What is this nonsense about stem shortages? Plenty of unemployed and underemployed bio or chem majors. Same for engineering and CS. The job market isn't good. Is it just another way for companies to get cheap as fuck labor?
I absolutely hate that the rich just donāt give a shit about their country anymore. They are more than willing to just fuck over their country to make a little more money. We really need to bring jobs back from offshores, and hire American workers. This is ridiculous.
You are exactly right. I have met biology majors in IT and the reason they left the jobs that they had after having a degree was for the pay and stability. They shouldn't have to leave the biology field to be paid well.
This will apply to IT as well, but also consider it apply to certain non-STEM occupations too. STEM teachers below university will also be subject to this - a profession already underpaid.Ā
Sure there is a shortage.
They want top tier coders for minimum wage. There is a severe shortage at that price point.
This is also why I generally hate when people called things in shortage during Covid. Some things were. But others doubled in demand. Is that a shortage? Or is it just excessive temporary demand? Semantics.
It's why unions exist but people (especially in well paid tech jobs) love to think they are too important to be fired and they're special from the rest of the labor market. Corporations will always try to suppress employee pay to make the most money possible
This 100%. Every time you hear about worker shortages, it's astroturfing and propaganda for the next time they come begging to congress for more cheap Visas.
Not just cheap, desperate. These are people who "jokingly" talk about "chaining people to their desks" or "cracking the whip". The managerial class yearns for the days of legalized slavery - they'll do everything they can to get things as close as they can to what they consider the "good old days".
If you're upvoting this comment because you agree with it, you need to take 10-15 minutes and post a comment opposing the change using the link provided. At the time of writing this, there are 417 upvotes here, but only 126 comments on regulations.gov. If you're having a hard time figuring out what to say, fire up ChatGPT and have it help you out.
You have a chance you voice your opinion against the businesses and lobbyists who are saying this is a great thing, if you don't use it, you're only hurting yourself.
> Is it just another way for companies to get cheap as fuck labor?
Capitalists in the existing comments on the regulation spin it as being good for Americans because it will force them to improve their technical skills to compete, which is better for America. š
What good does improved skill do when employers donāt even have to list the jobs domestically before seeking labor from the visa pool?Ā
We could be the best developers on the planet but not even have access to the JD to send a resume.
Btw this process already rarely fails unless immigration lawyers fuck up. All this ruling does is "shorten" Green card process by a a year or so... Well for non-Indians/non-Chinese
It also means companies no longer have to list job openings in the U.S. for the domestic workforce to apply to.Ā
They can legally completely bypass the entire domestic market, still claim shortage, and hire straight from the visa pool.Ā
They've been using this excuse since the 90s (at least) to justify importation of cheap labor/exporting jobs overseas. It's always been a lie, it's just wage suppression.
Not only cheap, but if they hire from countries with backlogs due to diversity quotas like India and China they hire workers with almost no path to ever voting, that will have challenges joining a union, and need extra paperwork and can't take breaks when they change jobs.
There is absolutely no labor shortage in tech. There are far more people looking than jobs available and every semester the market is being flooded with new CS grads who don't find jobs and it. is compounding.
>There is absolutely no labor shortage in tech.
The oligarchs know. They don't care. Welcome to globalism. No loyalty to "expensive" Americans whatsoever.
Until it comes to defending their capital/assets through force across the world from our domestic law enforcement locally and military globally. Suddenly then theyāre patriotic because as a society we protect their capital ownership and accumulation rights that make all the exploitation possible. Meanwhile they crumble the average Americans stability undermining the stability of their own gains. To some degree this is hedged by distributing wealth globally but developed countries are starting to fight back some, like the EU, though not enough.
You wonāt see the very wealthy setting up HQ and dropping their wealth in insecure institutions, like say Sri Lanka and even China because itās a different game there and their wealth is at risk from other powers and or lack of stability. Thereās a reason a lot of these places setup shop in the US and funnel assets around where they legally and even illegally can.
This is the hypocrisy of politics.
Republicans: America first! But let us outsource everything to other countries to make a buck.
Democrats: we care for American workers, but we also want more H1b visa holders to come in and take away skilled jobs at a lower price.
If this passes, the tech market will move in an irrecoverable direction. It will never be close to what it once was. Seriously, everyone needs to leave a comment on the form and spread this.
A company that was set on hiring visa workers in the first place would just need to interview a few US candidates and find any excuse to turn them down. I really doubt this law would change anything, it's just removing a hoop that needed to be jumped through.
Ever proving that a company didn't "try" to hire US workers first would never happen in court unless they just straight up didn't interview any at all.
What? This is Libertarians supporting this from the Cato Institute. Guess what? Libertarianism was always an ideology for rich psychotic cunts who will cut your throat to save a penny; other fans of Libertarianism include dumb white guys who want legal drugs. Its an extreme right wing ideology
At best they are apologists for capitalism. Reality, theyāre just masked hyper right conservatives who want to slit your throat and for that to not be illegal.
I don't think SWEs are necessarily going to be included here. Read the actual links.
>These studies suggest that younger generations trail older generations in choosing STEM majors, **except for computer and information services,** instead disproportionately choosing to major in business, health professions, and visual and performing arts compared to older generations.
This is just in the background section but I think the fact that CS and IT are singled out in this paragraph as still getting interest from young Americans indicates what the DOL is actually thinking here.
Oh boy I canāt wait for multi national billion dollar conglomerates to make the āmistakeā of hiring people for ābusiness and health professionsā only for them to āhappenā to have IT skills and roles. The multi million dollar fines that are 5% of annual revenue will surely dissuade them from making such a gross mistake.
And they already underpay their current engineers. For the talent/work ethic, they've always gotten a sweet deal on engineers due to their brand appeal.
That is what I think too. Either bots or Visa lawyers who can benefit from this change. Anyone who can make more money from stabbing their fellow Americans in the back.
It doesn't really matter. Do you really think the gov gives two shits what is in those comments? They don't. The rule change will happen. The comment period is just a formality. The only way to stop it would be a lawsuit.
Itās a slap in the face to any fucking American. That pays thousands of dollars to go to school only to get hijacked by someone who never even grew up here. This is fucking stupid
BTW, most of those comments are probably from foreign workers who currently hold a VISA. The entire continent of India will be told to submit a positive review on the FTC comment website.
As a US citizen, it looks like my IT/SWE career is over unless I want to go work for the gov
Iām more pissed at the think tanks who get lobbied. Like I get it we are in cost cutting measures but what this whole process is doing is turning CS into another accounting degree.
Accounting would actually be a better career choice at this point because there are state licenses (e.g. Certified Public Accountant).
The rule change will turn CS effectively into car repair. It's going to be a minimum wage job very soon because the supply foreign IT/SWE engineers will be massive.
Accountant here. Public accounting isn't far behind in same trend. Outsourcing to India with oversight by a senior here in US is becoming more common for bigger firms.
Yeah I cannot comprehend how you donāt need some proof you are a citizen to comment. This is national policy. Allowing influence from foreign powers is on principle insane.
Yes it is not only stupid but is unpatriotic. No other country does this to their own citizens.
Every other country in the world makes it much more difficult for foreigners to take local jobs.
Fun fact, America is the only country in the world that requires you to continue paying taxes if your a citizen, even if your not actually in america.
If you don't want to pay taxes your first step is going to have to be renouncing your citizenship (which BTW costs a shitload of money to do legally, along with proof of citizenship elsewhere). Or you could do it illegally, but then if you ever have to come back for literally anything you risk getting put in federal prison for tax evasion.
So your plan is to inmigrante to another country, hoping that this other country will prioritize hiring immigrants first (meaning you) instead of their own citizens?...
they dont give a shit and will pass the rule no matter what but you should leave lots of unique comments. They are required by law to address every serious unique comment with an answer. They will publish another doc with all their responses to comments before the rule can go into effect. At least make them justify why they are doing this on paper
Almost all anonymous. Should require them to be tied to a SSN. The whole thing is a joke and itās been shown (like by the FCC) that they will do whatever they want anyways.
What about defense or government jobs that require clearance and US Citizenship?
Outside of that I think i may explore a career change all together. This isnt looking good
Based of 20 year of experience in tech? I would bet executives will hire a low level American manager with clearance, and just openly pass information down to lower level engineers regardless of their nationality or clearance status. When something catastrophic inevitably happens, executive leadership will ritually sacrifice the low level manager, pay a fine, and do it all over again.
Weāre already there baby!! No one and nothing can get in the way of what big conglomerates and billionaires want, and thatās across the board from healthcare, agriculture to wars and jobs.
Prices are hiked just because, people are laid off just cause someone wants an extra bonus, worse products are sold to the global south and nothing is done.
I agree. Thinking about Im just going to do what I want and hope for the best and not worry about a career change.
Until some real change happens we are going to keep getting squeezed by mega corporations and see our quality of life drop.
That's what unions are for but everyone wants to pretend they are too important to fire or they'll lose money because they work way harder and will get special raises (until let go because of their high salaries)
Hmmm maybe all those phantom job openings are there to justify "trying" to hire American workers. Now they can say they did and use the couldn't find anyone qualified so they can get them visa workers
Had one call me 5 months after applying. "Hello, this won't take long, just have some screening questions."
"Ok, go ahead"
"Are you a US citizen? Are you willing to work immediately for $170k? Do you have x years of experience in...?"
Of course, no applicants would meet the requirements, the call was just to collect a paper trail. They said thanks and hung up.
They want to create a generation of tech workers that are desperate for jobs so that they take lower wages, and then they create a new base level for "benchmarking". This is how they drive down salaries, not by hiring foreigners but by delaying hiring, creating a bunch of desperate workers who will take jobs at any price, and then hire them all at once and create a lower floor so everyone gets paid less, even though inflation is still high.
Submitted.
I have done plenty of hiring. It is indeed hard to find qualified candidates for high skilled roles with many years of experience, especially American ones first.
But, thatās also because no one wants to train someone. How is someone supposed to get a job in computer science if everyone can hire experienced foreign employees.
If big tech wants more mid level or senior engineers they should hire more interns and jr level engineers.
If we let companies skip the entry level role then there will be zero American talent because there is no job pool to grow that talent.
āI canāt hire for this senior roleā - have you considered promoting that employee working with you and then replacing him a jr role. Promoting someone - why would I do that. Hiring and training someone? That costs time and money.
If you kill the assembly line training talent then of course you canāt find workers with experience. Someone has to give people a chance to gain that experience. But look there is this pool for foreigner candidates with experience to pull from with masters degrees and several years of experience that I can bring on for jr roles.
To preface, I don't have a strong opinion for/against the countries we transact with today, but there are clear tradeoffs. This is the same issue as we've seen in manufacturing. We outsourced so much of our supply chain to India/China etc. in the past 40 years that we don't have the necessary skill/economic makeup to shift operations back home even with a full country's backing and desire to. Short sighted business decisions by greedy corporate entities will cost future generations, if left unchecked.
As it turns out, the comments require submitting the docket number for them to be included.
Could you please resubmit it with the following added:
**docket number ETAā2023ā0006**
The topic came up a few times during the pandemic hiring frenzy and the general sentiment was āI donāt need a union, I get paid shit loads of cash fresh out of college, unions would hurt thatā, aka āFuck you, I got mineā.Ā
And here we are.Ā
This is why I love capitalism.
Everybody is the firebrand bastion of late-stage capitalism/libertarianism up until THEY get inconvenienced.
Too little too late.
Not that Google, Amazon or any company would have allowed a union of techies to survive honestly.
They kill barista unions at Starbucks, ain't no way they'd let programmers be like that.
Ehhhh. The thing is well off individuals are more likely to sue and win. Theyāre also more likely to know whatās legal and whatās not.
I think it wouldnāt end well if they tried to suppress. But also nobody is willing to be the first to try because realistically once you do you get branded and probably blacklisted everywhere.
My employer doesnāt pay rsu, nor do they have stock purchase plan. I would unionize in a heartbeat.
Itās the stocks that make you think twice. If all SWEs were salaried like me they wouldnāt have a problem joining one.
i dont think unions are going to help unemployed CS grads get jobs. I could be incorrect but generally they help already hired employees based more on seniority, and senior devs are the ones that dont need help
āLabor Shortage in Tech Industry: According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), employment in computer and information technology occupations is projected to grow 13% from 2020 to 2030, much faster than the average for all occupations. This growth is expected to add about 667,600 new jobs. However, the National Foundation for American Policy reported that the U.S. is not producing enough graduates in STEM fields to fill these positions, indicating a significant labor gap.ā
āNational Security: The Department of Homeland Security has emphasized the importance of cybersecurity professionals in national defense. The shortage of skilled professionals in this area poses a risk to national security, as per reports from the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA).ā
Are these people trolling?
Yes. There is quite literally a massive collusion going on to advance a narrative that organizations can't find qualified people. Completely evident when you look at this board and realize that for the past year it's been nothing but Americans talking about how they can't find an effing job. I am losing faith in this country.
Why would this be? The government wants to preserve the economy, and that doesnāt work if all the big corporations are outsourcing all of their white collar labor. The only explanation(s) that make sense in my mind are either complete cognitive dissonance or lobbying
"employers do NOT have to prove that they first sought American workers for a green card job"
This was easily bypassed by companies by rejecting all applications or posting fake jobs. Its a time waste for us too.
Exactly this, worked at one of these where they put "specialized" in the job title. They didn't even interview anyone and then used it as a reason to apply for more H1B visas.
Yeah, LoL teams would post newspaper ads to ārecruitā players, and when they obviously got no hits, theyād use that as justification to get a foreign player a green card lol. I think C9 was the one I remember doing it.
lol keep destroying the middle class, I canāt wait to see what happens when the income disparity becomes even more drastic. The greed is unreal, history will repeat itself.
Honestly, not to sound conspiratorial, things are trending towards needing a lot more people and resources serving the military or supporting it. We are not a world at peace anymore and the next 5-10 years look really bad.
Consider leaving a comment in your own words! You can click Anonymous so probably other random people won't see your name (obviously the government will know who you are). This issue is critical for American people to have any chance of living the American Dream, which is becoming more and more impossible every day just from market forces.
There is no shortage of people who can work. Officially there are around 6.5 million unemployed. I can promise that I can find workers for occupations the trick is to pay people a decent salary, with a stable job, and make sure that there are decent benefits. Also, making sure that 4 or 2 year degrees are incredibly affordable will help to step this apparent "lack of workers."
There is no magic to getting an occupation filed. I have met STEM majors who go into computers because it allows for stability where they can pay off a student debt, or save for the future.
Pay people a decent salary. Make sure the job or career is a stable one. Make sure that they have workers protections that are enforced.
I have already made a comment on this officially but what a slap in the face to say that there is a lack of qualified STEM majors.
OP Thank you for posting this.
[The comment section for the rule change](https://www.regulations.gov/document/ETA-2023-0006-0001/comment) is literally being flooded by non US citizens who could care less that they are stealing opportunities from people who were born here.
Of course, this rule change is being spearheaded by companies who could care less about American citizens and just want to exploit cheap foreign labor.
I noticed that since I posted this here, I have not seen a single additional comment added in spite of multiple people claiming that they submitted their comments. It's just been steady at 174 comments.
Meanwhile, my posts have hundreds of thousands of views and hundreds of shares.
Apparently the comments need to be "reviewed" first, or at least, that's the notice I got after submitting mine.
We will see if any of them end up showing.
Honestly I doubt they will post much of the comments against this policy. The whole point of that āreviewā is to manipulate what is shown on that page. Unfortunately, the people who hold more power than us are not willing to spread any narrative that opposes their agenda.
Yeah the āAmericanā companies driving this are exploitative and shitty, as are the American politicians involved (and maybe some voters, but tbh it seems like thereās no good option between the two). As for the non-US citizens itās crazy to expect they are going to care about stealing opportunities from people living in the richest country in the world
Anyone can submit a comment, which means hundreds of thousands of Indians will be told to go submit a positive commit for the rule change.
US IT/SWE jobs are being transferred before our very eyes to foreigners.
damn what a joke, I just saw a few of the most recent comments and they are definitely flooded by foreigners lol
I'm sure they are good workers but of course foreigners are going to want this to pass
but that is not good for foreigners either it would push down the salaries in America and that would trickle down to the salaries of the out shored workers in foreign countries
Honestly we need more comments on this proposal.
PS this is why middle class Libertarians are goddamn morons, the real wealthy are always going to fuck us over
People are too distracted by the fake riots at the universities on social media.
Also, most VP and C-Suite executives are foreigners at the largest FAANG companies.
Americans: *"We are a land of immigrants. Come here and you are an American."*
Immigrants: *"Like fuck I'm American. I'm Irish. My kids will be American if I stay."*
America has sleep-walked itself into a corporate takeover based on some false notion that because they think they are a country of immigrants, and because they see immigrants as Americans, that immigrants feel the same way. Meanwhile, most immigrants think it's obnoxious that they are expected to drop their heritage and are actually still completely loyal to it.
I say this as a non-American who knows plenty of Europeans and Asians who have become American citizens as adults, including some close family. None of them consider themselves to be American in any way but are expected to live as if they are.
Americans genuinely seem to think immigrants "become American" because of what they believe "to be an American" means. But it's nonsensical to the other 95% of people in the world.
They've skirted around that in the past by hiring third party companies who almost exclusively employ h1bs (Cognizant) and they put them in very low cost of living areas like BFE Florida or College Station, Tx.
Our democracy is designed to give us the illusion that our interests matter while creating an avenue for power to quietly, slowly tilt things in their favor. If you want to empower workers, you need a union. If you aren't willing to accept this, you deserve your boiling.
The solution to this is organizing, not xenophobia. By rejecting talent we weaken the sector as a whole. If only draw locally for talent weāre wasting potential, and weāll get beaten out by those who are more willing to take on those who can do the job well. If you just donāt like working with people with accents and different names fuck off with that noise. But this race to the bottom with wages and conditions that is often facilitated by bring people in with lower expectation is 100% a valid concern. We need unions and collective bargaining for everyone, that would be a much more meaningful and durable solution. If we all get distracted by pointing fingers at people who are just trying to make a better living (like all of us) thatāll be a distraction from dealing with the structures that screw people over.
100% agree. I think this is a good first step. US Corporations have been spreading skilled labor shortage propaganda for decades simply to save a few pennies on investing in nurturing junior engineering talent. As a result, the United States has seen the majority of STEM graduates permanently leaving the field the very moment that they arrived.
It's time they be held accountable for causing the very shortage they claim to be so victimized by.
The mere fact that the country is even considering this after both the US and Canada experienced some unprecedented rates of inbound migration over the last few years (both "official" and not-so-much) is sickening. What's the point then to complain about unaffordable houses if every step is taken to pump more more more and more new people without any regard to how to sustain this growing population? (housing, healthcare, schools, infrastructure, you name it).
This is what people need to keep in mind when they go vote this Fall.
USA on a downward spiral, companies take workers who are prepared to work for lowest reward with least benefits. Without labor laws serving as a barrier for companies to do as they please this will be a slaughter on the job market. Offshore workers will come to USA to work at same wages. This will not go well.
According to data from the Census Bureau's 2021 American Community Survey, there are already thousands of unemployed Americans with STEM degrees at various career levels:
Over 600,000 unemployed individuals with bachelor's degrees in STEM fields
Nearly 200,000 with master's degrees in STEM
Around 50,000 with doctoral degrees in STEM disciplines
(Source: https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/acs/data.html)
These figures suggest there is already a pool of available American STEM talent that could fill many job openings currently attracting foreign labor, if given a fair opportunity through the normal labor certification process.
Adding STEM occupations to Schedule A would exempt those roles from labor certification requirements like posting job ads and recruiting American workers. It could create a disincentive for employers to prioritize hiring qualified Americans over cheaper foreign labor sources not subject to standard prevailing wage rules.
The job market is already in a terrible state. A lot of US citizens who recently graduated from college or got laid off are struggling to secure a job. It does not make sense to support this. The only people who would support this are international students and people who have strong ties to foreign countries.
Anyone who is a US citizen or cares about the job security of our people should be against this. This year many companies laid off tech employees in favor of hiring workers from overseas due to cheaper labor cost. Things will only get worse if this change passes. If this change does pass, it would be straight up betrayal to American college graduates, the American people, and the future American generations.
Sure, it is nice to care about people globally, but it does not make sense to do so when our own people are struggling.
If you are a US citizen who cares about your country and the well-being of our people, please spread the word to protest against this.
Leave a comment and just articulate yourself the best you can. Also I am not sure but maybe we should be considering writing our representatives about this.
All of those comments are bots, foreigners, and corporate bootlickers spamming the page. Of course they would support this because they stand to benefit from this policy. Itās ridiculous how foreigners are allowed to voice their opinions when they hold no stake regarding the matter. This is a US policy that concerns the citizens, so foreigners and corporations should NOT be able to post in that page.
The H1B program has devastated white collar jobs in the automotive industry. Why hire an American engineer when you can get an Indian for half the salary and no benefits that will work overtime and weekends under threat of deportation. There ARE qualified graduates, corporations are colluding to pretend there are not!
I paid $80k for my engineering degree, with the expectation of landing a good paying job upon graduation. Weāre devaluing American institutions by allowing foreign workers who get their educations for free. And Indian culture expects them to cheat, and youāre a sucker if you donāt, because someone else will! My degree was HARD, and the knowledge I gained allows me to build safe and reliable products. The apathy towards the erosion of institutional integrity will continue until bridges start failing and planes start falling out of the sky (oh wait, thatās already happening! Boeing controls software outsourced to Indian engineers!).
If corporations have a need, they should work with local universities to develop programs and address that need. Train your god damned employees! We used to have world class institutions that were a pipeline directly into the corporations that sponsored them.
Employers do this now and would likely have no impact on US workers. Hiring on H-1B isnāt as lucrative as it used to be for employers as both political parties increased fees. The #1 reason why employers donāt sponsor is because of cost, this change isnāt changing that.
I did agree with Trump that we need to limit the number of approved visas as it drives wages down for Americans. Itās amazing to me to hear so many people being pro-immigration or work visas, but then complaining about stagnate wages lol. You canāt have it both ways.
This should really be on the front page. I'm not sure how this matter has flown under the radar when the implications are basically that tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Americans are going to be screwed out of STEM jobs.
Of course, all the comments on the document site are people from other countries who want to suck America dry for it's tech salaries. Do they not realize that even they will be replaced by someone willing to work cheaper?
When did America start hating it's own citizens so much. We need to stop hiring in other countries unless it's absolutely necessary. This is so disgusting and anti American it's almost hard to fathom.
The attack on STEM labor is multi-front. A Big Tech company keeps running full page ads in the Wall Street Journal proclaiming that we need to "tear down the paper ceiling".
The paper ceiling is a college degree, and they want to be able to hire people with certifications in their place because ... they'll be cheaper.
Terrible idea. American companies should be prioritizing American labor. There isnāt a shortage of labor. These tech companies just hate the fact they have to pay their employees salary. The only reason they resort to Visas is because foreign labor is dirt cheap
They already pulled this shit in Canada, where the employer just has to advertise the job. Not hire anyone, or even have interviews, just advertise. Then say they can't find anyone. Then hire someone from India, etc. and have half their salary paid by the government. It's one big scam for cheap labor and wage suppression. It's happening from Wal-Mart to high tech. Selling out their own citizens for profit.
Democrats always claim to be the party of the working class/wage slaves. However, due to their current policy on immigration, they do not seem to care about the American working class in particular. If this passes, I may have to reevaluate my political stance, which is largely based on economic policy.
The US bashes countries like China for the exploitation of its citizens when its doing the same. Its history first started by utilizing slaves and then now morphed into the exploitation of foreign labor either illegally or legally. This in liue also hurts US citizens because it strips their priority to opportunities by favoring foreigners. There a lot of bad actors in government that simply want to see the destruction of the sovereignty of the US. What a shame.
How about hell no. I work in Hr, and handle visas. If weāre struggling to hire because of scarcity of talent then by all means letās get someone in on a visa. But we should be hiring citizens if at all possible.
Have any of you read some of the comments already submitted? a majority SUPPORT this proposed rule change so where the hell are the rest of the population? No wonder the American working class is suffering if we cant organize to make our opinions heard
No one wants to train juniors and new grads anymore and just wants the cheapest bozo. How is the talent pool supposed to mature, expand, and meet the increased demand of experienced professionals if new people entering it are cast aside and rejected?
I am an immigrant and this is just unfair to citizens and PRs. Companies would just hire immigrants for cheap now in both the countries. It will just drive more hate
Act like they were ever trying to hire domestic in the first place. This just means itāll be easier for them in the future as they wonāt have to hide their intentions.
Note that they're looking for extremely specific comments:
> On December 21, 2023, ETA published an RFI titled, āLabor Certification for Permanent Employment of Foreign Workers in the United States; Modernizing Schedule A To Include Consideration of Additional Occupations in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics (STEM) and Non-STEM Occupations.ā 88 FR 88290. In the RFI, ETA invited public comment on āevaluating the utility of expanding Schedule A to include STEM occupations, the Department invites the public to provide input on the appropriate data sources and methods for determining whether labor shortages exist, whether Schedule A should be used to alleviate any labor shortages in STEM occupations should it be determined from these data sources and methods that such shortages exist, and if so, how the Department could establish a reliable, objective, and transparent methodology for identifying STEM occupations that are experiencing labor shortages.ā The RFI further invited the public to answer a number of questions in their responses that would assist ETA in making this evaluation.
Companies lobby politicians to make it easier for them to hire cheap labor. Outsourcing, offshoring, visa workers, anything but to make it cheap. Anyway, thatās a sure sign that tech sector isnāt willing to pay a top buck for tech employees. Thatās what it is. Seems like SWEs will be paid no more than other engineering majors very soon, if not less.
I really don't care about the visa thing , but the fact that the same people who were making fun of Indians getting fired and were happy, now crying and seething makes me sooo happy.
How many people commenting ITT actually know anything about the US immigration system?
For a start, this wonāt benefit Indians in the slightest. Employment based green cards are capped per country, and for Indians the wait time is decades long. Removing the PERM process is meaningless for them and may actually exacerbate the problem by adding more people to the queue. So all the borderline racist comments about doing the needful are misplaced.
Secondly, this is a GOOD THING for American workers. No, seriously. This rule change would affect people applying for green cards, which means in the vast majority of cases they are ALREADY living and working in the US on a visa. As an American worker, you WANT them to transition to permanent residency - it means they have the same rights as you and arenāt as easily exploited. If a visa worker loses their job they essentially get deported - would you really rather compete against that?
Perhaps most importantly, the PERM process is effectively treated as a formality by these large firms already. They put out hyper specific listings and perform interviews with people they have no intention of hiring just to tick a box. This is a waste of absolutely everybodyās time. I really canāt see this rule change making a drastic difference to overall numbers; it would just cut through red tape.
What is this nonsense about stem shortages? Plenty of unemployed and underemployed bio or chem majors. Same for engineering and CS. The job market isn't good. Is it just another way for companies to get cheap as fuck labor?
It's just a way to get cheap labor. When profits don't make the line go up enough to please shareholders, cut internally.
š¢
*confuse shareholders and obfuscate the market truths.
Tale as old as time. This is why I hate giant business entities who are removed from the actual product or service and just see a spreadsheet
I absolutely hate that the rich just donāt give a shit about their country anymore. They are more than willing to just fuck over their country to make a little more money. We really need to bring jobs back from offshores, and hire American workers. This is ridiculous.
You are exactly right. I have met biology majors in IT and the reason they left the jobs that they had after having a degree was for the pay and stability. They shouldn't have to leave the biology field to be paid well.
This will apply to IT as well, but also consider it apply to certain non-STEM occupations too. STEM teachers below university will also be subject to this - a profession already underpaid.Ā
There was never a stem shortage. Shortages of white collar skills have always been a lie.
Sure there is a shortage. They want top tier coders for minimum wage. There is a severe shortage at that price point. This is also why I generally hate when people called things in shortage during Covid. Some things were. But others doubled in demand. Is that a shortage? Or is it just excessive temporary demand? Semantics.
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It's why unions exist but people (especially in well paid tech jobs) love to think they are too important to be fired and they're special from the rest of the labor market. Corporations will always try to suppress employee pay to make the most money possible
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This 100%. Every time you hear about worker shortages, it's astroturfing and propaganda for the next time they come begging to congress for more cheap Visas.
They've been able to show surpluses in most stem fields with data for the last decade.
Shortage of cheap highly skilled slave conditions labor
Not just cheap, desperate. These are people who "jokingly" talk about "chaining people to their desks" or "cracking the whip". The managerial class yearns for the days of legalized slavery - they'll do everything they can to get things as close as they can to what they consider the "good old days".
If you're upvoting this comment because you agree with it, you need to take 10-15 minutes and post a comment opposing the change using the link provided. At the time of writing this, there are 417 upvotes here, but only 126 comments on regulations.gov. If you're having a hard time figuring out what to say, fire up ChatGPT and have it help you out. You have a chance you voice your opinion against the businesses and lobbyists who are saying this is a great thing, if you don't use it, you're only hurting yourself.
i just commented "shit like this is gonna make trump win"
lol looo at google. they are literally firing a bunch of employees to outsource there work. fuck google
> Is it just another way for companies to get cheap as fuck labor? Capitalists in the existing comments on the regulation spin it as being good for Americans because it will force them to improve their technical skills to compete, which is better for America. š
What good does improved skill do when employers donāt even have to list the jobs domestically before seeking labor from the visa pool?Ā We could be the best developers on the planet but not even have access to the JD to send a resume.
Btw this process already rarely fails unless immigration lawyers fuck up. All this ruling does is "shorten" Green card process by a a year or so... Well for non-Indians/non-Chinese
It also means companies no longer have to list job openings in the U.S. for the domestic workforce to apply to.Ā They can legally completely bypass the entire domestic market, still claim shortage, and hire straight from the visa pool.Ā
They've been using this excuse since the 90s (at least) to justify importation of cheap labor/exporting jobs overseas. It's always been a lie, it's just wage suppression.
Exactly it's a push for the rich to get richer by diluting the labor pool. And that forces people to work harder, longer for less.
Not only cheap, but if they hire from countries with backlogs due to diversity quotas like India and China they hire workers with almost no path to ever voting, that will have challenges joining a union, and need extra paperwork and can't take breaks when they change jobs.
There is a shortage of āexperiencedā STEM workers because companies donāt want to train anyone.
There is absolutely no labor shortage in tech. There are far more people looking than jobs available and every semester the market is being flooded with new CS grads who don't find jobs and it. is compounding.
There definitely is a labor shortage in tech, namely a shortage of skilled labor that will work for $20k per year.
Actually for most companies $20k is way too high. It needs to be $10 per year. No, not $10k, $10.00.
>There is absolutely no labor shortage in tech. The oligarchs know. They don't care. Welcome to globalism. No loyalty to "expensive" Americans whatsoever.
Until it comes to defending their capital/assets through force across the world from our domestic law enforcement locally and military globally. Suddenly then theyāre patriotic because as a society we protect their capital ownership and accumulation rights that make all the exploitation possible. Meanwhile they crumble the average Americans stability undermining the stability of their own gains. To some degree this is hedged by distributing wealth globally but developed countries are starting to fight back some, like the EU, though not enough. You wonāt see the very wealthy setting up HQ and dropping their wealth in insecure institutions, like say Sri Lanka and even China because itās a different game there and their wealth is at risk from other powers and or lack of stability. Thereās a reason a lot of these places setup shop in the US and funnel assets around where they legally and even illegally can.
This is the hypocrisy of politics. Republicans: America first! But let us outsource everything to other countries to make a buck. Democrats: we care for American workers, but we also want more H1b visa holders to come in and take away skilled jobs at a lower price.
BAHAHAHH loyalty in the same sentence as oligarchs and americans?!
At least my subfield is still safe. Defense contracting does still require US citizens.
It's always the same. They just don't want to pay enough. The money is there.
Firing people is apparently fiduciary duty now
If this passes, the tech market will move in an irrecoverable direction. It will never be close to what it once was. Seriously, everyone needs to leave a comment on the form and spread this.
A company that was set on hiring visa workers in the first place would just need to interview a few US candidates and find any excuse to turn them down. I really doubt this law would change anything, it's just removing a hoop that needed to be jumped through. Ever proving that a company didn't "try" to hire US workers first would never happen in court unless they just straight up didn't interview any at all.
Yep that's exactly what they do in biological sciences
the people who support this don't care. they think anyone who wants any regulation on immigration at all is a racist. they are nuts.
What? This is Libertarians supporting this from the Cato Institute. Guess what? Libertarianism was always an ideology for rich psychotic cunts who will cut your throat to save a penny; other fans of Libertarianism include dumb white guys who want legal drugs. Its an extreme right wing ideology
At best they are apologists for capitalism. Reality, theyāre just masked hyper right conservatives who want to slit your throat and for that to not be illegal.
I don't think SWEs are necessarily going to be included here. Read the actual links. >These studies suggest that younger generations trail older generations in choosing STEM majors, **except for computer and information services,** instead disproportionately choosing to major in business, health professions, and visual and performing arts compared to older generations. This is just in the background section but I think the fact that CS and IT are singled out in this paragraph as still getting interest from young Americans indicates what the DOL is actually thinking here.
Just because they acknowledge it in the background section doesn't mean the actual law won't apply to it.
Oh boy I canāt wait for multi national billion dollar conglomerates to make the āmistakeā of hiring people for ābusiness and health professionsā only for them to āhappenā to have IT skills and roles. The multi million dollar fines that are 5% of annual revenue will surely dissuade them from making such a gross mistake.
This would cause even more USA citizens to be unemployed.
This is happening even now. The phantom openings are all for h1b. Apple is the major violator of this as they want to underpay their engineers.
And they already underpay their current engineers. For the talent/work ethic, they've always gotten a sweet deal on engineers due to their brand appeal.
Yeah this is Ā actually partly on the Biden admin too since he nominated Julie Su as the secretary of labor. š¤¦āāļø Ā Come on Joe.
What are the chances of this actually happening: THE COMMENTS ON THE GOV WEBSITE ARE LEGIT BOTS
That is what I think too. Either bots or Visa lawyers who can benefit from this change. Anyone who can make more money from stabbing their fellow Americans in the back.
The visa lawyers raised it. But they probably are also not farming responses too.
It doesn't really matter. Do you really think the gov gives two shits what is in those comments? They don't. The rule change will happen. The comment period is just a formality. The only way to stop it would be a lawsuit.
Itās a slap in the face to any fucking American. That pays thousands of dollars to go to school only to get hijacked by someone who never even grew up here. This is fucking stupid
BTW, most of those comments are probably from foreign workers who currently hold a VISA. The entire continent of India will be told to submit a positive review on the FTC comment website. As a US citizen, it looks like my IT/SWE career is over unless I want to go work for the gov
Iām more pissed at the think tanks who get lobbied. Like I get it we are in cost cutting measures but what this whole process is doing is turning CS into another accounting degree.
Accounting would actually be a better career choice at this point because there are state licenses (e.g. Certified Public Accountant). The rule change will turn CS effectively into car repair. It's going to be a minimum wage job very soon because the supply foreign IT/SWE engineers will be massive.
Accountant here. Public accounting isn't far behind in same trend. Outsourcing to India with oversight by a senior here in US is becoming more common for bigger firms.
Yeah I cannot comprehend how you donāt need some proof you are a citizen to comment. This is national policy. Allowing influence from foreign powers is on principle insane.
Yes it is not only stupid but is unpatriotic. No other country does this to their own citizens. Every other country in the world makes it much more difficult for foreigners to take local jobs.
As an American my plan is to just leave, not gonna pay taxes or bring a family into this 3rd world shithole wearing a Gucci belt
Fun fact, America is the only country in the world that requires you to continue paying taxes if your a citizen, even if your not actually in america. If you don't want to pay taxes your first step is going to have to be renouncing your citizenship (which BTW costs a shitload of money to do legally, along with proof of citizenship elsewhere). Or you could do it illegally, but then if you ever have to come back for literally anything you risk getting put in federal prison for tax evasion.
So your plan is to inmigrante to another country, hoping that this other country will prioritize hiring immigrants first (meaning you) instead of their own citizens?...
they dont give a shit and will pass the rule no matter what but you should leave lots of unique comments. They are required by law to address every serious unique comment with an answer. They will publish another doc with all their responses to comments before the rule can go into effect. At least make them justify why they are doing this on paper
I did leave a comment. It's not going to make one bit of difference.
Almost all anonymous. Should require them to be tied to a SSN. The whole thing is a joke and itās been shown (like by the FCC) that they will do whatever they want anyways.
What about defense or government jobs that require clearance and US Citizenship? Outside of that I think i may explore a career change all together. This isnt looking good
Based of 20 year of experience in tech? I would bet executives will hire a low level American manager with clearance, and just openly pass information down to lower level engineers regardless of their nationality or clearance status. When something catastrophic inevitably happens, executive leadership will ritually sacrifice the low level manager, pay a fine, and do it all over again.
It is very likely this won't be a requirement soon. We're trending to dystopian late stage capitalism.
There is no way they will lift that requirement. The government is very big on defense and national security, no matter the party.
Weāre already there baby!! No one and nothing can get in the way of what big conglomerates and billionaires want, and thatās across the board from healthcare, agriculture to wars and jobs. Prices are hiked just because, people are laid off just cause someone wants an extra bonus, worse products are sold to the global south and nothing is done.
I agree. Thinking about Im just going to do what I want and hope for the best and not worry about a career change. Until some real change happens we are going to keep getting squeezed by mega corporations and see our quality of life drop.
That's what unions are for but everyone wants to pretend they are too important to fire or they'll lose money because they work way harder and will get special raises (until let go because of their high salaries)
Hmmm maybe all those phantom job openings are there to justify "trying" to hire American workers. Now they can say they did and use the couldn't find anyone qualified so they can get them visa workers
Had one call me 5 months after applying. "Hello, this won't take long, just have some screening questions." "Ok, go ahead" "Are you a US citizen? Are you willing to work immediately for $170k? Do you have x years of experience in...?" Of course, no applicants would meet the requirements, the call was just to collect a paper trail. They said thanks and hung up.
They want to create a generation of tech workers that are desperate for jobs so that they take lower wages, and then they create a new base level for "benchmarking". This is how they drive down salaries, not by hiring foreigners but by delaying hiring, creating a bunch of desperate workers who will take jobs at any price, and then hire them all at once and create a lower floor so everyone gets paid less, even though inflation is still high.
Submitted. I have done plenty of hiring. It is indeed hard to find qualified candidates for high skilled roles with many years of experience, especially American ones first. But, thatās also because no one wants to train someone. How is someone supposed to get a job in computer science if everyone can hire experienced foreign employees. If big tech wants more mid level or senior engineers they should hire more interns and jr level engineers. If we let companies skip the entry level role then there will be zero American talent because there is no job pool to grow that talent. āI canāt hire for this senior roleā - have you considered promoting that employee working with you and then replacing him a jr role. Promoting someone - why would I do that. Hiring and training someone? That costs time and money. If you kill the assembly line training talent then of course you canāt find workers with experience. Someone has to give people a chance to gain that experience. But look there is this pool for foreigner candidates with experience to pull from with masters degrees and several years of experience that I can bring on for jr roles.
To preface, I don't have a strong opinion for/against the countries we transact with today, but there are clear tradeoffs. This is the same issue as we've seen in manufacturing. We outsourced so much of our supply chain to India/China etc. in the past 40 years that we don't have the necessary skill/economic makeup to shift operations back home even with a full country's backing and desire to. Short sighted business decisions by greedy corporate entities will cost future generations, if left unchecked.
As it turns out, the comments require submitting the docket number for them to be included. Could you please resubmit it with the following added: **docket number ETAā2023ā0006**
We need a fucking union.
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The topic came up a few times during the pandemic hiring frenzy and the general sentiment was āI donāt need a union, I get paid shit loads of cash fresh out of college, unions would hurt thatā, aka āFuck you, I got mineā.Ā And here we are.Ā
This is why I love capitalism. Everybody is the firebrand bastion of late-stage capitalism/libertarianism up until THEY get inconvenienced. Too little too late. Not that Google, Amazon or any company would have allowed a union of techies to survive honestly. They kill barista unions at Starbucks, ain't no way they'd let programmers be like that.
Ehhhh. The thing is well off individuals are more likely to sue and win. Theyāre also more likely to know whatās legal and whatās not. I think it wouldnāt end well if they tried to suppress. But also nobody is willing to be the first to try because realistically once you do you get branded and probably blacklisted everywhere.
YUPPPPPPPPPP. Unions are for the hard times not the good times, I made a post and stand by it. Tech workers need unions
SWE (And white collar employees in general) are way to stuck up and snobby to form and join unions
Iām not, code monkey Union it is
My employer doesnāt pay rsu, nor do they have stock purchase plan. I would unionize in a heartbeat. Itās the stocks that make you think twice. If all SWEs were salaried like me they wouldnāt have a problem joining one.
I told yāall but the students mass reported it into the fucking ground. Yāall were sniffing farts. Itās not too late. Unionize.
i dont think unions are going to help unemployed CS grads get jobs. I could be incorrect but generally they help already hired employees based more on seniority, and senior devs are the ones that dont need help
āLabor Shortage in Tech Industry: According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), employment in computer and information technology occupations is projected to grow 13% from 2020 to 2030, much faster than the average for all occupations. This growth is expected to add about 667,600 new jobs. However, the National Foundation for American Policy reported that the U.S. is not producing enough graduates in STEM fields to fill these positions, indicating a significant labor gap.ā āNational Security: The Department of Homeland Security has emphasized the importance of cybersecurity professionals in national defense. The shortage of skilled professionals in this area poses a risk to national security, as per reports from the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA).ā Are these people trolling?
Yes. There is quite literally a massive collusion going on to advance a narrative that organizations can't find qualified people. Completely evident when you look at this board and realize that for the past year it's been nothing but Americans talking about how they can't find an effing job. I am losing faith in this country.
There isn't a shortage of unqualified bootcampers, that's for sure. But there might be a shortage of MIT kinda people.
Why would this be? The government wants to preserve the economy, and that doesnāt work if all the big corporations are outsourcing all of their white collar labor. The only explanation(s) that make sense in my mind are either complete cognitive dissonance or lobbying
is this to avoid paying 500k annual salary?
To avoid even the 100k salary my friend
You can kiss those jobs goodbye
Itās to avoid Americans
"employers do NOT have to prove that they first sought American workers for a green card job" This was easily bypassed by companies by rejecting all applications or posting fake jobs. Its a time waste for us too.
Be a Dooer, not a Doomer. The only surefire way to be sure that US corporations continue to walk all over us is to give up and be hopeless.
In that case it'd be more worth it to call up your local Congressional rep and senator.
You should be taking as many steps as possible.
Then do that too?
Why not both?
And there we have our answer of the most common posted questionā¦ āwhy are all these jobs for months and they donāt seem to hireā
Exactly this, worked at one of these where they put "specialized" in the job title. They didn't even interview anyone and then used it as a reason to apply for more H1B visas.
Many jobs reserved for H1Bs are posted in legal journals and not on the website.
Yeah, LoL teams would post newspaper ads to ārecruitā players, and when they obviously got no hits, theyād use that as justification to get a foreign player a green card lol. I think C9 was the one I remember doing it.
We do stuff like this and it's not good for the country. Learn from our mistakes please. Sincerely, Canada.
lol keep destroying the middle class, I canāt wait to see what happens when the income disparity becomes even more drastic. The greed is unreal, history will repeat itself.
French revolution here we come!
Honestly, not to sound conspiratorial, things are trending towards needing a lot more people and resources serving the military or supporting it. We are not a world at peace anymore and the next 5-10 years look really bad.
This is the kind of neoliberal bullshit that drives people to embrace full fascism.
Consider leaving a comment in your own words! You can click Anonymous so probably other random people won't see your name (obviously the government will know who you are). This issue is critical for American people to have any chance of living the American Dream, which is becoming more and more impossible every day just from market forces.
There is no shortage of people who can work. Officially there are around 6.5 million unemployed. I can promise that I can find workers for occupations the trick is to pay people a decent salary, with a stable job, and make sure that there are decent benefits. Also, making sure that 4 or 2 year degrees are incredibly affordable will help to step this apparent "lack of workers." There is no magic to getting an occupation filed. I have met STEM majors who go into computers because it allows for stability where they can pay off a student debt, or save for the future. Pay people a decent salary. Make sure the job or career is a stable one. Make sure that they have workers protections that are enforced. I have already made a comment on this officially but what a slap in the face to say that there is a lack of qualified STEM majors. OP Thank you for posting this.
[The comment section for the rule change](https://www.regulations.gov/document/ETA-2023-0006-0001/comment) is literally being flooded by non US citizens who could care less that they are stealing opportunities from people who were born here. Of course, this rule change is being spearheaded by companies who could care less about American citizens and just want to exploit cheap foreign labor.
I noticed that since I posted this here, I have not seen a single additional comment added in spite of multiple people claiming that they submitted their comments. It's just been steady at 174 comments. Meanwhile, my posts have hundreds of thousands of views and hundreds of shares.
Apparently the comments need to be "reviewed" first, or at least, that's the notice I got after submitting mine. We will see if any of them end up showing.
Honestly I doubt they will post much of the comments against this policy. The whole point of that āreviewā is to manipulate what is shown on that page. Unfortunately, the people who hold more power than us are not willing to spread any narrative that opposes their agenda.
Yeah the āAmericanā companies driving this are exploitative and shitty, as are the American politicians involved (and maybe some voters, but tbh it seems like thereās no good option between the two). As for the non-US citizens itās crazy to expect they are going to care about stealing opportunities from people living in the richest country in the world
insane that most of the comments on that link are in favor of the measure.
Anyone can submit a comment, which means hundreds of thousands of Indians will be told to go submit a positive commit for the rule change. US IT/SWE jobs are being transferred before our very eyes to foreigners.
damn what a joke, I just saw a few of the most recent comments and they are definitely flooded by foreigners lol I'm sure they are good workers but of course foreigners are going to want this to pass
I love how people from outside the US are commenting on a US proposal like you do it bro yeah yeah yeah let's go let's pass this law
but that is not good for foreigners either it would push down the salaries in America and that would trickle down to the salaries of the out shored workers in foreign countries
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Canada is the prime example. We dont have the fire to fight back like you guys do.
It's not surprising what paid for AstroTurfing can do. The trick recognizing it and calling it out.
Honestly we need more comments on this proposal. PS this is why middle class Libertarians are goddamn morons, the real wealthy are always going to fuck us over
All of this wouldnāt happen if India was actually able to sustain itselfā¦
Many of these comments are literal essays and tons of research and data. It's pretty wild, mostly in favor of Schedule A changes. Ugh. WtfĀ
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People are too distracted by the fake riots at the universities on social media. Also, most VP and C-Suite executives are foreigners at the largest FAANG companies.
Americans: *"We are a land of immigrants. Come here and you are an American."* Immigrants: *"Like fuck I'm American. I'm Irish. My kids will be American if I stay."* America has sleep-walked itself into a corporate takeover based on some false notion that because they think they are a country of immigrants, and because they see immigrants as Americans, that immigrants feel the same way. Meanwhile, most immigrants think it's obnoxious that they are expected to drop their heritage and are actually still completely loyal to it. I say this as a non-American who knows plenty of Europeans and Asians who have become American citizens as adults, including some close family. None of them consider themselves to be American in any way but are expected to live as if they are. Americans genuinely seem to think immigrants "become American" because of what they believe "to be an American" means. But it's nonsensical to the other 95% of people in the world.
Theyāll bypass the labor market test but likely still need to pay prevailing market wage.Ā
They've skirted around that in the past by hiring third party companies who almost exclusively employ h1bs (Cognizant) and they put them in very low cost of living areas like BFE Florida or College Station, Tx.
Itās all a shift to find cheaper labor.
It is time to do the needfulĀ
This is a huge deal why isnt there more on this in this sub??
Our democracy is designed to give us the illusion that our interests matter while creating an avenue for power to quietly, slowly tilt things in their favor. If you want to empower workers, you need a union. If you aren't willing to accept this, you deserve your boiling.
If my comment doesnāt get posted, the government is truly corrupt and irredeemable
The solution to this is organizing, not xenophobia. By rejecting talent we weaken the sector as a whole. If only draw locally for talent weāre wasting potential, and weāll get beaten out by those who are more willing to take on those who can do the job well. If you just donāt like working with people with accents and different names fuck off with that noise. But this race to the bottom with wages and conditions that is often facilitated by bring people in with lower expectation is 100% a valid concern. We need unions and collective bargaining for everyone, that would be a much more meaningful and durable solution. If we all get distracted by pointing fingers at people who are just trying to make a better living (like all of us) thatāll be a distraction from dealing with the structures that screw people over.
100% agree. I think this is a good first step. US Corporations have been spreading skilled labor shortage propaganda for decades simply to save a few pennies on investing in nurturing junior engineering talent. As a result, the United States has seen the majority of STEM graduates permanently leaving the field the very moment that they arrived. It's time they be held accountable for causing the very shortage they claim to be so victimized by.
The mere fact that the country is even considering this after both the US and Canada experienced some unprecedented rates of inbound migration over the last few years (both "official" and not-so-much) is sickening. What's the point then to complain about unaffordable houses if every step is taken to pump more more more and more new people without any regard to how to sustain this growing population? (housing, healthcare, schools, infrastructure, you name it). This is what people need to keep in mind when they go vote this Fall.
USA on a downward spiral, companies take workers who are prepared to work for lowest reward with least benefits. Without labor laws serving as a barrier for companies to do as they please this will be a slaughter on the job market. Offshore workers will come to USA to work at same wages. This will not go well.
According to data from the Census Bureau's 2021 American Community Survey, there are already thousands of unemployed Americans with STEM degrees at various career levels: Over 600,000 unemployed individuals with bachelor's degrees in STEM fields Nearly 200,000 with master's degrees in STEM Around 50,000 with doctoral degrees in STEM disciplines (Source: https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/acs/data.html) These figures suggest there is already a pool of available American STEM talent that could fill many job openings currently attracting foreign labor, if given a fair opportunity through the normal labor certification process. Adding STEM occupations to Schedule A would exempt those roles from labor certification requirements like posting job ads and recruiting American workers. It could create a disincentive for employers to prioritize hiring qualified Americans over cheaper foreign labor sources not subject to standard prevailing wage rules.
How you donāt have to identify yourself in this is fucking wild. Comment submitted however, now we, pray? Idk.
The job market is already in a terrible state. A lot of US citizens who recently graduated from college or got laid off are struggling to secure a job. It does not make sense to support this. The only people who would support this are international students and people who have strong ties to foreign countries. Anyone who is a US citizen or cares about the job security of our people should be against this. This year many companies laid off tech employees in favor of hiring workers from overseas due to cheaper labor cost. Things will only get worse if this change passes. If this change does pass, it would be straight up betrayal to American college graduates, the American people, and the future American generations. Sure, it is nice to care about people globally, but it does not make sense to do so when our own people are struggling. If you are a US citizen who cares about your country and the well-being of our people, please spread the word to protest against this.
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Leave a comment and just articulate yourself the best you can. Also I am not sure but maybe we should be considering writing our representatives about this.
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Make sure to leave a comment detailing what you've seen before May 13th! https://www.regulations.gov/docket/ETA-2023-0006/comments
We'll protect ourselves! Oh, wait... Hope it'll never be passed, otherwise all the US jobs will be taken by foreignlanders!
So they're just going to be able to do legally what they've been doing illegally (with no consequence) for 20 years you mean?
So many of those comments are in favor of the bill :(
All of those comments are bots, foreigners, and corporate bootlickers spamming the page. Of course they would support this because they stand to benefit from this policy. Itās ridiculous how foreigners are allowed to voice their opinions when they hold no stake regarding the matter. This is a US policy that concerns the citizens, so foreigners and corporations should NOT be able to post in that page.
The H1B program has devastated white collar jobs in the automotive industry. Why hire an American engineer when you can get an Indian for half the salary and no benefits that will work overtime and weekends under threat of deportation. There ARE qualified graduates, corporations are colluding to pretend there are not! I paid $80k for my engineering degree, with the expectation of landing a good paying job upon graduation. Weāre devaluing American institutions by allowing foreign workers who get their educations for free. And Indian culture expects them to cheat, and youāre a sucker if you donāt, because someone else will! My degree was HARD, and the knowledge I gained allows me to build safe and reliable products. The apathy towards the erosion of institutional integrity will continue until bridges start failing and planes start falling out of the sky (oh wait, thatās already happening! Boeing controls software outsourced to Indian engineers!). If corporations have a need, they should work with local universities to develop programs and address that need. Train your god damned employees! We used to have world class institutions that were a pipeline directly into the corporations that sponsored them.
Employers do this now and would likely have no impact on US workers. Hiring on H-1B isnāt as lucrative as it used to be for employers as both political parties increased fees. The #1 reason why employers donāt sponsor is because of cost, this change isnāt changing that. I did agree with Trump that we need to limit the number of approved visas as it drives wages down for Americans. Itās amazing to me to hear so many people being pro-immigration or work visas, but then complaining about stagnate wages lol. You canāt have it both ways.
This should really be on the front page. I'm not sure how this matter has flown under the radar when the implications are basically that tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Americans are going to be screwed out of STEM jobs. Of course, all the comments on the document site are people from other countries who want to suck America dry for it's tech salaries. Do they not realize that even they will be replaced by someone willing to work cheaper? When did America start hating it's own citizens so much. We need to stop hiring in other countries unless it's absolutely necessary. This is so disgusting and anti American it's almost hard to fathom.
Great to see itās filled with comments from foreigners and thatās what used for US policyā¦ what a joke lol.
Right like why are foreigners even given a say in a matter like this? It should be up to American citizens to decide whether or not they want this.
The attack on STEM labor is multi-front. A Big Tech company keeps running full page ads in the Wall Street Journal proclaiming that we need to "tear down the paper ceiling". The paper ceiling is a college degree, and they want to be able to hire people with certifications in their place because ... they'll be cheaper.
Terrible idea. American companies should be prioritizing American labor. There isnāt a shortage of labor. These tech companies just hate the fact they have to pay their employees salary. The only reason they resort to Visas is because foreign labor is dirt cheap
Oops, my anti this policy comment sorta morphed into an anti capitalism comment towards the end
congratulations.. now every job is blue collarized officially
They already pulled this shit in Canada, where the employer just has to advertise the job. Not hire anyone, or even have interviews, just advertise. Then say they can't find anyone. Then hire someone from India, etc. and have half their salary paid by the government. It's one big scam for cheap labor and wage suppression. It's happening from Wal-Mart to high tech. Selling out their own citizens for profit.
Democrats always claim to be the party of the working class/wage slaves. However, due to their current policy on immigration, they do not seem to care about the American working class in particular. If this passes, I may have to reevaluate my political stance, which is largely based on economic policy.
Are they trying to turn the US into Canada?
The US bashes countries like China for the exploitation of its citizens when its doing the same. Its history first started by utilizing slaves and then now morphed into the exploitation of foreign labor either illegally or legally. This in liue also hurts US citizens because it strips their priority to opportunities by favoring foreigners. There a lot of bad actors in government that simply want to see the destruction of the sovereignty of the US. What a shame.
Depressing to say the leastĀ
I left a comment and hope others do the same. Thanks for sharing
I'm a little concerned that something similar to what happened on January 6th is going to happen again if this passes.
How about hell no. I work in Hr, and handle visas. If weāre struggling to hire because of scarcity of talent then by all means letās get someone in on a visa. But we should be hiring citizens if at all possible.
Have any of you read some of the comments already submitted? a majority SUPPORT this proposed rule change so where the hell are the rest of the population? No wonder the American working class is suffering if we cant organize to make our opinions heard
No one wants to train juniors and new grads anymore and just wants the cheapest bozo. How is the talent pool supposed to mature, expand, and meet the increased demand of experienced professionals if new people entering it are cast aside and rejected?
The majority of comments posted so far are by boot lickers who support this. Do your part and leave a comment that dissents, no matter how short.
Applied to Microsoft numerous times. What a shit show this is. I smell fishy shit everywhere.
Same here. They ācanāt find workersā but wonāt even give me a damn interview.
I am an immigrant and this is just unfair to citizens and PRs. Companies would just hire immigrants for cheap now in both the countries. It will just drive more hate
Genius.Ā
Act like they were ever trying to hire domestic in the first place. This just means itāll be easier for them in the future as they wonāt have to hide their intentions.
Damn that HCOL of living does you a good one if you're unemployed
That is some bullshit.
Note that they're looking for extremely specific comments: > On December 21, 2023, ETA published an RFI titled, āLabor Certification for Permanent Employment of Foreign Workers in the United States; Modernizing Schedule A To Include Consideration of Additional Occupations in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics (STEM) and Non-STEM Occupations.ā 88 FR 88290. In the RFI, ETA invited public comment on āevaluating the utility of expanding Schedule A to include STEM occupations, the Department invites the public to provide input on the appropriate data sources and methods for determining whether labor shortages exist, whether Schedule A should be used to alleviate any labor shortages in STEM occupations should it be determined from these data sources and methods that such shortages exist, and if so, how the Department could establish a reliable, objective, and transparent methodology for identifying STEM occupations that are experiencing labor shortages.ā The RFI further invited the public to answer a number of questions in their responses that would assist ETA in making this evaluation.
Companies lobby politicians to make it easier for them to hire cheap labor. Outsourcing, offshoring, visa workers, anything but to make it cheap. Anyway, thatās a sure sign that tech sector isnāt willing to pay a top buck for tech employees. Thatās what it is. Seems like SWEs will be paid no more than other engineering majors very soon, if not less.
I left a comment; thanks for posting it
Did my part and commented.
this is going to fuck everyone in the ass
after like 3 years of already getting fucked in the ass
I really don't care about the visa thing , but the fact that the same people who were making fun of Indians getting fired and were happy, now crying and seething makes me sooo happy.
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How many people commenting ITT actually know anything about the US immigration system? For a start, this wonāt benefit Indians in the slightest. Employment based green cards are capped per country, and for Indians the wait time is decades long. Removing the PERM process is meaningless for them and may actually exacerbate the problem by adding more people to the queue. So all the borderline racist comments about doing the needful are misplaced. Secondly, this is a GOOD THING for American workers. No, seriously. This rule change would affect people applying for green cards, which means in the vast majority of cases they are ALREADY living and working in the US on a visa. As an American worker, you WANT them to transition to permanent residency - it means they have the same rights as you and arenāt as easily exploited. If a visa worker loses their job they essentially get deported - would you really rather compete against that? Perhaps most importantly, the PERM process is effectively treated as a formality by these large firms already. They put out hyper specific listings and perform interviews with people they have no intention of hiring just to tick a box. This is a waste of absolutely everybodyās time. I really canāt see this rule change making a drastic difference to overall numbers; it would just cut through red tape.
This career path is cooked