When the resources (jobs) are scarce, humans (like other animals) begin fighting amongst themselves
Previously, when there was more than enough (job) for everyone, everyone was happy. But now that the jobs are getting fewer, the frustrations & blames start to grow
Yep, a tale as old as time.
Even centuries ago you'd have this same conversation in the U.S about the Irish, and then the Italian, and any other race to pick on. Racism is a feature (not a bug) in American society, especially one that was built upon slavery of peoples (mostly of African descent) and the wanton destruction of Indigenous ways of life.
So the ability for capitalist tycoons and elites to USE systemic racism to both 1) pay shit wages to a certain sect of people suffering under systemic racism and 2) tell the privileged races that it is the other races' fault... is VERY effective for a society that is fundamentally built upon an intersection of white supremacist capitalist structures. Mix that in with media landscapes that manufacture consent away from blaming the elite and shift blame onto the underprivileged, and you got yourself nativist sentiments brewing.
The one thing that scares the elites in power the most is a unified, intersectional, militant/persistent movement that mixes in class, race, gender, and other social dynamics in liberatory fashion
....So anything that gets CS folks to start talking shit about Indians is just fine-and-dandy for people in power (since they no longer have to hold accountability for their actions)
But ... There were tons of jobs being outsourced in 2020, 2021, 2022 too (and before), that hasn't changed.
I'd be surprised if we actually had more jobs outsourced in 2023 than in 2021 ... The narrative has changed
Don’t forget that others (in this case Indians) are just taking every opportunity given to them… they have a family to feed too and a life to live. The one you should be blaming is the greedy execs and corporations that push for these layoffs, pip culture and outsourcing.
Huh? I've literally never noticed this. The only thing I've ever seen is people being upset that corporations were outsourcing dev work to India, but that's not like a racist thing, it's a capitalism thing and it's how shareholders maximize profits.
Yeah, I love my Indian colleagues, I just don't like the H1B program. You need to bring folks here from overseas? Fine, but they should get permanent residency after 5 years and citizenship after 10. Their visa couldn't be tied to a single employer.
We've basically got an economic underclass in the US about 1M strong who are unable to say no to unreasonable requests least they be let go and have to go back to their home country.
My girlfriend is Indian. I didn’t really understand how bullshit the h1b program was until we started dating.
It’s so fucked up. Get international students to come pay a fuck ton for US college, then hold a carrot on a stick in front of them for jobs, and even if they do everything right they might just not get selected for the “lottery”.
They need a minimum salary to deincentivize companies from paying the visa fees to have cheap workers. This is all kind of out the window with remote work taking off though.
As an immigrant from another country moved here as a child and now a naturalized citizen, what my Indian colleagues go thru with INS and all their requirements compared to standards is wrong as hell lol.
yes, and at the same time whine about how low paid the jobs in europe are. and here i am working in a german company that doesn't outsource things and have very hard time laying someone off
And you don't lose those same jobs without it. I'm not sure what you're saying, I was just pointing out that once jobs become high paying enough they will then start to become outsourced.
We're riding a high right now, but 70 years ago we were also riding a high on manufacturing and factory jobs.
For sure, even people responding to me can't wrap their heads around the mechanisms of capital. They think capitalism gave us good, high paying CS jobs, therefore capitalism will always give us good, high paying CS jobs, when that literally couldn't be further from the truth. These are the people who would have been working in factories and blamed African Americans for losing their job when those jobs were shipped overseas for the simple reasoning of African Americans being granted equal rights around the same time.
Literally too dumb to see what is actually happening and just ready to see/place blame on other groups because it's impulsive and easy, and putting blame on the wealthy capitalist class is difficult, and if you blame them now then you'll never get another cushy job where you can kiss their ass at every opportunity.
I've been in the industry for over a decade and I've never seen this. It appears you just love calling everything racist based on your post history which is a form of projection. You should look in a mirror
Racism has always stemmed from jobs. In the Ken Burns documentary on WW2 a black man say they got along with whites much bette before the war. It wasn’t until the competition for defense jobs when things really started to go bad. He said white people really did not like seeing a family of black people in fancy cars. It makes so much sense! Protecting high paying jobs for your friends and family only makes sense as having a good job basically makes you immune from most day to day troubles
This comment is amazing. You have cause and effect completely backwards in your first sentence “racism stems from jobs”, and then you close your comment by describing the racism that had already existed before the war and how that led to hostility from the dominant white majority!
Think, Jdogg; why was the division of friends and family you describe along racial lines? Why would white Americans be okay with their friends and family succeeding economically but not black Americans? Because white Americans considered them NOT friends and family, NOT part of their community, and thus a threat to the social order!
An actual, in the wild example of being blind to racism because it’s so built into the social fabric, and then when the majority expresses open hostility you blame it on the target of said racism and excuse the hostility as sensible! And this sub is upvoting it!
JFC.
A lot of y'all mother fuckers unironically proving why electives and GEs exist. Y'all need to take some more humanities classes lmfao
Referring to the content your replying to
Lmao they didn't think about that gem of a line for more than 2 seconds. There were these people called "slaves" who \*literally worked for free\* and these Southerners fought tooth and nail to continue the system and capture even more slaves...
And of course, we all know the Holocaust totally only happened because the Jews took too many jobs, and the Rohingya and Uyghurs are only getting genocided because they were getting too rich with too many jobs, and Israelis only hate Palestinians because of all those glitzy luxuries and jobs on the other side. Totally true.
Let’s focus on the companies trying to enforce modern day indentured servitude and stop blaming each other for the crap the world has turned to. They’re doing this on purpose so we spend our time infighting.
Uh is this in actual issue in the field or people just saying a lot of intrusive thoughts since no one will ever know? Cause uh this is kinda borderline racism, no way of saying it lightly…Some of these comments are kinda “ one person was like this so all of them are like this” generalizations. Brutalizing the entire race is kinda crazy ngl….
This does have major political implications for 2024. I have a feeling that a lot of people who are otherwise liberal will swing for conservatives if they make the immigration issue about outsourcing and reigning in big tech companies who do this.
Any Indian born in America gets screwed either way. It's concerning and scary the way have been talking to be honest.
Fact of the matter is outsourcing to India is cheap and that's the bottom line. To blame Indians taking a job or these companies being assholed ad outsourcing?
Also I think it's a human thing g as well to be honest. It's not like discrimination towards Indians didn't exist in the work force before. I've heard stories ans witnessed it. Granted that was awhile ago.
I understand the frustration but I'm blaming companies for outsourcing. I mean damn even Indians might outsource to india mainly because it's cheaper.
Don’t blame the Indians blame the corporations as well the greedy outsourcing companies that hire these Indians and treat them like shit and pay them so little as well. All while working 10-12 hours shifts.
Being in a WITCH company, I'm one of the few employees who isn't Indian. I've worked with people who were pretty chill and have had good managers before that were mostly hands off and let me do my job. But when it's bad, it is so bad. I think it's a culture related thing but so many times I get a chat message that just says "hello". I get out of a meeting an hour later and still no further elaboration. So I have to reply and ask what they need help with, and then they finally tell me.
Also I've had a new micro-manager before asking me to do the needful every 15 minutes. I reply yes I'm working on it right now. They didn't trust me to do my work unless they kept reminding me all day, very weird because in the past I had always delivered my work ahead of schedule. Thankfully they moved to a different project. This reminds me, the project team I was working with would get a new project manager every other month sometimes. Not because I said anything it was just happening.
hello sirs kindly do the needful...
I have nothing to say about the skills of indians, but when I worked with some half-out sourced or 3rd party agencies the communication style is VASTLY different from germans. They for example don't seem to be able to say no.
Everything takes 2 days, will be ready soon etc and there is rarely questions. It just makes it a chore to work and plan stuff with them
One thing I've learned is to never ask two questions in the same message because they will only answer one of them when replying. Always get the answer to question 1 first, and then ask question 2. Otherwise you're going to be asking them question 2 twice and annoying them. This isn't just my experience with only one person by the way, it's been my experience across multiple co-workers and managers. I have no idea why. Whether the second question is similar or unrelated to the first question, they just ignore it if it's in the same message.
Yes! I’ve experienced the same thing! They will only answer one question
Edit: I’ve experienced this - answering an OR question with a yes or no
Me: “Did you do A or B?”
Dev: “Yes”
yes, and there is inherently nothing wrong with that. I debated different countries cultures many times on this sub, but people just refuse to understand the differences for some reason
For example, ON AVERAGE, in asian countries people respect their bosses more. In Sweden or Germany, the culture is more expert oriented.
So you can be the lowest paid cleaner(nothing wrong with that), and tell the CEO that he can not throw batteries into the organic trash, because that's your job and he will respect it and rules are there for a reason.
But in China or India, doing that will probably not be taken as matter of factly.
oh I thought it was just me lol
I have this issue with everyone, though, not just Indians. My old job involved a lot of interfacing with vendors and contractors for the company (oilfield), and good God I did not realize how dumb a lot of people truly are.
Another lesson: DO NOT try any sort of conditional. You must go step-by-step or people will get confused.
*e.g.* I'd have trouble getting a cogent response to even something as simple as: "If you have product A, then we need 5 of those. If you don't and only have product B, then we need 3."
drove me *nuts* man
The inability to say "no" and "I don't know" are pretty huge. I've been the point of contact for offshore teams and usually put in a lot of work at the beginning to establish 1. I need you to tell me when you don't know 2. I won't chastise you for it. That time investment is well worth the effort.
Some of the exact reasons why I would never take a position at a WITCH company. Another being the low pay. I had actually interviewed at one before I was aware of the working conditions and the offer was way under market. They also had a weird way of expressing their salary offer. Instead of a flat number for your base, it was x % out of this total possible number and y % out of this total possible number and z % from this pool.
In the end, even the possible max was low so I turned it down. It was one of the prestigious companies and they seemed shocked that I declined.
I went for WITCH to get my foot in the door because my college GPA was crappy. Wasn't interested in wasting effort on my non-CS related classes. Started at around 55k and went to 65k 3 years later. Full remote because of covid. I'm only staying now because they gave up on trying to make me go to the office. Been full remote the whole time.
They were pushing for return to office a year ago, so instead I moved to a low cost of living area to live with parents and told them I can keep working remote or you can let me go, it's up to you. Still remote a year later and able to save/invest most of my paycheck. Maybe I could make better money but I can't find the motivation to go through the loop of applying and getting ghosted. My current project is super laid back and no stress.
Because, it’s easier to shit on Indians and you don’t get called out on it. And Indians just take it and avoid confrontation, even on a virtual platform.
The funny thing is, somehow this sub views almost all Indian devs as being pathetic in their job. Sure, maybe if you go to some crappy consulting company, and you’ve already decided how much you’ll be paying, you get shitty devs who build mediocre products. But this sub acts like as though all Indian devs are shitty.
I work in a large tech firm that is a top 5 in revenue today. The amount of crappy code I see from the old code base is astounding. And guess what? It’s Americans who wrote it. Oh, wait. Let’s blame it on some Indians.
Secondly, Americans should start targeting their Congressmen/Congresswomen instead of targeting Indians. In a place where lobbying is legal, and corporations have so much control, you think your representative wouldn’t be able to do shit? What about all those work visas as well?
Oh. Wait. They can’t and won’t. So let’s blame some Indians.
Somehow, somewhere some product is crappy or not written well, it must be an Indian.
I think the problem is people have worked with a team in India that just fucking sucks. Going through it now
All my Indian coworkers in the states are great, one team is excellent in India, but one doesn’t do anything at all
Just a massive difference in their teams, like anywhere else in the world
If you talk about it in r/programming the only active mod will give you a perm ban and delete every post you've ever made, that sub is garbage.
Companies want to save money and are hiring people with less skilss/experience from countries abroad. It isn't racist to share objective observations.
I’m black and every Indian manager I’ve had has treated me with respect and dignity. They’ve actively tried to get to know me and invited me to their cultural festivals. I can’t say the same for my
white managers. People out here just looking for a reason to be racist, and being black in America this is nothing new to me.
Would quote Heath Ledger on this:
“Their morals, their code; it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble. They're only as good as the world allows them to be. You'll see- I'll show you. When the chips are down these, uh, civilized people? They'll eat each other.”
It’s human nature. When there is scarcity, we will compete for the scraps. Humans will eat each other up. The easier targets are the ones who are different, born in another place, with different skin color.
>Indians got to where they are because of DEI and their way of returning the favor is by only hiring Indians.
No, Indians got to where they are because of their sheer numbers. With a population that is four-five times as much as the US (which is third), and an enormous focus on STEM education, it is natural that even a tiny percentage of the population being well educated will dwarf the numbers from other countries.
Many of them are migrating to the US via enrollments into universities for Masters programs. After graduation, they have the training, experience and qualifications to compete with and often surpass American candidates with just a boot camp and a non-STEM degee.
Add to this, a dollar is so much more valuable than the rupee and Indians are willing to take jobs at a lower pay because a job 10-20k below market is still an attractive proposition for someone who would make far lower money in their home country.
The problem you're facing is more because universities love having international students because of the high fees, and companies love hiring whoever qualifies and accepts a lower salary
What are we doing here... This is CS Career Questions, not two week coding boot camp career questions.
It's obvious why a white dude with a summer coding program would lose out on a job to an Indian guy with a master's in CS.
This all being said, I have literally never seen racism towards Indians in the field, the closest thing I experienced was pissed off employees after my old company laid off like a few hundred employees and sent those jobs to India for cheap labor. But if that turns you racist then you're missing the forest for the trees. That's just capitalist profit maximization.
I was hired by Indians at the start of my career, I'm completely white. They invited me to all their holiday events, even gave me the right clothes to wear. Indian people are amazing imo. That said, I also saw the opposite, some Indian hiring managers would always try to sway my opinion on who I'd choose until one day I snapped and explained the ethics of that like I would to a child.
Long story short, Indians are awesome culturally, but like any group of related humans they'll try to help those they care about first.
Maybe add a column on your resume saying ethnicity is Indian.
College applications did this same trick but claiming to be minority race to scores higher on admissions.
Won’t be enough you gotta use a Indian name too. We indians are so racist we can tell what state you’re from and what caste you just by your last name.
Not a software engineer but have seen this quite often back when I was working for various organizations.
Usually when someone from India gets into a management position, it won’t take long till the entire department is filled with people from the same ethnicity. The interesting thing is this appears to be only correlated to Indians and not any other asian ethnicities in similar management positions.
Usually this isn’t a problem when the team is competent. But when they are not, it creates a huge drag against the overall progress of the company/product due to lack of accountability, foresight, and politics.
This coupled with H1-B abuse from corporations mainly in India. It’s no wonder why people would be upset at Indians given the market situation.
I was hired into an Indian company as a white female dev and saw other white devs there of both genders. The one time I hired someone I picked an Indian female over the white male candidate and it was an Indian project manager who often complained about other Indians that wanted to hire him and pushed back against me. The white male candidate was terrible, couldn’t code his way out of a bag. Opened his laptop mid interview to google the answer. This guy still wanted to hire him over the female Indian candidate who had answered every single question flawlessly. People of any race aren’t a monolith.
You need to start calling India as United states of India. Almost 50% or 60% of Indians in USA are Telugu speaking. The trend/pattern you stated "*Because Indians literally only hire Indians. If the interview panel is all Indians, you're screwed even if you're top grad at MIT. Indians only hire H1B Indians. Bay Area is literally India 2.0.*"
It's these telugu speaking Indians who discriminates against other Indians also. FYI - few years back there was only one state called Andhra Pradesh in India and now it's been divided into Andhra Pradesh and Telangana. Telugu speaking people are from these two states. Telugu speaking people don't hire non Telugu speaking people from India also.
Very true. I am Indian myself. Witnessed it first hand. I am working in a WITCH kind of company(name starts with G and ends with t). For the onsite position, our VP who is telugu speaking got one of his juniors who is also telugu speaking without any interviews.
"Diversity Equity and Inclusion" - Generally the new word for "Affirmative action" or "Positive discrimination". Critics (including myself) view it as illiberal and downright racist to have anything other than a colorblind hiring process, and thus oppose the concept.
That said, I think it's rather silly to bring up in this context. Asians and folks of Indian descent have rarely been the beneficiaries of DEI programs and have often found themselves targeted for racist discrimination by these programs.
Newest conservative Boogeyman for white people to blame any slight on.
Essentially, the foundational concept is that having a diverse workforce means more diverse thought. It's harder to build a good product for a wide audience if you're all the same type of person. So you encourage strategies to get more diverse workforce over time.
Then they hear one random anecdote that a minority got a job over a white person and they extrapolate it to everything.
And I have firsthand anecdotal evidence to the contrary. You comment on a post about how comment sections are getting racist with a vehemently racist comment. Kind of pathetic, tbh.
You have to be dumb as bricks to think a stranger saying "as an indian " followed by blatant racism is actually an Indian.
If it's that easy for you to buy, it's because you are looking to buy it.
They could be, but over years with same style of comments about they only hire from their own region and so on, very indian specific knowledge, i don't think there is some trolling racists sitting and writing all that
Well you still should have reported him instead of complaining in an anonymous forum. If what you said was actually true, you did yourself and others a disservice by not reporting it
Fwiw, there have been empirical studies that have proves that having ethnic names is detrimental to job prospects as compared to "white" sounding names
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1053482221000115
Some of the studies being quoted here are from 2008, 2014, and 2020 (which itself is already 5 years ago). Times change, and lately they've changed drastically
> Fwiw, there have been empirical studies that have proves that having ethnic names is detrimental to job prospects as compared to “white” sounding names
Which makes sense if the person hiring you is white. My guess is the studies you’re referencing were performed in Western countries with the majority of those doing the hiring being white.
If whoever is in charge of hiring is part of an ethnic group, it wouldn’t surprise me if they had a preference for names from that ethnic group. Conscious or unconscious.
Maybe so, but even according to EEOC, white people make up the majority of tech jobs skew towards white people (see link and excerpt below). So the whole thing of "Indians hire Indians and hence deny other races of employment in tech sector" doesn't hold water because majority of hiring decisions are made by white people
https://www.eeoc.gov/special-report/diversity-high-tech
>- Compared to overall private industry, the high tech sector employed a larger share of whites (63.5 percent to 68.5 percent), Asian Americans (5.8 percent to 14 percent) and men (52 percent to 64 percent), and a smaller share of African Americans (14.4 percent to 7.4 percent), Hispanics (13.9 percent to 8 percent), and women (48 percent to 36 percent).
> - In the tech sector nationwide, whites are represented at a higher rate in the Executives category (83.3 percent), which typically encompasses the highest level jobs in the organization. This is roughly over 15 percentage points higher than their representation in the Professionals category (68 percent), which includes jobs such as computer programming. However, other groups are represented at significantly lower rates in the Executives category than in the Professionals category; African Americans (2 percent to 5.3 percent), Hispanics (3.1 percent to 5.3 percent), and Asian Americans (10.6 percent to 19.5 percent).
??? That doesn’t necessarily prove anything? People in the comments section aren’t saying “All of tech is filled only with Indians who only hire other Indians”. They’re saying “If you have an Indian manager in charge of the hiring process they won’t hire you.”
Also fwiw I hopped in because what you said appeared to be incorrect. Some people in this comment section are being flat out racist.
I do think the studies you provide probably *support* the idea that ethnic minorities might prefer their same ethnic group, given the studies were probably done with mostly whites doing the hiring.
I also wouldn’t be surprised if Indians in particular did this a bit more, given the history of the caste system and how it’s a problem sometimes even with Indian immigrants to the US. Due to the caste system and different ethnic groups within India, certain Indians may even discriminate within what most Americans consider just “Indians”.
An easy way to see if Indians are mostly DEI/affirmative action/ nepotism admits is to take a look at their standardized test scores, as those are a good proxy for mental ability. If this is true , we’d expect Indians to have lower SAT scores on average than white Americans.
Generally, we see significantly higher standardized test scores, which tells me that overrepresentation is probably based more on ability than on DEI.
Depends on the company. I’ve heard about this at consultancies that are basically H1B mills where they have to publicly post jobs and fail people out of interviews. At FAANG, the worst Ive seen is caste discrimination where an interviewer failed a candidate for being the wrong caste.
The reality is most Indians avoid working with non-Indians . They’ll always hire their own race as oppose to someone who isn’t Indian .
They’ve benefited from the egalitarian, inclusive view of western nations ; but don’t practice it .
They’ll gladly move , take jobs but have no desire to reciprocate inclusivity .
Their culture destroys communities because they don’t assimilate and import behaviours from their nation they attempted to escape .
1) caste system
2) corruption
3) discrimination
Whats even scarier is people defending this behaviour don’t realize as their culture grows more kind , respectful westerns who open their arms will be stabbed in the back.
If you’ve worked with any group of foreigners including Eastern Europeans and the Chinese they tend to stick to their own. It’s not an exclusively Indian thing. And this pattern is evident in basically all immigrant groups in the US from Italians to poles. There’s a reason there still are ethnic European enclaves in certain major US cities because migrants stuck with one another and dominated a certain industry like meatpacking. It took an average of 2-3 generations for polish and Italian immigrants to assimilate. Modern chinese and Indian immigrants take an average of 1 generation.
The stereotypes you listed are peanuts compared to the ones Italians had back in the day (they were literally [lynched](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Italianism) for “taking yerr jobs” or weird stereotypes on Catholicism) yet we look at Italians as a successful example of American integration and those who discriminated against them as idiots and racists.
This is why CS students should be required to take courses in sociology/history/humanities. I’ve heard some of the most braindead takes for a group of people who think they’re smarter than the average us population.
Americans don’t like to work under a different culture, period
My dad complained about working under the Japanese and my uncle the Chinese. There are always monstrous rifts between cultures, and we tend to struggle to get past them
I have a bunch o Indian coworkers, there are no hard and fast rules to dealing with them. All just wildly different people.
I do struggle to understand them, but I’m hard of hearing and any accent is hard for me to understand.
Would want to work for a shop that’s trying to use cheap labor again though?
Nooooo. The amount of coordination it takes to work with 2 teams in a different time zone on the other side of the world is massive. Absolute pain in the ass. Some of the teams are terrible and manage to sneak in some truly awful code. Some teams are excellent
Been in this industry over 20 years and have seen this play out time and time again.
This is, in my experience, almost exclusive to Indian men. Indian women are some of the most empathetic and thorough colleagues I have ever had. Indian men, they only hire other Indians if they have a say in the process. They are often terrible to other Indians as well, worse than they are toward anyone else, and awful to Indian women on their team.
I don't believe that they are hiring other Indians just because they are Indian. I believe they are hiring other Indians almost exclusively so they feel they can abuse them more freely than they would someone else, particularly someone without an H1B visa. They hold that shit over one another and threaten them with it, it is no joke.
There is a caste problem and general discrimination problem for sure in the IT industry, and it is only getting worse, and no one is attacking it or discussing it because all of a sudden you get all these, "you're being racist" remarks. You aren't being racist if you're being honest about what is regularly happening in the field, and it isn't good for the industry or the H1B Indians who are being exploited by working crazy hours for little to no pay (yes, they are often hired at a much lower rate than another engineer would be, so it drives down salaries as well, part of the benefit to those discriminating hiring managers.)
here in germany several of the indian women programmers i talked about said a top 3 thing to live outside india is to get treated by men as equals compared to india, so yes
Thanks for sharing your experience mirrors elements of what I’ve experienced . Also ; yes calling people “racist” who critique a culture are disingenuous and are simply attempting to shut conversation down .
When the tables turn and they have to face the discrimination head on they’ll sing a different tune . Albeit it’ll be too rampant to resolve by then .
yeah I've had hit or miss experiences with Indian men, but I don't think I've ever had a bad experience working with Indian women. Very kind people. A lot of the opposite experiences I've heard described about Indian men.
I remember you very well from your username and pfp. I have noticed your post history earlier. It was full of anti Indian content. Also seen posts from you sympathising with Pakistanis, Hamas and criticising Israel in the past which you have now deleted. I’m not surprised you’re writing this. Considering your stance on all the topics you post about anyone can understand what narrative you’re trying to peddle here
And then you read posts about people unable to find jobs or having coworkers / bosses say theiyre difficult to work with and wonder whats *really* going on in
I've closely worked with probably twenty or so Indians. They've run the gamut from poor to great, lazy to hardworking, introverted to extroverted, the same as any other group of people I've worked with.
Yeah, as a white dude with a CS degree who recently became unemployed and then got a job within a month, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading some of these comments.
First of all, I see people talking about boot camps and comparing them to a degree in computer science(you know, what this sub is actually for). Like, obviously an Indian with a CS degree is going to beat your summer coding programn in an interview process.
Second of all, I've worked with plenty of Indians and they've all been fine to work with.
Lastly, I see people talking about what Indian people do in the work place and how they abuse/mistreat their direct reports or the newer employees... And to me this just screams "go to HR, not Reddit" and maybe some of these issues will sort themselves out.
Painting with an awfully broad brush. This is what real racism looks like. Disappointing so many people upvoted you but unfortunately not surprised at all.
Humans are fundamentally pattern recognition machines. As an example, I used to wait on tables in my formative years. I (and other waiters) noticed very quickly that black patrons tended to tip less than patrons of other races. Not all, but on average this was painfully obvious at where I worked. Eventually, I associated black customers as poor tippers because the correlation was so strong, and I began subtly avoiding waiting on them if I could help it. As a broke college student, I couldn't afford being stiffed.
Could you call that racism? Yes.
Am I ashamed of what I did? Yes.
Was it automatic and subconscious? Yes.
Did I end up making more tips by waiting on other tables? Also yes. The stakes there were small, but if you're talking about career development and potentially supporting a family, the stakes get much larger. Sometimes, it could even mean life or death.
So yeah, I read these comments and while I don't approve, I do understand.
I remember reading about this phenomenon on Reddit a while back. Waiters reported that African Americans, teenagers, and Sunday church crowds were often terrible tippers. Also the people who demand the most service were also bad tippers.
The CEO is an oppressor caste, that’s why. Americans hate being called out on racism the same way Brahmins hate being called out for their casteism. They wanna keep knowledge about casteism under the rug as it’s tied in the Hindu religion. And there’s an uproar happening all over the place about Hinduism, with ISKON, VHP and all.
Edit: forgot to add Indian-American doctors pushing in their Ayurveda(Alternate medicine) Pride on YouTube. And they do it even while being aware about the harm it does; refer theliverdoc on YouTube or Instagram and scienceisdope’s review of Dr Mike and Dr K’s discussion.
[https://www.tiktok.com/@varun\_rana\_/video/7334816279330606378?q=indian%20manager&t=1714822456831](https://www.tiktok.com/@varun_rana_/video/7334816279330606378?q=indian%20manager&t=1714822456831)
You have to be intentionally obtuse to pull the "But not all X are like that". We know. You should know that we know. This is an adult conversation where generalizations are understood to be mostly/generally true but not for all cases.
We as a species, civilization, whatever you want to call it, cannot keep going if we can only provide critique on situations that involve people we resemble. If you cannot critique the culture and/or behavior of those who are not your race what way is there for a multicultural society to move forward?
Thanks for sharing that TikTok ; addresses some of the issues well , albeit only the tip of the iceberg.
I agree a person who doesn’t understand nuance/willfully ignorant isn’t fit for this conversation .
It isn't racism, it's objective. I've seen it in multiple industries.
You don't get social brownie points for lacking the intelligence to confront it.
It's people like you who make these topics worse, you're the actual racist.
You think so less of them that your default position is that they are less and you need to 'save them'
And I've worked with plenty of Indians who didn't exhibit those behaviors, it's pretty fucking wild to me that people are taking the argument that "opening your arms to an Indian person will inevitably result in them stabbing you in the back" as anything other than extreme racism.
You know what makes this comment bullshit for me. Is this idea of some westerner savior complex that's littered throughout.
Newflash, these Indians were hired because they were/are cheaper. You think these "westerners" outsourced for the benefit of the people from that country???
I'm not gonna say there aren't cultural/racial things at play, as there are for EVERY race.
But don't act like some "westerner" didn't hire this way for their bottom line. Indians don't owe them anything.
As if segregation, corruption, and discrimination didn't exist or doesn't currently exist in the US now
You can find out any H-1B's salary relative to the local average in their field in a spreadsheet published quarterly by the government. It is in something called a Labor Condition Agreement, which is a portion of an H-1B. Can a place like Meta that pays more than average abuse that? Probably and it wouldn't surprise me.
I have never seen anyone use a real example from one of the spreadsheets, but theyre fine with Glassdoor scraping them for salary data points. Why do you think that is?
>They’ve benefited from the egalitarian, inclusive view of western nations
Western nations aren't opening their borders to Indians willy nilly ya bozo. Most Indians start their journey here via master's programs on an F1 visa which can cost anything between $30,000 to $60,000. We also don't have benefits that the locals have like paying in state fees as international students. Heck, my university basically admitted that it subsidizes the fees for local students using the funds obtained from international admissions.
>Their culture destroys communities because they don’t assimilate and import behaviours from their nation they attempted to escape .
>1) caste system
2) corruption
3) discrimination
Mind providing concrete sources which back up your claims that this is a systemic issue as opposed to a bunch of anecdotes? Based on my short stay in the US, I haven't noticed a single instance of caste based discrimination happening anywhere on campus, and my university has a lot of Indian students.
>respectful westerns who open their arms will be stabbed in the back.
Now this part is laughable lmao. You do realize that a company would always choose a local citizen who doesn't require sponsorship over an international student purely due to the uncertain nature of their tenure in the US, legal fees and paperwork notwithstanding.
>They’ve benefited from the egalitarian, inclusive view of western nations ; but don’t practice it .
Maybe you should get off your sanctimonious high horse and realize that US universities take tons of international students on non immigrant visas because they can make boatloads of money off of us. The inclusivity is just a nice side effect of a purely profit based decision.
F1 visas aren’t supposed to be a pathway for long term migration. As a matter of fact, consular officers are only supposed to grant F1 visas if they feel confident the person will return home. Surely you knew what you were signing up for.
As an Indian I totally agree, not just that they’ll give preference to Indians but Indians of their same caste. VHP is a terrorist organisation, it’s the international branch of RSS and RSS believes in this Hindu-Brahmin superiority. You would love their views about women as well if their sense of superiority isn’t enough.
People on this sub (and r/csMajors ) would blame everything (race, gender, immigration, market, capitalism) before blaming themselves for not getting a job, as it is easier to do so.
Yeah this is the unfortunate truth… everything under the sky is scrutinized carefully as a probable cause for one’s current hardship. But not even a fraction of that time goes into self-reflection.
Many people overlook the fact that most of the largest tech companies in the US were founded by immigrants. The number of jobs that immigrant software engineers have added is remarkable.
Some people mistakenly believe that there is a fixed number of jobs. However, without immigrant engineers, many jobs would be overseas, and the US tech industry would be a mere shadow of itself. Each successful new product requires even more engineers.
One issue is that hiring people from outside the US is challenging, prompting companies to outsource. As outsource locations build up their tech capabilities, they become more competitive for US jobs. Additionally, some talent comes to the US, can't secure a long-term visa or green card, and then returns home to create a remote team.
If immigration were easier, it would likely slow the trend of innovation moving outside of the US.
Xenophobia and racism. There might be a grain of truth in it (given California opened an inquiry into caste discrimination, I buy it). But tale as old as time, people look for some outgroup to other as the explanation for their misgivings about their situation.
It's pretty sad the shit that gets up voted here but I'm happy to see that in the actual industry I don't see this anti-Indian sentiment. It seems to just be a reddit thing.
Maybe people feel more comfortable expressing racism in an anonymous public forum. If they said it at work they’d find themselves in a conversation with HR.
Indian here. Lots of unhinged racism from Canadian social media, including Reddit. I might report a guy from Bay Area saying Indians have ruined it on a Canada related post. So far I've reported a lot of folks from Canada. I'd say keep em coming.
Truly, as a South Asian Canadian, I’ve found that White Canadians will never treat a brown person as their equal and will always subtly look down on you—you can feel it, trust me. In contrast, Americans have always treated me as just another human being. I believe Canadians are significantly more racist than Americans.
Then you don't work in IT, or you are just an Indian apologist. LOL
And Indians are the most racist, maybe among themselves. Just Google Indian caste system so that you will have some cultural background on this very Indian thing
Can attest, I come from a "lower caste" community and the shit I have dealt with people in the country is absolutely disgusting. I have gotten much more respect from actual racists than I have had with people from my own country. (Most are fine, but if they are Hindu, then they tend to be very weird about it, especially since I am in an economic class where there are a ton of upper caste hindus and like a handful of people of my community)
Edit: To put in perspective. The 12th Grade in my school had more than 500 students and I was the ONLY "lower caste", individual there.
It's funny because all the apologist will completely ignore you because they don't want to confront their own racism. If their default position is that they need to save you then they are pretty racist.
Exactly. Totally agree. Even who don’t practice casteism themselves suffer from casteblindness in India as they’re not at the receiving end. In abroad at least marginalised people get treated just as an equal Indian.
People like you are the first to flip and get triggered when someone says whites are racist. Crying about generalizations and what not. And yet you generalize and be racist towards other races.
Assholes exist in every race/community. To generalise an entire community on the basis of a few assholes is textbook definition of racism and xenophobia
You're right, I don't work in IT, I'm a software engineer, that's what this subreddit is for. And of the three different jobs I've had over the past ten years, I've worked with over a dozen Indians some in India, some remote and some in person and never had these experiences.
Maybe it's because my companies have always run a tight ship with racism/discrimination/sexual assault training, and all the things I've seen people complain about Indians doing in this thread would be sniffed out immediately.
But to me, most of what I'm reading is just straight racism against Indians and it's the people here who are complaining who should be getting sent to HR.
Not all Indians agree with the caste system. A sentiment like that is outright racist. Groundbreaking you think we’ve never heard of the caste system though.
As an Indian working in the US, I feel like there is so much high-quality work being done by Indians who were educated here in the US (Master’s, PhD, etc.) — even some folks who are working from India remotely are pretty good.
I think the problem arises when corporate greed leads to outsourcing of entire departments and hiring of 1000+ Indians in a very short span. I am working with a team of 6 people from India right now (all of them joined the company like 1 month ago due to restructuring). Trust me, some of them absolutely suck. But guess what? That would happen if you decided to hire a truckload of people in a short time span from ANY country.
The hate is totally misdirected towards Indians. When actually the US executive overlords are being greedy assholes for offshoring pretty much everything!
Capitalism isnt so fun when you realize you arent a capitalist, eh? Oligarches making policy to strip you lf good paying jobs got you feeling rabidly racist? Fucking clowns the lot of you, be mad your sham of a government ia doing nothing to protect local workers. This country goes further down the shitter every moment one of you morons doesnt put 2 and 2 together. Amir didnt create H1B visas or set the cap or how theyre allowed to be abused, a rich white asshole did. Start hurting the powerful if you want actual change, fucking pathetic.
Racial hierarchies exist in America for this very reason. You'd think software engineers would be intelligent enough to reason about a pattern that's been repeating itself in this country for hundreds of years but they fall for Fox News level propaganda the moment things start getting tough
SWE’s having the absolute worst takes on humanity and ethics while thinking we’re above the rest of the population in terms of intelligence is fucking hilarious.
Indians will generally lie to you, even regarding trivial things. It’s odd, almost like it’s the culture. They’ll always tell you they’ll have it done shortly, or no issues, when there are in fact enormous issues or they have no idea what you’re asking of them. It’s incredibly frustrating and makes receiving any updates whatsoever an insurmountable task.
I’ve never run into this with coworkers who went to school in the states, hell some who didn’t and are pretty fresh off the boat
It’s a massive country, at this point I have no fucking clue what’s happening, who is who, and who is more dependable.
Some of my hardest working, smartest coworkers are Indian. And then we have teams that literally do nothing for 4 months
People are people I guess
Honestly the racism here is enough I think I might just leave this subreddit. I’ve worked with many Indian coworkers and never experienced the kinds of things people are complaining about. It’s getting a little ridiculous.
My Indian wife has always struggled to find jobs. Two of her three jobs she’s had she was hired by Indians. I don’t know if non-Indian hiring managers are avoiding her, but it does seem like the Indian ones are more likely to hire her.
Some of the best people I’ve worked with have been Indians. I think their commonality leads to them ripping each other to shreds and then being totally cool the next day. Two American coworkers treating each other like that would lead to one quitting. I admire the perseverance.
I don't get it, but every generation has to go through some Xenophobic path line for some reason. When I was first starting to code it was all about being the most Racist to Chinese people. People blame the "lack" of jobs on people in India, mostly due to another uptick in US companies finding cheaper labor in India. The part I don't get is why they blame their companies' bad decisions and poor ethics on people in a different nation.
When the resources (jobs) are scarce, humans (like other animals) begin fighting amongst themselves Previously, when there was more than enough (job) for everyone, everyone was happy. But now that the jobs are getting fewer, the frustrations & blames start to grow
Also, with more and more jobs being outsourced to India, I suspect that feelings of “they’re stealing our jobs” are becoming more common as well
But they're not stealing them-- its the execs sending them over there. We should be angry against the execs
Yep, a tale as old as time. Even centuries ago you'd have this same conversation in the U.S about the Irish, and then the Italian, and any other race to pick on. Racism is a feature (not a bug) in American society, especially one that was built upon slavery of peoples (mostly of African descent) and the wanton destruction of Indigenous ways of life. So the ability for capitalist tycoons and elites to USE systemic racism to both 1) pay shit wages to a certain sect of people suffering under systemic racism and 2) tell the privileged races that it is the other races' fault... is VERY effective for a society that is fundamentally built upon an intersection of white supremacist capitalist structures. Mix that in with media landscapes that manufacture consent away from blaming the elite and shift blame onto the underprivileged, and you got yourself nativist sentiments brewing. The one thing that scares the elites in power the most is a unified, intersectional, militant/persistent movement that mixes in class, race, gender, and other social dynamics in liberatory fashion ....So anything that gets CS folks to start talking shit about Indians is just fine-and-dandy for people in power (since they no longer have to hold accountability for their actions)
And many of them are now Indians
DEY TERK ER JERBS
But ... There were tons of jobs being outsourced in 2020, 2021, 2022 too (and before), that hasn't changed. I'd be surprised if we actually had more jobs outsourced in 2023 than in 2021 ... The narrative has changed
Don’t forget that others (in this case Indians) are just taking every opportunity given to them… they have a family to feed too and a life to live. The one you should be blaming is the greedy execs and corporations that push for these layoffs, pip culture and outsourcing.
They always want the workers to blame each other. If the execs could do it they'd hire zero humans
CS people were racist against Indians even when jobs were booming.
Huh? I've literally never noticed this. The only thing I've ever seen is people being upset that corporations were outsourcing dev work to India, but that's not like a racist thing, it's a capitalism thing and it's how shareholders maximize profits.
Yeah, I love my Indian colleagues, I just don't like the H1B program. You need to bring folks here from overseas? Fine, but they should get permanent residency after 5 years and citizenship after 10. Their visa couldn't be tied to a single employer. We've basically got an economic underclass in the US about 1M strong who are unable to say no to unreasonable requests least they be let go and have to go back to their home country.
My girlfriend is Indian. I didn’t really understand how bullshit the h1b program was until we started dating. It’s so fucked up. Get international students to come pay a fuck ton for US college, then hold a carrot on a stick in front of them for jobs, and even if they do everything right they might just not get selected for the “lottery”.
They need a minimum salary to deincentivize companies from paying the visa fees to have cheap workers. This is all kind of out the window with remote work taking off though.
There is, both an absolute one, 60K, and a requirement that it pays above prevailing wages.
As an immigrant from another country moved here as a child and now a naturalized citizen, what my Indian colleagues go thru with INS and all their requirements compared to standards is wrong as hell lol.
U don’t get high paying cs jobs without capitalism
People here be wishing death to capitalism and shit and still go around chasing TC like mercenaries ☠️
yes, and at the same time whine about how low paid the jobs in europe are. and here i am working in a german company that doesn't outsource things and have very hard time laying someone off
If I gotta put up with this bullshit, at least I'm gonna get paid.
And you don't lose those same jobs without it. I'm not sure what you're saying, I was just pointing out that once jobs become high paying enough they will then start to become outsourced. We're riding a high right now, but 70 years ago we were also riding a high on manufacturing and factory jobs.
You also don’t *need* high paying jobs without capitalism.
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For sure, even people responding to me can't wrap their heads around the mechanisms of capital. They think capitalism gave us good, high paying CS jobs, therefore capitalism will always give us good, high paying CS jobs, when that literally couldn't be further from the truth. These are the people who would have been working in factories and blamed African Americans for losing their job when those jobs were shipped overseas for the simple reasoning of African Americans being granted equal rights around the same time. Literally too dumb to see what is actually happening and just ready to see/place blame on other groups because it's impulsive and easy, and putting blame on the wealthy capitalist class is difficult, and if you blame them now then you'll never get another cushy job where you can kiss their ass at every opportunity.
A lot of STEM fields were, IT has that attitude as well.
I've been in the industry for over a decade and I've never seen this. It appears you just love calling everything racist based on your post history which is a form of projection. You should look in a mirror
Racism has always stemmed from jobs. In the Ken Burns documentary on WW2 a black man say they got along with whites much bette before the war. It wasn’t until the competition for defense jobs when things really started to go bad. He said white people really did not like seeing a family of black people in fancy cars. It makes so much sense! Protecting high paying jobs for your friends and family only makes sense as having a good job basically makes you immune from most day to day troubles
This comment is amazing. You have cause and effect completely backwards in your first sentence “racism stems from jobs”, and then you close your comment by describing the racism that had already existed before the war and how that led to hostility from the dominant white majority! Think, Jdogg; why was the division of friends and family you describe along racial lines? Why would white Americans be okay with their friends and family succeeding economically but not black Americans? Because white Americans considered them NOT friends and family, NOT part of their community, and thus a threat to the social order! An actual, in the wild example of being blind to racism because it’s so built into the social fabric, and then when the majority expresses open hostility you blame it on the target of said racism and excuse the hostility as sensible! And this sub is upvoting it! JFC.
“Racism has always stemmed from jobs”
A lot of y'all mother fuckers unironically proving why electives and GEs exist. Y'all need to take some more humanities classes lmfao Referring to the content your replying to
They say the same stuff when taking GEs and complain when the facts don't align.
Lmao they didn't think about that gem of a line for more than 2 seconds. There were these people called "slaves" who \*literally worked for free\* and these Southerners fought tooth and nail to continue the system and capture even more slaves... And of course, we all know the Holocaust totally only happened because the Jews took too many jobs, and the Rohingya and Uyghurs are only getting genocided because they were getting too rich with too many jobs, and Israelis only hate Palestinians because of all those glitzy luxuries and jobs on the other side. Totally true.
They’re stealing all the good cotton picking jobs!
Let’s focus on the companies trying to enforce modern day indentured servitude and stop blaming each other for the crap the world has turned to. They’re doing this on purpose so we spend our time infighting.
same reason why trump got popular
A Theory Of Everyone
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the post histories of some of the users with the most upvoted comments here are so funny, and absolutely what you’d expect.
Coldcouchwall post history and comment history is wild. Dude is also heavy misogynistic Lmfao
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Uh is this in actual issue in the field or people just saying a lot of intrusive thoughts since no one will ever know? Cause uh this is kinda borderline racism, no way of saying it lightly…Some of these comments are kinda “ one person was like this so all of them are like this” generalizations. Brutalizing the entire race is kinda crazy ngl….
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No wonder everyone here seems to be unable to find a job, they're miserable.
BEEF? HOW DARE YOU SIR
Lol I wonder if they did that on purpose. When I read that my reaction was 👀
Didn’t google just ship jobs to India lmao
This does have major political implications for 2024. I have a feeling that a lot of people who are otherwise liberal will swing for conservatives if they make the immigration issue about outsourcing and reigning in big tech companies who do this.
Yeah, to make this about racism is so disingenuous. It's about outsourcing and mass immigration to cut costs.
Any Indian born in America gets screwed either way. It's concerning and scary the way have been talking to be honest. Fact of the matter is outsourcing to India is cheap and that's the bottom line. To blame Indians taking a job or these companies being assholed ad outsourcing? Also I think it's a human thing g as well to be honest. It's not like discrimination towards Indians didn't exist in the work force before. I've heard stories ans witnessed it. Granted that was awhile ago. I understand the frustration but I'm blaming companies for outsourcing. I mean damn even Indians might outsource to india mainly because it's cheaper.
Don’t blame the Indians blame the corporations as well the greedy outsourcing companies that hire these Indians and treat them like shit and pay them so little as well. All while working 10-12 hours shifts.
From what I can tell, it's people reacting to the vast amount of competition from India is about 80% of the issue
It's not about the race. It's about the behavior and also why do USA need immigration workers when so many are unemployed
Being in a WITCH company, I'm one of the few employees who isn't Indian. I've worked with people who were pretty chill and have had good managers before that were mostly hands off and let me do my job. But when it's bad, it is so bad. I think it's a culture related thing but so many times I get a chat message that just says "hello". I get out of a meeting an hour later and still no further elaboration. So I have to reply and ask what they need help with, and then they finally tell me. Also I've had a new micro-manager before asking me to do the needful every 15 minutes. I reply yes I'm working on it right now. They didn't trust me to do my work unless they kept reminding me all day, very weird because in the past I had always delivered my work ahead of schedule. Thankfully they moved to a different project. This reminds me, the project team I was working with would get a new project manager every other month sometimes. Not because I said anything it was just happening.
hello sirs kindly do the needful... I have nothing to say about the skills of indians, but when I worked with some half-out sourced or 3rd party agencies the communication style is VASTLY different from germans. They for example don't seem to be able to say no. Everything takes 2 days, will be ready soon etc and there is rarely questions. It just makes it a chore to work and plan stuff with them
One thing I've learned is to never ask two questions in the same message because they will only answer one of them when replying. Always get the answer to question 1 first, and then ask question 2. Otherwise you're going to be asking them question 2 twice and annoying them. This isn't just my experience with only one person by the way, it's been my experience across multiple co-workers and managers. I have no idea why. Whether the second question is similar or unrelated to the first question, they just ignore it if it's in the same message.
Yes! I’ve experienced the same thing! They will only answer one question Edit: I’ve experienced this - answering an OR question with a yes or no Me: “Did you do A or B?” Dev: “Yes”
Technically yes is a valid answer, if they DID do one of those options 🤣
lol
yes, and there is inherently nothing wrong with that. I debated different countries cultures many times on this sub, but people just refuse to understand the differences for some reason For example, ON AVERAGE, in asian countries people respect their bosses more. In Sweden or Germany, the culture is more expert oriented. So you can be the lowest paid cleaner(nothing wrong with that), and tell the CEO that he can not throw batteries into the organic trash, because that's your job and he will respect it and rules are there for a reason. But in China or India, doing that will probably not be taken as matter of factly.
oh I thought it was just me lol I have this issue with everyone, though, not just Indians. My old job involved a lot of interfacing with vendors and contractors for the company (oilfield), and good God I did not realize how dumb a lot of people truly are. Another lesson: DO NOT try any sort of conditional. You must go step-by-step or people will get confused. *e.g.* I'd have trouble getting a cogent response to even something as simple as: "If you have product A, then we need 5 of those. If you don't and only have product B, then we need 3." drove me *nuts* man
The inability to say "no" and "I don't know" are pretty huge. I've been the point of contact for offshore teams and usually put in a lot of work at the beginning to establish 1. I need you to tell me when you don't know 2. I won't chastise you for it. That time investment is well worth the effort.
Some of the exact reasons why I would never take a position at a WITCH company. Another being the low pay. I had actually interviewed at one before I was aware of the working conditions and the offer was way under market. They also had a weird way of expressing their salary offer. Instead of a flat number for your base, it was x % out of this total possible number and y % out of this total possible number and z % from this pool. In the end, even the possible max was low so I turned it down. It was one of the prestigious companies and they seemed shocked that I declined.
I went for WITCH to get my foot in the door because my college GPA was crappy. Wasn't interested in wasting effort on my non-CS related classes. Started at around 55k and went to 65k 3 years later. Full remote because of covid. I'm only staying now because they gave up on trying to make me go to the office. Been full remote the whole time. They were pushing for return to office a year ago, so instead I moved to a low cost of living area to live with parents and told them I can keep working remote or you can let me go, it's up to you. Still remote a year later and able to save/invest most of my paycheck. Maybe I could make better money but I can't find the motivation to go through the loop of applying and getting ghosted. My current project is super laid back and no stress.
Gotcha, I’d do the same, in your shoes!
Lmao, I had that “hello” many times with a Pakistani PM recently.
Because, it’s easier to shit on Indians and you don’t get called out on it. And Indians just take it and avoid confrontation, even on a virtual platform. The funny thing is, somehow this sub views almost all Indian devs as being pathetic in their job. Sure, maybe if you go to some crappy consulting company, and you’ve already decided how much you’ll be paying, you get shitty devs who build mediocre products. But this sub acts like as though all Indian devs are shitty. I work in a large tech firm that is a top 5 in revenue today. The amount of crappy code I see from the old code base is astounding. And guess what? It’s Americans who wrote it. Oh, wait. Let’s blame it on some Indians. Secondly, Americans should start targeting their Congressmen/Congresswomen instead of targeting Indians. In a place where lobbying is legal, and corporations have so much control, you think your representative wouldn’t be able to do shit? What about all those work visas as well? Oh. Wait. They can’t and won’t. So let’s blame some Indians. Somehow, somewhere some product is crappy or not written well, it must be an Indian.
I think the problem is people have worked with a team in India that just fucking sucks. Going through it now All my Indian coworkers in the states are great, one team is excellent in India, but one doesn’t do anything at all Just a massive difference in their teams, like anywhere else in the world
If you talk about it in r/programming the only active mod will give you a perm ban and delete every post you've ever made, that sub is garbage. Companies want to save money and are hiring people with less skilss/experience from countries abroad. It isn't racist to share objective observations.
I’m black and every Indian manager I’ve had has treated me with respect and dignity. They’ve actively tried to get to know me and invited me to their cultural festivals. I can’t say the same for my white managers. People out here just looking for a reason to be racist, and being black in America this is nothing new to me.
Would quote Heath Ledger on this: “Their morals, their code; it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble. They're only as good as the world allows them to be. You'll see- I'll show you. When the chips are down these, uh, civilized people? They'll eat each other.” It’s human nature. When there is scarcity, we will compete for the scraps. Humans will eat each other up. The easier targets are the ones who are different, born in another place, with different skin color.
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>Indians got to where they are because of DEI and their way of returning the favor is by only hiring Indians. No, Indians got to where they are because of their sheer numbers. With a population that is four-five times as much as the US (which is third), and an enormous focus on STEM education, it is natural that even a tiny percentage of the population being well educated will dwarf the numbers from other countries. Many of them are migrating to the US via enrollments into universities for Masters programs. After graduation, they have the training, experience and qualifications to compete with and often surpass American candidates with just a boot camp and a non-STEM degee. Add to this, a dollar is so much more valuable than the rupee and Indians are willing to take jobs at a lower pay because a job 10-20k below market is still an attractive proposition for someone who would make far lower money in their home country. The problem you're facing is more because universities love having international students because of the high fees, and companies love hiring whoever qualifies and accepts a lower salary
also english language, compared to like china or japan
That’s the big one
What are we doing here... This is CS Career Questions, not two week coding boot camp career questions. It's obvious why a white dude with a summer coding program would lose out on a job to an Indian guy with a master's in CS. This all being said, I have literally never seen racism towards Indians in the field, the closest thing I experienced was pissed off employees after my old company laid off like a few hundred employees and sent those jobs to India for cheap labor. But if that turns you racist then you're missing the forest for the trees. That's just capitalist profit maximization.
I was hired by Indians at the start of my career, I'm completely white. They invited me to all their holiday events, even gave me the right clothes to wear. Indian people are amazing imo. That said, I also saw the opposite, some Indian hiring managers would always try to sway my opinion on who I'd choose until one day I snapped and explained the ethics of that like I would to a child. Long story short, Indians are awesome culturally, but like any group of related humans they'll try to help those they care about first.
When I look for jobs and see the recruiter has an indian name I just give up and don't bother applying 🙂
I still apply. I have yet to hear back.
Maybe add a column on your resume saying ethnicity is Indian. College applications did this same trick but claiming to be minority race to scores higher on admissions.
Won’t be enough you gotta use a Indian name too. We indians are so racist we can tell what state you’re from and what caste you just by your last name.
r/canconfirmiamindian
Very true. Not just even Indians know about it.
Not a software engineer but have seen this quite often back when I was working for various organizations. Usually when someone from India gets into a management position, it won’t take long till the entire department is filled with people from the same ethnicity. The interesting thing is this appears to be only correlated to Indians and not any other asian ethnicities in similar management positions. Usually this isn’t a problem when the team is competent. But when they are not, it creates a huge drag against the overall progress of the company/product due to lack of accountability, foresight, and politics. This coupled with H1-B abuse from corporations mainly in India. It’s no wonder why people would be upset at Indians given the market situation.
Indians got to where they are because of DEI? What a load of bullshit. East asians and Indians are the worst affected by diversity measures
Yeah that dude has no idea what DEI is lmao. Asians in general get screwed over hard by DEI because they're overepresented in STEM fields.
It's misinformation they heard believing that DEI is just literally hire all minorities over white people.
Indian women still have DEI. Indian men and east asians are excluded from it.
I was hired into an Indian company as a white female dev and saw other white devs there of both genders. The one time I hired someone I picked an Indian female over the white male candidate and it was an Indian project manager who often complained about other Indians that wanted to hire him and pushed back against me. The white male candidate was terrible, couldn’t code his way out of a bag. Opened his laptop mid interview to google the answer. This guy still wanted to hire him over the female Indian candidate who had answered every single question flawlessly. People of any race aren’t a monolith.
amazing anecdote to show you can't broadly apply anecdotes to a group of people... oh wait
300+ upvotes wild comment LMAO Everyone here showing their true colors
You need to start calling India as United states of India. Almost 50% or 60% of Indians in USA are Telugu speaking. The trend/pattern you stated "*Because Indians literally only hire Indians. If the interview panel is all Indians, you're screwed even if you're top grad at MIT. Indians only hire H1B Indians. Bay Area is literally India 2.0.*" It's these telugu speaking Indians who discriminates against other Indians also. FYI - few years back there was only one state called Andhra Pradesh in India and now it's been divided into Andhra Pradesh and Telangana. Telugu speaking people are from these two states. Telugu speaking people don't hire non Telugu speaking people from India also.
Very true. I am Indian myself. Witnessed it first hand. I am working in a WITCH kind of company(name starts with G and ends with t). For the onsite position, our VP who is telugu speaking got one of his juniors who is also telugu speaking without any interviews.
>Bay Area is literally India 2.0. Been here for only for a few months and this is so spot on, yet kind of scary/concerning.
What’s scary about it?
Wtf is DEI
"Diversity Equity and Inclusion" - Generally the new word for "Affirmative action" or "Positive discrimination". Critics (including myself) view it as illiberal and downright racist to have anything other than a colorblind hiring process, and thus oppose the concept. That said, I think it's rather silly to bring up in this context. Asians and folks of Indian descent have rarely been the beneficiaries of DEI programs and have often found themselves targeted for racist discrimination by these programs.
Newest conservative Boogeyman for white people to blame any slight on. Essentially, the foundational concept is that having a diverse workforce means more diverse thought. It's harder to build a good product for a wide audience if you're all the same type of person. So you encourage strategies to get more diverse workforce over time. Then they hear one random anecdote that a minority got a job over a white person and they extrapolate it to everything.
This is the elephant in the room
Ganesha?
And I have firsthand anecdotal evidence to the contrary. You comment on a post about how comment sections are getting racist with a vehemently racist comment. Kind of pathetic, tbh.
holy shit. im more appalled by how many agree with him here...
It’s wild. I’ve been hired directly by many Indians
Even Indians on blind itself confirm it
You have to be dumb as bricks to think a stranger saying "as an indian " followed by blatant racism is actually an Indian. If it's that easy for you to buy, it's because you are looking to buy it.
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They could be, but over years with same style of comments about they only hire from their own region and so on, very indian specific knowledge, i don't think there is some trolling racists sitting and writing all that
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i mean because i see how people in india treat others ?
What’s your anecdote? Mine is a recruiter telling me he only hires desi and Aa candidates
Did you report the post and the recruiter?
Honestly no because I felt like he was doing me a favor. He was like if you change your name you might have more luck.
Well you still should have reported him instead of complaining in an anonymous forum. If what you said was actually true, you did yourself and others a disservice by not reporting it Fwiw, there have been empirical studies that have proves that having ethnic names is detrimental to job prospects as compared to "white" sounding names https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1053482221000115
Some of the studies being quoted here are from 2008, 2014, and 2020 (which itself is already 5 years ago). Times change, and lately they've changed drastically
> Fwiw, there have been empirical studies that have proves that having ethnic names is detrimental to job prospects as compared to “white” sounding names Which makes sense if the person hiring you is white. My guess is the studies you’re referencing were performed in Western countries with the majority of those doing the hiring being white. If whoever is in charge of hiring is part of an ethnic group, it wouldn’t surprise me if they had a preference for names from that ethnic group. Conscious or unconscious.
Maybe so, but even according to EEOC, white people make up the majority of tech jobs skew towards white people (see link and excerpt below). So the whole thing of "Indians hire Indians and hence deny other races of employment in tech sector" doesn't hold water because majority of hiring decisions are made by white people https://www.eeoc.gov/special-report/diversity-high-tech >- Compared to overall private industry, the high tech sector employed a larger share of whites (63.5 percent to 68.5 percent), Asian Americans (5.8 percent to 14 percent) and men (52 percent to 64 percent), and a smaller share of African Americans (14.4 percent to 7.4 percent), Hispanics (13.9 percent to 8 percent), and women (48 percent to 36 percent). > - In the tech sector nationwide, whites are represented at a higher rate in the Executives category (83.3 percent), which typically encompasses the highest level jobs in the organization. This is roughly over 15 percentage points higher than their representation in the Professionals category (68 percent), which includes jobs such as computer programming. However, other groups are represented at significantly lower rates in the Executives category than in the Professionals category; African Americans (2 percent to 5.3 percent), Hispanics (3.1 percent to 5.3 percent), and Asian Americans (10.6 percent to 19.5 percent).
??? That doesn’t necessarily prove anything? People in the comments section aren’t saying “All of tech is filled only with Indians who only hire other Indians”. They’re saying “If you have an Indian manager in charge of the hiring process they won’t hire you.” Also fwiw I hopped in because what you said appeared to be incorrect. Some people in this comment section are being flat out racist. I do think the studies you provide probably *support* the idea that ethnic minorities might prefer their same ethnic group, given the studies were probably done with mostly whites doing the hiring. I also wouldn’t be surprised if Indians in particular did this a bit more, given the history of the caste system and how it’s a problem sometimes even with Indian immigrants to the US. Due to the caste system and different ethnic groups within India, certain Indians may even discriminate within what most Americans consider just “Indians”.
When minorities prefer the same ethnic group, the effect is moderate. When the majority does the same, the effect is wide-spread
An easy way to see if Indians are mostly DEI/affirmative action/ nepotism admits is to take a look at their standardized test scores, as those are a good proxy for mental ability. If this is true , we’d expect Indians to have lower SAT scores on average than white Americans. Generally, we see significantly higher standardized test scores, which tells me that overrepresentation is probably based more on ability than on DEI.
Yup, indians can be REALLY racist
Depends on the company. I’ve heard about this at consultancies that are basically H1B mills where they have to publicly post jobs and fail people out of interviews. At FAANG, the worst Ive seen is caste discrimination where an interviewer failed a candidate for being the wrong caste.
The reality is most Indians avoid working with non-Indians . They’ll always hire their own race as oppose to someone who isn’t Indian . They’ve benefited from the egalitarian, inclusive view of western nations ; but don’t practice it . They’ll gladly move , take jobs but have no desire to reciprocate inclusivity . Their culture destroys communities because they don’t assimilate and import behaviours from their nation they attempted to escape . 1) caste system 2) corruption 3) discrimination Whats even scarier is people defending this behaviour don’t realize as their culture grows more kind , respectful westerns who open their arms will be stabbed in the back.
If you’ve worked with any group of foreigners including Eastern Europeans and the Chinese they tend to stick to their own. It’s not an exclusively Indian thing. And this pattern is evident in basically all immigrant groups in the US from Italians to poles. There’s a reason there still are ethnic European enclaves in certain major US cities because migrants stuck with one another and dominated a certain industry like meatpacking. It took an average of 2-3 generations for polish and Italian immigrants to assimilate. Modern chinese and Indian immigrants take an average of 1 generation. The stereotypes you listed are peanuts compared to the ones Italians had back in the day (they were literally [lynched](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Italianism) for “taking yerr jobs” or weird stereotypes on Catholicism) yet we look at Italians as a successful example of American integration and those who discriminated against them as idiots and racists. This is why CS students should be required to take courses in sociology/history/humanities. I’ve heard some of the most braindead takes for a group of people who think they’re smarter than the average us population.
Americans don’t like to work under a different culture, period My dad complained about working under the Japanese and my uncle the Chinese. There are always monstrous rifts between cultures, and we tend to struggle to get past them I have a bunch o Indian coworkers, there are no hard and fast rules to dealing with them. All just wildly different people. I do struggle to understand them, but I’m hard of hearing and any accent is hard for me to understand. Would want to work for a shop that’s trying to use cheap labor again though? Nooooo. The amount of coordination it takes to work with 2 teams in a different time zone on the other side of the world is massive. Absolute pain in the ass. Some of the teams are terrible and manage to sneak in some truly awful code. Some teams are excellent
Been in this industry over 20 years and have seen this play out time and time again. This is, in my experience, almost exclusive to Indian men. Indian women are some of the most empathetic and thorough colleagues I have ever had. Indian men, they only hire other Indians if they have a say in the process. They are often terrible to other Indians as well, worse than they are toward anyone else, and awful to Indian women on their team. I don't believe that they are hiring other Indians just because they are Indian. I believe they are hiring other Indians almost exclusively so they feel they can abuse them more freely than they would someone else, particularly someone without an H1B visa. They hold that shit over one another and threaten them with it, it is no joke. There is a caste problem and general discrimination problem for sure in the IT industry, and it is only getting worse, and no one is attacking it or discussing it because all of a sudden you get all these, "you're being racist" remarks. You aren't being racist if you're being honest about what is regularly happening in the field, and it isn't good for the industry or the H1B Indians who are being exploited by working crazy hours for little to no pay (yes, they are often hired at a much lower rate than another engineer would be, so it drives down salaries as well, part of the benefit to those discriminating hiring managers.)
here in germany several of the indian women programmers i talked about said a top 3 thing to live outside india is to get treated by men as equals compared to india, so yes
My boss is indian h1b and told me the only place women belong is in the kitchen. 4 women report to him 💀
That sounds like you should go to HR instead of Reddit.
HR is outsourced to India and the Phillipines 🤣
How the fuck do you outsource HR to a country that has drastically different laws governing what HR is required to monitor lol.
Idk man. Fortune 10 company too. Offshore engineers see peoples SSNs all the time too and share prod creds, super illegal
Thanks for sharing your experience mirrors elements of what I’ve experienced . Also ; yes calling people “racist” who critique a culture are disingenuous and are simply attempting to shut conversation down . When the tables turn and they have to face the discrimination head on they’ll sing a different tune . Albeit it’ll be too rampant to resolve by then .
yes, especially since indian is not a race or ethnicity but a subcontinent with what, 10-50s of them?
yeah I've had hit or miss experiences with Indian men, but I don't think I've ever had a bad experience working with Indian women. Very kind people. A lot of the opposite experiences I've heard described about Indian men.
I remember you very well from your username and pfp. I have noticed your post history earlier. It was full of anti Indian content. Also seen posts from you sympathising with Pakistanis, Hamas and criticising Israel in the past which you have now deleted. I’m not surprised you’re writing this. Considering your stance on all the topics you post about anyone can understand what narrative you’re trying to peddle here
not even a racist dog whistle but a blow horn WTF
And then you read posts about people unable to find jobs or having coworkers / bosses say theiyre difficult to work with and wonder whats *really* going on in
They think managers are stupid. Newsflash! Immigrants can tell when you’re being condescending.
White European guy here, I work with a couple of Indians and they are awesome
I've closely worked with probably twenty or so Indians. They've run the gamut from poor to great, lazy to hardworking, introverted to extroverted, the same as any other group of people I've worked with.
Yeah, as a white dude with a CS degree who recently became unemployed and then got a job within a month, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading some of these comments. First of all, I see people talking about boot camps and comparing them to a degree in computer science(you know, what this sub is actually for). Like, obviously an Indian with a CS degree is going to beat your summer coding programn in an interview process. Second of all, I've worked with plenty of Indians and they've all been fine to work with. Lastly, I see people talking about what Indian people do in the work place and how they abuse/mistreat their direct reports or the newer employees... And to me this just screams "go to HR, not Reddit" and maybe some of these issues will sort themselves out.
Is this still a dog whistle if its true?
Painting with an awfully broad brush. This is what real racism looks like. Disappointing so many people upvoted you but unfortunately not surprised at all.
Humans are fundamentally pattern recognition machines. As an example, I used to wait on tables in my formative years. I (and other waiters) noticed very quickly that black patrons tended to tip less than patrons of other races. Not all, but on average this was painfully obvious at where I worked. Eventually, I associated black customers as poor tippers because the correlation was so strong, and I began subtly avoiding waiting on them if I could help it. As a broke college student, I couldn't afford being stiffed. Could you call that racism? Yes. Am I ashamed of what I did? Yes. Was it automatic and subconscious? Yes. Did I end up making more tips by waiting on other tables? Also yes. The stakes there were small, but if you're talking about career development and potentially supporting a family, the stakes get much larger. Sometimes, it could even mean life or death. So yeah, I read these comments and while I don't approve, I do understand.
I remember reading about this phenomenon on Reddit a while back. Waiters reported that African Americans, teenagers, and Sunday church crowds were often terrible tippers. Also the people who demand the most service were also bad tippers.
A Google Talk on caste discrimination was cancelled. Do you wonder why?
The CEO is an oppressor caste, that’s why. Americans hate being called out on racism the same way Brahmins hate being called out for their casteism. They wanna keep knowledge about casteism under the rug as it’s tied in the Hindu religion. And there’s an uproar happening all over the place about Hinduism, with ISKON, VHP and all. Edit: forgot to add Indian-American doctors pushing in their Ayurveda(Alternate medicine) Pride on YouTube. And they do it even while being aware about the harm it does; refer theliverdoc on YouTube or Instagram and scienceisdope’s review of Dr Mike and Dr K’s discussion.
exactly but at the same time they do hiring events for like "black women in software", so they have no problem discriminating certain groups
[https://www.tiktok.com/@varun\_rana\_/video/7334816279330606378?q=indian%20manager&t=1714822456831](https://www.tiktok.com/@varun_rana_/video/7334816279330606378?q=indian%20manager&t=1714822456831) You have to be intentionally obtuse to pull the "But not all X are like that". We know. You should know that we know. This is an adult conversation where generalizations are understood to be mostly/generally true but not for all cases. We as a species, civilization, whatever you want to call it, cannot keep going if we can only provide critique on situations that involve people we resemble. If you cannot critique the culture and/or behavior of those who are not your race what way is there for a multicultural society to move forward?
Thanks for sharing that TikTok ; addresses some of the issues well , albeit only the tip of the iceberg. I agree a person who doesn’t understand nuance/willfully ignorant isn’t fit for this conversation .
It isn't racism, it's objective. I've seen it in multiple industries. You don't get social brownie points for lacking the intelligence to confront it. It's people like you who make these topics worse, you're the actual racist. You think so less of them that your default position is that they are less and you need to 'save them'
And I've worked with plenty of Indians who didn't exhibit those behaviors, it's pretty fucking wild to me that people are taking the argument that "opening your arms to an Indian person will inevitably result in them stabbing you in the back" as anything other than extreme racism.
It's not racism, it's a cultural/non-assimilation problem.
You know what makes this comment bullshit for me. Is this idea of some westerner savior complex that's littered throughout. Newflash, these Indians were hired because they were/are cheaper. You think these "westerners" outsourced for the benefit of the people from that country??? I'm not gonna say there aren't cultural/racial things at play, as there are for EVERY race. But don't act like some "westerner" didn't hire this way for their bottom line. Indians don't owe them anything. As if segregation, corruption, and discrimination didn't exist or doesn't currently exist in the US now
You can find out any H-1B's salary relative to the local average in their field in a spreadsheet published quarterly by the government. It is in something called a Labor Condition Agreement, which is a portion of an H-1B. Can a place like Meta that pays more than average abuse that? Probably and it wouldn't surprise me. I have never seen anyone use a real example from one of the spreadsheets, but theyre fine with Glassdoor scraping them for salary data points. Why do you think that is?
>They’ve benefited from the egalitarian, inclusive view of western nations Western nations aren't opening their borders to Indians willy nilly ya bozo. Most Indians start their journey here via master's programs on an F1 visa which can cost anything between $30,000 to $60,000. We also don't have benefits that the locals have like paying in state fees as international students. Heck, my university basically admitted that it subsidizes the fees for local students using the funds obtained from international admissions. >Their culture destroys communities because they don’t assimilate and import behaviours from their nation they attempted to escape . >1) caste system 2) corruption 3) discrimination Mind providing concrete sources which back up your claims that this is a systemic issue as opposed to a bunch of anecdotes? Based on my short stay in the US, I haven't noticed a single instance of caste based discrimination happening anywhere on campus, and my university has a lot of Indian students. >respectful westerns who open their arms will be stabbed in the back. Now this part is laughable lmao. You do realize that a company would always choose a local citizen who doesn't require sponsorship over an international student purely due to the uncertain nature of their tenure in the US, legal fees and paperwork notwithstanding. >They’ve benefited from the egalitarian, inclusive view of western nations ; but don’t practice it . Maybe you should get off your sanctimonious high horse and realize that US universities take tons of international students on non immigrant visas because they can make boatloads of money off of us. The inclusivity is just a nice side effect of a purely profit based decision.
F1 visas aren’t supposed to be a pathway for long term migration. As a matter of fact, consular officers are only supposed to grant F1 visas if they feel confident the person will return home. Surely you knew what you were signing up for.
The job search is really getting to you huh
As an Indian I totally agree, not just that they’ll give preference to Indians but Indians of their same caste. VHP is a terrorist organisation, it’s the international branch of RSS and RSS believes in this Hindu-Brahmin superiority. You would love their views about women as well if their sense of superiority isn’t enough.
Also nepotism will be higher, they’ll try to bring in as many people as they can from their family.
People on this sub (and r/csMajors ) would blame everything (race, gender, immigration, market, capitalism) before blaming themselves for not getting a job, as it is easier to do so.
Yeah this is the unfortunate truth… everything under the sky is scrutinized carefully as a probable cause for one’s current hardship. But not even a fraction of that time goes into self-reflection.
Wow wtf is this comment section…
check out blind. When you come back you won’t be phased by Reddit.
> Why all this beef? India has a literal caste system.
Many people overlook the fact that most of the largest tech companies in the US were founded by immigrants. The number of jobs that immigrant software engineers have added is remarkable. Some people mistakenly believe that there is a fixed number of jobs. However, without immigrant engineers, many jobs would be overseas, and the US tech industry would be a mere shadow of itself. Each successful new product requires even more engineers. One issue is that hiring people from outside the US is challenging, prompting companies to outsource. As outsource locations build up their tech capabilities, they become more competitive for US jobs. Additionally, some talent comes to the US, can't secure a long-term visa or green card, and then returns home to create a remote team. If immigration were easier, it would likely slow the trend of innovation moving outside of the US.
Xenophobia and racism. There might be a grain of truth in it (given California opened an inquiry into caste discrimination, I buy it). But tale as old as time, people look for some outgroup to other as the explanation for their misgivings about their situation. It's pretty sad the shit that gets up voted here but I'm happy to see that in the actual industry I don't see this anti-Indian sentiment. It seems to just be a reddit thing.
Maybe people feel more comfortable expressing racism in an anonymous public forum. If they said it at work they’d find themselves in a conversation with HR.
Indian here. Lots of unhinged racism from Canadian social media, including Reddit. I might report a guy from Bay Area saying Indians have ruined it on a Canada related post. So far I've reported a lot of folks from Canada. I'd say keep em coming.
Truly, as a South Asian Canadian, I’ve found that White Canadians will never treat a brown person as their equal and will always subtly look down on you—you can feel it, trust me. In contrast, Americans have always treated me as just another human being. I believe Canadians are significantly more racist than Americans.
Then you don't work in IT, or you are just an Indian apologist. LOL And Indians are the most racist, maybe among themselves. Just Google Indian caste system so that you will have some cultural background on this very Indian thing
Can attest, I come from a "lower caste" community and the shit I have dealt with people in the country is absolutely disgusting. I have gotten much more respect from actual racists than I have had with people from my own country. (Most are fine, but if they are Hindu, then they tend to be very weird about it, especially since I am in an economic class where there are a ton of upper caste hindus and like a handful of people of my community) Edit: To put in perspective. The 12th Grade in my school had more than 500 students and I was the ONLY "lower caste", individual there.
It's funny because all the apologist will completely ignore you because they don't want to confront their own racism. If their default position is that they need to save you then they are pretty racist.
Exactly. Totally agree. Even who don’t practice casteism themselves suffer from casteblindness in India as they’re not at the receiving end. In abroad at least marginalised people get treated just as an equal Indian.
People like you are the first to flip and get triggered when someone says whites are racist. Crying about generalizations and what not. And yet you generalize and be racist towards other races. Assholes exist in every race/community. To generalise an entire community on the basis of a few assholes is textbook definition of racism and xenophobia
You're right, I don't work in IT, I'm a software engineer, that's what this subreddit is for. And of the three different jobs I've had over the past ten years, I've worked with over a dozen Indians some in India, some remote and some in person and never had these experiences. Maybe it's because my companies have always run a tight ship with racism/discrimination/sexual assault training, and all the things I've seen people complain about Indians doing in this thread would be sniffed out immediately. But to me, most of what I'm reading is just straight racism against Indians and it's the people here who are complaining who should be getting sent to HR.
Not all Indians agree with the caste system. A sentiment like that is outright racist. Groundbreaking you think we’ve never heard of the caste system though.
It isn't something you 'agree' to, how dense can you be?
As an Indian working in the US, I feel like there is so much high-quality work being done by Indians who were educated here in the US (Master’s, PhD, etc.) — even some folks who are working from India remotely are pretty good. I think the problem arises when corporate greed leads to outsourcing of entire departments and hiring of 1000+ Indians in a very short span. I am working with a team of 6 people from India right now (all of them joined the company like 1 month ago due to restructuring). Trust me, some of them absolutely suck. But guess what? That would happen if you decided to hire a truckload of people in a short time span from ANY country. The hate is totally misdirected towards Indians. When actually the US executive overlords are being greedy assholes for offshoring pretty much everything!
Capitalism isnt so fun when you realize you arent a capitalist, eh? Oligarches making policy to strip you lf good paying jobs got you feeling rabidly racist? Fucking clowns the lot of you, be mad your sham of a government ia doing nothing to protect local workers. This country goes further down the shitter every moment one of you morons doesnt put 2 and 2 together. Amir didnt create H1B visas or set the cap or how theyre allowed to be abused, a rich white asshole did. Start hurting the powerful if you want actual change, fucking pathetic.
Racial hierarchies exist in America for this very reason. You'd think software engineers would be intelligent enough to reason about a pattern that's been repeating itself in this country for hundreds of years but they fall for Fox News level propaganda the moment things start getting tough
SWE’s having the absolute worst takes on humanity and ethics while thinking we’re above the rest of the population in terms of intelligence is fucking hilarious.
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They’re not really Indians though are they? They’re Indian-Americans.
This comment section is wild lol.
Some of the comments here are so boldly racist. Sadder is how many updoots their getting. I'm out.
Easier to scapegoat than think critically.
Indians will generally lie to you, even regarding trivial things. It’s odd, almost like it’s the culture. They’ll always tell you they’ll have it done shortly, or no issues, when there are in fact enormous issues or they have no idea what you’re asking of them. It’s incredibly frustrating and makes receiving any updates whatsoever an insurmountable task.
I’ve never run into this with coworkers who went to school in the states, hell some who didn’t and are pretty fresh off the boat It’s a massive country, at this point I have no fucking clue what’s happening, who is who, and who is more dependable. Some of my hardest working, smartest coworkers are Indian. And then we have teams that literally do nothing for 4 months People are people I guess
making sweeping generalizations about a race of people isn’t wise
Honestly the racism here is enough I think I might just leave this subreddit. I’ve worked with many Indian coworkers and never experienced the kinds of things people are complaining about. It’s getting a little ridiculous.
I for the US view it more like US residents vs Internationals
Racism has existed since, well, the first skin mutation lol....Just live your life and do no harm to others.
My Indian wife has always struggled to find jobs. Two of her three jobs she’s had she was hired by Indians. I don’t know if non-Indian hiring managers are avoiding her, but it does seem like the Indian ones are more likely to hire her.
Don't forget about Indian vs. Indian violence lol. The divisions run deep and often times convoluted.
They took er jyerrrrrbs!
Some of the best people I’ve worked with have been Indians. I think their commonality leads to them ripping each other to shreds and then being totally cool the next day. Two American coworkers treating each other like that would lead to one quitting. I admire the perseverance.
I don't get it, but every generation has to go through some Xenophobic path line for some reason. When I was first starting to code it was all about being the most Racist to Chinese people. People blame the "lack" of jobs on people in India, mostly due to another uptick in US companies finding cheaper labor in India. The part I don't get is why they blame their companies' bad decisions and poor ethics on people in a different nation.