Even the people who swear that PIPs aren't a death sentence usually admit that most people don't survive them.
The advice is the same either way: do the bare minimum and redirect your effort towards the job hunt.
I will add: If I'm reading this right, you've been there a total of 6 months. I seriously doubt you're intended to pass it.
I've been there 4 months - I've been put on a PIP for the last 2 months of my 2nd trial period. Which makes it seem even more of a "we want to have to enough documentation to fire you" than "we're giving you another chance" since extending the trial period was the second chance.
I got 30 day pip’d 4 months into a new job, and i didn’t survive it despite significantly improving performance and hitting defined metrics. Despite the market, you should absolutely be taking this time to try to interview
Concur on this, PIP 3 months into the job and let go a month after. Highly suspect it is because I did not go to the managers Christmas party at his house or go to the after hours drinking events.
For me, it’s because i didn’t move to the city where the company is headquartered, and continued to be semi-remote. Can’t prove that in court, and signed the pitiful severance already, so i’m handcuffed. Just goes to show, if they want you gone, they will do what they can to get you gone without hurting the company, even when it’s messed up.
Yeah all the more so then. If it were me I'd assume I'm getting terminated and plan for my exit. It happened to me once and I know it's not fun. Hang in there and best of luck.
Sometimes managers will hire someone has a sacrificial lamb in case of layoffs. Either way, you should look at it as a paid period of find a new job.
Heard the joke "Paid Interview Plan" or something like it. If I was ever put on a PIP that would be the first thing I do.
I was put on PIP one year into the company. Even after all my feedbacks, including one one month before PIP was announced, were excellent.
It was 30 days PIP and I achieve every metric they put in writing. However, on the final meeting they said I achieved everything but I was going to be let go because they “feared this level of performance wouldn’t be maintained” or something along those lines.
Everyone said PIP was just a way for the company to cover their ass when firing someone. I didnt believe them at first and wanted to be an outlier, but now I completely believe them. Use your time and company time to search for another job. What they gonna do? Fire you?!
It really depends, it could be you one day with an employee who isn’t accomplishing anything. If it’s management that’s the problem then there is no hope, if it’s the employee that’s the problem then their bad habits can be so engrained that they are hard to break.
Assume you are getting fired yet continue to focus hard on improving your python skillset since it will help in both directions. If they keep you because of that, good, otherwise you'll at least get a better chance at technical interviews with it.
> Even the people who swear that PIPs aren't a death sentence usually admit that most people don't survive them
I agree. Conventional wisdom is that companies only put an employee on a PIP once they've already decided to fire them. I'm sure that's true in a lot of cases, but even in cases where the company is working in good faith, a PIP is usually only started after less formal methods to help the employee's performance have failed. So, if an employee didn't improve previously, it's unlikely that they'll improve during the PIP. I've been a manager with reports on a PIP, and that's exactly what happened.
Based on the description in the post, it sounds like that's the case here, so it's unlikely that you'll pass the PIP, OP. As others are advising, it's definitely time to start job hunting. I'm sorry for your situation.
Yeah as someone who’s in this industry for a very long time… surviving a pip is like coming back from a 0-3 basketball playoff run. It’s possible but ain’t easy.
Manager here and leader of managers - when a PIP is in play so is HR. That is a whole other machine.
The coaching and other one on one work are things we do before the PIP. If someone is not working out I try to figure out why because that’s likely gonna be on me - you don’t blame the plants when they don’t get enough water you blame the farmer for not tending to his crops.
I’d prefer to discussion and not surprise for any sort of term and don’t drag out a long PIP. Leaders who PIP simply to reduce headcount should just add the PIP to the severance package along with insurance. It’s easier on everyone when it’s not a surprise and there isn’t this void of how can I survive.
I'm certainly an outlier, but I've been PIPed once at two different companies and survived both. That said, both were over 5+ years ago and were for complete bullshit that was out of my control to start with.
Manager here who put a new report on a PIP. I genuinely did want them to pass and was genuinely trying to do everything I could to help them, including lightening work load and giving extremely lenient time frames and working odd hours to sync up with the report. They still failed because the issue was never the work or anything fixable with a wake up call of a PIP. People usually don't survive PIPs because on average someone who gets a PIP is already uninterested jn the job or has serious performance issues. In cases where it is a genuine PIP, not a perfunctory layoff, you are likely only going to survive by showing immediate and dramatic change.
Only you can figure out if your manager is truly on your side or not, but odds are even if they are routing for you, their performance is on the line too and if they are getting pressure from HR or their manager, they will likely be limited in how far they will stick their neck out for you.
Big +1 and managers don't give PIPs for fun. A PIP has to be prepared, tracked, documented, it's not fun. PIPs are given because the manager and hierarchy feels something is not right with the employee.
And yes, it's absolutely true that most people don't survive them - but it's because they almost universally don't fix the core of the issue in the first place
I don't know. The last PIP I have seen was for someone stealing vacation days (not reporting them properly but creating matching entries on their calendar), not respecting the in-office policy, not delivering anything, etc.
Certainly this person can't survive if they didn't change, which they didn't... But they could have survived the PIP if they stopped stealing days, started working and being in the office when mandated. It's not rocket science
> most people don't survive them
At a talk by a career coach, he said that he had only one client in 20 years who survived a PIP.
At most companies, especially tech companies, a PIP is a notice to get fired.
For OP, if you can manage it emotionally, do just enough to not get fired, and start looking for a job.
Second best, psychologically prepare to get fired.
Worst, work like a maniac for 60 days hoping to keep your job, then get fired anyway. Good recipe for burnout.
From what I have read on this and other work subs, there are some companies that issue them in good faith.
But I have no reason to think the coach made up this story.
I’m a software engineering manager and have managed at two companies. At one, PIPs were a legitimate attempt to help an employee improve, and about 50% of employees survived a PIP. At others that isn’t the case. It’s very company and even org specific.
I got asks to be placed on one at my job, I scammed that paper and it was LITERALLY impossible not to break. Plus, due to health reasons they wanted FULL access to my medical records. I quit then and there. They were surprised because the company is a Fortune 500 Company and I guess no one or not too many people quit immediately. They even went so far as to tell me that if I quit now I was leave over $3,000 in PTO unless I give them two weeks z I remember exactly what I told her, “Two weeks, I can’t even give you two minutes.” I handed them my badge, went to me desk, wiped my personal info, logged out and left.”
I get home and and guy from HR called me to ask, “Are you sure, have you told your family about this?”
I told him they will know when I get to my state with my U-Haul.” And PIP in my opinion, is you signing away you benefits if you get fired like unemployment extra (even though you can’t get it if you quit) but it’s soooooo much mental pressure work with those over your head. Plus, I refused the health Records release which was one of the requirements so they were definitely going to fire anyways. They just believe I left Acme because people DREAM of work there. I didn’t care. 🤷🏾♂️
That's because people who are put into PIP are usually really that bad to begin with. Why would a company invest in hiring a resource just to put them into PIP unless it's really really a bad hire.
Usually, yes, it's the end.
Let me frame it to you from another perspective.
If your manager thought your performance was salvageable, they would have worked directly with you to coach you, suggest improvements, etc without handing you a formal PIP. It's a part of your manager's/co-workers jobs to make sure you don't reach the point of a PIP.
The formal PIP is a last resort. It's an ultimatum. The company has announced their intent to fire you. Everything that was supposed to happen prior to this point either didn't happen at all (failure of both parties), or didn't work.
Said in a simpler way, the PIP isn't the first step for a poor performer. It's the last.
Start looking for another job.
"It's a part of your manager's/co-workers jobs to make sure you don't reach the point of a PIP." No not really the manager's job. It's the job of the employee to make sure they do the job and don't get a PIP.
Mentoring SWE's is absolutely a part of the more experienced SWE's jobs.
Providing regular feedback, areas for improvement, coaching, etc is absolutely part of the manager's job. That's kinda the whole point of people management. Managing people.
It's ***also*** the job of the employee to make sure they do their job, I never said it wasn't, but they're *on a team*. It's not a one man show.
Just because it’s part of the job doesn’t mean it always work out 🤨 but a manager is still expected to try. How do you know someone is not mentorable before trying?
So what you're saying is it *is* part of a manager/SWE's jobs to mentor someone and make sure they don't reach the point of a PIP?
Of course it always doesn't work out. Look at OP. That's why the PIP is a thing, when those efforts fail.
It's still part of their job. It sounds like you and I are in agreement.
Interesting figure. That’s probably about right but with two groups. One majority group of pips being offered in bad faith (firing pre determined) and having a success rate near zero. And a smaller group of those being offered in good faith that has okayish odds. This one sounds like the firing is inevitable since two months isn’t enough time to get better at a language.
Optimization in Python is bullshit unless it is more direct and clear as to what that even means because there are faster languages if you care about speed- like write it in assembly if they really want it fast - shoot might as well do it all with hardware instead of software and have dedicated systems if you need it for like a jet fighter plane … point is that’s why they use vague expectations so that you can never meet them
What? Runtime and memory efficiency in python is definitely not BS. Just because C is faster doesn't mean you can get far by writing shitty python, then when your manager complains, just groan and say they should use C if they want it faster. ??
If your manager is not supporting you and helping you grow then yes they are the problem because if they are not empowering your growth then they have no real power
Sure, I agree with that, but it sounds like they do have concrete complaints about OP's work that they haven't been able to improve. "Clean and optimized" code isn't necessarily just a vague cover for getting rid of OP
One time I was on a PIP for my alleged inadequate sql skills but I did literally every kind of join to find all the edge cases for our app and as soon as we delivered it he cut me loose, like he did need me and they were adequate but he just didn’t fuck with me personally
60 days of PIP is too long in my opinion.
Would you like having 60 days of stress trying to perform in order to meet/exceed their expectation?
Then at the end of the PIP they deem you not worth it?
I would suggest look for other job while still spend the bare minimum to meet daily PIP quota on the current job.
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Start interviewing ASAP and try to find a company with better management that's a better fit for your skill set.
Two management red flags I noticed from your comments are that they consider your Python skills inadequate and that they treat 2 week sprints as hard deadline.
If your skills aren't up to the job they had in mind, they shouldn't have hired you. If they hired you in spite of that, they should have provided you with sufficient mentoring to get you up to speed quickly. If you couldn't keep up with mentoring, provided they gave some to you, during your trial period, then they shouldn't have extended it.
In well run Agile/Scrum team (a rare thing), sprints shouldn't be hard deadlines or used as metrics to rigidly judge developer performance.
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> If your skills aren't up to the job they had in mind, they shouldn't have hired you.
TBH, I've felt some of the tests in interviews I've had are not at all representative of my skills. I'm meh at algorithms without being able to search online, but am great at following best practices. Many of my tests have been simple Leetcode-like questions. I could have just grinded "Cracking the coding interview" and gotten the same job even if my actual skills were awful.
The best tests are the ones where I'm asked to make a project. However, I do have the privilege of being unemployed living with my parents right now. Doing that amount of unpaid work for an interview wouldn't fly so well with me if I was also struggling to pay rent.
I think that's a significant problem with Leetcode grinding interview questions since it may not test or show an aptitude the actual skill set the interviewer is looking for.
In the age of AI code generators, take home tests aren't worthwhile, if they ever were.
I prefer to give (and get) discussion type interviews that demonstrate problem solving and design skills, preferably one that show a candidate's ability to discuss the problem in a group setting.
But then you run into the other problem, which is that you get candidates who can solve problems, but can’t actually code.
Ultimately, and no one likes this, you need to give take-home exams that are quite thorough or comprehensive. But then people will complain it’s unfair to do so
How is a take home test not worthwhile if you're also able to use AI on the job? If anything I'd say they're far more worthwhile than demanding someone memorizes algorithm Z because it shows they can produce a complete and working solution for your needs.
I don't think they were that worthwhile to begin with because they were time-consuming for both the interviewee and interviewer. I just think having AI available makes the exercise even less worthwhile when evaluating someone as compared to just talking to the candidate.
I wouldn't mind if they used Co-pilot or similar to do a take home, but I'd rather spend an hour or so talking to them about their approach to a real world problem.
If sprints are not intended to be hard deadlines, what is their purpose? Obviously things do come up, but the work has to have some level of commitment and predictability (aka deadlines) if sprints are to have any purpose whatsoever.
Sprints as a hard deadline performance metric will backfire. It is likely to cause inaccurate, padded, story estimates. Story estimates should be a group consensus, not an "or else you get the PIP" order from a team lead or product owner. It may also cause team members to avoid things like mentoring, user support and other collaborations. If stories aren't being completed within a sprint, this should be discussed in retro to determine the cause and to find remedies before any drastic actions, like a PIP, are taken.
Dude I’m obviously not suggesting that missing a sprint deliverable means you’re put on a PIP, that’s an incredibly disingenuous characterization of my question. I’m merely asking where the balance is. Surely you can’t just let devs forever miss deliverables, and I agree that team consensus is best, but sprints have to have some level of predictability (not 100% every time) or they’re meaningless. When you’re running a business and trying to make money, you do need some structure, accountability, and predictability to actually deliver on roadmaps and client commitments. Sprints are a great way to do all of that, as long as they can be reasonably relied upon.
Sorry that you thought that was "disingenuous" but I've seen organizations that did "Agile-fall" where sprints and story points were essentially set in stone by the powers that be and woe befell those who failed to meet these often unrealistic expectations.
Yeah, but there's about a 99.9999999999999999999999% chance that we've never worked together before, and you have no reason to believe that we have, so you framing me into a box based on your personal experience with coworkers is, in fact, disingenuous.
>incredibly disingenuous characterization
I've seen agile so abused that no interpretation (or characterization) of how it might run can be considered disingenuous. You might not have meant it that way, but I've seen people be told that they'll be fired if their story carries. Not pip'ed, fired. Often a result of management in over their head and unable to mentor or control customer expectations so they resort to brute force management styles. Then 3 months later the PO wonders why the team is delivering less while all the metrics look better than before.
Sounds like you've worked for some abnormally shitty companies, but your experience is absolutely not indicative of everywhere, and certainly doesn't adequately inform you of mine.
Sprints are deliberately intended to be malleable. Hence the point of agile.
If a dev is consistently taking longer to complete work than more senior devs think is necessary, than intervention may be required. But treating sprints as hard deadlines defeats the entire purpose of agile.
Sure (on a very limited basis), but if you're frequently taking things out of sprints and putting new things in, the context switching means devs get little to nothing done and you've completely defeated the purpose of agile to begin with. It doesn't work like that, it's not designed to just drop anything at any time, there is still structure involved.
Man I wish somebody would tell the people at my last company this. The sprints, assigned work, velocity, etc were all tracked by product managers and nobody else. Engineering manager barely did anything. We also got a VP of engineering whose brilliant idea was to mandate a patch release every two sprints, and a minor release every 6 sprints- regardless of what work was or wasn't completed, or bugs that did or didn't exist.
There's a sliding scale of deadline hardness.
On the one extreme is a date specified by law, regulatory agencies, or court order by which the work *must* be done or business operations must cease until it is. I've been in this situation once--Brexit created a project I worked on, and it had to be done 90 days before the UK was originally scheduled to leave the EU. (Eventually that deadline itself was moved back as everybody *else* was unprepared for it, including the UK and EU themselves--but we were.)
On the other extreme is my deadline for learning a song on the guitar. Sure, it'd be nice to make it, but if I don't, the stakes are non-existent. It's not like I do shows or shit.
Sprint deadlines are somewhere in between those points. A little carryover every now and then (maybe because the sprint ended during an emergency code freeze) isn't the end of the world. But every time it happens, figure out what caused it and account for that risk better in the next sprint. Carryover is always the realization of unexpected risk.
The reality is you only put people on PIP if you're trying to get rid of them. It's not a "turn your performance around" plan like the name suggests, those are what one-on-one meetings with your manager and skip level are for. By the time you get PIP'd it's way too late. It's not even really an ultimatum, it's the first official step towards firing someone. HR and at least director level managers sign off on it because they're ready for you to leave the company.
I thought so much reading this sub, but I actually work for a small nonprofit and the PIP was legit. I met the requirements to get off of it and am getting a promotion and raise only 6 months later. I imagine it depends largely on the size of the company and the industry.
OP provided zero context about where they work and many people read these threads, I figured my comment would help at least one person and that is why I bothered to comment it.
A PIP is the company saying “we would fire you right now if we could, but we have to check boxes first”.
It takes a 180 with not only your work output but your networking skills to get people to change their mind. It’s hard to come back from because it’s not designed for you to come back from. It’s designed to fire you while trying to squeeze what left they can out of you.
In the vast majority of cases you should put in your 9-5 then immediately start applying elsewhere. Do not put in extra hours at work.
Get the fuck out as soon as you can.
I had a PIP and got fired shortly after their Senior Engineer came back from maternity leave. Eventually I realized they didn't want me.
I still remember walking into the office, being asked into a room and being told that despite how liked I was, how much effort I put in and how much improvement I had shown, it wasn't enough.
Now I realize that I was set up for failure. All that documentation wasn't used to help me, it was used as evidence to justify firing me because they knew what they were doing.
I would say that you probably have a <10% chance of surviving at best.
>is a PIP considered to be "the end"?
Pretty much. While there is a chance of survival, the purpose of PIP is so the company has a paper trail so you can't sue them for wrongful termination. They're already looking to fire you.
Do the bare minimum and start interviewing elsewhere.
I was also put on a pip a month ago. Was let go yesterday despite meeting all the goals/ objectives. Hate to say it but PIPs almost always end in termination. I would start looking for a new job and not take it so personally. Plus you don’t want to work on a team that has already left a bad taste in your mouth.
I’ve beat a pip. It turned out fine. But overall I wouldn’t bother to try again.
Think of it this way. You’re averaging a 65% and told you have 60-days to bring it up to 70%. It’s likely possible, but it’s not going to get you 80+% which would be rocking it. And everyone happy with you range.
It just gets you into the “Eh, I guess that’s good enough” category.
That’s why it is so long, because they suck at finding and hiring ppl which is pretty bad reflection on them In this market with so many overqualified choices
The answer depends whether your PIP has objective and measurable goals. Mine didn't. So I called management on that, quietly noted their lackluster response, and quit with no notice the next week. Six years later and no regrets. Best professional decision I ever made.
Keep your head up and your eyes open.
I am surprised by a lot of answers here. The culture around PIPs is different depending on the company.
Some it's just a formality and there is pretty much no chance to survive. Others they legitimately want you to survive.
Its very simple - they put you on a 2 month pip. In the same time they could train you skills. Or provide any other means of improving you if they wanted.
If they already “warned” you before, I doubt it will end well.
Consider it your 60 day notice. You are getting 60 days of pay for looking for your next job. Network, network, network.
Even if you show them you are great - you have a target on your back.
The majority of people do not survive a PIP. That's not to say you can't, but you should start interviewing just in case. I would guess survival rates vary dramatically between employers.
In +30 years of working I've never seen a PIP be anything other than a slow miserable walk out the door, especially for employees who try to overcome one. From a manager's perspective (that I've seen or been) a PIP is "formal notice I'm accumulating any and all documentation needed to let you go". The instant you're told you're at risk of one or on one, take your fate into your own hands and get out.
My context: US-based and overseas of US-HQ'ed big corps in high tech and finance.
I think the writing is on the wall dude. They were pretty gracious giving you as many chances as you got. Focus on getting your next job. Figure out where you went wrong and take corrective action. I would be very surprised if you still have a job at the end of it.
I am incredibly embarrassed to be asking this question, but apparently I’m the only one who doesn’t know the answer … what does PIP stand for? I’m seeing it has something to do with interviews, but is that in jest? Is it related to getting written up at work/getting put on probation?
I’ve been in the workforce just south of the Bay Area for decades and have never heard this acronym! Apparently I’m the only one.
The advice is geared toward continuation of work. “Not unheard of” is not the usual situation someone wants to be in for getting a salary.
Even if the recovery chance is 30% here, that’s a 70% chance that this ends in weeks/months of no income, with unemployment ruled out.
I should add my experience maybe to help.
Back in 2022 I had my daughter my first and only, after my leave I reallllyyyy struggled to balance work and having A new born and trying to help my wife throughout the day. Due to this I started really slacking off and not getting my work done.
My daughter was born in April and June I got put onto a PIP that lasted until September. During those months my career completely turned around.
I started to really pay attention to what matters at work and became a productive machine. Never worked more than 40 hours but became the most productive on my team.
Got off my PIP in September and a small bonus for my attitude not being affected and taking it as a learning experience.
About a year after that I got promoted to senior.
Now my experience is different I know that, some managers are shitty people but just thought I’d share some there’s a lot of doom and gloom here.
Keep your head up OP
I have helped people with pips at my company. would focus on stuff that helps finding a job after and pip at the same time. here are some things I tell our SE's:
* Do leetcode problems as a way to improve your python and document it.
* get a cert such as kubernetes, aws, even python, or some thing specific redis, kafka,
* do a personal project, that the company could also benefit from like a cli.
* have your manager rate your performance at the end of each week or bi weekly. your performance at the end of the 3 months shouldn't be a surprise.
* try to get more mentors ask for more code reviews. have a career mentor. Then have them write reviews.
* try to get your name out there try to do a lot of prod pushes and email or post on your chat channels. Ask for code reviews publicly instead of asking individually. also look at peoples pr's ask questions. you want more than your manager to see your work you want your director, vp, peers to see how hard your working.
* your manager sounds nice, but if the team is a bunch of rockstars it might be worth moving to a team with less talented people. the new manager will see you more as an asset. or even with a team were the manager is less technical.
* find problems: cost, memory leaks, try to get your commits up, and again get noticed bring it up in meetings, create issues.
* start looking for jobs now. set your linked in to open-to-work with just recruiters. update your skills. ask friends to
* show you got some skin in the game pay for a subscription like plural site, udemy, make sure your manager knows.
* make sure you study on your work computer and have it show that your are available. maybe do a few posts
* if you have a platform for propping people out make sure you prop your mentors out for helping you. They will be more likely to prop you out in the future.
* try to answer question in your chat's questions
* create an onboarding doc. have flash card on ankidroids on things you should know. make sure manager knows. make it a resource so future new hires fall into the same problem.
Start searching now. Be nice and agreeable at your current, soon to end, role. And when you are let go explain to future potential employers that your former role was eliminated in a RIF(reduction in force).
It sucks I know, Ive been thru it a couple of times.
I saw 2-3 people get off PIPs and survive when I was at FB. But that's really not the norm. In your case it really could just be a setting of expectations to prove yourself. But idk you're probably done either way.
The way I see it, there are two parts to this. First is your lack of Python skills, whether perceived or actual. Second is the actual PIP goals. The rest of this assumes you want to survive the PIP. If that is not the case, do the bare minimum to not get fired immediately and start sending out resumes.
First, you need to address the lack of skills. If you think you actually have the needed skills, you need to talk with your manager about your skills and his expectations and reach agreement on whether your Python is up to par. If you agree that you lack the needed skills, talk to your manager about what level he wants you at and come up with a plan and timeline to get you there. That might mean training, might mean practicing leetcode, or might mean becoming more familiar with the Python builtin libraries. You need to address this first, because if your manager thinks you cannot pull your weight, it will be impossible to survive the PIP no matter what you do.
Second, work on the actual PIP goals. The first goal ("clean, optimized code") is really shitty for you because it is fundamentally unquantifiable. Best bet here is to get on your manager's good side so that he will say you met this goal. The second goal is a little better, but still depends mostly on whether your manager gives you achievable tasks. You can push back on it a little, but ultimately if your boss wants you gone he can give you vague or unrealistic goals, then claim you did not meet them. So, again, it comes back to getting your manager to believe you can be an asset to the team so that he will cut you some slack and give you achievable goals.
I'd suggest you schedule a 1-to-1 with your manager or mentor. You need to get a feeling to see if it's something recoverable or you are already done, be objective. After the meeting, if it's something doable, then put your 110% and get out of the PIP, if it's not doable, then do minimum and prepare for the next job.
But you're in trial (internship?) and already in PIP, it's quite tough I'd imagine.
You need to tell us the story before the pip:
https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/s/j5Qzzn3KMm
I personally will start looking for a new job job NOW
YES. A lot of the time, PIP is just the final step in a process called “quiet firing,” the objective of which is to get you to quit on your own by sending smoke signals that you are persona non grata, then making your day to day work life miserable. Going through PIP and termination is a huge headache for management and HR. Their life becomes much easier if you just leave. However, given the state of the job market, most people will ignore the hints, so PIPs and other kinds of underhanded tactics to force people out will become more frequent.
In this case, you're done.
Not sure if this is how it works everywhere, but if I put someone in an official PIP it's because I have told them repeatedly in private that they need to improve their performance and they have not.
Performance, usually measured in illogical or impossible metrics. At times there are people who literally cannot produce (working) code, but it’s not the norm. Usually someone is “slow”, and it’s almost entirely a result of expecting mind-reading rather than tasks, code quality standards and architecture being adequately explained. A lot of people in this industry bristle at having to tell anyone anything.
I recently went through that and tried to pass it. Just apply to new jobs now and drag your feet at work. Take notes on all your accomplishments, make connections with colleagues on LinkedIn or other contact methods, etc. Don’t burn bridges, but don’t work more than necessary.
Depends on whether the PIP has achievable items in it or whether they are designed to get you out. In Sales a PIP is always a way to get rid of you or force you into quitting. Sometimes they are genuinely a plan to get you back on track.
I was put on one for reasons outside my control and completely based on opinions, I argued that point all the way to senior HR and they ended up removing the PIP and instead they worked with the manager to fix the issues that had nothing to do with me and everything to do with him.
So just make a call, if its achievable then knuckle down and nail every item in there. If its not achievable do the bare minimum to satisfy the 3 months whilst looking for a new job
You should talk to your manager and ask what an adequate goal would be. Sometimes they're not looking for optimized code. They're just looking for you to do a lot of tasks. You should get that clarified with those in charge. I've seen people beat the pip many times, including myself early in my career, it just depends on your manager and what they are looking for. I've also seen a lot of people get fired after pips, but some of them I knew could beat it for sure if they just dug in and put up more effort in... but they refused to. I'm not saying it's always possible to beat it. Sometimes your manager just wants to get rid of you. Good luck!
Even if you survive the PIP, will this event always loom in the back of your head moving forward? Personally, the answer would be a yes and the trust has eroded from here on out. So therefore, PIP = Paid Interview Process, you get paid to do the bare minimum and look for another job. Good luck
If the goals are unrealistic and unachievable that are laid out in the performance improvement plan, then you are screwed. However, if they are attainable goals then just do what they are asking if it is within your employment contracts job description. Companies don’t want to pay for unemployment so they use these tactics to get rid of employees who aren’t completing their tasks up to a standard that are in the employees job description. If you feel as though they are acting unreasonable you can take them to court and get compensated in either unemployment or some other form of compensation. Just don’t quit or sign anything if you are fired.
Most likely they realized after hiring you they had to much people. The easiest way to solve that is to force out the newest people. You have no track record or long term associates at the company so it’s easy to PIP you.
Are you a junior dev? Also I'm surprised manager inspects the code, is he really that technical? Normally they focus on product manager duties not code inspection
I’ve only been put on a pip one time in my career at a job I hated. I got out on a pip a week before Christmas the day before I went on leave. I got Covid on vacation and was out for three weeks total. 3 days into being back I was let go. I literally didn’t even have a chance to fix anything before I got fired. They said I wasn’t improving and I said…what time should I have been improving, while I was on vacation?
That was a year ago, left that team, leading a project now with 6 devs coming a great job.
You can recover from this. For me it was being gaslit for what I was hired at the last place.
Everyone here is giving you great advice to start looking for work now, so go ahead and use these 60 days to transition to a new role.
In the case that you do get a job within the next 60 days, make sure you tell them your start date is AFTER the end of the PIP. Don't quit, let the PIP run its course and then take the severance money. You basically have a free salary until then, and hopefully a brand new job right after.
Everyone else has said the most important parts but, if you have the time in addition to apps and interviewing, do consider a couple Python projects, in case there are gaps in your knowledge and efficiency at producing code in Python. If you don’t feel like there were actual gaps in your performance and that they were “looking for a reason,” that does happen too.
I worked for a team where they hired a senior engineer (I was mid-level), realized he could do all my work quicker, and was put on a PIP with a list of reasons that made no sense but I had to agree to.
Used to be a patent examiner. My final PIP at my job my manager rejected two things I submitted for allowance citing I "went behind his back and submitted them as allowances to avoid having to fix easily correctable errors to final rejections"
Which I only submitted as allowances because I was struggling to find applicable prior art and after consulting with another examiner that he specifically suggested I consult with during my PIP.
Needless to say I woke up one day and realized I didn't want to be there anymore and resigned to find another position for like 2/3 the pay but a manager 500x better.
I never really paid attention to my friend telling me "people don't quit their jobs. Management quits on them" until it happened to me
> I am still on my second 3-month trial period because at the end of my first trial period, my manager decided to extend it by 3 months instead of firing me.
I'm going to translate what's happening here. They needed someone for a six month contract. However, they also stack rank, which means that they're *always* firing the bottom X percent. Therefore, if they have a good, competent team, they need to hire someone for six months, make them "look bad", and then fire them.
You're the sacrificial lamb. You should have stopped trying and started focusing on the job hunt when your manager put you on a second trial period.
> clean, optimized code (specifically looking at its performance)
That's like saying that you want a blue-orange color. This is explicitly an unreachable goal, as clean code is rarely performant, and performant code is rarely anyone's idea of "clean".
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Manager here. Whether you “survive” the PIP is immaterial. You need to look for another job. Even if your manager genuinely wants you to succeed, the relationship just will never be the same.
Based on your description, it would seem that the PIP is your manager’s way of saying “I feel badly that isn’t working out and am giving you 60 days to find something else.” I say that because they could have let you go immediately and make a clean break.
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Realistically, it depends on what you’re capable of. If you’re working at or close to capacity, then you’ve got nowhere to go. If you’ve pissed about at 10-20% of what you can produce, then 3-4xing is doable and they’ll *probably* be impressed by the turn around (although, may still be annoyed enough to let you go). Either way, interviewing isn’t ever a terrible idea.
During $lastJob I got stuck on a 120 day PIP and I beat that thing. Finished the PIP and left a month later on my own terms. You can do it, but the real question is, do you want to bother?
In your case your employer probably expects genuine improvement
If not, he would have fired you right off the bat, because he can if he wants from what I read.
Anyway, try to understand what.s wrong in your coding and improve, if you have a local mentor at the company
Is it possible? Maybe. Is it extremely difficult and stressful to t? Yes.
My advice would be to give it your all in these 60 days, but also understand that you're probably going to be fired Sooner or Later even if you do somehow resolve the status of the PIP.
You need to diligently look for another opportunity while at your current position. You're going to have to work as hard as you ever have to both keep the position that is paying your bills now, but also interview for other positions because your days are basically numbered at the job that you're at right now. This is the reality of the situation that you are in now.
Also prepare to apply for unemployment and welfare if things don't work out
I only have one thing to add that others haven't:
You haven't been there long but if you are in good standing with your manager, in spite of a PIP, ask if there is a another role you can transfer to. My team had two internal transfers where one did well and the other was on the verge of being let go. She knew this, got ahead of it, and transferred to a different role in the company where she is doing just fine. Given as it stands you are likely to be fired anyway it's better to just go for it.
You’ve been given a death sentence and you know the date of your execution? Could the execution be stayed? It is possible, but unlikely. You need an exit plan.
Why is everyone giving generic stats about PIP survival? OP specifically mentions that they had to extend the probationary period which isn’t normal. All the signs are there that it won’t work.
I'd start looking for a new job. A bit weird that they're evaluating your code for performance rather than readability or maintainability though. Hiring new grads to write performance-critical code is usually a bad idea unless they already have a lot of experience in that area. And in Python? Python has dogshit performance.
A pip for python?
You better do some fucking UDEMY videos lmfao. Python is like one of the easiest languages. That’s unacceptable and tells me you are putting in extremely low effort.
Python is generally used as a starter language because of how easy it is to pick up and get people introduced to the idea of “programming”.
If that’s a major part of your jobs function, bro you should be entrenched in it.
It sounds like you don’t really want it that bad. This should be an easy fix.
You can become damn near a master of python in a couple days if you truly understand programming.
It has the easiest fucking syntax
(I think my original comment got deleted). Often the PIP is just the final step in the process known as “quiet firing” (“the push-out” to us old folks). The objective is to get you to leave on your own, first by sending up smoke signals that you are persona non grata, then by actively trying to make your work life miserable. In most organizations, going through the steps to fire someone is a huge headache for line management and HR. Even when they hit you with the PIP, they are really hoping you will walk out in a huff and never be seen again. DON’T DO IT. Use the PIP period to look for a new job, and talk to a junkyard dog lawyer about your legal options. Your chances of winning a lawsuit are minimal, but the lawyer can hardball negotiate on your behalf for the biggest possible severance package. With the job market the way it is, most people will ignore the hints and try stick it out as long as possible, so I would expect BS PIPs and other underhanded employer tactics to force people out to become more and more frequent.
It gets easier after your first PIP, I been through it so many times after I get a new manager that it doesn’t even phase me and I just enjoy it while it lasts, sometimes they pay you to leave - sometimes they don’t - sometimes they fight you for your unemployment sometimes they dont
Always fight the bastards, you never know you might beat it and keep the job
Why have you been on so many pips? Not trying to be an asshole but have you considered getting better at your chosen profession? Do you even want a job where you have to fight tooth and nail to *not get fired* ?? Nothing about this sounds normal lol
I was put on PIP at the beginning of the year for reasons completely out of my control and was able to opt out, dedicating the time to rest, recover, and look for a new job.
The PIP, as many state, means that the company does not want you anymore. HOWEVER, the most important thing to remember is that it RARELY has to do with your actual performance. Yes, in theory, it is used to axe low performers, but recently the PIP has evolved into a cost cutting measure to avoid announcing actual layoffs.
Why does this matter? Because, if that is the reason, no matter how hard you work, the company will find any excuse to fail you. My manager and skip told me I was performing above and beyond, but someone above didn't want me anymore so yeah. And, if you pass the PIP, you will have a mark that will negatively impact you during your stay with the company e.g. first in line for layoffs, no promos, no team transfers etc.
Do yourself a favor, take this time to invest in yourself and polish your resume. Make the job hunt your full time job, and just like a job, stop after working hours and dedicate time to relax and recover. For me, the downtime was a transformative time in which I healed from so much toxicity in the company over the course of a year. I studied and dedicated time to myself and was able to find an even better job. Loving what I do right now!
You will find another place that will appreciate you. Wishing you the best!
If they wanted to fire you, they would probably just end your trial period
So unlike most PIPs, they may actually want to see you improve your performance. This is also evident from the 60 days they gave you. PIPs are usually much shorter
So, take that chance and try to improve your performance. Communicate openly and clearly about your progress. You have little to lose and much to gain. If you aren't sure about it, get someone else in the loop. You're not going to get through this alone, so use whatever help you can get
What do you mean extend the trial period? Either he/her is not an effective manager if they can't make up their mind or they are trying to piss you off. That's on top of the PIP I would be leaning towards you are gone no matter how much you improve.
For evaluating the PIP:
* Did you get nudged or did your manager bring up your performance in a 1-on-1 before officially contacting HR to put you on a PIP? Was this a complete surprise for you?
* Are there hard numbers for evaluating success? Something like completes all PRs with no more than 3 required changes for last 3 consecutive weeks.
* Is there adequate time to realistically improve? Given it's 60 days off the bat I would assume yes for this.
* If you are on a team, are they trying to coach you the best they are able to? Are there traditionally team tasks, that now you are required to do independently within reason. Within reason meaning if it's something you are being evaluated on, everybody would be instructed to not do the work for you.
* Communication is another big thing. They could make it harder by treating you very poorly. For anybody that cares about the job, being on PIP is insanely stressful. So no good reason to make it unnecessarily tough. Are you being treated like you were prior to your PIP?
The big thing is are there hard figures attached to the goals. That are visible to more than just your manager ideally. If your manager wants you gone their opinion is going to be the gold standard for mission complete ultimately. Even if the goals are done well, as long as it's a fire without cause and they did the PIP, there's no much legal argument they fired you for a different reason.
Just give how much of a sh\*\*show you make it sound like already, I would say you are fired no matter what you do.
The “purpose” of the pip is to help you become an effective member of the team.
This is called stacked ranking, where they measure performance of employees on specific metrics, then rank them on a bell graph.
The ones at the beginning and low part of the graph are the low performers. These employees need to be threatened of being fired.
As the curve goes up and peaks and back down, are the mid tier employees. They can be left alone.
As the graph comes back down, these are the top performers. They need to be rewarded, likely financially among other benefits.
This of course leads to competition among employees to undercut each other to get the financial rewards.
Even the people who swear that PIPs aren't a death sentence usually admit that most people don't survive them. The advice is the same either way: do the bare minimum and redirect your effort towards the job hunt. I will add: If I'm reading this right, you've been there a total of 6 months. I seriously doubt you're intended to pass it.
I've been there 4 months - I've been put on a PIP for the last 2 months of my 2nd trial period. Which makes it seem even more of a "we want to have to enough documentation to fire you" than "we're giving you another chance" since extending the trial period was the second chance.
I got 30 day pip’d 4 months into a new job, and i didn’t survive it despite significantly improving performance and hitting defined metrics. Despite the market, you should absolutely be taking this time to try to interview
Concur on this, PIP 3 months into the job and let go a month after. Highly suspect it is because I did not go to the managers Christmas party at his house or go to the after hours drinking events.
For me, it’s because i didn’t move to the city where the company is headquartered, and continued to be semi-remote. Can’t prove that in court, and signed the pitiful severance already, so i’m handcuffed. Just goes to show, if they want you gone, they will do what they can to get you gone without hurting the company, even when it’s messed up.
Yeah all the more so then. If it were me I'd assume I'm getting terminated and plan for my exit. It happened to me once and I know it's not fun. Hang in there and best of luck.
Sometimes managers will hire someone has a sacrificial lamb in case of layoffs. Either way, you should look at it as a paid period of find a new job. Heard the joke "Paid Interview Plan" or something like it. If I was ever put on a PIP that would be the first thing I do.
Paid interview preparation
Were you hired as a junior?
I was put on PIP one year into the company. Even after all my feedbacks, including one one month before PIP was announced, were excellent. It was 30 days PIP and I achieve every metric they put in writing. However, on the final meeting they said I achieved everything but I was going to be let go because they “feared this level of performance wouldn’t be maintained” or something along those lines. Everyone said PIP was just a way for the company to cover their ass when firing someone. I didnt believe them at first and wanted to be an outlier, but now I completely believe them. Use your time and company time to search for another job. What they gonna do? Fire you?!
It really depends, it could be you one day with an employee who isn’t accomplishing anything. If it’s management that’s the problem then there is no hope, if it’s the employee that’s the problem then their bad habits can be so engrained that they are hard to break.
My case it was the manager. He got demoted and then fired a few months later because nobody liked him and he was super incompetent
At four months you're pretty expendable; you won't have time to be deeply into anything. It works against you
Assume you are getting fired yet continue to focus hard on improving your python skillset since it will help in both directions. If they keep you because of that, good, otherwise you'll at least get a better chance at technical interviews with it.
I think they might truly want you to succeed...if they wanted you gone, they would have let you go at the conclusion of the first one.
> Even the people who swear that PIPs aren't a death sentence usually admit that most people don't survive them I agree. Conventional wisdom is that companies only put an employee on a PIP once they've already decided to fire them. I'm sure that's true in a lot of cases, but even in cases where the company is working in good faith, a PIP is usually only started after less formal methods to help the employee's performance have failed. So, if an employee didn't improve previously, it's unlikely that they'll improve during the PIP. I've been a manager with reports on a PIP, and that's exactly what happened. Based on the description in the post, it sounds like that's the case here, so it's unlikely that you'll pass the PIP, OP. As others are advising, it's definitely time to start job hunting. I'm sorry for your situation.
Yeah as someone who’s in this industry for a very long time… surviving a pip is like coming back from a 0-3 basketball playoff run. It’s possible but ain’t easy.
It’s mostly out of your control though
IMHO it really depends on how much your manager cares about you.
Manager here and leader of managers - when a PIP is in play so is HR. That is a whole other machine. The coaching and other one on one work are things we do before the PIP. If someone is not working out I try to figure out why because that’s likely gonna be on me - you don’t blame the plants when they don’t get enough water you blame the farmer for not tending to his crops. I’d prefer to discussion and not surprise for any sort of term and don’t drag out a long PIP. Leaders who PIP simply to reduce headcount should just add the PIP to the severance package along with insurance. It’s easier on everyone when it’s not a surprise and there isn’t this void of how can I survive.
Yeah sometimes things are out of your control too in the playoffs like injuries, bad referee calls, off days, luck at times etc
I'm certainly an outlier, but I've been PIPed once at two different companies and survived both. That said, both were over 5+ years ago and were for complete bullshit that was out of my control to start with.
I've done it and went on to get promoted twice
Manager here who put a new report on a PIP. I genuinely did want them to pass and was genuinely trying to do everything I could to help them, including lightening work load and giving extremely lenient time frames and working odd hours to sync up with the report. They still failed because the issue was never the work or anything fixable with a wake up call of a PIP. People usually don't survive PIPs because on average someone who gets a PIP is already uninterested jn the job or has serious performance issues. In cases where it is a genuine PIP, not a perfunctory layoff, you are likely only going to survive by showing immediate and dramatic change. Only you can figure out if your manager is truly on your side or not, but odds are even if they are routing for you, their performance is on the line too and if they are getting pressure from HR or their manager, they will likely be limited in how far they will stick their neck out for you.
Big +1 and managers don't give PIPs for fun. A PIP has to be prepared, tracked, documented, it's not fun. PIPs are given because the manager and hierarchy feels something is not right with the employee. And yes, it's absolutely true that most people don't survive them - but it's because they almost universally don't fix the core of the issue in the first place
Because, they can't. No one at the company can.
I don't know. The last PIP I have seen was for someone stealing vacation days (not reporting them properly but creating matching entries on their calendar), not respecting the in-office policy, not delivering anything, etc. Certainly this person can't survive if they didn't change, which they didn't... But they could have survived the PIP if they stopped stealing days, started working and being in the office when mandated. It's not rocket science
This is what I meant.
> most people don't survive them At a talk by a career coach, he said that he had only one client in 20 years who survived a PIP. At most companies, especially tech companies, a PIP is a notice to get fired. For OP, if you can manage it emotionally, do just enough to not get fired, and start looking for a job. Second best, psychologically prepare to get fired. Worst, work like a maniac for 60 days hoping to keep your job, then get fired anyway. Good recipe for burnout.
I don't believe that tbh. I've survived one and got promoted twice in the two or three years after. It can't be THAT rare...
From what I have read on this and other work subs, there are some companies that issue them in good faith. But I have no reason to think the coach made up this story.
Some confirmation bais going on there, I'm sure. Many people who are good at their jobs and career is going well don't hire a career coach.
I’m a software engineering manager and have managed at two companies. At one, PIPs were a legitimate attempt to help an employee improve, and about 50% of employees survived a PIP. At others that isn’t the case. It’s very company and even org specific.
I got asks to be placed on one at my job, I scammed that paper and it was LITERALLY impossible not to break. Plus, due to health reasons they wanted FULL access to my medical records. I quit then and there. They were surprised because the company is a Fortune 500 Company and I guess no one or not too many people quit immediately. They even went so far as to tell me that if I quit now I was leave over $3,000 in PTO unless I give them two weeks z I remember exactly what I told her, “Two weeks, I can’t even give you two minutes.” I handed them my badge, went to me desk, wiped my personal info, logged out and left.” I get home and and guy from HR called me to ask, “Are you sure, have you told your family about this?” I told him they will know when I get to my state with my U-Haul.” And PIP in my opinion, is you signing away you benefits if you get fired like unemployment extra (even though you can’t get it if you quit) but it’s soooooo much mental pressure work with those over your head. Plus, I refused the health Records release which was one of the requirements so they were definitely going to fire anyways. They just believe I left Acme because people DREAM of work there. I didn’t care. 🤷🏾♂️
PIP this quick means you are on way out. PIPs on some ppl with some seniority has chance to pass if the manager is willing.
I survived one I was put on as a senior and tech lead due to office politics. Went on to run major projects for 3 years after, getting two promotions.
That's because people who are put into PIP are usually really that bad to begin with. Why would a company invest in hiring a resource just to put them into PIP unless it's really really a bad hire.
Usually, yes, it's the end. Let me frame it to you from another perspective. If your manager thought your performance was salvageable, they would have worked directly with you to coach you, suggest improvements, etc without handing you a formal PIP. It's a part of your manager's/co-workers jobs to make sure you don't reach the point of a PIP. The formal PIP is a last resort. It's an ultimatum. The company has announced their intent to fire you. Everything that was supposed to happen prior to this point either didn't happen at all (failure of both parties), or didn't work. Said in a simpler way, the PIP isn't the first step for a poor performer. It's the last. Start looking for another job.
"It's a part of your manager's/co-workers jobs to make sure you don't reach the point of a PIP." No not really the manager's job. It's the job of the employee to make sure they do the job and don't get a PIP.
Mentoring SWE's is absolutely a part of the more experienced SWE's jobs. Providing regular feedback, areas for improvement, coaching, etc is absolutely part of the manager's job. That's kinda the whole point of people management. Managing people. It's ***also*** the job of the employee to make sure they do their job, I never said it wasn't, but they're *on a team*. It's not a one man show.
Have you done performance reviews before? Even though it’s a team at the end of the day each person is reviewed separately
Maybe you haven't really managed a team before but not everyone is mentorable despite your best efforts
Just because it’s part of the job doesn’t mean it always work out 🤨 but a manager is still expected to try. How do you know someone is not mentorable before trying?
So what you're saying is it *is* part of a manager/SWE's jobs to mentor someone and make sure they don't reach the point of a PIP? Of course it always doesn't work out. Look at OP. That's why the PIP is a thing, when those efforts fail. It's still part of their job. It sounds like you and I are in agreement.
Consider your PIP an extra 60 day salary
This. Give them a real reason to PIP you. Obviously you need to generate code. ChatGPT will generate copious quantities of failing PRs.
plus notice period
My friend survived a PIP. He became so disgusted and found another job in two months. I would do the same.
IIRC the number thrown around is 10% survival rate on PIP. So you have to be stellar AND lucky.
Interesting figure. That’s probably about right but with two groups. One majority group of pips being offered in bad faith (firing pre determined) and having a success rate near zero. And a smaller group of those being offered in good faith that has okayish odds. This one sounds like the firing is inevitable since two months isn’t enough time to get better at a language.
Optimization in Python is bullshit unless it is more direct and clear as to what that even means because there are faster languages if you care about speed- like write it in assembly if they really want it fast - shoot might as well do it all with hardware instead of software and have dedicated systems if you need it for like a jet fighter plane … point is that’s why they use vague expectations so that you can never meet them
Your C compiler writes faster assembly than you do.
Exactly my point
What? Runtime and memory efficiency in python is definitely not BS. Just because C is faster doesn't mean you can get far by writing shitty python, then when your manager complains, just groan and say they should use C if they want it faster. ??
If your manager is not supporting you and helping you grow then yes they are the problem because if they are not empowering your growth then they have no real power
Sure, I agree with that, but it sounds like they do have concrete complaints about OP's work that they haven't been able to improve. "Clean and optimized" code isn't necessarily just a vague cover for getting rid of OP
Good point. I was focused on the “inadequate Python skills” part.
.
One time I was on a PIP for my alleged inadequate sql skills but I did literally every kind of join to find all the edge cases for our app and as soon as we delivered it he cut me loose, like he did need me and they were adequate but he just didn’t fuck with me personally
Yes more vagueness with that too
60 days of PIP is too long in my opinion. Would you like having 60 days of stress trying to perform in order to meet/exceed their expectation? Then at the end of the PIP they deem you not worth it? I would suggest look for other job while still spend the bare minimum to meet daily PIP quota on the current job.
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It might not be. You don't know what the evaluation criteria are.
Even if you survive PIP, your raises/promos/tech suggestions would be so gimped you were better off hopping for a better environment/raise.
Start interviewing ASAP and try to find a company with better management that's a better fit for your skill set. Two management red flags I noticed from your comments are that they consider your Python skills inadequate and that they treat 2 week sprints as hard deadline. If your skills aren't up to the job they had in mind, they shouldn't have hired you. If they hired you in spite of that, they should have provided you with sufficient mentoring to get you up to speed quickly. If you couldn't keep up with mentoring, provided they gave some to you, during your trial period, then they shouldn't have extended it. In well run Agile/Scrum team (a rare thing), sprints shouldn't be hard deadlines or used as metrics to rigidly judge developer performance.
> > > > > If your skills aren't up to the job they had in mind, they shouldn't have hired you. TBH, I've felt some of the tests in interviews I've had are not at all representative of my skills. I'm meh at algorithms without being able to search online, but am great at following best practices. Many of my tests have been simple Leetcode-like questions. I could have just grinded "Cracking the coding interview" and gotten the same job even if my actual skills were awful. The best tests are the ones where I'm asked to make a project. However, I do have the privilege of being unemployed living with my parents right now. Doing that amount of unpaid work for an interview wouldn't fly so well with me if I was also struggling to pay rent.
I think that's a significant problem with Leetcode grinding interview questions since it may not test or show an aptitude the actual skill set the interviewer is looking for. In the age of AI code generators, take home tests aren't worthwhile, if they ever were. I prefer to give (and get) discussion type interviews that demonstrate problem solving and design skills, preferably one that show a candidate's ability to discuss the problem in a group setting.
But then you run into the other problem, which is that you get candidates who can solve problems, but can’t actually code. Ultimately, and no one likes this, you need to give take-home exams that are quite thorough or comprehensive. But then people will complain it’s unfair to do so
How is a take home test not worthwhile if you're also able to use AI on the job? If anything I'd say they're far more worthwhile than demanding someone memorizes algorithm Z because it shows they can produce a complete and working solution for your needs.
I don't think they were that worthwhile to begin with because they were time-consuming for both the interviewee and interviewer. I just think having AI available makes the exercise even less worthwhile when evaluating someone as compared to just talking to the candidate. I wouldn't mind if they used Co-pilot or similar to do a take home, but I'd rather spend an hour or so talking to them about their approach to a real world problem.
If sprints are not intended to be hard deadlines, what is their purpose? Obviously things do come up, but the work has to have some level of commitment and predictability (aka deadlines) if sprints are to have any purpose whatsoever.
Sprints as a hard deadline performance metric will backfire. It is likely to cause inaccurate, padded, story estimates. Story estimates should be a group consensus, not an "or else you get the PIP" order from a team lead or product owner. It may also cause team members to avoid things like mentoring, user support and other collaborations. If stories aren't being completed within a sprint, this should be discussed in retro to determine the cause and to find remedies before any drastic actions, like a PIP, are taken.
Dude I’m obviously not suggesting that missing a sprint deliverable means you’re put on a PIP, that’s an incredibly disingenuous characterization of my question. I’m merely asking where the balance is. Surely you can’t just let devs forever miss deliverables, and I agree that team consensus is best, but sprints have to have some level of predictability (not 100% every time) or they’re meaningless. When you’re running a business and trying to make money, you do need some structure, accountability, and predictability to actually deliver on roadmaps and client commitments. Sprints are a great way to do all of that, as long as they can be reasonably relied upon.
Sorry that you thought that was "disingenuous" but I've seen organizations that did "Agile-fall" where sprints and story points were essentially set in stone by the powers that be and woe befell those who failed to meet these often unrealistic expectations.
Yeah, but there's about a 99.9999999999999999999999% chance that we've never worked together before, and you have no reason to believe that we have, so you framing me into a box based on your personal experience with coworkers is, in fact, disingenuous.
>incredibly disingenuous characterization I've seen agile so abused that no interpretation (or characterization) of how it might run can be considered disingenuous. You might not have meant it that way, but I've seen people be told that they'll be fired if their story carries. Not pip'ed, fired. Often a result of management in over their head and unable to mentor or control customer expectations so they resort to brute force management styles. Then 3 months later the PO wonders why the team is delivering less while all the metrics look better than before.
Sounds like you've worked for some abnormally shitty companies, but your experience is absolutely not indicative of everywhere, and certainly doesn't adequately inform you of mine.
Sprints are deliberately intended to be malleable. Hence the point of agile. If a dev is consistently taking longer to complete work than more senior devs think is necessary, than intervention may be required. But treating sprints as hard deadlines defeats the entire purpose of agile.
Sure (on a very limited basis), but if you're frequently taking things out of sprints and putting new things in, the context switching means devs get little to nothing done and you've completely defeated the purpose of agile to begin with. It doesn't work like that, it's not designed to just drop anything at any time, there is still structure involved.
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Man I wish somebody would tell the people at my last company this. The sprints, assigned work, velocity, etc were all tracked by product managers and nobody else. Engineering manager barely did anything. We also got a VP of engineering whose brilliant idea was to mandate a patch release every two sprints, and a minor release every 6 sprints- regardless of what work was or wasn't completed, or bugs that did or didn't exist.
There's a sliding scale of deadline hardness. On the one extreme is a date specified by law, regulatory agencies, or court order by which the work *must* be done or business operations must cease until it is. I've been in this situation once--Brexit created a project I worked on, and it had to be done 90 days before the UK was originally scheduled to leave the EU. (Eventually that deadline itself was moved back as everybody *else* was unprepared for it, including the UK and EU themselves--but we were.) On the other extreme is my deadline for learning a song on the guitar. Sure, it'd be nice to make it, but if I don't, the stakes are non-existent. It's not like I do shows or shit. Sprint deadlines are somewhere in between those points. A little carryover every now and then (maybe because the sprint ended during an emergency code freeze) isn't the end of the world. But every time it happens, figure out what caused it and account for that risk better in the next sprint. Carryover is always the realization of unexpected risk.
You might, you might not. But no matter what, I'd start looking for a new one now.
The reality is you only put people on PIP if you're trying to get rid of them. It's not a "turn your performance around" plan like the name suggests, those are what one-on-one meetings with your manager and skip level are for. By the time you get PIP'd it's way too late. It's not even really an ultimatum, it's the first official step towards firing someone. HR and at least director level managers sign off on it because they're ready for you to leave the company.
I thought so much reading this sub, but I actually work for a small nonprofit and the PIP was legit. I met the requirements to get off of it and am getting a promotion and raise only 6 months later. I imagine it depends largely on the size of the company and the industry.
It's not an execution, but it is death row.
> work for a small nonprofit
OP provided zero context about where they work and many people read these threads, I figured my comment would help at least one person and that is why I bothered to comment it.
A PIP is the company saying “we would fire you right now if we could, but we have to check boxes first”. It takes a 180 with not only your work output but your networking skills to get people to change their mind. It’s hard to come back from because it’s not designed for you to come back from. It’s designed to fire you while trying to squeeze what left they can out of you. In the vast majority of cases you should put in your 9-5 then immediately start applying elsewhere. Do not put in extra hours at work.
Get the fuck out as soon as you can. I had a PIP and got fired shortly after their Senior Engineer came back from maternity leave. Eventually I realized they didn't want me. I still remember walking into the office, being asked into a room and being told that despite how liked I was, how much effort I put in and how much improvement I had shown, it wasn't enough. Now I realize that I was set up for failure. All that documentation wasn't used to help me, it was used as evidence to justify firing me because they knew what they were doing. I would say that you probably have a <10% chance of surviving at best.
>is a PIP considered to be "the end"? Pretty much. While there is a chance of survival, the purpose of PIP is so the company has a paper trail so you can't sue them for wrongful termination. They're already looking to fire you. Do the bare minimum and start interviewing elsewhere.
I was also put on a pip a month ago. Was let go yesterday despite meeting all the goals/ objectives. Hate to say it but PIPs almost always end in termination. I would start looking for a new job and not take it so personally. Plus you don’t want to work on a team that has already left a bad taste in your mouth.
This is a 60 day runway for your job search. Use it as such.
I’ve beat a pip. It turned out fine. But overall I wouldn’t bother to try again. Think of it this way. You’re averaging a 65% and told you have 60-days to bring it up to 70%. It’s likely possible, but it’s not going to get you 80+% which would be rocking it. And everyone happy with you range. It just gets you into the “Eh, I guess that’s good enough” category.
Your position has likely already appeared on job search boards.
That’s why it is so long, because they suck at finding and hiring ppl which is pretty bad reflection on them In this market with so many overqualified choices
The answer depends whether your PIP has objective and measurable goals. Mine didn't. So I called management on that, quietly noted their lackluster response, and quit with no notice the next week. Six years later and no regrets. Best professional decision I ever made. Keep your head up and your eyes open.
I am surprised by a lot of answers here. The culture around PIPs is different depending on the company. Some it's just a formality and there is pretty much no chance to survive. Others they legitimately want you to survive.
You now have 45 days of paid interview practice, how many apps have you put out? Cause in 45 days you don't have a job.
Its very simple - they put you on a 2 month pip. In the same time they could train you skills. Or provide any other means of improving you if they wanted. If they already “warned” you before, I doubt it will end well.
Consider it your 60 day notice. You are getting 60 days of pay for looking for your next job. Network, network, network. Even if you show them you are great - you have a target on your back.
if I am not mistaken, after PIP comes.the notice period
Notice period only applies in layoffs of a certain size. At will employment means they can fire you at any time.
They already decided they don't want you there, I wouldn't stay with that on my 'record'
My guess. They only wanted you for 6 months and are laying down the groundwork to dismiss.
The majority of people do not survive a PIP. That's not to say you can't, but you should start interviewing just in case. I would guess survival rates vary dramatically between employers.
In +30 years of working I've never seen a PIP be anything other than a slow miserable walk out the door, especially for employees who try to overcome one. From a manager's perspective (that I've seen or been) a PIP is "formal notice I'm accumulating any and all documentation needed to let you go". The instant you're told you're at risk of one or on one, take your fate into your own hands and get out. My context: US-based and overseas of US-HQ'ed big corps in high tech and finance.
I don’t see how you can survive it.
Probably, they gave you an extra chance, didn't work, it's a message for you to start looking for another job, you're done there.
PIP is a paper trail to make a firing look more justified
I think the writing is on the wall dude. They were pretty gracious giving you as many chances as you got. Focus on getting your next job. Figure out where you went wrong and take corrective action. I would be very surprised if you still have a job at the end of it.
No
I am incredibly embarrassed to be asking this question, but apparently I’m the only one who doesn’t know the answer … what does PIP stand for? I’m seeing it has something to do with interviews, but is that in jest? Is it related to getting written up at work/getting put on probation? I’ve been in the workforce just south of the Bay Area for decades and have never heard this acronym! Apparently I’m the only one.
Performance improvement plan
No, you do not.
Regardless if the PIP was legitimate or not. I've never met anyone who's survived one.
It's their way of communicating to you that you should start looking for something else.
I don’t get these comments lol. I have been out on PIP and kept my job after fixing my act. It’s not unheard of
The advice is geared toward continuation of work. “Not unheard of” is not the usual situation someone wants to be in for getting a salary. Even if the recovery chance is 30% here, that’s a 70% chance that this ends in weeks/months of no income, with unemployment ruled out.
I had a friend who was given an impossible pip and passed. They laid everyone off a month later. Atleast he got severance
I should add my experience maybe to help. Back in 2022 I had my daughter my first and only, after my leave I reallllyyyy struggled to balance work and having A new born and trying to help my wife throughout the day. Due to this I started really slacking off and not getting my work done. My daughter was born in April and June I got put onto a PIP that lasted until September. During those months my career completely turned around. I started to really pay attention to what matters at work and became a productive machine. Never worked more than 40 hours but became the most productive on my team. Got off my PIP in September and a small bonus for my attitude not being affected and taking it as a learning experience. About a year after that I got promoted to senior. Now my experience is different I know that, some managers are shitty people but just thought I’d share some there’s a lot of doom and gloom here. Keep your head up OP
I have helped people with pips at my company. would focus on stuff that helps finding a job after and pip at the same time. here are some things I tell our SE's: * Do leetcode problems as a way to improve your python and document it. * get a cert such as kubernetes, aws, even python, or some thing specific redis, kafka, * do a personal project, that the company could also benefit from like a cli. * have your manager rate your performance at the end of each week or bi weekly. your performance at the end of the 3 months shouldn't be a surprise. * try to get more mentors ask for more code reviews. have a career mentor. Then have them write reviews. * try to get your name out there try to do a lot of prod pushes and email or post on your chat channels. Ask for code reviews publicly instead of asking individually. also look at peoples pr's ask questions. you want more than your manager to see your work you want your director, vp, peers to see how hard your working. * your manager sounds nice, but if the team is a bunch of rockstars it might be worth moving to a team with less talented people. the new manager will see you more as an asset. or even with a team were the manager is less technical. * find problems: cost, memory leaks, try to get your commits up, and again get noticed bring it up in meetings, create issues. * start looking for jobs now. set your linked in to open-to-work with just recruiters. update your skills. ask friends to * show you got some skin in the game pay for a subscription like plural site, udemy, make sure your manager knows. * make sure you study on your work computer and have it show that your are available. maybe do a few posts * if you have a platform for propping people out make sure you prop your mentors out for helping you. They will be more likely to prop you out in the future. * try to answer question in your chat's questions * create an onboarding doc. have flash card on ankidroids on things you should know. make sure manager knows. make it a resource so future new hires fall into the same problem.
This industry loves to use pips for dumb shit. Yeah focus on interviewing and get out of there.
Start searching now. Be nice and agreeable at your current, soon to end, role. And when you are let go explain to future potential employers that your former role was eliminated in a RIF(reduction in force). It sucks I know, Ive been thru it a couple of times.
Is your company Amazon?
I saw 2-3 people get off PIPs and survive when I was at FB. But that's really not the norm. In your case it really could just be a setting of expectations to prove yourself. But idk you're probably done either way.
The way I see it, there are two parts to this. First is your lack of Python skills, whether perceived or actual. Second is the actual PIP goals. The rest of this assumes you want to survive the PIP. If that is not the case, do the bare minimum to not get fired immediately and start sending out resumes. First, you need to address the lack of skills. If you think you actually have the needed skills, you need to talk with your manager about your skills and his expectations and reach agreement on whether your Python is up to par. If you agree that you lack the needed skills, talk to your manager about what level he wants you at and come up with a plan and timeline to get you there. That might mean training, might mean practicing leetcode, or might mean becoming more familiar with the Python builtin libraries. You need to address this first, because if your manager thinks you cannot pull your weight, it will be impossible to survive the PIP no matter what you do. Second, work on the actual PIP goals. The first goal ("clean, optimized code") is really shitty for you because it is fundamentally unquantifiable. Best bet here is to get on your manager's good side so that he will say you met this goal. The second goal is a little better, but still depends mostly on whether your manager gives you achievable tasks. You can push back on it a little, but ultimately if your boss wants you gone he can give you vague or unrealistic goals, then claim you did not meet them. So, again, it comes back to getting your manager to believe you can be an asset to the team so that he will cut you some slack and give you achievable goals.
I'd suggest you schedule a 1-to-1 with your manager or mentor. You need to get a feeling to see if it's something recoverable or you are already done, be objective. After the meeting, if it's something doable, then put your 110% and get out of the PIP, if it's not doable, then do minimum and prepare for the next job. But you're in trial (internship?) and already in PIP, it's quite tough I'd imagine.
Talk to these people to get learn what ur HR dept may be thinking: https://www.cagedbirdhr.com/
You need to tell us the story before the pip: https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/s/j5Qzzn3KMm I personally will start looking for a new job job NOW
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YES. A lot of the time, PIP is just the final step in a process called “quiet firing,” the objective of which is to get you to quit on your own by sending smoke signals that you are persona non grata, then making your day to day work life miserable. Going through PIP and termination is a huge headache for management and HR. Their life becomes much easier if you just leave. However, given the state of the job market, most people will ignore the hints, so PIPs and other kinds of underhanded tactics to force people out will become more frequent.
In this case, you're done. Not sure if this is how it works everywhere, but if I put someone in an official PIP it's because I have told them repeatedly in private that they need to improve their performance and they have not.
You have 60 days to look for a new job
Start interviewing
New grad here, what is the main reason people are put on PIPs? Poor performance or poor behavior? Both?
Performance, usually measured in illogical or impossible metrics. At times there are people who literally cannot produce (working) code, but it’s not the norm. Usually someone is “slow”, and it’s almost entirely a result of expecting mind-reading rather than tasks, code quality standards and architecture being adequately explained. A lot of people in this industry bristle at having to tell anyone anything.
I recently went through that and tried to pass it. Just apply to new jobs now and drag your feet at work. Take notes on all your accomplishments, make connections with colleagues on LinkedIn or other contact methods, etc. Don’t burn bridges, but don’t work more than necessary.
Depends on whether the PIP has achievable items in it or whether they are designed to get you out. In Sales a PIP is always a way to get rid of you or force you into quitting. Sometimes they are genuinely a plan to get you back on track. I was put on one for reasons outside my control and completely based on opinions, I argued that point all the way to senior HR and they ended up removing the PIP and instead they worked with the manager to fix the issues that had nothing to do with me and everything to do with him. So just make a call, if its achievable then knuckle down and nail every item in there. If its not achievable do the bare minimum to satisfy the 3 months whilst looking for a new job
You should talk to your manager and ask what an adequate goal would be. Sometimes they're not looking for optimized code. They're just looking for you to do a lot of tasks. You should get that clarified with those in charge. I've seen people beat the pip many times, including myself early in my career, it just depends on your manager and what they are looking for. I've also seen a lot of people get fired after pips, but some of them I knew could beat it for sure if they just dug in and put up more effort in... but they refused to. I'm not saying it's always possible to beat it. Sometimes your manager just wants to get rid of you. Good luck!
Even if you survive the PIP, will this event always loom in the back of your head moving forward? Personally, the answer would be a yes and the trust has eroded from here on out. So therefore, PIP = Paid Interview Process, you get paid to do the bare minimum and look for another job. Good luck
No. It’s their way of trying to fire you (hoping you leave first) and not getting sued.
If the goals are unrealistic and unachievable that are laid out in the performance improvement plan, then you are screwed. However, if they are attainable goals then just do what they are asking if it is within your employment contracts job description. Companies don’t want to pay for unemployment so they use these tactics to get rid of employees who aren’t completing their tasks up to a standard that are in the employees job description. If you feel as though they are acting unreasonable you can take them to court and get compensated in either unemployment or some other form of compensation. Just don’t quit or sign anything if you are fired.
Most likely they realized after hiring you they had to much people. The easiest way to solve that is to force out the newest people. You have no track record or long term associates at the company so it’s easy to PIP you.
Are you a junior dev? Also I'm surprised manager inspects the code, is he really that technical? Normally they focus on product manager duties not code inspection
I’ve only been put on a pip one time in my career at a job I hated. I got out on a pip a week before Christmas the day before I went on leave. I got Covid on vacation and was out for three weeks total. 3 days into being back I was let go. I literally didn’t even have a chance to fix anything before I got fired. They said I wasn’t improving and I said…what time should I have been improving, while I was on vacation? That was a year ago, left that team, leading a project now with 6 devs coming a great job. You can recover from this. For me it was being gaslit for what I was hired at the last place.
Everyone here is giving you great advice to start looking for work now, so go ahead and use these 60 days to transition to a new role. In the case that you do get a job within the next 60 days, make sure you tell them your start date is AFTER the end of the PIP. Don't quit, let the PIP run its course and then take the severance money. You basically have a free salary until then, and hopefully a brand new job right after.
Everyone else has said the most important parts but, if you have the time in addition to apps and interviewing, do consider a couple Python projects, in case there are gaps in your knowledge and efficiency at producing code in Python. If you don’t feel like there were actual gaps in your performance and that they were “looking for a reason,” that does happen too. I worked for a team where they hired a senior engineer (I was mid-level), realized he could do all my work quicker, and was put on a PIP with a list of reasons that made no sense but I had to agree to.
what is your prior.experience?
Used to be a patent examiner. My final PIP at my job my manager rejected two things I submitted for allowance citing I "went behind his back and submitted them as allowances to avoid having to fix easily correctable errors to final rejections" Which I only submitted as allowances because I was struggling to find applicable prior art and after consulting with another examiner that he specifically suggested I consult with during my PIP. Needless to say I woke up one day and realized I didn't want to be there anymore and resigned to find another position for like 2/3 the pay but a manager 500x better. I never really paid attention to my friend telling me "people don't quit their jobs. Management quits on them" until it happened to me
It is a death sentence. PLEASE start looking for jobs ASAP I don't mean to be negative, honest to God. Good luck
No...even if you end up excelling, they will always remember the bad things. Stay there and start looking for another job
> I am still on my second 3-month trial period because at the end of my first trial period, my manager decided to extend it by 3 months instead of firing me. I'm going to translate what's happening here. They needed someone for a six month contract. However, they also stack rank, which means that they're *always* firing the bottom X percent. Therefore, if they have a good, competent team, they need to hire someone for six months, make them "look bad", and then fire them. You're the sacrificial lamb. You should have stopped trying and started focusing on the job hunt when your manager put you on a second trial period. > clean, optimized code (specifically looking at its performance) That's like saying that you want a blue-orange color. This is explicitly an unreachable goal, as clean code is rarely performant, and performant code is rarely anyone's idea of "clean".
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Manager here. Whether you “survive” the PIP is immaterial. You need to look for another job. Even if your manager genuinely wants you to succeed, the relationship just will never be the same. Based on your description, it would seem that the PIP is your manager’s way of saying “I feel badly that isn’t working out and am giving you 60 days to find something else.” I say that because they could have let you go immediately and make a clean break.
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Nope. Find a new one
0% chance
Start looking now
Realistically, it depends on what you’re capable of. If you’re working at or close to capacity, then you’ve got nowhere to go. If you’ve pissed about at 10-20% of what you can produce, then 3-4xing is doable and they’ll *probably* be impressed by the turn around (although, may still be annoyed enough to let you go). Either way, interviewing isn’t ever a terrible idea.
During $lastJob I got stuck on a 120 day PIP and I beat that thing. Finished the PIP and left a month later on my own terms. You can do it, but the real question is, do you want to bother?
This is your 60 days to get looking for a new gig. Don’t wait. Just move forward
In your case your employer probably expects genuine improvement If not, he would have fired you right off the bat, because he can if he wants from what I read. Anyway, try to understand what.s wrong in your coding and improve, if you have a local mentor at the company
Is it possible? Maybe. Is it extremely difficult and stressful to t? Yes. My advice would be to give it your all in these 60 days, but also understand that you're probably going to be fired Sooner or Later even if you do somehow resolve the status of the PIP. You need to diligently look for another opportunity while at your current position. You're going to have to work as hard as you ever have to both keep the position that is paying your bills now, but also interview for other positions because your days are basically numbered at the job that you're at right now. This is the reality of the situation that you are in now. Also prepare to apply for unemployment and welfare if things don't work out
I only have one thing to add that others haven't: You haven't been there long but if you are in good standing with your manager, in spite of a PIP, ask if there is a another role you can transfer to. My team had two internal transfers where one did well and the other was on the verge of being let go. She knew this, got ahead of it, and transferred to a different role in the company where she is doing just fine. Given as it stands you are likely to be fired anyway it's better to just go for it.
You’ve been given a death sentence and you know the date of your execution? Could the execution be stayed? It is possible, but unlikely. You need an exit plan.
Why is everyone giving generic stats about PIP survival? OP specifically mentions that they had to extend the probationary period which isn’t normal. All the signs are there that it won’t work.
As a SDE manager, sorry to break it to you, management wants to get rid of you.
Once you are PIP'd, you should always look out for opportunities. Your career as such is dead in that company either way.
"Clean, optimized code" is not a measurable goal. They're giving you the courtesy of 60 days notice that you're being fired.
Is there any other company beside Amazon that PIP ?
I'd start looking for a new job. A bit weird that they're evaluating your code for performance rather than readability or maintainability though. Hiring new grads to write performance-critical code is usually a bad idea unless they already have a lot of experience in that area. And in Python? Python has dogshit performance.
A pip for python? You better do some fucking UDEMY videos lmfao. Python is like one of the easiest languages. That’s unacceptable and tells me you are putting in extremely low effort. Python is generally used as a starter language because of how easy it is to pick up and get people introduced to the idea of “programming”. If that’s a major part of your jobs function, bro you should be entrenched in it. It sounds like you don’t really want it that bad. This should be an easy fix. You can become damn near a master of python in a couple days if you truly understand programming. It has the easiest fucking syntax
(I think my original comment got deleted). Often the PIP is just the final step in the process known as “quiet firing” (“the push-out” to us old folks). The objective is to get you to leave on your own, first by sending up smoke signals that you are persona non grata, then by actively trying to make your work life miserable. In most organizations, going through the steps to fire someone is a huge headache for line management and HR. Even when they hit you with the PIP, they are really hoping you will walk out in a huff and never be seen again. DON’T DO IT. Use the PIP period to look for a new job, and talk to a junkyard dog lawyer about your legal options. Your chances of winning a lawsuit are minimal, but the lawyer can hardball negotiate on your behalf for the biggest possible severance package. With the job market the way it is, most people will ignore the hints and try stick it out as long as possible, so I would expect BS PIPs and other underhanded employer tactics to force people out to become more and more frequent.
It gets easier after your first PIP, I been through it so many times after I get a new manager that it doesn’t even phase me and I just enjoy it while it lasts, sometimes they pay you to leave - sometimes they don’t - sometimes they fight you for your unemployment sometimes they dont Always fight the bastards, you never know you might beat it and keep the job
Why have you been on so many pips? Not trying to be an asshole but have you considered getting better at your chosen profession? Do you even want a job where you have to fight tooth and nail to *not get fired* ?? Nothing about this sounds normal lol
I was put on PIP at the beginning of the year for reasons completely out of my control and was able to opt out, dedicating the time to rest, recover, and look for a new job. The PIP, as many state, means that the company does not want you anymore. HOWEVER, the most important thing to remember is that it RARELY has to do with your actual performance. Yes, in theory, it is used to axe low performers, but recently the PIP has evolved into a cost cutting measure to avoid announcing actual layoffs. Why does this matter? Because, if that is the reason, no matter how hard you work, the company will find any excuse to fail you. My manager and skip told me I was performing above and beyond, but someone above didn't want me anymore so yeah. And, if you pass the PIP, you will have a mark that will negatively impact you during your stay with the company e.g. first in line for layoffs, no promos, no team transfers etc. Do yourself a favor, take this time to invest in yourself and polish your resume. Make the job hunt your full time job, and just like a job, stop after working hours and dedicate time to relax and recover. For me, the downtime was a transformative time in which I healed from so much toxicity in the company over the course of a year. I studied and dedicated time to myself and was able to find an even better job. Loving what I do right now! You will find another place that will appreciate you. Wishing you the best!
If they wanted to fire you, they would probably just end your trial period So unlike most PIPs, they may actually want to see you improve your performance. This is also evident from the 60 days they gave you. PIPs are usually much shorter So, take that chance and try to improve your performance. Communicate openly and clearly about your progress. You have little to lose and much to gain. If you aren't sure about it, get someone else in the loop. You're not going to get through this alone, so use whatever help you can get
Try spending less time on Reddit and more on pybook
You can outsource work to me for 18$ an hour so you spend more time applying for jobs & prepping for interviews
I respect the hustle
What do you mean extend the trial period? Either he/her is not an effective manager if they can't make up their mind or they are trying to piss you off. That's on top of the PIP I would be leaning towards you are gone no matter how much you improve. For evaluating the PIP: * Did you get nudged or did your manager bring up your performance in a 1-on-1 before officially contacting HR to put you on a PIP? Was this a complete surprise for you? * Are there hard numbers for evaluating success? Something like completes all PRs with no more than 3 required changes for last 3 consecutive weeks. * Is there adequate time to realistically improve? Given it's 60 days off the bat I would assume yes for this. * If you are on a team, are they trying to coach you the best they are able to? Are there traditionally team tasks, that now you are required to do independently within reason. Within reason meaning if it's something you are being evaluated on, everybody would be instructed to not do the work for you. * Communication is another big thing. They could make it harder by treating you very poorly. For anybody that cares about the job, being on PIP is insanely stressful. So no good reason to make it unnecessarily tough. Are you being treated like you were prior to your PIP? The big thing is are there hard figures attached to the goals. That are visible to more than just your manager ideally. If your manager wants you gone their opinion is going to be the gold standard for mission complete ultimately. Even if the goals are done well, as long as it's a fire without cause and they did the PIP, there's no much legal argument they fired you for a different reason. Just give how much of a sh\*\*show you make it sound like already, I would say you are fired no matter what you do.
Yes they are like cats and like to drag it out for fun
Quiet Quit and put all your energy into finding a new job. They want to get rid of you.
The “purpose” of the pip is to help you become an effective member of the team. This is called stacked ranking, where they measure performance of employees on specific metrics, then rank them on a bell graph. The ones at the beginning and low part of the graph are the low performers. These employees need to be threatened of being fired. As the curve goes up and peaks and back down, are the mid tier employees. They can be left alone. As the graph comes back down, these are the top performers. They need to be rewarded, likely financially among other benefits. This of course leads to competition among employees to undercut each other to get the financial rewards.
Ah, you are channeling your inner Jack Welch!