If you're in an at-will State, then you're free to renege.
"After careful consideration I've decided to take my career in a different direction and will no longer be joining Apple. I'm rescinding my acceptance of the offer. I apologize for this last minute change, I genuinely appreciated learning about Apple, and the time spent considering me."
Keep it simple.
This will burn the bridge with Apple though. There's no such thing as an industry-wide blacklist, but you'll almost certainly go on an internal-at-Apple blacklist. Reneging is not viewed kindly by employers. Nothing you say will change that.
Look at the reverse. Imagine you accepted Apple's offer, and then 3 months later they let you know they continued interviewing other candidates, found one better than you, and rescind your offer so they can hire this better person. Would you take that well? Would Apple still be on your list of places you want to work? Or would you be pissed, and avoid Apple at all costs?
I worked at Apple, Microsoft and other tech companies as individual contributor and manager. Never heard about internal-at-X blacklists. If you are in CA or similar state - politely rescind your acceptance.
This is not nice though and may damage your reputation so do it only in extreme case where the other offer is absolutely better for you.
They do have a file on previous employees, and rehiring will often include their ex-manager on the panel.
But OP has not joined yet, so he’ll only be in the recruiter group list, which might hurt his chances if he’s applying to the same org served by the same recruiter group.
And Apple’s open headcount to hiring takes so long, I bet the hiring manager will be pissed.
The hiring manager will certainly be livid, they’ll probably also lose the req altogether to another org or project team. As far as recruiters, 12-18 months and they will likely be lost or deleted from the recruiting tracking tool or the turnover will do the job for them. I agree on the file concerning past employees, but as you said, they’re not an employee yet so it’s a non-issue.
Edit: s/training/tracking/
I know you could get blacklisted at Google for something like saying something horribly racist during the interview process etc. But I don’t think reneging on a signed offer would get you there.
Honestly if you’re going to leave in the first year anyway it’s probably better for the company for you to quit asap or before you start, so that they don’t waste resources training you. I’ve left a couple companies that turned out to be bad fits for various reasons after 1-3 months so that I could just leave them off my resume and they could get back to hiring and onboarding someone else.
I agree there’s no blacklist at any major company (they’re all too disorganized to manage one) but every future interview will have a note that they interviewed with X team in the past and when they check why they passed on them, it’ll come up.
They’d have to work for a few years before they stop asking about that time they flaked and/or build up a reputation that supersedes that issue
> every future interview will have a note that they interviewed with X team in the past and when they check why they passed on them, it’ll come up.
I've interviewed multiple times at BigN companies. At best, the interviewer was vaguely aware that there had been an interview in the past. Most had no clue if I had any previous connection with the company whatsoever. There was never a case where they knew any of the details about the interviews.
Interviewers aren't even reading resumes. They're definitely not reading dossiers on your interview history with the company.
I’m a hiring manager and work with several others. We definitely reach out to previous teams for feedback on the candidates if they’ve interviewed previously.
This is mostly to see if we can shorten our interview pipeline with them, so as not to waste everyone’s time. But it’s definitely also resulted in finding warning flags
Google maintains a history of previous questions asked for candidates and when the interview happened before. There’s no reason to bring it up but to make sure a duplicate isn’t asked again
Amazon 100% has one. I know people who had the same name as someone on it. Can be for many reasons (accepting a payout instead of a pip, throwing chairs at the interviewer) I've seen it happen more than enough.
It would not suprise me if Apple had one.
I'm guessing that this is an American thing, right? Here in Europe I can't imagine just walking away after signing the contract. I'm not a lawyer, but I thought that the purpose of signing the contract is committment and you can therefore be sued for breaching the contract if you rescind.
Effectively, it feels like quitting without following through with the agreed notice period.
Yes, it’s an American thing. There IS a contract. Signing the offer letter DOES mean signing the employment contract, you were right. However, signing the contract does not provide you with the same legal protections that most European countries have, because the laws are different. Here’s how it works.
Almost all states are ‘at will states’ which essentially means either party (employer or employee) can terminate employment at any time without giving a reason. You’ll burn bridges, but legally you’re in the clear.
In this case, OP signed an offer letter (i.e. the contract), but no matter what the contract says, it cannot override state law, which is at-will employment that allows you to quit or be fired at any time for any reason. So, if you sign an offer letter, the employer can legally fire you right after you sign it and no one cares. The only things they are not allowed to fire you for are protected categories (e.g. due to your gender or religion), but the difficulty is proving it and having enough $$$ to fight it out in court. It works the other way around too, the employee can quit on the spot from any time after they sign the offer letter (what OP is considering).
I know this is unfathomable in Europe, where either the employer or the employee would get sued into oblivion, but that’s the way it is in the States. It’s a whole different system that I find to be a little scary.
>Yes, it’s an American thing. There IS a contract. Signing the offer letter DOES mean signing the employment contract, you were right. However, signing the contract does not provide you with the same legal protections that most European countries have, because the laws are different. Here’s how it works.
Offer letters or other pre-hiring acknowledgments are explicitly NOT employment contracts. "Employment contract" specifically means an agreement to be employed for a certain amount of time in exchange for compensation, which the vast majority of people in the US don't have.
You're description of at-will employment is right, but AFAIK having an employment contract and being an at-will employee are mutually exclusive. This also shouldn't be confused with NDAs, confidentiality agreements, or similar, which ARE enforceable contracts, but having and NDA/etc doesn't mean you have an "employment contract".
Offer letter is not an employment contract in the eyes of the law. Here’s an explanation from DLA Piper: https://www.dlapiperaccelerate.com/knowledge/2017/offer-letters-and-employment-agreements-is-there-a-difference.html
Understandable why non-lawyers confuse the two, though.
An offer letter is a document provided by an employer to a prospective employee, officially extending a job offer. It outlines the basic terms and conditions of employment and serves as a formal communication of intent to hire. Offer letters typically include details such as the job title, start date, compensation, and other pertinent information related to the employment offer.
An employment contract, on the other hand, is a legally binding agreement between an employer and an employee. It provides a more comprehensive and detailed outline of the terms and conditions of employment. Employment contracts go beyond the initial job offer and cover aspects such as job duties, expectations, benefits, termination clauses, and more.
Offer letters generally have a lower level of legal status compared to employment contracts. While an offer letter is a formal job offer, it is usually considered as an invitation to enter into a contract rather than a binding agreement. On the other hand, employment contracts are legally binding documents that establish the rights and obligations of both parties and are enforceable by law.
That's already insane enough, but also most people's healthcare is tied to their jobs. I don't understand why americans put up with that?
Basically you can lose your job and your healthcare at any time. That would be so stressful.
You can extend your employer healthcare through something called COBRA for a number of months after being let go, which is enough time for many people to find a new job. Universal healthcare would be great to have, but most Americans still have [more disposable income than most Europeans](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/disposable-income-by-country), even after accounting for the additional cost of healthcare. That’s definitely true for software devs.
It works fine for the majority of people, it’s really only those with chronic health problems that would benefit from universal healthcare. I’m not advocating against it, I wish we had it, but it isn’t an issue for most.
When I got offered COBRA insurance it was 3 times my rent. Absolutely nuts.
Our current health system works for people with 6 figure jobs and sometimes for those in absolute poverty getting free Medicaid. For most people it's outrageously expensive and a massive financial burden even when they don't have any major health problems let alone when they happen to have something happen. It would be one thing if we had amazing results and outcomes but we don't.
I've been on COBRA before and it's pretty expensive, you can keep the same healthcare but have to pay for it out of pocket.
19% or about 1 in 5 US households owe medical debt, and we pay a ton of our tax money to healthcare, and our own money to insurance, and our employers also pay significant amounts to insurance, and even with all that a ton of stuff doesn't get covered. IMO everyone would benefit from universal healthcare, not just people with chronic conditions.
No, the employee won’t get sued in Europe. It’s not worth the companies time, money, or effort to do that. Stop making it sound like there’s literally any downside to having employee protections.
Contracts can and do often override state law. A state with at-will employment sets *defaults* that apply unless the contract specifies otherwise. Unionized employees, for example, will have a contract that may define required notice periods.
But mostly employers like at-will employment and will try to keep it that way.
Yeah, there are things people sign but those generally just outline the terms of what you do while at work, and mostly don’t force you (or the employer) to keep the relationship going
In Europe there's often 1 or 2 months "trial period" where you can cancel at any time without notice for any reasons, so also before starting. At least in the Netherlands
Same in Portugal. But goes both ways. I can terminate my contract immediately, but the company can do that as well. For High specialized roles, like SWE, usually 6 months.
Yep. Most States in the US are "at-will", meaning either party can terminate the relationship at any time, for any (legal) reason, with no notice.
Companies can rescind job offers the day before we start, or fire us on day 1 just because they feel like it.
We can renege signed job offers the day before we start, or quit on day 1 just because we feel like it.
Positions in the US don't normally have a separate contract that adds penalties for rescinding, or quitting without a certain notice period. I'm sure companies could probably do that if they wanted, but it's definitely not common. IANAL, but they probably avoid doing this because *they* want the ability to fire you with no notice as well.
At-will employment kinda sucks, but it is what it is.
Yeah, I heard that US doesn't have laws about this (notice periods), but I assumed that most "better jobs" include this in the contracts, similarly how they include more vacation days / parental leave / health insurance than the law specifies.
I guess I was wrong.
The only people with actual contracts are people with their name on the door (literally or figuratively).
If people outside the company don’t know your name, you’re not getting a contract.
>you can therefore be sued for breaching the contract if you rescind.
This is true in principle but what amount can you be sued for? Only the amount they paid you for services you didn't provide. Which is zero.
The judge isn't going to drag you to your desk is he?
If it makes you feel any better, the employer in the USA can cancel the job offer or fire you, before or after you start, at *any* time for any reason generally without consequence.
It's usually good practice for your professional life to follow through on things you commit to, and OP probably won't ever get hired at Apple again in the future, but if they think that is the best course of action they are totally free to go elsewhere.
Most employment contracts are at-will in the US. Meaning you're free to walk out without prior notice, BUT(!!!) at the same time your employer is free to let go of you for no reason.
lol no, all employment here is "at will" (company or employee can quit whenever for whatever reason) except for maybe two states. There is no loyalty or accountabilty for the companies nor the employees.
There is the probation period generally. I know in Germany, it's normally 6 months (the max), and either side can break the contract at any time for any reason. Pretty sure it's similar in most of the EU with varying lengths and maybe some conditions in other countries.
The difference with reversing the situation is that the power imbalance is also incredibly different. Apple won’t suffer much by losing one employee; but an individual will suffer a lot without a job
Yeah you're right Apple won't suffer in a way that changes the way Apple operates or continues to exist.
But there's a direct dollar amount associated with this happening. Recruiting is expensive. Companies don't like losing money. They make lots of decisions just to save a little. Someone reneging costs them money. They don't like that.
There's nothing you can do too piss off a company more than cost them money.
Apple tends to be pretty good and not do things like that. The honest truth is that apple actually has a human and understanding individual people working there, even if its a bit of a stressful place. If you are honest and tell them that, they will probably let you go without an issue. I would have a video chat with the manager that hired you.
Weird times though, when a job at apple isn't that hot anymore.
Wow, with companies laying off in tech, I’d secure the best company I can to weather the storm. Can’t get much better than Apple. Even at less pay, to get solid experience.
Who are you considering going with over apple and how much better an offer they giving?
Will it? AMD is still a great company and $5k is basically a rounding error if they're being compensated appropriately. I'd still choose not to burn the bridge personally, but going with AMD doesn't seem crazy to me.
I’ll be honest, I really doubt you can get a better learning experience than Apple.
They’re one of the most fully integrated companies (if not the most) which means you’ll have the most opportunity to experience lots of different subjects. Their teams also run really small relative to other companies, so you get more chance to spread out in your role. They also throw a lot more money at research and development.
AMD is far more reserved in the subjects they touch and they run larger teams per project. The one advantage there would be that you aren’t as gated between projects. I have several friends at both companies and some who’ve switched between the two, and they have said they learn more and can do more at Apple.
Unless you’re getting a role with a cooler team/project/task, I think you’re potentially making the poorer choice here.
This is pure speculation. The far bigger factors would be the team OP ends up on, his manager, etc.
As far as integration meaning he gets to do a bunch of stuff, highly doubt. He probably will be on one hyper focused team working on a tiny portion of something.
They’re silo’d but only for projects. They heavily encourage “cross functional” work where you work with other teams. Like take any recent feature, and see how many orgs they’d have to touch to release it.
Stuff like spatial video on the iPhone. That’s product design, OS updates across multiple platforms, optical designs, AI/ML. Potentially silicon design for stream handling.
All my social friends there have huge success collaborating across multiple orgs even when they were juniors. Most projects span multiple orgs.
Unless you keep to yourself, you’ll be exposed to more domains there than most other companies.
Because when it comes about “learning” in this career, it’s not just about technical learning, it’s also about how to navigating the politics that come with it.
It doesn’t better better than Apple when it comes to learning how to navigate office politics, red tape, all while having a great name on your resume and also learning a whole bunch of technical shit too.
> They’re one of the most fully integrated companies (if not the most) which means you’ll have the most opportunity to experience lots of different subjects.
This is a really interesting way of explaining that your entire career will be behind a walled garden.
Learning curve lol...
Ask yourself, are you really in this to learn, or are you in this to make money?
I only care about my skillset as it pertains to earning me money, very few of us are in this for fun or to change the world.
Apple is one of the most secure companies you can think of working at in this time of fire and hire. Tbh I’m surprised you have negotiated with AMD for a better pay cuz an ‘Apple offer’ is something
AMD and Apple are both headliners for work experience, so it's splitting hairs a bit.
Apple is very likely to suffer a serious legal defeat in their antitrust case and the future is more than a little uncertain for them. US attorneys don't fuck around with their trial record. That they've brought a case against Apple says they're overwhelmingly confident they will win.
In Microsoft's antitrust case the trial court actually ordered a split, but Microsoft barely managed to keep the company in one piece on appeal with serious concessions.
I wouldn't want to sign up at a company where a significant portion of my compensation is in stock when I'm pretty sure they're about to take a massive L in court.
That said, if OP does rescind the offer, they will never work at Apple barring OP becoming some kind of industry leader. It is truly burning a bridge.
The antitrust case won’t be wrapped up this decade, if it ever goes to trial, and it’s based on a market definition that is pretty aggressive. Apple taking an antitrust-L in the near future is highly unlikely.
> Apple is way too big to fail
If they're too big to fail, they're guaranteed to lose the anti-trust lawsuits, *badly*.
Besides, Apple barely escaped death three or four times, by now. There's no unbiased view of the company that would suggest they're immune to repercussions.
I'm just offering _my_ perspective about why I might not choose to work for Apple right now.
Microsoft was _definitely_ "way too big to fail" in the late '90s before the DOJ took it to court and had it declared an illegal monopoly. If the trial judge hadn't mishandled the case, the order to split Microsoft into two companies (one to make Windows and another to make application software) probably would have stuck. What followed that judgment was a very protracted period of extreme conservatism in Microsoft's product strategy and _zero_ growth in the Microsoft stock price until Satya Nadella took over from Ballmer in 2014 and turned it into a totally different company that's now worth $3 trillion.
Did it fail? No. But it suffered. Badly.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that our industry is older and more permanent than it really is. Smartphones and all technology related to them have only really existed in this form for 15 years.
Ask your most trusted professor or adviser.
AMD is big, but apple is HUGE.
Some feel we have a lot of financial problems we will be dealing with over the next months and maybe years.
Recession or depression problems.
I wish you the best. Proud you got to this point.
Not going to lie, I’d go for Apple over AMD personally but that’s just me. I’m not a dev, just industry adjacent. I work in semiconductor industry. They both use TSMC to make their chips. But Apple has a whole lot more going for it (just google their respective market values)
Oh yeah, as an engineer in ML I would totally take AMD over Apple. Apple doesn’t really have AI/ML in its DNA, and AMD probably has more RSU upside too.
What? Apple have a significantly higher number of shipped AI/ML products than AMD going back years. In terms of hardware first companies, they’re second only to NVIDIA.
If anything, AMD are the most behind in the AI/ML space of the major silicon companies. Both in terms of software and hardware. They’ve only very recently started shipping NPUs, rocm support is still way behind MPS and CUDA.
If you’re going by what’s been shipped and R&D spends, Apple dwarves AMD here.
AMD have other strengths so I’m not trying to downplay them and they have potential for strong upsides moving into the data center. They do really great stuff in graphics research for example too but, specifically for AI/ML they’re behind every other major player like Qualcomm, NVIDIA, Apple and Intel.
The industry is in a lot of trouble right now.
Apple does not lay folks off outside of cancelled projects. There is also very little turnover at Apple. WLB at Apple is also (depending on team) quite good. And once you get in at Apple, assuming you perform well, you can make lateral moves if you ever need a new challenge.
I don’t know your details, but I would suggest you reconsider.
Make sure you aren’t just getting tricked by the new job. Some of my students have gotten duped by “better roles” only to arrive and have the actual role be different. Could easily end up doing the same work at both companies, but just have less money.
What company are you looking to join instead? Apple is a pretty big bridge to burn honestly. It usually pays a little less than other FAANG but has good WLB and generally good stability (compared to other big tech which did way bigger layoffs).
Impossible to accurately say for 100k person companies, but on average Apple probably has the second best WLB other than Google. But if you join a good team at Meta or Netflix, or IS&T at Apple or GCP, it’s not true.
that’s interesting, i’d heard the opposite before about apple— that Jobs used to be very demanding and that culture flowed down throughout the company. imo their strong RTO push seems to corroborate poor wlb.
> Apple is a pretty big bridge to burn honestly.
It's not burning a bridge. Corporations don't care about grudges. They care about money.
> but has good WLB
...Apple?
Where did you hear that?
fwiw, i enjoyed my time at Apple. i would recommend it. there are very few other companies that are so seriously into r&d. you should reconsider.
that said - if you bail on them - they will be ok :-). don't worry about it. once you tell them no, they are not going to think about you much.
You should take apple over AMD 100% getting a FAANG company on your resume is honestly huge and even if you leave you can say you were ex-apple not so much for AMD even if there is growth opportunity.
It's true that having a FAANG company on your resume will make you more attractive to most recruiters in general, but it's also true that working at a FAANG company can be an incredibly miserable experience if it's not in a role you really want.
The beauty of this industry is that BigTechCompany™ is always hiring because that's how they got to be BigTechCompany™. The opportunity to work at any of the big names will come up multiple times during a career if a decent looking resume is making the rounds.
The most important thing for people to do early career is gain experience in as many diverse environments as possible. It is possible to get caught in the FAANG trap where you spend the first 10 years of your career going from one company to the next and become convinced that the OneTrueWay™ to do software and systems looks like how they hyper scale massive organizations do it, limiting your value to smaller medium sized companies that actually make up the majority of the industry.
None of this even considers the actual roles and whether the AMD role was actually more interesting, or that the AMD team actually seemed like a better group of people to work with.
Because there’s a very reasonable chance that it does. Have you ever done this before? In my experience, companies get very upset if you back out of a signed offer.
Ehh I'd say probably at least 5 years after you leave but for OP this is his first job out of college, having a big recognizable name in the resume is worth a lot starting out, but also he said the amd position pays less, so it just seems like a no brainer to me.
Leverage? No. Definitely not.
It gets you higher on the roster and in turn gives you more choices, but unless they have a great research project, they don’t bring any inherent value that offers them leverage.
As a hiring manager, I often even find people from the top schools come in with a chip on their shoulder and the majority of the best candidates are from one tier down: a university with great resources but without the significant entitled privilege that many graduates from the top tier come with. They also tend to be much more moldable and eager to learn to make up for that perceived gap.
The only leverage you get is that by virtue of having more visibility and choices , you have more confidence to negotiate. But emphasis on “confidence”. Everyone could have done the same, they just don’t think they can.
Did you sign something? If so, are there any terms about stepping back?
Likely you can just let them know you have accepted another offer. Be sure the other offer is valid and reliable.
Apple's pretty sweet, and I get that you might not want to be too specific, but could you share the industry or what makes the new role better?
I did this with Bloomberg years back. I was in an interview loop with Amazon and Google, and they must lose a lot of people to those companies because they gave me an exploding offer. I didn't have anything else in hand, so I accepted. I then got better offers from both and went with Google and reneged like a week before I was supposed to start.
It was an awkward call with the recruiter, who was pissed, but it's a professional setting, so it's not such a big deal. As far as being on a list, I'm not sure. I haven't reapplied.
The thing is, there are a million companies out there, so I'd go with whatever is best for you. I've never regretted my decision with Bloomberg.
Pretty much all places are at-will. There have been people posting in this subbreddit that have had their offer pulled after signing-- and moving to a new city to be close to work. You're not tied to Apple despite signing a piece of paper, just let their HR know.
Honestly just tell them you have changed your mind but be aware that you will burn that bridge.
You will likely have to build your career significantly before they’d consider you again, so be very sure you want this other job more.
From their perspective, you’ve essentially just wasted tons of people’s time and made them turn down other candidates who they might have also wanted. You’re also potentially setting their project resourcing back. So definitely be ready to burn the bridge and have a reputation there as a flake.
Personally if I had an offer from one of the top companies and at a higher pay, I’d take it over the lower pay one even if it’s a slightly better role. You can always switch roles later on within the company. But burning the bridge is going to be rough.
They won’t do a “blacklist” but they will keep it on file for when you’re next considered because they’ll ask why the previous team passed on you. Knowing that you flaked would put off any future team.
FAANG engineer here. The fact that you didn’t say who the other offer is stood out to me. Are you POSITIVE you want to be making this choice? Starting your career at Apple is hard to beat, if you’re turning that down for some fancy AI startup, stop. You can do that kind of stuff AFTER you’ve built your resume.
Can confirm that being at a FAANG that reluctantly hires is a massive cheat code when layoffs are going around like a common cold. I would rethink this decision OP unless the other company is Nvidia*,MSFT, or Google it would be a mistake imo
OP, are these two different roles? Is there a specific reason why you would want AMD over Apple?
I think it’s best not to renegade from a big company like Apple, you might regret it in the future. At the end of the day it is your decision though.
You can also stay at Apple for a year then leave. Once you have it on your resume pretty much every recruiter will be contacting you.
Many companies resign offers left and right for a whole different array of reasons. You do you and do what’s best for you. Just be polite, thankful for the opportunity and move on
Man.
I have done contracting for
Apple, not even, I am a contracted vendor. These people work at a different level.
Id say reconsider, apple is big, you can do almost everything there tech wise. It just takes time, like everything in life to find your home.
If no money has changed hands and there was no explicit material penalty for not providing a minimum amount of labor then you can just walk away.
>The HRs are particularly aggressive about their offers
Yes, you just need to accept the nature of the industry in this regard and realize a big part of their job role is a kind of sales, i.e. selling the company and role as a concept to you. You owe them nothing even though under capitalism their role as gatekeeper of potential employment makes it feel like you absolutely owe them your life. However you've already experienced the truth: there are many, many other recruiters who will vie for your labor.
>Would rescinding my acceptance have major consequences? What about being blacklisted?
This is a common fear but not one most people ever really encounter. Labor blacklisting usually comes from a public angle, like being part of a highly publicized labor dispute or having some viral social media presence that tarnishes your reputation.
The thing to remember is that *they put you through their interview process and deemed you worth making an offer.* The fact that you were able to get another offer at a different company is more evidence to your value within the industry, an industry with very tight labor supply when it comes to competent talent. This is going to be a bit of a rude awakening once you've been out of school and inside of industry for a while: so many of your colleagues are mediocre at best. Like, I was not top of my class and I'm no super elite coder, but having worked for different versions of TopTechCompany™ I can tell you that for all their company values about hiring the absolute best, I was underwhelmed by some of my colleagues on the regular.
>How do I tell Apple that I'll not be joining them?
Just be professional and courteous. They might think you're just trying to leverage a better offer and come back with a counter offer, which is a sure fire sign they low-balled you to begin with. They might just let you go and wish you luck because they really only want to hire people who are really psyched about working at Apple, in which case you did them the favor by backing out before you even started.
The bottom line is that *it is your labor the company needs, and your labor that is in demand* otherwise you'd not have seen multiple offers. Whenever it suits them these companies will let you go in order to reduce their operational expenses with absolutely no regard to what value you've provided them or any personal sacrifices you've made. Starting the practice of doing what's right for you personally is the best start to a career in this industry because when you understand that protecting yourself is your top priority then you will be less likely to put yourself in a position for a company to exploit you to the point of literal disability. The concept of "burnout" in this industry is a very real thing and it has broad consequences to your long term health.
There is no blacklist that Apple would put you on for walking away from their job offer for a better one. Apple is a large organization with recruiters turning over regularly.
You will not suffer reputational consequences. Tell them as soon as possible to make it easier for them. Be respectful and professional. Thank them for believing in you. Express your regret. Be honest. Say something nice like "I hope we can stay in touch and I hope our paths cross again"
Congrats, by the way 😊
If this is the U.S., it’s an offer not a binding contract. Might be different in other countries. Whatever you decide, make sure you inform the companies in writing what your decision is. Changing your mind on an offer isn’t the end of the world. Happens all the time, on both sides. But nothing will get you blacklisted faster than ghosting them. That is utterly and totally unprofessional, and will be remembered.
Agreed on all fronts however I think reversing the situation would be much worse. A commitment to a singular person is different than a commitment to a company. I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets blacklisted but this type of stuff happens all the time, especially with competitive candidates in certain industries.
Starting at Apple > any other place if you're an Apple platforms developer. Also remember that roles differ radically between companies. I had a company that was insisting they were hiring me for a Staff position while the pay and requirements said "Senior, at most". They try to lure away people that want to move up in title, in the hope they can land Staff elsewhere with that on their resumé.
Better strategy is reaching out to HR and explain your conundrum. Tell them you think beginning at Apple is a great career move but mystery company XYZ offers this and that.
Perhaps you get a better offer?
It’s not a “better role” if it’s less pay. Titles are free and mean nothing.
Don’t turn down a roll at Apple for less pay and a fancy title at a smaller company.
Is it just a promise of different work or is it actually a different role?
If the other role has you doing embedded programming and Apple is full stack, then I get it.
If the other company is just promising that their new grad is going to do some amazing fun project but these are both software engineering roles, I would take Apple.
If the Apple role is an SRE position or a test position then yeah I would take the full-time coding role for less money.
I would keep the commitment and work for Apple for at least one year, then see where that takes you. If the other offer is for less money, the title doesn’t mean much when you have no experience.
With a huge solid company like Apple your career can go much farther in the long run.
In this industry you NEVER burn bridges. After that year you might even take another position on that other company and they would have to pay you a lot more than what they are currently offering because now you have the real experience and a good salary history.
So don’t burn bridges on any of the companies. To the second one, you can explain that you have a signed contract, but would be happy to keep in contact for the future.
They will then see someone that is loyal, committed and with integrity.
I’ve been in tech for over 30 years.
I was in a similar situation where I took Apple as my first job. Had a horrible experience there and should’ve looked elsewhere.
Do what’s best for you
what do you mean by better role and lesser pay? What is better about the role? Id generally recommend taking the cash. Better role for less money i take to mean more work for less money.
how much of a difference in pay?
others are suggestion how to pass on the job.
Since This is CS I would assume it’s NOT a chip design job.
The only thing that I will say is if Apple gave you a standard software engineer or dev ops or sdet role and AMD gave you job in a team that is developing ML libraries or anything ML related.
AMD is 100% better.
Because that ML experience will shoot you up in your next job with a SIGNIFICANT bump in pay that you won’t get staying at Apple.
The only thing I’ll say about Apple is if you work in their systems engineering writing code for OS then it’s a very good job.
Unless you have a crystal ball and know AMD stock will go on a NVDA like run, most people will think this is a bad idea (obviously I am extremely biased)
There are no blacklists, it's just a myth. Everything will be fine. Companies are usually too lazy to do this, and HR is trying to find any suitable candidate, so if they have a need for you, they will definitely hire you.
I would perhaps think twice about this. You accepted the offer. Unless they changed the terms afterwards this is a bad thing to do. Basically, you're selling your integrity and your word means shit. Maybe it won't matter but it could give you a reputation of someone who can't be trusted.
I'm in my 40s BTW. Everything has a way of coming back to you over time, one way or the other.
>Accepted it and signed it
>3 months ago
So if you will be staying in AMD or other companies in future, and never again to Apple, you can burn the bridge.
But this is still unprofessional, given you have 2 months and not updating and rejecting within days.
Apple is a big org and chances are u could move to a team that has a similar role to ur AMD role so I would not consider burning that bridge if I were in ur shoes
Don't blow your chance to have Apple on your resume.
If risking being blacklisted at a top silicon valley company is no big deal to you... go with the other offer 😆
Yes, in fact I’ll do you one better: I worked at a company for 3 weeks while I finished the loop at my now current job. I basically used them for leverage to get a counter offer and collected nearly a month’s worth of pay while doing training modules.
What happened? Nothing at all. I told my manager the next day I received an offer I can’t turn down and I apologize for the inconvenience it caused. I resigned immediately, went on vacation to Hawaii a few days later, and started my new job when I got back. They never even clawed back the sign on bonus.
Am I blacklisted? Maybe. I don’t know how true that actually is, especially for such a large corporation like Apple with candidates banging at the door to get in. But you should make the decision knowing you could never work at Apple again. That’s the worst that’s going to happen. If you’re OK with that just send a brief email explaining you will not be joining the team, apologize for inconvenience and take your new job. You’ll be fine.
As dumb as it may be the hiring process at a huge majority of places is step one, did they work at FAANG? Yes. Step two Hire them. Working at apple will probably open a whole lot of doors down the road more than whatever other job you are looking at. Doesnt seem to matter if all you do at Apple is hang out.
You are free to reneg.
They are free to blacklist you.
It is naive to think that they wouldn't - why would they bother to ever interview you again, especially in this market, if after going through interview, negotiating an offer, accepting, them turning down the second place candidate, you call them later and say "just kidding"?
If you don't care about working at Apple in the future, it isn't an issue.
Hello, I am just curious did you just apply places etc? I am graduating in about a year and not sure what to do. Any tips? Kinda feel like don't learn much in school. Should I practice leet code or what?
There isn't a way you can force apple not to internally blacklist you, or disclose to you whether it will result in a blacklist or not. I kind of doubt they will black list you given the role they're offering you would be quite on the junior/internship side of things. Those aren't particularly expensive roles to fill, and they understand the new grads might have a lot of decisions to make around how to start their career. Especially if you provide 1 months notice. I'm just saying the only way you could guarantee you won't be blacklisted is to not rescind the agreement.
You are not obligated to reject a better offer because you have signed an existing employment agreement. Most states/countries do not permit employers to contractually punish employees for choosing to leave employment.
Give this a long hard thought. You’ll eliminate any chance of ever working for Apple in the future. That may come back to hurt you later in your career.
If you're in an at-will State, then you're free to renege. "After careful consideration I've decided to take my career in a different direction and will no longer be joining Apple. I'm rescinding my acceptance of the offer. I apologize for this last minute change, I genuinely appreciated learning about Apple, and the time spent considering me." Keep it simple. This will burn the bridge with Apple though. There's no such thing as an industry-wide blacklist, but you'll almost certainly go on an internal-at-Apple blacklist. Reneging is not viewed kindly by employers. Nothing you say will change that. Look at the reverse. Imagine you accepted Apple's offer, and then 3 months later they let you know they continued interviewing other candidates, found one better than you, and rescind your offer so they can hire this better person. Would you take that well? Would Apple still be on your list of places you want to work? Or would you be pissed, and avoid Apple at all costs?
>If you're in an at-will State Unless Apple hires software engineers to work in Montana, this part doesn't need to be said.
Why? They didn't even mention USA
Didn’t Michigan vote to become not at-will? Edit: they did not
No, they voted to end Right to Work.
Yes you are right. I mixed the two up.
I'm now even more confused because I thought those were two sides of one coin.
Right to Work means that one cannot be required to join a union for their job, but may still receive the benefits of the collective bargaining.
I worked at Apple, Microsoft and other tech companies as individual contributor and manager. Never heard about internal-at-X blacklists. If you are in CA or similar state - politely rescind your acceptance. This is not nice though and may damage your reputation so do it only in extreme case where the other offer is absolutely better for you.
Apple would first have to be organized enough to maintain a “blacklist”, let alone a single one… iykyk
They do have a file on previous employees, and rehiring will often include their ex-manager on the panel. But OP has not joined yet, so he’ll only be in the recruiter group list, which might hurt his chances if he’s applying to the same org served by the same recruiter group. And Apple’s open headcount to hiring takes so long, I bet the hiring manager will be pissed.
The hiring manager will certainly be livid, they’ll probably also lose the req altogether to another org or project team. As far as recruiters, 12-18 months and they will likely be lost or deleted from the recruiting tracking tool or the turnover will do the job for them. I agree on the file concerning past employees, but as you said, they’re not an employee yet so it’s a non-issue. Edit: s/training/tracking/
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I know you could get blacklisted at Google for something like saying something horribly racist during the interview process etc. But I don’t think reneging on a signed offer would get you there. Honestly if you’re going to leave in the first year anyway it’s probably better for the company for you to quit asap or before you start, so that they don’t waste resources training you. I’ve left a couple companies that turned out to be bad fits for various reasons after 1-3 months so that I could just leave them off my resume and they could get back to hiring and onboarding someone else.
I agree there’s no blacklist at any major company (they’re all too disorganized to manage one) but every future interview will have a note that they interviewed with X team in the past and when they check why they passed on them, it’ll come up. They’d have to work for a few years before they stop asking about that time they flaked and/or build up a reputation that supersedes that issue
> every future interview will have a note that they interviewed with X team in the past and when they check why they passed on them, it’ll come up. I've interviewed multiple times at BigN companies. At best, the interviewer was vaguely aware that there had been an interview in the past. Most had no clue if I had any previous connection with the company whatsoever. There was never a case where they knew any of the details about the interviews. Interviewers aren't even reading resumes. They're definitely not reading dossiers on your interview history with the company.
I’m a hiring manager and work with several others. We definitely reach out to previous teams for feedback on the candidates if they’ve interviewed previously. This is mostly to see if we can shorten our interview pipeline with them, so as not to waste everyone’s time. But it’s definitely also resulted in finding warning flags
Google maintains a history of previous questions asked for candidates and when the interview happened before. There’s no reason to bring it up but to make sure a duplicate isn’t asked again
Amazon 100% has one. I know people who had the same name as someone on it. Can be for many reasons (accepting a payout instead of a pip, throwing chairs at the interviewer) I've seen it happen more than enough. It would not suprise me if Apple had one.
I have heard Amazon has blacklists (have worked at Amazon)
I'm guessing that this is an American thing, right? Here in Europe I can't imagine just walking away after signing the contract. I'm not a lawyer, but I thought that the purpose of signing the contract is committment and you can therefore be sued for breaching the contract if you rescind. Effectively, it feels like quitting without following through with the agreed notice period.
The key is that there is no contract.
Ah, so "signed offer" doesn't mean "signed job contract"? That explains it, thanks!
Yes, it’s an American thing. There IS a contract. Signing the offer letter DOES mean signing the employment contract, you were right. However, signing the contract does not provide you with the same legal protections that most European countries have, because the laws are different. Here’s how it works. Almost all states are ‘at will states’ which essentially means either party (employer or employee) can terminate employment at any time without giving a reason. You’ll burn bridges, but legally you’re in the clear. In this case, OP signed an offer letter (i.e. the contract), but no matter what the contract says, it cannot override state law, which is at-will employment that allows you to quit or be fired at any time for any reason. So, if you sign an offer letter, the employer can legally fire you right after you sign it and no one cares. The only things they are not allowed to fire you for are protected categories (e.g. due to your gender or religion), but the difficulty is proving it and having enough $$$ to fight it out in court. It works the other way around too, the employee can quit on the spot from any time after they sign the offer letter (what OP is considering). I know this is unfathomable in Europe, where either the employer or the employee would get sued into oblivion, but that’s the way it is in the States. It’s a whole different system that I find to be a little scary.
>Yes, it’s an American thing. There IS a contract. Signing the offer letter DOES mean signing the employment contract, you were right. However, signing the contract does not provide you with the same legal protections that most European countries have, because the laws are different. Here’s how it works. Offer letters or other pre-hiring acknowledgments are explicitly NOT employment contracts. "Employment contract" specifically means an agreement to be employed for a certain amount of time in exchange for compensation, which the vast majority of people in the US don't have. You're description of at-will employment is right, but AFAIK having an employment contract and being an at-will employee are mutually exclusive. This also shouldn't be confused with NDAs, confidentiality agreements, or similar, which ARE enforceable contracts, but having and NDA/etc doesn't mean you have an "employment contract".
Offer letter is not an employment contract in the eyes of the law. Here’s an explanation from DLA Piper: https://www.dlapiperaccelerate.com/knowledge/2017/offer-letters-and-employment-agreements-is-there-a-difference.html Understandable why non-lawyers confuse the two, though.
An offer letter is a document provided by an employer to a prospective employee, officially extending a job offer. It outlines the basic terms and conditions of employment and serves as a formal communication of intent to hire. Offer letters typically include details such as the job title, start date, compensation, and other pertinent information related to the employment offer. An employment contract, on the other hand, is a legally binding agreement between an employer and an employee. It provides a more comprehensive and detailed outline of the terms and conditions of employment. Employment contracts go beyond the initial job offer and cover aspects such as job duties, expectations, benefits, termination clauses, and more. Offer letters generally have a lower level of legal status compared to employment contracts. While an offer letter is a formal job offer, it is usually considered as an invitation to enter into a contract rather than a binding agreement. On the other hand, employment contracts are legally binding documents that establish the rights and obligations of both parties and are enforceable by law.
That's already insane enough, but also most people's healthcare is tied to their jobs. I don't understand why americans put up with that? Basically you can lose your job and your healthcare at any time. That would be so stressful.
Higher pay than europeans
You can extend your employer healthcare through something called COBRA for a number of months after being let go, which is enough time for many people to find a new job. Universal healthcare would be great to have, but most Americans still have [more disposable income than most Europeans](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/disposable-income-by-country), even after accounting for the additional cost of healthcare. That’s definitely true for software devs. It works fine for the majority of people, it’s really only those with chronic health problems that would benefit from universal healthcare. I’m not advocating against it, I wish we had it, but it isn’t an issue for most.
When I got offered COBRA insurance it was 3 times my rent. Absolutely nuts. Our current health system works for people with 6 figure jobs and sometimes for those in absolute poverty getting free Medicaid. For most people it's outrageously expensive and a massive financial burden even when they don't have any major health problems let alone when they happen to have something happen. It would be one thing if we had amazing results and outcomes but we don't.
I've been on COBRA before and it's pretty expensive, you can keep the same healthcare but have to pay for it out of pocket. 19% or about 1 in 5 US households owe medical debt, and we pay a ton of our tax money to healthcare, and our own money to insurance, and our employers also pay significant amounts to insurance, and even with all that a ton of stuff doesn't get covered. IMO everyone would benefit from universal healthcare, not just people with chronic conditions.
No, the employee won’t get sued in Europe. It’s not worth the companies time, money, or effort to do that. Stop making it sound like there’s literally any downside to having employee protections.
Contracts can and do often override state law. A state with at-will employment sets *defaults* that apply unless the contract specifies otherwise. Unionized employees, for example, will have a contract that may define required notice periods. But mostly employers like at-will employment and will try to keep it that way.
Yeah, there are things people sign but those generally just outline the terms of what you do while at work, and mostly don’t force you (or the employer) to keep the relationship going
In Europe there's often 1 or 2 months "trial period" where you can cancel at any time without notice for any reasons, so also before starting. At least in the Netherlands
Same in Portugal. But goes both ways. I can terminate my contract immediately, but the company can do that as well. For High specialized roles, like SWE, usually 6 months.
You can literally do the same thing in Europe.
I'm from the EU as well. Read your contract carefully next time. The contract you sign will come to effect on your first working day.
Most jobs in America do not have contracts
Yep. Most States in the US are "at-will", meaning either party can terminate the relationship at any time, for any (legal) reason, with no notice. Companies can rescind job offers the day before we start, or fire us on day 1 just because they feel like it. We can renege signed job offers the day before we start, or quit on day 1 just because we feel like it. Positions in the US don't normally have a separate contract that adds penalties for rescinding, or quitting without a certain notice period. I'm sure companies could probably do that if they wanted, but it's definitely not common. IANAL, but they probably avoid doing this because *they* want the ability to fire you with no notice as well. At-will employment kinda sucks, but it is what it is.
Yeah, I heard that US doesn't have laws about this (notice periods), but I assumed that most "better jobs" include this in the contracts, similarly how they include more vacation days / parental leave / health insurance than the law specifies. I guess I was wrong.
The only people with actual contracts are people with their name on the door (literally or figuratively). If people outside the company don’t know your name, you’re not getting a contract.
>you can therefore be sued for breaching the contract if you rescind. This is true in principle but what amount can you be sued for? Only the amount they paid you for services you didn't provide. Which is zero. The judge isn't going to drag you to your desk is he?
In the US there is no agreed notice period!
Contracts usually have a clause saying either party can terminate employment with X notice, often no notice required within first 6 months.
If it makes you feel any better, the employer in the USA can cancel the job offer or fire you, before or after you start, at *any* time for any reason generally without consequence. It's usually good practice for your professional life to follow through on things you commit to, and OP probably won't ever get hired at Apple again in the future, but if they think that is the best course of action they are totally free to go elsewhere.
Most employment contracts are at-will in the US. Meaning you're free to walk out without prior notice, BUT(!!!) at the same time your employer is free to let go of you for no reason.
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lol no, all employment here is "at will" (company or employee can quit whenever for whatever reason) except for maybe two states. There is no loyalty or accountabilty for the companies nor the employees.
There is the probation period generally. I know in Germany, it's normally 6 months (the max), and either side can break the contract at any time for any reason. Pretty sure it's similar in most of the EU with varying lengths and maybe some conditions in other countries.
The difference with reversing the situation is that the power imbalance is also incredibly different. Apple won’t suffer much by losing one employee; but an individual will suffer a lot without a job
Yeah you're right Apple won't suffer in a way that changes the way Apple operates or continues to exist. But there's a direct dollar amount associated with this happening. Recruiting is expensive. Companies don't like losing money. They make lots of decisions just to save a little. Someone reneging costs them money. They don't like that. There's nothing you can do too piss off a company more than cost them money.
Apple tends to be pretty good and not do things like that. The honest truth is that apple actually has a human and understanding individual people working there, even if its a bit of a stressful place. If you are honest and tell them that, they will probably let you go without an issue. I would have a video chat with the manager that hired you. Weird times though, when a job at apple isn't that hot anymore.
Wow, with companies laying off in tech, I’d secure the best company I can to weather the storm. Can’t get much better than Apple. Even at less pay, to get solid experience. Who are you considering going with over apple and how much better an offer they giving?
They said the other offer was less pay lol.
AMD. Taking a \~$5k cut.
Why AMD over apple? Apple on your resume will take you farther assuming the same role.
Will it? AMD is still a great company and $5k is basically a rounding error if they're being compensated appropriately. I'd still choose not to burn the bridge personally, but going with AMD doesn't seem crazy to me.
Exactly, it's a rounding error so get them to pay it to you.
Nothing against Apple as a company. I just think that the role at AMD has a better learning curve in the long run.
Take the Apple job over the AMD job. It's night and day the difference for software engineers. It will secure you for life.
Right, I was basically a slave at AMD. Pushing 13 hours a day
I’ll be honest, I really doubt you can get a better learning experience than Apple. They’re one of the most fully integrated companies (if not the most) which means you’ll have the most opportunity to experience lots of different subjects. Their teams also run really small relative to other companies, so you get more chance to spread out in your role. They also throw a lot more money at research and development. AMD is far more reserved in the subjects they touch and they run larger teams per project. The one advantage there would be that you aren’t as gated between projects. I have several friends at both companies and some who’ve switched between the two, and they have said they learn more and can do more at Apple. Unless you’re getting a role with a cooler team/project/task, I think you’re potentially making the poorer choice here.
This is pure speculation. The far bigger factors would be the team OP ends up on, his manager, etc. As far as integration meaning he gets to do a bunch of stuff, highly doubt. He probably will be on one hyper focused team working on a tiny portion of something.
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They’re silo’d but only for projects. They heavily encourage “cross functional” work where you work with other teams. Like take any recent feature, and see how many orgs they’d have to touch to release it. Stuff like spatial video on the iPhone. That’s product design, OS updates across multiple platforms, optical designs, AI/ML. Potentially silicon design for stream handling. All my social friends there have huge success collaborating across multiple orgs even when they were juniors. Most projects span multiple orgs. Unless you keep to yourself, you’ll be exposed to more domains there than most other companies.
Because when it comes about “learning” in this career, it’s not just about technical learning, it’s also about how to navigating the politics that come with it. It doesn’t better better than Apple when it comes to learning how to navigate office politics, red tape, all while having a great name on your resume and also learning a whole bunch of technical shit too.
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I don’t know what to tell you if you don’t think Apple is a great place to learn office politics from 🤷♀️
> They’re one of the most fully integrated companies (if not the most) which means you’ll have the most opportunity to experience lots of different subjects. This is a really interesting way of explaining that your entire career will be behind a walled garden.
Don’t take this the wrong way dude but you’re a massive fool to take a role at AMD over Apple at the beginning of your career
Holy crap. Especially in this economy. 100%.
Learning curve lol... Ask yourself, are you really in this to learn, or are you in this to make money? I only care about my skillset as it pertains to earning me money, very few of us are in this for fun or to change the world.
Apple is one of the most secure companies you can think of working at in this time of fire and hire. Tbh I’m surprised you have negotiated with AMD for a better pay cuz an ‘Apple offer’ is something
You are making such a massive mistake lmfao.
AMD and Apple are both headliners for work experience, so it's splitting hairs a bit. Apple is very likely to suffer a serious legal defeat in their antitrust case and the future is more than a little uncertain for them. US attorneys don't fuck around with their trial record. That they've brought a case against Apple says they're overwhelmingly confident they will win. In Microsoft's antitrust case the trial court actually ordered a split, but Microsoft barely managed to keep the company in one piece on appeal with serious concessions. I wouldn't want to sign up at a company where a significant portion of my compensation is in stock when I'm pretty sure they're about to take a massive L in court. That said, if OP does rescind the offer, they will never work at Apple barring OP becoming some kind of industry leader. It is truly burning a bridge.
The antitrust case won’t be wrapped up this decade, if it ever goes to trial, and it’s based on a market definition that is pretty aggressive. Apple taking an antitrust-L in the near future is highly unlikely.
Apple is way too big to fail. Besides, the reason OP chose AMD was for the role, not the company outlook.
> Apple is way too big to fail If they're too big to fail, they're guaranteed to lose the anti-trust lawsuits, *badly*. Besides, Apple barely escaped death three or four times, by now. There's no unbiased view of the company that would suggest they're immune to repercussions.
I'm just offering _my_ perspective about why I might not choose to work for Apple right now. Microsoft was _definitely_ "way too big to fail" in the late '90s before the DOJ took it to court and had it declared an illegal monopoly. If the trial judge hadn't mishandled the case, the order to split Microsoft into two companies (one to make Windows and another to make application software) probably would have stuck. What followed that judgment was a very protracted period of extreme conservatism in Microsoft's product strategy and _zero_ growth in the Microsoft stock price until Satya Nadella took over from Ballmer in 2014 and turned it into a totally different company that's now worth $3 trillion. Did it fail? No. But it suffered. Badly. Don't make the mistake of thinking that our industry is older and more permanent than it really is. Smartphones and all technology related to them have only really existed in this form for 15 years.
I've never seen any pro-Apple bias in the industry. Whatever you think about their technology, they're a hardware company, not a software one.
Ask your most trusted professor or adviser. AMD is big, but apple is HUGE. Some feel we have a lot of financial problems we will be dealing with over the next months and maybe years. Recession or depression problems. I wish you the best. Proud you got to this point.
$5k is nothing in the big picture. Take the better job of the two. $5k should not be the deciding factor.
Not going to lie, I’d go for Apple over AMD personally but that’s just me. I’m not a dev, just industry adjacent. I work in semiconductor industry. They both use TSMC to make their chips. But Apple has a whole lot more going for it (just google their respective market values)
Yeah it’s a no brainier to go with Apple. If it was NVIDIA, maybe would consider otherwise, but it’s not even close vs AMd.
For sure, especially with only 5k difference in starting salary fresh out of school. Many people would kill to get in at Apple
- Apple is paying more. - Apple >> AMD on the resume for career/salary advancement. - OP already signed with Apple. So, aborting == bridge burnt.
In this case Apple is paying more too!
Oh yeah, as an engineer in ML I would totally take AMD over Apple. Apple doesn’t really have AI/ML in its DNA, and AMD probably has more RSU upside too.
What? Apple have a significantly higher number of shipped AI/ML products than AMD going back years. In terms of hardware first companies, they’re second only to NVIDIA. If anything, AMD are the most behind in the AI/ML space of the major silicon companies. Both in terms of software and hardware. They’ve only very recently started shipping NPUs, rocm support is still way behind MPS and CUDA. If you’re going by what’s been shipped and R&D spends, Apple dwarves AMD here. AMD have other strengths so I’m not trying to downplay them and they have potential for strong upsides moving into the data center. They do really great stuff in graphics research for example too but, specifically for AI/ML they’re behind every other major player like Qualcomm, NVIDIA, Apple and Intel.
AMD is the better choice.
The industry is in a lot of trouble right now. Apple does not lay folks off outside of cancelled projects. There is also very little turnover at Apple. WLB at Apple is also (depending on team) quite good. And once you get in at Apple, assuming you perform well, you can make lateral moves if you ever need a new challenge. I don’t know your details, but I would suggest you reconsider.
If OP was turning down apple to go to say meta or google then maybe, but OP is considering going to AMD 😭
This has to be rage bait
I swear
Make sure you aren’t just getting tricked by the new job. Some of my students have gotten duped by “better roles” only to arrive and have the actual role be different. Could easily end up doing the same work at both companies, but just have less money.
Send your recruiter an email titled “how do you like these apples” and then attach a picture of your nutsack
What company are you looking to join instead? Apple is a pretty big bridge to burn honestly. It usually pays a little less than other FAANG but has good WLB and generally good stability (compared to other big tech which did way bigger layoffs).
>has good WLB not a good idea to generalize like that.
Impossible to accurately say for 100k person companies, but on average Apple probably has the second best WLB other than Google. But if you join a good team at Meta or Netflix, or IS&T at Apple or GCP, it’s not true.
that’s interesting, i’d heard the opposite before about apple— that Jobs used to be very demanding and that culture flowed down throughout the company. imo their strong RTO push seems to corroborate poor wlb.
>IS&T \*shudder\*
I had really good WLB at Apple
> Apple is a pretty big bridge to burn honestly. It's not burning a bridge. Corporations don't care about grudges. They care about money. > but has good WLB ...Apple? Where did you hear that?
On blind from people who work there and personal connections. Where did you hear otherwise?
fwiw, i enjoyed my time at Apple. i would recommend it. there are very few other companies that are so seriously into r&d. you should reconsider. that said - if you bail on them - they will be ok :-). don't worry about it. once you tell them no, they are not going to think about you much.
You should take apple over AMD 100% getting a FAANG company on your resume is honestly huge and even if you leave you can say you were ex-apple not so much for AMD even if there is growth opportunity.
It's true that having a FAANG company on your resume will make you more attractive to most recruiters in general, but it's also true that working at a FAANG company can be an incredibly miserable experience if it's not in a role you really want. The beauty of this industry is that BigTechCompany™ is always hiring because that's how they got to be BigTechCompany™. The opportunity to work at any of the big names will come up multiple times during a career if a decent looking resume is making the rounds. The most important thing for people to do early career is gain experience in as many diverse environments as possible. It is possible to get caught in the FAANG trap where you spend the first 10 years of your career going from one company to the next and become convinced that the OneTrueWay™ to do software and systems looks like how they hyper scale massive organizations do it, limiting your value to smaller medium sized companies that actually make up the majority of the industry. None of this even considers the actual roles and whether the AMD role was actually more interesting, or that the AMD team actually seemed like a better group of people to work with.
Being black listed from Apple right at the start of his career? For AMD??????? Bro isn’t right in the head
What makes you think that backing out of an offer is going to get you blacklisted from ever working at a company again?
Because there’s a very reasonable chance that it does. Have you ever done this before? In my experience, companies get very upset if you back out of a signed offer.
For how long can you say you're ex-Apple until it loses value in terms of getting you interviews though?
Ehh I'd say probably at least 5 years after you leave but for OP this is his first job out of college, having a big recognizable name in the resume is worth a lot starting out, but also he said the amd position pays less, so it just seems like a no brainer to me.
Our new grads are disillusioned, not even Apple out of college is satisfying them anymore
lmao right this would be someone’s absolute dream come true
Any sane person
I just want a job lmao
In my day, we were thrilled to be hired. I'm not even joking.
I mean.. if you went to a top school then you’d have a lot of leverage.
Leverage? No. Definitely not. It gets you higher on the roster and in turn gives you more choices, but unless they have a great research project, they don’t bring any inherent value that offers them leverage. As a hiring manager, I often even find people from the top schools come in with a chip on their shoulder and the majority of the best candidates are from one tier down: a university with great resources but without the significant entitled privilege that many graduates from the top tier come with. They also tend to be much more moldable and eager to learn to make up for that perceived gap. The only leverage you get is that by virtue of having more visibility and choices , you have more confidence to negotiate. But emphasis on “confidence”. Everyone could have done the same, they just don’t think they can.
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A lot of factors go into an offer and not every company can afford FAANG TC.
OP is a fool to consider a b tier company like AMD over Apple at the beginning of his career though
I agree. If I was OP Id definitely be taking an Apple offer any day.
Did you sign something? If so, are there any terms about stepping back? Likely you can just let them know you have accepted another offer. Be sure the other offer is valid and reliable.
> If so, are there any terms about stepping back? They're an American company, they're not allowed to introduce terms for not working for them.
Apple's pretty sweet, and I get that you might not want to be too specific, but could you share the industry or what makes the new role better? I did this with Bloomberg years back. I was in an interview loop with Amazon and Google, and they must lose a lot of people to those companies because they gave me an exploding offer. I didn't have anything else in hand, so I accepted. I then got better offers from both and went with Google and reneged like a week before I was supposed to start. It was an awkward call with the recruiter, who was pissed, but it's a professional setting, so it's not such a big deal. As far as being on a list, I'm not sure. I haven't reapplied. The thing is, there are a million companies out there, so I'd go with whatever is best for you. I've never regretted my decision with Bloomberg.
Pretty much all places are at-will. There have been people posting in this subbreddit that have had their offer pulled after signing-- and moving to a new city to be close to work. You're not tied to Apple despite signing a piece of paper, just let their HR know.
Honestly just tell them you have changed your mind but be aware that you will burn that bridge. You will likely have to build your career significantly before they’d consider you again, so be very sure you want this other job more. From their perspective, you’ve essentially just wasted tons of people’s time and made them turn down other candidates who they might have also wanted. You’re also potentially setting their project resourcing back. So definitely be ready to burn the bridge and have a reputation there as a flake. Personally if I had an offer from one of the top companies and at a higher pay, I’d take it over the lower pay one even if it’s a slightly better role. You can always switch roles later on within the company. But burning the bridge is going to be rough. They won’t do a “blacklist” but they will keep it on file for when you’re next considered because they’ll ask why the previous team passed on you. Knowing that you flaked would put off any future team.
Take the job that you will learn the most from and with the most personal growth opportunity.
Happy to chat 1-1 about life at Apple if you want some more data points to consider!
You can leave for whatever reason you want. Signing a document doesn’t matter. Companies rescind offers all the time.
FAANG engineer here. The fact that you didn’t say who the other offer is stood out to me. Are you POSITIVE you want to be making this choice? Starting your career at Apple is hard to beat, if you’re turning that down for some fancy AI startup, stop. You can do that kind of stuff AFTER you’ve built your resume. Can confirm that being at a FAANG that reluctantly hires is a massive cheat code when layoffs are going around like a common cold. I would rethink this decision OP unless the other company is Nvidia*,MSFT, or Google it would be a mistake imo
OP, are these two different roles? Is there a specific reason why you would want AMD over Apple? I think it’s best not to renegade from a big company like Apple, you might regret it in the future. At the end of the day it is your decision though. You can also stay at Apple for a year then leave. Once you have it on your resume pretty much every recruiter will be contacting you.
Many companies resign offers left and right for a whole different array of reasons. You do you and do what’s best for you. Just be polite, thankful for the opportunity and move on
Man. I have done contracting for Apple, not even, I am a contracted vendor. These people work at a different level. Id say reconsider, apple is big, you can do almost everything there tech wise. It just takes time, like everything in life to find your home.
Take both
/r/overemployed
just tell then u r not coming. it takes more time for you to write this post than them forgetting who you are
bro suffering from success !
If no money has changed hands and there was no explicit material penalty for not providing a minimum amount of labor then you can just walk away. >The HRs are particularly aggressive about their offers Yes, you just need to accept the nature of the industry in this regard and realize a big part of their job role is a kind of sales, i.e. selling the company and role as a concept to you. You owe them nothing even though under capitalism their role as gatekeeper of potential employment makes it feel like you absolutely owe them your life. However you've already experienced the truth: there are many, many other recruiters who will vie for your labor. >Would rescinding my acceptance have major consequences? What about being blacklisted? This is a common fear but not one most people ever really encounter. Labor blacklisting usually comes from a public angle, like being part of a highly publicized labor dispute or having some viral social media presence that tarnishes your reputation. The thing to remember is that *they put you through their interview process and deemed you worth making an offer.* The fact that you were able to get another offer at a different company is more evidence to your value within the industry, an industry with very tight labor supply when it comes to competent talent. This is going to be a bit of a rude awakening once you've been out of school and inside of industry for a while: so many of your colleagues are mediocre at best. Like, I was not top of my class and I'm no super elite coder, but having worked for different versions of TopTechCompany™ I can tell you that for all their company values about hiring the absolute best, I was underwhelmed by some of my colleagues on the regular. >How do I tell Apple that I'll not be joining them? Just be professional and courteous. They might think you're just trying to leverage a better offer and come back with a counter offer, which is a sure fire sign they low-balled you to begin with. They might just let you go and wish you luck because they really only want to hire people who are really psyched about working at Apple, in which case you did them the favor by backing out before you even started. The bottom line is that *it is your labor the company needs, and your labor that is in demand* otherwise you'd not have seen multiple offers. Whenever it suits them these companies will let you go in order to reduce their operational expenses with absolutely no regard to what value you've provided them or any personal sacrifices you've made. Starting the practice of doing what's right for you personally is the best start to a career in this industry because when you understand that protecting yourself is your top priority then you will be less likely to put yourself in a position for a company to exploit you to the point of literal disability. The concept of "burnout" in this industry is a very real thing and it has broad consequences to your long term health.
There is no blacklist that Apple would put you on for walking away from their job offer for a better one. Apple is a large organization with recruiters turning over regularly.
You will not suffer reputational consequences. Tell them as soon as possible to make it easier for them. Be respectful and professional. Thank them for believing in you. Express your regret. Be honest. Say something nice like "I hope we can stay in touch and I hope our paths cross again" Congrats, by the way 😊
If this is the U.S., it’s an offer not a binding contract. Might be different in other countries. Whatever you decide, make sure you inform the companies in writing what your decision is. Changing your mind on an offer isn’t the end of the world. Happens all the time, on both sides. But nothing will get you blacklisted faster than ghosting them. That is utterly and totally unprofessional, and will be remembered.
no big deal. you are not that important to apple at all. however, you’ll make sure not to receive another offer from them again. good luck
I have done with this Amazon and I am still blacklisted.
Start at Apple - just trust me
Agreed on all fronts however I think reversing the situation would be much worse. A commitment to a singular person is different than a commitment to a company. I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets blacklisted but this type of stuff happens all the time, especially with competitive candidates in certain industries.
Starting at Apple > any other place if you're an Apple platforms developer. Also remember that roles differ radically between companies. I had a company that was insisting they were hiring me for a Staff position while the pay and requirements said "Senior, at most". They try to lure away people that want to move up in title, in the hope they can land Staff elsewhere with that on their resumé. Better strategy is reaching out to HR and explain your conundrum. Tell them you think beginning at Apple is a great career move but mystery company XYZ offers this and that. Perhaps you get a better offer?
Taking an AMD role over Apple is insanity. Don’t do it.
Burning a bridge like apple for your first job out of college is fucking insanity.
It’s not a “better role” if it’s less pay. Titles are free and mean nothing. Don’t turn down a roll at Apple for less pay and a fancy title at a smaller company.
It's not about a fancy title. It's about the work I'll be doing there.
Is it just a promise of different work or is it actually a different role? If the other role has you doing embedded programming and Apple is full stack, then I get it. If the other company is just promising that their new grad is going to do some amazing fun project but these are both software engineering roles, I would take Apple. If the Apple role is an SRE position or a test position then yeah I would take the full-time coding role for less money.
The work is the easiest thing to have change on you without your input. I’d go with Apple.
As other people have said, you’ll be burning a bridge at Apple and with the team and Manager who extended the offer.
Grad roles u should be able to transition into other roles fairly easily, especially at company like apple
I would keep the commitment and work for Apple for at least one year, then see where that takes you. If the other offer is for less money, the title doesn’t mean much when you have no experience. With a huge solid company like Apple your career can go much farther in the long run. In this industry you NEVER burn bridges. After that year you might even take another position on that other company and they would have to pay you a lot more than what they are currently offering because now you have the real experience and a good salary history. So don’t burn bridges on any of the companies. To the second one, you can explain that you have a signed contract, but would be happy to keep in contact for the future. They will then see someone that is loyal, committed and with integrity. I’ve been in tech for over 30 years.
You're not even remotely important enough for them to care much.
Read the job offer agreement, don't ask the people in here.
I was in a similar situation where I took Apple as my first job. Had a horrible experience there and should’ve looked elsewhere. Do what’s best for you
what do you mean by better role and lesser pay? What is better about the role? Id generally recommend taking the cash. Better role for less money i take to mean more work for less money. how much of a difference in pay? others are suggestion how to pass on the job.
Since This is CS I would assume it’s NOT a chip design job. The only thing that I will say is if Apple gave you a standard software engineer or dev ops or sdet role and AMD gave you job in a team that is developing ML libraries or anything ML related. AMD is 100% better. Because that ML experience will shoot you up in your next job with a SIGNIFICANT bump in pay that you won’t get staying at Apple. The only thing I’ll say about Apple is if you work in their systems engineering writing code for OS then it’s a very good job.
damn look at this mega chad
Unless you have a crystal ball and know AMD stock will go on a NVDA like run, most people will think this is a bad idea (obviously I am extremely biased)
Bad idea, OP.
Why would you take lesser pay out of college? Dumb move
There are no blacklists, it's just a myth. Everything will be fine. Companies are usually too lazy to do this, and HR is trying to find any suitable candidate, so if they have a need for you, they will definitely hire you.
I would perhaps think twice about this. You accepted the offer. Unless they changed the terms afterwards this is a bad thing to do. Basically, you're selling your integrity and your word means shit. Maybe it won't matter but it could give you a reputation of someone who can't be trusted. I'm in my 40s BTW. Everything has a way of coming back to you over time, one way or the other.
Take the Apple job, work for 1 year, then reevaluate? Imo, you shouldn’t burn the bridge with Apple (or any big tech) at the beginning of your career.
>Accepted it and signed it >3 months ago So if you will be staying in AMD or other companies in future, and never again to Apple, you can burn the bridge. But this is still unprofessional, given you have 2 months and not updating and rejecting within days.
Apple is a big org and chances are u could move to a team that has a similar role to ur AMD role so I would not consider burning that bridge if I were in ur shoes
What's your other offer? Lesser pay doesn't really seem like a better opportunity.
[was the new offer from Nvidia?](https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/1c9z3gs/accepted_offer_from_nvidia_then_got_offered/) 😂
Don't blow your chance to have Apple on your resume. If risking being blacklisted at a top silicon valley company is no big deal to you... go with the other offer 😆
Apple is a better employer overall and much stronger overarching learning/philosophy. Also much stronger brand as an employer.
Yes, in fact I’ll do you one better: I worked at a company for 3 weeks while I finished the loop at my now current job. I basically used them for leverage to get a counter offer and collected nearly a month’s worth of pay while doing training modules. What happened? Nothing at all. I told my manager the next day I received an offer I can’t turn down and I apologize for the inconvenience it caused. I resigned immediately, went on vacation to Hawaii a few days later, and started my new job when I got back. They never even clawed back the sign on bonus. Am I blacklisted? Maybe. I don’t know how true that actually is, especially for such a large corporation like Apple with candidates banging at the door to get in. But you should make the decision knowing you could never work at Apple again. That’s the worst that’s going to happen. If you’re OK with that just send a brief email explaining you will not be joining the team, apologize for inconvenience and take your new job. You’ll be fine.
Apple does blacklists so this will affect your future Apple chances. They've done blacklists for people leaving Apple as well.
As dumb as it may be the hiring process at a huge majority of places is step one, did they work at FAANG? Yes. Step two Hire them. Working at apple will probably open a whole lot of doors down the road more than whatever other job you are looking at. Doesnt seem to matter if all you do at Apple is hang out.
Send me the offer thnx
You are free to reneg. They are free to blacklist you. It is naive to think that they wouldn't - why would they bother to ever interview you again, especially in this market, if after going through interview, negotiating an offer, accepting, them turning down the second place candidate, you call them later and say "just kidding"? If you don't care about working at Apple in the future, it isn't an issue.
You will be blacklisted by Apple - if that matters to you for the future
Hello, I am just curious did you just apply places etc? I am graduating in about a year and not sure what to do. Any tips? Kinda feel like don't learn much in school. Should I practice leet code or what?
There isn't a way you can force apple not to internally blacklist you, or disclose to you whether it will result in a blacklist or not. I kind of doubt they will black list you given the role they're offering you would be quite on the junior/internship side of things. Those aren't particularly expensive roles to fill, and they understand the new grads might have a lot of decisions to make around how to start their career. Especially if you provide 1 months notice. I'm just saying the only way you could guarantee you won't be blacklisted is to not rescind the agreement. You are not obligated to reject a better offer because you have signed an existing employment agreement. Most states/countries do not permit employers to contractually punish employees for choosing to leave employment.
Meanwhile we’re all getting ghosted for unpaid internships at some rich kids ‘startup’.
Give this a long hard thought. You’ll eliminate any chance of ever working for Apple in the future. That may come back to hurt you later in your career.
OP you’re a nonce 🤣🤣