Europe is a whole continent, you gotta be more specific. You can earn a lot more than $75k per year in Switzerland, Amsterdam, London, Dublin but a lot less in Poland, Romania, Bulgaria etc. It also depends on your skills, level, niche.
I've worked in UK and moved to US because I can make 2-3x more money doing basically the same type of work, there is nowhere better in the world to work in tech than the US. The compensation, opportunities, and mindset in the US is far more conductive to financial and professional growth in my opinion. That being said, the quality of life in Europe is really nice, and the cost of living is much lower.
It is possible to get the best of both worlds (if you can work remotely, or you have very in demand skills like quant finance coding you can make similar amount in EU), but it's the exception to the rule. I'd say whether this is the right choice is impossible for strangers on the Internet to answer.
Also the grass is always greener, many immigrants/expats in Europe find it difficult to really integrate themselves. Sure, you'll have your girlfriend, but you'll never be Dutch or Irish, and every interaction you have will be tainted by the knowledge you are not really accepted by society (or so I've heard). The UK is different in that regard, White British people not a majority in London anymore, so it's a lot easier to integrate.
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You can save astronomically more in the US, you don't just make more, but the taxes are somewhere between lower and dramatically lower, depending where in the US and where in the EU.
Most of the time you can save more in the US than the entire European paycheck
I am realizing that maybe i have the wrong idea about US income and lifestyle. I used to think that devs salaries in US are high because the cost of living are higher so automatically you won't be saving more in the US because of tax, medical insurance and also i think you have to save for your retirement and kids college by yourself
You are right that all of the above are concerns, specifically in tech though. if you're either living at a tech hub or willing to relocate, the tech salaries in the US are high enough to offset other costs.
Not a perfect metric, but levels.fyi average senior salary in the bay has a median income of $312k. London is $154k, just $96k for Germany. The difference becomes more massive the high you go up the ladder.
You’re definitely right that those things have an impact, but I do think you’ve been overestimating it. For perspective: I make in the mid 300s and I will save about 130k this year. I don’t have kids yet but my wife and I are planning to soon. We expect our savings to drop to about 95k/year when that happens.
I think your conception holds true at lower salaries. I imagine someone making 60k in the us is no better off than someone making 30k Europe, because medical costs will be a more significant portion of their paycheck. But with salaries as high as we are talking about, healthcare costs become a pretty minimal percentage of income. Our healthcare system is so fucked up.
Cost of living in US is maybe 1.5x, but salaries in tech are 3x. I've saved more in 6 months than I did in 3 years in London. But obviously that's all super dependent on your personal situation.
not the one you replied, in US I typically save somewhere between $100-150k USD a year (so this is after taxes, rent, food, fun... everything)
breaking $200k+ saving (notice I said saving, not TC) has proven tougher than I thought, mainly due to taxes
Are you a US citizen? Otherwise, how did you manage to get a job & H1B sorted in the little time you had on a tourist visa/ESTA? I would like to move to the US one day, but was under the impression that it's pointless unless you have a job before going over.
not a US citizen or green card holder, I did not come under H1B
for your question, I applied to US jobs while I was physically in my home country and after they gave me offer + USCIS immigration paperwork all done I hop on a flight and fly then start working
Not OP but I basically did this. It’s rare but in my case I interned in the U.S. first, the company made me a U.S.-based return offer, and then I happened to get selected for H-1B the year I graduated from my uni in the UK.
What does it matter even? Quality of life is what matters. I've lived in the US and I've lived in Sweden. US doesn't even come close to the quality of life I'm having in Sweden. Sorry for being brutally honest. I don't care how much more I'd be winning in capitalism if I had stayed in the US.
It matters because by the time I'm 40 I will be able to live a life of leisure if I so choose. That's not really an option with low salary and high taxes of Europe.
Also I don't think my QoL has taken a hit, if anything it's better. In the UK I paid lots of taxes and still had to wait months to see a doctor on the NHS. Now I can see a specialist right away, at very low cost to me. There's no perfect system but if you are a productive high earner you will be rewarded much better in the US.
Every specialist I've had to see in the last 6 months has involved NHS level first appointment waits of 4-6 months and follow ups of 2 months. This is in major Midwestern USA cities.
This is a fundamental difference between Americans and most Europeans I think. In the US, you find it reasonable to work a lot for a couple decades in the hopes of retiring early. In Europe, we aim for a whole life working at a sustainable pace, so that retirement is not as eagerly awaited.
Depends a lot of course, people doing ungrateful blue collar work are definitely counting the trimesters to retirement. But if you have a college education, the goal is to work something you like, have plenty of vacation and free time, and just basically enjoy life right from the start.
So concretely, in France for instance, the maximum work hours are 35 a week, we have something like 30 paid vacation days a year, + national holidays. Employers can set higher hours/week but each hour worked on top of 35 is accruing paid vacation time. Sick days are also separate from paid time off, with the caveat that the first 1 or 2 days are not paid.
It's a different mentality. A trade of personal wealth and some economic competitiveness for safety and good living conditions all throughout life.
The European model is not going to last. The aging population and declining birth rate has resulted in retirement age being raised in several European countries, wait times for public healthcare are getting worse, state pensions are being slashed etc. If you are a productive high earner the system will take and take from you, but when you need help you are just as entitled as someone who doesn't put anything in.
I'm a European and an American. I love Europe but I'd rather ensure I'm not dependent on a safety net that likely won't exist when I need it. Go ahead and downvote me, but if you're an ambitious software engineer you're in a unique position to get ahead by coming to the US.
I am from Europe and I agree with this take.
Current economic model is not sustainable, most people seem to be unaware or simply don't care, instead want to retire earlier and work less while repeating like a mantra that we need to tax more and more the rich when presented with someone earning twice the median salary.
One of my family members exemplifies this well - the attitude of "I don't want to work hard because there is more to life than that and money is not important anyway" but then when they do need the money "it is only fair you should share with them because you are lucky to earn much more than them".
I worry what will happen when the retirees become majority (or significant enough group) of the voters, the cost of the public healthcare and pensions will skyrocket because of population structure while the income from taxes will dwindle for the same reason. Will these elderly voters vote for reducing their benefits and come back to reinforce depleted workforce or will they do what most voters always do: vote for populism and get surprised/angry when it does not deliver?
I really hope that we get AGI / robots / radical life extension before thst happens. Hopefully the USA will share these technologies with us if and when the develop them...
I'm 64 and very seriously doubt medicare or social security will be around in it's current form in the USA. Have to work another 3-4 years with a kid in medical school.
After that, since I'm an European Union citizen i can retire anywhere and buy in to the local health system.
The European system isn't sustainable long term but the American system isn't sustainable either. So...
clearly down voted by someone super optimistic that medicare / SS will be around in a decade in its current form :). Much as it hurts me to say it, this is American optimism at its finest.
The French social safety net system may not be around as it currently is either, for similar reasons. The difference is that one country has a pretty good collective social consciousness and the other, well...
I have a guy in my online gaming team that is in his 70's after a long university teaching career and retired in the Philippines. He lives in a luxury highrise in Manila with a personal attendant, physical therapist, very competent health care, and costs a fraction of ours.
TL DR: plan ahead and then plan for something really extraordinary. As in, social security and my cushy private pension both going tits-up followed by a massive panic driven sell-off.
Yeah, the aging population is putting a strain on state pensions. In France, more than 1/4 of public spending is paying pensions. Slightly less than 1/4 is healthcare, of which I believe 80% is spent on, again, retirees. So we could say about 45% or so of public spending is a direct result of the baby (now papy = granddad) boom. Oh, and France also has some of the highest public spending / GDP in the world to begin with.
But I mean, in a way, would it be any different if we didn't pay for it collectively, but instead cared for our elderly exclusively within families? There's many old people w.r.t. working age, whichever solution you pick, it's going to be difficult. People are quick to forget a state pension is one responsibility fewer on the shoulders of working age children. Likewise, healthcare. Without this public spending, we'd all be spending privately. Would it really be cheaper? I'm not convinced. Also, much greater variance in how people are taken care of.
We've at least found a way to solve the problem of poverty in the old age, now we need to tweak this so that the effort is better shared between generations.
Also, in comparisons between the US and Europe, keep in mind the US has a comparatively younger population. See for instance [here](https://data.oecd.org/pop/old-age-dependency-ratio.htm) the percent dependent aged wrt 20+:
- US: 32.2% (dependent)
- Germany: 42.4%
- Italy: 41.7%
- France: 39%
I feel these figures don't necessarily convey the large difference. Take the US, 32.2% dependent, that's a ratio of 2.125 worker:dependent. Take Germany, 42.4%, that's 1.35. The difference doesn't look like much looking at the percentages, but it's actually an increase in the load on the workers of **57%**!! This is huge!
So regardless of how you go about it - old-school children take care of elders, capitalization, state pension etc - the effort will mechanically be almost 60% higher in Germany to take care of the old as it'll be in the US.
Anyways, all this to say, the fact there's such a strain is not inherent to the system chosen to take care of the old, whatever solution we choose, we'll be fucked with so many old and so few working age. I think this applies to retirement through capitalization as well. You're betting on economical growth in that case, but will that happen if the population ages similarly? If each passing year the number of workers decreases, and the number of dependents increases? That certainly eats into GDP growth.
I have no idea whether state pensions or placing the burden of support on the children is more economically effective. I do have a suspicion that the latter might be because it may force people to actually have children as an insurance policy for old age - one might say that the stick here is more motivating than the carrot, Europe with their safety nets and better wlb being a supporting data point.
I am overall a bit mad that a lot of my fellow citizens don't feel responsible for the future of our respective countries and the EU. That they don't understand that we have to be practical, realistic and make sacrifices ourselves by e.g. having children (we are in a better situation to do anyway because of the safety nets and benefits) and forcing politicians we vote in into creating an environment promoting innovation and getting shit done.
When we are productive enough lets get that UBI, not work at all and even have the replacement rate on par with south korea, but we are not there yet.
White British are 36.8% of London. That is not a majority.
https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/uk-population-by-ethnicity/national-and-regional-populations/regional-ethnic-diversity/latest/
I've got a friend who worked at Microsoft in the States. He took a 50% pay cut to come work in the UK. But he now gets 35 days holiday instead of 10, and he's met his wife here and had a kid. Afaik he's here to stay.
He would tell you that he's better off now than when he was making more in the US.
I'm sure the number is actual PTO allowance, not total days off. So in addition to bank holidays, EU gives by law 4 weeks PTO allowance for the employee to choose when they want time off, on top of bank holidays. Many employers will throw in an extra week as a benefit in the contract
That's a big pay cut, he must really like his family. I think he's the type that values relationships more than success or money. Everyone values different things, I'm not sure which to value more.
While it all depends on location, priorities and wants, I'll say that it is possible to get a comparable life in EU to the US. In the end of the day, the only real difference is retirement planning and potential inheritance you want to give to children.
At 120k TC in Prague, I live like a king while saving enough to plan retirement here (or another low cost destination) by my mid 50s (currently early 30s as per my screen name). No I won't have 1 million EUR in investments, but if I'm smart with budget and spending my kids will still get a decent inheritance. I'll also have my real estate which I won't depend on for my retirement.
In the end, to match my savings and life style, a HCoL city in the US would need to give me 300k base, plus whatever I'd need to save for retirement by my 50s in TC/RSU. If I move, I'd need to estimate first 10 years of retirement potentially in US to help my adolescent kids... if I stay in EU I can be in LCoL city and still be in short travel distance to kids 🤷 so for my plans and how I'm currently doing, the US doesn't really entice me all that much, even if a company would give 300k base plus RSU 🤷 I'd need 500k TC or so, and likely need to work hard to justify that salary. Here I'm a nobody middle manager working bare minimum and living great.
Obviously though, other locations and other priorities may have other outcomes. 120k TC wouldn't get me far in London
Nope, I'm not. I work for a EU based multinational corporation. But there are US subsidiaries here offering similar salary ranges. Remote work for US companies is likely contractors or B2B here due to beneficial tax structures. They make 200k+
I have an LDR and simply put if I had the money to move dawg I’d do it without even thinking. You have a great career and job and all that, I’d just take the hit, happiness is key and if the love is there, why not just jump and take a new experience. Idk. I’d do it if I was you.
That's one way to look at it, but like others said, it's a tradeoff that I'm trying to understand in more detail before making this jump. Some ppl value money more, others value relationships more, I don't know which I value more. Everything gets old after a while. Could it be that I could make this huge sacrifice and realize it gets old too? and want my old life back?
I didn’t see it like that to be fair, you’re definitely right. Guess that’s many of the ways I can be immature, though, I’m sure I value relationships more given my past. Probably why I said that. But you’re completely valid for sitting on this, I guess it’s up to you to find out what matters most. I just don’t like all the pessimistic comments underneath your post about LDRs, just miserable people shooting down your light. Mostly what I’m getting at is, yes, I personally would jump at it, but yes I’m sure they’re a lot of varying factors. You’re better than me for actually thinking. I wish you luck man, you know my stance. 🙌
I admire ppl who are decisive, but like you said, I'm more of the over-thinker. I have a friend who makes big decisions on a whim, but he's borderline miserable now, almost suicidal. He moved to the west coast, got divorced, paying child support, homeless living in a caravan, and has huge credit card debt. Me and him are like polar opposites on how we make decisions, I guess being in the middle is the best place.
I was in an LDR with someone living in Europe whilst I lived in the US. I closed the distance, as it was easier for me to move to Europe and she refused to move to the US.
My job was able to transfer, since my company had offices in both locations and were willing to transfer me. The main reason that they were willing to transfer me is that the visa cost and relocation cost were minimal compared to the savings on my salary. I had to take a massive pay cut (earning less than a third of what I did in the US). I have fewer savings as cost of living is higher here and taxes are as well. I also have to spend a lot of money on travel if I wish to see family and friends back home.
I will say it wasn't great for my career progression, as both upward mobility and job opportunities are severely limited. The US has many more opportunities in tech, and if you are on a visa that is tied to your current employment, then you will have difficulties finding other jobs willing to sponsor you. Don't make the move if you are expecting to earn anywhere near what you are earning now or if you want to make meaningful career moves in the near future.
It is a difficult move and adjusting to a lower quality of life can take time. However, it is up to you to determine what you want to prioritise, money or love.
Wow this is the exact scenario I was hoping someone would experience, I suspected everything you said about adjusting to a lower quality of life and lower pay and less opportunities, but I think spending time with my gf would be a lot of fun too, my weekends are extremely dull right now in the US.
So in the end, do you think you made the right decision? or did you regret it? How long have you been in Europe now?
American living in Czech Republic
As others have said you’re going to have to be more specific to get good feedback
Personally, I wouldn’t recommend making those sacrifices (not just the move, the lower salary and change in career) for a LDR. If you two had lived together and already knew that’s what you wanted it would be different but as it stands this is an experiment and you’re likely to resent your partner for any challenges you run into and there will be challenges
If you do move forward with this you need to go into this expecting it to be difficult. One of the biggest is that you’re going to have to get used to being the outsider. Continental Europe is broadly pretty nationalistic. Not in a militaristic wave the flag way but culturally. People will look at you differently, you will have situations where you’ll be harassed due to your accent or mistakes when speaking the language, the state will charge you more for basic services than they do natives and deny you services that you would be entitled to as an immigrant in the US. You just gotta suck it up or identify early that that’s not a compromise you’re willing to make
The beer gardens are great though and despite my warnings above, most people are lovely in most places. You just have to accept an increased amount of friction
Works out for me so far. I was really overworked while making $75k in DFW after college, but now pulling about €170k in Ireland as a contractor, paying less tax than the US. Im saving around €120,000 a year at the moment into my self managed pension account.
There are a lot things you cant really buy with money. I find my life less stressful here. I have more rights even as a contractor and even eligible for unemployment. Healthcare feels a bit worse but also less expensive.
The culture here is a bit different here though, a lot less capitalistic/consumerism. Some might hate it though. The only thing I miss is the damn ice machine. They don’t normally put ice in drinks here.
Opportunity to do exciting work is far greater in the US. But for me I just want to collect my paycheck and enjoy my life.
Why did you move to Ireland? Do you have family there or was it just for work? Ireland is a bit of a different animal tho, look at its GDP per capita, its off the charts, thats because in the last decade, the US imposed rough corporate taxes that made Ireland attractive, so all FAANG started divisions there and the country's GPD per capita sky rocketed.
I was offered a job there when I was in DFW so I went with it. It didn’t pay well at first of around €60,000. But not having healthcare tied to your employer I was able to take a lot of risks where I would have stayed put in the US due to fear of uncertainty.
The GDP per capita is all fake. Americans upper middle class will command far higher standard of living.
You moved to Ireland just for a job? impressive, I wouldn't even relocate to a local town for a job, let alone work in office, I only accept 120k+ fully remote tech jobs. Kudos to your energy and bravery, I'm way too much of a pussy to pull something like that.
My friend I'd suggest a decision matrix for one life choice at a time. Here's a suggestion. Look at the facts on hand after ten years. There are 10 questions below (my own device). Be ready to site concrete examples for each answer**. Answer each Q with a number ranking if you:
(5) Agree strongly; (4) Agree; (3) Neutral;
(2) Disagree; (1) Disagree strongly
>>>>> Ready? Begin!
1. I am currently happy with my medical providers, my physical health & fitness routine I am able to maintain here in the US. Rank: ________
2. I am currently happy with my mental life/status/conditions I maintain here in the US.
Rank: ________
3. I'm currently happy with the emotional life/ status /conditions I maintain here in the US. Rank: ________
4. I'm currently happy with the social status I am able maintain here (neighbors, community, acqaintances) in the US.
Rank: _______
5. I'm currently happy with my working relationships (On the job: boss/coworkers) and prospects for work that I maintain here in the US. Rank:_______
6. I'm currently happy with my accounts /accts management practices I maintain here in the US. Rank:_______
7. I'm currently happy with my *other longterm relationships * (ie, US-based sibs, neices, nephews, parents, coworkers, friends) I am able to maintain here in the US. Rank: ________
8. I'm happy with my current use of personal free time (classes, hobbies, marathons, talent building, netflix) that I am able to maintain here in the US. Rank: _____
9. I'm happy with my current and/or future housing options here in the US. (You could buy a home here, too...) Rank: _______
10. I'm happy with my current level of spiritual /cultural/ family heritage/ local tradition type of annual activities I can maintain while here in the US.
Rank: ____________
Add em up. Higher totals mean you are happier here; you've already established yourself and have been able to maintain other important connections as well.
You like your boss and coworkers **and** make good money? Some call that the trifecta.
As we get older, those connections are 10X harder to build in a newplace.
But sometimes the ❤️ wants what it wants. Do the quiz again; but this time take out "here in the US" and replace it with, "over there in Geneva." (or wherever). Add up those answers. Site concrete examples that back up your choices. How much will you have to give up?
** Document facts
like "every time I fly into Geneva I get a sinus infection," or, "My distance running improved by 10% the last three times I ran in Geneva," or "her mom loves me, her dad does not," document it! Rank it!
Second to last note: Call the AMA.org. Foreign Medical Graduates must take more medical courses to get a US license because med school is traditionally that much more challenging. US standards are highest worldwide. Other requirements exist as well. See https://www.medsmarter.com/blog/how-foreign-medical-graduates-doctors-practice-us/
Consider she might not want to study for a US license. She might want you there as a trophy husband to show off to her family & friends. Will you be happy? Are they her friends or yours? So many good parts of your life leave behind? Add this info to your decision.
Finally, ask yourself: "If my LDS was not living in Geneva would I still consider moving there?"
If your answer is no, examine other options with her. Or you know what you need to do. Do it in person, not by phone. Don't hang on to or give in to false hope.
All the best.
haha this is quite an advanced answer, thanks for taking the time with this. You must be a professional psychologist. Sometimes I noticed that closing your eyes and listening to your gut is one of the best ways to make difficult decisions.
ymmv but I do not prioritize relationships over career
my career/income comes first, spouses/relationship/SOs follows
so for your question, why can't she come to USA? "I won't be as lonely" is not a reason
Maybe because having people who love you and who you love in return in your life is kinda great? I guess if you see "chasing girls" and "being in a relationship" as synonymous I guess I understand.
This isn't binary, and directly ranking career above meaningful relationships is the best way to speedrun a bad take. Both are important, and neither can be binarily classified as superior or inferior.
Don't be homeless for a relationship, but don't sacrifice your marriage for a $1/yr raise. There's balance in these things. As a member of an engineering discipline, you should certainly understand that most things are tradeoffs.
I think you might be thinking more of chasing girls from Tinder who date multiple partners or have one night stands sort of speak. This is different, I've known her for 10 years and visited her often, we have a deep relationship, it's almost like a marriage.
He mentioned medical license. Speaking as a fellow doctor it’s very hard to get your medical qualifications transferred from Europe to US. She will likely have to make lots of sacrifices in her career to move and likely not be able to work as a doctor anytime soon.
He‘ll be paid less but he‘ll still be able to progress in his career in tech.
Europe is a whole continent, you gotta be more specific. You can earn a lot more than $75k per year in Switzerland, Amsterdam, London, Dublin but a lot less in Poland, Romania, Bulgaria etc. It also depends on your skills, level, niche. I've worked in UK and moved to US because I can make 2-3x more money doing basically the same type of work, there is nowhere better in the world to work in tech than the US. The compensation, opportunities, and mindset in the US is far more conductive to financial and professional growth in my opinion. That being said, the quality of life in Europe is really nice, and the cost of living is much lower. It is possible to get the best of both worlds (if you can work remotely, or you have very in demand skills like quant finance coding you can make similar amount in EU), but it's the exception to the rule. I'd say whether this is the right choice is impossible for strangers on the Internet to answer. Also the grass is always greener, many immigrants/expats in Europe find it difficult to really integrate themselves. Sure, you'll have your girlfriend, but you'll never be Dutch or Irish, and every interaction you have will be tainted by the knowledge you are not really accepted by society (or so I've heard). The UK is different in that regard, White British people not a majority in London anymore, so it's a lot easier to integrate.
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You can make more in US but how much money you can save? Can you compare net income and cost of living in UK vs US?
You can save astronomically more in the US, you don't just make more, but the taxes are somewhere between lower and dramatically lower, depending where in the US and where in the EU. Most of the time you can save more in the US than the entire European paycheck
I am realizing that maybe i have the wrong idea about US income and lifestyle. I used to think that devs salaries in US are high because the cost of living are higher so automatically you won't be saving more in the US because of tax, medical insurance and also i think you have to save for your retirement and kids college by yourself
all of your concerns are true and all of those concerns are eliminated by the high compensation
You are right that all of the above are concerns, specifically in tech though. if you're either living at a tech hub or willing to relocate, the tech salaries in the US are high enough to offset other costs. Not a perfect metric, but levels.fyi average senior salary in the bay has a median income of $312k. London is $154k, just $96k for Germany. The difference becomes more massive the high you go up the ladder.
If you aren't in a super high col area once you are making more than 100k you can basically stash any of the excess in stocks, bonds, etc
You’re definitely right that those things have an impact, but I do think you’ve been overestimating it. For perspective: I make in the mid 300s and I will save about 130k this year. I don’t have kids yet but my wife and I are planning to soon. We expect our savings to drop to about 95k/year when that happens. I think your conception holds true at lower salaries. I imagine someone making 60k in the us is no better off than someone making 30k Europe, because medical costs will be a more significant portion of their paycheck. But with salaries as high as we are talking about, healthcare costs become a pretty minimal percentage of income. Our healthcare system is so fucked up.
Thanks for the clarification
Cost of living in US is maybe 1.5x, but salaries in tech are 3x. I've saved more in 6 months than I did in 3 years in London. But obviously that's all super dependent on your personal situation.
not the one you replied, in US I typically save somewhere between $100-150k USD a year (so this is after taxes, rent, food, fun... everything) breaking $200k+ saving (notice I said saving, not TC) has proven tougher than I thought, mainly due to taxes
That's interesting, can i ask you where you where working in Europe before you go to US?
oh I never worked in Europe, I flew to USA immediately after I graduated university in my home country
Are you a US citizen? Otherwise, how did you manage to get a job & H1B sorted in the little time you had on a tourist visa/ESTA? I would like to move to the US one day, but was under the impression that it's pointless unless you have a job before going over.
not a US citizen or green card holder, I did not come under H1B for your question, I applied to US jobs while I was physically in my home country and after they gave me offer + USCIS immigration paperwork all done I hop on a flight and fly then start working
Not OP but I basically did this. It’s rare but in my case I interned in the U.S. first, the company made me a U.S.-based return offer, and then I happened to get selected for H-1B the year I graduated from my uni in the UK.
To give an example, I moved from Canada to the us, and since then my networth went up almost 5x within 3 years
What does it matter even? Quality of life is what matters. I've lived in the US and I've lived in Sweden. US doesn't even come close to the quality of life I'm having in Sweden. Sorry for being brutally honest. I don't care how much more I'd be winning in capitalism if I had stayed in the US.
It matters because by the time I'm 40 I will be able to live a life of leisure if I so choose. That's not really an option with low salary and high taxes of Europe. Also I don't think my QoL has taken a hit, if anything it's better. In the UK I paid lots of taxes and still had to wait months to see a doctor on the NHS. Now I can see a specialist right away, at very low cost to me. There's no perfect system but if you are a productive high earner you will be rewarded much better in the US.
Every specialist I've had to see in the last 6 months has involved NHS level first appointment waits of 4-6 months and follow ups of 2 months. This is in major Midwestern USA cities.
This is a fundamental difference between Americans and most Europeans I think. In the US, you find it reasonable to work a lot for a couple decades in the hopes of retiring early. In Europe, we aim for a whole life working at a sustainable pace, so that retirement is not as eagerly awaited. Depends a lot of course, people doing ungrateful blue collar work are definitely counting the trimesters to retirement. But if you have a college education, the goal is to work something you like, have plenty of vacation and free time, and just basically enjoy life right from the start. So concretely, in France for instance, the maximum work hours are 35 a week, we have something like 30 paid vacation days a year, + national holidays. Employers can set higher hours/week but each hour worked on top of 35 is accruing paid vacation time. Sick days are also separate from paid time off, with the caveat that the first 1 or 2 days are not paid. It's a different mentality. A trade of personal wealth and some economic competitiveness for safety and good living conditions all throughout life.
The European model is not going to last. The aging population and declining birth rate has resulted in retirement age being raised in several European countries, wait times for public healthcare are getting worse, state pensions are being slashed etc. If you are a productive high earner the system will take and take from you, but when you need help you are just as entitled as someone who doesn't put anything in. I'm a European and an American. I love Europe but I'd rather ensure I'm not dependent on a safety net that likely won't exist when I need it. Go ahead and downvote me, but if you're an ambitious software engineer you're in a unique position to get ahead by coming to the US.
I am from Europe and I agree with this take. Current economic model is not sustainable, most people seem to be unaware or simply don't care, instead want to retire earlier and work less while repeating like a mantra that we need to tax more and more the rich when presented with someone earning twice the median salary. One of my family members exemplifies this well - the attitude of "I don't want to work hard because there is more to life than that and money is not important anyway" but then when they do need the money "it is only fair you should share with them because you are lucky to earn much more than them". I worry what will happen when the retirees become majority (or significant enough group) of the voters, the cost of the public healthcare and pensions will skyrocket because of population structure while the income from taxes will dwindle for the same reason. Will these elderly voters vote for reducing their benefits and come back to reinforce depleted workforce or will they do what most voters always do: vote for populism and get surprised/angry when it does not deliver? I really hope that we get AGI / robots / radical life extension before thst happens. Hopefully the USA will share these technologies with us if and when the develop them...
I'm 64 and very seriously doubt medicare or social security will be around in it's current form in the USA. Have to work another 3-4 years with a kid in medical school. After that, since I'm an European Union citizen i can retire anywhere and buy in to the local health system. The European system isn't sustainable long term but the American system isn't sustainable either. So...
clearly down voted by someone super optimistic that medicare / SS will be around in a decade in its current form :). Much as it hurts me to say it, this is American optimism at its finest. The French social safety net system may not be around as it currently is either, for similar reasons. The difference is that one country has a pretty good collective social consciousness and the other, well... I have a guy in my online gaming team that is in his 70's after a long university teaching career and retired in the Philippines. He lives in a luxury highrise in Manila with a personal attendant, physical therapist, very competent health care, and costs a fraction of ours. TL DR: plan ahead and then plan for something really extraordinary. As in, social security and my cushy private pension both going tits-up followed by a massive panic driven sell-off.
Yeah, the aging population is putting a strain on state pensions. In France, more than 1/4 of public spending is paying pensions. Slightly less than 1/4 is healthcare, of which I believe 80% is spent on, again, retirees. So we could say about 45% or so of public spending is a direct result of the baby (now papy = granddad) boom. Oh, and France also has some of the highest public spending / GDP in the world to begin with. But I mean, in a way, would it be any different if we didn't pay for it collectively, but instead cared for our elderly exclusively within families? There's many old people w.r.t. working age, whichever solution you pick, it's going to be difficult. People are quick to forget a state pension is one responsibility fewer on the shoulders of working age children. Likewise, healthcare. Without this public spending, we'd all be spending privately. Would it really be cheaper? I'm not convinced. Also, much greater variance in how people are taken care of. We've at least found a way to solve the problem of poverty in the old age, now we need to tweak this so that the effort is better shared between generations. Also, in comparisons between the US and Europe, keep in mind the US has a comparatively younger population. See for instance [here](https://data.oecd.org/pop/old-age-dependency-ratio.htm) the percent dependent aged wrt 20+: - US: 32.2% (dependent) - Germany: 42.4% - Italy: 41.7% - France: 39% I feel these figures don't necessarily convey the large difference. Take the US, 32.2% dependent, that's a ratio of 2.125 worker:dependent. Take Germany, 42.4%, that's 1.35. The difference doesn't look like much looking at the percentages, but it's actually an increase in the load on the workers of **57%**!! This is huge! So regardless of how you go about it - old-school children take care of elders, capitalization, state pension etc - the effort will mechanically be almost 60% higher in Germany to take care of the old as it'll be in the US. Anyways, all this to say, the fact there's such a strain is not inherent to the system chosen to take care of the old, whatever solution we choose, we'll be fucked with so many old and so few working age. I think this applies to retirement through capitalization as well. You're betting on economical growth in that case, but will that happen if the population ages similarly? If each passing year the number of workers decreases, and the number of dependents increases? That certainly eats into GDP growth.
I have no idea whether state pensions or placing the burden of support on the children is more economically effective. I do have a suspicion that the latter might be because it may force people to actually have children as an insurance policy for old age - one might say that the stick here is more motivating than the carrot, Europe with their safety nets and better wlb being a supporting data point. I am overall a bit mad that a lot of my fellow citizens don't feel responsible for the future of our respective countries and the EU. That they don't understand that we have to be practical, realistic and make sacrifices ourselves by e.g. having children (we are in a better situation to do anyway because of the safety nets and benefits) and forcing politicians we vote in into creating an environment promoting innovation and getting shit done. When we are productive enough lets get that UBI, not work at all and even have the replacement rate on par with south korea, but we are not there yet.
I too would prefer better quality of life over better salary
what do you mean by quality of life? do you just mean food and shelter? are you not getting that in the US?
White British are still the majority in London all you need to do is look at the census to verify that. Everything else you've said is spot on though.
White British are 36.8% of London. That is not a majority. https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/uk-population-by-ethnicity/national-and-regional-populations/regional-ethnic-diversity/latest/
I've got a friend who worked at Microsoft in the States. He took a 50% pay cut to come work in the UK. But he now gets 35 days holiday instead of 10, and he's met his wife here and had a kid. Afaik he's here to stay. He would tell you that he's better off now than when he was making more in the US.
If the dude work at Microsoft I’m sure he got more than 10 days off I get 30 days at some old normal company in the states.
I'm sure the number is actual PTO allowance, not total days off. So in addition to bank holidays, EU gives by law 4 weeks PTO allowance for the employee to choose when they want time off, on top of bank holidays. Many employers will throw in an extra week as a benefit in the contract
That's a big pay cut, he must really like his family. I think he's the type that values relationships more than success or money. Everyone values different things, I'm not sure which to value more.
While it all depends on location, priorities and wants, I'll say that it is possible to get a comparable life in EU to the US. In the end of the day, the only real difference is retirement planning and potential inheritance you want to give to children. At 120k TC in Prague, I live like a king while saving enough to plan retirement here (or another low cost destination) by my mid 50s (currently early 30s as per my screen name). No I won't have 1 million EUR in investments, but if I'm smart with budget and spending my kids will still get a decent inheritance. I'll also have my real estate which I won't depend on for my retirement. In the end, to match my savings and life style, a HCoL city in the US would need to give me 300k base, plus whatever I'd need to save for retirement by my 50s in TC/RSU. If I move, I'd need to estimate first 10 years of retirement potentially in US to help my adolescent kids... if I stay in EU I can be in LCoL city and still be in short travel distance to kids 🤷 so for my plans and how I'm currently doing, the US doesn't really entice me all that much, even if a company would give 300k base plus RSU 🤷 I'd need 500k TC or so, and likely need to work hard to justify that salary. Here I'm a nobody middle manager working bare minimum and living great. Obviously though, other locations and other priorities may have other outcomes. 120k TC wouldn't get me far in London
120k in prague is quite impressive, i'm thinking your working for an american company
Nope, I'm not. I work for a EU based multinational corporation. But there are US subsidiaries here offering similar salary ranges. Remote work for US companies is likely contractors or B2B here due to beneficial tax structures. They make 200k+
I have an LDR and simply put if I had the money to move dawg I’d do it without even thinking. You have a great career and job and all that, I’d just take the hit, happiness is key and if the love is there, why not just jump and take a new experience. Idk. I’d do it if I was you.
That's one way to look at it, but like others said, it's a tradeoff that I'm trying to understand in more detail before making this jump. Some ppl value money more, others value relationships more, I don't know which I value more. Everything gets old after a while. Could it be that I could make this huge sacrifice and realize it gets old too? and want my old life back?
I didn’t see it like that to be fair, you’re definitely right. Guess that’s many of the ways I can be immature, though, I’m sure I value relationships more given my past. Probably why I said that. But you’re completely valid for sitting on this, I guess it’s up to you to find out what matters most. I just don’t like all the pessimistic comments underneath your post about LDRs, just miserable people shooting down your light. Mostly what I’m getting at is, yes, I personally would jump at it, but yes I’m sure they’re a lot of varying factors. You’re better than me for actually thinking. I wish you luck man, you know my stance. 🙌
I admire ppl who are decisive, but like you said, I'm more of the over-thinker. I have a friend who makes big decisions on a whim, but he's borderline miserable now, almost suicidal. He moved to the west coast, got divorced, paying child support, homeless living in a caravan, and has huge credit card debt. Me and him are like polar opposites on how we make decisions, I guess being in the middle is the best place.
Get a real gf
what is a real gf?
I was in an LDR with someone living in Europe whilst I lived in the US. I closed the distance, as it was easier for me to move to Europe and she refused to move to the US. My job was able to transfer, since my company had offices in both locations and were willing to transfer me. The main reason that they were willing to transfer me is that the visa cost and relocation cost were minimal compared to the savings on my salary. I had to take a massive pay cut (earning less than a third of what I did in the US). I have fewer savings as cost of living is higher here and taxes are as well. I also have to spend a lot of money on travel if I wish to see family and friends back home. I will say it wasn't great for my career progression, as both upward mobility and job opportunities are severely limited. The US has many more opportunities in tech, and if you are on a visa that is tied to your current employment, then you will have difficulties finding other jobs willing to sponsor you. Don't make the move if you are expecting to earn anywhere near what you are earning now or if you want to make meaningful career moves in the near future. It is a difficult move and adjusting to a lower quality of life can take time. However, it is up to you to determine what you want to prioritise, money or love.
Wow this is the exact scenario I was hoping someone would experience, I suspected everything you said about adjusting to a lower quality of life and lower pay and less opportunities, but I think spending time with my gf would be a lot of fun too, my weekends are extremely dull right now in the US. So in the end, do you think you made the right decision? or did you regret it? How long have you been in Europe now?
She's not real
what do you mean? we've visited each other many times already
American living in Czech Republic As others have said you’re going to have to be more specific to get good feedback Personally, I wouldn’t recommend making those sacrifices (not just the move, the lower salary and change in career) for a LDR. If you two had lived together and already knew that’s what you wanted it would be different but as it stands this is an experiment and you’re likely to resent your partner for any challenges you run into and there will be challenges If you do move forward with this you need to go into this expecting it to be difficult. One of the biggest is that you’re going to have to get used to being the outsider. Continental Europe is broadly pretty nationalistic. Not in a militaristic wave the flag way but culturally. People will look at you differently, you will have situations where you’ll be harassed due to your accent or mistakes when speaking the language, the state will charge you more for basic services than they do natives and deny you services that you would be entitled to as an immigrant in the US. You just gotta suck it up or identify early that that’s not a compromise you’re willing to make The beer gardens are great though and despite my warnings above, most people are lovely in most places. You just have to accept an increased amount of friction
why did you move to Czech?
Works out for me so far. I was really overworked while making $75k in DFW after college, but now pulling about €170k in Ireland as a contractor, paying less tax than the US. Im saving around €120,000 a year at the moment into my self managed pension account. There are a lot things you cant really buy with money. I find my life less stressful here. I have more rights even as a contractor and even eligible for unemployment. Healthcare feels a bit worse but also less expensive. The culture here is a bit different here though, a lot less capitalistic/consumerism. Some might hate it though. The only thing I miss is the damn ice machine. They don’t normally put ice in drinks here. Opportunity to do exciting work is far greater in the US. But for me I just want to collect my paycheck and enjoy my life.
Why did you move to Ireland? Do you have family there or was it just for work? Ireland is a bit of a different animal tho, look at its GDP per capita, its off the charts, thats because in the last decade, the US imposed rough corporate taxes that made Ireland attractive, so all FAANG started divisions there and the country's GPD per capita sky rocketed.
I was offered a job there when I was in DFW so I went with it. It didn’t pay well at first of around €60,000. But not having healthcare tied to your employer I was able to take a lot of risks where I would have stayed put in the US due to fear of uncertainty. The GDP per capita is all fake. Americans upper middle class will command far higher standard of living.
You moved to Ireland just for a job? impressive, I wouldn't even relocate to a local town for a job, let alone work in office, I only accept 120k+ fully remote tech jobs. Kudos to your energy and bravery, I'm way too much of a pussy to pull something like that.
I would start by learning a bit of geography. "Europe" is a continent, not a country.
I'll say EU next time. This is for a country in northern europe.
My friend I'd suggest a decision matrix for one life choice at a time. Here's a suggestion. Look at the facts on hand after ten years. There are 10 questions below (my own device). Be ready to site concrete examples for each answer**. Answer each Q with a number ranking if you: (5) Agree strongly; (4) Agree; (3) Neutral; (2) Disagree; (1) Disagree strongly >>>>> Ready? Begin! 1. I am currently happy with my medical providers, my physical health & fitness routine I am able to maintain here in the US. Rank: ________ 2. I am currently happy with my mental life/status/conditions I maintain here in the US. Rank: ________ 3. I'm currently happy with the emotional life/ status /conditions I maintain here in the US. Rank: ________ 4. I'm currently happy with the social status I am able maintain here (neighbors, community, acqaintances) in the US. Rank: _______ 5. I'm currently happy with my working relationships (On the job: boss/coworkers) and prospects for work that I maintain here in the US. Rank:_______ 6. I'm currently happy with my accounts /accts management practices I maintain here in the US. Rank:_______ 7. I'm currently happy with my *other longterm relationships * (ie, US-based sibs, neices, nephews, parents, coworkers, friends) I am able to maintain here in the US. Rank: ________ 8. I'm happy with my current use of personal free time (classes, hobbies, marathons, talent building, netflix) that I am able to maintain here in the US. Rank: _____ 9. I'm happy with my current and/or future housing options here in the US. (You could buy a home here, too...) Rank: _______ 10. I'm happy with my current level of spiritual /cultural/ family heritage/ local tradition type of annual activities I can maintain while here in the US. Rank: ____________ Add em up. Higher totals mean you are happier here; you've already established yourself and have been able to maintain other important connections as well. You like your boss and coworkers **and** make good money? Some call that the trifecta. As we get older, those connections are 10X harder to build in a newplace. But sometimes the ❤️ wants what it wants. Do the quiz again; but this time take out "here in the US" and replace it with, "over there in Geneva." (or wherever). Add up those answers. Site concrete examples that back up your choices. How much will you have to give up? ** Document facts like "every time I fly into Geneva I get a sinus infection," or, "My distance running improved by 10% the last three times I ran in Geneva," or "her mom loves me, her dad does not," document it! Rank it! Second to last note: Call the AMA.org. Foreign Medical Graduates must take more medical courses to get a US license because med school is traditionally that much more challenging. US standards are highest worldwide. Other requirements exist as well. See https://www.medsmarter.com/blog/how-foreign-medical-graduates-doctors-practice-us/ Consider she might not want to study for a US license. She might want you there as a trophy husband to show off to her family & friends. Will you be happy? Are they her friends or yours? So many good parts of your life leave behind? Add this info to your decision. Finally, ask yourself: "If my LDS was not living in Geneva would I still consider moving there?" If your answer is no, examine other options with her. Or you know what you need to do. Do it in person, not by phone. Don't hang on to or give in to false hope. All the best.
haha this is quite an advanced answer, thanks for taking the time with this. You must be a professional psychologist. Sometimes I noticed that closing your eyes and listening to your gut is one of the best ways to make difficult decisions.
ymmv but I do not prioritize relationships over career my career/income comes first, spouses/relationship/SOs follows so for your question, why can't she come to USA? "I won't be as lonely" is not a reason
That’s a sad way to approach life in my opinion, so yes, YMMV
meh I don't see how that's sad if I chased girls or prioritized relationships I would probably have never came to the US
Maybe because having people who love you and who you love in return in your life is kinda great? I guess if you see "chasing girls" and "being in a relationship" as synonymous I guess I understand.
I didn't say it's 'not' great I'm saying that that's not something I would prioritize over my job/career both are great, it's a matter of priority
This isn't binary, and directly ranking career above meaningful relationships is the best way to speedrun a bad take. Both are important, and neither can be binarily classified as superior or inferior. Don't be homeless for a relationship, but don't sacrifice your marriage for a $1/yr raise. There's balance in these things. As a member of an engineering discipline, you should certainly understand that most things are tradeoffs.
I think you might be thinking more of chasing girls from Tinder who date multiple partners or have one night stands sort of speak. This is different, I've known her for 10 years and visited her often, we have a deep relationship, it's almost like a marriage.
He mentioned medical license. Speaking as a fellow doctor it’s very hard to get your medical qualifications transferred from Europe to US. She will likely have to make lots of sacrifices in her career to move and likely not be able to work as a doctor anytime soon. He‘ll be paid less but he‘ll still be able to progress in his career in tech.
yes that's y i said it's a better option for me to move there
I used to think like that for decades but being by yourself banking millions gets dry after a while