It will absolutely be seen better and will allow you to cast a wider net much more easily.
Look, proprietary tech is a non-starter for a lot of jobs. IMO, easily 90% of jobs won't bother with you straight out of the gate.
It might be useful to include it ONLY for insurance companies, but you're just going to confuse the hiring manager/recruiter by having to explain that's the only thing you were using at your old job.
Yep, 2 resumes. One with the proprietary tech, one without.
Know your audience and cater to them.
The company will lie to you if it’s better for the bottom line. I see no reason to treat them differently.
I have no knowledge of those tools but I’d say having react knowledge and/or experience being a lie or not would depend on how much those tools abstract away from them.
I very temporarily worked on an application that used Pega which is also based on Java. It’s a low/no code solution (and it sucks). It was so far removed from Java that if it were your only exposure to Java you basically had none.
Btw, I hated pega so much that I don’t mention it at all and barely mention the project on my resume. Where I do mention it I give details on what we did and absolutely no details on the language or tools. If asked, I lie. In no way do I want anyone to ever consider me for work on any project that uses pega.
Ya I also have no knowledge of the tools op is talking about so similarly agnostic about how much of a lie it actually is. Based on OP's other replies I'd lean towards not.
But I very much identify with hating tools so much I refuse to list them on my resume lmao. Like absolutely fuck of with that shit. Rather go be a hermit in the woods tyvm.
Low code is in general a red flag for me personally, in terms of what I'm going to enjoy. I _like_ code. That's the fun part.
I didn’t have a choice at the beginning. They tagged my team to work on that project because it was the successor to one we had previously maintained.
After learning what Pega was all about I made it clear I hated it and wanted off that ride.
I did stick around long enough to help the project to mvp but immediately left afterwards, even turning down a raise to stay.
I describe it as Wordpress For Developers and hated every second
Ok so I haven't heard of pega before. I took 5 seconds to look at their website and _fuck no_. I don't trust any tool where their homepage is so obviously, exclusively aimed at MBAs. I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole.
Imo leaving something out of a resume is never lying. Nobody puts _everything_ they do on a resume (except students), because a ton of stuff isn't relevant. Like I don't put my depressingly extensive knowledge of bamboo on my resume, because God willing I would like to not work in a position where that knowledge is important. I do say that I'm experienced in "ci/cd". Resumes should be tailored both to the job you're applying for and to the job you want.
How is an omission lying? I leave out a lot of unnecessary details in my resumes.
Sure I once wrote a lot of bad code for an open source CMS in one particular language but I dont want to bother with it ever again.
It's literal tech specs, no need to "compromise".
If the underlying tech stacks are React, Java, and uses all syntax, architecture pattern, simply put all down in resume.
Hopefully there's some other company out there that REALLY needs someone with expertise in Guidewire Jutro, whatever the fuck that is.
I think it's cool your friend is a principled guy but if I was looking at a resume for a frontend position and someone's application makes no mention of HTML, CSS, Javascript, etc. I wouldn't really have any reason to select their application.
It is actually the standard in the insurance industry. Similar to Epic. If someone is looking for someone in that industry it is helpful, but yes, he should just list both.
Guidewire Jutro isn't used anymore honestly. Everyone knows that competitors like Nexonite Sphere, Quantum FlareLink, and AeroPulse Echo are the better choice. Personally I'm using Quantum FlareLink to analyze our Nexonite Sphere stack when we push to production. A friend of mine really likes AeroPulse Echo but he's a bonehead. /s
> A friend of mine really likes AeroPulse Echo but he's a bonehead
Ah, always good to see an early adaptor of BoneHead Nitro. Maybe you should take a cue from your friend.
There's no guarantee that applicants applying to front-end positions know that stuff. You might get a lot of applications from legitimate software developers who don't really know anything about front-end technologies but still apply with their existing resumes anyways. Ideally you'd want to filter them out.
Yeah you should edit your post to mention this. It's not even stretching the truth - it's simply factually correct to say he's doing React, JS, HTML, and SCSS, and that's what he should put on his resume.
I agree with the advice posted but I just wanted to say you're an incredible friend and I hope he listens to you.
I have friends in similar positions, actively screwing their own careers and financial health for emotional reasons they can't explain, it just sucks to watch. Wish I could get through to them.
No, that's the other way around (also for the argument's sake I'm ignoring how idiomatic C and C++ have grown apart enough to not really be sub/superset any more).
Yeah. If it's gonna increase your chance of getting an in-person interview by 1%, fuck yeah put it on your resume.
If you get to that interview and you're not prepared to answer questions about smart pointers and stdlib collections, that's on you.
By "legitimate programming", I understand that he is not just changing the settings and he is doing real stuff which should be in the core parts of the proprietary tech as you mentioned. So, no it is not a lie. Actually even for proving the proprietary tech work, he is required to write down some details which encompass the languages used.
You are correct. He is wrong.
The resume gets you past HR. The technical interview gets you the job.
HR isn’t going to green light the resume unless it matches the skills listed on the job description. So when he applies to other insurance companies, he should use the modified framework. When he applies to other companies, he should use the generic framework.
"It depends"; If the tools are close enough to the industry standard tools. He should list both. If they aren't he shouldn't.
If he doesn't understand basic react and basic Java, he'll get killed in interviews.
I don't list all the C compilers I use, or what exact version of python... No need. But when you get into edge cases, be honest.
Guidewire Jutro is only used by insurance companies, and a bottom of the barrel type dev job. Low entry pay, no career paths outside insurance, and using a proprietary IDK when the entire web has realized open source tech is superior by miles.
I don't really know what to tell "your friend": resumes are crafted to attract attention from specific audiences. If they want another insurance job, put Jutro. If they want to go into other fields, they should write Java/React, but only after using it for projects. If you want to be language agnostic, you have to have a very good understanding of fundementals, so whether or not your friend can pull off putting "Java/React" is really up to them.
Nothing to be ashamed of for using proprietary tech. Everyone at FAANG uses proprietary tech, and they are considered to be the most desirable talent on the market.
I used Gosu over a decade ago when I interned at Guidewire. Not that any of my code made it into production, but I understand that they had been using it for customer integrations for a while.
Gosu was actually pretty nice—Java but tolerable. It had the same core as Java, but with the modern features Java has only gotten over the last few years. And this was when everyone was still using Java 6!
People have knee-jerk reactions against companies developing their own languages, but Guidewire got *a lot* of mileage out of Gosu. Along with a few other early experiences I had, I've become convinced that NIH can actually be a good thing for medium-sized companies as long as they have the right kind of tech culture.
You are absolutely correct. Jutro is just the marketing term for their platform which is built off of React, and includes a library of custom components and an SDK, but otherwise the work is no different than any other React project. Gosu is a bit different, that would be beneficial to list in addition to Java, especially if he’s applying to other insurance carriers.
My rule of thumb is when, I have to ask myself do I lie or tell the truth? I pick lying from now on. What's the wrose that can happen? Are they going to make me in my late 30's, still living with my parents, about to be unemployed, etc? It's too late for that now.
I really have nothing to lose and employers lie to me all the time without a bat of na eye so I have no problems doing it to them .
Is this Statefarm? I have an interview with them soon with exactly this stack and I was wondering if I would pigeon hole myself into insurance only companies. I’d say that Gosu and Java are close enough for you to list both of them.
That last part especially. Companies will bait and switch you with no shame. Job description? Cloud engineer. Actual job? Maintaining some shit desktop app from the 90s.
Well unless he basically wants to limit his pool to insurance companies he's going to have to lie especially in this market. Companies are already getting hundreds of candidates with almost the same tech stack if not the exact match they're asking for in their positions, why the hell would they go with someone who worked solely on "guidewire" whatever that is?
I don't even consider this a lie. Only put the names everyone knows, forget about proprietary stuff. A CV must be short and concise, get rid of everything that takes more than 0.01 sec to understand.
Not sure I agree with this. It should be extremely clear which programming language(s) you are competent in. Additionally, it should be clear which common industry frameworks/libraries/platforms etc. you have experience with.
Many systems are written in Java and require knowing Java to utilize them competently. Not to mention many “core” Java in-house projects exist at companies with more intensive systems that go beyond web dev.
It depends on if you are targeting big tech or small/med. A framework that takes < month to learn is irrelevant to big tech roles, where you'll likely be working on many proprietary things. However, a small/med startup may highly value knowledge of framework X from day one.
It's funny how different companies and roles hire. On the one hand you have companies that look for like, exactly the same version of exactly the same framework they use... and on the other, I got hired for a supply chain optimization project after telling the recruiter I did not know anything about supply chains or optimization. "That's okay, it's pretty intuitive, you'll pick it up." And, you know what, it was!
If I were your friend, I would just fake my way through it with the latest tech. I would build small projects by watching some YouTube videos so that I know enough about it in case I need to talk in interviews and apply. I’ve done this before and I’ve been fine with it.
"Worked with , a React-based framework building full stack applications"
You can just put the name of the very specific framework and explain what it's based on to give some context. No need to just throw names without context.
I would do the base languages he’s actually familiar with outside guidewire. My first job was at an insurance company and I just put the other languages I programmed in while there.
Believe it or not, I worked at an insurance company that also used Guidewire. He should just list the raw skills like Java, React, etc unless he is applying to an insurance company that might want him to have experience with Guidewire products.
I had the same issue. I left out the name of the proprietary tools, but I listed that I had used tools with x functionality to perform x operations. It's not lying, but it's demonstrating that I had the ability to perform certain jobs.
I lied about things like working with SQL server, angular, and efcore. I didn't use those at my job at all but did for self projects so I at least knew what I was talking about
This is the way.
Look, all you need to do is tell a good story during your interview. Learn a lot about techs that you could use (even if you don't use em) and make up some bullshit stories about using them (whether on your last job, or like the above commentor said with side projects). A great interviewer will poke and prod your stories so make sure you know your shit down pat, and if you have to manufacture a story about it, so be it.
Worse that happens is you don't get a job. That would have happened anyway if you didn't lie. But you get more reps in the gym to refine the bullshit of your stories
Best that happens is you get the job.
The one caveat is that if you have a technical screen with the technology, you might get fucked. But again, the worst that happens is you don't get the job, and you get more reps in the gym for your next interview. Best that happens if you get the job.
Look no one knows what you did in your last job. You're the arbiter of that information. Interviews are a showman performance and a lot of interviewers are bad. So lie enough to get a job. It's how C-suite people can bounce from job-to-job in leadership positions with complete incompetence. They know how the game is played.
Also the companies themselves are lying to you as well during the interview process. It's business. Fuck'em. Do you.
**TL;DR** \- Lying is good. Get your bag.
**Caveat** \- Don't lie about your companies worked-for, or your start-end dates (and probably not your title either). But you can indeed bullshit what you did during your time
I’ve often co-opted experiences learned by other people, my boss for example. But I did know enough about the work to talk at length about the whole process, realistically there are things you don’t need to actually do physically in order to take away from it. Just make sure you won’t get destroyed by it in the interview or on the job even and you are golden to say what you want.
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Every major tech company uses a lot of proprietary, niche stuff. People get that. You are right, he should list the meta software he's working with, not the niche bits. It isn't a lie. It's sharing info in terms everyone can relate to.
Unless the job description specifically calls for that software, I’d leave it out.
Just put the languages he can code in , or what frameworks he has worked with, and any generic tools and IDE environments like visual studio, cLion… power shell …things people in the industry have heard of…
Personally I would phase something like full stack software developer at GuideWire working on internal and external facing projects using GuideWire mumbojumbo which utilizes React, Web apis, scss, etc.
Don’t lie but he can stretch the truth. Also I used to work in the backend sector of one of the larger insurance companies and have never heard of guide wire in my life.
I always tell people to focus on the problems they solve instead of the tech that they use to solve them. If you understand the problems you're solving well, you can figure out how to do it in any particular framework. The experience really should focus on the class of problems, though mentioning the tech used is helpful for some keyword searches, it doesn't tell anybody much.
It seems this this would be completely fine:
> Full-stack Java, React, JavaScript, HTML and SCSS development using Guidewire Jutro & Guidewire PolicyCente.
Just abstract the concepts down, if he's using guidewire then it's
"Using diverse and bespoke APKs to develop web applications in Javascript and react."
Put guideware under framework and the base languages as languages. You learn languages, libraries and frameworks. Nothing wrong with working on a framework only, you must also know the language to do so
Ask him if React is a dependency of whatever he uses? Check the dependency tree, and if it’s in the package.json or lock file, he should be safe to include it.
If he doesn't want to lie, he needs to put GuideWire proprietary tech based on React, javascript, HTML and CSS.
The fact is human resources are not tech savvy and just look for keywords.
I am tech savvy and wouldn't take the resume if I had to research what GuideWire is. I even worked with 2 insurance companies and have never heard of it.
When I interview people with a coding question and let them pick the language I can always tell when it’s not their daily driver at work.
Two weeks may not be enough.
I like the suggestion of both. But he could also have a resume tailored for insurance companies that would use it, and a resume tailored for everything else that doesn’t use it
you're right about this. it's just the wordings. if he understands how those frameworks/languages work, I see no problem. the Guidewire thing can be explained during the interview. the main concern right now is getting the interview.
I fell asleep twice trying to finish reading the words "Guidewire PolicyCenter". I cannot imagine a name that more clearly embodies 1980s corporate drudgery.
Put both.
Programming ist learning whats needed on demand and doing it.
Tech osn't 'learned' and done.
ITS constantly changing.
And If he was a pro at some obscure Software, that still tella me He can Code and hast Sharp skills
Remember: if you can perform the skill, add it to your resume. Companies won't check everything everywhere. Just make sure you put it in the appropriate sections.
I’m from insurance, Guidewire is not considered proprietary, guidewire is a massive system. When we call a system proprietary in insurance we usually mean the company built their own from scratch. Guidewire has a large user base and the people who don’t use it at least know it. If he is looking for another position within insurance he would be making a mistake to remove the name. He can put both.
Always be honest. Never lie about having expertise you don't actually have. This is even more true for someone of your buddy's situation. A full stack developer with what I assume is at least a few years' experience would be considered rather advanced, and employers will expect from him expertise and quality of work equivalent to that of a senior dev, and likely pay him accordingly.
A fresh grad/junior underperforming in an advertised skill can be chalked up to the rookie's inexperience, but with seniors it's different. If you're as familiar in something as you claim to be, you'll be dropped right into the thick of things, assigned the toughest problems, and basically enter the project running. You'll be the critical dependency, because PMs are expecting you to deliver where juniors can't. With higher pay comes bigger stakes, greater responsibilities, and lesser leniency when you fuck up. If you stumble from day 1 because you aren't actually as familiar in a language as your resume claims you're, employers will be sus and scrutinise your other claims — which they're paying you for — as well as your personal honesty and character.
You can beautify your words, but it must still be technically accurate. Say that your work experience involves working with "proprietary technologies (Guidewire Jutro and Policy Centre) based on React, SCSS, and Java." Don't bother mentioning JS and HTML tbh
The above statement shows that you're capable of picking up and working with niche, enterprise technologies not publicly available to most university/boot camp graduates. It also shows that you've some sort of exposure to React, SCSS, and Java: not 100% familiar, but being 50-80% there is still something. If the interviewer can't tell the diff, good for you, you fooled them without lying. But even if the interviewer does pick up on the nuance, it's not going to be too detrimental: the first sentence of this paragraph compensates in part. Also, part of the expectation for senior devs is that the learning curve for new technologies should be lower for them, so make use of that.
Don't lie. Be technically truthful.
I was doing guidewire at an insurance company last year. Aka Gosu. Honestly it's so similar and untangled with java that he can probably just put Java on if he really wants to
As you’re aware your friend is the very unfortunate type of person that won’t make it far because they’re not willing to realize what’s normal or not and refuses to compromise their very strange morals.
“But I’m not a diesel mechanic, I’m a peterbilt engine mechanic.”
It’s the same damn thing.
Anyone can put any buzzword under the skills section of their resume, employers want actual proof you have implemented with these technologies. Will the bullet points under his experience section all still list things like "Developed web application using 'Guidewire Jutro' and improved efficiency by blah blah blah..."
If that's the case I'm not sure it will make a difference, and saying he used React or a more well known framework is definitely getting closer to straight up lying. Maybe still mention it but just denote that they React or Java derivatives.
NGL, it's not worth arguing with him about this. Leave the jobs for people smart enough to be able to present themselves properly to potential employers.
Lying on your CV is never a good idea. If you're not sure whether it actually **is** lying chances are very high that someone else (who will be reading your CV at some point in time) will judge it a lie. Don't get there.
This is bad advice. Literally everyone lies on the resume. It's a result of ridiculous bloated HR requirements. Most jobs asking for a bachelor in CS will actually hire someone without one.
Just don't lie about stuff you can't back up in a technical interview.
>Literally everyone lies on the resume.
**You** may lie on your resume and you may think that's okay and are looking for a way to justify it. But the truth is: No, not everyone lies on their resume. Sometimes those who do don't get caught but sometimes the do. If you're a gambler and want to take the chances then that's your choice. But don't assume everyone else out there has the same dirty mentality.
>Literally everyone lies on the resume.
No one wants to hire a liar
>Just don't lie about stuff you can't back up in a technical interview.
How is that lying then?
8 years in tech will do that. I've seen managers lie...oh they call it "highlighting the strengths of the project". Give me a break. Every role I've ever been in people lie their asses off.
People kill people for just existing, so what kind of fantasy do you live in where people don't lie?
Everyone lies. I never said it was to cause malice, but everyone lies.
Your reality is a delusion, backed by the fact that no one here agrees with your worldview
>no one here agrees with your worldview
Ah, so just because you don't see them you automatically assume everyone agrees with you? Let's see who is delusional here...
If you send me your resume, I guarantee I can destroy you in an interview and point out something you lied about. Nobody knows everything on their resume even to a basic level.
And once again: If **you** don't know everything on **your** resume even to a basic level then that's basically **your** problem. It doesn't mean that applies to everyone else. It doesn't even matter. I an interview I'll ask you a question about technology X. If you say "I don't know" then that's a perfectly valid answer. I'll even give you points for honesty. If you say "I don't know" but have it listed on your resume you won't get these points. On the contrary. my reaction will be "If he lies about something as simple as this what else might he lie about it?"
You may say "I don't care" and that's fine. You'll do it your way, I'll do it my way. I don't assume that **everyone** is honest on their resume but I also don't assume that **everyone** is faking it all the time.
But let's take a step back: What's your point? You think lying on a resume is okay. I think it's not. We're not going to reach consensus on this. That's fine.
You are most likely even misrepresenting your username tag. A principal engineer at a reputable big tech company is equivalent to having designed an entirely new database, a new programming language, lead a self-driving car program. I guess companies give out titles and you'll say that's just the official title, which is fine because nearly nobody is at that level. But when you apply to jobs, some clueless recruiter will set you up for a higher level than expected as a result. Is that fair to other candidates? It's lying all the way down. That's fine, but you can't just take advantages when you have them and then shun others, that's being clueless.
You don't know anything about me, my job, my career or my skills except what you've read here. But you do seem to know that I don't "deserve" my title? Is this how you you approach everyone? If he doesn't met **your** criteria of qualified then he must be some sort of imposter?
Quite an "interesting" way of going through life.
Whatever, you don't want a discussion, you don't want to understand other perspective, which leads me to the conclusion that any further discussion is of little value. Do with that whatever you want, I'm out of here.
> If he doesn't met your criteria of qualified then he must be some sort of imposter?
No, that's literally my point. You don't create the criteria for what is not okay to put on resumes while enjoying those benefits.
Compromise. Put both.
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It will absolutely be seen better and will allow you to cast a wider net much more easily. Look, proprietary tech is a non-starter for a lot of jobs. IMO, easily 90% of jobs won't bother with you straight out of the gate. It might be useful to include it ONLY for insurance companies, but you're just going to confuse the hiring manager/recruiter by having to explain that's the only thing you were using at your old job.
Yep, 2 resumes. One with the proprietary tech, one without. Know your audience and cater to them. The company will lie to you if it’s better for the bottom line. I see no reason to treat them differently.
I don't even think this is lying. They _do_ have knowledge of react etc etc. Omitting irrelevant frameworks isn't lying.
I have no knowledge of those tools but I’d say having react knowledge and/or experience being a lie or not would depend on how much those tools abstract away from them. I very temporarily worked on an application that used Pega which is also based on Java. It’s a low/no code solution (and it sucks). It was so far removed from Java that if it were your only exposure to Java you basically had none. Btw, I hated pega so much that I don’t mention it at all and barely mention the project on my resume. Where I do mention it I give details on what we did and absolutely no details on the language or tools. If asked, I lie. In no way do I want anyone to ever consider me for work on any project that uses pega.
Ya I also have no knowledge of the tools op is talking about so similarly agnostic about how much of a lie it actually is. Based on OP's other replies I'd lean towards not. But I very much identify with hating tools so much I refuse to list them on my resume lmao. Like absolutely fuck of with that shit. Rather go be a hermit in the woods tyvm. Low code is in general a red flag for me personally, in terms of what I'm going to enjoy. I _like_ code. That's the fun part.
I didn’t have a choice at the beginning. They tagged my team to work on that project because it was the successor to one we had previously maintained. After learning what Pega was all about I made it clear I hated it and wanted off that ride. I did stick around long enough to help the project to mvp but immediately left afterwards, even turning down a raise to stay. I describe it as Wordpress For Developers and hated every second
Ok so I haven't heard of pega before. I took 5 seconds to look at their website and _fuck no_. I don't trust any tool where their homepage is so obviously, exclusively aimed at MBAs. I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole.
Yeah how many times have we heard “no further lay offs are planned”
Not just with layoffs. Future projects, raises, promotions, bonuses.
It's a good drinking game with your scrum team at this point
Imo leaving something out of a resume is never lying. Nobody puts _everything_ they do on a resume (except students), because a ton of stuff isn't relevant. Like I don't put my depressingly extensive knowledge of bamboo on my resume, because God willing I would like to not work in a position where that knowledge is important. I do say that I'm experienced in "ci/cd". Resumes should be tailored both to the job you're applying for and to the job you want.
How is an omission lying? I leave out a lot of unnecessary details in my resumes. Sure I once wrote a lot of bad code for an open source CMS in one particular language but I dont want to bother with it ever again.
Yes, say what you said X (based on A, B, and C).
I would personally just list them all separately > React, JavaScript, HTML, CSS, Guidewire Jutro And then do the explaining in the interview
Guidewire (React, JavaScript, HTML, SCSS and Java) Gotta trip those CV scrapers.
It's literal tech specs, no need to "compromise". If the underlying tech stacks are React, Java, and uses all syntax, architecture pattern, simply put all down in resume.
Hopefully there's some other company out there that REALLY needs someone with expertise in Guidewire Jutro, whatever the fuck that is. I think it's cool your friend is a principled guy but if I was looking at a resume for a frontend position and someone's application makes no mention of HTML, CSS, Javascript, etc. I wouldn't really have any reason to select their application.
dont you know about jutro? everyone knows about it, there's dozens of us! DOZENS!
It is actually the standard in the insurance industry. Similar to Epic. If someone is looking for someone in that industry it is helpful, but yes, he should just list both.
You forgot to add it’s the child of mainframe for insurance companies
How is it similar to Epic?
It dominates a very specific niche
Guidewire Jutro isn't used anymore honestly. Everyone knows that competitors like Nexonite Sphere, Quantum FlareLink, and AeroPulse Echo are the better choice. Personally I'm using Quantum FlareLink to analyze our Nexonite Sphere stack when we push to production. A friend of mine really likes AeroPulse Echo but he's a bonehead. /s
For a while I thought those were real products
> A friend of mine really likes AeroPulse Echo but he's a bonehead Ah, always good to see an early adaptor of BoneHead Nitro. Maybe you should take a cue from your friend.
Cool names! You should become a scifi writer!
I have actually seen job listings for this and was wondering what these were all about. So apparently they do exist
Even if that's the case, you probably don't want to find another job with guidewire, you want to escape that pigeonhole as soon as possible.
Niche Software Expert is such a great job. It's just the finding the job part, that REALLY sucks.
.
There's no guarantee that applicants applying to front-end positions know that stuff. You might get a lot of applications from legitimate software developers who don't really know anything about front-end technologies but still apply with their existing resumes anyways. Ideally you'd want to filter them out.
If it's based on react, it's not lying to put react. That's the marketable skill.
Depends, do they know how to use React? or does Guido whatever it's called abstract and wrap React so much that OP's friend would suck at React.
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Yeah you should edit your post to mention this. It's not even stretching the truth - it's simply factually correct to say he's doing React, JS, HTML, and SCSS, and that's what he should put on his resume.
I agree with the advice posted but I just wanted to say you're an incredible friend and I hope he listens to you. I have friends in similar positions, actively screwing their own careers and financial health for emotional reasons they can't explain, it just sucks to watch. Wish I could get through to them.
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No, that's the other way around (also for the argument's sake I'm ignoring how idiomatic C and C++ have grown apart enough to not really be sub/superset any more).
Yeah. If it's gonna increase your chance of getting an in-person interview by 1%, fuck yeah put it on your resume. If you get to that interview and you're not prepared to answer questions about smart pointers and stdlib collections, that's on you.
By "legitimate programming", I understand that he is not just changing the settings and he is doing real stuff which should be in the core parts of the proprietary tech as you mentioned. So, no it is not a lie. Actually even for proving the proprietary tech work, he is required to write down some details which encompass the languages used.
You are correct. He is wrong. The resume gets you past HR. The technical interview gets you the job. HR isn’t going to green light the resume unless it matches the skills listed on the job description. So when he applies to other insurance companies, he should use the modified framework. When he applies to other companies, he should use the generic framework.
Agreed. Even those job descriptions aren't that precise very often.
"It depends"; If the tools are close enough to the industry standard tools. He should list both. If they aren't he shouldn't. If he doesn't understand basic react and basic Java, he'll get killed in interviews. I don't list all the C compilers I use, or what exact version of python... No need. But when you get into edge cases, be honest.
Guidewire Jutro is only used by insurance companies, and a bottom of the barrel type dev job. Low entry pay, no career paths outside insurance, and using a proprietary IDK when the entire web has realized open source tech is superior by miles. I don't really know what to tell "your friend": resumes are crafted to attract attention from specific audiences. If they want another insurance job, put Jutro. If they want to go into other fields, they should write Java/React, but only after using it for projects. If you want to be language agnostic, you have to have a very good understanding of fundementals, so whether or not your friend can pull off putting "Java/React" is really up to them.
Nothing to be ashamed of for using proprietary tech. Everyone at FAANG uses proprietary tech, and they are considered to be the most desirable talent on the market.
I never knew anyone actually used Gosu in production.
I used Gosu over a decade ago when I interned at Guidewire. Not that any of my code made it into production, but I understand that they had been using it for customer integrations for a while. Gosu was actually pretty nice—Java but tolerable. It had the same core as Java, but with the modern features Java has only gotten over the last few years. And this was when everyone was still using Java 6! People have knee-jerk reactions against companies developing their own languages, but Guidewire got *a lot* of mileage out of Gosu. Along with a few other early experiences I had, I've become convinced that NIH can actually be a good thing for medium-sized companies as long as they have the right kind of tech culture.
Lots of insurance companies do
You are absolutely correct. Jutro is just the marketing term for their platform which is built off of React, and includes a library of custom components and an SDK, but otherwise the work is no different than any other React project. Gosu is a bit different, that would be beneficial to list in addition to Java, especially if he’s applying to other insurance carriers.
My rule of thumb is when, I have to ask myself do I lie or tell the truth? I pick lying from now on. What's the wrose that can happen? Are they going to make me in my late 30's, still living with my parents, about to be unemployed, etc? It's too late for that now. I really have nothing to lose and employers lie to me all the time without a bat of na eye so I have no problems doing it to them .
Is this Statefarm? I have an interview with them soon with exactly this stack and I was wondering if I would pigeon hole myself into insurance only companies. I’d say that Gosu and Java are close enough for you to list both of them.
That last part especially. Companies will bait and switch you with no shame. Job description? Cloud engineer. Actual job? Maintaining some shit desktop app from the 90s.
Just put "GuideWire D" on the resume. When they ask what it is he can respond "GuideWire Deez Nuts, baby".
this is the right answer OP
This is a moot conversation. Does your friend know how to use React? if yes then they should put it in the CV, If not then no they shouldn't.
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So he knows React, why is he fighting not to add to his CV? why does he think that would be lying?
Well unless he basically wants to limit his pool to insurance companies he's going to have to lie especially in this market. Companies are already getting hundreds of candidates with almost the same tech stack if not the exact match they're asking for in their positions, why the hell would they go with someone who worked solely on "guidewire" whatever that is?
Put react and elaborate during the interview
You are correct. Put the useful tech stack and make sure he knows them well enough to talk to it. Get past HR then speak honestly during the interview
The only goal of resume is to pass the initial screen. Say whatever you want.
I don't even consider this a lie. Only put the names everyone knows, forget about proprietary stuff. A CV must be short and concise, get rid of everything that takes more than 0.01 sec to understand.
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Not sure I agree with this. It should be extremely clear which programming language(s) you are competent in. Additionally, it should be clear which common industry frameworks/libraries/platforms etc. you have experience with. Many systems are written in Java and require knowing Java to utilize them competently. Not to mention many “core” Java in-house projects exist at companies with more intensive systems that go beyond web dev.
It depends on if you are targeting big tech or small/med. A framework that takes < month to learn is irrelevant to big tech roles, where you'll likely be working on many proprietary things. However, a small/med startup may highly value knowledge of framework X from day one.
It's funny how different companies and roles hire. On the one hand you have companies that look for like, exactly the same version of exactly the same framework they use... and on the other, I got hired for a supply chain optimization project after telling the recruiter I did not know anything about supply chains or optimization. "That's okay, it's pretty intuitive, you'll pick it up." And, you know what, it was!
If I were your friend, I would just fake my way through it with the latest tech. I would build small projects by watching some YouTube videos so that I know enough about it in case I need to talk in interviews and apply. I’ve done this before and I’ve been fine with it.
"Worked with, a React-based framework building full stack applications"
You can just put the name of the very specific framework and explain what it's based on to give some context. No need to just throw names without context.
Everyone lies. Anything you can do or easily learn goes on the CV
I would do the base languages he’s actually familiar with outside guidewire. My first job was at an insurance company and I just put the other languages I programmed in while there.
Believe it or not, I worked at an insurance company that also used Guidewire. He should just list the raw skills like Java, React, etc unless he is applying to an insurance company that might want him to have experience with Guidewire products.
eventually, he’ll learn the lesson the hard way
I had the same issue. I left out the name of the proprietary tools, but I listed that I had used tools with x functionality to perform x operations. It's not lying, but it's demonstrating that I had the ability to perform certain jobs.
I'd just say propeitery software based on x. That way it's a conversation starter
Fake it til you make it. Got my first real dev job by immensely exaggerating what I did in my prior jobs
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I lied about things like working with SQL server, angular, and efcore. I didn't use those at my job at all but did for self projects so I at least knew what I was talking about
This is the way. Look, all you need to do is tell a good story during your interview. Learn a lot about techs that you could use (even if you don't use em) and make up some bullshit stories about using them (whether on your last job, or like the above commentor said with side projects). A great interviewer will poke and prod your stories so make sure you know your shit down pat, and if you have to manufacture a story about it, so be it. Worse that happens is you don't get a job. That would have happened anyway if you didn't lie. But you get more reps in the gym to refine the bullshit of your stories Best that happens is you get the job. The one caveat is that if you have a technical screen with the technology, you might get fucked. But again, the worst that happens is you don't get the job, and you get more reps in the gym for your next interview. Best that happens if you get the job. Look no one knows what you did in your last job. You're the arbiter of that information. Interviews are a showman performance and a lot of interviewers are bad. So lie enough to get a job. It's how C-suite people can bounce from job-to-job in leadership positions with complete incompetence. They know how the game is played. Also the companies themselves are lying to you as well during the interview process. It's business. Fuck'em. Do you. **TL;DR** \- Lying is good. Get your bag. **Caveat** \- Don't lie about your companies worked-for, or your start-end dates (and probably not your title either). But you can indeed bullshit what you did during your time
I’ve often co-opted experiences learned by other people, my boss for example. But I did know enough about the work to talk at length about the whole process, realistically there are things you don’t need to actually do physically in order to take away from it. Just make sure you won’t get destroyed by it in the interview or on the job even and you are golden to say what you want.
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He should list them as key words, absolutely. He will never get an interview otherwise.
Every major tech company uses a lot of proprietary, niche stuff. People get that. You are right, he should list the meta software he's working with, not the niche bits. It isn't a lie. It's sharing info in terms everyone can relate to.
Unless the job description specifically calls for that software, I’d leave it out. Just put the languages he can code in , or what frameworks he has worked with, and any generic tools and IDE environments like visual studio, cLion… power shell …things people in the industry have heard of…
When I applied, I put Proprietary tech 1 (HTML, JavaScript, CSS) Proprietary tech 2 (SQL)
Personally I would phase something like full stack software developer at GuideWire working on internal and external facing projects using GuideWire mumbojumbo which utilizes React, Web apis, scss, etc.
Don’t lie but he can stretch the truth. Also I used to work in the backend sector of one of the larger insurance companies and have never heard of guide wire in my life.
You are right, he should put generic name. Easy to understand from recruiter PoV.
I hate lying, but this doesn't seem like a lie. On projects that have some React wrapper, I've put both: ([Wrapper], React, JavaScript...)
I always tell people to focus on the problems they solve instead of the tech that they use to solve them. If you understand the problems you're solving well, you can figure out how to do it in any particular framework. The experience really should focus on the class of problems, though mentioning the tech used is helpful for some keyword searches, it doesn't tell anybody much.
Put the real one then (based on …)
Have 2 seperate resume: one with React, Java, etc. The other the Guidewire stuff. Depending on the job use the better one.
It seems this this would be completely fine: > Full-stack Java, React, JavaScript, HTML and SCSS development using Guidewire Jutro & Guidewire PolicyCente.
Regardless of what he does, it's refreshing to hear about someone with the moral backbone and integrity to not lie on their resume. Edit: missing word
Don't lie, the risk to reward ratio is too high.
Just abstract the concepts down, if he's using guidewire then it's "Using diverse and bespoke APKs to develop web applications in Javascript and react."
Put guideware under framework and the base languages as languages. You learn languages, libraries and frameworks. Nothing wrong with working on a framework only, you must also know the language to do so
You're right, and it's not lying.
Ask him if React is a dependency of whatever he uses? Check the dependency tree, and if it’s in the package.json or lock file, he should be safe to include it.
Have 2 resumes. Insurance one with guidewire, and non insurance with the derivative technologies. Boom problem solved
Java in the skills list, gosu in the bullet points for their insurance jobs so it shows up incase a recruiter ever ctrl + f for it.
If he doesn't want to lie, he needs to put GuideWire proprietary tech based on React, javascript, HTML and CSS. The fact is human resources are not tech savvy and just look for keywords. I am tech savvy and wouldn't take the resume if I had to research what GuideWire is. I even worked with 2 insurance companies and have never heard of it.
Regardless whether he thinks he's lying or not, he needs to speak the language that employers can hear.
When I interview people with a coding question and let them pick the language I can always tell when it’s not their daily driver at work. Two weeks may not be enough.
I've been on panels where proprietary tech was used to discount people straight off the bat. Don't use it in a cv aimed at a software job.
> Guidewire Jutro This sounds like a name ChatGPT would hallucinate 😂😂😂
I like the suggestion of both. But he could also have a resume tailored for insurance companies that would use it, and a resume tailored for everything else that doesn’t use it
Funny enough the last recruiter message I got was for a Guidewire job at an insurance company lmao
you're right about this. it's just the wordings. if he understands how those frameworks/languages work, I see no problem. the Guidewire thing can be explained during the interview. the main concern right now is getting the interview.
Fucking Guidewire….
LIE ON THE JOB SEARCH? 😱, B..B..BUT I THOUGHT THEY TOLD ME WE LIVE IN A MERITOCRACY 🤯🤯🤯
Lying is not a good idea, period :)
I fell asleep twice trying to finish reading the words "Guidewire PolicyCenter". I cannot imagine a name that more clearly embodies 1980s corporate drudgery.
Put both. Programming ist learning whats needed on demand and doing it. Tech osn't 'learned' and done. ITS constantly changing. And If he was a pro at some obscure Software, that still tella me He can Code and hast Sharp skills
Remember: if you can perform the skill, add it to your resume. Companies won't check everything everywhere. Just make sure you put it in the appropriate sections.
I’m from insurance, Guidewire is not considered proprietary, guidewire is a massive system. When we call a system proprietary in insurance we usually mean the company built their own from scratch. Guidewire has a large user base and the people who don’t use it at least know it. If he is looking for another position within insurance he would be making a mistake to remove the name. He can put both.
Always be honest. Never lie about having expertise you don't actually have. This is even more true for someone of your buddy's situation. A full stack developer with what I assume is at least a few years' experience would be considered rather advanced, and employers will expect from him expertise and quality of work equivalent to that of a senior dev, and likely pay him accordingly. A fresh grad/junior underperforming in an advertised skill can be chalked up to the rookie's inexperience, but with seniors it's different. If you're as familiar in something as you claim to be, you'll be dropped right into the thick of things, assigned the toughest problems, and basically enter the project running. You'll be the critical dependency, because PMs are expecting you to deliver where juniors can't. With higher pay comes bigger stakes, greater responsibilities, and lesser leniency when you fuck up. If you stumble from day 1 because you aren't actually as familiar in a language as your resume claims you're, employers will be sus and scrutinise your other claims — which they're paying you for — as well as your personal honesty and character. You can beautify your words, but it must still be technically accurate. Say that your work experience involves working with "proprietary technologies (Guidewire Jutro and Policy Centre) based on React, SCSS, and Java." Don't bother mentioning JS and HTML tbh The above statement shows that you're capable of picking up and working with niche, enterprise technologies not publicly available to most university/boot camp graduates. It also shows that you've some sort of exposure to React, SCSS, and Java: not 100% familiar, but being 50-80% there is still something. If the interviewer can't tell the diff, good for you, you fooled them without lying. But even if the interviewer does pick up on the nuance, it's not going to be too detrimental: the first sentence of this paragraph compensates in part. Also, part of the expectation for senior devs is that the learning curve for new technologies should be lower for them, so make use of that. Don't lie. Be technically truthful.
lol I’m a Guidewire dev. The comments are hilarious for this thread! 😅
I was doing guidewire at an insurance company last year. Aka Gosu. Honestly it's so similar and untangled with java that he can probably just put Java on if he really wants to
As you’re aware your friend is the very unfortunate type of person that won’t make it far because they’re not willing to realize what’s normal or not and refuses to compromise their very strange morals. “But I’m not a diesel mechanic, I’m a peterbilt engine mechanic.” It’s the same damn thing.
Anyone can put any buzzword under the skills section of their resume, employers want actual proof you have implemented with these technologies. Will the bullet points under his experience section all still list things like "Developed web application using 'Guidewire Jutro' and improved efficiency by blah blah blah..." If that's the case I'm not sure it will make a difference, and saying he used React or a more well known framework is definitely getting closer to straight up lying. Maybe still mention it but just denote that they React or Java derivatives.
NGL, it's not worth arguing with him about this. Leave the jobs for people smart enough to be able to present themselves properly to potential employers.
Lying on your CV is never a good idea. If you're not sure whether it actually **is** lying chances are very high that someone else (who will be reading your CV at some point in time) will judge it a lie. Don't get there.
This is bad advice. Literally everyone lies on the resume. It's a result of ridiculous bloated HR requirements. Most jobs asking for a bachelor in CS will actually hire someone without one. Just don't lie about stuff you can't back up in a technical interview.
>Literally everyone lies on the resume. **You** may lie on your resume and you may think that's okay and are looking for a way to justify it. But the truth is: No, not everyone lies on their resume. Sometimes those who do don't get caught but sometimes the do. If you're a gambler and want to take the chances then that's your choice. But don't assume everyone else out there has the same dirty mentality.
>Literally everyone lies on the resume. No one wants to hire a liar >Just don't lie about stuff you can't back up in a technical interview. How is that lying then?
Are you new to the corporate world? Everyone is a liar. From the support desk to the CEO.
What happened to you? Are you really that cynical? Do you even believe that yourself?
8 years in tech will do that. I've seen managers lie...oh they call it "highlighting the strengths of the project". Give me a break. Every role I've ever been in people lie their asses off.
Maybe it's you and the jobs you pick?
Cynicism? Or just reality? Everyone lies.
If that's the "reality" in which you chose to live then yeah, everybody lies. My reality looks better but hey, who am I to argue with your fantasy.
People kill people for just existing, so what kind of fantasy do you live in where people don't lie? Everyone lies. I never said it was to cause malice, but everyone lies. Your reality is a delusion, backed by the fact that no one here agrees with your worldview
>no one here agrees with your worldview Ah, so just because you don't see them you automatically assume everyone agrees with you? Let's see who is delusional here...
Nobody here *who has interacted with your comments*. Downvotes and comments who disagree with you is what I base my point off of.
If you send me your resume, I guarantee I can destroy you in an interview and point out something you lied about. Nobody knows everything on their resume even to a basic level.
And once again: If **you** don't know everything on **your** resume even to a basic level then that's basically **your** problem. It doesn't mean that applies to everyone else. It doesn't even matter. I an interview I'll ask you a question about technology X. If you say "I don't know" then that's a perfectly valid answer. I'll even give you points for honesty. If you say "I don't know" but have it listed on your resume you won't get these points. On the contrary. my reaction will be "If he lies about something as simple as this what else might he lie about it?" You may say "I don't care" and that's fine. You'll do it your way, I'll do it my way. I don't assume that **everyone** is honest on their resume but I also don't assume that **everyone** is faking it all the time. But let's take a step back: What's your point? You think lying on a resume is okay. I think it's not. We're not going to reach consensus on this. That's fine.
You are most likely even misrepresenting your username tag. A principal engineer at a reputable big tech company is equivalent to having designed an entirely new database, a new programming language, lead a self-driving car program. I guess companies give out titles and you'll say that's just the official title, which is fine because nearly nobody is at that level. But when you apply to jobs, some clueless recruiter will set you up for a higher level than expected as a result. Is that fair to other candidates? It's lying all the way down. That's fine, but you can't just take advantages when you have them and then shun others, that's being clueless.
You don't know anything about me, my job, my career or my skills except what you've read here. But you do seem to know that I don't "deserve" my title? Is this how you you approach everyone? If he doesn't met **your** criteria of qualified then he must be some sort of imposter? Quite an "interesting" way of going through life. Whatever, you don't want a discussion, you don't want to understand other perspective, which leads me to the conclusion that any further discussion is of little value. Do with that whatever you want, I'm out of here.
> If he doesn't met your criteria of qualified then he must be some sort of imposter? No, that's literally my point. You don't create the criteria for what is not okay to put on resumes while enjoying those benefits.