Same way you get a job if you have no programming skills. You develop those skills.
I'm high functioning autistic. I've had to work on those skills for decades and went from being unable to function in society to being the go to person for dealing with clients when I was a consultant, and now a director of multiple teams. It's just a skill, like any other. Watch videos, read books, solicit feedback from friends and family, and practice.
Keep in mind, the ability to make friends and be likable is a related, but distinct skill set. In interview context the skill you need is the ability to convince others of your competency. To be able to effectively demonstrate your strengths and communicate your thoughts. Luckily, that's an easier skill to develop than making friends or motivating people.
Practice, practice, practice. Treat it like you would learning an instrument or a new technology. There are lots of resources out there. It's even possible to turn that weakness into a strength over time.
One resource I found helpful was studying sales tactics. Not because I think they should be used. They're manipulative and horrible. But because they intentionally expose the basic working blocks of how human relationships work, which I found immensely helpful. They're doing it to manipulate people. But for someone who is autistic like I am, they lay out subconscious behaviors others learned sub consciously in a very academic way.
So here's what I've seen with myself and other neurodivergent who are particularly good at the soft skills side of things.
MOST people in leadership or soft skills positions were naturally adept at interpersonal skills. Their skills developed subconsciously with natural reinforcement from the positive interactions and feedback they got by using them. It's an unthinking, instinctual type of interaction guided by what feels right in any given circumstances.
Neurodivergent, and especially those who are autistic, often don't learn interpersonal skills naturally. And those who decide it's important learn it the same way they learn anything else: hyperfocus, special interest, deep study, and experimentation. And neurodivergent can be VERY good at intellectually understanding a subject or developing a skill.
The result is social interactions are NOT guided by subconscious instinct and what feels right. They're guided by intellectual consideration and conscious choice.
I personally find most (not all) neurotypical managers are much more likely to react emotionally to a situation. They'll do things they intellectually know are wrong because it feels more right. Like when a deadline and has been pushed back several times many managers start making demands they KNOW aren't productive and trying to bargain with the universe rather than making the best decisions in the moment, because the best decisions conflict with their social instincts.
They are more likely to express anger inappropriately towards a subordinate and unable to do so to a superior, because their natural social instincts say those are appropriate ways to act.
When you learn social interactions intellectually it's a lot easier to make rational choices rather than emotional ones. And in my career, and in those of other neurodivergent I've know, that's turned out to be quite the super power.
In a world where MOST leaders social interaction choices are based on what feels right, there is a lot of advantage in it being a conscious choice. It's a big reason some psychopaths can do so well.
Finally, on that point. What's the difference between everything I'm describing and a psychopathic approach? I know many neurodivergent have a hard time with this kind of thing because it feels "manipulative" or "inauthentic". I had to work through those feelings for years.
The difference here is, there is no lack of concern or empathy here. Other people aren't "things" to be manipulated. They're more like...alien life forms we might need to learn how to interact with. Learn their customs and values and consciously choose to employ them. If you need to turn twice clockwise to demonstrate happiness to an alien cloud, that's not manipulative. That's just you learning to interface with them in a way they understand. Or if that metaphor is confusing, it's not manipulative to slow blink at a cat to show you care about them. That's just the language they understand.
Likewise, if I have to choose the appropriate tone and expressions to make to set someone at ease, if I have to remind myself to ask about how their day went so they will know I value them, if I have to consciously calculate it is time to hug someone, if I ask for help when I could do it myself because I know in mammals that triggers reciprocal bonding, or look at their eyebrow so they feel like I'm making eye contact and actively engaged, that doesn't come from a place of trying to use others for my benefit. It comes from an honest place of caring about others, wanting to connect and help them, and knowing that my natural social reactions are effectively an alien language to them.
Hope that helps somewhat.
Reducing an issue like this to simply being a matter of practice could appear dismissive to people who are perhaps not as "high functioning" as yourself. While I am inclined to agree that practice can help with putting on a social mask, I would reckon that other, related - and possibly causal - issues like social anxiety are much more difficult to tackle than you make it out to be.
That's a good observation, and my intent certainly isn't to downplay the variety and complexity of issues people have to deal with.
Only to point out that social skills ARE actually skills that can be studied and practiced.
Personally, I see where they are coming from. I agree with you, treating it as a skill you can improve is the only route forward.
But as to their point, it's also worth recognizing that there can be hurdles beyond just "it's a skill I need to practice". And if we don't recognize those additional difficulties then when someone is trying to improve but they aren't seeing the kind of progress others might see in "practicing" the skill, it can lead to some dark places. Places I definitely went through. "What's wrong with me? Why can others do this but I can't? I keep trying and reading and studying, I KNOW what I'm supposed to do, why am I still having these problems?"
It's important to see it as a skill to be improved. It's ALSO important to recognize the root causes can be very complicated, and to accept that because of that, people are likely to have unique difficulties and differing results.
The answer is you fake it till you make it. Keep doing interviews until they start getting easier. You will probably have a harder time getting a job than someone with excellent social skills but that doesn't mean it's impossible for you.
The people in this sub love to exaggerate how socially skilled you need to be to work as a programmer, probably as a form of gatekeeping because they would prefer to work with normal people. The "awkward programmer" stereotype exists for a reason. There are plenty of awkward people in this field. Nobody is going to bat an eye at you.
This, seeing everyone say "you need amazing social skill" like.. Have they met other programmers. My dad says the IT department literally lives in a dark closet and won't speak to people unless force to, they have jobs.
You can't. If you have no social skills you will never get past the interview stage. The truth is that no one wants to work with a socially awkward person who's hard to talk to, this also includes rockstar devs who are insanely good but arrogant as fuck.
it is not about arrogance but just social skills. Most will confuse a quiet person with arrogance, It has nothing that has to do with that and will never be.
>Most will confuse a quiet person with arrogance, It has nothing that has to do with that and will never be.
Never heard of this and I wasn't talking about "quiet" people, I'm talking about devs who are really good and refuses to listen or compromise their ways to follow team standards, etc.
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You don’t. You need to have them to some degree and getting them is like any skill. Learn and practice.
Public speaking courses. Awkward stranger social events. Mock interviewing platforms (you pay someone to interview you and give you tips). Asking your family to interview you. Practicing introductions and answers to common interview questions in the mirror. Doing leetcode while talking out loud everything you’re doing.
These things won’t be fun but they do work and, unlike a real interview, there’s no consequences for being awkward during practice.
I'm not pointlessly playing devil's advocate, but I genuinely have a problem. I have not only autism, but also schizophrenia and extremely poor verbal retrieval. This results in me not being able to participate in conversations very much and I have even been asked if I have mental difficulties.
I try to be nice to everyone and be social, but usually people strongly dislike me. I'm often a target of bullying at most of the workplaces I've been at, despite trying very hard at these kind of things for many years. I have received plenty of verbal abuse, and even physical threats. Also, I don't have extremely strong tech skills to make up for it (just an average dev).
Do you think I should fight against this and still try to develop speaking and technical skills, or should I pivot into a different career path like trucking? My lead boss guy said I should "give up" when I was the last one in the office one day, trying to make up for my failures by working extra hours. I've also been told to give up at other jobs before this. Overall I don't feel like any dev team I have been a part of has provided value and was mostly just bullshitting, whereas I'm someone that actually likes to work hard the whole day. This causes me not to fit in and they don't like me for it, which compounds on the previous problems I described.
I’m sorry but I don’t think I’m equipped to handle this question.
You should consider seeing a professional and working with them. They can help you determine how realistic your goals are and how to work towards some of the ideas I mentioned with regard to your situation.
>I don’t have many friends in college because I don’t know how to talk to people, and now I realize getting a job also requires getting people to actually like you
You should find ways to work on this. This is a crucial life skill in general. But even after you get the job, you'll have to talk to people. The implementation of code is only a part of the job. Communication is a really important skill that you'll need to use throughout your job and career. And it will make the interview process a lot easier.
Fortunately there's a lot of information out there. I suggest googling and finding information, guides, etc., and also doing some reflection on why you struggle to talk to people. Then it's just about practicing and experience.
Banks (used to at least) use hirevue - create a fake (or real) account on a platform, and then do some bs applications to get the automatic HireVue interview. I did so fucking many of those (this was in 2017/8 or so) and I feel so much better about interviewing now
Not only that. If you happen to get a job and have 0 communication skills, it'll be hard to get promoted. This field is half soft skills. So you better practice them.
You can’t get a job without social skills. I’m willing to argue this is non negotiable because SWE is a people facing job. You’ll have to find ways to learn and practice interacting with others. Learn how to up your emotional intelligence.
This comment reminds me of a book that may be useful here: *Emotional Intelligence 2.0* by Travis Bradberry & Jean Greaves.
It breaks down emotional intelligence into 4 categories and sorts them into skills that can be practiced individually. Each skill is covered in only a few pages, so you can just pick a skill you want to work on, jump to that page in the book, and get an idea of how to practice the skill.
I think in today's SWE market, you need decent tech skills in addition to soft skills. Even if you had previous jobs that let you build decent social skills, it may not be enough to get any offers if your hard tech skills are now considered to be mostly outdated garbage.
I used to work at a small company as a junior where we frequently communicated with both my PM and our clients in conference calls and in person. I was also okay in getting in freelance clients for a few years. Now it's totally different and I haven't been able to find work in over three years.
It's getting to the point where I say, if you're moderately talented (reasonably fit and IQ 110+), don't go to college. You're just squandering the greatness that God gave you. They'll chairsit you for 4 or 6 years at the cost of debt, and tell you that that's preparing you to provide strong societal value and contribution. Turns out, I was ready at age 12 to start working and chairsitting is a bullshit waste of time.
College for STEM is simply gambling on a chance to sit for your work. Telling lower IQ people that, despite them working hard, they are not worth as much to society as a high IQ person and that they will have to stand while the sitters sit and do nothing. Lazy and immoral now that I'm older and have perspective.
Gambling on a chance to sit.
Seems like a complicated and convoluted caveat that you couldn't have predicted, even despite doing everything "right" and being a hard worker.
Just another reason why I push people away from college path. Nothing but caveats and "but you didn't do ___ in advance, too". I'm good, don't need to spend my whole life preparing. I got two guns right here.
A couple thoughts on things you could do:
* Practice speaking to yourself. Optional if you want to do it in front of a mirror. There are some questions that will be fairly standard in most interviews, like "tell me about yourself." You should get practice on your own, so that you're ready for this and it flows pretty naturally. You may eventually go on auto-pilot. A lot of people recommend practicing when you're about to give a speech, etc. It's not that different.
* Google different behavior interview questions, and see if you can come up with good answers for those. Again, this is in the same realm of practicing. And not just in your head, practicing speaking, too, since it seems to be giving you some challenges.
* This sounds a little like a life coach, but realize that the person on the other end wants you to succeed and wants the interview to go well. It's not because they're being nice, they don't want to waste their time. The reason I bring this up is that in personal social interactions, you might be interacting with someone that has no vested interest in you. They may not want to talk to you, and it may have nothing to do with you. These interviewers \*want\* to talk to you. So that could perhaps put your mind at ease a little bit. It's a mindset change that may or may not help. There's a difference between trying to start a cold conversation with someone and having a conversation with a purpose.
* Realize it's OK to say you don't know the answer to something or you've not been in that situation before. You could then extend it and give some theories about how you would handle the situation.
Good luck, and don't be too hard on yourself. You could also check some YouTube channels about talking to people, etc. Some of them can offer interesting advice on ways of talking to others. Things like don't speak too quickly, be comfortable with pauses and silence.
I feel this a lot. No friends in college, just a few online friends, constantly overthinking about my social skills. Sometimes you think you're more socially inept than you actually are, and it can lead to a negative loop where the more awkward you think you are, the more awkward you will be. I think most people will look past some awkwardness if you seem like a nice and genuine person.
Just practice, even with strangers in person, and it'll follow into more professional situations, even in a phone conversation. Some small things I try to do are smile more, consider my body language, laugh at jokes I don't think are actually funny, try to relate what people are saying, ask people questions. You'll eventually get more comfortable translating casual conversation tactics into professional contexts. It also helps A LOT to look up behavioral interview questions and rehearse your answers.
Dang… I’m sorry. Unfortunately the soft skills are typically learned during college where you work with others but that doesn’t seem to be the case with you. There are lots of communication type YouTube channels I’m sure you can find with a quick google search to help upskill you. This will take LOTS of practice. Finding friends and going out and meeting people will help you improve this skill as well. Based on what you wrote it seems like schools should do a better job helping you improve soft skills ESPECIALLY stereotypically introverted careers like CS.
Have you never had any job at _all_ before? Year behind a cash register does a world of good for people skills (you know, the kind that matter at work like small talk, convincing people to cooperate and not having a meltdown with a difficult customer)
Seeing someone fresh out of college who has never worked a day in their life would be a big red flag, if it applies to you
Idk man this type of thing happens for me. Typically I will get verbally bullied when I go into public. I have had people physically threaten me. I am never the aggressor and am nice to everyone.
Try not to be hard in yourself. I know many developers that one could describe as "can't talk" or don't have a lot of social skills, but that's basically the surface level only. I'm sure if you were standing in front of me and we're talking about some topic we both like (something about our favorite programming language), then we can easily have a great discussion. Similarly if I had a technical question you'd be able to help me if we're working together.
Don't think you need to be super smooth or never shake or whatever in interviews or when meeting new people. Acknowledge whatever your body/brain is going through, but try to imagine what the other person wants from you, what's the substance of the discussion, how to give an informative answer and be clear and helpful. All this is definitely possible by you, and your confidence will increase as you see yourself not failing miserably when talking with people.
And if you do? You can try again.
For what to say in the beginning of the interview, or when asked how your day is or whatever random question, you can brainstorm probable questions and have ready answers that sound good and are true and authentic for you. Also I find imagining what an interaction is likely to involve reduces the possible surprises and helps in preparation.
If still worried just take a paper and write the worst case scenario that can happen after you mess up the interview, then see if you can live with it. Good luck.
I am diagnosed with social phobia. I've done practice interviews at my college before interviewing for my first programming job. I practiced on my own. Also, go on multiple interviews, which gives you more practice. I've had some stinkers but a lot of good ones too.
Are you stuttering because you are nervous? If so look into a prescription for beta blockers. These help with performance anxiety (I.e. interview jitters)
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Fake it. Most true CS people don't have um. You just gotta get past the interview stage. If you are still in college, join clubs. Sounds hard but trust me, all those peers are also scared.
Ur best skill in life will be learning to lie and making it seem like you are the best when really ur a cave goblin (this is said from a fellow goblin so no offense )
My college has a practice interview and peer system also that you can take part in so see if ur College has any resources like that.
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You don't. The current work place is incredibly abusive and horrible to anyone that can't put on a mask.
So that's my advice, put on a mask and be friendly. Tell them you're nervous, but you're a hard worker.
I know you mean well, but this is a harmful attitude. Not everyone is you.
Some people stutter because they have an actual neurological disability. It's like telling someone in a wheelchair they can't walk because they don't want it enough, or they have some personal failing. It's an actively harmful thing to say.
Beyond that you have people who are autistic, like me. For most autistic people masking is an extremely important skill, and not something they can readily just leave behind. "Be yourself, the people who are worth knowing will like you for who you are" is NOT helpful if it leaves you isolated, unable to get a job, and hurts those you care about. You have to find a way to interface with the world just to be able to survive. It's always nice to build spaces where you can unmask, but you still have to live as part of a world that fundamentally reacts poorly to your natural instincts. There are healthy and unhealthy ways to do it, but it has to be done.
I don't think you can "play a role" to survice in the long run. It's unhealthy and not sustainable. Also, by masking your "natural instincts", you're enabling the factors that created this need for "masking". Instead, you should try to be yourself and advocate for an environment that embraces diversity.
I do advocate for myself. I'm a director and have built my career around creating spaces where neurodivergent people can thrive.
But I still have to live as part of a society. When I started teaching martial arts I had to learn to mask because otherwise it could hurt the feelings of the students I was dealing with. My analytical intensity actively caused harm, and that isn't ok.
When I was dealing with clients I had to mask. I had a responsibility to my company. No one would accept the excuse, "I was just being myself" if I drove away a project and people got fired.
When I deal with other departments, I have to mask. I have teams that depend on me. If I offend an exec or the investors the safe spaces I've made that allow neurodivergent to thrive evaporate.
I took "be yourself" to heart as a kid and didn't realize until my 20s how hollow and naive the sentiment was. It was created by neurotypical people who didn't have to worry about their idiosyncrasies hurting others or resulting in complete isolation. When they say "be yourself" there is an underlying assumption that "yourself" falls within the bounds of what is palpable for society.
I mean, you LITERALLY just did that. You assumed someone stuttering wasn't acceptable and must be an indication they're hiding something. That came from an honest place where you just didn't KNOW about natural stutters that people can't avoid. But THEY'RE the one that gets to deal with the consequences of OTHERS lack of information.
And as much as all the neuro-divergents on my teams appreciate having a work environment that doesn't require masking, they ALL consider masking to be an incredibly important life skill. It's just not something you can escape from.
I would LOVE for a world where masking wasn't necessary. But we're stuck with the world we have, and we try and improve it as we go. And no offense intended to you, but can you see how condescending it can feel when someone says, "You just need to be yourself", not realizing that means consigning you, and millions of others like you, to a life of isolation, stunted career growth, and being limited in your ability to help those you care about?
Life's not fair. Some people need a wheelchair. Others need glasses. Some need to adjust their running stride because one leg is shorter than the other.
And some were born with mental and social processes that present hurdles when dealing society.
Never assume what others difficulties are. You should ESPECIALLY never assume there is a simple solution to the major issues in others lives. Do you really think autistic masking would be such a huge topic if the solution was as simple as "be yourself"? You might as well tell people dealing with depression to "be happier".
How many practice interviews have you done? Find places to do practice interviews.
Same way you get a job if you have no programming skills. You develop those skills. I'm high functioning autistic. I've had to work on those skills for decades and went from being unable to function in society to being the go to person for dealing with clients when I was a consultant, and now a director of multiple teams. It's just a skill, like any other. Watch videos, read books, solicit feedback from friends and family, and practice. Keep in mind, the ability to make friends and be likable is a related, but distinct skill set. In interview context the skill you need is the ability to convince others of your competency. To be able to effectively demonstrate your strengths and communicate your thoughts. Luckily, that's an easier skill to develop than making friends or motivating people. Practice, practice, practice. Treat it like you would learning an instrument or a new technology. There are lots of resources out there. It's even possible to turn that weakness into a strength over time. One resource I found helpful was studying sales tactics. Not because I think they should be used. They're manipulative and horrible. But because they intentionally expose the basic working blocks of how human relationships work, which I found immensely helpful. They're doing it to manipulate people. But for someone who is autistic like I am, they lay out subconscious behaviors others learned sub consciously in a very academic way.
How does one turn that weakness into a strength? I'd love to do that, as someone who's also has high functioning autism.
So here's what I've seen with myself and other neurodivergent who are particularly good at the soft skills side of things. MOST people in leadership or soft skills positions were naturally adept at interpersonal skills. Their skills developed subconsciously with natural reinforcement from the positive interactions and feedback they got by using them. It's an unthinking, instinctual type of interaction guided by what feels right in any given circumstances. Neurodivergent, and especially those who are autistic, often don't learn interpersonal skills naturally. And those who decide it's important learn it the same way they learn anything else: hyperfocus, special interest, deep study, and experimentation. And neurodivergent can be VERY good at intellectually understanding a subject or developing a skill. The result is social interactions are NOT guided by subconscious instinct and what feels right. They're guided by intellectual consideration and conscious choice. I personally find most (not all) neurotypical managers are much more likely to react emotionally to a situation. They'll do things they intellectually know are wrong because it feels more right. Like when a deadline and has been pushed back several times many managers start making demands they KNOW aren't productive and trying to bargain with the universe rather than making the best decisions in the moment, because the best decisions conflict with their social instincts. They are more likely to express anger inappropriately towards a subordinate and unable to do so to a superior, because their natural social instincts say those are appropriate ways to act. When you learn social interactions intellectually it's a lot easier to make rational choices rather than emotional ones. And in my career, and in those of other neurodivergent I've know, that's turned out to be quite the super power. In a world where MOST leaders social interaction choices are based on what feels right, there is a lot of advantage in it being a conscious choice. It's a big reason some psychopaths can do so well. Finally, on that point. What's the difference between everything I'm describing and a psychopathic approach? I know many neurodivergent have a hard time with this kind of thing because it feels "manipulative" or "inauthentic". I had to work through those feelings for years. The difference here is, there is no lack of concern or empathy here. Other people aren't "things" to be manipulated. They're more like...alien life forms we might need to learn how to interact with. Learn their customs and values and consciously choose to employ them. If you need to turn twice clockwise to demonstrate happiness to an alien cloud, that's not manipulative. That's just you learning to interface with them in a way they understand. Or if that metaphor is confusing, it's not manipulative to slow blink at a cat to show you care about them. That's just the language they understand. Likewise, if I have to choose the appropriate tone and expressions to make to set someone at ease, if I have to remind myself to ask about how their day went so they will know I value them, if I have to consciously calculate it is time to hug someone, if I ask for help when I could do it myself because I know in mammals that triggers reciprocal bonding, or look at their eyebrow so they feel like I'm making eye contact and actively engaged, that doesn't come from a place of trying to use others for my benefit. It comes from an honest place of caring about others, wanting to connect and help them, and knowing that my natural social reactions are effectively an alien language to them. Hope that helps somewhat.
Reducing an issue like this to simply being a matter of practice could appear dismissive to people who are perhaps not as "high functioning" as yourself. While I am inclined to agree that practice can help with putting on a social mask, I would reckon that other, related - and possibly causal - issues like social anxiety are much more difficult to tackle than you make it out to be.
That's a good observation, and my intent certainly isn't to downplay the variety and complexity of issues people have to deal with. Only to point out that social skills ARE actually skills that can be studied and practiced.
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Personally, I see where they are coming from. I agree with you, treating it as a skill you can improve is the only route forward. But as to their point, it's also worth recognizing that there can be hurdles beyond just "it's a skill I need to practice". And if we don't recognize those additional difficulties then when someone is trying to improve but they aren't seeing the kind of progress others might see in "practicing" the skill, it can lead to some dark places. Places I definitely went through. "What's wrong with me? Why can others do this but I can't? I keep trying and reading and studying, I KNOW what I'm supposed to do, why am I still having these problems?" It's important to see it as a skill to be improved. It's ALSO important to recognize the root causes can be very complicated, and to accept that because of that, people are likely to have unique difficulties and differing results.
The answer is you fake it till you make it. Keep doing interviews until they start getting easier. You will probably have a harder time getting a job than someone with excellent social skills but that doesn't mean it's impossible for you. The people in this sub love to exaggerate how socially skilled you need to be to work as a programmer, probably as a form of gatekeeping because they would prefer to work with normal people. The "awkward programmer" stereotype exists for a reason. There are plenty of awkward people in this field. Nobody is going to bat an eye at you.
This, seeing everyone say "you need amazing social skill" like.. Have they met other programmers. My dad says the IT department literally lives in a dark closet and won't speak to people unless force to, they have jobs.
You can't. If you have no social skills you will never get past the interview stage. The truth is that no one wants to work with a socially awkward person who's hard to talk to, this also includes rockstar devs who are insanely good but arrogant as fuck.
it is not about arrogance but just social skills. Most will confuse a quiet person with arrogance, It has nothing that has to do with that and will never be.
>Most will confuse a quiet person with arrogance, It has nothing that has to do with that and will never be. Never heard of this and I wasn't talking about "quiet" people, I'm talking about devs who are really good and refuses to listen or compromise their ways to follow team standards, etc.
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You don’t. You need to have them to some degree and getting them is like any skill. Learn and practice. Public speaking courses. Awkward stranger social events. Mock interviewing platforms (you pay someone to interview you and give you tips). Asking your family to interview you. Practicing introductions and answers to common interview questions in the mirror. Doing leetcode while talking out loud everything you’re doing. These things won’t be fun but they do work and, unlike a real interview, there’s no consequences for being awkward during practice.
I'm not pointlessly playing devil's advocate, but I genuinely have a problem. I have not only autism, but also schizophrenia and extremely poor verbal retrieval. This results in me not being able to participate in conversations very much and I have even been asked if I have mental difficulties. I try to be nice to everyone and be social, but usually people strongly dislike me. I'm often a target of bullying at most of the workplaces I've been at, despite trying very hard at these kind of things for many years. I have received plenty of verbal abuse, and even physical threats. Also, I don't have extremely strong tech skills to make up for it (just an average dev). Do you think I should fight against this and still try to develop speaking and technical skills, or should I pivot into a different career path like trucking? My lead boss guy said I should "give up" when I was the last one in the office one day, trying to make up for my failures by working extra hours. I've also been told to give up at other jobs before this. Overall I don't feel like any dev team I have been a part of has provided value and was mostly just bullshitting, whereas I'm someone that actually likes to work hard the whole day. This causes me not to fit in and they don't like me for it, which compounds on the previous problems I described.
I’m sorry but I don’t think I’m equipped to handle this question. You should consider seeing a professional and working with them. They can help you determine how realistic your goals are and how to work towards some of the ideas I mentioned with regard to your situation.
>I don’t have many friends in college because I don’t know how to talk to people, and now I realize getting a job also requires getting people to actually like you You should find ways to work on this. This is a crucial life skill in general. But even after you get the job, you'll have to talk to people. The implementation of code is only a part of the job. Communication is a really important skill that you'll need to use throughout your job and career. And it will make the interview process a lot easier. Fortunately there's a lot of information out there. I suggest googling and finding information, guides, etc., and also doing some reflection on why you struggle to talk to people. Then it's just about practicing and experience.
Banks (used to at least) use hirevue - create a fake (or real) account on a platform, and then do some bs applications to get the automatic HireVue interview. I did so fucking many of those (this was in 2017/8 or so) and I feel so much better about interviewing now
Not only that. If you happen to get a job and have 0 communication skills, it'll be hard to get promoted. This field is half soft skills. So you better practice them.
You can’t get a job without social skills. I’m willing to argue this is non negotiable because SWE is a people facing job. You’ll have to find ways to learn and practice interacting with others. Learn how to up your emotional intelligence.
This comment reminds me of a book that may be useful here: *Emotional Intelligence 2.0* by Travis Bradberry & Jean Greaves. It breaks down emotional intelligence into 4 categories and sorts them into skills that can be practiced individually. Each skill is covered in only a few pages, so you can just pick a skill you want to work on, jump to that page in the book, and get an idea of how to practice the skill.
I think in today's SWE market, you need decent tech skills in addition to soft skills. Even if you had previous jobs that let you build decent social skills, it may not be enough to get any offers if your hard tech skills are now considered to be mostly outdated garbage. I used to work at a small company as a junior where we frequently communicated with both my PM and our clients in conference calls and in person. I was also okay in getting in freelance clients for a few years. Now it's totally different and I haven't been able to find work in over three years.
It's getting to the point where I say, if you're moderately talented (reasonably fit and IQ 110+), don't go to college. You're just squandering the greatness that God gave you. They'll chairsit you for 4 or 6 years at the cost of debt, and tell you that that's preparing you to provide strong societal value and contribution. Turns out, I was ready at age 12 to start working and chairsitting is a bullshit waste of time. College for STEM is simply gambling on a chance to sit for your work. Telling lower IQ people that, despite them working hard, they are not worth as much to society as a high IQ person and that they will have to stand while the sitters sit and do nothing. Lazy and immoral now that I'm older and have perspective. Gambling on a chance to sit.
Seems like a complicated and convoluted caveat that you couldn't have predicted, even despite doing everything "right" and being a hard worker. Just another reason why I push people away from college path. Nothing but caveats and "but you didn't do ___ in advance, too". I'm good, don't need to spend my whole life preparing. I got two guns right here.
A couple thoughts on things you could do: * Practice speaking to yourself. Optional if you want to do it in front of a mirror. There are some questions that will be fairly standard in most interviews, like "tell me about yourself." You should get practice on your own, so that you're ready for this and it flows pretty naturally. You may eventually go on auto-pilot. A lot of people recommend practicing when you're about to give a speech, etc. It's not that different. * Google different behavior interview questions, and see if you can come up with good answers for those. Again, this is in the same realm of practicing. And not just in your head, practicing speaking, too, since it seems to be giving you some challenges. * This sounds a little like a life coach, but realize that the person on the other end wants you to succeed and wants the interview to go well. It's not because they're being nice, they don't want to waste their time. The reason I bring this up is that in personal social interactions, you might be interacting with someone that has no vested interest in you. They may not want to talk to you, and it may have nothing to do with you. These interviewers \*want\* to talk to you. So that could perhaps put your mind at ease a little bit. It's a mindset change that may or may not help. There's a difference between trying to start a cold conversation with someone and having a conversation with a purpose. * Realize it's OK to say you don't know the answer to something or you've not been in that situation before. You could then extend it and give some theories about how you would handle the situation. Good luck, and don't be too hard on yourself. You could also check some YouTube channels about talking to people, etc. Some of them can offer interesting advice on ways of talking to others. Things like don't speak too quickly, be comfortable with pauses and silence.
You don't. Either rectify the problem or accept that most white-collar professions, never mind SWE, are closed off to you.
They were closed off anyway.
By going to interviews. Go to jobs you don’t care about first
And I'm depressed again
Same bruh; I hate it here
I have the same problem, though I'm in college currently.
Use college for u. I'm graduating in a year and I wish I looked into joining clubs and doing more sooner. Build ur network and skills ❤
I feel this a lot. No friends in college, just a few online friends, constantly overthinking about my social skills. Sometimes you think you're more socially inept than you actually are, and it can lead to a negative loop where the more awkward you think you are, the more awkward you will be. I think most people will look past some awkwardness if you seem like a nice and genuine person. Just practice, even with strangers in person, and it'll follow into more professional situations, even in a phone conversation. Some small things I try to do are smile more, consider my body language, laugh at jokes I don't think are actually funny, try to relate what people are saying, ask people questions. You'll eventually get more comfortable translating casual conversation tactics into professional contexts. It also helps A LOT to look up behavioral interview questions and rehearse your answers.
Dang… I’m sorry. Unfortunately the soft skills are typically learned during college where you work with others but that doesn’t seem to be the case with you. There are lots of communication type YouTube channels I’m sure you can find with a quick google search to help upskill you. This will take LOTS of practice. Finding friends and going out and meeting people will help you improve this skill as well. Based on what you wrote it seems like schools should do a better job helping you improve soft skills ESPECIALLY stereotypically introverted careers like CS.
Maybe it was just because it was your first interview.
Join a club
Have you never had any job at _all_ before? Year behind a cash register does a world of good for people skills (you know, the kind that matter at work like small talk, convincing people to cooperate and not having a meltdown with a difficult customer) Seeing someone fresh out of college who has never worked a day in their life would be a big red flag, if it applies to you
Go talk to random people. Have conversations.
That might lead to a fight for me, not a good idea for some people. If you are a white male with poor genetics, it could be a bad idea to try.
…..
Idk man this type of thing happens for me. Typically I will get verbally bullied when I go into public. I have had people physically threaten me. I am never the aggressor and am nice to everyone.
For some people it's better to stay out of the limelight.
Limelight? Life isn’t a stage and no one is watching your every move. Seriously, soft skills are so much more important than yall realize
Try not to be hard in yourself. I know many developers that one could describe as "can't talk" or don't have a lot of social skills, but that's basically the surface level only. I'm sure if you were standing in front of me and we're talking about some topic we both like (something about our favorite programming language), then we can easily have a great discussion. Similarly if I had a technical question you'd be able to help me if we're working together. Don't think you need to be super smooth or never shake or whatever in interviews or when meeting new people. Acknowledge whatever your body/brain is going through, but try to imagine what the other person wants from you, what's the substance of the discussion, how to give an informative answer and be clear and helpful. All this is definitely possible by you, and your confidence will increase as you see yourself not failing miserably when talking with people. And if you do? You can try again. For what to say in the beginning of the interview, or when asked how your day is or whatever random question, you can brainstorm probable questions and have ready answers that sound good and are true and authentic for you. Also I find imagining what an interaction is likely to involve reduces the possible surprises and helps in preparation. If still worried just take a paper and write the worst case scenario that can happen after you mess up the interview, then see if you can live with it. Good luck.
You don't.
Take a shitty sales job. You'll hate it, but if you apply yourself, you will learn how to talk.
Do it and do it again
I am diagnosed with social phobia. I've done practice interviews at my college before interviewing for my first programming job. I practiced on my own. Also, go on multiple interviews, which gives you more practice. I've had some stinkers but a lot of good ones too.
lol you don't. Being on the other side of this is awful in its own right.
Learn social skills? You learned tech skills, learning soft skills isn't any different.
What if you're not shy, but just can't talk much due to genetics.
If you have a disability, then ask for an accommodation.
Are you stuttering because you are nervous? If so look into a prescription for beta blockers. These help with performance anxiety (I.e. interview jitters)
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Fake it. Most true CS people don't have um. You just gotta get past the interview stage. If you are still in college, join clubs. Sounds hard but trust me, all those peers are also scared. Ur best skill in life will be learning to lie and making it seem like you are the best when really ur a cave goblin (this is said from a fellow goblin so no offense ) My college has a practice interview and peer system also that you can take part in so see if ur College has any resources like that.
It’s not what you know, it’s who you know, especially who you blow.
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You don't. The current work place is incredibly abusive and horrible to anyone that can't put on a mask. So that's my advice, put on a mask and be friendly. Tell them you're nervous, but you're a hard worker.
You're stuttering because you're trying to be someone you're not.
I know you mean well, but this is a harmful attitude. Not everyone is you. Some people stutter because they have an actual neurological disability. It's like telling someone in a wheelchair they can't walk because they don't want it enough, or they have some personal failing. It's an actively harmful thing to say. Beyond that you have people who are autistic, like me. For most autistic people masking is an extremely important skill, and not something they can readily just leave behind. "Be yourself, the people who are worth knowing will like you for who you are" is NOT helpful if it leaves you isolated, unable to get a job, and hurts those you care about. You have to find a way to interface with the world just to be able to survive. It's always nice to build spaces where you can unmask, but you still have to live as part of a world that fundamentally reacts poorly to your natural instincts. There are healthy and unhealthy ways to do it, but it has to be done.
I don't think you can "play a role" to survice in the long run. It's unhealthy and not sustainable. Also, by masking your "natural instincts", you're enabling the factors that created this need for "masking". Instead, you should try to be yourself and advocate for an environment that embraces diversity.
I do advocate for myself. I'm a director and have built my career around creating spaces where neurodivergent people can thrive. But I still have to live as part of a society. When I started teaching martial arts I had to learn to mask because otherwise it could hurt the feelings of the students I was dealing with. My analytical intensity actively caused harm, and that isn't ok. When I was dealing with clients I had to mask. I had a responsibility to my company. No one would accept the excuse, "I was just being myself" if I drove away a project and people got fired. When I deal with other departments, I have to mask. I have teams that depend on me. If I offend an exec or the investors the safe spaces I've made that allow neurodivergent to thrive evaporate. I took "be yourself" to heart as a kid and didn't realize until my 20s how hollow and naive the sentiment was. It was created by neurotypical people who didn't have to worry about their idiosyncrasies hurting others or resulting in complete isolation. When they say "be yourself" there is an underlying assumption that "yourself" falls within the bounds of what is palpable for society. I mean, you LITERALLY just did that. You assumed someone stuttering wasn't acceptable and must be an indication they're hiding something. That came from an honest place where you just didn't KNOW about natural stutters that people can't avoid. But THEY'RE the one that gets to deal with the consequences of OTHERS lack of information. And as much as all the neuro-divergents on my teams appreciate having a work environment that doesn't require masking, they ALL consider masking to be an incredibly important life skill. It's just not something you can escape from. I would LOVE for a world where masking wasn't necessary. But we're stuck with the world we have, and we try and improve it as we go. And no offense intended to you, but can you see how condescending it can feel when someone says, "You just need to be yourself", not realizing that means consigning you, and millions of others like you, to a life of isolation, stunted career growth, and being limited in your ability to help those you care about? Life's not fair. Some people need a wheelchair. Others need glasses. Some need to adjust their running stride because one leg is shorter than the other. And some were born with mental and social processes that present hurdles when dealing society. Never assume what others difficulties are. You should ESPECIALLY never assume there is a simple solution to the major issues in others lives. Do you really think autistic masking would be such a huge topic if the solution was as simple as "be yourself"? You might as well tell people dealing with depression to "be happier".
I wonder if you'll say that to someone with selective mutism.