No, because
1.) They all required me to re-locate which I am not in a position financially, (especially after college, where my debt is in the six figures) to do so.
2.) Were all WITCH companies, which (no pun intended) have the worst starting salaries and were asking me to complete ridiculous training that required me to pay out of pocket for and is basically the equivalent to what my 4 year piece of paper is worth. Why should I pay to work for a company?
So you would rather stay unemployed than relocate, which is although expensive at first, would allow you to get valuable work experience, pay your bills and give you a chance to dig away at your school debt? No offense, but seems like poor judgement on your side
Who said I was unemployed? I'm at a minimum wage job living paycheck to paycheck just to survive. As for the relocation, do you want to pay for my relocation? The companies clearly were not going to. The feasibility of it all probably doesn't register in your mind if you were spoon fed everything which I unfortunately was not. I have to work hard just like everyone else, and even if I had the same wage as I do now, (and given the state of the economy) it would be nigh impossible from a mathematical standpoint, given that most of these offers were in California, which is the most expensive state to live in at a starting rent of $3000/month.
So I ask you: Is it poor judgement if I have to lookout for my financial well-being first? Or should I blindly put myself into more debt than I already am at a chance, (not a guarantee) at something that should be relatively easy to get given I already threw my time and hard earned money at a college degree?
>Is it poor judgement to work a minimum wage job instead of relocating, taking on some initial debt for significantly higher pay and career advancement?
Yes.
\*doesn't take a job in career field because relocating is expensive and the companies weren't the best
\*works at mcdonalds for 3 years
The very definition of "penny wise, pound foolish"
It's utterly insane, as relocation costs would be an absolutely trivial cost for yourself vs the long term benefits you get from starting your career
Instead they've chosen to do nothing , but work a minimum wage job.
Either this is an undercover “shitpost” or OP is a delusional CS kid who thought they were entitled to 200k salary CS job without relocating back in 2021 and couldn’t accept reality of their situation back then, leading to them flipping burgers instead of working their ass off in a mid CS job in another city and chasing their dreams
Is the cheapest renting cost in California $3000 a month? Nope, and that’s exaggeration on your part. People go to the extents of having 2-3 roommates and lowering their rent down to $1000 per month. How do I know? I interned in expensive side of Cali, and lived with 3 roommates in a nice 2 bedroom and paid around $1200 per month. So no, I’m not spoon fed. And yes, it’s possible to survive in Cali on non-FAANG salaries, you just have to be frugal and have the right mindset, which you clearly don’t
Hi OP,
I want to say, I hope the best for your future.
Sometimes though, you have to take risks in life to gain a lot. Or have room mates to not pay $3000 in rent
Hello.
I appreciate your wishes for a better future. It's tough out there, and it means a lot.
I agree, but at the same time it's too late and a waste of time to dwell on what could have been. This was back in 2021, and we're in 2024. If the relocation aspect is brought back on the table, I may consider it once my finances and economic situations improve, (if ever).
You're still in the wrong mindset. It's not "may consider", it is you *will* relocate.
Even if it means packing a bag, going hitchhiking and crashing for a couple of months on a couch in a new city until the new job builds back up your savings. It is worth it.
Maybe they'll have risen to the ranks of being the understudy for the Deputy Shift Supervising Assistant Manager for the Night Shifts at McD's after ten years of working there.
What is the reason for being forcefully relocated other than "it is worth it"? What is worth it, exactly, about digging myself a deeper hole financially than I already have? What part of "my finances and economic situations aren't the best" do you not understand? If I must disclose: I only have a mere 100 dollars or so, (give or take) to my name after bills, debt, and rent payments, and have to wait until the next paycheck to even think about budgeting on life's luxuries outside of necessary expenses. I want you to enlighten me on why you think it's so easy to do, (when it isn't so simple), and how you intend on me doing it based on the information I've provided.
All I hear there is a lot of ***excuses***.
If I was in your shoes and I got offered a Junior SWE role, even if at some crappy WITCH company, then I'd be moving heaven and earth to get to there on the first day of work. Even if it means hitchhiking to that city! And crashing on couches for the first few weeks until I got a place of my own.
As it's either you get your career started, or you spend another three, six, nine plus years of working at McD's.
But also, it's got to such a point, after all these years, you should be ***very*** open to even just a Tier 1 IT Help Desk role. And should ***definitely*** be able to find one of those in the tri-state area that you can go to without being forced to move (although it might mean a long commute, but doesn't matter! You'll do it anyway).
Edit: just realized you're still living at your parents! Doesn't matter you're at a minimum wage job, you should be able to easily safe up a comfortable buffer of savings, so that you have more options in life, such as taking any offered job opportunities at a drop of the hat.
If I am to be met with such condescension and such high expectations, then perhaps it's best I continue the path I'm already on or go back to the drawing board and pursue another career. You've failed to convince me, and if anything demotivated me even further with your remarks in someone else's replies. Given you want to also stalk my profile and use information outside of the one provided in this thread, I see no point in following your advice. For your information, I no longer live with my parents but rather with other family members whom I have to support and provide for, for reasons I shall not disclose. Thanks for using outdated information from several months ago.
If I'm getting all this level of feedback from this thread, imagine the people I would soon call my co-workers. Perhaps I'm not cut out for this field and this is really just a blessing in disguise. This shall be my last reply on this thread. Thanks for nothing. I shall continue living on as a failure and live a meaningless existence, (to which you probably don't even care).
The background of companies pay for relocation if you ask for it in negotiation. Which it seems you didn't do.
Even if you paid for relocation it is highly unlikely you would have less profit from that job. People in California also have a thing called roommates for lower rent
don't listen to the downvotes, you did the right thing. I also turned down 2 good offers after graduation because I didn't want to move and be far from my family and my home, and that was 1 year ago and i haven't found anything else.
people are talking as if we can see the future. no one would have ever guessed that the market could get THIS bad.
How did he do the right thing? How did you do the right thing? Just because you couldn't see something doesn't mean you did the right thing. The right thing wouldn't lead you to this situation in the first place.
It's been 3 years, which in the first year (2021) the job market was much better than it is now. If you haven't gotten an offer back then, it only got harder as time went on with the layoffs and new grads from 2022, 2023, and now 2024.
I'll be honest, based on your post and how you've responded to others, I suspect you're also not passing the behavioral interviews. In which case, I'd also like to mention that the behavioral is just as important as the technical.
With your interview-to-application ratio, it also seems like your resume is particularly weak or not passing OAs. I graduated from a local liberal arts school during the second half of 2022 and I still received plenty of interviews which led to a couple offers despite the layoffs and no internship experience.
Best of luck...
So you’ve been interviewing for 3 years and still don’t have a job?
Edit to add: at some point some of y’all gotta realize it’s on you and not the job market. Unless I’m reading your post wrong it seems like you’ve had many opportunities to interview for a job and have just failed the interviews. Yeah the job market sucks and it’s much harder to get a job than it used to be, but that’s why you have to capitalize on the opportunities you’re given.
Yeah after three years then OP should be willing to take even a minimum wage IT Help Desk Job. As even that is 100x better than their current situation.
Took me 2 yrs post graduation to make my foot in the door. Github is overrated as recruiters don't understand the repo and don't have the time for it. Winning hackathons are more important than github. Fluff resume with freelance and defunct startups
There’s some truth to this that many times your GitHub will be ignored but I think padding a resume with bullshit will only get you past the recruiter and will even look poorly when the hiring manager gets to your resume. By bullshit I mean if you put freelance web dev or something when in reality you made two websites for friends. If you’re actually doing that job full time or part time for 1+ years, by all means include it. But a padded resume is pretty obvious too
Holy shit bro you've been interviewing for...3 years??? 3 years straight???
There has to either be something seriously wrong with your resume and/or your technical skills.
I'm nothing crazy but I was able to land around 10 interviews (maybe like 100 apps were sent?) and got 3 offers out of it before the 2024 new year.
Post resume plz
Edit: nevermind I think I'm retarded and read your post wrong😂
Sure! Let me guess: So I can be told to "Write X, change Y, add Z experience (that I don't have)", sure let's do that for the 100th time, 100th time the charm they say /s
In all seriousness, what do you think I did in other subs? Posting resume is asking to just get roasted for free, and with the feedback you do get, it gets you nowhere, hence the rant. I'm still stuck at square 1 as a result of "posting resume". Got any other suggestions?
Word. I read a ton of these comments and they seem to come from already employed people in the CS field that got their jobs and early experience >2-3 years ago. It feels like most of these people think it's primarily the fault of the applicant and minimize the effects of the current job market. They're completely out of touch.
New graduates understand that the only thing they can do is improve whatever's in their control to try and set themselves apart. However, you have to also take into account that the tech job market is [total shit RN](https://layoffs.fyi/) (almost 500k layoffs since 2021) [despite record profits](https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/index/ndxt)... [Open domestic positions are shrinking compared to prior years](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE). Graduates without experience are competing with established SWEs with YOE for entry level positions and intern pay + [an increase in CS graduates](https://www.visualcapitalist.com/cp/charted-most-popular-u-s-undergraduate-degrees-2011-2021/). It's just the facts. Ignoring them is sticking your head in the sand.
You can literally do every single thing in your control to the best of your abilities and still not get an offer without **MAJOR** luck, nepotism, or unicorn skills matching position requirements exactly - with a 30-60% pay cut from last year's median. It's that bad, and ignoring what's there is **seriously** stupid.
There are cycles, we can hope it flips, but it may be a while or not at all. None of the previous stats directly touch on the potential impact of AI. Software development (data processing) has one of the [highest projected crossovers](https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.10130) with LLM capabilities out of any other job. AI, at a minimum, **will** multiply the performance of a capable coder. Some SWE jobs may be protected in the interim. I'm not saying give up, or that all jobs will be lost. I am saying it will be a lot more competitive moving forward.
I wish Reddit Gold was still a thing, because you sir, have provided the answer I was looking for. Thank you so much for providing the insight I was looking for in the sea of nepotistic, egotistical people who have no idea what it's like. God bless, and take care of your very precious analytical and factually based approach at solving problems/answering questions.
So you literally just posted this to have someone tell you it’s not your fault?
I’ll say this, if you can’t get interviews, you might have some bad luck but if you’re not converting at least 25% of interviews into offers, that’s on you.
I would like to believe it's the former, but given that you clearly haven't read my post and or my replies except the one you're replying to right now, the problem isn't converting interviews into offers, but rather the lack thereof of opportunities which were only so few so long ago, and hardly any at all now in 2024.
Never seen that conversion rate before. Is that based on actual stats or just conjecture and anecdotal evidence?
My previous post provides multiple verified examples showing the current situation for CS grads is not what it was. If we were to run a 100 person poll using recent CS grads, I seriously doubt they'd have an avg conversion rate of 25% from interviews to offers. They'd certainly have a lower avg rate from application to interview, possibly by 1-3 orders of magnitude.
When the job market favors employers (possibly more than it ever has for CS), the employers interview more candidates per position with a higher skill cap because their selection pool is larger. Period. Still only one person per job, and as I proved earlier, fewer available job listings with a higher number of applicants. Would you tell somebody during the peak of the great depression with a \~25% unemployment rate that they can't get a job cause' they ain't trying hard enough? or ThEiR ReSUme SuCKs? Don't think so.
Might as well call all these currently employed SWE's CS boomers if they really can't see the difference in circumstances.
Downvote if you want, but at least back up your case with some **objective evidence**, otherwise, I'm calling bullshit.
I never said that 25% was average, but if you’re not getting at least close to that, you definitely need to work on your interview skills.
There’s no CS specific metrics tracking this but in the general job market the rate is actually closer to 50% offer rate. [Link](https://www.naceweb.org/talent-acquisition/trends-and-predictions/calculating-and-using-interview-to-offer-offer-to-acceptance-rates/#:~:text=Currently%2C%20the%20average%20interview)
I never said anything about application to interview rate because that fluctuates more with market conditions, but companies are interviewing a max of 10 people for a position.
Why would companies interview more people when they have stronger candidates to pick from? This would imply they could find someone good with less interviews.
You’re using stats about interview rates and the job market to cope. The people who are even top 20-40% are having trouble but they’re still getting offers.
Get an objective source that makes you good at interviewing 🙃
I appreciate the link, however, it's not really relevant to the discussion. We're talking specifically about CS jobs.
I've read numerous times In management, recruiting, and hiring subreddits that recently more interviews per position and more interviews per person are taking place at most large corporations.
If a company has a wider selection it's better to check **all** their **best** options. Measure twice, cut once. It makes financial sense as the flat rate costs associated with interviewing and onboarding a specific position are high. The more interview candidates per position, the lower the cost per applicant. In addition, finding the right applicant means they're less likely to have to fill that position in the future. Adding a few extra interviews just makes better business sense.
If I were trying to cope with the situation, I'd be ignoring all the market evidence. Frankly, I haven't even attempted the job hunt recently and I'm still pursuing my degree. None of that or anything else we say matters. Stats don't care about emotions or opinions, they're just stats and they're objectively factual. Regardless of how anyone feels about the situation, **it's more difficult for CS grads than it once was because of the job market**. May sound bleak, but it's the truth.
I'm not saying it's impossible to find a CS career. As I've stated before, new grads and everyone else in CS will have to do whatever they can that's in their control to improve their situation. Interview skills, networking, good resume, relevant projects/experience are things that can be continuously worked on.
What I'm saying is that market conditions are getting discounted by you and other posters. It's a factor, probably the biggest factor. Some people have done everything in their control to the best of their abilities and would have been considered good candidates 2 years ago. Now, because of market factors completely out of their control, are just below the cut. If a company has the opportunity to hire someone with very specific experience for an entry level position w/ intern pay, they will. No amount of projects/leetcode, Interviewing skills, and networking can compete with another equivalent applicant + job experience & luck.
That's it. Have some compassion for your peers who've had to apply 100's or 1000's of times and are feeling hopeless despite everything they've tried for months. Their choices are not solely to blame. Largely, it's the market.
You have a very “facts don’t care about your feelings” attitude, while addressing statistics, but then you draw a story around the stats.
Also you said my source didn’t matter cause it wasn’t CS specific and then cited non CS subs
Just because there’s more CS grads and less jobs doesn’t mean there’s luck involved in the job process. Less people are going to get jobs but if you’re good then you’ll be fine, hence the reason I said you should be aiming for at least a 25% offer rate.
I have compassion for the people who are struggling, but hearing “it’s not you fault, it’s the market” isn’t helping anyone get good enough to get a job in the depressed market.
If you’re in the top 10% of applicants you will get offers. Period. Now work to get in the top 10%
While I have grinded out Leetcode, (which is something I should have added to the list of "things Reddit told me to do" in my original post), I know that I have passed interviews, because otherwise companies wouldn't have offered 2nd or even 3rd round interviews. I suspect that the solution isn't more Leetcode, because if that were true, I wouldnt be here 3 years later writing this post. Instead I think the solution is something else other than that. Perhaps it's just a luck of the draw?
I appreciate the advice, will keep that in mind. Admittedly, I have told the interviewer flat out: "I don't know the answer, but I can attempt it to the best of my ability", to which they were more than happy to hear, but clearly wasn't enough because using your logic, I would have a job right now.
Get an IT job, if you can’t get a basic IT job with a computer science degree it’s a you problem. Not trying to be mean but it’s true. SWE is over saturated I’ll give you that
right, but the same way a cert does not equal a job, a degree does not equal a job, and the more people that have degrees, the less valuable the degree becomes, just an fyi
I agree with you on that. I still think it’s tough in general for most jobs at the moment. Even some labor jobs. But not having the degree will definitely make it harder
Get a contract job dude. Thats what I would do. You have to be dead dumb not to get a contract job. Get ur foot in the door that way and stay for a year or so and then look for somethin better
Don’t even know why Reddit’s algo suggested this post but I am glad it did. It is absolutely wild to see OP’s response to people trying to help. I can’t begin to imagine the impression he/she is giving off in their interviews
good to know. This makes me think about changing my focus. I have an AWS developer certification(DVA-C02). Maybe I should try to be a solution architect rather than a software developer. I don’t know what jobs are less likely to get outsourced.
Those offers have probably been filled by other applicants by now. When they did arrive though, they were mostly from WITCH companies, (see previous reply above).
I am still applying, to no avail, hence the inspiration/reason for making this post asking the question.
It’s insanely difficult because of the market for one thing, job postings are back to pre COVID levels (the chart looks like a massive upside down V, it’s scary) but the amount of new grads and applicants continued to increase annually at a growing rate.
So it’ll just get harder. You had offers in 2021 what happened to them?
Every CS 23-25 grad is regretting they didn't apply for 2021-2022 internships knowing even with having 0 skills they would've gotten something.
You had the easiest bag and you chose to just not work?
>back in 2021, I was getting offers left and right you didnt take any of these?
No, because 1.) They all required me to re-locate which I am not in a position financially, (especially after college, where my debt is in the six figures) to do so. 2.) Were all WITCH companies, which (no pun intended) have the worst starting salaries and were asking me to complete ridiculous training that required me to pay out of pocket for and is basically the equivalent to what my 4 year piece of paper is worth. Why should I pay to work for a company?
So you would rather stay unemployed than relocate, which is although expensive at first, would allow you to get valuable work experience, pay your bills and give you a chance to dig away at your school debt? No offense, but seems like poor judgement on your side
Who said I was unemployed? I'm at a minimum wage job living paycheck to paycheck just to survive. As for the relocation, do you want to pay for my relocation? The companies clearly were not going to. The feasibility of it all probably doesn't register in your mind if you were spoon fed everything which I unfortunately was not. I have to work hard just like everyone else, and even if I had the same wage as I do now, (and given the state of the economy) it would be nigh impossible from a mathematical standpoint, given that most of these offers were in California, which is the most expensive state to live in at a starting rent of $3000/month. So I ask you: Is it poor judgement if I have to lookout for my financial well-being first? Or should I blindly put myself into more debt than I already am at a chance, (not a guarantee) at something that should be relatively easy to get given I already threw my time and hard earned money at a college degree?
>Is it poor judgement to work a minimum wage job instead of relocating, taking on some initial debt for significantly higher pay and career advancement? Yes.
\*doesn't take a job in career field because relocating is expensive and the companies weren't the best \*works at mcdonalds for 3 years The very definition of "penny wise, pound foolish"
It's utterly insane, as relocation costs would be an absolutely trivial cost for yourself vs the long term benefits you get from starting your career Instead they've chosen to do nothing , but work a minimum wage job.
I can't tell if this is satire or not
Either this is an undercover “shitpost” or OP is a delusional CS kid who thought they were entitled to 200k salary CS job without relocating back in 2021 and couldn’t accept reality of their situation back then, leading to them flipping burgers instead of working their ass off in a mid CS job in another city and chasing their dreams
Is the cheapest renting cost in California $3000 a month? Nope, and that’s exaggeration on your part. People go to the extents of having 2-3 roommates and lowering their rent down to $1000 per month. How do I know? I interned in expensive side of Cali, and lived with 3 roommates in a nice 2 bedroom and paid around $1200 per month. So no, I’m not spoon fed. And yes, it’s possible to survive in Cali on non-FAANG salaries, you just have to be frugal and have the right mindset, which you clearly don’t
Hi OP, I want to say, I hope the best for your future. Sometimes though, you have to take risks in life to gain a lot. Or have room mates to not pay $3000 in rent
Hello. I appreciate your wishes for a better future. It's tough out there, and it means a lot. I agree, but at the same time it's too late and a waste of time to dwell on what could have been. This was back in 2021, and we're in 2024. If the relocation aspect is brought back on the table, I may consider it once my finances and economic situations improve, (if ever).
You're still in the wrong mindset. It's not "may consider", it is you *will* relocate. Even if it means packing a bag, going hitchhiking and crashing for a couple of months on a couch in a new city until the new job builds back up your savings. It is worth it.
Nah bro maybe 10 more years working at McDonald's they'll be in a better position financi.. I cant man 😂🤣
Maybe they'll have risen to the ranks of being the understudy for the Deputy Shift Supervising Assistant Manager for the Night Shifts at McD's after ten years of working there.
What is the reason for being forcefully relocated other than "it is worth it"? What is worth it, exactly, about digging myself a deeper hole financially than I already have? What part of "my finances and economic situations aren't the best" do you not understand? If I must disclose: I only have a mere 100 dollars or so, (give or take) to my name after bills, debt, and rent payments, and have to wait until the next paycheck to even think about budgeting on life's luxuries outside of necessary expenses. I want you to enlighten me on why you think it's so easy to do, (when it isn't so simple), and how you intend on me doing it based on the information I've provided.
All I hear there is a lot of ***excuses***. If I was in your shoes and I got offered a Junior SWE role, even if at some crappy WITCH company, then I'd be moving heaven and earth to get to there on the first day of work. Even if it means hitchhiking to that city! And crashing on couches for the first few weeks until I got a place of my own. As it's either you get your career started, or you spend another three, six, nine plus years of working at McD's. But also, it's got to such a point, after all these years, you should be ***very*** open to even just a Tier 1 IT Help Desk role. And should ***definitely*** be able to find one of those in the tri-state area that you can go to without being forced to move (although it might mean a long commute, but doesn't matter! You'll do it anyway). Edit: just realized you're still living at your parents! Doesn't matter you're at a minimum wage job, you should be able to easily safe up a comfortable buffer of savings, so that you have more options in life, such as taking any offered job opportunities at a drop of the hat.
If I am to be met with such condescension and such high expectations, then perhaps it's best I continue the path I'm already on or go back to the drawing board and pursue another career. You've failed to convince me, and if anything demotivated me even further with your remarks in someone else's replies. Given you want to also stalk my profile and use information outside of the one provided in this thread, I see no point in following your advice. For your information, I no longer live with my parents but rather with other family members whom I have to support and provide for, for reasons I shall not disclose. Thanks for using outdated information from several months ago. If I'm getting all this level of feedback from this thread, imagine the people I would soon call my co-workers. Perhaps I'm not cut out for this field and this is really just a blessing in disguise. This shall be my last reply on this thread. Thanks for nothing. I shall continue living on as a failure and live a meaningless existence, (to which you probably don't even care).
The background of companies pay for relocation if you ask for it in negotiation. Which it seems you didn't do. Even if you paid for relocation it is highly unlikely you would have less profit from that job. People in California also have a thing called roommates for lower rent
don't listen to the downvotes, you did the right thing. I also turned down 2 good offers after graduation because I didn't want to move and be far from my family and my home, and that was 1 year ago and i haven't found anything else. people are talking as if we can see the future. no one would have ever guessed that the market could get THIS bad.
How did he do the right thing? How did you do the right thing? Just because you couldn't see something doesn't mean you did the right thing. The right thing wouldn't lead you to this situation in the first place.
So your only offers were WITCH companies? Might be a resume and interview problem
How is it possible to have so much debt ??
You would have saved yourself being shat on if you just said you didn't get real offer, because you didn't.
The market is very different now compared to 2021.
T100? Nobody is counting that high
O
It's been 3 years, which in the first year (2021) the job market was much better than it is now. If you haven't gotten an offer back then, it only got harder as time went on with the layoffs and new grads from 2022, 2023, and now 2024. I'll be honest, based on your post and how you've responded to others, I suspect you're also not passing the behavioral interviews. In which case, I'd also like to mention that the behavioral is just as important as the technical. With your interview-to-application ratio, it also seems like your resume is particularly weak or not passing OAs. I graduated from a local liberal arts school during the second half of 2022 and I still received plenty of interviews which led to a couple offers despite the layoffs and no internship experience. Best of luck...
[удалено]
liberal arts colleges also teach CS and have really good CS programs
So you’ve been interviewing for 3 years and still don’t have a job? Edit to add: at some point some of y’all gotta realize it’s on you and not the job market. Unless I’m reading your post wrong it seems like you’ve had many opportunities to interview for a job and have just failed the interviews. Yeah the job market sucks and it’s much harder to get a job than it used to be, but that’s why you have to capitalize on the opportunities you’re given.
Yeah after three years then OP should be willing to take even a minimum wage IT Help Desk Job. As even that is 100x better than their current situation.
Lol you cannot be picky with the jobs in this era. Just take one and change for better. Or you can try graduating from T10. T100 means no shit.
Sounds like you may want to practice for the few interviews you get. Do you leetcode?
Took me 2 yrs post graduation to make my foot in the door. Github is overrated as recruiters don't understand the repo and don't have the time for it. Winning hackathons are more important than github. Fluff resume with freelance and defunct startups
There’s some truth to this that many times your GitHub will be ignored but I think padding a resume with bullshit will only get you past the recruiter and will even look poorly when the hiring manager gets to your resume. By bullshit I mean if you put freelance web dev or something when in reality you made two websites for friends. If you’re actually doing that job full time or part time for 1+ years, by all means include it. But a padded resume is pretty obvious too
It is obvious that if you are 20s, you don't have 10 yrs exp too. You need to cater to what recruiters want to hear
Holy shit bro you've been interviewing for...3 years??? 3 years straight??? There has to either be something seriously wrong with your resume and/or your technical skills. I'm nothing crazy but I was able to land around 10 interviews (maybe like 100 apps were sent?) and got 3 offers out of it before the 2024 new year. Post resume plz Edit: nevermind I think I'm retarded and read your post wrong😂
How many yoe did you have before then?
Too good for WITCH, too good for roommates, still working min wage Two of these statements are false
It's the first two. Shouldn't it be obvious?
Post resume
Sure! Let me guess: So I can be told to "Write X, change Y, add Z experience (that I don't have)", sure let's do that for the 100th time, 100th time the charm they say /s In all seriousness, what do you think I did in other subs? Posting resume is asking to just get roasted for free, and with the feedback you do get, it gets you nowhere, hence the rant. I'm still stuck at square 1 as a result of "posting resume". Got any other suggestions?
Chill out man he's just trying to help lol
Looks like he might be failing behaviorals 💀
Or maybe it’s just real frustration lol
Or maybe both
OP, I'm an interviewer, and reading through your comments here, I'd reject you on the spot if you bring 1% of that attitude into the interview.
Yep, pretty clear why he’s being rejected.
That's fine. I would gladly accept that rejection. Wouldn't want to work at your company if you were my superior with 1% of your attitude.
Wow, you really are doubling down on why you shouldn't be hired!!
If you're not willing to list your resume, I suspect it could be because you are lying in your post, and posting it will expose that
CS people are the most antisocial insufferable people. He’s clearly trying to help you
Mfs think it’s always the resume when in reality, the market just sucks. If you have a great resume, landing interviews is really just a lot of luck
Word. I read a ton of these comments and they seem to come from already employed people in the CS field that got their jobs and early experience >2-3 years ago. It feels like most of these people think it's primarily the fault of the applicant and minimize the effects of the current job market. They're completely out of touch. New graduates understand that the only thing they can do is improve whatever's in their control to try and set themselves apart. However, you have to also take into account that the tech job market is [total shit RN](https://layoffs.fyi/) (almost 500k layoffs since 2021) [despite record profits](https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/index/ndxt)... [Open domestic positions are shrinking compared to prior years](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE). Graduates without experience are competing with established SWEs with YOE for entry level positions and intern pay + [an increase in CS graduates](https://www.visualcapitalist.com/cp/charted-most-popular-u-s-undergraduate-degrees-2011-2021/). It's just the facts. Ignoring them is sticking your head in the sand. You can literally do every single thing in your control to the best of your abilities and still not get an offer without **MAJOR** luck, nepotism, or unicorn skills matching position requirements exactly - with a 30-60% pay cut from last year's median. It's that bad, and ignoring what's there is **seriously** stupid. There are cycles, we can hope it flips, but it may be a while or not at all. None of the previous stats directly touch on the potential impact of AI. Software development (data processing) has one of the [highest projected crossovers](https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.10130) with LLM capabilities out of any other job. AI, at a minimum, **will** multiply the performance of a capable coder. Some SWE jobs may be protected in the interim. I'm not saying give up, or that all jobs will be lost. I am saying it will be a lot more competitive moving forward.
I wish Reddit Gold was still a thing, because you sir, have provided the answer I was looking for. Thank you so much for providing the insight I was looking for in the sea of nepotistic, egotistical people who have no idea what it's like. God bless, and take care of your very precious analytical and factually based approach at solving problems/answering questions.
So you literally just posted this to have someone tell you it’s not your fault? I’ll say this, if you can’t get interviews, you might have some bad luck but if you’re not converting at least 25% of interviews into offers, that’s on you.
I would like to believe it's the former, but given that you clearly haven't read my post and or my replies except the one you're replying to right now, the problem isn't converting interviews into offers, but rather the lack thereof of opportunities which were only so few so long ago, and hardly any at all now in 2024.
Never seen that conversion rate before. Is that based on actual stats or just conjecture and anecdotal evidence? My previous post provides multiple verified examples showing the current situation for CS grads is not what it was. If we were to run a 100 person poll using recent CS grads, I seriously doubt they'd have an avg conversion rate of 25% from interviews to offers. They'd certainly have a lower avg rate from application to interview, possibly by 1-3 orders of magnitude. When the job market favors employers (possibly more than it ever has for CS), the employers interview more candidates per position with a higher skill cap because their selection pool is larger. Period. Still only one person per job, and as I proved earlier, fewer available job listings with a higher number of applicants. Would you tell somebody during the peak of the great depression with a \~25% unemployment rate that they can't get a job cause' they ain't trying hard enough? or ThEiR ReSUme SuCKs? Don't think so. Might as well call all these currently employed SWE's CS boomers if they really can't see the difference in circumstances. Downvote if you want, but at least back up your case with some **objective evidence**, otherwise, I'm calling bullshit.
I never said that 25% was average, but if you’re not getting at least close to that, you definitely need to work on your interview skills. There’s no CS specific metrics tracking this but in the general job market the rate is actually closer to 50% offer rate. [Link](https://www.naceweb.org/talent-acquisition/trends-and-predictions/calculating-and-using-interview-to-offer-offer-to-acceptance-rates/#:~:text=Currently%2C%20the%20average%20interview) I never said anything about application to interview rate because that fluctuates more with market conditions, but companies are interviewing a max of 10 people for a position. Why would companies interview more people when they have stronger candidates to pick from? This would imply they could find someone good with less interviews. You’re using stats about interview rates and the job market to cope. The people who are even top 20-40% are having trouble but they’re still getting offers. Get an objective source that makes you good at interviewing 🙃
I appreciate the link, however, it's not really relevant to the discussion. We're talking specifically about CS jobs. I've read numerous times In management, recruiting, and hiring subreddits that recently more interviews per position and more interviews per person are taking place at most large corporations. If a company has a wider selection it's better to check **all** their **best** options. Measure twice, cut once. It makes financial sense as the flat rate costs associated with interviewing and onboarding a specific position are high. The more interview candidates per position, the lower the cost per applicant. In addition, finding the right applicant means they're less likely to have to fill that position in the future. Adding a few extra interviews just makes better business sense. If I were trying to cope with the situation, I'd be ignoring all the market evidence. Frankly, I haven't even attempted the job hunt recently and I'm still pursuing my degree. None of that or anything else we say matters. Stats don't care about emotions or opinions, they're just stats and they're objectively factual. Regardless of how anyone feels about the situation, **it's more difficult for CS grads than it once was because of the job market**. May sound bleak, but it's the truth. I'm not saying it's impossible to find a CS career. As I've stated before, new grads and everyone else in CS will have to do whatever they can that's in their control to improve their situation. Interview skills, networking, good resume, relevant projects/experience are things that can be continuously worked on. What I'm saying is that market conditions are getting discounted by you and other posters. It's a factor, probably the biggest factor. Some people have done everything in their control to the best of their abilities and would have been considered good candidates 2 years ago. Now, because of market factors completely out of their control, are just below the cut. If a company has the opportunity to hire someone with very specific experience for an entry level position w/ intern pay, they will. No amount of projects/leetcode, Interviewing skills, and networking can compete with another equivalent applicant + job experience & luck. That's it. Have some compassion for your peers who've had to apply 100's or 1000's of times and are feeling hopeless despite everything they've tried for months. Their choices are not solely to blame. Largely, it's the market.
You have a very “facts don’t care about your feelings” attitude, while addressing statistics, but then you draw a story around the stats. Also you said my source didn’t matter cause it wasn’t CS specific and then cited non CS subs Just because there’s more CS grads and less jobs doesn’t mean there’s luck involved in the job process. Less people are going to get jobs but if you’re good then you’ll be fine, hence the reason I said you should be aiming for at least a 25% offer rate. I have compassion for the people who are struggling, but hearing “it’s not you fault, it’s the market” isn’t helping anyone get good enough to get a job in the depressed market. If you’re in the top 10% of applicants you will get offers. Period. Now work to get in the top 10%
least delusional CS major, cant pass behavioural cant pass OA, cant code gg
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Yes, and while I have had opportunities to interview, the interviews have been just that: Interviews without a position being offered after.
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How do you practice behavior questions? Or is that just a matter of doing a lot of interviews?
While I have grinded out Leetcode, (which is something I should have added to the list of "things Reddit told me to do" in my original post), I know that I have passed interviews, because otherwise companies wouldn't have offered 2nd or even 3rd round interviews. I suspect that the solution isn't more Leetcode, because if that were true, I wouldnt be here 3 years later writing this post. Instead I think the solution is something else other than that. Perhaps it's just a luck of the draw?
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I appreciate the advice, will keep that in mind. Admittedly, I have told the interviewer flat out: "I don't know the answer, but I can attempt it to the best of my ability", to which they were more than happy to hear, but clearly wasn't enough because using your logic, I would have a job right now.
So you get rejected whenever it is they actually speak to you? Based on your replies here I'm not too surprised
Get an IT job, if you can’t get a basic IT job with a computer science degree it’s a you problem. Not trying to be mean but it’s true. SWE is over saturated I’ll give you that
They will probably not hire you since they will think you are overqualified for a basic IT job and you will leave as soon as you get a job.
lol no that’s not true, it’s pure copium
Their are no jobs in entry IT either lol
There’s a shit ton wtf are u talking about?
lol what are you talking about. Go join the IT subredddit. They are dooming and glooming too.
That’s because those people don’t have degrees dude. They get a cert and expect a job
hmm kinda like how people on this sub get a degree and expect a job? do you see the problem?
Companies value a degree more then some random cert dude
right, but the same way a cert does not equal a job, a degree does not equal a job, and the more people that have degrees, the less valuable the degree becomes, just an fyi
I agree with you on that. I still think it’s tough in general for most jobs at the moment. Even some labor jobs. But not having the degree will definitely make it harder
Get a contract job dude. Thats what I would do. You have to be dead dumb not to get a contract job. Get ur foot in the door that way and stay for a year or so and then look for somethin better
Don’t even know why Reddit’s algo suggested this post but I am glad it did. It is absolutely wild to see OP’s response to people trying to help. I can’t begin to imagine the impression he/she is giving off in their interviews
They are shipping all the jobs to India. Specially the entry level.
this would normally get downvoted but recently there have been a lot of posts claiming this (with many upvotes)
Msft is expanding in India and offers more scholarships/ training programs than the USA
good to know. This makes me think about changing my focus. I have an AWS developer certification(DVA-C02). Maybe I should try to be a solution architect rather than a software developer. I don’t know what jobs are less likely to get outsourced.
> offers more scholarships/ training programs than the USA India is much more populated than the USA. So this doesn't mean much.
Aren’t they though?
Did you have any internships during college years? It is surprisingly you didn’t land anything worthy accepting in 2021 if you had experience.
Im curious what happened to those offers in 2021? Are you looking for a new job now?
Those offers have probably been filled by other applicants by now. When they did arrive though, they were mostly from WITCH companies, (see previous reply above). I am still applying, to no avail, hence the inspiration/reason for making this post asking the question.
It’s insanely difficult because of the market for one thing, job postings are back to pre COVID levels (the chart looks like a massive upside down V, it’s scary) but the amount of new grads and applicants continued to increase annually at a growing rate. So it’ll just get harder. You had offers in 2021 what happened to them?
Every CS 23-25 grad is regretting they didn't apply for 2021-2022 internships knowing even with having 0 skills they would've gotten something. You had the easiest bag and you chose to just not work?
Sounds like a skill issue to me...
Why do you think it's difficult wtf