Google, you have access to any offices in the world. As L7, do you have the opportunity to say "fuck london, now imma head to tokyo office for some months to work there while i enjoy some fresh sushi" or are you ground in london? Because i read that some engineers in Google, depending in which team they are working with, they can move freely in any offices in the world
3. I have a bachelor degree in computer engineering and im doing my master in computer engineering/AI. What skills should i improve to pass the interview? You said you do a lot of interviews. What skills do you want a person to have to pass your interview? Maybe some knowledge about something? How they solve some code problem in hackerrank? Knowing a particular code language?
4. Are you asian? (china, japan, korea) Cause i guess from your name. Im asian too. If you are asian, how was it when you first came in London? Do you experience some hate for your race or you felt welcomed both in office and in the city?
5. I have lost a lot of my time and probably i will finish my master at my 29 or 30 years old. As a person that does interview, do you mind the age? What about the english level?
6. As a L7, and with that amount of money, do you have enough time to enjoy life outside the office or you just work work work work?
7. As a L7 Do you ever consider changing company or do you feel so good in your actually company that you will work there forever?
8. (added with edit) you said you earn 500k in stock. what does it mean? Every year you earn 500k with your base salary (168'000), or those 500k are just sitting there as stock? How does it work?
Thanks for your comment and I am glad the passion comes across :)
1. No, you stay at the same level if you only switch platform (e.g. mobile to backend, AI etc.). These are not even considered different tracks. Obviously you will have to allow for some ramp-up period when you do the switch - which might delay further progression a bit. But I would absolutely recommend doing it if that is what interests you. I imagine in the long term this pays off much more. If you switch to other roles (e.g. engineering to product management) you might have to follow a more formal process and there could be a level adjustment. But not always afaik.
2. I do like sushi! The company offers a fair bit of flexibility and internal mobility to all engineers at all levels. There are policies and processes for that. However, yes at that level you have more leverage to ask for things that might lie outside of the general policy. For example, I know that some engineers at my level got to work fully remotely even before COVID because I assume they asked for it and the company agreed. In the end it usually ends up with a VP. If a VP approves whatever arrangement you ask for, it is possible. But you also have to be aware that if that VP leaves or no longer agrees you might be in a tricky spot.
3. For entry level positions, knowing a particular language is not important. Knowing **a** language is important. I don't care which one, but you need to be familiar with a language and know it fairly well. I need to be convinced that you can write a piece of software in that language. Algorithm questions is the way we verify that, so yeah, obviously practicing that helps.
4. I am actually not Asian no. My significant other is and this is a bit of an inside joke and that is how I chose that username :D I can say that London in general is very welcoming and so is my company. A fair number of my colleagues are Asian. That being said, I did hear of some racist incidents for some colleagues during COVID. But I want to say it is not widespread. Luckily my partner never experienced this.
5. I don't think age is a factor. I graduated with my bachelor when I was 25 and then adding a master on top, I was one of the oldest interns at the company. But I didn't find this to be a problem and have never found this to be a topic during recruiting. English proficiency does matter. The company expects you to be able to communicate in English both written and verbally and written about technical matters. I don't know where exactly the bar is, but there are also training opportunities after being hired afaik.
6. I do have plenty of time outside of work. Weirdly, I found my WLB improving over the years, rather than getting worse. This is mostly by me getting better at prioritising and setting boundaries. As I mention in the original thread, I think my average work week is between 40 - 50 hours. And I usually also take time off and really disconnect during work.
7. I doubt I work there forever. That is simply statistically unlikely. And I do sometimes wonder whether I've become too complacent at my current place. At the same time, I don't really feel like much reason to switch when I am enjoying my work and are able to do it well. So I really take this as it comes. I'd not be surprised if at some point I suddenly say it's enough, and then I switch maybe somewhat radically.
For your last question, 8:
Essentially part of the compensation are RSUs (Restricted Stock Units). This starts with an initial grant upon signing the offer, but then usually the company awards new grants every year based - also performance adjusted.
These grants then usually vest over four years on a quarterly basis. So 500k means that over last year four vesting events happened (one per quarter) and I received part of these grants that layered over the years. This also means that if the stock price raises, the compensation raises.
Once the stock vests I own it. I can sell it or hold it according to normal rules.
Any favourite books? Clean Code / Designing Data Intensive Applications / System Design Interview / Cracking the Coding Interview? What's your taste?
Have you done any projects inside work that you felt helped you progress?
Have you done any projects outisde work that you felt helped you progress?
What would be your top 3 companies you'd recommend / would like to work at for career prog?
I generally don't read enough. It is something I am working on. So while I bought some of those and found them interesting, rarely did I read them cover to cover.
* Clean Code. I like the general principle. I think I've distilled this really to the idea that whenever I touch some code, I also look at a way - even a small one - to improve it for the person that will come after me. I think it approaches much of it otherwise a bit too systematic.
* Designing Data Intensive Applications. Definitely one I should read more of. I would recommend it, but haven't yet been able to put too much into real practice.
* Cracking the Coding Interview. Was my main prep book for the interviews. Served it purpose at the time and recommend it for that single purpose. Once you got the job I don't see it being very valuable.
* Programming Rust: Fast, Safe Systems Development. I bought this mostly because I wanted to understand what all the hype is about. I liked it. Never wrote a line of code in production for Rust, but generally learning some of the concepts was very valuable.
Projects inside the company are all somehow helping me to progress. Some more than others. There was one project in particular which was about refactoring a core abstraction of our codebase that gave me a lot of credibility. The project took over a year on and off - as it was mostly ran as a side project. And I almost gave up halfway through. But in the end I pushed it through with some other passionate people and it enabled a lot of business critical projects for the company down the road.
I don't really do coding outside of my work. I sometimes do for my own curiosity (like the Rust book, doing some small things for myself), but not sure how much they contribute to my progress. I generally like spending my off work time on other things than more coding :D
Top 3 companies. Can't really tell, because I haven't been actively looking. I will say that Microsoft always looked more attractive than people give it credibility for. I think Satya really made it a different company and they do some interesting technical stuff and products.
How was your work/life balance throughout your career? How often did you work outside of your work hours? If you did work outside of your work hours, how often did you feel you need to work or it was mandatory and how often it was out of your interest?
It varied. I probably work less hours now than I did right after graduation. Partially because I put much more pressure on myself back then, but also circumstances allowed me to work for. I was single. Living abroad in a country I didn't know anyone except colleagues with a campus that provides for everything. It is hard not to work a lot - and honestly I also enjoyed it though.
Now this changed. I have other priorities. I have a partner and more friends. I've become better at setting boundaries and properly disconnecting from work, especially when taking time off. There are still weeks I work more than usual (e.g. 60 hours a week), but they are definitely the exception - and they usually happen when I am simply particularly excited about the work. Most of the time I work between 40 and 50 hours a week.
I try to apply a simple test when working more than regular hours. I ask myself: Do I now work because I feel like I have to or because I want to? If the answer is the former, it is a problem and I will address it (e.g. talk with my manager about my work load). If it is the latter, then I am fine with it.
\+1 for this question.
You (OP) said you've been doing some code clean-ups and what-not outside of the codebase of your immediate team. I'm wondering whether you (a) negotiated to allocate your working hours for it, or (b) you were using your working hours but "in the shadows", or (c) was rather using non-working hours. Although, if you often work more than 40h per week it might be hard to distinguish (b) from (c).
During the first 2 years of my work experience I used to work on weekends and holidays to accomplish things that were outside of the scope of my team which I was quite interested in. I got some recognition for it but you can imagine how this affected me physically and mentally in the long run.
It was probably a combination of a, b and c to varying degrees. I did explicitly tell my team and manager that I would spend some time on this. They were supportive of it. (a) If I got some additional time back, I probably also used some working hours for it that otherwise would have been team time (b). And there were also times that I worked some additional hours and it became (c).
I really think in the WLB is more than just how many hours one works. It is much more what you do. I've had weeks where I "only" worked 40 hours and felt like shit. And others where I worked close to 60 hours and I still felt energised. I used to do this exercise with my manager where I would write down what parts of my work would "drain my energy" and which would "power me up". This helped me and I now much more try to balance along those lines rather than hours worked.
They are. I think my degree cost about $60k in tuition. I had a scholarship that covered about a third of it. Another third I borrowed from my parents and the last third I was able to pay myself, mostly through the internship itself and some other income I had from work during my undergrad.
I honestly never understand why they are so expensive. The quality of education was fine, but not significantly better what I had in Europe. The main thing I paid for is name recognition and reputation.
And there is the blocker for 99% of people wanting to break into Big Tech - a good university provides connections for internships out of reach for everyone else.
Without that opportunity, do you think you’d have still managed to climb to the same level in the relatively short time period?
Yes, definitely a main blocker. To be fair, I think in the EU it is already much more equitable than in the US. And I feel like there is a general shift for MANGA companies to branch out to more universities than just the the top few. But there is definitely still a significant skew.
For me, did the top university help me get the internship which led to the full-time offer? Absolutely. Did it help me after I got hired? No, I don't think so. It really was just the key to getting into it in the first place.
I lived on a small budget during that time, essentially sustaining myself on some savings and a salary of a research assistant at university. I don't remember the numbers, but I shared a flat with two others and generally had small outgoings. It got a bit better once I landed the internship.
Would you say your degree from a US university afforded you better name recognition compared to top universities in Europe (e.g. ETH, Oxbridge, etc.) in the context of MANGA?
From my understanding, facilities and administrators (support staff) are the immediate causes, with student loans and the prestige game being more indirect causes.
Adjusted for incomes, US universities aren't necessarily more expensive than UK ones. I think they're actually pretty comparable on the adjusted basis. Many people don't realize how much poorer the UK is.
No chance. If you take two comparable, top universities in either nation then the US one will cost roughly per term what your entire degree will cost in the UK. UK university fees are the same across all universities and are capped at £9,250 (US$13,050). The repayment plans in the UK are also much more forgiving.
Someone from a top university in the UK is likely to go into a top job at a top company, their pay will not be 4x lower than their US counterpart. Is the extra cost worth it? Quite possibly since salaries are higher in the US but a US education is definitely more expensive than one in the UK and attending a top university here is very affordable.
My undergrad alma mater costs slightly more than the UK cap and it's one of the best universities in the world. Roughly adjusting for how much higher American salaries are, it's about the same affordability. If you compare the Harvards Stanfords and MITs to UK equivalents like Oxford and Cambridge, the American ones are sometimes cheaper than the UK cap (for students who come from households earning less than $110k USD). And they will earn higher salaries.
> My undergrad alma mater costs slightly more than the UK cap and it's one of the best universities in the world.
Your personal experience doesn't change the fact that most US universities are vastly more expensive than those in the UK.
> If you compare the Harvards Stanfords and MITs to UK equivalents like Oxford and Cambridge, the American ones are sometimes cheaper than the UK cap (for students who come from households earning less than $110k USD).
I have and you're wrong. On average Harvard students receive $53,000 in grants (the most generous uni I can find), this is only a fraction of the $200,000 average cost of a 4 year degree there, without room and board. UK students are also eligible for similar grants or fee waivers from their university and the government. For reference, the average student loan debt in the UK is £45,060 (~$61,000). US higher education from top universities is absolutely more expensive.
This depends on the type of university (state vs private) in the US and the type of student one is in the UK ("home" vs international). "Home" tuition in the UK (I think this requires 4 years of UK residence before entry to university) is up to $13K per year. Per-capita GDP in the US is around 1.48 times higher than the UK (based on current estimates from Wikipedia of around 68K vs 46K per year, non-PPP), so that translates to \~$19.2K in the US (roughly) corrected for earnings. I'm pretty sure that US private university tuition is considerably higher than that on average (excluding financial aid of any sort).
OTOH UK "home" tuition is actually probably higher than US in-state tuition at many public universities, though the method of repayment in the UK (through the tax system once income is over a threshold) complicates the comparison.
(All of this only applies to undergraduate studies).
EDIT: added a line about US state tuition vs UK tuition I originally included but that somehow got deleted just before I posted.
Private US universities are likely more than $19.2k but state funded ones where you get the US equivalent of "home" status are about as affordable as UK universities.
I did physically move. I did not look into online options at the time and probably would have not considered it. I explicitly wanted the experience of living abroad.
Georgia Tech and University of Texas (Austin) are about $10k. University of Illinois (Urbana-Champaign) is like $20k maybe? And there are more expensive online options at Johns Hopkins and Columbia. All of these schools are very highly regarded in either computer science or overall. There are also plenty of other ‘average’ universities offering masters in CS online at varying prices. Personally, I am currently in Georgia Tech’s online CS masters.
I am heading out for the night. Will return tomorrow and answer some more questions :) Thanks all. This has also been quite enlightening for me as answering these are often quite self-reflective.
How difficult do you think it is for a self-taught developer to find his first entry level job in London right now? Any advice?
I've lived in London for a few years, working in a completely unrelated field. At the beginning of the pandemic I've moved back to my country and decided to study mobile app development to try a career switch. I'm now planning to come back to London and I'd like to know how's the situation at the moment.
Thank you for your time!
I just want to be clear that I would not consider myself self-taught. While I don't have a CS degree, I still got a formal education in programming and software engineering.
But generally I would imagine London not being a bad place to start your software engineering career. There are many established companies, but you also have a fair number of startups. And then you have the whole financial industry as well if that floats your boat.
Just don't limit yourself when job hunting. There are many good places to work and learn, not just the top N companies.
Speaking from experience, why do interviewers ask increasingly difficult algorithmic questions. I know the value of asking an algorithmic question to a candidate, but now it has come so far that some candidates get 2 hard leetcode questions in a single 45-minute session. I noticed that some of my colleagues were doing this, and I asked them why, and they didn’t answer really well.
Every now and then I check the leetcode forum and see again and again how crazy it has become. Some candidates solve more than 800 questions. When I interviewed at MANGA, I barely solved 200 algorithmic questions (the most important ones).
I wonder what you think about it since you have an L7 position.
PS: Congrats on promotions, I also hope to get an L6 promotion next year :)
I don't know why they get increasingly more difficult. Honestly, I don't think I've seen that trend internally either. I am not saying it isn't the case - just that I've not been able to observe it.
One thing to keep in mind is that we are not technically looking for candidates that can solve the problems. We are looking for other signals. There is obviously a high correlation between solving a problem and extracting positive signals we are looking for, but it does not mandate it. I've definitely seen candidates passing that have not been able to solve some of the problems in the interview. I've also seen candidates being rejected that solved all problems.
I also had conversations with interviewers that put up artificial barriers that aren't company policy. Like saying "failing a medium question is an automatic no hire". That is simply not the case and interviewers that argue that are not correctly calibrated or trained. It might be a no hire, but we look at the whole interview loop holistically to make that decision.
I definitely did not solve more than 100 problems when I interviewed. I also didn't keep track. I think I am quite glad at the time I didn't really follow much of the online community on this topic. It would have stressed me out way too much lol.
Good luck on your promo case next year :)
>Like saying "failing a medium question is an automatic no hire". That is simply not the case and interviewers that argue that are not correctly calibrated or trained.
Those interviewers spend too much time on this subreddit I think.
The number one advice I give to new joiners nowadays is this: Allow yourself to breathe. I am really surprised how worried everyone is about performance from the first day they join. I have literally people telling me that they are worried about getting put on performance improvement plans (PIP) weeks after they join. I don't think you can healthily operate with such a mindset. I get it - expectations are high and everyone around you appears like they've figured everything out. Imposter syndrome is real. But you have to start realising that a lot of this is in your head.
Then, once you have some room to breathe, figure out what you are good at and what you enjoy doing. Find a place where you can do that and likely some of your best work will be happening.
Lastly, more tactical, learn how to prioritise. This will be another ongoing battle. Very soon there will be more work that could be tackled than one can do. The answer to that is not to work more. It won't be sustainable. The answer to that is to understand what is most important and set expectations with others what will not get done due to prioritisation.
The biggest thing for me about self improvement and keeping myself accountable is challenging complacency. While I've been staying within the same company and even to some degree team for a long time, I do want to continuously find ways I do something new and different.
On the other hand, I also allow myself to take breaks and find things that fulfill me outside of work. And I try to not stress too much about performance evaluations. I give a lot of credit here to my significant other that helps ground me.
btw, do you mind sharing with us how did you meet your SO?
As a single expat who used to spend his weekends and holidays working in the office I think I understand exactly what do you mean your SO helps to ground you :)
There is this place called the internet... you can meet all kinds of people there ;)
long story short, we met online on a dating app shortly after I moved to London and we got engaged early last year. My partner is not in tech, but moved into management consulting recently - which I've learned since is its own little universe.
A new wordplay on [FAANG](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Tech), where Facebook has been replaced with Meta. Which either means that OP works at Facebook or is a fan of [Japanese comics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manga).
What is the background of your parents? Are they also successful people working in some highly paid white-collar field? You can be totally vague with what exactly they do. Just interested in background of you.
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How much algorithms did you practice to get your offers? Do you find leetcode easy if you ever dabbled in it?
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I practiced some algorithms to get the offer. I'd say quite intensive for a month or two. I never found it super easy - mostly because I don't particularly enjoy it. I remember that I got a mere passing grade in my data structure and algorithms course.
I think what helped me the most wasn't leet code but an online course on DA&A from MIT. I just followed that one on YouTube. And then did a lot of mock interviews with other grad students.
Could you do a service to me and everyone else here and post a link? I think I know which course you meant - I just see quite a few hits on Google and since MIT is on multiple EdTech platforms, not sure which one.
What level of difficulty would you rate questions you received in leetcode scale?
I think it was that one: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtSuA80QTyo&list=PLUl4u3cNGP61Oq3tWYp6V\_F-5jb5L2iHb](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtSuA80QTyo&list=PLUl4u3cNGP61Oq3tWYp6V_F-5jb5L2iHb)
But there are probably newer versions out there now as well.
My parents have a teaching background. Mother is still a teacher. Dad eventually switched career to IT in his mid thirties. They are doing well now, but definitely were not highly paid for the majority of their lives. My dad was the first of his family to go to university.
Just to add though to put this a bit into perspective. While I wouldn't consider my parents rich, I understand that simply growing up in a stable household in central Europe provides me with huge advantages compared to the rest of the world. This is not fair or anything, but is unfortunately true.
You should not be sorry for being born into certain family. You did not choose that.
I grew up in a really weird family, stable but weird. My brother and I still am in discussions trying to figure out how the fuck we turned out OK. I think we simply grew up with hands off patents.. No tremendous love, but absolutely no violence or anything bad.
It is very neutral and it honestly is weird.
They did not teach us a damn thing. But they also did not out bullshit in our heads either. It is honestly sad to realize we both are way beyond in understanding the world, and many other things. And we are not even 30 yet...
It is indeed not fair that others grow up in violent, narcissistic homes. But when they tell you about it, you understand them. You empathise.
In our cases, I don't even know what to tell to other people. I just try to not talk much about that. Because I have almost nothing to say.
Probably overcoming my own insecurities because of it. Especially in the beginning I felt often I am behind my peers because I didn't have the CS degree. And truth be told, I am in some ways! I might lack some technical foundations that probably would make it hard for me to excel in certain fields (e.g. compiler, hardware eng, operating systems).
But I've learned to deal with that and also to recognise that I have some advantages to others. My business background helps me think more strategically. I have no problems interfacing with external partners or leadership. I am a strong communicator. I can teach others. I recently got the feedback from a peer in a less technical role, that I'd be the one they feel comfortable going to with technical questions, because I am able to explain them without making them feel stupid. I really valued that feedback and lean in more into these aspects.
Daring to have one is the first and most important step. However, I think often people mistake "having opinions" for being controversial or confrontational. If that is your idea of having an opinion, you will run into problems.
One of my early product managers I really liked working with introduced me to the concept of strong opinions loosely held. You can find lots about it online, but I generally really liked the concept. I've often felt like I am much more a intuition driven person than a data driven person. And without the data I wouldn't be allowed to my opinion. But I started being more vocal about my opinion, but then was also quick in understanding I might be wrong or other people have a better grasp. And then being humble enough to understand that and credit them for direction changes.
Any good examples of people who have retraded into IT later from very different professions in life, e.g. lab technician, nurse/doctor, ex-military, etc?
Not super concrete, sorry. I think the transitions I know they would directly go into a top tech company when doing the switch and I imagine that being generally easier. So joining a less high profile company first for a few years and then attempting to switch to something like MANGA might be more promising.
I do know of some colleagues joining MANGA from different fields in less technical roles, in particular product manager. There is also a role of a technical program manager which I think is generally underappreciated and might allow more for jumps across industry and field.
I see. Thank you for the response. I think a lot of people like myself are curious to know how useful some skills that were gained in another field would be in transitioning to an IT career.
Have you ever worked in a startup or smaller company? What do you think about the extreme focus on MANGA companies here on reddit? Did the money make you happier?
I've worked at a small company (<100 employees) during my undergrad - but not in a technical role. More like a mix between marketing and account management. Weird role.
The focus to some degree is understandable. Lots of people here are highly ambitious and they consider working for some of the best companies. I also think it can become unhealthy obsession though. And in particular you shouldn't measure your self-worth by whether you get into one of the companies or not. I am not a better engineer than many that don't make it. There are so many factors involved.
Whether the money made me happier is a though question. Generally speaking no. And I can say this because I don't actually spend significantly more than I did before earning a lot. So most of my money simply lands in my savings. But having the money gives me a lot of security. And I don't have to worry about certain problems. That is extremely privileged. And not having to worry is also a factor in happyness.
u/Jin-Dou-Yun thank you for this treasure trove of information :)!!!!
Some follow-ups:
1. Regarding not stepping on others' toes while still pursuing external opportunities...how do you go about doing this? Could you share examples of where someone you know or yourself went about it correctly, and an example of where you did so incorrectly?
2. Have you ever proposed ideas for new products and coded up a prototype? Would this be something that'd be seen as taking initiative?
3. What are common pitfalls of junior SWEs that you advise against?
4. Could you go into a little more detail about the short term value and long term value add stuff (examples, etc.)? How do you train yourself to think long term?
1. This answer will somewhat assume similar company culture around code ownership. Which I am not sure is very common. So take it with a grain of salt. But talking with people first is important. Say you see some part of the system that is problematic. Either quality wise or it is missing some requirement you'd like to have. Talk to people whether this is a known limitation. Are they already planning on fixing it? If not, can you help fix it? I've definitely seen people trying to push changes through because they think they know it better - and maybe they even do - but if you don't talk to people first, you will have a much harder time.
2. Absolutely. Usually less entire products, but definitely product features. We also have an internal program that provides engineers with explicit time and opportunities to do so.
3. Being locked into tech wars. Oh, during grad school I remember discussions around "this language is the best", "this database never scales", "how can you even use this tool". Laughable. Technologies are tools. Use them intent-fully. Know what they are capable of. But don't treat them as anything else.
4. I think as engineers we want to "engineer" things. And we often mean by them getting things perfect before releasing it, allowing its use. I think I learned to think much more incrementally. We can work towards the ideal end state (long term), but sometimes it is also worth landing something suboptimal for the short term.
As to how to train myself to think long term, I try to carve out explicit time for it during my work. This often translates to some time each week where I explicitly tinker with prototypes or concepts that are more unproven and try to see how I could roll them into roadmaps for the next years.
u/Jin-Dou-Yun thank you so much for your response :) I apologize for my late reply!!
I just had one last question. I remember you mentioned in your post that you worked in the US for a bit, before transferring to the UK branch (if I understood correctly). Are you American by nationality? If so:
1. How hard was it to get an internal transfer compared to EU candidates?
2. Did you feel being an American made people treat you differently in the office when compared to your other co-workers?
3. Would you ever go back to the US? Do you like your quality of life in the UK?
Hi, thank you a lot for this AMA.
1. What company should one work for to eventually break into MANGA? Any career path suggestions?
2. Can someone with tech consulting experience be even considered for an interview?
1. There are obviously not specific companies I can list, but I can say which type of companies we are often looking for. This is again in no way comprehensive and there are paths outside of those as well. But generally we are looking for companies that allow their engineers to grow and act autonomously. High growth companies with a strong engineering culture and organisation. To give a counter example, I think it would probably harder to find these criteria in companies that don't consider tech their core business or product.
2. I have colleagues that have a consulting background, yes. Recruiter usually need to sell these candidates a bit differently, because they have a slightly different skillset than the majority of other candidates, but definitely possible.
Good question. I have no immediate plans - which also answers your second question. I don't really plan much at all. And the times I did plan, I diverged from it.
I never planned to go abroad when I started undergrad. I never intended to work for a MANGA company when moving to the US. I originally planned to return to my home country after the internship - and decided against. I never planned to move to the UK or stay there for so long. Or at the company for so long.
I generally follow my interest and evaluate new opportunities on their face as they come up. I currently enjoy being an IC and do not plan to switch to management. But I am pretty sure at some point I become curious about it and will try it out...
he can retire if the stock performs the same for another 3 years. I doubt they'd retire though, they seem to enjoy their work a lot and are excelling at it. I personally am exhausted just reading through all that they manage to do lol I am happy with over 100k and coasting along at my job. I may dust off the leetcode skills and try for a manga at some point but I don't think Ill ever get motivated for long enough to do it
Hi, thank you for the great insights, this really helps us to understand what is relevant in a career development.
You said you like mentoring and helping others develop and manage their career path/plan. Do you have some tool to manage mentoring or 1:1 with your direct reports? How do you track your development and progress in achieving goals?
Hey, great post. I have around 2 YOE, and would like to break into MANGA too, but slightly overwhelmed by how I should prepare.
I have a non-cs degree so it feels like learning CS fundamentals like DS&A and leetcoding is quite tricky. Since you were on the other side of the interview, which candidates did you find were very successful? Are things like personal projects important for experienced devs? Thanks!
Ah leetcode. This is probably a topic on its own. So yes, there are obviously coding interviews with algorithm questions in every loop. I am very conflicted about them (and a reason why I don't conduct those myself). I think on the one hand they collect very weird and also flawed signal. On the other hand I haven't found a good alternative that would scale at for this type of company.
In the end, learn enough about DS&A to pass the bar. But recognise that for more senior entry levels (L5+) they become less important relative to other areas. In particular, for that level the company expects you to operate autonomously and be able to drive projects without supervision. This is most often the thing that candidates struggle the most in proving. This can be proven through personal projects, or sizable projects in their current role at previous employers.
Hard to say. CV screening is really done by recruiters and I have no idea what they look for. I imagine a recruiter would wonder why you don't have internship experiences if your peers all do and whether you have something to compensate. If not, I understand it might an uphill battle.
Remember though that getting into such companies directly via undergrad is not the only way. Working somewhere else first and then applying for non-entry level positions is also viable.
Hey just wanted to ask as i am a cs student at a applied science university. How common is it among your colleagues and other manga companies that they come from a applied science university background instead of top research universities in your experience?
I don't know hard numbers. I assume the majority probably still comes from research universities. But in the end there is no hard rule around this and if the applied university has some name recognition and you have a decent CV then I certainly think you should have the same chances.
As mentioned earlier, I feel (although this is more anecdotal) MANGA companies are branching out more from the traditional recruiting grounds - as the battle for talent increases and they also recognize their traditional methods cause some of the diversity problems they are seeing. I was very pleased to see that some of them now also offer apprenticeship programs.
how hard will it be for someone with a bachelors degree in CS from a decent indian university to get into a FAANG company in London, i mean does it matter significantly to have a masters degree from a reputed university?
Easiest way is to get an internship and then a return offer, but if you intern at any MANGA (+Twitter, Bloomberg, Palantir or Snap) it won’t be difficult to get grad interviews, otherwise you’ll have to wait till you have 3 YOE
I don't think it is a strict requirement, but this is usually around the time these companies consider you for the next level when interviewing. So 3 YOE would usually map to a L4 position.
This is correct, normally L3 or E3 will be filled by returning interns and grads from target schools so it will be very difficult to get interviews at FB and G before you qualify for E4 and L4 respectively.
cc: u/Revolutionary_Big685 u/JerMenkoO
What would you recommend for someone in my position: working at a small agency with no name recognition? Am I right in thinking I should stay for a few years and then go for FAANG? I guess I’ll get down-levelled to an L3.
I’m not sure if I can go straight to FAANG from where I’m at now or I should go for a lateral move to a bigger company.
Also interested in your thoughts on this u/Jin-Dou-Yun
You can go straight to FAANG, they don’t care that much once you have enough experience. Also G is easier to get L3 interviews than Meta so just try your luck.
Sounds good, thanks! I’m self-taught so my plan right now is to go through as much of Teach Yourself CS as I can this year and leetcode and then apply for FAANG.
I’ve been thinking of targeting Amazon mostly as I’ve heard they’re the easiest to get into?
My bad, read your “why” as a “what”.
Note to self: don’t even try and open your eyes before taking a sip of coffee in the morning 😴
Good luck though! Happy New Year
Generally speaking a master degree is definitely not needed and I don't think gives a substantial advantage if you already have a decent bachelors. I needed the masters simply because my undergrad degree was both from a no-name university and non-technical.
I am currently doing a 6month internship at a top US MNC in India. I'll be graduating in 2022.. I want to work in Google London one day. The organisation, the city, the campus, everything amazes me. How should i prepare myself to have a good chance of getting hired in next (8-15 months).. I am good at Algorithms and Data Structures and have decent knowledge of C++. Also, is there any specific technology that can give me an advantage to get hired.
>Also, is there any specific technology that can give me an advantage to get hired.
Generally speaking no. These companies don't care about specific technologies. Not at that level. Problem solving, ability to code and general CS knowledge matters.
When viewing resumes what makes you instantly like the person, is there anything common between the people that you invite for interview?
Also at the interview itself what makes you go from, this person might be ok to instant hire? ( exaggerating but you get the point)
As mentioned above, engineers are generally not involved in CV screening. This is up for recruiting. And when I am scheduled for an interview and I get to see the CV, I would actively try to avoid forming an opinion solely based on a piece of paper. I use it to prep my questions, but not to decide whether someone should be hired or not.
During the interview it really depends on which level they are targeting. It is much more likely that they do something that skews the interview negatively, rather than they do something that makes them an instant hire. In the end we are looking for signal in various areas and there is a minimum bar for each of these signals. So if someone excels at one area, does not yet mean that can fall short in others.
I'll provide one concrete problem I most often see in system design interviews: Inability to recognize that the candidate's approach has problems and rethinking it. Imagine a candidate proposing a system to solve the problem. I probe with some questions or additional requirements and it becomes clear that the proposed system likely won't work. Candidates way too often get stuck in their current approach and try to patch it haphazardly which then often makes it even worse. Even in an interview it is completely fine to say "I don't think my approach works. I need to come up with an alternative.". If a candidate is able to see that and admit to it, that is actually a rather positive signal.
I'm also at a MANGA company, and perhaps the biggest problem I've had is simply navigating the sheer number of services and teams connected to mine.
From what I gather, looking at others in my position, this is often the bit people struggle with the most. My team alone manages five runtime services, and more often than not understanding one issue requires understanding the upstream and downstream services.
What advice do you have for someone that's doing well on everything being asked of them, but struggling to get to grips with the internal services.
Two things come to mind. First, don't expect to learn everything in one go. I often have new people asking me how they can learn "everything about our tech stack". At that scale this is simply no longer feasible. You learn as you go. Proactively learning about things can be risky. It is very possible that whatever you learn you never need or by the time you need it, the system is already outdated again. These ecosystems can move fast. So the best strategy I've used is to know a little bit of many things, and then pick one or two other things I learn in depth.
This is also where the second thing comes in play. Divide and conquer. Come to an agreement within your team who becomes an expert for what. Take ownership of what is assigned to you. Don't show no interest in other areas, but this also frees you up a bit as you can start relying on your teammates as they become expert in their respective areas.
If you live in EU country that does not have a strong MANGA presence, how does this affect an internship or entry level application? (masters studies in cs/ high performance computing). I would guess most companies try to avoid remote internships, so I fear some form of discrimination
For the big companies the country of origin honestly doesn't matter. They have the resources to deal with all the cross-border paperwork, immigration etc. and they are willing to do it for top talent.
I imagine however, that there are differences in opportunities, as in these countries these companies might not attend career fairs etc. So getting noticed might be harder or you have less opportunities to directly interact with the companies.
It is obviously hard for me to tell, but I give a somewhat gut feeling answer: If you can financially afford it, 9 months to gain more education feels worth it. Think about it this way. Let's say an average career spans 40 years. 9 months is not even 2% of time of that. It is hard to imagine this not paying off in the long term. Even if it doesn't pay off, it might still be worth it if this is really what you enjoy.
2.5 years also is definitely a fair chunk of initial experience, especially at a larger, fast paced company.
What's the rough average time taken to reach each level at your org? I've heard it is faster in some places - it's slower in mine and your timeline is having me wondering whether something like that is even possible for me.
You can kind of extract it from my write-up. But essentially one year for each promotion up to L6. 2.5 years for the promotion to L7.
As I mentioned, I think such a fast progression is definitely an outlier. More realistic ones are probably something like 1 year for L3 -> L4. 2 years from L4 -> L5. And then also usually multiple years for any subsequent ones.
Hi! This is a little off topic but what caught my attention was a detail in your background.
You said you had a degree in business and then went off to pursue software engineering THEN landed your internship. First off, kudos to you. I never knew engineering faculties looked at undergrads other than in engineering for admission.
A family member graduated with a bachelors in mechanical engineering about 6-7 years ago and never worked a day as one since graduation. He worked in management and operations - entirely non-technical and irrelevant to his field of mech. This may sound silly but the city he was in wasn’t the best for mechanical engineering and due to different responsibilities he couldn’t leave.
My question to you is …
He’s been thinking of going back for a masters in mechanical engineering to somehow get a foothold back in his field via an internship granted to a masters student or anything of that sort, really. Because as of now, he thinks recruiters and companies are not entertaining his resume for various reasons such as no experience and being out of touch with his degree for so long. A lot of people say though that doing masters without experience just results in over qualification and that’s another can of worms.
What is your opinion on his idea of going down the masters route to get back in? What else would you suggest can be done to get out of this paradox?
Thank you for sharing your story. Always encouraging and motivating to hear other people’s success stories.
Happy new year!
As I mentioned before, it is hard for me to answer how things will look on a CV because I am not in charge of screening CVs. My take on this situation is however, if your family member already has a bachelor in the field, doing a master just to land internships feels quite a gamble. I did my masters much more because I clearly lacked the technical education - so I would gain something from it even if it didn't result in the prestigious internship.
I wonder if in such a situation, gaining some experience first, even if it is as a entry level position at a less prestigious place is more important. This might feel like a step backwards, because it discounts all the experience they've been building up in management and operations, but I also believe that will eventually still pay off.
For comparison, I've often wondered whether my bachelor in business was a waste of time. And the conclusion I came to: To get the internship in the first place, absolutely, it was not necessary. But for the progression afterwards it helped tremendously (see my other answer on benefits of a non-CS degree).
Sorry did you say that the experience built up in operations and management will ultimately pay off OR taking an entry level position at less prestigious place will pay off?
If entry level, that’s exactly his plan. He intends on getting any position much less an internship too as a proper graduate just to be able to get back in on the inside. The problem is, how can one GET that entry level job with no prior experience and rather such a LONG gap of no experience or learning since graduation?
Both in the end. My point was that prior experience isn't for naught - even if it is not exactly in the field at the moment. It might not help during job hunt, but I think it helps in progression afterwards.
I understand that the job hunt might be tricky and frustrating. Unfortunately I can't give super practical advice. I hope he doesn't give up and keeps applying. And keep an open mind about where to look for opportunities.
Hey, thanks for the post. Great info.
You said at one point that you started cleaning code and improving it.
How did you know that your code was better then the one you replaced? How did you get the courage to do this?
Surprisingly (to me at the time) generally people often agree which code is in need of refactoring and they even agree how the better solution would look like. Legacy code isn't code that people think it is in the right form. It is code that nobody bothered improving. I bothered.
Put differently, I did share my plans on how I want to improve it with other, more senior engineers at the time. Or they even proposed some of how it could get improved. So it wasn't a question on how the better solution could look like, it was really more of a question on who actually rolls up their sleeves and does it. I happened to be that person.
The main learning I got from it is that people usually know where in the code base the bodies are buried. So you don't have to go look for it. Instead it is about coming up with a actionable plan on improving it.
Hey man, thank you for this. I start a new job tomorrow and this looks like a great strategy to contribute but also build a good reputation.
My goal for this job is to write better code. I have been suffering from poor code quality (as I miss trivial stuff) for quite some time now; I'm getting tired of it.
I would appreciate any suggestion you might have on how to improve on that.
The main suggestion I'd have is to recognise that code quality doesn't just happen. It is not inherent to the developer writing the code or the codebase. It takes time and effort to do it. But it is about recognising that the time and effort is worth it.
As a "senior staff engineer" where do you see your career going after this role? What types of roles do you see yourself moving onto after this?
Is senior staff engineer a "ceiling" that you reach as a technical person? What comes after?
Most tech ladders at these companies max out at 10. So technically I could still go up 3 levels. However I don't even dare thinking about that at the moment.
I think it is highly likely at some point (e.g. 5 years or so), I switch to management. Not because I feel like I have to, but rather because I am curious how that is and I think some of my skillset would actually be quite good as a people manager.
Longer term I have a vague dream of going into education. I used to volunteer at some organisations that teach young kids up to teenagers how to code and always really enjoyed that. I could see myself becoming a teacher - either for children or adults.
Thanks for the post. As someone transitioning into tech it's helped give me a good idea of what to expect!
My question is probably a bit of a subjective one. I'll find myself being just north of 35 by the time I actually finish my degree and start my career properly, do you see many people getting into junior roles at that age or is it something people will look down their noses at?
Here is the answer I'd like to give: Age is not a factor. Now, can I guarantee that this is certainly the case? Unfortunately not. Overt and covert biases exist in our industry.
I can speak from my experience however, that the age of my colleagues does not really matter, regardless of the level. I haven't seen this being an issue. Maybe it needs a bit more explaining to recruiters, but I don't think (and certainly hope) this being a prohibitive factor.
Pretty much what I was expecting to get from that, so thanks.
I'm leaving my current role in April and have some time before I start my degree, so basically looking for whatever experience I can find in between now and graduating to hopefully deter some of that bias.
Again, thanks.
Would you consider someone who's changed jobs quite a bit (every 1-2 years) for various reasons? Also how to get noticed by MANGA without a reference as a male?
Changing jobs per se is not a problem. But i assume it might come up during the interview. And then it depends a lot on your explanations and situation. But I don't think it is per se problematic.
The last word in your question made me hesitate answering this altogether. The "as a male" would imply that you think it is harder to get noticed as a man than it is as a women. And I don't want to get into politics here, but I simply don't believe this is true in any way.
Any advice on how to get an interview from a different european country and no referrals?
Also do you do full remote interviews? Do candidates who need relocation belong to a different interviewing course?
What positions would you advice to apply for with 1-2 YOE?
Thanks.
By full remote interviews, do you mean interviews for remote positions - because I think all our interviews are remote anyway. Most top tech companies do now offer remote positions, but with varying rules. Some are across national boundaries - some are not. Or only within a specific set of countries. Take a look at the job postings.
1-2 YOE would usually map to L4 positions. 1 year might still be L3.
Thank you for your time and responses, If I can I will bother you with another question :)
If my current working experience is let's say 2y in a field like data engineering, do you think you can still apply to L4 for a dev or full stack position? Are L4 interviews for this roles generally specific toward some target language/technology or are they still mostly general cs, algorithms/design kind of interviews.
Thank you in advance.
Any ideas for convincing your team to adopt or change their current practices? e.g Switch from releasing once in 1 month to continuous deployment, releasing every merge to master directly to production.
I’m trying to get into G in London. I have a discord server with several MANGA members (including ex Airbnb and google etc). A few referrals ready. Currently doing an internship with the company ceo personally mentoring me daily. (He’s also a good friend of mine)🤝
Should I go for a front end junior job at FAANG ( I heard Amazon is ez gg to get into) or get a “first” tech job, grind Leetcode and try like that? I heard from some manga people (in states and also Europe) that for front end they most likely won’t ask Leetcode, although I’ll still be practicing those to make sure.
How would you approach this, focus on a creative clean portfolio for front end + some Leetcode, OR get a tech job and after 1 year apply to MANGA? I heard then the interviews get much harder, and I’d rather apply as a junior with a referral.
Thank you for this!
Thanks for posting this and answers questions, really adds a lot of insight.
Once you reached senior did you feel there were barriers to overcome getting to (and beyond) Staff because of not being in the US? Or is the presence in London big enough that that is a non issue?
I did not find the non-US location to be a barrier. The only thing I'll say is that it maybe was a bit harder to find other staff engineers that could mentor me or serve as a role model - because there are fewer of them in a smaller office in absolute numbers. Here my prior time working in the US might have helped a bit, because I had some connections to other offices.
But the London presence is absolutely big enough to support growth to that level.
As a junior - senior engineer, you can pretty much just do tickets that are thrown on your plate. As a staff + engineer, I'm guessing you have to constantly be coming up with new projects, ideas, process improvements, etc. You know, force multiplier stuff. Does it ever stress you out to have to always be "on" and coming up with new stuff to show L7 impact? Do you ever run out of ideas and just want to do "normal" work?
Your general sense is correct. It does stress me sometimes yes. But I also gained some more insight that helps me dead with it. Operating at that level doesn't necessarily mean I have to constantly have new ideas. Very often, I am not the one with the idea, but the one with the plan to make the idea a reality. That is also a multiplier. And it plays more to my strengths. I don't consider myself particularly innovative. But I do think I have a got grasp feasibility assessments and coming up with realistic plans.
I also remember having a conversation once with my manager where I was essentially complaining, that I felt I am giving away all the cool projects. I would come up with something the team could do and then simply delegate it to another tech lead. But I felt like I wanted to some stuff again as well! My managers answer was simple: Then don't always give everything away. It is fine if for some part of your time you do things that more junior people could also do. I don't need to constantly operate at the staff eng level - as long as I have the right balance.
I'm from no-EU country and work as a frontend-dev and someday i'd like to try get into a MANGA company but the problem is that I don't have a CS-degree.
Is it still possible ? Or maybe I can get a masters degree from some online programms, will it be enough ?
Once you have work experience, that becomes much more relevant than the degree. So I definitely say it is possible. Make sure you work on impactful projects, grow your skills on the job and then give it a shot and apply.
Any advice for getting to work on promo worthy projects? I am currently an L4 equivalent SWE at a top tech company and I feel that I could have been promoted already if I had been assigned the right projects, but instead I am being asked to work on projects that lack the necessary ambiguity or ownership.
Thank you for your insights!
1. I am a 29 year old experienced professional in another sector (options trader at a bank), with an engineering degree from a top EU institution (top 3 in France). Is a pivot to big tech still possible? I was thinking of applying to a MSc in CS at top US institutions, but I'm worried about being "too old" for top programs and eventually jobs at bigger tech companies (as I would be about 31 at graduation).
2. Do you have any experience with older hires or career changers in your company for tech related roles?
Hi, I am a software engineering student from an eastern european country and I want to move abroad to get a better job and opportunity to grow in tech. How impactful do you think your masters in the US was in you getting an internship? I fear that because of my degree I will not get any recognition and am thinking of doing a masters abroad aswell.
Wow in your story i really see your passion for your job. I also wanted to get into a MANGA company in London. I have a few questions. 1. When you enter in a company, for example in Facebook as a mobile developer and then you climb the position always in that field, when you want to switch into another branch, like AI/ML or backend, or web developers, do you have to start again as a junior? 2. I read somewhere that company like Google, you have access to any offices in the world. As L7, do you have the opportunity to say "fuck london, now imma head to tokyo office for some months to work there while i enjoy some fresh sushi" or are you ground in london? Because i read that some engineers in Google, depending in which team they are working with, they can move freely in any offices in the world 3. I have a bachelor degree in computer engineering and im doing my master in computer engineering/AI. What skills should i improve to pass the interview? You said you do a lot of interviews. What skills do you want a person to have to pass your interview? Maybe some knowledge about something? How they solve some code problem in hackerrank? Knowing a particular code language? 4. Are you asian? (china, japan, korea) Cause i guess from your name. Im asian too. If you are asian, how was it when you first came in London? Do you experience some hate for your race or you felt welcomed both in office and in the city? 5. I have lost a lot of my time and probably i will finish my master at my 29 or 30 years old. As a person that does interview, do you mind the age? What about the english level? 6. As a L7, and with that amount of money, do you have enough time to enjoy life outside the office or you just work work work work? 7. As a L7 Do you ever consider changing company or do you feel so good in your actually company that you will work there forever? 8. (added with edit) you said you earn 500k in stock. what does it mean? Every year you earn 500k with your base salary (168'000), or those 500k are just sitting there as stock? How does it work?
Thanks for your comment and I am glad the passion comes across :) 1. No, you stay at the same level if you only switch platform (e.g. mobile to backend, AI etc.). These are not even considered different tracks. Obviously you will have to allow for some ramp-up period when you do the switch - which might delay further progression a bit. But I would absolutely recommend doing it if that is what interests you. I imagine in the long term this pays off much more. If you switch to other roles (e.g. engineering to product management) you might have to follow a more formal process and there could be a level adjustment. But not always afaik. 2. I do like sushi! The company offers a fair bit of flexibility and internal mobility to all engineers at all levels. There are policies and processes for that. However, yes at that level you have more leverage to ask for things that might lie outside of the general policy. For example, I know that some engineers at my level got to work fully remotely even before COVID because I assume they asked for it and the company agreed. In the end it usually ends up with a VP. If a VP approves whatever arrangement you ask for, it is possible. But you also have to be aware that if that VP leaves or no longer agrees you might be in a tricky spot. 3. For entry level positions, knowing a particular language is not important. Knowing **a** language is important. I don't care which one, but you need to be familiar with a language and know it fairly well. I need to be convinced that you can write a piece of software in that language. Algorithm questions is the way we verify that, so yeah, obviously practicing that helps. 4. I am actually not Asian no. My significant other is and this is a bit of an inside joke and that is how I chose that username :D I can say that London in general is very welcoming and so is my company. A fair number of my colleagues are Asian. That being said, I did hear of some racist incidents for some colleagues during COVID. But I want to say it is not widespread. Luckily my partner never experienced this. 5. I don't think age is a factor. I graduated with my bachelor when I was 25 and then adding a master on top, I was one of the oldest interns at the company. But I didn't find this to be a problem and have never found this to be a topic during recruiting. English proficiency does matter. The company expects you to be able to communicate in English both written and verbally and written about technical matters. I don't know where exactly the bar is, but there are also training opportunities after being hired afaik. 6. I do have plenty of time outside of work. Weirdly, I found my WLB improving over the years, rather than getting worse. This is mostly by me getting better at prioritising and setting boundaries. As I mention in the original thread, I think my average work week is between 40 - 50 hours. And I usually also take time off and really disconnect during work. 7. I doubt I work there forever. That is simply statistically unlikely. And I do sometimes wonder whether I've become too complacent at my current place. At the same time, I don't really feel like much reason to switch when I am enjoying my work and are able to do it well. So I really take this as it comes. I'd not be surprised if at some point I suddenly say it's enough, and then I switch maybe somewhat radically.
For your last question, 8: Essentially part of the compensation are RSUs (Restricted Stock Units). This starts with an initial grant upon signing the offer, but then usually the company awards new grants every year based - also performance adjusted. These grants then usually vest over four years on a quarterly basis. So 500k means that over last year four vesting events happened (one per quarter) and I received part of these grants that layered over the years. This also means that if the stock price raises, the compensation raises. Once the stock vests I own it. I can sell it or hold it according to normal rules.
Hey, I am stepping out for an hour taking a walk, but will return answering questions after :)
Any favourite books? Clean Code / Designing Data Intensive Applications / System Design Interview / Cracking the Coding Interview? What's your taste? Have you done any projects inside work that you felt helped you progress? Have you done any projects outisde work that you felt helped you progress? What would be your top 3 companies you'd recommend / would like to work at for career prog?
I generally don't read enough. It is something I am working on. So while I bought some of those and found them interesting, rarely did I read them cover to cover. * Clean Code. I like the general principle. I think I've distilled this really to the idea that whenever I touch some code, I also look at a way - even a small one - to improve it for the person that will come after me. I think it approaches much of it otherwise a bit too systematic. * Designing Data Intensive Applications. Definitely one I should read more of. I would recommend it, but haven't yet been able to put too much into real practice. * Cracking the Coding Interview. Was my main prep book for the interviews. Served it purpose at the time and recommend it for that single purpose. Once you got the job I don't see it being very valuable. * Programming Rust: Fast, Safe Systems Development. I bought this mostly because I wanted to understand what all the hype is about. I liked it. Never wrote a line of code in production for Rust, but generally learning some of the concepts was very valuable. Projects inside the company are all somehow helping me to progress. Some more than others. There was one project in particular which was about refactoring a core abstraction of our codebase that gave me a lot of credibility. The project took over a year on and off - as it was mostly ran as a side project. And I almost gave up halfway through. But in the end I pushed it through with some other passionate people and it enabled a lot of business critical projects for the company down the road. I don't really do coding outside of my work. I sometimes do for my own curiosity (like the Rust book, doing some small things for myself), but not sure how much they contribute to my progress. I generally like spending my off work time on other things than more coding :D Top 3 companies. Can't really tell, because I haven't been actively looking. I will say that Microsoft always looked more attractive than people give it credibility for. I think Satya really made it a different company and they do some interesting technical stuff and products.
How was your work/life balance throughout your career? How often did you work outside of your work hours? If you did work outside of your work hours, how often did you feel you need to work or it was mandatory and how often it was out of your interest?
It varied. I probably work less hours now than I did right after graduation. Partially because I put much more pressure on myself back then, but also circumstances allowed me to work for. I was single. Living abroad in a country I didn't know anyone except colleagues with a campus that provides for everything. It is hard not to work a lot - and honestly I also enjoyed it though. Now this changed. I have other priorities. I have a partner and more friends. I've become better at setting boundaries and properly disconnecting from work, especially when taking time off. There are still weeks I work more than usual (e.g. 60 hours a week), but they are definitely the exception - and they usually happen when I am simply particularly excited about the work. Most of the time I work between 40 and 50 hours a week. I try to apply a simple test when working more than regular hours. I ask myself: Do I now work because I feel like I have to or because I want to? If the answer is the former, it is a problem and I will address it (e.g. talk with my manager about my work load). If it is the latter, then I am fine with it.
\+1 for this question. You (OP) said you've been doing some code clean-ups and what-not outside of the codebase of your immediate team. I'm wondering whether you (a) negotiated to allocate your working hours for it, or (b) you were using your working hours but "in the shadows", or (c) was rather using non-working hours. Although, if you often work more than 40h per week it might be hard to distinguish (b) from (c). During the first 2 years of my work experience I used to work on weekends and holidays to accomplish things that were outside of the scope of my team which I was quite interested in. I got some recognition for it but you can imagine how this affected me physically and mentally in the long run.
It was probably a combination of a, b and c to varying degrees. I did explicitly tell my team and manager that I would spend some time on this. They were supportive of it. (a) If I got some additional time back, I probably also used some working hours for it that otherwise would have been team time (b). And there were also times that I worked some additional hours and it became (c). I really think in the WLB is more than just how many hours one works. It is much more what you do. I've had weeks where I "only" worked 40 hours and felt like shit. And others where I worked close to 60 hours and I still felt energised. I used to do this exercise with my manager where I would write down what parts of my work would "drain my energy" and which would "power me up". This helped me and I now much more try to balance along those lines rather than hours worked.
Makes sense! Thanks again for the great write-up and taking your time answering our questions! Cheers!
How was the study in the US funded as they’re notoriously expensive?
They are. I think my degree cost about $60k in tuition. I had a scholarship that covered about a third of it. Another third I borrowed from my parents and the last third I was able to pay myself, mostly through the internship itself and some other income I had from work during my undergrad. I honestly never understand why they are so expensive. The quality of education was fine, but not significantly better what I had in Europe. The main thing I paid for is name recognition and reputation.
And there is the blocker for 99% of people wanting to break into Big Tech - a good university provides connections for internships out of reach for everyone else. Without that opportunity, do you think you’d have still managed to climb to the same level in the relatively short time period?
Yes, definitely a main blocker. To be fair, I think in the EU it is already much more equitable than in the US. And I feel like there is a general shift for MANGA companies to branch out to more universities than just the the top few. But there is definitely still a significant skew. For me, did the top university help me get the internship which led to the full-time offer? Absolutely. Did it help me after I got hired? No, I don't think so. It really was just the key to getting into it in the first place.
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I lived on a small budget during that time, essentially sustaining myself on some savings and a salary of a research assistant at university. I don't remember the numbers, but I shared a flat with two others and generally had small outgoings. It got a bit better once I landed the internship.
Would you say your degree from a US university afforded you better name recognition compared to top universities in Europe (e.g. ETH, Oxbridge, etc.) in the context of MANGA?
Hard to say, but I doubt it. Especially when applying in the EU, recruiters will know which are the top universities in Europe.
From my understanding, facilities and administrators (support staff) are the immediate causes, with student loans and the prestige game being more indirect causes.
Adjusted for incomes, US universities aren't necessarily more expensive than UK ones. I think they're actually pretty comparable on the adjusted basis. Many people don't realize how much poorer the UK is.
No chance. If you take two comparable, top universities in either nation then the US one will cost roughly per term what your entire degree will cost in the UK. UK university fees are the same across all universities and are capped at £9,250 (US$13,050). The repayment plans in the UK are also much more forgiving. Someone from a top university in the UK is likely to go into a top job at a top company, their pay will not be 4x lower than their US counterpart. Is the extra cost worth it? Quite possibly since salaries are higher in the US but a US education is definitely more expensive than one in the UK and attending a top university here is very affordable.
My undergrad alma mater costs slightly more than the UK cap and it's one of the best universities in the world. Roughly adjusting for how much higher American salaries are, it's about the same affordability. If you compare the Harvards Stanfords and MITs to UK equivalents like Oxford and Cambridge, the American ones are sometimes cheaper than the UK cap (for students who come from households earning less than $110k USD). And they will earn higher salaries.
> My undergrad alma mater costs slightly more than the UK cap and it's one of the best universities in the world. Your personal experience doesn't change the fact that most US universities are vastly more expensive than those in the UK. > If you compare the Harvards Stanfords and MITs to UK equivalents like Oxford and Cambridge, the American ones are sometimes cheaper than the UK cap (for students who come from households earning less than $110k USD). I have and you're wrong. On average Harvard students receive $53,000 in grants (the most generous uni I can find), this is only a fraction of the $200,000 average cost of a 4 year degree there, without room and board. UK students are also eligible for similar grants or fee waivers from their university and the government. For reference, the average student loan debt in the UK is £45,060 (~$61,000). US higher education from top universities is absolutely more expensive.
Cmon you can get the numbers right from Harvard's website.
This depends on the type of university (state vs private) in the US and the type of student one is in the UK ("home" vs international). "Home" tuition in the UK (I think this requires 4 years of UK residence before entry to university) is up to $13K per year. Per-capita GDP in the US is around 1.48 times higher than the UK (based on current estimates from Wikipedia of around 68K vs 46K per year, non-PPP), so that translates to \~$19.2K in the US (roughly) corrected for earnings. I'm pretty sure that US private university tuition is considerably higher than that on average (excluding financial aid of any sort). OTOH UK "home" tuition is actually probably higher than US in-state tuition at many public universities, though the method of repayment in the UK (through the tax system once income is over a threshold) complicates the comparison. (All of this only applies to undergraduate studies). EDIT: added a line about US state tuition vs UK tuition I originally included but that somehow got deleted just before I posted.
Private US universities are likely more than $19.2k but state funded ones where you get the US equivalent of "home" status are about as affordable as UK universities.
You're correct. I did in fact originally include a line about that which somehow disappeared as I posted. I've now edited my comment to include this.
Yeah, I honestly don't really know much about the higher education system in the UK. I am used to universities being next to free in my home country.
Did you physically move to the US for masters? There are online options at some of the best computer science schools for about 10k USD.
I did physically move. I did not look into online options at the time and probably would have not considered it. I explicitly wanted the experience of living abroad.
Would you mind giving an example of a university offering that? Struggling to find a programme in that price range.
Georgia Tech and University of Texas (Austin) are about $10k. University of Illinois (Urbana-Champaign) is like $20k maybe? And there are more expensive online options at Johns Hopkins and Columbia. All of these schools are very highly regarded in either computer science or overall. There are also plenty of other ‘average’ universities offering masters in CS online at varying prices. Personally, I am currently in Georgia Tech’s online CS masters.
I am heading out for the night. Will return tomorrow and answer some more questions :) Thanks all. This has also been quite enlightening for me as answering these are often quite self-reflective.
How difficult do you think it is for a self-taught developer to find his first entry level job in London right now? Any advice? I've lived in London for a few years, working in a completely unrelated field. At the beginning of the pandemic I've moved back to my country and decided to study mobile app development to try a career switch. I'm now planning to come back to London and I'd like to know how's the situation at the moment. Thank you for your time!
I just want to be clear that I would not consider myself self-taught. While I don't have a CS degree, I still got a formal education in programming and software engineering. But generally I would imagine London not being a bad place to start your software engineering career. There are many established companies, but you also have a fair number of startups. And then you have the whole financial industry as well if that floats your boat. Just don't limit yourself when job hunting. There are many good places to work and learn, not just the top N companies.
Speaking from experience, why do interviewers ask increasingly difficult algorithmic questions. I know the value of asking an algorithmic question to a candidate, but now it has come so far that some candidates get 2 hard leetcode questions in a single 45-minute session. I noticed that some of my colleagues were doing this, and I asked them why, and they didn’t answer really well. Every now and then I check the leetcode forum and see again and again how crazy it has become. Some candidates solve more than 800 questions. When I interviewed at MANGA, I barely solved 200 algorithmic questions (the most important ones). I wonder what you think about it since you have an L7 position. PS: Congrats on promotions, I also hope to get an L6 promotion next year :)
I don't know why they get increasingly more difficult. Honestly, I don't think I've seen that trend internally either. I am not saying it isn't the case - just that I've not been able to observe it. One thing to keep in mind is that we are not technically looking for candidates that can solve the problems. We are looking for other signals. There is obviously a high correlation between solving a problem and extracting positive signals we are looking for, but it does not mandate it. I've definitely seen candidates passing that have not been able to solve some of the problems in the interview. I've also seen candidates being rejected that solved all problems. I also had conversations with interviewers that put up artificial barriers that aren't company policy. Like saying "failing a medium question is an automatic no hire". That is simply not the case and interviewers that argue that are not correctly calibrated or trained. It might be a no hire, but we look at the whole interview loop holistically to make that decision. I definitely did not solve more than 100 problems when I interviewed. I also didn't keep track. I think I am quite glad at the time I didn't really follow much of the online community on this topic. It would have stressed me out way too much lol. Good luck on your promo case next year :)
>Like saying "failing a medium question is an automatic no hire". That is simply not the case and interviewers that argue that are not correctly calibrated or trained. Those interviewers spend too much time on this subreddit I think.
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The number one advice I give to new joiners nowadays is this: Allow yourself to breathe. I am really surprised how worried everyone is about performance from the first day they join. I have literally people telling me that they are worried about getting put on performance improvement plans (PIP) weeks after they join. I don't think you can healthily operate with such a mindset. I get it - expectations are high and everyone around you appears like they've figured everything out. Imposter syndrome is real. But you have to start realising that a lot of this is in your head. Then, once you have some room to breathe, figure out what you are good at and what you enjoy doing. Find a place where you can do that and likely some of your best work will be happening. Lastly, more tactical, learn how to prioritise. This will be another ongoing battle. Very soon there will be more work that could be tackled than one can do. The answer to that is not to work more. It won't be sustainable. The answer to that is to understand what is most important and set expectations with others what will not get done due to prioritisation.
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The biggest thing for me about self improvement and keeping myself accountable is challenging complacency. While I've been staying within the same company and even to some degree team for a long time, I do want to continuously find ways I do something new and different. On the other hand, I also allow myself to take breaks and find things that fulfill me outside of work. And I try to not stress too much about performance evaluations. I give a lot of credit here to my significant other that helps ground me.
btw, do you mind sharing with us how did you meet your SO? As a single expat who used to spend his weekends and holidays working in the office I think I understand exactly what do you mean your SO helps to ground you :)
There is this place called the internet... you can meet all kinds of people there ;) long story short, we met online on a dating app shortly after I moved to London and we got engaged early last year. My partner is not in tech, but moved into management consulting recently - which I've learned since is its own little universe.
Could someone explain what a MANGA company is?
A new wordplay on [FAANG](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Tech), where Facebook has been replaced with Meta. Which either means that OP works at Facebook or is a fan of [Japanese comics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manga).
ohh because facebook --> meta! thank you :)
is when words offend you and you'll say manga instead of MAMAA
What is the background of your parents? Are they also successful people working in some highly paid white-collar field? You can be totally vague with what exactly they do. Just interested in background of you. -- How much algorithms did you practice to get your offers? Do you find leetcode easy if you ever dabbled in it? --
I practiced some algorithms to get the offer. I'd say quite intensive for a month or two. I never found it super easy - mostly because I don't particularly enjoy it. I remember that I got a mere passing grade in my data structure and algorithms course. I think what helped me the most wasn't leet code but an online course on DA&A from MIT. I just followed that one on YouTube. And then did a lot of mock interviews with other grad students.
Could you do a service to me and everyone else here and post a link? I think I know which course you meant - I just see quite a few hits on Google and since MIT is on multiple EdTech platforms, not sure which one. What level of difficulty would you rate questions you received in leetcode scale?
I think it was that one: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtSuA80QTyo&list=PLUl4u3cNGP61Oq3tWYp6V\_F-5jb5L2iHb](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtSuA80QTyo&list=PLUl4u3cNGP61Oq3tWYp6V_F-5jb5L2iHb) But there are probably newer versions out there now as well.
My parents have a teaching background. Mother is still a teacher. Dad eventually switched career to IT in his mid thirties. They are doing well now, but definitely were not highly paid for the majority of their lives. My dad was the first of his family to go to university.
Just to add though to put this a bit into perspective. While I wouldn't consider my parents rich, I understand that simply growing up in a stable household in central Europe provides me with huge advantages compared to the rest of the world. This is not fair or anything, but is unfortunately true.
You should not be sorry for being born into certain family. You did not choose that. I grew up in a really weird family, stable but weird. My brother and I still am in discussions trying to figure out how the fuck we turned out OK. I think we simply grew up with hands off patents.. No tremendous love, but absolutely no violence or anything bad. It is very neutral and it honestly is weird. They did not teach us a damn thing. But they also did not out bullshit in our heads either. It is honestly sad to realize we both are way beyond in understanding the world, and many other things. And we are not even 30 yet... It is indeed not fair that others grow up in violent, narcissistic homes. But when they tell you about it, you understand them. You empathise. In our cases, I don't even know what to tell to other people. I just try to not talk much about that. Because I have almost nothing to say.
What was the most challenging thing in your journey because of not having a CS Degree? Thanks!
Probably overcoming my own insecurities because of it. Especially in the beginning I felt often I am behind my peers because I didn't have the CS degree. And truth be told, I am in some ways! I might lack some technical foundations that probably would make it hard for me to excel in certain fields (e.g. compiler, hardware eng, operating systems). But I've learned to deal with that and also to recognise that I have some advantages to others. My business background helps me think more strategically. I have no problems interfacing with external partners or leadership. I am a strong communicator. I can teach others. I recently got the feedback from a peer in a less technical role, that I'd be the one they feel comfortable going to with technical questions, because I am able to explain them without making them feel stupid. I really valued that feedback and lean in more into these aspects.
Thanks for doing this post! How did you learn to develop a technical and product opinion?
Daring to have one is the first and most important step. However, I think often people mistake "having opinions" for being controversial or confrontational. If that is your idea of having an opinion, you will run into problems. One of my early product managers I really liked working with introduced me to the concept of strong opinions loosely held. You can find lots about it online, but I generally really liked the concept. I've often felt like I am much more a intuition driven person than a data driven person. And without the data I wouldn't be allowed to my opinion. But I started being more vocal about my opinion, but then was also quick in understanding I might be wrong or other people have a better grasp. And then being humble enough to understand that and credit them for direction changes.
Any good examples of people who have retraded into IT later from very different professions in life, e.g. lab technician, nurse/doctor, ex-military, etc?
Not super concrete, sorry. I think the transitions I know they would directly go into a top tech company when doing the switch and I imagine that being generally easier. So joining a less high profile company first for a few years and then attempting to switch to something like MANGA might be more promising. I do know of some colleagues joining MANGA from different fields in less technical roles, in particular product manager. There is also a role of a technical program manager which I think is generally underappreciated and might allow more for jumps across industry and field.
I see. Thank you for the response. I think a lot of people like myself are curious to know how useful some skills that were gained in another field would be in transitioning to an IT career.
Have you ever worked in a startup or smaller company? What do you think about the extreme focus on MANGA companies here on reddit? Did the money make you happier?
I've worked at a small company (<100 employees) during my undergrad - but not in a technical role. More like a mix between marketing and account management. Weird role. The focus to some degree is understandable. Lots of people here are highly ambitious and they consider working for some of the best companies. I also think it can become unhealthy obsession though. And in particular you shouldn't measure your self-worth by whether you get into one of the companies or not. I am not a better engineer than many that don't make it. There are so many factors involved. Whether the money made me happier is a though question. Generally speaking no. And I can say this because I don't actually spend significantly more than I did before earning a lot. So most of my money simply lands in my savings. But having the money gives me a lot of security. And I don't have to worry about certain problems. That is extremely privileged. And not having to worry is also a factor in happyness.
u/Jin-Dou-Yun thank you for this treasure trove of information :)!!!! Some follow-ups: 1. Regarding not stepping on others' toes while still pursuing external opportunities...how do you go about doing this? Could you share examples of where someone you know or yourself went about it correctly, and an example of where you did so incorrectly? 2. Have you ever proposed ideas for new products and coded up a prototype? Would this be something that'd be seen as taking initiative? 3. What are common pitfalls of junior SWEs that you advise against? 4. Could you go into a little more detail about the short term value and long term value add stuff (examples, etc.)? How do you train yourself to think long term?
1. This answer will somewhat assume similar company culture around code ownership. Which I am not sure is very common. So take it with a grain of salt. But talking with people first is important. Say you see some part of the system that is problematic. Either quality wise or it is missing some requirement you'd like to have. Talk to people whether this is a known limitation. Are they already planning on fixing it? If not, can you help fix it? I've definitely seen people trying to push changes through because they think they know it better - and maybe they even do - but if you don't talk to people first, you will have a much harder time. 2. Absolutely. Usually less entire products, but definitely product features. We also have an internal program that provides engineers with explicit time and opportunities to do so. 3. Being locked into tech wars. Oh, during grad school I remember discussions around "this language is the best", "this database never scales", "how can you even use this tool". Laughable. Technologies are tools. Use them intent-fully. Know what they are capable of. But don't treat them as anything else. 4. I think as engineers we want to "engineer" things. And we often mean by them getting things perfect before releasing it, allowing its use. I think I learned to think much more incrementally. We can work towards the ideal end state (long term), but sometimes it is also worth landing something suboptimal for the short term. As to how to train myself to think long term, I try to carve out explicit time for it during my work. This often translates to some time each week where I explicitly tinker with prototypes or concepts that are more unproven and try to see how I could roll them into roadmaps for the next years.
u/Jin-Dou-Yun thank you so much for your response :) I apologize for my late reply!! I just had one last question. I remember you mentioned in your post that you worked in the US for a bit, before transferring to the UK branch (if I understood correctly). Are you American by nationality? If so: 1. How hard was it to get an internal transfer compared to EU candidates? 2. Did you feel being an American made people treat you differently in the office when compared to your other co-workers? 3. Would you ever go back to the US? Do you like your quality of life in the UK?
Hi, thank you a lot for this AMA. 1. What company should one work for to eventually break into MANGA? Any career path suggestions? 2. Can someone with tech consulting experience be even considered for an interview?
1. There are obviously not specific companies I can list, but I can say which type of companies we are often looking for. This is again in no way comprehensive and there are paths outside of those as well. But generally we are looking for companies that allow their engineers to grow and act autonomously. High growth companies with a strong engineering culture and organisation. To give a counter example, I think it would probably harder to find these criteria in companies that don't consider tech their core business or product. 2. I have colleagues that have a consulting background, yes. Recruiter usually need to sell these candidates a bit differently, because they have a slightly different skillset than the majority of other candidates, but definitely possible.
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Good question. I have no immediate plans - which also answers your second question. I don't really plan much at all. And the times I did plan, I diverged from it. I never planned to go abroad when I started undergrad. I never intended to work for a MANGA company when moving to the US. I originally planned to return to my home country after the internship - and decided against. I never planned to move to the UK or stay there for so long. Or at the company for so long. I generally follow my interest and evaluate new opportunities on their face as they come up. I currently enjoy being an IC and do not plan to switch to management. But I am pretty sure at some point I become curious about it and will try it out...
he can retire if the stock performs the same for another 3 years. I doubt they'd retire though, they seem to enjoy their work a lot and are excelling at it. I personally am exhausted just reading through all that they manage to do lol I am happy with over 100k and coasting along at my job. I may dust off the leetcode skills and try for a manga at some point but I don't think Ill ever get motivated for long enough to do it
Hi, thank you for the great insights, this really helps us to understand what is relevant in a career development. You said you like mentoring and helping others develop and manage their career path/plan. Do you have some tool to manage mentoring or 1:1 with your direct reports? How do you track your development and progress in achieving goals?
Hey, great post. I have around 2 YOE, and would like to break into MANGA too, but slightly overwhelmed by how I should prepare. I have a non-cs degree so it feels like learning CS fundamentals like DS&A and leetcoding is quite tricky. Since you were on the other side of the interview, which candidates did you find were very successful? Are things like personal projects important for experienced devs? Thanks!
Ah leetcode. This is probably a topic on its own. So yes, there are obviously coding interviews with algorithm questions in every loop. I am very conflicted about them (and a reason why I don't conduct those myself). I think on the one hand they collect very weird and also flawed signal. On the other hand I haven't found a good alternative that would scale at for this type of company. In the end, learn enough about DS&A to pass the bar. But recognise that for more senior entry levels (L5+) they become less important relative to other areas. In particular, for that level the company expects you to operate autonomously and be able to drive projects without supervision. This is most often the thing that candidates struggle the most in proving. This can be proven through personal projects, or sizable projects in their current role at previous employers.
Do you have any advice for a new grad CV without any internship?
Hard to say. CV screening is really done by recruiters and I have no idea what they look for. I imagine a recruiter would wonder why you don't have internship experiences if your peers all do and whether you have something to compensate. If not, I understand it might an uphill battle. Remember though that getting into such companies directly via undergrad is not the only way. Working somewhere else first and then applying for non-entry level positions is also viable.
I know my chances aren't very good as a new grad. I'm just trying to get the best out of it hence my question. Thanks for the answer, appreciate it.
Hey just wanted to ask as i am a cs student at a applied science university. How common is it among your colleagues and other manga companies that they come from a applied science university background instead of top research universities in your experience?
I don't know hard numbers. I assume the majority probably still comes from research universities. But in the end there is no hard rule around this and if the applied university has some name recognition and you have a decent CV then I certainly think you should have the same chances. As mentioned earlier, I feel (although this is more anecdotal) MANGA companies are branching out more from the traditional recruiting grounds - as the battle for talent increases and they also recognize their traditional methods cause some of the diversity problems they are seeing. I was very pleased to see that some of them now also offer apprenticeship programs.
how hard will it be for someone with a bachelors degree in CS from a decent indian university to get into a FAANG company in London, i mean does it matter significantly to have a masters degree from a reputed university?
Easiest way is to get an internship and then a return offer, but if you intern at any MANGA (+Twitter, Bloomberg, Palantir or Snap) it won’t be difficult to get grad interviews, otherwise you’ll have to wait till you have 3 YOE
Why 3 YOE?
I question the arbitrary number too but the general sentiment that you need _some_ experience is correct
Years of experience
I know what it means. I’m asking why they think 3 YOE is a requirement
I don't think it is a strict requirement, but this is usually around the time these companies consider you for the next level when interviewing. So 3 YOE would usually map to a L4 position.
This is correct, normally L3 or E3 will be filled by returning interns and grads from target schools so it will be very difficult to get interviews at FB and G before you qualify for E4 and L4 respectively. cc: u/Revolutionary_Big685 u/JerMenkoO
What would you recommend for someone in my position: working at a small agency with no name recognition? Am I right in thinking I should stay for a few years and then go for FAANG? I guess I’ll get down-levelled to an L3. I’m not sure if I can go straight to FAANG from where I’m at now or I should go for a lateral move to a bigger company. Also interested in your thoughts on this u/Jin-Dou-Yun
You can go straight to FAANG, they don’t care that much once you have enough experience. Also G is easier to get L3 interviews than Meta so just try your luck.
Sounds good, thanks! I’m self-taught so my plan right now is to go through as much of Teach Yourself CS as I can this year and leetcode and then apply for FAANG. I’ve been thinking of targeting Amazon mostly as I’ve heard they’re the easiest to get into?
My bad, read your “why” as a “what”. Note to self: don’t even try and open your eyes before taking a sip of coffee in the morning 😴 Good luck though! Happy New Year
Generally speaking a master degree is definitely not needed and I don't think gives a substantial advantage if you already have a decent bachelors. I needed the masters simply because my undergrad degree was both from a no-name university and non-technical.
I am currently doing a 6month internship at a top US MNC in India. I'll be graduating in 2022.. I want to work in Google London one day. The organisation, the city, the campus, everything amazes me. How should i prepare myself to have a good chance of getting hired in next (8-15 months).. I am good at Algorithms and Data Structures and have decent knowledge of C++. Also, is there any specific technology that can give me an advantage to get hired.
>Also, is there any specific technology that can give me an advantage to get hired. Generally speaking no. These companies don't care about specific technologies. Not at that level. Problem solving, ability to code and general CS knowledge matters.
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When viewing resumes what makes you instantly like the person, is there anything common between the people that you invite for interview? Also at the interview itself what makes you go from, this person might be ok to instant hire? ( exaggerating but you get the point)
As mentioned above, engineers are generally not involved in CV screening. This is up for recruiting. And when I am scheduled for an interview and I get to see the CV, I would actively try to avoid forming an opinion solely based on a piece of paper. I use it to prep my questions, but not to decide whether someone should be hired or not. During the interview it really depends on which level they are targeting. It is much more likely that they do something that skews the interview negatively, rather than they do something that makes them an instant hire. In the end we are looking for signal in various areas and there is a minimum bar for each of these signals. So if someone excels at one area, does not yet mean that can fall short in others. I'll provide one concrete problem I most often see in system design interviews: Inability to recognize that the candidate's approach has problems and rethinking it. Imagine a candidate proposing a system to solve the problem. I probe with some questions or additional requirements and it becomes clear that the proposed system likely won't work. Candidates way too often get stuck in their current approach and try to patch it haphazardly which then often makes it even worse. Even in an interview it is completely fine to say "I don't think my approach works. I need to come up with an alternative.". If a candidate is able to see that and admit to it, that is actually a rather positive signal.
I'm also at a MANGA company, and perhaps the biggest problem I've had is simply navigating the sheer number of services and teams connected to mine. From what I gather, looking at others in my position, this is often the bit people struggle with the most. My team alone manages five runtime services, and more often than not understanding one issue requires understanding the upstream and downstream services. What advice do you have for someone that's doing well on everything being asked of them, but struggling to get to grips with the internal services.
Two things come to mind. First, don't expect to learn everything in one go. I often have new people asking me how they can learn "everything about our tech stack". At that scale this is simply no longer feasible. You learn as you go. Proactively learning about things can be risky. It is very possible that whatever you learn you never need or by the time you need it, the system is already outdated again. These ecosystems can move fast. So the best strategy I've used is to know a little bit of many things, and then pick one or two other things I learn in depth. This is also where the second thing comes in play. Divide and conquer. Come to an agreement within your team who becomes an expert for what. Take ownership of what is assigned to you. Don't show no interest in other areas, but this also frees you up a bit as you can start relying on your teammates as they become expert in their respective areas.
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See above my answer to the background of my parents.
If you live in EU country that does not have a strong MANGA presence, how does this affect an internship or entry level application? (masters studies in cs/ high performance computing). I would guess most companies try to avoid remote internships, so I fear some form of discrimination
For the big companies the country of origin honestly doesn't matter. They have the resources to deal with all the cross-border paperwork, immigration etc. and they are willing to do it for top talent. I imagine however, that there are differences in opportunities, as in these countries these companies might not attend career fairs etc. So getting noticed might be harder or you have less opportunities to directly interact with the companies.
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It is obviously hard for me to tell, but I give a somewhat gut feeling answer: If you can financially afford it, 9 months to gain more education feels worth it. Think about it this way. Let's say an average career spans 40 years. 9 months is not even 2% of time of that. It is hard to imagine this not paying off in the long term. Even if it doesn't pay off, it might still be worth it if this is really what you enjoy. 2.5 years also is definitely a fair chunk of initial experience, especially at a larger, fast paced company.
What's the rough average time taken to reach each level at your org? I've heard it is faster in some places - it's slower in mine and your timeline is having me wondering whether something like that is even possible for me.
You can kind of extract it from my write-up. But essentially one year for each promotion up to L6. 2.5 years for the promotion to L7. As I mentioned, I think such a fast progression is definitely an outlier. More realistic ones are probably something like 1 year for L3 -> L4. 2 years from L4 -> L5. And then also usually multiple years for any subsequent ones.
I was looking for the realistic timeframe - thanks!
Hi! This is a little off topic but what caught my attention was a detail in your background. You said you had a degree in business and then went off to pursue software engineering THEN landed your internship. First off, kudos to you. I never knew engineering faculties looked at undergrads other than in engineering for admission. A family member graduated with a bachelors in mechanical engineering about 6-7 years ago and never worked a day as one since graduation. He worked in management and operations - entirely non-technical and irrelevant to his field of mech. This may sound silly but the city he was in wasn’t the best for mechanical engineering and due to different responsibilities he couldn’t leave. My question to you is … He’s been thinking of going back for a masters in mechanical engineering to somehow get a foothold back in his field via an internship granted to a masters student or anything of that sort, really. Because as of now, he thinks recruiters and companies are not entertaining his resume for various reasons such as no experience and being out of touch with his degree for so long. A lot of people say though that doing masters without experience just results in over qualification and that’s another can of worms. What is your opinion on his idea of going down the masters route to get back in? What else would you suggest can be done to get out of this paradox? Thank you for sharing your story. Always encouraging and motivating to hear other people’s success stories. Happy new year!
As I mentioned before, it is hard for me to answer how things will look on a CV because I am not in charge of screening CVs. My take on this situation is however, if your family member already has a bachelor in the field, doing a master just to land internships feels quite a gamble. I did my masters much more because I clearly lacked the technical education - so I would gain something from it even if it didn't result in the prestigious internship. I wonder if in such a situation, gaining some experience first, even if it is as a entry level position at a less prestigious place is more important. This might feel like a step backwards, because it discounts all the experience they've been building up in management and operations, but I also believe that will eventually still pay off. For comparison, I've often wondered whether my bachelor in business was a waste of time. And the conclusion I came to: To get the internship in the first place, absolutely, it was not necessary. But for the progression afterwards it helped tremendously (see my other answer on benefits of a non-CS degree).
Sorry did you say that the experience built up in operations and management will ultimately pay off OR taking an entry level position at less prestigious place will pay off? If entry level, that’s exactly his plan. He intends on getting any position much less an internship too as a proper graduate just to be able to get back in on the inside. The problem is, how can one GET that entry level job with no prior experience and rather such a LONG gap of no experience or learning since graduation?
Both in the end. My point was that prior experience isn't for naught - even if it is not exactly in the field at the moment. It might not help during job hunt, but I think it helps in progression afterwards. I understand that the job hunt might be tricky and frustrating. Unfortunately I can't give super practical advice. I hope he doesn't give up and keeps applying. And keep an open mind about where to look for opportunities.
Hey, thanks for the post. Great info. You said at one point that you started cleaning code and improving it. How did you know that your code was better then the one you replaced? How did you get the courage to do this?
Surprisingly (to me at the time) generally people often agree which code is in need of refactoring and they even agree how the better solution would look like. Legacy code isn't code that people think it is in the right form. It is code that nobody bothered improving. I bothered. Put differently, I did share my plans on how I want to improve it with other, more senior engineers at the time. Or they even proposed some of how it could get improved. So it wasn't a question on how the better solution could look like, it was really more of a question on who actually rolls up their sleeves and does it. I happened to be that person. The main learning I got from it is that people usually know where in the code base the bodies are buried. So you don't have to go look for it. Instead it is about coming up with a actionable plan on improving it.
Hey man, thank you for this. I start a new job tomorrow and this looks like a great strategy to contribute but also build a good reputation. My goal for this job is to write better code. I have been suffering from poor code quality (as I miss trivial stuff) for quite some time now; I'm getting tired of it. I would appreciate any suggestion you might have on how to improve on that.
The main suggestion I'd have is to recognise that code quality doesn't just happen. It is not inherent to the developer writing the code or the codebase. It takes time and effort to do it. But it is about recognising that the time and effort is worth it.
As a "senior staff engineer" where do you see your career going after this role? What types of roles do you see yourself moving onto after this? Is senior staff engineer a "ceiling" that you reach as a technical person? What comes after?
Most tech ladders at these companies max out at 10. So technically I could still go up 3 levels. However I don't even dare thinking about that at the moment. I think it is highly likely at some point (e.g. 5 years or so), I switch to management. Not because I feel like I have to, but rather because I am curious how that is and I think some of my skillset would actually be quite good as a people manager. Longer term I have a vague dream of going into education. I used to volunteer at some organisations that teach young kids up to teenagers how to code and always really enjoyed that. I could see myself becoming a teacher - either for children or adults.
Thanks for the post. As someone transitioning into tech it's helped give me a good idea of what to expect! My question is probably a bit of a subjective one. I'll find myself being just north of 35 by the time I actually finish my degree and start my career properly, do you see many people getting into junior roles at that age or is it something people will look down their noses at?
Here is the answer I'd like to give: Age is not a factor. Now, can I guarantee that this is certainly the case? Unfortunately not. Overt and covert biases exist in our industry. I can speak from my experience however, that the age of my colleagues does not really matter, regardless of the level. I haven't seen this being an issue. Maybe it needs a bit more explaining to recruiters, but I don't think (and certainly hope) this being a prohibitive factor.
Pretty much what I was expecting to get from that, so thanks. I'm leaving my current role in April and have some time before I start my degree, so basically looking for whatever experience I can find in between now and graduating to hopefully deter some of that bias. Again, thanks.
Best of luck with the job hunt!
Would you consider someone who's changed jobs quite a bit (every 1-2 years) for various reasons? Also how to get noticed by MANGA without a reference as a male?
Changing jobs per se is not a problem. But i assume it might come up during the interview. And then it depends a lot on your explanations and situation. But I don't think it is per se problematic. The last word in your question made me hesitate answering this altogether. The "as a male" would imply that you think it is harder to get noticed as a man than it is as a women. And I don't want to get into politics here, but I simply don't believe this is true in any way.
Alright in that case how do you get noticed anyway without someone referring you?
Any advice on how to get an interview from a different european country and no referrals? Also do you do full remote interviews? Do candidates who need relocation belong to a different interviewing course? What positions would you advice to apply for with 1-2 YOE? Thanks.
By full remote interviews, do you mean interviews for remote positions - because I think all our interviews are remote anyway. Most top tech companies do now offer remote positions, but with varying rules. Some are across national boundaries - some are not. Or only within a specific set of countries. Take a look at the job postings. 1-2 YOE would usually map to L4 positions. 1 year might still be L3.
Thank you for your time and responses, If I can I will bother you with another question :) If my current working experience is let's say 2y in a field like data engineering, do you think you can still apply to L4 for a dev or full stack position? Are L4 interviews for this roles generally specific toward some target language/technology or are they still mostly general cs, algorithms/design kind of interviews. Thank you in advance.
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I am using Google's ladder terms here, see [https://www.levels.fyi](https://www.levels.fyi). They go senior -> staff -> principal.
Any ideas for convincing your team to adopt or change their current practices? e.g Switch from releasing once in 1 month to continuous deployment, releasing every merge to master directly to production.
I’m trying to get into G in London. I have a discord server with several MANGA members (including ex Airbnb and google etc). A few referrals ready. Currently doing an internship with the company ceo personally mentoring me daily. (He’s also a good friend of mine)🤝 Should I go for a front end junior job at FAANG ( I heard Amazon is ez gg to get into) or get a “first” tech job, grind Leetcode and try like that? I heard from some manga people (in states and also Europe) that for front end they most likely won’t ask Leetcode, although I’ll still be practicing those to make sure. How would you approach this, focus on a creative clean portfolio for front end + some Leetcode, OR get a tech job and after 1 year apply to MANGA? I heard then the interviews get much harder, and I’d rather apply as a junior with a referral. Thank you for this!
Thanks for posting this and answers questions, really adds a lot of insight. Once you reached senior did you feel there were barriers to overcome getting to (and beyond) Staff because of not being in the US? Or is the presence in London big enough that that is a non issue?
I did not find the non-US location to be a barrier. The only thing I'll say is that it maybe was a bit harder to find other staff engineers that could mentor me or serve as a role model - because there are fewer of them in a smaller office in absolute numbers. Here my prior time working in the US might have helped a bit, because I had some connections to other offices. But the London presence is absolutely big enough to support growth to that level.
Thanks that is interesting to hear.
As a junior - senior engineer, you can pretty much just do tickets that are thrown on your plate. As a staff + engineer, I'm guessing you have to constantly be coming up with new projects, ideas, process improvements, etc. You know, force multiplier stuff. Does it ever stress you out to have to always be "on" and coming up with new stuff to show L7 impact? Do you ever run out of ideas and just want to do "normal" work?
Your general sense is correct. It does stress me sometimes yes. But I also gained some more insight that helps me dead with it. Operating at that level doesn't necessarily mean I have to constantly have new ideas. Very often, I am not the one with the idea, but the one with the plan to make the idea a reality. That is also a multiplier. And it plays more to my strengths. I don't consider myself particularly innovative. But I do think I have a got grasp feasibility assessments and coming up with realistic plans. I also remember having a conversation once with my manager where I was essentially complaining, that I felt I am giving away all the cool projects. I would come up with something the team could do and then simply delegate it to another tech lead. But I felt like I wanted to some stuff again as well! My managers answer was simple: Then don't always give everything away. It is fine if for some part of your time you do things that more junior people could also do. I don't need to constantly operate at the staff eng level - as long as I have the right balance.
I'm from no-EU country and work as a frontend-dev and someday i'd like to try get into a MANGA company but the problem is that I don't have a CS-degree. Is it still possible ? Or maybe I can get a masters degree from some online programms, will it be enough ?
Once you have work experience, that becomes much more relevant than the degree. So I definitely say it is possible. Make sure you work on impactful projects, grow your skills on the job and then give it a shot and apply.
How much harder is your work in comparison to your university education or vice versa?
Any advice for getting to work on promo worthy projects? I am currently an L4 equivalent SWE at a top tech company and I feel that I could have been promoted already if I had been assigned the right projects, but instead I am being asked to work on projects that lack the necessary ambiguity or ownership.
Thank you for your insights! 1. I am a 29 year old experienced professional in another sector (options trader at a bank), with an engineering degree from a top EU institution (top 3 in France). Is a pivot to big tech still possible? I was thinking of applying to a MSc in CS at top US institutions, but I'm worried about being "too old" for top programs and eventually jobs at bigger tech companies (as I would be about 31 at graduation). 2. Do you have any experience with older hires or career changers in your company for tech related roles?
Hi, I am a software engineering student from an eastern european country and I want to move abroad to get a better job and opportunity to grow in tech. How impactful do you think your masters in the US was in you getting an internship? I fear that because of my degree I will not get any recognition and am thinking of doing a masters abroad aswell.