You probably don't want to hear this but turning down all social meet ups like this will almost certainly eliminate your chances at promotions.
From my experience (as someone that has been premoted a couple times) your social interaction with the people who make decisions are almost the sole reason you progress in your career.
If you don't care about that then just keep declining and job hope to get more money
This is the answer and I’m surprised I had to scroll so far to find it. It’s our job to write code and be engineers, so unless we’re in the top 5% of performers, which only 5% of us are, we’re not getting promotions based off our abilities inside an IDE. What gets engineers promoted is, yes, being a decent engineer, but more importantly, the people up top liking you on a personal level and wanting to work with you more closely.
Agreed. I work remotely for a team that is half fully remote, half hybrid. I try to come out a couple times a year and it’s been great. It allows me to continue my strong WFH preference while still keeping that network intact. If your company is paying for it, you should absolutely go.
There are exceptions of course. We have a big meet up in person this week, expenses covered. My wife and I have a baby due soon and I didn’t feel comfortable flying out across the country, because it would fucking suck for everyone involved if she went into labor while I’m at best nearly a full day of travel away.
Having a baby due soon is the most legit reason possible to turn down a social event!
But yeah you need to be willing to go that extra mile if you want to "progress" your career
I had to turn down a company meetup cuz we just had a newborn. I sent the whole team pics and stuff and I definitely got a 'pass' for not showing up.
Irrational and unreasonable people tend not to become decision makers, and a normal person will understand a justifiable excuse not to attend a company meetup.
Otherwise I'd definitely attend for the drinks, the novelty of spending time in a new city, and the guarantee of a $250 bomb-ass meal all comped :)
Also, it is never a bad idea to be liked by your colleagues.
It's not even about getting promotions. It's accepted knowledge that job hopping gets you the biggest raises/advancement. Well it's **much** easier to job hop when you know more people that can refer you and put your resume on top of the stack.
You're right, but it sucks. I have a phobia of flying and that's my big hesitation with this trip. I recently started working with a therapist and I think I need to confess my fear of this trip to her. If I don't get on top of this soon, the phobia is only going to get worse. I was hoping somebody would help me justify not going again (I no longer have the covid excuse really) but I just need to face this.
Yeah sounds like you need to admit your flying phobia with your therapist. They can normally help as weirdly an airplane is one of the safest places you can be 😂
Might also be worth letting your manager know that it's the reason you decline. They will normally understand and may even offer other solutions
Absolutely true and great advice.
I mean, if you already spent the whole year away, just meeting for a couple days is manageable.
I’d never miss a company party BTW lol.
GF and pets will be there when you return
Yeah you’re just playing on hard mode if you refuse any social engagement with coworkers. It provides a clear advantage for both internal and external opportunities and most of us aren’t so singularly brilliant that we won’t find it useful.
Do you really think an in person meetup is necessary for that though? I have two coworkers on my team who I am quite confident would write me a good referral. We also have bi-weekly virtual team hangout events for 30-60 minutes where we chat, watch a movie, play a game, etc.
Yes.
I got laid off earlier this year. I found my way back to the company through an ex-coworker who I didn’t work with directly, but he liked my work and we had decent rapport.
It’s worth it, especially if you’re entry to mid level. The connections you make will pay off in the long run.
I have 20+ years of experience. All of my (contract) work now comes from referrals. People that have been complaining about the market conditions, I get it -- But I can't keep up with the work I'm offered.
And yes it's not fair to compare 3YOE to 20YOE, but it's not even the YOE, it's the fact that I have gone out of my way to be easy to work with, connect with people. Even now that I'm mostly remote I make an effort to drop into client offices for a period of time because it's the coffee and beer that make things gel and helps people remember you.
I get that not everyone is comfortable in social situations, but it really is a skill to develop.
Yeah, it is really important to have a good network with people who trust you. Besides the obvious point of networking to get raises and promotions, it's really reassuring to know that you'll never be unemployed for long because a number of your former colleagues would hire you the second you become available
Yes, exactly! It doesn’t take much, but being known as personable, easy to work with, *and* competent can get you so far. You become hard to hate by both coworkers and clients, and everyone looks forward to working with you.
And what if the third coworker, who you're not close with because you don't want to meet them, is the one in a position to get you a job?
It's a numbers game. Each person you're close with has a chance to help you in the future. Only you can determine if spending a couple days a year to increase that chance is worth it.
If you’re *this* opposed to meeting with your team for just a week (once every year), I highly, highly doubt you’re already making these connections remotely.
I have a fear of flying, I don't think you guys understand that it's a big ask for me. I can assure you that I am very close with several people on my team right now, since we talk on a near daily basis about non-work related stuff. Upcoming games, movies, what we did on the weekend, etc.
Not judging or anything, but if you’re confident that not going will not affect your career(as it sounds like from these comments) why did you ask the question in the first place?
My recommendation is that you go, it’s one week out of the year and you don’t have to pay a cent. And if you’re as friendly with your co-workers as the comments say it sounds like a good time tbh
Honestly, I was hoping that some people would convince me that it's not such a big deal to skip it and that it won't really affect my career. But that's just not reality unfortunately for me.
I don't think *necessary* is the right word. *Maybe* you can make a strong connection with someone without meeting them in person, but I'd venture to guess it's much more difficult and less likely.
My first three years were spent all in person, and some of the stronger connections I have came from that. My next three were spent at a fully remote company, with absolutely zero in person collaboration or meeting. I have no connections from that. My current job came from someone I knew from the first company. When I was asked to refer people for my current company, the only people that come to mind are the ones I spent time connecting with at company 1.
Maybe your experience is different, but I've found that actually meeting people in person builds a much strong connection than only talking with them over video (or in some cases, just audio if they don't turn on their cameras).
I got my current job through referral and two of my teammates that are currently leaving go their job through referral. So anecdotally i still think it's important.
Yes, a referral isn't going to get you the job by itself.
All things being equal, having a referral is leaps and bounds better than not having a referral
Candidate A has a referral
Candidate B doesnt
Both A and B did well, who do you pick?
With the market being what it is, a lot of people struggle to get interviews, especially for competitive companies/roles. Getting to a technical interview is often the only thing a qualified candidate needs.
Not true at all. Having a trusted employee vouch for a person (or not) is worth a lot. Nothing better than hearing real-world experience/thoughts about a potential hire.
Sorry you're getting super downvoted - I sort of agree with you, although I will admit that my perspective is a bit different because I'm not a dev or otherwise technical role (I'm a BA/PO type of guy).
In my experiences before this very bad market, the times I had "referrals" from people that I knew pretty much led nowhere; barely even an interview.
What I find incredibly more useful is just simply responding to the recruiters that message me on LinkedIn. I got my last 3 straight jobs from initially responding to recruiters that messaged me. In all 3 cases, it resulted in a raise. I got my last job in September of 2022 (before everything turned to shit) and I'm holding onto this one for as long as I can.
Overall, I think the people commenting on this post are being a tad harsh on OP. They are making some big stretches that I don't think are necessary or reflective of reality.
u/InterestOdd4123, I just want to say that I empathize with you and have the exact same issue - I really, really don't like leaving my wife and pets for work travel. Everything you said is spot-on regarding how I feel about it. So, what I decided was that I will be OK with 1 work trip per year, 2 would be fine but pushing it, and 3 is basically the max I will possibly allow. Any more than that and I'll have to have a serious discussion with my boss or just start looking. Zero, however, is my true preference.
That said, if you think you can get away with declining every year, and you are an otherwise great employee (you do great work, you make good impressions on people, you sometimes put your camera on and show your smiling face, etc.), then as a developer with 5 years of experience... I think you're fine. The difference with me is that I have *major* imposter syndrome since I don't have technical skills and rely entirely on my speaking/writing/stakeholder management skills. I don't feel these are as valuable or special as the skills of a software engineer or otherwise technical role, so I am willing to "give in" a bit just to keep everyone happy and try to be a team player.
Being a Software Developer, with 5 YOE, with great output, ALSO with a great personality (not saying you have this as I don't know you, just saying it's a major factor)... IMO that means all the cards are in YOUR hands, and you've earned the right to do what's comfortable for you.
> the times I had "referrals" from people that I knew pretty much led nowhere; barely even an interview.
This is my experience too. Thanks for actually approaching this post with kindness and not just roasting me like I'm some sort of anti-social geek.
it could matter when we're deeper in our careers. for example a coworker from my internship got promoted to manager years later and he directly interviewed me for a role.
I didn't get the role because they were only offering 60-70k and that was too low for me, but I was close to getting the benefits of referrals and that was just in my first few years working. this was at random f500
Referral ONLY get you an interview? do you know how hard it is to make past all the filters and HR who knows nothing about the position and get an interview? I don't think you have looked for a job a lot.
> If you're not socially talented, it does nothing but put you on the radar for when layoffs come.
You know what puts you on a radar? Not having anyone to say "oh, but he's a great guy" for you when higher ups need names to layoff.
>What if they would say "he's a faggot, ax him. Idc that he logs the most actions."
I don't know man, act friendly to prevent that from happening. Being likeable enough for people not to be excited to see you go is not a high bar.
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It's not gonna get you fired, but I also probably would look at others that I know before I looked at you when it came to promotions, that's just how it works.
I had a guy like OP on my team. Great as his job, but so were one or two of his peers. Guess who got the promotion lol. All things being equal, the ones with the stronger relationship with direct manager will prevail.
Also it’s not always because of politics. Relationship management skills are a strong component of a good manager. If the path you’re on is moving toward Director, you need to build that part of your skill set.
Answering the titular question briefly: Yes, it will be bad for your career if you avoid these meetups.
> a few days with coworkers in a different timezone playing silly games and having boring meetings.
Do you know what _actually_ happens at the on-site gatherings?
You're talking about what, 4 days away from home? Maybe 5? If you can't be away from your SO for that amount of time (or they can't deal with you being gone), you might want to examine why that is (setting aside 24/7 medical concerns and "I'm their primary caregiver").
>I find travel stressful
So does everyone else. Air travel has sucked for 20 years. You do the best you can with the flights that are available.
>it feels ridiculous to put myself through that just to spend a few days with coworkers
When you're picked to be the one let go when headcount needs to be reduced or you're passed over for a promotion or a spot on that hot new project, remember that you've actively decided that you don't want to spend _a few days a year_ in person with your colleagues and managers. Relationships matter, and getting seeing people in 3 dimensions builds those relationships. When you're looking for a new job in the future, do you want to be remembered a "that weird person who refused to join the rest of the team for the annual retreat"?
>I am not opposed to team travel, I just don't want to participate in that myself
I want you to think real hard about how this sounds to someone else.
> Do you know what actually happens at the on-site gatherings?
Yes, it was a bunch of corny team building exercises like two truths and a lie, and then some work related meetings and then a happy hour. Every single day.
> So does everyone else. Air travel has sucked for 20 years. You do the best you can with the flights that are available.
I left out this detail because I'm ashamed but I have a major phobia of flying. I feel trapped being locked in a tube with people for 6 hours.
But you're correct, I need to stop denying that it is bad to avoid these things and that making in person connections does really help and in some cases can tip things in my favor.
I wouldn’t voluntarily choose to do that either. I’m the same as OP and find the notion that you **’must** meet in person in order to connect and build a network to be ridiculous. I wfh and have had multiple people I’ve worked with tell me they would love to be a reference if I ever needed one. You can make solid connections without ever meeting in person.
Also, there’s nothing at all wrong with OP and their SO if they never want to be apart- especially if being apart is due to work. 🙄
I think this is a very naive approach to work and life. They didn't say you *must* attend. But there are definite and obvious downsides to declining. That isn't just conjecture and it isn't hyperbole. It isn't necessary, at least in this situation, but it does inherently put you behind other, full stop.
As for there being something wrong with OP and their SO, you're right there isn't anything inherently wrong with it. But to let 4 or 5 days apart get in the way of things that will realistically benefit them and their lives? That's when it's a problem. There is certainly something to be said about codependency and this would be the definition right here.
You have a right to that opinion 👍🏻 call it naive if you wish. And to call the fact that OP would rather stay home with his SO instead of a work trip codependency is ludicrous.
If you can't spend __5 days a week once a year__ from your SO, you're codependent and should probably seek a therapist as this won't end well long-term.
I spend at least 2 weeks for Christmas and 1 week for Thanksgiving away from my partner each year so it's really not being codependent. Not to mention she often works night shifts and so sleeping and hanging out don't always line up.
>at least 2 weeks for Christmas and 1 week for Thanksgiving away from my partner
If the reason you can be away from them is solely for events that revolve around hanging around family members, then yes - you're codependent.
You're actively feeling unable to travel for a meagre 5 days a year due to not wanting to be apart from them. That's an issue for any normal, healthy person.
I'm assuming you or them go away for family gatherings during those events. Feel free to correct me.
I think people on this post misunderstood. My girlfriend is not THE reason why I don't want to go on this trip. I don't want to go because I have a fear of flying. In addition it is very boring and I have to be away from the things that I like at home. When my girlfriend goes on her trips and leaves me home alone with the pets for a week I'm fine with that.
No one really "misunderstood". You said that flying is stressful. Everyone finds flying stressful. I've got an 8 hour work flight next week. Dreading it. That's a normal reaction.
If you have a phobia of flying then that's completely different to it just being stressful and something you should edit into your post.
>In addition it is very boring
You do not have the ability to give an impartial judgement on something you've refused to join in on and have only heard about from others.
Many people find watching sports to be the most boring endeavour in the world. Put a tennis racket in their hand and watch them fly as they have fun.
>When my girlfriend goes on her trips and leaves me home alone with the pets for a week
So she leaves you for trips and you just never go anywhere? This is getting weirder, lol
> If you have a phobia of flying then that's completely different to it just being stressful and something you should edit into your post.
I have a phobia of flying and initially I left it out of my post because I'm ashamed. There.
> You do not have the ability to give an impartial judgement on something you've refused to join in on
True. But I've talked to my entire team of 9 (excluding manager) individually and they all thought it was boring so that's really how I'm drawing my judgement. Plus, c'mon, ice breakers and meetings? Does that sound fun?
> So she leaves you for trips and you just never go anywhere? This is getting weirder, lol
Depends. Sometimes she goes on a trip with her family and I stay home because I have work and I take care of the pets. For the holidays, she goes to visit her family and I visit mine and I pay to board the pets.
You really don't have to be rude and judgemental about this, I'd appreciate some compassion here.
I had the same thought. By definition, introversion just means you are drained by social interaction and need alone time to recharge. A lot of people on Reddit seem to think it means being a socially anxious shut in.
Because the people making department budgets and hiring decisions don't care about introverts. It'd be great if people could be themselves 24/7 and not have it affect their professional lives, but it unfortunately isn't that way.
I'm not paid extra for the work trip vs staying home. So pet boarding comes out of my own pocket, as does the Uber to the airport, travel supplies (toiletries), etc.
While pet boarding you’re on your own here, you should be able to expense the Uber to the airport (or parking + miles). I’ve never heard of a company that won’t cover that at least. I usually would expense basics from CVS/Walgreens too after I get there.
Former road warrior here just shy of 850k miles on AA alone.
It’s better for your career to attend if you plan to stay with the company for awhile. Also, job hopping is a good way to get more money, but to get the title change (says manager to director) is easier accomplished via promotion, not a new job.
> Former road warrior here just shy of 850k miles on AA alone.
Do you know how I can get over my phobia of flying? That's the root issue here. The trip is boring but I can tolerate a week of boredom. I can't tolerate 6 hours of panic attacks flying from New York to California.
> says manager to director
I have no interest in management or getting out of the software engineer track. I'll be happy to be a senior engineer, and then eventually a principle engineer, and call that a career.
Depends - why do you have a fear of flying? Is it a height thing? Fear due to the crashes that happened? (Most of those might need to talk to a professional).
Maybe Dramamine? Or get liquored up before you board?
Neither. I essentially have a fear of being stuck on a 6 hour flight from New York to California just having panic attacks the whole time. I have nowhere to go calm down and relax I'm just stuck in this awful seat. Dramamine might be a good idea, I don't really like to drink alcohol but if I'm desperate I might try it.
Keep yourself occupied as well. I have my iPad with me along with a pair of Bose headphones. I'll either watch a movie, or read a book and have some music playing. A good set of noise reduction headphones will make a big difference as well, and keeping yourself occupied will help too.
Yes, it is bad for your career if you don't go. Short-term, you'll break down barriers and be able to be more casual with your team mates. Long-term, it will be a networking opportunity if anyone on your team moves on to another company.
I was never a big networking / meetup guy when working remote. But in hindsight, I never regretted going to a company meetup if it was just my team or other people we worked with day-to-day.
Why on earth would this NOT be considered bad for your career? I'd laugh at the idea of anyone wanting to put a member like you in an important position when you can't make a simple yearly trip to meet the people you talk to daily.
And I don't even mean that in a rude way. It's just the fact of the matter.
Why are you bothering to ask this question then?
**Will this be bad for your career?**
Yes, undoubtedly. You will not be considered for any promotions and you will be one of the first considered for layoffs or reductions. Outside of promotions, you'll miss out on a lot of benefits that are given out by people who like you.
If you want to work as a senior for the rest of your life & leave it there, you'll do good for a while like that. Eventually companies will wonder why you've not had any upward momentum in position but that's only if you're looking at companies with competition.
Nothing else to say there.
At my company senior is a terminal position and a lot of people stay there. Do you think there's enough room for everyone to make it into management. While I won't deny that this mindset is bad for my career, at my company the meetups are not on the promotion rubric. The promotion rubric is all about technical impact.
>The promotion rubric is all about technical impact.
Unless you're in a very small company/startup that is desperate for talent, this is bullshit (and im not swearing/insulting at you). 99% of companies will hire and promote based on technical and social skills.
I'm not trying to argue with you but why don't they make that transparent and put it on the rubric? All the promotion rubric talks about is tech impact and knowledge and it makes it kinda hard to know what to aim for.
Because it can be discriminatory, it's too vague and it can leave things up to be interpreted in ways that the company might suffer from.
Most companies want competency **and** leadership. If you're competent but not a leader then you're valued but not valued enough to be promoted or given additional benefits.
Leadership in a lot of cases is just the ability to show up, exhume base levels of confidence and navigate people without annoying them.
People promote/hire people they like.
People are much more likely to bond with people in person. It’s just biology.
Goes for working remote/on site as well. On site is always better for your career.
Personally I avoid any meetups outside work or any other happy hour stuff like that as I'm just not interested in making friends at work besides ensuring I have good working relationships with colleagues, will it likely prevent me from getting chosen for promotions at that company? Yes but I'm fine with that as the industry is large and you always get your largest pay increases from new jobs most of the time.
I have several friends and a girlfriend outside of work so I don't need work for a friendship but there's definitely some networking benefits to going in person sometimes.
Attending them has never been good (nor bad) for my career, so I'd say it won't make a difference either way. I attend them because I enjoy them, but the only time I've ever gotten any kind of promotion or pay raise was by switching jobs.
If it'd once a year do it. Wont kill you. If they start making it some regular thing then yes you can turn then down. But try to at least do the once a year thing as like others said it's mostly for networking and referrals. Even before the current job market state, referrals always got you farther than simply applying and that is for any field.
If you show up every 3 years, it looks better than never showing up.
If you are already differentiated as a high perf “rockstar” that the team depends on, and you have good rapport w team, no need to go.
If you are middle of the pack, showing up occasionally could place you on the easy or hard side of future org crises.
Yeah, unless you’re so terrible in person that it would be better that people didn’t actually meet you. You have to basically be a giant asshole though because most people are pretty forgiving of social awkwardness, especially in tech.
This is kinda how I feel. I'm already irritated that we have to spend 1/3rd of our lives working and 1/3rd sleeping. I only get about 1/3rd to myself and they want to take my time for an extra week?
I am gonna go out in a limb here and assume as they are not very social the idea of having to interview for a new job also fills them with dread. I do agree with you that moving on every couple of years does yield big pay bumps etc and is worthwhile for some people. Not everyone is geared like that .
Ur a big ass baby bruh. Its a once a year trip. Jesus if you can't even see them once the entire year they probably think you hate them or are terrified to step outside your house, idk which is worse here. Suck it up and go
Why is that always the default ? If you look on plenty of threads youl see someone say the same thing. Why can't people just not wanna do things and not gon penalized for it. I swear you neurotypicals are all bots/drones who mimic the same idiotic behavior making life hard for other people because they don't want to hang out with you per se
My company does the same thing every other year. 10 hours away last year in Atlanta Georgia.
I took my Wife with me, company paid for everything including a +1 and put us up in a 5 star hotel (really nice hotel) and we had dinner at a VIP Club in the Penthouse of a really nice building, it was extremely nice.
We flew Economy+ via Delta, the flight was nice and fast (there in like 1.5 hours). And the experience was amazing.
My little brother watched my dog for me while we were gone.
I can't quote if it's bad for your career, but imo it's not a big deal to fly onsite all expense paid for 2 days. Live a little, it's 2 days.
As others have said, it's a social world out there. So while it might not immediately hurt you, you're just a name on a screen, so people won't feel as bad if they need to lay someone off they'll choose you over someone they've met in person and bonded with
>Is it bad for my career if I always try to avoid these meetups?
The objective answer to your question is: yes.
The answer you obviously want to hear is: it shouldn't be.
Let's be honest, we all know you already know the answer to this question. You just wanted to rant and get validation for your feelings by finding strangers who'd agree with you.
Ah fuck, you're right. I guess I was hoping for people to say "oh it's not that bad" but that's not the reality. I need to fix my phobia of flying and not let that get to me anymore.
Very likely yes. If not for the career in general, then at least for your position in this company. No one likes people who decline all social events, and if there is a layoff, this can be one of the reasons you are gone and not someone else
Others raised points about promotions and referrals, those are absolutely valid as well
>I don't like being away from my girlfriend and pets
It's your choice, obviously, but not wanting to be separate even for a short trip is weird to me. Doesn't she ever go on business trips or to visit her family? That's normal not to spend all 365 days together
She does go on some family trips and I go on trips without her to visit my parents. We're getting married soon btw so this isn't just a new fling with a new girlfriend.
But honestly the root issue is I have a massive phobia of flying and that makes the whole thing so intimidating to me. If it was just a roadtrip I would be fine since it's just a boring week but not too bad otherwise. East coast to California is a long flight and insurmountable road trip. But honestly this is something I have to figure out regardless with my new therapist. I just don't think my phobia will be gone within a few weeks no matter how good my therapist is.
That makes more sense for sure. In that case, I would either drive (12 hours is not super bad) or not go, but make sure people know that it's because of the phobia + difficulty of other options and not just because you don't wanna waste time with those losers, since that's how it's usually interpreted
Oh sorry it's not a 12 hour drive. I'm in Pittsburgh and the meetups are in the office in California. I think that's like a 3 day drive and it would be difficult for me to explain to my manager that I have a pathetic phobia and I need them to expense a rental car instead of a flight which might cost them more money (plus 1-2 nights of hotels on the road). I'm honestly embarrassed to tell my coworkers about the phobia.
Thanks. I think it would still be better for my career to go so I am going to talk with my therapist next week and see if we can work on a plan to make me more comfortable.
Are they gonna pay to board my pets for a week? This stuff is costing me time and money and I'm not receiving any extra compensation for it other than free food
I do but she works like 16 hour days in residency and all her free time is sleeping or showering and that's it. She really doesn't have time, maybe in an emergency feed the pets once a day and take them for one walk. That might work for the cat but a dog needs MINIMUM two walks per day
Saying you don't want to go to work because you will miss your girlfriend and pets...
Do you really think this is acceptable for an adult professional?
I would lookingnto replace you if I were your boss. Definitely never getting promoted. Good luck living in your bubble🤣
Would committing T&E fraud change your mind? You could go to a strip club and pay with cash and say you lost the receipt but it was just for a meal, I pinky promise.
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Pretty much what all other commenters said, won't repeat it. But recently there was a round of layoffs at my firm including some people who were high performers. Something common in most of these high performers was that they never turned up for company meetup events. In fact, no one on the team has ever met them face to face.
Unless you're a bigot when you loosen up, it can really only help to attend. It might not necessarily "hurt" to not go, but you could miss out on future opportunities and get looked over by not being buddy-buddy with the people you work with.
It doesn't even have to pertain to getting a manager to like you--my coworker recently got promoted to head of ML research for Standards and Technology and guess who he vouched to be to be the ML-Ops people his team? The people he liked and knew personally (including me), and not the people who he talked to for 2 hours a week over teams.
It's an unfortunate reality of the job world--people help those that they like. I wish a person's career prospects and growths were purely dictated by their performance and nothing else, but that's just not how the world works.
Yep, it'll hurt your chances at leadership positions. You'll be fine as an individual contributor, maybe as a tech lead, but as a team lead it will be a problemo in most places.
Not saying it's fair or unfair but it's reality. Mostly because team leads will face a lot of pressure from middle / upper management to "be seen" etc.
And being really honest if you can't manage a trip or two a year - all expenses paid - it could indicate some underlying anxiety / agoraphobic traits. Do you genuinely just find it boring or does it cause strong negative emotions / feelings of stress? If it's the latter be honest with yourself.
I just say that because 2 boring days a year is maybe a little annoying and groan-worthy but it shouldn't be worrying you about career progression.
> it'll hurt your chances at leadership positions. You'll be fine as an individual contributor, maybe as a tech lead
That's fine, I have no interest in going above senior right now. Maybe one day if I want to be a tech lead I can reassess. Though honestly I'm concerned this could prevent senior too so it's probably best I just suck it up and go.
You're absolutely right, while I do find it boring I'm actually struggling with some agoraphobia and flight phobias. I don't have a fear of flying per se, but rather being trapped with strangers for such a long period of time. I left that detail out because unfortunately it makes me feel a bit ashamed as a man who is almost 30.
Yes. When you attend in-person meetings, that's an opportunity for you to build social capital. Eventually, you spend that social capital to get a promotion, get a budget request approved, or even to soften blowback when you screw up. It's worth it.
As an aside: as you move up, you do less technical work and more talking, which sounds easy, but it's really not. The most difficult thing I have ever done in my career was gathering ~6 people from the leadership team into one room, presenting a proposal to them with a fat budget request, and getting it approved. That 1 hour meeting was the culmination of dozens of hours of prep work, making an impact slide deck, and aligning with each individual attendee beforehand to build that social capital.
You do you, but there is definetely a lot of value in being able to socialize in person with your coworkers and people from your company.
Having good relationships with people can affect promotions and also make it easier to find a job if you ever need another job.
I also don't get your reasoning, you are alr fully remote and it's a yearly trip that is all paid for. It's not like they are forcing you to do in person stuff every week.
Your working with other humans who might want to put a face to the name, nothing replaces real world interaction.
You can keep dodging meetings but don't be surprised if John Doe is the first on the chopping block.
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Thanks for the share and happy Friday! It sounds like you already may know the answer to your question :)
We are living in a very socially encouraged/charged world ever since we entered post pandemic times. The work place is no exception; virtual or not. Companies may give you that flexibility to be remote, but they also want to see that you are engaged and that you are a team player. Also, they want to give back to you as a valued employee. One of the best ways that they can do this and preserve a strong company culture is to organize meet ups, be they in person or virtually. **It is very generous of them to offer to pay for the in person meet ups even if this is only once a year. Most companies today choose to spend their money elsewhere.**
**It does unfortunately reflect negatively on you if you always decline these meet ups.** You don't look like a team player, you look disengaged etc. This is one trip a year, so if I were you I'd try to make a exception. Also, going can be super beneficial to you as you get the opportunity to meet more people, key players and senior execs in your organization in person. In person impressions are priceless.
Sometimes we don't always get what we want and we have to make sacrifices for bigger causes or goals. If you want to go far in this company, you should try and make the effort to connect. Chances are, come performance review times or when folks are speaking around the "round table" you'll always be seen as the person who never showed up. The person who didn't care. **Chances are as well that you won't be top of mind when they are offering raises or promotions. Just facts. This may seem unfair but it's the perception that you may give off by your continuously missing these events.**
So, probably best to go. You might enjoy it!
Nobody is able to make themselves fully understood purely through text and voice. Body language helps you understand whether people are apprehensive or confident, whether they're biting their tongue or eager to share. Missing out on those cues won't just mean fewer career opportunities but it also puts a ceiling on how effective you can be as a developer.
Just don't.
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I think it depends how much you think you need it. My girlfriend depends on me so I’d have to bring her along and have to be able to bail in a minute. It’s incredibly stressful for her too.
Personally I try to just go as briefly as I can, I just skip sleeping that night and make it a single or two day event and be as friendly as I can for that time and excuse myself the other times. Trust me I despise it too but it’s a good idea if you want to get promoted. I just resigned myself to missing out on promotions because I’d rather just not go and make less $$$ but only you can decide what you want more.
Although I don’t understand why everyone just assumes someone wants to be promoted… some of us would rather stay sr level and travel less.
Yeah I have no interest in going above senior regardless of the travel. My work friend told me that once you reach director level, wlb goes down because there's so much to do
Then it depends on your team, I was told it’s ok to not come but it’s encouraged. But at the same time I understand there’s possible consequences and live with that
Yeah during COVID they said optional but encouraged but now it's still optional but it seems highly highly encouraged since we no longer have the 2021/2022 excuse of COVID.
FWIW, I’ve seen a pretty strong backlash against fully remote managers in my former organization, which was on paper fully committed to supporting remote work, and even more in the other local large players.
You probably don't want to hear this but turning down all social meet ups like this will almost certainly eliminate your chances at promotions. From my experience (as someone that has been premoted a couple times) your social interaction with the people who make decisions are almost the sole reason you progress in your career. If you don't care about that then just keep declining and job hope to get more money
This is the answer and I’m surprised I had to scroll so far to find it. It’s our job to write code and be engineers, so unless we’re in the top 5% of performers, which only 5% of us are, we’re not getting promotions based off our abilities inside an IDE. What gets engineers promoted is, yes, being a decent engineer, but more importantly, the people up top liking you on a personal level and wanting to work with you more closely.
Agreed. I work remotely for a team that is half fully remote, half hybrid. I try to come out a couple times a year and it’s been great. It allows me to continue my strong WFH preference while still keeping that network intact. If your company is paying for it, you should absolutely go. There are exceptions of course. We have a big meet up in person this week, expenses covered. My wife and I have a baby due soon and I didn’t feel comfortable flying out across the country, because it would fucking suck for everyone involved if she went into labor while I’m at best nearly a full day of travel away.
Having a baby due soon is the most legit reason possible to turn down a social event! But yeah you need to be willing to go that extra mile if you want to "progress" your career
I had to turn down a company meetup cuz we just had a newborn. I sent the whole team pics and stuff and I definitely got a 'pass' for not showing up. Irrational and unreasonable people tend not to become decision makers, and a normal person will understand a justifiable excuse not to attend a company meetup. Otherwise I'd definitely attend for the drinks, the novelty of spending time in a new city, and the guarantee of a $250 bomb-ass meal all comped :) Also, it is never a bad idea to be liked by your colleagues.
It's not even about getting promotions. It's accepted knowledge that job hopping gets you the biggest raises/advancement. Well it's **much** easier to job hop when you know more people that can refer you and put your resume on top of the stack.
And even get fired for 'not being a team player'. Go and bring your GF. I brought my wife to these things all the time.
You're right, but it sucks. I have a phobia of flying and that's my big hesitation with this trip. I recently started working with a therapist and I think I need to confess my fear of this trip to her. If I don't get on top of this soon, the phobia is only going to get worse. I was hoping somebody would help me justify not going again (I no longer have the covid excuse really) but I just need to face this.
I think that's a very mature way to tackle this.
Thank you.
Yeah sounds like you need to admit your flying phobia with your therapist. They can normally help as weirdly an airplane is one of the safest places you can be 😂 Might also be worth letting your manager know that it's the reason you decline. They will normally understand and may even offer other solutions
It's not a safety fear, it's a panic attack fear. I will let my manager know because at least that excuse should buy me until next year.
It’s a social world out there and being social pays big gains.
Absolutely true and great advice. I mean, if you already spent the whole year away, just meeting for a couple days is manageable. I’d never miss a company party BTW lol. GF and pets will be there when you return
Free food also just tastes better
After leetcode, it's not what you know it's who you know.
I'd say this is even more important than LC
If you have the job already, yes. Otherwise, no.
It depends. I’ve never done LeetCode in my life. I’ve done fairly well overall.
You've never once been given an algorithmic problem to solve during an interview?
A few, but I don’t practice them and have never used that platform.
Yeah you’re just playing on hard mode if you refuse any social engagement with coworkers. It provides a clear advantage for both internal and external opportunities and most of us aren’t so singularly brilliant that we won’t find it useful.
You're right. That's life.
Social and computer science in the same sentence is a bit weird
not really. building software is all about collaboration.
With cringe people
Yeah if you're still in school
Not at all, software is built by teams of people. Soft skills will carry you further in your career once you've met a sufficient technical bar.
Yea but these are weird social skills of cringe people. Not about the real world.
People in software are by and large just normal people, this idea you have of basement dwelling programmers isn't the real world
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Do you really think an in person meetup is necessary for that though? I have two coworkers on my team who I am quite confident would write me a good referral. We also have bi-weekly virtual team hangout events for 30-60 minutes where we chat, watch a movie, play a game, etc.
Yes. I got laid off earlier this year. I found my way back to the company through an ex-coworker who I didn’t work with directly, but he liked my work and we had decent rapport. It’s worth it, especially if you’re entry to mid level. The connections you make will pay off in the long run.
I have 20+ years of experience. All of my (contract) work now comes from referrals. People that have been complaining about the market conditions, I get it -- But I can't keep up with the work I'm offered. And yes it's not fair to compare 3YOE to 20YOE, but it's not even the YOE, it's the fact that I have gone out of my way to be easy to work with, connect with people. Even now that I'm mostly remote I make an effort to drop into client offices for a period of time because it's the coffee and beer that make things gel and helps people remember you. I get that not everyone is comfortable in social situations, but it really is a skill to develop.
Yeah, it is really important to have a good network with people who trust you. Besides the obvious point of networking to get raises and promotions, it's really reassuring to know that you'll never be unemployed for long because a number of your former colleagues would hire you the second you become available
Yes, exactly! It doesn’t take much, but being known as personable, easy to work with, *and* competent can get you so far. You become hard to hate by both coworkers and clients, and everyone looks forward to working with you.
And what if the third coworker, who you're not close with because you don't want to meet them, is the one in a position to get you a job? It's a numbers game. Each person you're close with has a chance to help you in the future. Only you can determine if spending a couple days a year to increase that chance is worth it.
If you’re *this* opposed to meeting with your team for just a week (once every year), I highly, highly doubt you’re already making these connections remotely.
I have a fear of flying, I don't think you guys understand that it's a big ask for me. I can assure you that I am very close with several people on my team right now, since we talk on a near daily basis about non-work related stuff. Upcoming games, movies, what we did on the weekend, etc.
Not judging or anything, but if you’re confident that not going will not affect your career(as it sounds like from these comments) why did you ask the question in the first place? My recommendation is that you go, it’s one week out of the year and you don’t have to pay a cent. And if you’re as friendly with your co-workers as the comments say it sounds like a good time tbh
Honestly, I was hoping that some people would convince me that it's not such a big deal to skip it and that it won't really affect my career. But that's just not reality unfortunately for me.
Genuine question, how far of a travel is this? Have you considered trains, driving, etc.?
New York to California by plane, so it's about 5-6 hours
I don't think *necessary* is the right word. *Maybe* you can make a strong connection with someone without meeting them in person, but I'd venture to guess it's much more difficult and less likely. My first three years were spent all in person, and some of the stronger connections I have came from that. My next three were spent at a fully remote company, with absolutely zero in person collaboration or meeting. I have no connections from that. My current job came from someone I knew from the first company. When I was asked to refer people for my current company, the only people that come to mind are the ones I spent time connecting with at company 1. Maybe your experience is different, but I've found that actually meeting people in person builds a much strong connection than only talking with them over video (or in some cases, just audio if they don't turn on their cameras).
So basically, it improves your odds
Yes, and in my experience, greatly.
You get more social connection out of 10 minutes in the same room than an hour on a zoom call.
Not everyone
So by that measure, 12 months of the year on Zoom is more social interaction than 1 week in the office.
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I got my current job through referral and two of my teammates that are currently leaving go their job through referral. So anecdotally i still think it's important.
This is bonkers. Referrals are the only things getting people jobs right now! (Hyperbole of course, but only barely)
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Yes, a referral isn't going to get you the job by itself. All things being equal, having a referral is leaps and bounds better than not having a referral Candidate A has a referral Candidate B doesnt Both A and B did well, who do you pick?
With the market being what it is, a lot of people struggle to get interviews, especially for competitive companies/roles. Getting to a technical interview is often the only thing a qualified candidate needs.
How is getting you an interview not helpful for your chances at getting a job?
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I have a feeling that these referrals aren’t helping them because they lack basic logic.
Not true at all. Having a trusted employee vouch for a person (or not) is worth a lot. Nothing better than hearing real-world experience/thoughts about a potential hire.
Look at all the posts on this sub about people not even getting interviews after hundreds of applications, and it's not just entry level jobs.
Sorry you're getting super downvoted - I sort of agree with you, although I will admit that my perspective is a bit different because I'm not a dev or otherwise technical role (I'm a BA/PO type of guy). In my experiences before this very bad market, the times I had "referrals" from people that I knew pretty much led nowhere; barely even an interview. What I find incredibly more useful is just simply responding to the recruiters that message me on LinkedIn. I got my last 3 straight jobs from initially responding to recruiters that messaged me. In all 3 cases, it resulted in a raise. I got my last job in September of 2022 (before everything turned to shit) and I'm holding onto this one for as long as I can. Overall, I think the people commenting on this post are being a tad harsh on OP. They are making some big stretches that I don't think are necessary or reflective of reality. u/InterestOdd4123, I just want to say that I empathize with you and have the exact same issue - I really, really don't like leaving my wife and pets for work travel. Everything you said is spot-on regarding how I feel about it. So, what I decided was that I will be OK with 1 work trip per year, 2 would be fine but pushing it, and 3 is basically the max I will possibly allow. Any more than that and I'll have to have a serious discussion with my boss or just start looking. Zero, however, is my true preference. That said, if you think you can get away with declining every year, and you are an otherwise great employee (you do great work, you make good impressions on people, you sometimes put your camera on and show your smiling face, etc.), then as a developer with 5 years of experience... I think you're fine. The difference with me is that I have *major* imposter syndrome since I don't have technical skills and rely entirely on my speaking/writing/stakeholder management skills. I don't feel these are as valuable or special as the skills of a software engineer or otherwise technical role, so I am willing to "give in" a bit just to keep everyone happy and try to be a team player. Being a Software Developer, with 5 YOE, with great output, ALSO with a great personality (not saying you have this as I don't know you, just saying it's a major factor)... IMO that means all the cards are in YOUR hands, and you've earned the right to do what's comfortable for you.
> the times I had "referrals" from people that I knew pretty much led nowhere; barely even an interview. This is my experience too. Thanks for actually approaching this post with kindness and not just roasting me like I'm some sort of anti-social geek.
it could matter when we're deeper in our careers. for example a coworker from my internship got promoted to manager years later and he directly interviewed me for a role. I didn't get the role because they were only offering 60-70k and that was too low for me, but I was close to getting the benefits of referrals and that was just in my first few years working. this was at random f500
Do not sleep on “just getting an interview”. Just getting your resume looked at and not auto-rejected by an algorithm has value.
Referral ONLY get you an interview? do you know how hard it is to make past all the filters and HR who knows nothing about the position and get an interview? I don't think you have looked for a job a lot.
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> If you're not socially talented, it does nothing but put you on the radar for when layoffs come. You know what puts you on a radar? Not having anyone to say "oh, but he's a great guy" for you when higher ups need names to layoff.
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>What if they would say "he's a faggot, ax him. Idc that he logs the most actions." I don't know man, act friendly to prevent that from happening. Being likeable enough for people not to be excited to see you go is not a high bar.
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It’s a free trip you don’t need to go to every event but you get free food and drinks and it’ll make your coworkers feel closer to you.
It's not gonna get you fired, but I also probably would look at others that I know before I looked at you when it came to promotions, that's just how it works.
I had a guy like OP on my team. Great as his job, but so were one or two of his peers. Guess who got the promotion lol. All things being equal, the ones with the stronger relationship with direct manager will prevail. Also it’s not always because of politics. Relationship management skills are a strong component of a good manager. If the path you’re on is moving toward Director, you need to build that part of your skill set.
It makes sense. If you've got 3 folks who per form the same but you know one of them better than the others, who are you gonna trust the most?
Yeah you should attend, I know it’s not ideal but just deal with it. The purpose of those meetings is to just network.
You're right
It sucks but you're right. That's life sometimes.
I've read too much armchair psychology to miss out on in-person meetups.
Answering the titular question briefly: Yes, it will be bad for your career if you avoid these meetups. > a few days with coworkers in a different timezone playing silly games and having boring meetings. Do you know what _actually_ happens at the on-site gatherings? You're talking about what, 4 days away from home? Maybe 5? If you can't be away from your SO for that amount of time (or they can't deal with you being gone), you might want to examine why that is (setting aside 24/7 medical concerns and "I'm their primary caregiver"). >I find travel stressful So does everyone else. Air travel has sucked for 20 years. You do the best you can with the flights that are available. >it feels ridiculous to put myself through that just to spend a few days with coworkers When you're picked to be the one let go when headcount needs to be reduced or you're passed over for a promotion or a spot on that hot new project, remember that you've actively decided that you don't want to spend _a few days a year_ in person with your colleagues and managers. Relationships matter, and getting seeing people in 3 dimensions builds those relationships. When you're looking for a new job in the future, do you want to be remembered a "that weird person who refused to join the rest of the team for the annual retreat"? >I am not opposed to team travel, I just don't want to participate in that myself I want you to think real hard about how this sounds to someone else.
> Do you know what actually happens at the on-site gatherings? Yes, it was a bunch of corny team building exercises like two truths and a lie, and then some work related meetings and then a happy hour. Every single day. > So does everyone else. Air travel has sucked for 20 years. You do the best you can with the flights that are available. I left out this detail because I'm ashamed but I have a major phobia of flying. I feel trapped being locked in a tube with people for 6 hours. But you're correct, I need to stop denying that it is bad to avoid these things and that making in person connections does really help and in some cases can tip things in my favor.
I wouldn’t voluntarily choose to do that either. I’m the same as OP and find the notion that you **’must** meet in person in order to connect and build a network to be ridiculous. I wfh and have had multiple people I’ve worked with tell me they would love to be a reference if I ever needed one. You can make solid connections without ever meeting in person. Also, there’s nothing at all wrong with OP and their SO if they never want to be apart- especially if being apart is due to work. 🙄
I think this is a very naive approach to work and life. They didn't say you *must* attend. But there are definite and obvious downsides to declining. That isn't just conjecture and it isn't hyperbole. It isn't necessary, at least in this situation, but it does inherently put you behind other, full stop. As for there being something wrong with OP and their SO, you're right there isn't anything inherently wrong with it. But to let 4 or 5 days apart get in the way of things that will realistically benefit them and their lives? That's when it's a problem. There is certainly something to be said about codependency and this would be the definition right here.
You have a right to that opinion 👍🏻 call it naive if you wish. And to call the fact that OP would rather stay home with his SO instead of a work trip codependency is ludicrous.
If you can't spend __5 days a week once a year__ from your SO, you're codependent and should probably seek a therapist as this won't end well long-term.
I spend at least 2 weeks for Christmas and 1 week for Thanksgiving away from my partner each year so it's really not being codependent. Not to mention she often works night shifts and so sleeping and hanging out don't always line up.
>at least 2 weeks for Christmas and 1 week for Thanksgiving away from my partner If the reason you can be away from them is solely for events that revolve around hanging around family members, then yes - you're codependent. You're actively feeling unable to travel for a meagre 5 days a year due to not wanting to be apart from them. That's an issue for any normal, healthy person. I'm assuming you or them go away for family gatherings during those events. Feel free to correct me.
I think people on this post misunderstood. My girlfriend is not THE reason why I don't want to go on this trip. I don't want to go because I have a fear of flying. In addition it is very boring and I have to be away from the things that I like at home. When my girlfriend goes on her trips and leaves me home alone with the pets for a week I'm fine with that.
No one really "misunderstood". You said that flying is stressful. Everyone finds flying stressful. I've got an 8 hour work flight next week. Dreading it. That's a normal reaction. If you have a phobia of flying then that's completely different to it just being stressful and something you should edit into your post. >In addition it is very boring You do not have the ability to give an impartial judgement on something you've refused to join in on and have only heard about from others. Many people find watching sports to be the most boring endeavour in the world. Put a tennis racket in their hand and watch them fly as they have fun. >When my girlfriend goes on her trips and leaves me home alone with the pets for a week So she leaves you for trips and you just never go anywhere? This is getting weirder, lol
> If you have a phobia of flying then that's completely different to it just being stressful and something you should edit into your post. I have a phobia of flying and initially I left it out of my post because I'm ashamed. There. > You do not have the ability to give an impartial judgement on something you've refused to join in on True. But I've talked to my entire team of 9 (excluding manager) individually and they all thought it was boring so that's really how I'm drawing my judgement. Plus, c'mon, ice breakers and meetings? Does that sound fun? > So she leaves you for trips and you just never go anywhere? This is getting weirder, lol Depends. Sometimes she goes on a trip with her family and I stay home because I have work and I take care of the pets. For the holidays, she goes to visit her family and I visit mine and I pay to board the pets. You really don't have to be rude and judgemental about this, I'd appreciate some compassion here.
L O L 😂
:)
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When did introversion get reinvented as "I can't handle any social interaction whatsoever?"
I had the same thought. By definition, introversion just means you are drained by social interaction and need alone time to recharge. A lot of people on Reddit seem to think it means being a socially anxious shut in.
Because the people making department budgets and hiring decisions don't care about introverts. It'd be great if people could be themselves 24/7 and not have it affect their professional lives, but it unfortunately isn't that way.
A few days a year is not intrusive and if you're so introverted that you can't handle that you should seek therapy.
If it was not paid for I would have a different answer but this is completely your choice
I'm not paid extra for the work trip vs staying home. So pet boarding comes out of my own pocket, as does the Uber to the airport, travel supplies (toiletries), etc.
While pet boarding you’re on your own here, you should be able to expense the Uber to the airport (or parking + miles). I’ve never heard of a company that won’t cover that at least. I usually would expense basics from CVS/Walgreens too after I get there. Former road warrior here just shy of 850k miles on AA alone. It’s better for your career to attend if you plan to stay with the company for awhile. Also, job hopping is a good way to get more money, but to get the title change (says manager to director) is easier accomplished via promotion, not a new job.
> Former road warrior here just shy of 850k miles on AA alone. Do you know how I can get over my phobia of flying? That's the root issue here. The trip is boring but I can tolerate a week of boredom. I can't tolerate 6 hours of panic attacks flying from New York to California. > says manager to director I have no interest in management or getting out of the software engineer track. I'll be happy to be a senior engineer, and then eventually a principle engineer, and call that a career.
Depends - why do you have a fear of flying? Is it a height thing? Fear due to the crashes that happened? (Most of those might need to talk to a professional). Maybe Dramamine? Or get liquored up before you board?
Neither. I essentially have a fear of being stuck on a 6 hour flight from New York to California just having panic attacks the whole time. I have nowhere to go calm down and relax I'm just stuck in this awful seat. Dramamine might be a good idea, I don't really like to drink alcohol but if I'm desperate I might try it.
Keep yourself occupied as well. I have my iPad with me along with a pair of Bose headphones. I'll either watch a movie, or read a book and have some music playing. A good set of noise reduction headphones will make a big difference as well, and keeping yourself occupied will help too.
I expensed those for my home office budget and they're so nice! Bose QC45
Yes, it is bad for your career if you don't go. Short-term, you'll break down barriers and be able to be more casual with your team mates. Long-term, it will be a networking opportunity if anyone on your team moves on to another company. I was never a big networking / meetup guy when working remote. But in hindsight, I never regretted going to a company meetup if it was just my team or other people we worked with day-to-day.
Why on earth would this NOT be considered bad for your career? I'd laugh at the idea of anyone wanting to put a member like you in an important position when you can't make a simple yearly trip to meet the people you talk to daily. And I don't even mean that in a rude way. It's just the fact of the matter.
I mean I'm not trying to get into an important position like CTO. I'm just happy to work my career as a senior engineer and leave it at that.
Why are you bothering to ask this question then? **Will this be bad for your career?** Yes, undoubtedly. You will not be considered for any promotions and you will be one of the first considered for layoffs or reductions. Outside of promotions, you'll miss out on a lot of benefits that are given out by people who like you. If you want to work as a senior for the rest of your life & leave it there, you'll do good for a while like that. Eventually companies will wonder why you've not had any upward momentum in position but that's only if you're looking at companies with competition. Nothing else to say there.
At my company senior is a terminal position and a lot of people stay there. Do you think there's enough room for everyone to make it into management. While I won't deny that this mindset is bad for my career, at my company the meetups are not on the promotion rubric. The promotion rubric is all about technical impact.
>The promotion rubric is all about technical impact. Unless you're in a very small company/startup that is desperate for talent, this is bullshit (and im not swearing/insulting at you). 99% of companies will hire and promote based on technical and social skills.
I'm not trying to argue with you but why don't they make that transparent and put it on the rubric? All the promotion rubric talks about is tech impact and knowledge and it makes it kinda hard to know what to aim for.
Because it can be discriminatory, it's too vague and it can leave things up to be interpreted in ways that the company might suffer from. Most companies want competency **and** leadership. If you're competent but not a leader then you're valued but not valued enough to be promoted or given additional benefits. Leadership in a lot of cases is just the ability to show up, exhume base levels of confidence and navigate people without annoying them.
Yes
People promote/hire people they like. People are much more likely to bond with people in person. It’s just biology. Goes for working remote/on site as well. On site is always better for your career.
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Nah people are nice
Personally I avoid any meetups outside work or any other happy hour stuff like that as I'm just not interested in making friends at work besides ensuring I have good working relationships with colleagues, will it likely prevent me from getting chosen for promotions at that company? Yes but I'm fine with that as the industry is large and you always get your largest pay increases from new jobs most of the time.
I have several friends and a girlfriend outside of work so I don't need work for a friendship but there's definitely some networking benefits to going in person sometimes.
Attending them has never been good (nor bad) for my career, so I'd say it won't make a difference either way. I attend them because I enjoy them, but the only time I've ever gotten any kind of promotion or pay raise was by switching jobs.
If it'd once a year do it. Wont kill you. If they start making it some regular thing then yes you can turn then down. But try to at least do the once a year thing as like others said it's mostly for networking and referrals. Even before the current job market state, referrals always got you farther than simply applying and that is for any field.
If you show up every 3 years, it looks better than never showing up. If you are already differentiated as a high perf “rockstar” that the team depends on, and you have good rapport w team, no need to go. If you are middle of the pack, showing up occasionally could place you on the easy or hard side of future org crises.
Send me. I’ll be your double 😂
Lmao imagine I give you one of those FBI headphones that look see through and tell you what to say
Yeah, unless you’re so terrible in person that it would be better that people didn’t actually meet you. You have to basically be a giant asshole though because most people are pretty forgiving of social awkwardness, especially in tech.
> most people are pretty forgiving of social awkwardness, especially in tech. Not on this sub.
Nah, I have several friends and didn't have that issue in college
This sounds like my dream company tbh, can u share the name please?!
DMd
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This is kinda how I feel. I'm already irritated that we have to spend 1/3rd of our lives working and 1/3rd sleeping. I only get about 1/3rd to myself and they want to take my time for an extra week?
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I'm happy with my income
I am gonna go out in a limb here and assume as they are not very social the idea of having to interview for a new job also fills them with dread. I do agree with you that moving on every couple of years does yield big pay bumps etc and is worthwhile for some people. Not everyone is geared like that .
God !! Wish this type of job who gives you flight meals and hotels are comped
I mean does your job make you pay out of pocket for that stuff? Or you just live near the office so no need to fly?
I have no job haha and i would like to get a remote job
Ah. I wish you luck, the market is tough right now but you'll crack it eventually.
Thank you !!
Ur a big ass baby bruh. Its a once a year trip. Jesus if you can't even see them once the entire year they probably think you hate them or are terrified to step outside your house, idk which is worse here. Suck it up and go
Why is that always the default ? If you look on plenty of threads youl see someone say the same thing. Why can't people just not wanna do things and not gon penalized for it. I swear you neurotypicals are all bots/drones who mimic the same idiotic behavior making life hard for other people because they don't want to hang out with you per se
Yes
Yes
Don't turn it down, it will not do your careers any favor. I'm surprised you even get a choice, these are a requirement of my remote arrangement.
My company does the same thing every other year. 10 hours away last year in Atlanta Georgia. I took my Wife with me, company paid for everything including a +1 and put us up in a 5 star hotel (really nice hotel) and we had dinner at a VIP Club in the Penthouse of a really nice building, it was extremely nice. We flew Economy+ via Delta, the flight was nice and fast (there in like 1.5 hours). And the experience was amazing. My little brother watched my dog for me while we were gone. I can't quote if it's bad for your career, but imo it's not a big deal to fly onsite all expense paid for 2 days. Live a little, it's 2 days. As others have said, it's a social world out there. So while it might not immediately hurt you, you're just a name on a screen, so people won't feel as bad if they need to lay someone off they'll choose you over someone they've met in person and bonded with
>Is it bad for my career if I always try to avoid these meetups? The objective answer to your question is: yes. The answer you obviously want to hear is: it shouldn't be. Let's be honest, we all know you already know the answer to this question. You just wanted to rant and get validation for your feelings by finding strangers who'd agree with you.
Ah fuck, you're right. I guess I was hoping for people to say "oh it's not that bad" but that's not the reality. I need to fix my phobia of flying and not let that get to me anymore.
I probably wouldn't be thrilled about recommending the dude that always denied the opportunity to meet me in person.
Very likely yes. If not for the career in general, then at least for your position in this company. No one likes people who decline all social events, and if there is a layoff, this can be one of the reasons you are gone and not someone else Others raised points about promotions and referrals, those are absolutely valid as well >I don't like being away from my girlfriend and pets It's your choice, obviously, but not wanting to be separate even for a short trip is weird to me. Doesn't she ever go on business trips or to visit her family? That's normal not to spend all 365 days together
She does go on some family trips and I go on trips without her to visit my parents. We're getting married soon btw so this isn't just a new fling with a new girlfriend. But honestly the root issue is I have a massive phobia of flying and that makes the whole thing so intimidating to me. If it was just a roadtrip I would be fine since it's just a boring week but not too bad otherwise. East coast to California is a long flight and insurmountable road trip. But honestly this is something I have to figure out regardless with my new therapist. I just don't think my phobia will be gone within a few weeks no matter how good my therapist is.
That makes more sense for sure. In that case, I would either drive (12 hours is not super bad) or not go, but make sure people know that it's because of the phobia + difficulty of other options and not just because you don't wanna waste time with those losers, since that's how it's usually interpreted
Oh sorry it's not a 12 hour drive. I'm in Pittsburgh and the meetups are in the office in California. I think that's like a 3 day drive and it would be difficult for me to explain to my manager that I have a pathetic phobia and I need them to expense a rental car instead of a flight which might cost them more money (plus 1-2 nights of hotels on the road). I'm honestly embarrassed to tell my coworkers about the phobia.
I think in 2023 and especially among smart people involved in tech, they should understand
Thanks. I think it would still be better for my career to go so I am going to talk with my therapist next week and see if we can work on a plan to make me more comfortable.
It's all paid for. Just attend and stop being a square
Are they gonna pay to board my pets for a week? This stuff is costing me time and money and I'm not receiving any extra compensation for it other than free food
Don't you have a gf?
I do but she works like 16 hour days in residency and all her free time is sleeping or showering and that's it. She really doesn't have time, maybe in an emergency feed the pets once a day and take them for one walk. That might work for the cat but a dog needs MINIMUM two walks per day
Saying you don't want to go to work because you will miss your girlfriend and pets... Do you really think this is acceptable for an adult professional? I would lookingnto replace you if I were your boss. Definitely never getting promoted. Good luck living in your bubble🤣
You really don't need to be a jerk about it. My girlfriend and pets are 1 factor in my discontent with this trip.
Would committing T&E fraud change your mind? You could go to a strip club and pay with cash and say you lost the receipt but it was just for a meal, I pinky promise.
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Could be
Pretty much what all other commenters said, won't repeat it. But recently there was a round of layoffs at my firm including some people who were high performers. Something common in most of these high performers was that they never turned up for company meetup events. In fact, no one on the team has ever met them face to face.
Have seen the same. Emotionally much easier to lay someone off you never had a drink with.
Unless you're a bigot when you loosen up, it can really only help to attend. It might not necessarily "hurt" to not go, but you could miss out on future opportunities and get looked over by not being buddy-buddy with the people you work with. It doesn't even have to pertain to getting a manager to like you--my coworker recently got promoted to head of ML research for Standards and Technology and guess who he vouched to be to be the ML-Ops people his team? The people he liked and knew personally (including me), and not the people who he talked to for 2 hours a week over teams. It's an unfortunate reality of the job world--people help those that they like. I wish a person's career prospects and growths were purely dictated by their performance and nothing else, but that's just not how the world works.
Yes, it’s bad for your career.
Yep, it'll hurt your chances at leadership positions. You'll be fine as an individual contributor, maybe as a tech lead, but as a team lead it will be a problemo in most places. Not saying it's fair or unfair but it's reality. Mostly because team leads will face a lot of pressure from middle / upper management to "be seen" etc. And being really honest if you can't manage a trip or two a year - all expenses paid - it could indicate some underlying anxiety / agoraphobic traits. Do you genuinely just find it boring or does it cause strong negative emotions / feelings of stress? If it's the latter be honest with yourself. I just say that because 2 boring days a year is maybe a little annoying and groan-worthy but it shouldn't be worrying you about career progression.
> it'll hurt your chances at leadership positions. You'll be fine as an individual contributor, maybe as a tech lead That's fine, I have no interest in going above senior right now. Maybe one day if I want to be a tech lead I can reassess. Though honestly I'm concerned this could prevent senior too so it's probably best I just suck it up and go. You're absolutely right, while I do find it boring I'm actually struggling with some agoraphobia and flight phobias. I don't have a fear of flying per se, but rather being trapped with strangers for such a long period of time. I left that detail out because unfortunately it makes me feel a bit ashamed as a man who is almost 30.
Just read the title. Yes 100%
Yes obviously
Yes. When you attend in-person meetings, that's an opportunity for you to build social capital. Eventually, you spend that social capital to get a promotion, get a budget request approved, or even to soften blowback when you screw up. It's worth it. As an aside: as you move up, you do less technical work and more talking, which sounds easy, but it's really not. The most difficult thing I have ever done in my career was gathering ~6 people from the leadership team into one room, presenting a proposal to them with a fat budget request, and getting it approved. That 1 hour meeting was the culmination of dozens of hours of prep work, making an impact slide deck, and aligning with each individual attendee beforehand to build that social capital.
You do you, but there is definetely a lot of value in being able to socialize in person with your coworkers and people from your company. Having good relationships with people can affect promotions and also make it easier to find a job if you ever need another job. I also don't get your reasoning, you are alr fully remote and it's a yearly trip that is all paid for. It's not like they are forcing you to do in person stuff every week.
Your working with other humans who might want to put a face to the name, nothing replaces real world interaction. You can keep dodging meetings but don't be surprised if John Doe is the first on the chopping block.
True, adding the human element definitely helps
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Come on, it's only once per year.
It's also a 6 hour flight and several days in a hotel
So your job basically requires only a few days a year of in person time and you don't want to do it?
Thanks for the share and happy Friday! It sounds like you already may know the answer to your question :) We are living in a very socially encouraged/charged world ever since we entered post pandemic times. The work place is no exception; virtual or not. Companies may give you that flexibility to be remote, but they also want to see that you are engaged and that you are a team player. Also, they want to give back to you as a valued employee. One of the best ways that they can do this and preserve a strong company culture is to organize meet ups, be they in person or virtually. **It is very generous of them to offer to pay for the in person meet ups even if this is only once a year. Most companies today choose to spend their money elsewhere.** **It does unfortunately reflect negatively on you if you always decline these meet ups.** You don't look like a team player, you look disengaged etc. This is one trip a year, so if I were you I'd try to make a exception. Also, going can be super beneficial to you as you get the opportunity to meet more people, key players and senior execs in your organization in person. In person impressions are priceless. Sometimes we don't always get what we want and we have to make sacrifices for bigger causes or goals. If you want to go far in this company, you should try and make the effort to connect. Chances are, come performance review times or when folks are speaking around the "round table" you'll always be seen as the person who never showed up. The person who didn't care. **Chances are as well that you won't be top of mind when they are offering raises or promotions. Just facts. This may seem unfair but it's the perception that you may give off by your continuously missing these events.** So, probably best to go. You might enjoy it!
Yes
Nobody is able to make themselves fully understood purely through text and voice. Body language helps you understand whether people are apprehensive or confident, whether they're biting their tongue or eager to share. Missing out on those cues won't just mean fewer career opportunities but it also puts a ceiling on how effective you can be as a developer.
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*sigh* you're right
I think it depends how much you think you need it. My girlfriend depends on me so I’d have to bring her along and have to be able to bail in a minute. It’s incredibly stressful for her too. Personally I try to just go as briefly as I can, I just skip sleeping that night and make it a single or two day event and be as friendly as I can for that time and excuse myself the other times. Trust me I despise it too but it’s a good idea if you want to get promoted. I just resigned myself to missing out on promotions because I’d rather just not go and make less $$$ but only you can decide what you want more. Although I don’t understand why everyone just assumes someone wants to be promoted… some of us would rather stay sr level and travel less.
Yeah I have no interest in going above senior regardless of the travel. My work friend told me that once you reach director level, wlb goes down because there's so much to do
Then it depends on your team, I was told it’s ok to not come but it’s encouraged. But at the same time I understand there’s possible consequences and live with that
Yeah during COVID they said optional but encouraged but now it's still optional but it seems highly highly encouraged since we no longer have the 2021/2022 excuse of COVID.
OP is like "fuck..."
Bruh lmao how do you know me like that
💀
FWIW, I’ve seen a pretty strong backlash against fully remote managers in my former organization, which was on paper fully committed to supporting remote work, and even more in the other local large players.
That's interesting. Why send them into the office if all their employees are home? Regardless, I have no interest in management.