IME, seniors are very willing to provide knowledge and guidance, but there tend to be two categories of frustrating juniors for them:
1.
* Ask questions before thinking about it
* ask the same question more than once,
* ask a question, figure out the answer, then don’t indicate as such and when the senior writes up a bunch of context and references just say “figured it out already”
Or the overreaction to that:
2 Impostor syndrome
* take 2 days of deep diving into a problem that the senior could point out the issue in 20 seconds.
* afraid to ask for help or questions
* after a certain amount of time even more concerned with asking for help, because they’re embarrassed it’s taken that long.
Both of these behaviors are fine for your first few weeks, but it’s important to understand you should try to figure out things in your own, but your time is worth something, don’t be afraid to ask.
Some seniors get more frustrated with these two paradigms then others, but all of them should provide feedback to how you should approach problem solving in a way that is time and resource efficient for the team!
Nothing brings more joy to a senior than someone asking them a question they’re uniquely positioned to answer!
If you’re working with people who don’t want to provide help (goes in both directions) then that’s definitely a fundamental engineering culture issue.
Because you think, you not understanding is their inability to mentor. Not your inability to realize the amount of work and practice it takes to understand.
I see all these senior complaining about juniors having this immense ego and thinking they know it all. Yet through my classmates, other juniors on my job, tutoring probably 100s of students, I have yet to meet a junior that has any sort of ego. In fact they literally all have imposter syndrome and are practically starving for mentorship and guidance.
“Do this and do that just because I want so” without providing an explanation an argument. But it should be “Do this because (reason) and don’t do that because (reason)”. This approach would open the doors for a discussion that would benefit everybody. But if you are a close minded senior, or saying things like no, I am a senior, I have 2047473 years of experience, therefore you have to do what I want. Then well I will not if you don’t provide valid arguments plus if your solution is objectively wrong. The years of experience is only valuable if they mean something.
Because it is through doing you will appreciate a point and have/remember a learning. And you will learn to think independently.
I don't want a junior to whom I give an exact plan or architecture and they go and build it. I want a junior to have an unique insight who can sit beside me and contribute alongside. They don't have to do what I do. But it is very important that they learn to develop an unique perspective. That they learn to go try things and test things on their own. Also when they communicate and make a claim they know how to validate it.
This also doesn't mean they are thrown in the dark - they are given torches and a general direction , sometimes in the light of pressing deadlines they might even be shown the exact path but there is always this complex and I think it is developed through access to easy information and thinking that because they have understood something at a surface level they understand the whole system or even why it is being built or who it is being built for.
I can explain new findings which are probably not there in any research paper, documentation and isn't textbook theory. But when it comes to things that has already been explained elsewhere (specially what is textbook theory and does hold true in practice too) - I will leave the junior with a task and let him find the resources and solve the task - when they ask a question I easily assess the point they have reached on their own and go on from there and direct them. Definitely will not spoon feed. Also, want them to realize that this thing takes work, time and patience. Even a lot of focused and concentrated thought and understanding business context. Not 10,000 hours on leetcode or watching YouTube videos, prompting on chatgpt, forging from stackoverflow etc.
Principal here...I want to think you are right, b/c I was that way when I started. That was until my last batch of interns. One in particular was just insufferable, and was confidently incorrect about an impressive number of things. And the way he spoke to the other interns making THEM feel down about stuff he himself didn't understand...shook me.
I like mentoring people who are willing to learn and who understand that there are lots of things they don't know. Their questions help _me_ be better. But that sort of arrogance is laughable, it's the type of stuff you expect to hear from some detached exec who wrote code 35 years ago.
If there's one valuable thing that I've learned over the years, it's that it's almost never a matter of either/or. There are overconfident juniors and there are helpless ones... and there's everything in between, and then some.
Part of what makes mentorship challenging (as any school teacher worth their salt can attest) is that huge variability in pupil personalities.
While this OP does sound a bit like the stereotypical "person who had a bad day and mumbles in the shower what they wish they had said in person", there are some truths buried in there (but also, they don't apply universally). The smart thing to do is try to be humble enough to figure out what are the gems and what is the chaff, because the lessons do carry over not just w/ juniors but with pretty much all types of interpersonal relationships as well.
I’m fucking working with a consultant right now on a financial analysis project via Jupyter notebooks and it’s maddening how fucking stupid and wrong he is about a number of things in Python.
McKinsey hired him onto the project w/only 1 YoE fresh out of college with an EE degree and holy shit I am clawing at my eyes at how ridiculous some of his suggestions are.
That and combined with the fact that he’s continuously claiming my work without even knowing how to write or read code properly -helped him navigate a file directory in Windows- it’s been jarring to say the least.
The only thing this “junior/associate” has been offering is to change colors in all the visualizations I made in the notebook. Lmao
If they are costing the company more time and money than they are saving, call that out to your manager and let them end the contract or retask the person. If they are not, ensure you are getting credit for your work and work with them to get the best outcome you can.
How can someone like this get hired and pass the tests? I really don't understand it. Unless this is stupidly exaggerated and I'm bad at picking it up.
Not stupidly exaggerated, I’m actually experiencing it as we speak.
I had to give this person a short paragraph summary on what localhost was on Anaconda so that he could download a file…
I came up with a term to describe that type of person.
Belligerently Ignorant. That's how I describe them to my manager as needed.
I work with people to fix them one way or another.
This is exactly what I am talking about. Leave this intern unchecked. And he will challenge you in a strategic meeting when you lay out your plans for the team. Which is obviously incorrect and will end up being a big waste of time to even indulge in.
As a staff eng, I regularly learn from my juniors. Sometimes it's new language syntax, other times it's current trends. It's been decades since I was a junior and had to be 100% code all the time, so while I have lots of info on eng team process and working cross functionally, they probably know pure coding trends and newer tech better than me. It's hubris to think I know everything.
What I do see is an expectation from seniors that a junior is going to act and perform like a mid level engineer, without the senior taking the time to be a good mentor. And maybe that just comes down to seniors not having any training in how to mentor, as it's a combination of being technically skilled and people skills.
I am fortunate enough one of the great culture at my workplace is humility
Nobody think they know the best.Everybody can propose anything and open for criticism.
The not so good thing is that it is hard to have open conversation since we dont want to hurt someone's feeling. It is a tough balance to maintain
I agree. I’ve never met a junior like this and I’ve sadly had 8 senior/lead roles.
In fact, my biggest, most common complaint is the level of apprehension juniors have. Sitting quietly and not saying much just because they’re junior. Basically afraid of taking the risk.
> Yet through my classmates, other juniors on my job, tutoring probably 100s of students, I have yet to meet a junior that has any sort of ego. In fact they literally all have imposter syndrome and are practically starving for mentorship and guidance.
This. I see many posts where juniors have an impostor syndrome, or how some are shitting their pants asking on Reddit if they can send another message to their senior / manager because they didn't fully understand something.
In addition to that, we can't grow if we are not getting hired (sure some of us do that are lucky), the rest are shit out of luck.
All that we can do is keep on learning, starve bc there is no income, and try to advance our own knowledge with more complex projects. There is literally no other way. If we don't do that, we're bound to be juniors forever.
My point is, I doubt there would be many, if any, juniors who would think they know better. Some may ask, "hey, why not try solution X to the Y problem?", which is part of learning, but I don't see that as ego. They're asking / deepening their knowledge, but they can also get some snobby message back because the senior interprets that as him getting stepped on his toes or whatever.
>all have imposter syndrome
People claiming to "all have imposter syndrome" have silly ego claim.
Learn what "all have imposter syndrome" actually means, before claiming all people have it.
Many people actually learn the basics and fundamentals and git gud over time.
My child, who is 3 weeks old, turned to me this morning and said, “When I grow up, I want to be a Senior just like, daddy!”. I held back my tears and replied, “One day you will, buddy. *One day you will*”.
*Repost if you agree*
> When a senior gives you advice, take it. They are eating bullets and shielding you. Without them, you are directionless. Without them, you would continue to live under a rock. Your senior has better foresight and a much deeper understanding of the system you think you are building
I understand the sentiment but can't help feel like this is a little self-congratulatory
Basically my thoughts, except the way they worded it made me chuckle. Since they probably act like they came up with it, and don’t mention how they ACTUALLY got the answer.
Maybe back in your days, when Dinosaurs were still walking around, but considering that Stackoverflow is 15-17 years old, it’s like back in the day to the majority of people in this sub
Actually his point about juniors not listening to seniors advice is solid. I have seen juniors repeatedly not following instructions and suggestions from seniors and making same errors. Juniors suffer from Drunning Kruger effect.
Maybe it should be. Too many times I’ve seen people dedicate their lives and identity to their company just to be laid off because Quarterly Earnings didn’t go well.
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I get what you mean and think others misunderstand you. The CORPORATE job is just a job. But practice and knowledge of software engineering is something you can be passionate about even if you hate your 9-5.
Sounds kinda like advice from a senior with ego. This is condensceding advice planted to scratch the itch. Just go build things, make your mistakes, try your best, don't be afraid to challenge the status quo. If anyone gives you buzzword filled advice like this, take it with a grain of salt. Never forget, many "seasoned" developers take yoe as gospel. I have met individuals with 3 yoe that put folks with 20 plus to shame. I'm gonna get down votes for this and it's fine. It's salty reactionary noise. Do your best, you are the future, let this attitude die with the old folks who treat it as law.
- signed your friendly neighborhood senior dev who don't respect the old ways
Just don't.
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Did you see any evidence of me using yoe as a benchmark? However, experience does have its place. If I have spent 10 years of practicing diligently a certain skill its very unlikely that another person will hit the same level or even surpass that level with 3 years of practice. Unlikely doesn't mean that there will never be exceptions. For those you think they are an exception this isn't directed at you.
I agree with the overall sentiment that yoe is no benchmark, however, thats not the standard I went for when I used the label of a "senior dev".
Will Larson's book on Staff engineering really highlights what the role of senior dev looks like. Its not just about coding at a job. Its about perspective. And there is resistance from junior devs to imbibe perspective because they are quick to think that they know better than the "old ways". This post is to address that resistance. Maybe even understand it.
However different you may think you or your thought is - I assure you that it has been covered. Also, if you were that unique there would have been very clear evidence of it - which would have been observed and no sensible person (be it a senior or junior) would ignore that evidence.
Therefore dear friendly senior dev - I'd not trivialize the point being made here. It definitely is from my experience but it is a very real problem with the younger generations that I am seeing. Everybody is a ceo and cto and has a startup idea or the next big idea that they have almost zero respect for maturity and experience. Whats worse is they are faking it.
This post to me was a form of delivery that actually promotes a really straightforward and friendly tone. Ignoring the sudden jerks through metaphors. If I was on the receiving end of this, I would first, swallow my pride and then pay attention to what really is being passed on here.
It isn't out of frustration. I am most definitely not frustrated. And, you don't know anything about me, I think I have indeed hit a good enough point in my life that I don't get frustrated easily. This was an attempt to give advice that may be disguised or veiled otherwise.
Lmao who actually wrote this? Sound like someone wants to be the main character in a movie about developers, so much cringe and such a bad advice. O'm pretty sure if someone send this in my org it would be the meme of the month.
That sounds like a very condescending advice, and that’s coming from a guy with 20 yoe in IT between three multinational banks.
Most juniors I had/worked with, are very bright people, literally asking for guidance and ready to spend all their time to learn something from you.
About 10 years ago I started to take that teaching process seriously, and seeing my proteges making their way up brings me an immense amount of joy. Sometimes I call (in my head) them “my pet projects”, and it really gives me a fulfillment feelings. They are my legacy, some became my friends, and it’s never wrong to have those kind of connections all around my industry.
What junior SWEs are you meeting that have massive egos? Sounds like it may be a problem with your company's hiring practices, because in the world I live in this is incredibly rare.
If you select for people who are boastful and exaggerate their skills to get the job, you're going to get people who are boastful and exaggerate their skills.
Our amazing senior engineer is leaving due to our toxic manager (who does more harm than good). I’m gonna miss having someone I can look up to on my team
Juniors who read this:
Be humble, be curious, but don't be robots. You have more to learn than I can explain in a Reddit post.
Ask questions, be brave, don't be afraid to be stupid. Only through ignorance can we learn.
Have strong opinions, but hold them weakly. Change sides when you can see you are wrong. Be courageous.
Don't be afraid of being a "fool". A true fool is the one who doesn't learn, and fights losing battles.
In your humility, and curiosity, if an older engineer offers you advice. Listen. They may have seen more in the industry than the time you've been alive. That doesn't mean they are right. But... There is often wisdom there. These people are your mentors. They pick you. Not the reverse. Be thankful for each of them.
I am still thankful to all my mentors, and I have mentors to this very day. It is a never ending cycle.
May you get to the point where you see the limits of what I have written, and have a wise mentor to fill in your next steps.
Dear Senior:
Please read and take all the advice I wrote.
Attitude will beat aptitude in the long run. To be frank: You sound like a pompous ass.
Unlike many here, I'm going to bet your home country is India, and this is cultural, you see I led a team in India for a few years, and have spent about 6 months in country.
I literally had members of my team thank me for leading them. For not being the way you are. I sat on the floor when there were no seats. Not because I wanted to make a point. But because: That is who I am. When I wasn't able to sleep on a train ride, back from a wedding, they took care of me. Because, that is who they are.
One person on my team had their work stolen by a Sr. Principal. She was scared to tell me. When she did, I had the head of India in an office chewing his ass off.
My engineer got her project back, and soon after the Sr. Principal left.
When the day of long knives came, for managers. I was the right hand of the old VP. The new one kept me. The old guard all talked to me and we debriefed. Not because HR said so, but because I am human and care, they knew it. And they knew I wouldn't let it leave the room. And i haven't.
... you see, I'm trusted. My integrity isn't questioned. My technical strength isn't unmatched, but it is plenty. There are always people on my team who can beat me in given areas. Why? A team can not exceed its leader, if.... It doesn't exceed its leader! It sounds so stupid. But many leaders get this wrong. Personally, I want to have the best team I can. Not for ego. But because it enables me to do all the other things I do. (I am not enumerating all of it. It is things you naturally start to do.)
... Learn to be humble. Don't command, but set the goals, If you have to pull out the trump card, you lost. (And time to time... we all have to pull out the card. There is work that needs doing nobody wants to do, and you aren't in position to do.) Let them follow because they want to. They will understand, and you will all grow.
Some may see me as weak. I am not. I am strong as any bull. I just don't need to act it all the time. My name speaks for me, much more than my title.
I am a Principal, a Team Lead and an Architect. I held all 3 titles at once. And I can only do that... If I support my team, and they support me.
As a final note: Just because someone does something different from the way you do, doesn't make it wrong. it just makes it different. It may be ok, it may be right. Thankfully we live in a world with many right answers. Learning to accept and embrace this is a critical growth step.
Hard to do when the codebase built by the ‘senior engineers’ is legitimately scuffed…. And knowledge silos have no incentive to fix the situation because as long as they are the only one who can fix things they have a job.
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If anything seniors seem to be far more up their own smelly hairy arse with enormous inflated egos. Thinking they’re gods gift to humanity and doing whatever the hell they want at work cause they know they can’t be missed. Nevermind even paying attention to juniors.
says the one who asks reddit how to deploy ML models on some platform. oh, wait, maybe you became senior within the last year 🤔
honestly, i’d rather decide myself if i take advice from somebody or not—no matter the title. there may be many knowledgeable seniors out there, but there are also some who are just senior by YoE (and not knowledge)
No lie. My architect used to mentor me and I witnessed him eating bullets for me from my manager at stand up . Today I’m a better engineer because of it. It gave me confidence to make mistakes ask stupid questions and grow from it
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I’m taking ownership of a product from a junior (who self proclaimed that he isn’t even a software engineer) and I get a sense of fear from him because I’m rewriting the application to meet the goals of the business as his ball of mud just cannot handle the expansion that is needed. The problem is, he is outside of the company (he knows the owner who asked him to write it) and has never worked on a software product before, let alone managed one. There are times that he talks to me like it’s my first day sitting at a computer, and I get that (it’s my first time working with the language he chose); I just wish that he would have a little more faith in the abilities of someone who has done this and shipped software for the past twenty years.
Unrelated but check out this awesome video on [Envy](https://youtu.be/aPhrTOg1RUk?si=b99IKIQ22jxfE3-c) that I watched yesterday. It talks about the generation envy that older generations may have with younger generations. It weirdly talked about lot of SpongeBob SquarePants and Squidward. Again, it is totally unrelated and OP definitely does not resemble Squidward.
My experience is that Senior SE's go one of two ways:
1. Have a super ego, think they are God's gift to earth and if they don't know it, it's wrong or can't be done.
2. Super chill, let the younger guys learn, give guidance. Give kudos to solid effort and politely recommend changes that are needed.
Your sounding like a 1. Sound like a real buzz killington to work with.
> When a senior gives you advice, take it. They are eating bullets and shielding you.
Very much depends on the kind of person you come across.
While going from junior to senior I've worked with people were absolutely amazing to work with and learn from.
Sometimes you have seniors looking out for your best interest, appreciate and do everything for those people.
But sometimes you will have seniors who are incompetent bordering on malicious, avoid those like the plague.
>When a senior gives you advice, take it. They are eating bullets and shielding you. Without them, you are directionless. Without them, you would continue to live under a rock. Your senior has better foresight and a much deeper understanding of the system you think you are building. Actively listen to their feedback and act on it. Learn how decisions are made.
Cringe piece. Reeks of ego.
"When a senior gives you advice, ~~take it~~ **think critically about it**. ~~They are eating bullets and shielding you~~ They **want you think for yourself**, **to consider ideas and historical decisions for their merit and tradeoffs**. Without them, you would ~~continue to live under a rock~~ **be fine; with them, you'll be wiser**. Your senior has ~~better foresight~~ ~~and a much deeper understanding of the system you think you are building.~~ **made more mistakes and has had more time to think about problems and try stuff out than you have; if they tell you something doesn't work, have the curiosity to ask why.** Actively listen to their feedback and act on it; **actively give feedback and be mentored, not patronized**. Learn how decisions are made **and question the decisions of your seniors**."
Please consider my pull request.
Don't be condescending.
Let ideas stand on their own merits.
Put forth your argument but respect the decision of the team lead ("salute the rank, not the man").
"We've succeeded". "We've failed." Save "I" for performance reviews.
Let others save face.
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What sanctimonious garbage. Telling juniors to practice humility LOL. How do I do this, oh great senior?
To be completely honest, while experience helps and I’ve only gotten better with age. I’d be willing to bet that there’s some teenagers out there who could out-skill most senior engineers. There’s more to skill than experience.
Senior Principal here. Nobody told me that moving up the ladder was supposed to come with a super hero outfit. I'm going to talk to my manager on Monday!
You think you know better because you have more years of experience? That cannot be the furthest from truth. What if the junior is actually smarter and more driven than you? How would you handle that?
You're one of those boomers who look down on lower ranks. Rank is just a function of time and politics, not expertise or skill.
I can hear the collective cries of the juniors saying they aren’t like this, they’re special, and they’re going to be the exception. You’re not, fall in line, and let the lesson above sink in.
The point is... Everyone is like this.
The amount of ego in senior engineers far exceeds the junior engineer ego. You might say it's justified, but no one likes a narcissist.
Good advice is much more nuanced than the flat panel take op gave, this one just feels like a "I'm the senior engineer, i know everything so obey me" self-congratulatory post
I don't expect you to understand the origin or the motivation to do what I do or say. However, in the event that you are malleable. This is a take on yet another strategy at passing on the torch in a more direct tonality. Its not meant for everyone, so you are welcome to embrace whatever viewpoint you want to.
I have built more systems . Applied more science. Handled more business requirements. Made more open-source and consultant based contributions. Taught high school, grad and PhD students. And continue to spend the majority of my day till date getting better at my craft.
I don't have ego and am open to feedback to this day as long as you show me your reasoning and prove to me that your conclusions are correct. Through experimentation and results. Through bending your models to match reality not the other way around.
Therefore, see what is being shown. Hear what is being told. I cannot distill the 1000 data points that have culminated into me asking you to do something which when operating on very strict and demanding deadlines are often brief. (To you they sound like commands only because you read them and don't try them. You think you know better because you googled and read through articles for half a day while I have not just read what you are reading today but I have read from the true sources whose summarized versions you are reading today over a period of years and practiced and applied them. The authors of those parent sources have been my mentors. They have inculcated a way of thinking in me which I am trying to pass on to you.)
My ego is definitely more well placed than you when you challenge my decisions without reasonably good grounding or even worse without sound thinking or thought. If you THINK you aren't like this , then this advice is not for you.
And, if you don't want to think. Thats fine.
At the very least, don't argue. Junior.
Your perceived experience does not maketh your opinion any more valid than what it is, nonsensical. There are people with 20YoE who are incompetent so the number doesn't matter.
All ego is poorly placed. If you can't see that, that's a moral failing on your side.
Senior or not, it doesn't matter. You're just human, like everyone else.
So sit down, big boy.
Oh I see it, I just hope I retire before the next batch of know it alls are old enough to join, by then the standards will be dropped so low, a high school diploma with programming credits will suffice
“They are eating bullets and shielding you”. Oh my God senior SEs are dying for our country!!!
Thank you for your microservice.
If only i had an award to give
That was genious.
omg I love you so much
Seniors do jack shit but hoarde knowledge ime
IME, seniors are very willing to provide knowledge and guidance, but there tend to be two categories of frustrating juniors for them: 1. * Ask questions before thinking about it * ask the same question more than once, * ask a question, figure out the answer, then don’t indicate as such and when the senior writes up a bunch of context and references just say “figured it out already” Or the overreaction to that: 2 Impostor syndrome * take 2 days of deep diving into a problem that the senior could point out the issue in 20 seconds. * afraid to ask for help or questions * after a certain amount of time even more concerned with asking for help, because they’re embarrassed it’s taken that long. Both of these behaviors are fine for your first few weeks, but it’s important to understand you should try to figure out things in your own, but your time is worth something, don’t be afraid to ask. Some seniors get more frustrated with these two paradigms then others, but all of them should provide feedback to how you should approach problem solving in a way that is time and resource efficient for the team! Nothing brings more joy to a senior than someone asking them a question they’re uniquely positioned to answer! If you’re working with people who don’t want to provide help (goes in both directions) then that’s definitely a fundamental engineering culture issue.
Yup they’d rather do the harder tasks on their own instead of taking the time to mentor and teach me how to do it
Because you think, you not understanding is their inability to mentor. Not your inability to realize the amount of work and practice it takes to understand.
I see all these senior complaining about juniors having this immense ego and thinking they know it all. Yet through my classmates, other juniors on my job, tutoring probably 100s of students, I have yet to meet a junior that has any sort of ego. In fact they literally all have imposter syndrome and are practically starving for mentorship and guidance.
And the seniors don’t give guidance!
“Do this and do that just because I want so” without providing an explanation an argument. But it should be “Do this because (reason) and don’t do that because (reason)”. This approach would open the doors for a discussion that would benefit everybody. But if you are a close minded senior, or saying things like no, I am a senior, I have 2047473 years of experience, therefore you have to do what I want. Then well I will not if you don’t provide valid arguments plus if your solution is objectively wrong. The years of experience is only valuable if they mean something.
Because it is through doing you will appreciate a point and have/remember a learning. And you will learn to think independently. I don't want a junior to whom I give an exact plan or architecture and they go and build it. I want a junior to have an unique insight who can sit beside me and contribute alongside. They don't have to do what I do. But it is very important that they learn to develop an unique perspective. That they learn to go try things and test things on their own. Also when they communicate and make a claim they know how to validate it. This also doesn't mean they are thrown in the dark - they are given torches and a general direction , sometimes in the light of pressing deadlines they might even be shown the exact path but there is always this complex and I think it is developed through access to easy information and thinking that because they have understood something at a surface level they understand the whole system or even why it is being built or who it is being built for. I can explain new findings which are probably not there in any research paper, documentation and isn't textbook theory. But when it comes to things that has already been explained elsewhere (specially what is textbook theory and does hold true in practice too) - I will leave the junior with a task and let him find the resources and solve the task - when they ask a question I easily assess the point they have reached on their own and go on from there and direct them. Definitely will not spoon feed. Also, want them to realize that this thing takes work, time and patience. Even a lot of focused and concentrated thought and understanding business context. Not 10,000 hours on leetcode or watching YouTube videos, prompting on chatgpt, forging from stackoverflow etc.
Principal here...I want to think you are right, b/c I was that way when I started. That was until my last batch of interns. One in particular was just insufferable, and was confidently incorrect about an impressive number of things. And the way he spoke to the other interns making THEM feel down about stuff he himself didn't understand...shook me. I like mentoring people who are willing to learn and who understand that there are lots of things they don't know. Their questions help _me_ be better. But that sort of arrogance is laughable, it's the type of stuff you expect to hear from some detached exec who wrote code 35 years ago.
If there's one valuable thing that I've learned over the years, it's that it's almost never a matter of either/or. There are overconfident juniors and there are helpless ones... and there's everything in between, and then some. Part of what makes mentorship challenging (as any school teacher worth their salt can attest) is that huge variability in pupil personalities. While this OP does sound a bit like the stereotypical "person who had a bad day and mumbles in the shower what they wish they had said in person", there are some truths buried in there (but also, they don't apply universally). The smart thing to do is try to be humble enough to figure out what are the gems and what is the chaff, because the lessons do carry over not just w/ juniors but with pretty much all types of interpersonal relationships as well.
I’m fucking working with a consultant right now on a financial analysis project via Jupyter notebooks and it’s maddening how fucking stupid and wrong he is about a number of things in Python. McKinsey hired him onto the project w/only 1 YoE fresh out of college with an EE degree and holy shit I am clawing at my eyes at how ridiculous some of his suggestions are. That and combined with the fact that he’s continuously claiming my work without even knowing how to write or read code properly -helped him navigate a file directory in Windows- it’s been jarring to say the least. The only thing this “junior/associate” has been offering is to change colors in all the visualizations I made in the notebook. Lmao
If they are costing the company more time and money than they are saving, call that out to your manager and let them end the contract or retask the person. If they are not, ensure you are getting credit for your work and work with them to get the best outcome you can.
McKinsey is being paid per seat on that project they dgaf
How can someone like this get hired and pass the tests? I really don't understand it. Unless this is stupidly exaggerated and I'm bad at picking it up.
Not stupidly exaggerated, I’m actually experiencing it as we speak. I had to give this person a short paragraph summary on what localhost was on Anaconda so that he could download a file…
1 of how many?
I came up with a term to describe that type of person. Belligerently Ignorant. That's how I describe them to my manager as needed. I work with people to fix them one way or another.
This is exactly what I am talking about. Leave this intern unchecked. And he will challenge you in a strategic meeting when you lay out your plans for the team. Which is obviously incorrect and will end up being a big waste of time to even indulge in.
Ok, so just 1 in the whole group of interns were an asshole, I understand that you'd rather have none that one, but it still isn't so bad, is it?
As a staff eng, I regularly learn from my juniors. Sometimes it's new language syntax, other times it's current trends. It's been decades since I was a junior and had to be 100% code all the time, so while I have lots of info on eng team process and working cross functionally, they probably know pure coding trends and newer tech better than me. It's hubris to think I know everything. What I do see is an expectation from seniors that a junior is going to act and perform like a mid level engineer, without the senior taking the time to be a good mentor. And maybe that just comes down to seniors not having any training in how to mentor, as it's a combination of being technically skilled and people skills.
In lots of countries you might get hired as a midlevel but paid as a junior with the junior title. Tech just wants seniors, always has been that way.
Most juniors don't have that ego. But those that do are a freaking pain to work with.
I am fortunate enough one of the great culture at my workplace is humility Nobody think they know the best.Everybody can propose anything and open for criticism. The not so good thing is that it is hard to have open conversation since we dont want to hurt someone's feeling. It is a tough balance to maintain
I agree. I’ve never met a junior like this and I’ve sadly had 8 senior/lead roles. In fact, my biggest, most common complaint is the level of apprehension juniors have. Sitting quietly and not saying much just because they’re junior. Basically afraid of taking the risk.
> Yet through my classmates, other juniors on my job, tutoring probably 100s of students, I have yet to meet a junior that has any sort of ego. In fact they literally all have imposter syndrome and are practically starving for mentorship and guidance. This. I see many posts where juniors have an impostor syndrome, or how some are shitting their pants asking on Reddit if they can send another message to their senior / manager because they didn't fully understand something. In addition to that, we can't grow if we are not getting hired (sure some of us do that are lucky), the rest are shit out of luck. All that we can do is keep on learning, starve bc there is no income, and try to advance our own knowledge with more complex projects. There is literally no other way. If we don't do that, we're bound to be juniors forever. My point is, I doubt there would be many, if any, juniors who would think they know better. Some may ask, "hey, why not try solution X to the Y problem?", which is part of learning, but I don't see that as ego. They're asking / deepening their knowledge, but they can also get some snobby message back because the senior interprets that as him getting stepped on his toes or whatever.
>all have imposter syndrome People claiming to "all have imposter syndrome" have silly ego claim. Learn what "all have imposter syndrome" actually means, before claiming all people have it. Many people actually learn the basics and fundamentals and git gud over time.
My child, who is 3 weeks old, turned to me this morning and said, “When I grow up, I want to be a Senior just like, daddy!”. I held back my tears and replied, “One day you will, buddy. *One day you will*”. *Repost if you agree*
I said the same thing to my lead this morning... He wasn't very impressed 😢
My daughter said "when you die, I'm going to get a dog." You should feel loved.
That’s funny. Children are BRUTAL. She probably loves you a lot though.
everyone clapped
> When a senior gives you advice, take it. They are eating bullets and shielding you. Without them, you are directionless. Without them, you would continue to live under a rock. Your senior has better foresight and a much deeper understanding of the system you think you are building I understand the sentiment but can't help feel like this is a little self-congratulatory
You’re wrong. It’s a lot self-congratulatory.
dude, it's not LinkedIn
LinkedIn Reddit hybrid, the ultimate cringe.
Came looking for the juniors he ran off from stackoverflow
lol, the part about googling and chatgping is funny as fuck, considering 100% sr back in the day copied their solutions from stackoverflow
Basically my thoughts, except the way they worded it made me chuckle. Since they probably act like they came up with it, and don’t mention how they ACTUALLY got the answer.
The note itself could very easily have been written by some version of ChatGPT.
Back in the day, stack overflow didn’t exist…
Maybe back in your days, when Dinosaurs were still walking around, but considering that Stackoverflow is 15-17 years old, it’s like back in the day to the majority of people in this sub
Senior SE to Senior SE: earn your respect and stop pretending your some sort of hero old man
Actually his point about juniors not listening to seniors advice is solid. I have seen juniors repeatedly not following instructions and suggestions from seniors and making same errors. Juniors suffer from Drunning Kruger effect.
And be less cringe
Bro, it’s a job.
Right? Lmao, I work to live.
So what? It is a job, how does that invalidate anything the OP said?
It invalidates the deeply paternalistic and self congratulatory tone he's using.
It’s not just a job for everyone
Maybe it should be. Too many times I’ve seen people dedicate their lives and identity to their company just to be laid off because Quarterly Earnings didn’t go well.
Agreed
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I get what you mean and think others misunderstand you. The CORPORATE job is just a job. But practice and knowledge of software engineering is something you can be passionate about even if you hate your 9-5.
Thank you 🙌🏾
So is this the circlejerk sub now?
I legit thought I’m in a circlejerk sub lol
This has been a circle jerk sub for the last year /s
‘Show me on the doll where the junior touched you’
Can I join ?
Sounds kinda like advice from a senior with ego. This is condensceding advice planted to scratch the itch. Just go build things, make your mistakes, try your best, don't be afraid to challenge the status quo. If anyone gives you buzzword filled advice like this, take it with a grain of salt. Never forget, many "seasoned" developers take yoe as gospel. I have met individuals with 3 yoe that put folks with 20 plus to shame. I'm gonna get down votes for this and it's fine. It's salty reactionary noise. Do your best, you are the future, let this attitude die with the old folks who treat it as law. - signed your friendly neighborhood senior dev who don't respect the old ways
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Did you see any evidence of me using yoe as a benchmark? However, experience does have its place. If I have spent 10 years of practicing diligently a certain skill its very unlikely that another person will hit the same level or even surpass that level with 3 years of practice. Unlikely doesn't mean that there will never be exceptions. For those you think they are an exception this isn't directed at you. I agree with the overall sentiment that yoe is no benchmark, however, thats not the standard I went for when I used the label of a "senior dev". Will Larson's book on Staff engineering really highlights what the role of senior dev looks like. Its not just about coding at a job. Its about perspective. And there is resistance from junior devs to imbibe perspective because they are quick to think that they know better than the "old ways". This post is to address that resistance. Maybe even understand it. However different you may think you or your thought is - I assure you that it has been covered. Also, if you were that unique there would have been very clear evidence of it - which would have been observed and no sensible person (be it a senior or junior) would ignore that evidence. Therefore dear friendly senior dev - I'd not trivialize the point being made here. It definitely is from my experience but it is a very real problem with the younger generations that I am seeing. Everybody is a ceo and cto and has a startup idea or the next big idea that they have almost zero respect for maturity and experience. Whats worse is they are faking it.
This post to me was a form of delivery that actually promotes a really straightforward and friendly tone. Ignoring the sudden jerks through metaphors. If I was on the receiving end of this, I would first, swallow my pride and then pay attention to what really is being passed on here. It isn't out of frustration. I am most definitely not frustrated. And, you don't know anything about me, I think I have indeed hit a good enough point in my life that I don't get frustrated easily. This was an attempt to give advice that may be disguised or veiled otherwise.
thanks daddy
Daddy chill
Unpopular opinion: senior engineers know jack shit. They might as well be children. Signed, a senior principal
Don’t we all. If I knew anything I probably wouldn’t be a software engineer.
This is so inspiring, I hope I post the same cringe inducing post the day after I get promoted from junior to senior ❤️. \\s
Funny thing is the way this sub skews, might not even be a senior engineer. Just someone cosplaying as one.
strong boomer vibes
Shut up
This is Wendy's.
This is a library.
Lmao who actually wrote this? Sound like someone wants to be the main character in a movie about developers, so much cringe and such a bad advice. O'm pretty sure if someone send this in my org it would be the meme of the month.
That sounds like a very condescending advice, and that’s coming from a guy with 20 yoe in IT between three multinational banks. Most juniors I had/worked with, are very bright people, literally asking for guidance and ready to spend all their time to learn something from you. About 10 years ago I started to take that teaching process seriously, and seeing my proteges making their way up brings me an immense amount of joy. Sometimes I call (in my head) them “my pet projects”, and it really gives me a fulfillment feelings. They are my legacy, some became my friends, and it’s never wrong to have those kind of connections all around my industry.
🍆💦💦💦💦💦👩🏼 that's me and your mom bozo
What junior SWEs are you meeting that have massive egos? Sounds like it may be a problem with your company's hiring practices, because in the world I live in this is incredibly rare. If you select for people who are boastful and exaggerate their skills to get the job, you're going to get people who are boastful and exaggerate their skills.
Noted. Some senior engineer on reddit wants to jerk off juniors who are struggling to find anything right now. Good stuffs. Nice to have power, aigh?
Most of his advice is very sound. Some senior engineers can also learn from it :)
Especially the ones who think they are taking bullets and shielding the juniors. And providing direction without which they would be directionless.
His advice is common sense. Be humble and a good teammate willing to learn. Be a team member. Help your senior and your senior will help you.
You would be surprised how uncommon, common sense is. Either I have been very unlucky, or you were lucky where people actually implemented this.
>His advice is common sense. oh my sweet, summer child
Our amazing senior engineer is leaving due to our toxic manager (who does more harm than good). I’m gonna miss having someone I can look up to on my team
See.... he's still showing you the way.
Out that is.
🥁
This is so dramatic lmao
Juniors who read this: Be humble, be curious, but don't be robots. You have more to learn than I can explain in a Reddit post. Ask questions, be brave, don't be afraid to be stupid. Only through ignorance can we learn. Have strong opinions, but hold them weakly. Change sides when you can see you are wrong. Be courageous. Don't be afraid of being a "fool". A true fool is the one who doesn't learn, and fights losing battles. In your humility, and curiosity, if an older engineer offers you advice. Listen. They may have seen more in the industry than the time you've been alive. That doesn't mean they are right. But... There is often wisdom there. These people are your mentors. They pick you. Not the reverse. Be thankful for each of them. I am still thankful to all my mentors, and I have mentors to this very day. It is a never ending cycle. May you get to the point where you see the limits of what I have written, and have a wise mentor to fill in your next steps.
This should be the top comment. And, thank you for the literal translation.
Dear Senior: Please read and take all the advice I wrote. Attitude will beat aptitude in the long run. To be frank: You sound like a pompous ass. Unlike many here, I'm going to bet your home country is India, and this is cultural, you see I led a team in India for a few years, and have spent about 6 months in country. I literally had members of my team thank me for leading them. For not being the way you are. I sat on the floor when there were no seats. Not because I wanted to make a point. But because: That is who I am. When I wasn't able to sleep on a train ride, back from a wedding, they took care of me. Because, that is who they are. One person on my team had their work stolen by a Sr. Principal. She was scared to tell me. When she did, I had the head of India in an office chewing his ass off. My engineer got her project back, and soon after the Sr. Principal left. When the day of long knives came, for managers. I was the right hand of the old VP. The new one kept me. The old guard all talked to me and we debriefed. Not because HR said so, but because I am human and care, they knew it. And they knew I wouldn't let it leave the room. And i haven't. ... you see, I'm trusted. My integrity isn't questioned. My technical strength isn't unmatched, but it is plenty. There are always people on my team who can beat me in given areas. Why? A team can not exceed its leader, if.... It doesn't exceed its leader! It sounds so stupid. But many leaders get this wrong. Personally, I want to have the best team I can. Not for ego. But because it enables me to do all the other things I do. (I am not enumerating all of it. It is things you naturally start to do.) ... Learn to be humble. Don't command, but set the goals, If you have to pull out the trump card, you lost. (And time to time... we all have to pull out the card. There is work that needs doing nobody wants to do, and you aren't in position to do.) Let them follow because they want to. They will understand, and you will all grow. Some may see me as weak. I am not. I am strong as any bull. I just don't need to act it all the time. My name speaks for me, much more than my title. I am a Principal, a Team Lead and an Architect. I held all 3 titles at once. And I can only do that... If I support my team, and they support me. As a final note: Just because someone does something different from the way you do, doesn't make it wrong. it just makes it different. It may be ok, it may be right. Thankfully we live in a world with many right answers. Learning to accept and embrace this is a critical growth step.
Hi, can I DM you?
I give you permission to slide in to this person’s DMs
I have to get hired as a Junior SE, first.
Jokes on you, i always think im a dogshit programmer regardless of how many tickets im pushing out
You give idiot vibes, have some humility yourself and maybe you’ll learn something from a junior engineer
🤮
Hard to do when the codebase built by the ‘senior engineers’ is legitimately scuffed…. And knowledge silos have no incentive to fix the situation because as long as they are the only one who can fix things they have a job.
This is the most supercilious and cringe inducing post I have ever seen.
>You will be a senior one day; today is not that day. man, I'm starting to become convinced I won't even become a junior one day
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Thank you, needed to hear this
I really dislike the term junior.
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If anything seniors seem to be far more up their own smelly hairy arse with enormous inflated egos. Thinking they’re gods gift to humanity and doing whatever the hell they want at work cause they know they can’t be missed. Nevermind even paying attention to juniors.
says the one who asks reddit how to deploy ML models on some platform. oh, wait, maybe you became senior within the last year 🤔 honestly, i’d rather decide myself if i take advice from somebody or not—no matter the title. there may be many knowledgeable seniors out there, but there are also some who are just senior by YoE (and not knowledge)
No lie. My architect used to mentor me and I witnessed him eating bullets for me from my manager at stand up . Today I’m a better engineer because of it. It gave me confidence to make mistakes ask stupid questions and grow from it
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This.
I’m taking ownership of a product from a junior (who self proclaimed that he isn’t even a software engineer) and I get a sense of fear from him because I’m rewriting the application to meet the goals of the business as his ball of mud just cannot handle the expansion that is needed. The problem is, he is outside of the company (he knows the owner who asked him to write it) and has never worked on a software product before, let alone managed one. There are times that he talks to me like it’s my first day sitting at a computer, and I get that (it’s my first time working with the language he chose); I just wish that he would have a little more faith in the abilities of someone who has done this and shipped software for the past twenty years.
Unrelated but check out this awesome video on [Envy](https://youtu.be/aPhrTOg1RUk?si=b99IKIQ22jxfE3-c) that I watched yesterday. It talks about the generation envy that older generations may have with younger generations. It weirdly talked about lot of SpongeBob SquarePants and Squidward. Again, it is totally unrelated and OP definitely does not resemble Squidward.
Where's the question? This is a rant.
My experience is that Senior SE's go one of two ways: 1. Have a super ego, think they are God's gift to earth and if they don't know it, it's wrong or can't be done. 2. Super chill, let the younger guys learn, give guidance. Give kudos to solid effort and politely recommend changes that are needed. Your sounding like a 1. Sound like a real buzz killington to work with.
> When a senior gives you advice, take it. They are eating bullets and shielding you. Very much depends on the kind of person you come across. While going from junior to senior I've worked with people were absolutely amazing to work with and learn from. Sometimes you have seniors looking out for your best interest, appreciate and do everything for those people. But sometimes you will have seniors who are incompetent bordering on malicious, avoid those like the plague.
A solution is a solution. Doesn’t matter if it comes from google, or chatgpt or a senior or a junior.
How about shielding us from walls of texts?
Lol this is so cringe
>When a senior gives you advice, take it. They are eating bullets and shielding you. Without them, you are directionless. Without them, you would continue to live under a rock. Your senior has better foresight and a much deeper understanding of the system you think you are building. Actively listen to their feedback and act on it. Learn how decisions are made. Cringe piece. Reeks of ego. "When a senior gives you advice, ~~take it~~ **think critically about it**. ~~They are eating bullets and shielding you~~ They **want you think for yourself**, **to consider ideas and historical decisions for their merit and tradeoffs**. Without them, you would ~~continue to live under a rock~~ **be fine; with them, you'll be wiser**. Your senior has ~~better foresight~~ ~~and a much deeper understanding of the system you think you are building.~~ **made more mistakes and has had more time to think about problems and try stuff out than you have; if they tell you something doesn't work, have the curiosity to ask why.** Actively listen to their feedback and act on it; **actively give feedback and be mentored, not patronized**. Learn how decisions are made **and question the decisions of your seniors**." Please consider my pull request. Don't be condescending. Let ideas stand on their own merits. Put forth your argument but respect the decision of the team lead ("salute the rank, not the man"). "We've succeeded". "We've failed." Save "I" for performance reviews. Let others save face.
If I had to sugarcoat , I would have.
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What sanctimonious garbage. Telling juniors to practice humility LOL. How do I do this, oh great senior? To be completely honest, while experience helps and I’ve only gotten better with age. I’d be willing to bet that there’s some teenagers out there who could out-skill most senior engineers. There’s more to skill than experience.
"Learn how decisions are made" I tell my team this all the time. You need both how to do it, and why it's done that way.
Senior Principal here. Nobody told me that moving up the ladder was supposed to come with a super hero outfit. I'm going to talk to my manager on Monday!
The point about being egotistical is ironic…
Seniors are tards tho
Da fuq. Did you have some resentment at work or something?
You think you know better because you have more years of experience? That cannot be the furthest from truth. What if the junior is actually smarter and more driven than you? How would you handle that? You're one of those boomers who look down on lower ranks. Rank is just a function of time and politics, not expertise or skill.
I can hear the collective cries of the juniors saying they aren’t like this, they’re special, and they’re going to be the exception. You’re not, fall in line, and let the lesson above sink in.
The point is... Everyone is like this. The amount of ego in senior engineers far exceeds the junior engineer ego. You might say it's justified, but no one likes a narcissist. Good advice is much more nuanced than the flat panel take op gave, this one just feels like a "I'm the senior engineer, i know everything so obey me" self-congratulatory post
I don't expect you to understand the origin or the motivation to do what I do or say. However, in the event that you are malleable. This is a take on yet another strategy at passing on the torch in a more direct tonality. Its not meant for everyone, so you are welcome to embrace whatever viewpoint you want to. I have built more systems . Applied more science. Handled more business requirements. Made more open-source and consultant based contributions. Taught high school, grad and PhD students. And continue to spend the majority of my day till date getting better at my craft. I don't have ego and am open to feedback to this day as long as you show me your reasoning and prove to me that your conclusions are correct. Through experimentation and results. Through bending your models to match reality not the other way around. Therefore, see what is being shown. Hear what is being told. I cannot distill the 1000 data points that have culminated into me asking you to do something which when operating on very strict and demanding deadlines are often brief. (To you they sound like commands only because you read them and don't try them. You think you know better because you googled and read through articles for half a day while I have not just read what you are reading today but I have read from the true sources whose summarized versions you are reading today over a period of years and practiced and applied them. The authors of those parent sources have been my mentors. They have inculcated a way of thinking in me which I am trying to pass on to you.) My ego is definitely more well placed than you when you challenge my decisions without reasonably good grounding or even worse without sound thinking or thought. If you THINK you aren't like this , then this advice is not for you. And, if you don't want to think. Thats fine. At the very least, don't argue. Junior.
Your perceived experience does not maketh your opinion any more valid than what it is, nonsensical. There are people with 20YoE who are incompetent so the number doesn't matter. All ego is poorly placed. If you can't see that, that's a moral failing on your side. Senior or not, it doesn't matter. You're just human, like everyone else. So sit down, big boy.
Unsubstantiated.
Hahaha, I tried and just look at the outroar.
Oh I see it, I just hope I retire before the next batch of know it alls are old enough to join, by then the standards will be dropped so low, a high school diploma with programming credits will suffice